Taipei Cycle Show Day 2 Randoms - Seeing Double
If you want to start a bicycle brand this catalog is a good place to start. Everything from open molds to something you dreamed up in shop class, it can be found here.
The Adrenaline Agent looks familiar. For some reason it makes me feel like riding a tech downhill line on it while howling like a banshee.
MacMahone has been around for several years and have used a variety of suspension platforms, but this is the first time I have seen this design on their bikes.
Astro makes carbon and aluminum frames for several international companies. They have had a version of this carbon downhill frame on display for several years.
Propain with one of the brightest bikes at the show. I am curious if this bike will glow in the dark.
This is the first time I have seen Taokas at the Taipei Cycle Show. They had several bikes on display using several different suspension designs.
At first glance I thought this was a simple single pivot, but Kinesis has something different going on here.
Here we go with neg props because I'm "continuing an old joke".
KHS's fancy new DH bike is just an Astro AFDHA.
^^ agreed 100%
for those of us, who work in the bike industry, its an "open" secret that most of the American, Canadian and European owned 'brands' are nothing but marketing / design offices
using off-shore vendors for actual product manufacturing (big brands have their own "people" on the factory floor overseeing QC) ; and imported using cargo-container focused distribution networks to the independant dealer or bike chain stores
some of the biggest 'brands' have their own domestic engineering staff and product designers, as well as "R & D" 'labs' on their domestic premises where they have expensive computer design systems, CNC, rapid prototype and welding / heat treatment equipment to allow the development of "skunk works" type equipment before it is redesigned for their offshore vendors to produce
these biggest brands also have a warranty department in-country which holds warranty stock to ensure a timely turn around for any consumers who suffer premature manufacturing defects; in contrast to the small brands who often rely on their vendor in Taiwan, China, Vietnam or Cambodia to ship a replacement warranty product to the bicycle retailer
the smaller brands will generally take an existing product from an off-shore vendor (hint: sourcing a vendor through "The Taiwanese Bicycle Guide" a.k.a. TBG) and either adapt it by small, elemental changes, or just have the product 'rebadged' with their graphic and colourway; the first example costs more, the second example has minimal cost penalties as long as quantities are sufficient
nothing wrong with what they are doing, except for the smokescreen of credibility the bike industry marketing often proposed
Unfortunately for consumers, that smokescreen creates quite a mark-up.
As for the smokescreen, manufacturers already know what their 2016 bikes will look like so I find all the "latest advances in technology" claims ridiculous haha.
There will always be a market for handmade/made in the USA/small company/boutique/etc. bikes from small, rider centric companies. The problem is that companies selling mass produced catalog bikes are hiding behind the price protection theyre afforded by these smaller companies and the inequity of information in the bicycle industry.
CRC is hopefully going to drive down prices for mass produced catalog bikes, which for the most part are great and well made, and allow smaller, boutique brands to further seperate themselves and continue to sell bikes as their value will be more apparent.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I feel that those china marketing franchises are greedy and we're not getting our money's worth when we purchase such a bike. This also goes for parts.
thank for your comments - its basically all down to a different business model
something to understand about the big brand companies (with off-shore manufacturing vendors), is that they have higher operating costs simply because they employ more domestic staff working on design / engineering, marketing / customer service / warranty to support their dealer network. They have sponsored professional riders, sales reps. and regular promotions, this all costs money. To have their own people working at the vendor doing QC work costs money.
the smaller brands have a lower cost, scaled down operation with few staff and amateur sponsored (flow) riders, because that is what their business supports. They rarely have their own people working in QC at their vendor; its often a guy employed by the vendor, and paid by the vendor, who is not going to flag up any QC concerns because his loyalty is to his employer, not his client
For example? Banshee Bikes. Its literally Keith, Jay and a couple of guys running that company. They have a vendor in Taiwan (Pacific Cycles) which fabricates Keith's designs. When I was working for a Banshee distrib. we had horrible QC problems with frames we received from Taiwan, because they did not have the resources to pay for a level of QC which met Keith's exacting standards (which as it should be)
more recently? they have re-organised their resources to solve this issue. For a small company, the first they may know of any QC issues is when their distrib. starts calling after receiving a drop of frames direct from the vendor, and find they cannot mount a chain guide because the ISCG holes do not match the ISCG pattern, or the rear tire is jammed solid against the chainstay because the frame is poorly aligned!
another business model is the small brand, domestic manufacturer.
