FOX Electronic Suspension

Jul 29, 2015 at 10:28
by Mike Levy  
Prototype FOX Live Valve Electronic Shock

GT's Dan Atherton is at the Colorado Enduro World Series with a prototype Live Valve FOX shock bolted to his Sanction that appears to employ a battery that controls its damping. The photo, which Atherton posted to his Instagram, shows a battery mounted to the bike's down tube and a number of wires sprouting out of it, some of which are routed up to his handlebar. Dan's Sanction has used FOX's mechanical CTD remote lockout system in the past, but there's a good chance that the wire leading up to his handlebar goes to an accelerometer that's mounted somewhere on the front of the bike that "talks" to the shock. In this way, the shock will be able to anticipate the impact that's about to happen, thereby allowing it to adjust its damping in advance. That's all speculation at this point, but a similar system has already been put to use by Lapierre and RockShox with their e:I setup, as well as in motorized applications by FOX.
Dan Atherton s electronic FOX shock

The shock itself appears to use FOX's EVOL air can, but the strange looking piggyback is further proof that something else is going. It's also clear to see a wire heading into his fork's top cap, hinting that both the front and back of the bike are "talking" to each other to try to optimize performance.

Electronically controlled suspension will never completely replace a traditional system that depends purely on oil and shims, but there's also room for other options. Will we see World Cup downhill bikes with batteries and accelerometers that control its suspension? I doubt it, but it could be a completely different story on the enduro side of things where a bike's suspension is asked to perform over a much wider performance envelope.

Pinkbike's own Richard Cunningham has ridden the system, and you read the full ride report and detailed tech breakdown.

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117 Comments
  • 511 2
 I've been working on developing a system that allows the bike to go mountain biking on its own while I sit at home commenting on Pinkbike.
  • 2 2
 Hahaha
  • 15 1
 that's pure gold, boldfish
  • 16 0
 I saw the gopro follow along drone footage of your remote controlled ride. You should go to Rampage and huck the whole F*ing course.
  • 16 27
flag WAKIdesigns (Jul 29, 2015 at 12:15) (Below Threshold)
 What you do is you take a Polish unemployed man of your posture, put him through rigorous training and give him lots of dope, all at a minimum wage. Then you give him your Garmin with your Strava profile and make him take square pictures from behind bars, then post everything on FB. All will cost less than 10k bike and everyone will believe you, it's you
  • 9 1
 This sounds the entry of Poland to Eurozone, Waki. And trust me I know what Iam saying.
  • 17 0
 Guys! Watch out we'll need to install antivirus on our shocks.
  • 5 0
 Can we modify your system to work while I am at the office? I only go on Pinkbike while I am at the office. That's why I get paid the big bucks.
  • 6 0
 Link to kickstarter?
  • 5 2
 Waki: legend of the trolls
  • 1 0
 We need an app for that...@Boldfish...nice one...
  • 1 0
 WAKI - twat that squeezes food out of toothpaste tubes, calls it national heritage.. Bet that Polish people must've kicked your bottom on multiple occasions, therefore that stereotypical and sentimental approach still lives in your tiny pointless brain
  • 152 3
 There is also a wire connected to a probe that is inserted into Dan's anus. The feedback from his intestines, tells the shock when to firm up and cringe, and when to release all hell.
  • 35 2
 Pucker-sensitive damping, I think you're onto something.
  • 36 4
 i could give zero fucks for MORE cables and MORE complications on my bike
  • 9 1
 PSD. Still better than CTD.
  • 9 0
 "electrode attached to the major muscle groups are activated by a microprocessor to give the rider perfect contraction and relaxation pulses to match terrain in real-time."
  • 8 4
 it's already been done for a dropper post

