I've seen millions of hours of video footage showing "cool" test labs, with forks strapped on dynos doing "200 races" in the span of 16 hours. One thing I never understood is, that if they're trying to replicate real-world conditions, why not have a dust-blowing/rock-throwing contraption in front of the fork?
One real DH race's worth of debris getting on those fork legs and down into those seals is equivalent to about 200 lab-condition "races."
Good point singletrackslayer. Even with textbook servicing my Fox forks have always had 'stanchion rub' within a year.
I would also suggest your machine torsions the 'hub' in multiple directions while spraying dirt and mud.
I want someone to invent a treadmill that changes camber and pitch. Then you program your favorite trails into it and rig it to your computer so you can practice all winter long.
You hear that Fox? The armchair engineers here at Pinkbike have a new assignment for you. You need more testing, specifically, "a dust-blowing/rock-throwing contraption in front of the fork."
@ singletrackslayer. Very good point, but probably the reason why such thing does not exist yet, is because test environment hast to be controllable. It is a very difficult to set up such system on which the tests are repeatable in the very same way. Still a good idea, and they could also add wet as well. However, on the end of the day it may just turn out that having this equipment would cost more than the real life tests conducted by their sponsored riders.
I also suggest to run test in low temperatures where all materials are shrunk and seals' wear is greater. So: a dust-blowing/rock-throwing contraption in front of the fork in freezing cold conditions
No reason they would have to do that at the same time as dyno test. But im sure fox knows that. They in fact check PB comments every day for tips on how to improve their suspension.
Ok just take my money... Again... I swear I'm going to buy it... Right now I'm like "no way... My 40 is very good, still nearly brand new, didn't have time to ride a lot lately... I'll keep it" But in like a year maximum, I'll want that fork and I'll buy it...
Victim of the consumption (? is that the word?) society!
Ive heard you will be able to send your existing Coil Sprung 40 into Fox and they can convert it to the new air system for you. Granted it may not be exactly 1 lb. lighter, im sure there will be some weight loss.
I will definitely be sending my set in. Why send it in for a service when you could send it for a complete overhaul?
Anyone know what's the earliest model year of 40's that would be able to be converted to air
Or if it will be all of them ??, would be great cus I can get like an rc2 for cheap and then convert them to air, being a light rider it'll be awesome as I find springs too hard to get the right feeling
Same for me, im running a black and should be on purple but also have a blue at home. I'd love to have more in between rates so i can change it on the fly to accommodate for changes in riding style.
But I'm still a big ti coil fan for the rear because of the moto look
This vid had everything- unneccessary slomo's, interviews with people I cant hear or understand and preview of a fork I will never own and has been running for two years thru secret back tent meetings. Air is definately the way of the future, have to be blind not to see that. Fox air gets a foul wind blowin and who knows where the secrect fork testing ends? Utah???? Europe??? Bedstuy do or die??? I guess we find out next year what they up to this year.
I'm surprised fox isn't pushing nitrogen tanks to ensure less o2 saturation of fluids. maybe that's a non issue with the bladder systems, but I would have expected to see it a while ago.
But in real world conditions you'd never get the 'same' dust on your fork maybe this is why fox's leak and eat their own stanchions
Had my 36's for 4months and got major stanchion wear and both seals have exploded and constantly pisses its oil out, and I'm not gonna lie it was on my commuting bike that i take on light downhill every few weeks.
Sort it out fox
Yeah, a lot of nice bikes under 2k without anywhere near the specs (or design) necessary for a fork like this.
Don't try to pull that "oh they're trying to take our money, woe is us the poor riders!!" spiel. There are amazing products that are pretty cheap that will be more than enough for what you need any day of the week. This isn't one of them. You want top tier? You pay top dollar. That's the way it is in EVERY sport. For top notch lacrosse gear I paid a ton, and when I played ice hockey and was a goalie, lol... you think mtb is expensive?
@cyrix: uh, yeah... MTB is the most expensive sport in the world. Aside from maybe auto racing and road cycling. Its definitely way more expensive than ANY ball sport.