I can think of 2 companies I worked for through their UK distrib:-
1. Ellsworth Bikes, 2. Devinci Bikes
1. Ellsworth was really a financial mess. some very talented staff left. manufacturing starting to move off-shore ("Glimpse" complete version of Epiphany, new CF frames coming from TW). Manufacturing plant split from parent company (sub-contractor business model). Lack of innovation, relying on "old glory", poor warranty support well documented on the internet forums.
2. Devinci Bikes a model of excellent domestic manufacturing, underpinned by "Bixi" and "Boris Bikes" (London) urban rental bike manufacturing business (which has suffered as Western Government cut back on spending for infrastructure projects). Newer models using CF frames coming from TW. Nothing but praise for Devinci, but a rarity in the bike business.
look how many "domestic" brands in the UK and USA, that previously manufactured domestically, have become nothing more than design/marketing offices with product development labs attached. All manufacturing moved off-shore.
in the UK? Brands like Claud Butler, Raleigh and Dawes were manufactured domestically until they failed to adapt, and simply reduced to selling property to recover capital, then moved to off-shore manufacturing with UK remaining as just design/marketing offices
I'm assuming that if you spend so much money to have more domestic staff working on design / engineering / marketing / customer service / warranty to support their dealer network / sponsored professional riders / sales reps / regular promotions it's because it is a proven business model that nets you more bike sales so more money in the end.
The thing I don't get though, is that if with that business model you cannot beat the price (by a significant margin) of smaller domestic brands who have higher manufacturing costs per bike and still deliver bikes of superior quality at a sustainable rate... it makes me believe the bigger company is either not selling their bikes as low as they could or their business model is inefficient in the end.
Devinci only manufacture the full-suspension aluminium-alloy frames and "Bixi" / "Boris Bike" (urban rental) frames in Quebec
their hardtails and carbon fibre have been made off-shore for some seasons.
They used to make the "Hucker" and other aluminium-alloy frames in Quebec, but they were not profitable
it takes almost as much time to manufacture a hardtail frame, as a full suspension frame (which is actually somewhat simpler because its a series of manufacturing jobs (front triangle, CNC rockers, rear stays, rear swingarm), which are then bolted together, and the FS sells at much higher price than the hardtail with extra profit from the outsourced rear suspension shock and bearings
your comment about the difference in pricing between big brand and small brands in interesting, the larger brands will always have higher operating costs domestically (which in terms of sales or support / manufacturing ratio, has a higher cost, than a small brand with a slightly higher manufacturing cost for off-shore labour, but much lower domestic labour and premises rental / rates costs for sales and support)
in essence, the bigger brands are easier to physically see or test ride in a show room, tend to have more stock availability throughout the season and definitely have more timely support when warranty issues arise (which they always do, at some point, with bicycles!¬)
I see this all over the place, for example, many cars use the MacPherson Strut suspension design, but you don't hear people crying that the underbody looks like a Ford Focus, likewise the Rack-and-Pinion steering.
I get the whole copyright thing, but once the patent is up, ultimately many of these experimental designs will die away in favour of the ones that work well, therefore a lot of bikes will use the Trek Session's design.
This is the byproduct of irresponsible outsourcing, our copyrights don't count over there and they can sell the frames they make for American/Canadian companies to anyone who they please, they do the designs in the first place!
They do their best not to break copyright laws.
or is it just the colour ?
Gosh, I just can't believe how many pepole can't get past the frame shape/color when they look at a bike...
I mean the CTM is actually a Summun (Mondraker) , the Kinesis looks awfully similar to the Nukeproof Scalp.
Its kind of interesting..
bike tyres are the same...... how many tyre companies are there? did you know there the vast majority of brands are made by a handful of singularly owned factories. vittorria/geax are the only large brand who make tyres only for themselves. Even the mighty maxxis tyres are made by cheng shin tyres
I personally think it's great. CRC is able to sell direct to consumers at a lower price point than the "traditional" brands.
Hopefully price pressure created by their new business model will force everyone to drop prices. As the market gets more efficient, prices are forced down.
"Brands" who buy frame designs from Taiwanese manufacturers and resell them for the same prices as a Trek or Giant are hiding behind the price protection they are afforded by the big brands. It's reverse market engineering.
I think what CRC is doing with Nukeproof is going to change the whole industry for the benefit of the consumer.
If you're saying that the Nukeproof's that CRC sells and all other catalog bikes are, "mediocre", I would have to disagree with you. I also think you are looking at this backwards.
