Foes FFR DH Prototype Has Two-Stage Damper to Boost Negative Travel - Sea Otter 2014

Apr 11, 2014
by Richard Cunningham  

Foes Racing FFR Prototype 2014

Foes' FFR DH racer looks sharp, considering its intended role as a test mule for a novel extended-negative-travel system.



We got an up-close and personal look at designer Brent Foe's latest 27.5-inch-wheel DH design and it has a novel adaptation to its Cane Creek DBair damper that adds three inches of negative travel to the suspension. The new FFR uses a basic single pivot swingarm rear suspension that drives its Cane Creek shock through a seat-tube tunnel. Brent Foes then added a sturdy, one-inch-travel damper in-line with the push rod that drives the shock. The second damper device, says Foes, does not affect the suspension in compression, but when the Cane Creek shock extends its top-out bumper, the secondary damper will allow the rear wheel to drop down up to three inches more.

Foes Racing FFR Prototype 2014

A closer look shows the secondary damper which replaced the push-rod that drives the FFR's Cane Creek shock through the frame's seat tube tunnel. The black rod is the torque shaft for the floating rear brake.



The idea is to keep the rear tire in contact with the ground to maximize braking and cornering. The concept comes from off road moto-racing, where 60 percent or more of the vehicle's suspension travel is negative in order to maintain constant contact with the surface. (Quite the opposite of MTB suspension.) The FFR is a test bike to explore the possible advantages of a negative travel booster system and Brent outlined that he will be trying damped and undamped cartridges, as well as air-sprung and coil-sprung strategies.

Foes Racing FFR Prototype 2014

Foes is a believer in single-pivot swingarms that hinge well forward of the bottom bracket axle - it works. A look at Marzocchi's 27.5-inch fork and the FFR's floating rear brake.



Foes applied for a patent on the concept and will be testing the FFR throughout the racing season. The aluminum chassis uses a low-leverage 2.3:1 suspension ratio which delivers eight or nine inches of rear-wheel travel. A floating rear brake ensures that the bike's suspension will remain uncoupled from stopping forces and massive bearings as well as a ball-bearing "scissor" linkage are used to keep the tail of the bike rigid and tracking well. Up front, the FFR is armed with a Marzocchi prototype 27.5-inch fork that we should be seeing a lot of later this year. Brent says that the jury is out on whether the design will make it to production. The concept is valid, however, and even if the FFR does not show up next year in ts present form, in the worst case, the lessons learned will no doubt lead to a second-generation design that will fulfill the potential of an extended negative-travel rear suspension. - RC

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106 Comments
  • 58 1
 I like that Foes isn't afraid to try new things and also let them be seen. Too many companies hide their wild concepts from view. The theory behind this is very well proven in other sports. Actually VVP suspension sort of does this with the amount of sag they run, compared to others.
  • 12 27
flag tdoyle1995 (Apr 11, 2014 at 16:28) (Below Threshold)
 companies hide wild ideas prototype concepts until they are fully refined so they don't release a shit product to the public..
  • 14 8
 a company would't release a shit product to the market, Instead, they would rather invest in the actual trends e.g. 27.5, carbon everything... etc because its a safer bet, most companies are conservative, Foes is not.
  • 16 1
 Think of the auto industry. They hold several huge expensive events a year that showcase wild fantastical prototypes that in many cases don't work at all and may never see fruition. Having companies that do dream and showcase wild designs helps stimulate creativity and moves us forward. We'd still be riding hobby horses and driving steam powered cairrages if it weren't for out of the box experimentation.
  • 2 0
 I would love to try all these DH bikes at Whistler over a weekend...Original Sin, Freight train, A-line laps all day!!
  • 1 0
 Cannondale cira 00, NEXT!
  • 2 1
 That floating brake system looks DOPE. Reminds me of my 2007 Kona Coilair Supreme.
  • 51 0
 So it's like suspension... for your suspension? (YO DAWG)
  • 3 0
 Its like having an extra shock once your original shock runs out of down travel. I wonder how smoothly this all works and if you notice it in the air.
  • 10 0
 susception
  • 25 1
 Wow The "Mountain Cadillac" has arrived. This is plush!
  • 3 0
 That will up an already plush Hydro on Skyline trail.
  • 21 1
 Interesting concept. It would great to see just how much better it tracks thean conventional rear shocks.
  • 17 8
 Have they just invented sag ?
  • 8 1
 The nice thing hear is that this will be super sensitive, so the actual shock can be run stiff, for a super progressive feel
  • 2 4
 Just tune the linkage so you get a ton of sag, then make the spring curve progressive like the v10
  • 9 3
 having tonnes of sag doesn't work it really hurts the feel of the bike. This does not work like the 2stage, its one shock like a standard bike so it will feel the same I don't think it will be super sensitive as the sag point remains constant. Like most bikes this still only has its primary travel from its unloaded position it wont feel like running lots of sag because its not increasing sag, what its doing is once the first shock extends fully the secondary shock kicks in and allows the wheel to continue past its neutral point.