Well honestly I was swiftly spending upwards of around 2.5K a year when I played goalie. Mountain biking has cost me far less than that a year. I wasn't trying to say hockey in general is more expensive than mountain biking, just that for my particular position I paid a boat load of cash that I had to work my teenage butt off for. If I played right wing or something I would have paid WAAAAAAY less. Sometimes I wish I did play some other position or sport during that time. Young me would have been just a little bit wealthy, and I could have gotten into mtb instead of waiting till I was 20.
All I can say about Rock Shox is: "Rock Shox sucks cocks".
I had to deal with 3 forks from RS and all of them were terrible- problems appeared on every ride. That is not strictly connected with the Boxxer line, but IMO if you can't make the simple 300$ fork that is only equipped with the rebound adjustment and (eventually) with lockout to work for at least one season (and I'm talking about season as a everyday ride to school and some trips on the weekends, no jumping, no downhill, no enduro, no racing etc.) it's a sign that your technology is a piece of crap and that's what in my opinion Rock Shox has to offer.
^ Exactly. You're making a generalization about a company after only trying their bottom of the barrel products? Cheaper stuff is made with plastic that breaks and not much adjustment. You move up in price and your going to get more durable, reliable, and functional products and get your moneys worth.
Dunno, my SX came with a Domain RC, it really sucks you know. It is the only RS I have ever ridden, but I really disliked it. After getting a marzo 66 the bike felt much better!
I'm talking about Rock Shox Tora to be specific and if all U Philosophs and FMB Pros could read carefuly, you might have a chance to find out that I didn't use them personally. One Tora was used by my mother and second one was i my GFs bike. I'd never buy a fork for a 300$ to my DH or DJ rig, but if somebody uses his bike few times a week for a few hours ride in forest which is generally on a flat terrain he surely doesn't need the 10k XC bike or 10k enduro machine. and that's my point, if U guys purchase for yourself a road bike for 10 grands just to get to school 5 miles away, that's good for U, but we all know that U don't need bike THAT expensive. tLAMA- one Tora was purchased in my friend's bike shop, second one was stock fork on my GFs bike. I love when people take the voice and have got nothing constructive and interesting to say. Both forks were serviced regularly- they were cleaned properly, serviced by the authorized RS dealer and even sent to the Polish RS distributor who said there was nothing wrong with them. And magicaly, a week after recieving them back, all problems were coming back. I've sent them more than 5 times to the RS distributor and they were more than 10 times in the service, were the guys tried everything to make them work properly and nothing really changed the situation for more than a week. I remember having an old Marzocchi MX Air on my old XC rig and having no problem with the fork performance, loosing air pressuer, oil leeks etc. And that was a fork for a very similiar amount of money...
no doubt that its easier to tune air vs coil, compared with swapping springs who's weight increments is every 50 lbs. with air, you can set it to the right psi.
i didn't know the advantage of having a lower unsprung weight means until i tried a friend's bike with an inverted fork: a manitou dorado. it tracked pretty well due to its low unsprung weight. in fox's case, since they dont want to go for an inverted design, they could at least shave weight off the lowers to make the suspension "more active" as what a lower unsprung weight does.
want to know the difference in unsprung weight, stick a heavy wheelset in your forks and then put a light one in there... the way the suspension follows the ground with heavier wheels is otherworldly by comparison
coil vs air makes no difference to unsprung weight as the weight of the coil isn't entirely moving up and down with the suspension action, the biggest thing is tunability, the idea of a ti spring is nice to save weight but if you're the wrong weight for the spring a new one will likely cost 200-300 for a new spring, even a decent shock pump will set you back less than 50!! an expensive fork is kinda pointless unless its set up to your weight/liking
fox is looking to keep pricing similar to the current 40 , i know that's expensive but at least they aren't just using any reason to bump the price up!!
Actually the unsprung weight of the float is the same or even worse . In the coil 40 there wasn't anything inside the lowers but the shafts , now in the one leg instead of just the shaft there is the negative spring part , which has 2 springs and seals which add weight and friction to the suspension movement . If you want better traction and lower unsprung weight just replace the old lowers with the new ones .
lol they dont teach algebra any more in university, they expect ya to know it now.. lol only calc 1 2 3 4 and vector calculus.. its worse in my opinion... dont call us engineers, call us people who are good with calculus
yes, they actually have something on them that makes them not slide.. you need to take them off, clean the stanchions and insides of the bumpers, and then wet it with plain water.. slide them on, and let them dry.. you wont be able to move them if you want to, trust me
It's the dust that does it. They are always a bastard to get onto the fork when servicing it, but after a few days in the dust they just flap about. Seem some cable tie modifications, but I just don't want to cut through them.