waki-leaks.blogspot.se/2014/02/waki-leak-buttsx-dropper-post.html
  • 3 0
 let bike to be a bike not a hitech computer..
  • 84 6
 no
  • 51 1
 that escalated quickly...
  • 60 3
 I just count days until we will read a report of remotely hacked suspension system on bike...
  • 2 1
 Spot on
  • 9 1
 It's coming. It's going to happen on a big race like the Tour de France with all those electro grouppo. Someone is going to get EMP.
  • 5 0
 @Jhou that would be absolutely amazing, especially on a Cat 1 climb. Imagine if it put everyone in a 53x11 and then shut down.
  • 12 0
 Lmao. "Those SOBs hacked my suspension and put me into XC mode at the bike park again!"
  • 6 0
 while racing... by an oponent's hacker technician.
  • 2 0
 Not even. I think it'll come from a guy that threw piss all over Froome. @nevi414 , hahha teach him some bike handling skills!!!
  • 8 1
 I want to see an organized sport of two man teams: one hacker, one cyclist, which each hacker trying to sabotage the other teams cyclist, while defending his own.
  • 4 1
 @groghunter +1, also the hacker has to ride on the cyclist's back, so it behooves teams to draft lightweight hacker dwarves or skinny legless guys to ride in a UCI approved hydration pack.
  • 1 1
 That image makes me think this needs to be on penny farthings... but they don't have gears, we've got to find a compromise here...
  • 3 3
 Legalize dope!
  • 2 0
 The computer could be directly linked to a pump that controls a feed of shark adrenaline, I like it. We're gonna make millions, boys...
  • 27 2
 iPhone + Siri + electronic suspension... "SIRI MAKE IT HARDER"
  • 11 1
 That's what she said??
  • 20 0
 Corey..Trevor...hands down boys.
  • 7 0
 "Trust me, you guys f*cked up!"
  • 7 1
 This will be linked into Di2 shortly I am sure. If you don't think this will be on every highend bike in the next 3-5 years you are kidding yourself. Just take a look at how active suspension has taken over the automotive world for an example. Not sure if I like it or not, but 18 months from now once the bugs are worked out it should be killer.
  • 10 4
 Even though I will probably never have electronic suspension and neither will most riders out there, you have to give Fox some credit for pushing the boundaries of suspension.
  • 6 9
 The way to stop this is by regulation. In motorsports, first the factories went crazy with electronic suspension in F1. Then, it got banned. In motorcycles, it was banned before reaching the races (a big $$$ save). So, if UCI would please say "Electronically controlled suspension is banned", then we would all be spared.

Oh wait, EWS is not UCI controlled...
  • 11 2
 right, don't give any credit to Rock Shox, who did it long before Fox!
  • 3 0
 K2 previouly known as Proflex started it all back in the 90s:
idriders.com/proflex/resources/99_smart_fork_addendum.pdf
  • 3 3
 Oh, right, please advocate for the same shitty regulation at the UCI level that kept people from getting safer brakes on their road bikes until the last year, even for bikes that WEREN'T BEING RACED AT ALL. Yea, great f*cking idea.

How about you stop trying to prevent other people from riding bikes differently from you, @mrciave ?
  • 2 3
 @groghunter: as far as I'm concerned, everybody is free to do what they want and ride as they wish.

As far as electronics, since I'm heavily involved in motorsports, I am well aware that any factory and its engineers, given the necessary budget, will ever-complicate any system to gain the last tenth, to the point that it does not have any relevance with the normal user's application. Plus, it will take away the show.

Would you like, one day, to wonder if Gee Atherton was slower than Greg Minnaar (rider choice is purely causal) in Mt. St. Anne (track choice casual as well) because his electronically controlled suspension was not set right for the rock garden, or because the GPS enabled course detection got confused by a tree and did not set the machine right for the jump number 7?

Given the budget and resources, top level vehicle sports (since MTB has not yet a motor...) will head in this direction, if not regulated. And electronics are so easily over-complicated that either they are regulated heavily, or they will get out of hand.

And to show you I'm open to different ideas, I rode an e-bike last week. Since my training level was near-zero, it allowed me to enjoy a ride I'd never be able to do on my legs. But still, my target is to train and don't need an e-bike. No hate no love, just open mind.
  • 1 3
 "as far as I'm concerned, everybody is free to do what they want and ride as they wish."

Funny, cause your first post advocated banning it, and I quote "then we would all be spared."

So there's an important caveat to your statement "as far as I'm concerned, everybody is free to do what they want and ride as they wish." & that is "unless you want electronic suspension. In that case, what you want is wrong, & I want it banned."