These manufacturers are the ones who are really driving innovation. A company like CRC taking a design from a catalog, testing it, refining it and selling it direct to consumers is the definition of market innovation. The fact that World Cup level riders like Sam Hill are willing to risk life and limb on one is a testament to how innovative and good they are.
There are only so many suspension/frame designs out there and the innovation these days is really in strength and durability as well as the components...not in some ground breaking new suspension design.
When was the last time you saw some ground breaking new innovation in mountain bike suspension design? There hasn't really been one in quite a few years as companies subtley tweak and improve their existing designs. The innovations are in the shocks and components themselves.
90% of the people who purchase bikes have no idea what they're looking at and will continue to rely on bike shops due to the inequity of information available to them...this is what bike shops rely on other than the service end of it.
Think about the auto industry at the dealer level. If you're an informed buyer, you go into the dealership with more information than the sales person and know exactly what you're getting and exactly how much you should pay for it. You even know exactly what the dealer pays for the car. The inequity of information at the sales level of purchasing a car has disapeared.
The same thing will happen in the bike industry...but I'm sure your local shop will be fine.
as for innovation....other than material choice and drive system, i personally don't think there is going to be much gain anymore. but the way the market works will always mean new and different stuff coming out from Taiwan to keep consumerism up...i mean for gods sake how much better can toothpaste or bleach get since 1950....TV adverts would have you believe every year has seen an evolution with no bounds. I think it will come and go in waves of years.....for a while we will be buying cheap well priced well working bikes, then folk will start to want something different and unique and the likes of intense and yeti etc will become popular and on goes the cycle....pardon the pun........it will be interesting to see how the newer fork companies deal with the hugely overpriced (but lovely working) big 3
The difference is, Giant OWNS the factory...and several others.
They, and the other big boys also have R&D, rapid prototyping, and manufacturing facilities in the US as well. They aren't simply picking a frame, designed by someone else, out of a catalog and slapping their name on it.
The point is, there are many companies who basically do just that and are charging the same thing for their bikes as a Trek, Giant, or Specialized who put millions of dollars into R&D and prototyping. They have no overhead, do none of their own design work, don't own anything or any facilities, and are selling bikes they had very little input in for the same price as the big boys at collosal mark-ups. CRC is going to blow them out of the water by selling direct to consumers at a lower price making no apologies and creating no smoke screens about the design and source of their bikes.
It's the evolution of the industry my friend, try and keep up.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, so next time think for a second before you open your mouth.
I write three lines and you come back with an essay like a little spoilt girly bitch?
Take a step back and shut your pie hole.
Before jumping on your key board, do a bit of reasearch dummy, take a look at www.kinesis.com.tw
Giant dosent own the factory. They buy there framesets out a catalog like everyone else, look around the site and you'll find glorys all the way up to 2013 models.
Get a grip you adolesent 5 year old
Just b/c someone can compose complete sentences and formulate well articulated ideas, does not make them a, "spoilt girly bitch". I literally wrote that in about 30 seconds on my iPhone.
Giant does in fact own the largest bicycle production facilities in the world.
Kinesis does not produce Giant's bicycles...but I believe it was actually founded by a former Giant employee. But, they do manufacture frames for GT, Trek, & Kona amongst several others I'm sure.
Good guess though...throw some more shit at the wall and maybe you'll get something to stick.
...and congratulations on the obvious enormity of your success.
There is a rampant case of ignorance and prepubescent anger affecting PB...but don't let it scare you away.
www.pinkbike.com/news/Hyper-Cam-Zink-Edition-Now-Available-at-Walmart.html
C'mon without so vivd colors the bikes would look just boring and not attractive....
Cheers.
CTM Mons 20 = KHS
MacMahone = Commençal Supreme V3
Kinesis = Commençal Supreme v2
Mons = Mondraker
Kinesis = Turner DW-ish, it's NOT a single pivot.
Try again:
Adrenaline Agent = Banshee Legend
CTM Mons = KHS
Macmahone = Commençal Supreme V3
Astro = Some sort of Cubist/Bauhaus dog's breakfast
14MK-DH = Couldn't think of anything soooo... trek?
Propain = LEGO
Taokas = Chode
Kinesis = Commençal Supreme v2 + something else... not sure
Evil bikes staring a knock off of their design.
Not all bike makes do this outsourse and buy off the shelf. Many such as, Specialized, Trek, Santa Cruz at others do the design, engineer test and , R & D their new bikes in house. Check out the Specialized Skunk Works program, or the Trek design center in So Cal to see that they just don't order from a catalog and slap some stickers on them