I'll be trawling the buy/sell for the inevitable coil 40's that are now going to be sold off for amazing prices. While the people who actually have money buy the new one...
the hell with 40, not one comment about the GT downhill bike prototype, it was even on slow-mo! looks interesting. not a GT fanboy as they have been crap since forever but hoprfully theyll have something in the future for more options.
Does anyone else find Gwin incredibly boring to watch speak? His monotone voice and disinterested demeanour don't make for very interesting interviews...
Something interesting if I remember correctly. Minnaar & Peat were riding rock shox in 2011. They switched to Fox for 2012. I wonder if they were enticed by the fact that Fox were developing the air spring, essentially giving them what they had in the boxxer?
A bin of gold-like bullcrap again. I'm sure their racers are as happy with no-coil option as Fabien is for getting a 34 with CTD and 15mm axle, instead of 160 36 with RC2.
I just wonder what is next, cuz as far as my imagination goes, there is nowhere to go with a "standard" DH fork. Electronicaly controlled valves, or prepare for ultimate bullshit in praise of must grow! What if we don't grow?! - 3% might kill us!
Yes balance in the rear, right... F1 cars definitely "need" balast in the rear - engine's not heavy enough - fk... no they make everything as light as possible and then amke the best use of balast they can achieve, that is, one of the means to balance the car to create certain amount of over or understeer to suit the circuit. There is no: mah we put a coil shock there because we need to add 0,5kg somewhere anyways - suspension performance is so important to them that they don't invest in bullshit, F1 car has suspension of 1/4 of the the travel of a DH bike, yet the shock has nearly double the stroke. Just as MX or Baja or WRC or whatever - when the game is serious enough, when huge money are at the stake, nobody has time for anything else than striving for actual performance
Bike companies are always giving an impression that they are after same level of perfection in race bikes. No they aren't, rider's skill and fitness is a dominant factor, and that gives them room to create lots of not always good options, one at the time, to keep selling them. Above certain level (dunno Domain vs Boxxer, Deore vs Saint) the role of tech stuff is so marginal that Aaron or Greg can win both on air and on coil shock, on RLC and on RC2 damper, so if they want to push air spring, they will give it to them, and people will talk bullshit like: did Syndicate changed to Fox and Shimano because they knew about the clutch and air-sprung Fox? Back in 2009 the Fox 40 RC2 was light years ahead of Boxxer with 32mm stanchions and a shit that Motion Control damper is, especially when paired with an air spring. Still, RS riders were beating arses of Foxes big time.
Someone has to scream bullshit, so they try this tiny bit harder next time.
lol i guess i did, but it was info i got straight from their tech department and it would make sense for them to do that because they have kashima and Inverted FIT RC2 cartridge upgrades for even the 2010 models, so y wont they do it for 2011-2013 forks?
I'm surprised nobody commented on the retrofit earlier, that's the one thing that has me looking at fox for my next shock, buy an older one and upgrade it,
I love the idea of a lab test that only loads the fork in one direction and claiming it simulates real life conditions!
No it does not. You have to include torsional forces from twisting caused by the wheel deflecting off obstacles, and forces exerted front to back due to compressions.
I got a FOX40 RC2 2012 Kashima and all I can say is that I'm greatly satisfied. I would not shell out extra money for the Fox40 Float because since I don't ride competitively, it would not make any difference for me or the difference would be negligible.
Sorry Fox, DirtTV made the interviews and what was heard cannot be unheard. In a non press release environment two legends confirmed that they ride what you push them to ride, so I don't believe a word that air spring is the way to go for gravity riding.