How many times have we wondered if somebody would have won a race if not for a snapped chain or flat tire? not only is your fairy tale about GPS enabled course detection farcical(in that this isn't remotely the same,) but mechanicals are always a part of the "what if?"s of racing.
  • 7 0
 Holy crap!....what is this, F1?...pheeewww...this is getting outta control.
  • 4 0
 - Why my shocks aren't working? Yesterday everything was OK! Display says 'ERROR CALL SERVICE'.
- Have you been on periodical inspection in authorized service center?
- No, but i was just riding to bakery twice a week...
- We can repiair it in 5 mins, just bring us your bike. It would be around 50£.
  • 8 5
 It's cool as it's similar to some motorsports but It's beyond pointless for us normal riders at the price tag it'll sell at (££££)
It might make sense to pro riders, having their damping adjust to the terrain in milliseconds but I would never ever come to the full potential of this system. For me, set and forget.

Maybe fiddle around with compression here and there but that's it.

it's cool, but more pointless then 27.5+ wheel sizes.
  • 7 5
 Your comment was reasonable until you compared it to 27.5. I want 26 inch wheels to stay in the game, but 27.5 is a very beneficial choice for a lot of people.
  • 11 0
 @jwillsaylor :27.5≠27.5+
  • 1 1
 @jwillsaylor I like 27 inch wheels.. but the 27.5 PLUS is as pointless as this electronic damping for non pro riders. I forgot to add, If you can't feel the difference in 1psi in your forks or one click of compression, 1 psi extra or less in the tires, very slight changes in geometry and suspension linkage design, then this system is pointless.

The pro's on the other hand know when there's 1psi to much in their forks or tires.
  • 1 1
 That's why we need 26+
  • 2 1
 So if I put my 26x3.0 gazzallodi's on my dh bike and run them tubless, does that qualify for 26+ ?
  • 1 0
 Try some 2.4 ardents that come up about 2.8 an your not far off....
  • 3 1
 I actually do believe that electronics on bicycle gearing and suspension will become more common. Also on the bikes for the general public, not exclusively on the highest end stuff. Not because we the riders are unhappy with "analog" stuff, but it is just so much more convenient for the assembly of complete bikes at the factory. And the OEM market is massive compared to the aftermarket. It is not that PM brake calipers were so much better than IS in use, but they were definitely easier to set up initially. Hence why you saw the transition go "bottom up", XTR was the last in the Shimano line up to switch to PM. Hope brakes which are mostly aftermarket also stuck to the IS standard for long. Now, I'm not saying electronic shifting and suspension would provide worse performance than their analog counterpart, but these are definitely easier to setup and adjust for those large bike manufacturers. For suspension specifically, what you're having now is that most serious FS bikes need their own tune. I can imagine it takes more time to fiddle with the shims than to adjust parameters in the software. They'd also end up with fewer physical parts in those units which could save some costs as well. I doubt the electronic alternative is always more expensive than the current analog version. I don't think it would be cheaper nowadays to make a typical '70s or '80s phone with bells and a dial than it would be to make one with buttons and speakers as we had in the '90s.

So even though we might not need this, chances are that such electronically controlled suspension will actually be cheaper than the kind we have now. Even more so if we set our privacy setting so that we accept personal advertisements based on our riding styles (logged by our suspension, gearing and seatpost).
  • 1 0
 Funny you said that, I actually have a ardent (that I never use) and it's bigger than my 2.7 minion dhf. My nevegal 2.5 is bigger yet, and the 2.7 nevegal is damn near like the gazzallodi.
  • 6 0
 "The pro's on the other hand know when there's 1psi to much in their forks or tires."

I hate blanket statements like this. I'm sure some pros know when there's 1psi too much, and I'm sure some pros don't. There's also an equal number of amateur riders in both of those categories. Obsessing over and noticing minute details has more to do with personality than skill level.
  • 2 0
 Oh. I didn't even notice the plus, however, I do think 27.5+ has much more of a practical application than electronic suspension.
  • 1 1
 Surly makes dirt wizards in 26x3.0, has for a few years.