It will be super sensitive while its in the negative travel portion but you will only be riding in that when the first shock has fully extended and the second shock is extending out.

With a normal bike if you're off the bike and the bike lift off the ground the rear wheel will come up with the bike as the shock is unloaded and the suspension is already fully extended (if you run extra sag the bike still sits in the same spot with no load so the rear wheel will still come up with the bike as the shock is extended fully. this position is the same regardless of sag.

This bike though when you lift the wheel up the second shock allows the wheel to extend even lower. however the first shock of 9inch is the supporting shock. the bike is not siting 12inchs high. its 9inchs than the other shock allows the wheel to extend past the ground essentially.

Poor explanation haha but hopefully you can make sense of it.
  • 1 7
flag kleinblake (Apr 12, 2014 at 7:51) (Below Threshold)
 Not for VPP. My friend and I ride M9s at about 50% sag. It's so progressive we haven't even bottomed out
  • 6 0
 ^bullshit.
  • 9 2
 It's a prototype people! It's not for sale, its to test and prove theories. Not be lightweight, good looking or to drum up sale's. The final product that ends up for sale might look nothing like this. So everyone's criticisms are kinda pointless.
  • 9 0
 Reminds me of this.

p.vitalmtb.com/photos/stories/2012/12/19/full_Screen_shot_2012_12_19_at_12.36.17_PM.jpg?1355949485
  • 1 0
 dat xtr cranks... need them!
  • 2 0
 what bike is this?
  • 1 0
 Prototype Cannondale Gemini, 5 bar linkage!
  • 6 2
 i had multiple foes RS7, mono , mono2:1 , fly and hydro, but if Brent think it a good idea at lest is gona built one and ask racer to try it... not like compagnie that copy things and whant the nicess bike to be ride by pro.... and if it not working, ill try something difrent....He was a truck suspension GURU for all the Baja truck for nissan and toyota in the days!!!! so if you talk about négative travel , it rite there!!! Irace a lot in Quebec and canada last couple of year, and i always rode foes bike .. because it reliable , simple and realy effective with brake jack.. sure it was int the lightes bike... surely with a foes fork up front Smile but it never broke and i won a lot of race agains people with more light bike and latest thecnologie!! so i am no saying there the best bike and blabla bla, but there good bike and they work..... good rider will always do good or at lest ride good on a bike with a ok set up, but anyboby got there préference...it why there is so many compagnie with sommany nice bike and desing out there! in a word ( RIDE WHAT YOU LIKE AND DONT BE AFFAID WHAT OTHER RIDER THINK OF YOUR RIDE AND ANJOY)
  • 1 1
 Lucky you. Wish I could own some of those frames
  • 10 5
 The Dbair is hard enough to set up properly on a normal frame, but throw in a two stage damper system on the frame! That's ruckin fidiculous!
  • 4 0
 I've always liked how Foes just do their own thing. Their bikes are amazing. I wish they'd get back into the international DH scene! Full Kudos for thinking outside the box, looking forward to the finished product!
  • 2 0
 Just thought I'd mention that the floating brake does not "uncouple suspension and stopping forces." Braking force is induced where the wheel meets the ground, not at caliper. Citations even quote RC!

members.home.nl/vd.kraats/ligfiets/pa/pa53.html#FalseClaimsforFloatingBrakes

members.home.nl/vd.kraats/ligfiets/pa/pa52.html#BISL

members.home.nl/vd.kraats/ligfiets/pa/pa310.html#Braking
  • 4 0
 oh last time I saw a foes was in downhill domination on ps2..and this one is easy on the eyes! floating brake as well! quite rare unless I've just been blind
  • 1 1
 They are also on Downhill Supreme 1 & 2.
  • 3 1
 I remember like 15 years ago, one of my girlfriends older brothers had a foes dh bike and i thought it was the bees knees but it kind of died off.... Like said above, i haven't seen one in years
  • 3 0
 mmm, testing the water's again, sweet. I'm still in love with my F275...thank's Mr. FOES & the crew at Get In Gear Bicycles, that helped put it together over time...
  • 1 0
 I don't really get it. He's running a set-up with more than typical sag? I can't see why you need two dampers to do that. Is the second damper completely unsprung except for the internal charge to compensate for the volume change? How would that setup not be totally f*cked for jumping? O.o