Give me Van 32 and 36 160 in RC2 back. If you care for "market demand"
ppl are so peeetty..... you think its expensive? yes it is but i eve seeing Bos forks for 2500$, Dorados for 2000$ and boxxer's for 2200$ in bike shops ..guesss what? ppl still buy them at that prices..you dont like 1700$? just dont buy it then !! go get 400$ boxxer like the other guy said..get over it!!!
iamamodel and singletrackslayer both present valid points. the fork flexes and compresses differently in turn receiving different loads and pressure from different angles on an actual bike racing down trails then it does when its positioned perfectly on a stand that sits in a stationary position..but then again keep in mind they are also testing it in actual use on a bike aswell. pretty sure fox has got it under control. they are just trying to push a new product, and whether it is an actual "improvement" and worth the extra cheese for most of us to upgrade or not, we will just have to wait and see. when it comes down to it i think it will be based more on who has a larger wallet rather than feel and actual personal preference/improvement.
No mention of the damping. This interests me more than the air spring, although it's interesting, the neg spring is also very interesting, and the flexier chassis.
Man!!! scientist and stress test lab work for a fork most of us can't afford much less tune perfectly! Fox make a knob that has three setting -World Cup mode - Bike Park Mode - Fkn'ng Around Mode. MAKE IT USER FRIENDLY dang it!!!
i think it is the song Miracle. REALLY DISSAPOINTED that the maker of the video did not credit the artist (Blackmill), as he is a pretty humble guy who only asks to give credit where due and makes amazing chillstep music!
Yeah Fox really screwed over blackmill, he's not a well known artist and when his song gets put into a pretty popular company's video he gets no credit.
Its pretty...which is great for all u fags who care more about how their shit looks, then how it works, for those of us who do care how our shit works, u won't see us anywhere near one of these piles of shit.
Eh WRONG, it reduces friction a good deal, meaning better small bump compliance and other fun shit, it's a proven technology, and in wc races, where Mili seconds are between, I bet my life it's made the difference ...
^ yeah, those milliseconds can be had by simply not having that extra slice of pizza or doing that extra sprint on a sunday night, which is free i might add (not having pizza, and sprinting, that is). the fork will cost you almost $2k.
it does, but it's a pretty insignificant compared to the seals which were introduced at the same time. It's more for marketing and looks than real performance.
I doubt you could tell the difference between kash and non-kash in a blind test.
When I bought my '12 RM Slayer 50 the Fox Float 36 stanchions were mismatched in color (it seems to be a common thing for '12's) and no matter how I set it the ride was squishy. I sent the fork to Fox and they put Kashima stanchions on and the difference is night and day- creamy smooth, stiff, quiet, f-ng perfect. I'm gonna upgrade my rp23 to Kashima once i save the money. It works.
are dvo using kashima too???? the emerald is advertised as using molybdinum disulphide stanction tubes.....if i'm right this means that you will kind of be able to buy the upside down fox fork that gee was seen testing a while back......well most people who buy fox get it because of the way it looks as opposed to how it actually works so its upside down and its got gold bits!!
@ nobble- hit the head on the nail.. everyone here is on the kash bandwagon while theyre not looking at other things that are more important to reduce friction.
if kash is sooooooo revolutionary like some of you claim, why dont all the other big name suspension companies start to pioneer and find their own 'kashima', rather than just use hard ano?
im not doggin on kasima, im doggin on you people who think you can feel a substantial difference with kashima... its more than likely your mind tricking you to think that.
i thumbs up'd bigburds comment cuz its hilarious, but mostly true. I will make one correction though - you forgot to put the word "fu****g" in front of champion. and i am taking delivery of a used kahima fork this friday. you can still have kashima for non-kashima prices.
haha lol people that think that kashima is only a colour!! it is as follows
1 harder than standard ano so it is more resiliant to scratches
2 smoother for longer seal and bushing life and improved small bump compliance (marginally)
admitadly the skf seals make a bigger dfference to sensitivity but the difference is there, i know fox's marketing department has gone nuts on it and probably too far with it at that but it isnt just a fancy colour
"hey bro its not the same as anodizing bro. cmon bro you dont know what kashima is bro?"
who gives a isht what it is. it dont make you faster. training and riding a lot does, and 'roids too. i do admit kashima is pretty though. thats about it. and ok it makes things more slippery. so does chain lube - doesnt mean i can push the same watts as the top pros.