As for this system, my read on it is that it's so game changing that everybody will notice it. Keep in mind, this was on a bike designed for current suspension systems as well, part of the beauty of this setup is that suspension designers can alter the design to favor descending even more, & rely on the electronics to make up the difference, instead of having to make every suspension design a compromise between climbing & descending ability.
  • 2 0
 @vinay Either way, wtf happened to just riding bikes? Just go and ride your damn bike. I won't ever need electronic damping or logging. I ride fast, flowy and aggressively. That's all I need to know.
  • 1 1
 @Paintball23456 , I think this matters little in the context I was writing in. I tried to point out that quite some of the changes we see in products aren't about the user (rider) really. Which rider really cares whether the brake has an IS or a PM interface while out for a ride? Maybe some but not nearly as much as those on the assembly line, whether they should face the IS brake tabs or not. As a rider, you may have (had) to have this done once on a new fork or frame. On the assembly line they have (had) to do this several times a day. Now take this to concept to suspension. Currently, every OEM shock has a different factory tune and a suspension manufacturer has to keep track of what goes where. If they can do away with all that and send everyone the same shock (at least those who require the same type, length and stroke) and the bicycle manufacturer programs it to their preference, that would simplify stuff massively and possibly lower costs. As I rider, I don't really mind what's going on inside as long as it does the job and doesn't require considerably more maintenance. Which obviously they do as the batteries need care. As the analogy with the phone, it doesn't quite matter whether your phone has a dial, buttons or a touchscreen. Any of these allow you to speak fast, flowy and aggressively.

Now, my initial post was written before the product review and I wasn't aware that the electronics don't really control the damping. They're a more intelligent version of the "brain" Specialized introduced a decade ago. Basically another concept to preserve (rider, not electric) energy and still allow the suspension to work. It could be great for competitive (XC/ND) riders but it is not for me really. I like my suspension to work but I don't mind wasting my energy.
  • 2 0
 Important caveat about your analogy to the Specialized Brain: The brain relies on a brass weight that it activated by inertia. because of that, it takes longer, & doesn't open as fast, as live valve. Also, it closes after every impact, where this will intelligently leave the damper open. All in all, the mechanism is similar, but the method of activating it should work much better than brain.
  • 1 0
 Yeah I know but even if the brain would perform as advertised (which apparently this system does, and more) I wouldn't need it. I'd rather have my suspension consistent and predictable. If I can't be sure whether the damping is going to be stiff or open when I hit a bumpy corner I might not end up where I intended to be. I can compensate for suspension that is slightly soft or hard, over- or underdamped. But don't think I can cope that well with less predictable suspension.
  • 5 2
 "Will we see World Cup downhill bikes with batteries and accelerometers that control its suspension? I doubt it"- In my opinion, you are dead wrong here. If there can be significant performance benefits at high speeds, I think we will see this type of system everywhere, including DH.
  • 1 0
 Agreed. Elite WC racers will be using this tech in a few years.
  • 1 0
 Also agree. Very short sighted to definitively say electronic suspension will never replace oil and shims, and you wont see it in WC DH. I bet just a few years ago people would have found it difficult to believe the number of carbon bikes there are now for example. We have no idea what will be available in the future or the potential of this kind of technology has.
  • 4 3
 Simple question: are MX or moto Enduro guys using it?
  • 1 0
 Didn't Honda already have some kind of electronic lockout on their DH bikes back in the day..?
  • 1 0
 I think we'll see it on pedally courses that riders bring smaller bikes to, but i can't imagine this being worth the trouble someplace like Val Di Sole. this is only a semi-active system, & I think we'll need to get to fully active systems for them to bring much to the table for DH.
  • 1 1
 Just because pros will ride it, won't mean anything. Many of them hate carbon rims, yet they still ride them. Remi Thirion rides Formula Brakes and manages to stay alive on them on a wet track, which is next to impossibrah. Also, that will come at a considerable weight increase and weight will ALWAYS be the ultimate indicator of technological advancements in MTB so it may be an issue for many specimens of "the buying force". I personally could not give a slightest damn as I will never be able to afford it. Please buy as much as you can, my wife may need it in the future and I love second hand deals
  • 2 1
 At best I consider these two systems to be the first steps in a real revolution in suspension performance. Especially for DH. Check out GM's MagneRide or other active suspension systems like those seen in F1 in the 80's . Systems like these can really change suspension performance, especially at high speeds. At this point I have no doubt that this tech will make its way into MTB. The real question is, where/when will the UCI draw the line on systems like these coming into racing ? (Formula 1 Banned these systems because the performance boost was unfair!)