Maybe it's beneficial to allow the wheel to drop but without a spring pushing it to resist throwing weight forward under braking & on steeps? I'm so f*ckin' lost right now. :s
  • 8 3
 $$$$
  • 3 0
 What he said
  • 1 0
 Surely you'd want the rear travel to match the front? Brakes wont work anyway if the force of the bike is lifting enough for the extra sag to open up. At full extension it would feel like you're on a steep xc bike.
  • 4 1
 I bet this would feel pretty strange at first but probably get used to it and see the advantages.
  • 2 0
 interesting design wonder how it will jump with that much negative suspension and how it affects the responsiveness , wonder how it would feel in heavy braking bump sections
  • 1 0
 I keep seeing new Foes prototype DH bikes every couple years. do they even sell any? weird timing, the last one never moved forward and now DH sales are a trickle, I'm kinda, hmmm whatever. seems irrelevant
  • 7 4
 i haven't seen a Foes bike in years
  • 1 0
 Many Hydros in the alps. Most are setup for max. travel, lots of sag and little pop for long tracks.
  • 4 1
 so many immature comments here. yikes!
  • 10 0
 HI, you must be new here. Welcome to pinkbike.
  • 1 0
 That is just such a smart piece of engineering. Much more interesting then a lot of the other innovations i've seen this year.
  • 4 1
 bring back the curnutt shock...... NOTTTTTT!!!!!!!!
  • 1 1
 That suspension is a mint idea, it's like when you get a flat tyre, you suspension feels amazing for about 5 seconds after because of the sag on it, that is what the second damper provides with no compromise
  • 1 0
 Awesome bike but the rear tire is going to fling mud right onto the second shock. I would still love to try this bike out.
  • 1 0
 similar to a 2 stage if it makes it to production it will be interesting how it compares to other bikes with 2 shocks.
  • 2 0
 The single pivot swing position looks spot on though
  • 3 1
 Cranks look super far towards the back of the bike to anyone else?
  • 5 3
 this brake bar like on the old stinky looks aweful and noisy
  • 4 2
 Foes have been using that for over 15 years.
  • 5 5
 time for a change maybe ? my opinion
  • 8 1
 Don't knock before you've tried it! It works incredibly well; plus most existing designs just try to incorporate the brake link principle into the linkage (fsr, dw, me astro etc) so the design is very much alive!
  • 2 3
 really ? it must be better than it was on the kona because it was so bad on them.
  • 4 0
 If yours was noisy it may have been loose or something, if the rotor rubs the pad vibration can carry through the brake arm a bit, this is very easily fixed with some anti-sieze on the ball joints of the arm and you will be back to silent running again... functionality-wise the performance is undeniable... as for looks, that is subjective, I think they look mean...
  • 2 0
 Don't have much noise either on my Iron Horse however this suspension design requires the floating brake.
  • 1 0
 My Gemini DH is a single pivot with a floating brake. works great with no noise
  • 4 4
 Interesting idea. Good to see old brands coming back...but the floating break is so 2005 and everyone's over the single pivots lol
  • 7 0
 Single pivot bikes have won world cup downhill three years running.........
  • 2 0
 Thank you brent for not trying to use your own fork on this bitch.
  • 2 1
 hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha,is that a brake therapy on there? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
  • 2 0
 anyone remember the karpiel apocalypse?
  • 2 0
 my friend still rides his with me and my 07 FOES Fly. Of course we are old goats on the mountain
  • 3 2
 The best of the best made in the USA.
  • 3 3
 Just like the Pivot... no mention of the wheel size in the title... no people talking out their ass in the comments.
  • 1 0
 Actually, I believe they did imply that it was 650b, "a look at Marzocchi's 27.5-inch fork", is kind of a giveaway.
  • 1 0
 And I typed that all by myself with my hands!
  • 1 0
 as i said dummy, "no mention of wheel size in the title".

It wasn't made blatantly clear that this bike was 650b right on the home page and, as a result, a lot less unfounded moaning has occurred.

And great job on the typing! you have a bright future ahead of you. Keep it up.
  • 1 0
 did not see a floter for a long time.....
  • 1 0
 Love the old school floating rear brake. Rad.
  • 1 0
 Looks like Foes aren't using Curnutt shocks anymore. Its a sad day.
  • 3 0
 I had a love/hate relationship with the Curnutt on my 06 FXR. There's a reason the sticker states, "Curnutt Racing Shocks" on the thing, it loves to go fast. The faster you go, the bigger the hit, the more plush it feels, but as with all platform shocks, small bump compliance is not the strong point of the Curnutt. Having previously owned a Heckler and Bullit also, I moved from the FXR to a VP-Free, and imo, VPP is far superior to single pivot in every way; it really hooks up when climbing, while it feels more active and super plush on the descent.
  • 1 0
 too bloody expensive to make for such short runs I reckon.
  • 1 1
 scott did this years ago didn't they
  • 1 0
 Looks very heavy
  • 1 2
 Won't jump well with that much sag
  • 4 7
 looks heavy.
  • 10 1
 heavy duty like a dump truck
  • 1 0
 Looks no heavier than the current foes Hydro.
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