also fox's marketing dept is pushing it so hard because we as customers have hyped it up so much - its our own f'ing faults. take this thread for example. we bought it hook line and sinker.
not trying to pretend it makes a massive difference, ive got a set of 36 kashima 180's... i know it doesnt suck the wheel to the ground better than a dyson or smoothen it up like a tub af butter but there is a difference between it and standard ano.. just the same as rockshox's dlc or their new black coating or marzocchi's nickel coating/ gold race coating its all the same bollocks but when it comes down to it you can feel the difference not so much if you bounce on it in a car park or do a single run but smashing out laps in a bikepark all day the more sensitive fork is the one that tires your arms out less and anything you can do to help that out when you're riding rough tracks flat out all day is worth taking a look at
The mountain bike industry is much like teen-aged boys. MANY MANY MANY phases. One day this is the best and the next that is.... Thats why im sticking with my 04 Boxxer WC's with no external adjustments i may say...
How often does a plastic piston fail? CNCed metal would improve the product how?
Think of this: We are only a few years away from being able to easily and cheaply 3D print exactly that type of part if you need to replace it. Air pistons, travel reducers, cable guides, little stuff that it is insane to have injection-molded in a far-off country, shipped, sent through 2+ middlemen's hands, etc. I'll take all the plastic I can get if there's no performance penalty. We already have the printers and a range of plastics. All that's left is the libraries of part designs that will spread through the culture like other intellectual property that is useful to the sharer and too much of a pain for the owner (e.g. Fox) to protect.
but plastic parts mostly are cheaper than those cnced ones but as you see talking about the price of fox 40 float fork, it doesn't matter.. according to fox suspension company
One real DH race's worth of debris getting on those fork legs and down into those seals is equivalent to about 200 lab-condition "races."
(I got dibs on the patent!)
www.wahoofitness.com/KICKRPowerTrainer/?returnFull=1
So:
a dust-blowing/rock-throwing contraption in front of the fork in freezing cold conditions
That's admirable.
Right now I'm like "no way... My 40 is very good, still nearly brand new, didn't have time to ride a lot lately... I'll keep it"
But in like a year maximum, I'll want that fork and I'll buy it...
Victim of the consumption (? is that the word?) society!
Granted it may not be exactly 1 lb. lighter, im sure there will be some weight loss.
I will definitely be sending my set in. Why send it in for a service when you could send it for a complete overhaul?
Or if it will be all of them ??, would be great cus I can get like an rc2 for cheap and then convert them to air, being a light rider it'll be awesome as I find springs too hard to get the right feeling
Don't try to pull that "oh they're trying to take our money, woe is us the poor riders!!" spiel. There are amazing products that are pretty cheap that will be more than enough for what you need any day of the week. This isn't one of them. You want top tier? You pay top dollar. That's the way it is in EVERY sport. For top notch lacrosse gear I paid a ton, and when I played ice hockey and was a goalie, lol... you think mtb is expensive?
"Rock Shox sucks cocks".
I had to deal with 3 forks from RS and all of them were terrible- problems appeared on every ride. That is not strictly connected with the Boxxer line, but IMO if you can't make the simple 300$ fork that is only equipped with the rebound adjustment and (eventually) with lockout to work for at least one season (and I'm talking about season as a everyday ride to school and some trips on the weekends, no jumping, no downhill, no enduro, no racing etc.) it's a sign that your technology is a piece of crap and that's what in my opinion Rock Shox has to offer.
Cheers
You buy a low end fork and you get a low end product, what the hell do you expect?
I'd never buy a fork for a 300$ to my DH or DJ rig, but if somebody uses his bike few times a week for a few hours ride in forest which is generally on a flat terrain he surely doesn't need the 10k XC bike or 10k enduro machine. and that's my point, if U guys purchase for yourself a road bike for 10 grands just to get to school 5 miles away, that's good for U, but we all know that U don't need bike THAT expensive.
tLAMA- one Tora was purchased in my friend's bike shop, second one was stock fork on my GFs bike. I love when people take the voice and have got nothing constructive and interesting to say. Both forks were serviced regularly- they were cleaned properly, serviced by the authorized RS dealer and even sent to the Polish RS distributor who said there was nothing wrong with them. And magicaly, a week after recieving them back, all problems were coming back.