MagneRide: www.youtube.com/watch?v=48m1_otpD9c&list=PLD6D8F6DEE7C8F789
F1 Active Suspension: www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSHEF7pR0nI
  • 2 1
 Switching between platform modes is just the tip of the iceberg. Real time adjustments tailoring the performance of the suspension to what is happening at that exact moment is the real payoff.
  • 3 0
 LOL I was ribbing my friend about this the other day. I said to him, " Is that why you went for as much carbon as you could. So you could re-attach all the weight loss, in stickers." Of course its his choice and I was teasing.
But this CLEARLY happens to be the case in the industry...Make bike light as possible, RE add all the weight in explosive batteries. Cant wait to see the " I got my hand blown off by a faulty bike battery" articles on the net, over the next decade.
  • 6 2
 some people dont agree with this sort of thing, i welcome it, but only because i look forward to passing that sucker that has more $ than skills.
  • 6 0
 is it april first already?
  • 5 1
 I'm thinking about going on a mechanic course. Looks like I'll have to go on a electrician one as well!
  • 8 2
 capital NO !!
  • 4 0
 The battery could have gone flat 4 months ago and I wouldn't know about it ...
  • 3 0
 Amen to that. Couple of clicks of rebound and no compression and I'm sorted. I'm paying lots for this suspension, I bloody well expect to feel it moving!
  • 5 1
 Cool for pro racers, but for the rest of us... Who cares???
  • 2 1
 Never say never... I foresee a future of entirely electronic suspension, with electro-magnets for dampening rather than oil and shims.. And digital adjustments with the touch of a finger
  • 3 0
 My future racing success will be based on mechanical old school setup and a emp
  • 1 1
 So how long before someone offers a bike with electronically controlled fork, shock and gearing all tied into a GPS that reads the topo data for the trail you're on as well as getting feedback from your heart rate monitor so it can adjust itself accordingly?
  • 3 0
 In the future cyclists will be injured seriously by electrical hazard caused from their bikes
  • 2 0
 bad idea to have electronic shocks. In my opinion you cant trust elctronics
  • 2 0
 First shimano xtr di2 and now suspension. Fox just keep up to what you were doing your suspension is great the way it is!
  • 2 0
 Just what this old broke down body needs in a mountain bike. Suspension more sophisticated than Ryan Dungeys.
  • 2 0
 I'm all for progression but I will never have anything battery operated on my bike.
  • 3 1
 This is ok, but don't you dare mount a camera on your helmet??
  • 1 1
 It will be interesting to see where this goes. What control algorithm they eventually employ and what the real world benefits are.
  • 2 0
 Real benefits: cheaper to make, more expensive to sell.
  • 1 3
 What's old is new again... Noleen Smart Shocks and Forks did that FIFTEEN YEARS AGO.... The batteries today may last longer but its certainly not a new or original idea by any stretch of the imagination. They had them for the external shocks used by the bikes and linkage forks, as well as for a telescopic leg model suspension fork.

www.neebu.net/~khuon/cycling/bikes/K2/1999-OzM/smartshock.html
  • 1 2
 You're absolutely right. But like electronic shifting, it took time for someone to get it right. Now we got three players in the electronic suspension with their own variations of it. Hopefully one of them gets it right.
  • 2 1
 Arguably Lapierre and RockShox's E:I have already got it right
  • 1 0
 I would argue against that, as I've ridden a Lapierre, & it was loud enough to annoy me(& I ride loud hubs, so that's saying something.)

This system should be nearly silent.
  • 5 3
 he'll still not win anything lol
  • 3 0
 Just stop.
  • 2 1
 All of this and nobody has developed a helmet attachment that holds beers and a sipping apparatus.
  • 3 1
 fuck electronics on a bike! that s for e bikes
  • 2 0
 kiss= Keep it simple; stupid.
  • 2 1
 not interested...electronics have no business in the mountain bike industry....i ride a 29er too!
  • 1 0
 Okay, so Dan should win the next EWS round with all that tech on his side...
  • 1 0
 Kinda scary / outcome of the race due to malfunction of a battery or cable
  • 2 1
 Gonna be perfect on my e-mountain bike. ; )
  • 2 1
 IM ASSUMING HES JUST COLLECTING DATA
  • 3 0
 Nope
  • 1 0
 I rode a magura fork with a gyro controlled valve system that would change between open/trail/climb depending on the angle the bike was oriented. Worked really good.
  • 2 1
 Waiting for bluetooth controlled dropper and suspensions
  • 2 1
 I just wanna ride my bike... This is close to an effin e bike.
  • 1 0
 "We are hiring now Electricians"
FUTURE BIKE SHOP
  • 1 0
 In a not so distant future, my AM bike will be considered a Clunker.
  • 2 2
 What happened to Kashima being "it"...
  • 2 0
 Kashima was never it. Slippy nickel and ti nitride have always been better.
  • 1 1
 bike boner
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