I've sent them more than 5 times to the RS distributor and they were more than 10 times in the service, were the guys tried everything to make them work properly and nothing really changed the situation for more than a week.
I remember having an old Marzocchi MX Air on my old XC rig and having no problem with the fork performance, loosing air pressuer, oil leeks etc. And that was a fork for a very similiar amount of money...
besides anyone in their right mind would buy their dh rear shock from fox/bos/cane creek anyways rock shite are naff
no doubt that its easier to tune air vs coil, compared with swapping springs who's weight increments is every 50 lbs. with air, you can set it to the right psi.
i didn't know the advantage of having a lower unsprung weight means until i tried a friend's bike with an inverted fork: a manitou dorado. it tracked pretty well due to its low unsprung weight. in fox's case, since they dont want to go for an inverted design, they could at least shave weight off the lowers to make the suspension "more active" as what a lower unsprung weight does.
coil vs air makes no difference to unsprung weight as the weight of the coil isn't entirely moving up and down with the suspension action, the biggest thing is tunability, the idea of a ti spring is nice to save weight but if you're the wrong weight for the spring a new one will likely cost 200-300 for a new spring, even a decent shock pump will set you back less than 50!! an expensive fork is kinda pointless unless its set up to your weight/liking
fox is looking to keep pricing similar to the current 40 , i know that's expensive but at least they aren't just using any reason to bump the price up!!
I just wonder what is next, cuz as far as my imagination goes, there is nowhere to go with a "standard" DH fork. Electronicaly controlled valves, or prepare for ultimate bullshit in praise of must grow! What if we don't grow?! - 3% might kill us!
Bike companies are always giving an impression that they are after same level of perfection in race bikes. No they aren't, rider's skill and fitness is a dominant factor, and that gives them room to create lots of not always good options, one at the time, to keep selling them. Above certain level (dunno Domain vs Boxxer, Deore vs Saint) the role of tech stuff is so marginal that Aaron or Greg can win both on air and on coil shock, on RLC and on RC2 damper, so if they want to push air spring, they will give it to them, and people will talk bullshit like: did Syndicate changed to Fox and Shimano because they knew about the clutch and air-sprung Fox? Back in 2009 the Fox 40 RC2 was light years ahead of Boxxer with 32mm stanchions and a shit that Motion Control damper is, especially when paired with an air spring. Still, RS riders were beating arses of Foxes big time.
Someone has to scream bullshit, so they try this tiny bit harder next time.
Give me Van 32 and 36 160 in RC2 back. If you care for "market demand"
kash is the last thing on your list you should consider when buying a fork. whats inside really matters.
yes we know its pretty and it works, but its not like some holy grail (that everyone seems to think it is.).
if kash is sooooooo revolutionary like some of you claim, why dont all the other big name suspension companies start to pioneer and find their own 'kashima', rather than just use hard ano?
im not doggin on kasima, im doggin on you people who think you can feel a substantial difference with kashima... its more than likely your mind tricking you to think that.
1 harder than standard ano so it is more resiliant to scratches
2 smoother for longer seal and bushing life and improved small bump compliance (marginally)
admitadly the skf seals make a bigger dfference to sensitivity but the difference is there, i know fox's marketing department has gone nuts on it and probably too far with it at that but it isnt just a fancy colour
who gives a isht what it is. it dont make you faster. training and riding a lot does, and 'roids too. i do admit kashima is pretty though. thats about it. and ok it makes things more slippery. so does chain lube - doesnt mean i can push the same watts as the top pros.
also fox's marketing dept is pushing it so hard because we as customers have hyped it up so much - its our own f'ing faults. take this thread for example. we bought it hook line and sinker.
'white people talk'
Think of this: We are only a few years away from being able to easily and cheaply 3D print exactly that type of part if you need to replace it. Air pistons, travel reducers, cable guides, little stuff that it is insane to have injection-molded in a far-off country, shipped, sent through 2+ middlemen's hands, etc. I'll take all the plastic I can get if there's no performance penalty. We already have the printers and a range of plastics. All that's left is the libraries of part designs that will spread through the culture like other intellectual property that is useful to the sharer and too much of a pain for the owner (e.g. Fox) to protect.