Specialized's long awaited carbon Demo makes an appearance at the Kokanee Crankworx event in Whistler, B.C., flying under the radar of nearly everyone in the lift lineup thanks to its stealth looking black color scheme. The prototype looked like it was being passed between different Specialized engineers and test riders from run to run throughout the day, no doubt to gather as much feedback as possible.
We were quick to ring up Specialized for details of the new machine, but there is little to be learned at this point. Regardless, here is what we can assume:• It is very likely that the production frame will feature the exact same shape and layout as the prototype above. Why? Carbon molds are very pricey and it is doubtful that Specialized would invest it multiple molds when the frame shown above looks to be at a very refined state and near production.
• The production bike will use an aluminum rear end. Besides the fact that this prototype is sporting the aluminum chain and seat stays, it is generally agreed upon that not only are carbon stays much harder to manufacturer, but they are also very costly to produce. We could be wrong, but we're willing to say that it is unlikely.
• Expect a drastic weight savings over the current aluminum version. Why? Because they have to. Specialized's competition has unveiled carbon bikes over the past few seasons that are not only claimed to be much stronger than their aluminum counter parts, but also drastically lighter, around two full pounds in some cases. Specialized would not be putting the effort in to produce a carbon downhill frame if they also couldn't come up with some substantial weight savings. While we obviously don't know just how much lighter it will be over the present aluminum frame, we'll venture that it must be between 700 and 1000 grams.
• Don't expect any radical changes to the geometry on the new bike. They have worked hard with the Monster Energy - Specialized team to come up with a geometry set that seems to work very well. In fact, the team - Sam, Brendan and Troy - all ride production frames. We believe that the carbon frame will continue to make use of a short 421mm rear end and a low bottom bracket height. Given the rise of headsets that allow riders to adjust the steering to their liking, you can expect the head angle to remain the same as well.
• The bike may be able to be purchased with Cane Creek's much loved Double Barrel rear shock as stock equipment. This one is a bit of a reach, but there is no arguing that the CCDB leads the pack when it comes to damper performance, and if Specialized wants to come to the market swinging, they'll likely at least offer it as an option.
• The new frame will be only nominally more expensive than the current aluminum model. Downhill frames are in no way inexpensive, but the latest carbon models are, somewhat surprisingly, not accompanied by a massive increase in price. Yes, it will be costly, but we'll wager that it will still be priced competitively.
While it hasn't exactly been a secret that Specialized is working hard to join the carbon downhill bike club, they have done an admirable job of keeping the new machine under wraps while working on its development. There have been no leaked "spy photos", and even the Monster Energy - Specialized team hasn't been spotted testing the new rig, although you can all but guarantee that they've been involved in its evolution. Of course, all of that flies in the face of the hype machine that usually surrounds a major bike's coming out, which is why it came as a bit of a surprise to see the much talked about, but yet to be seen by mere mortals, carbon Demo doing hot laps of the Whistler mountain bike park. The very finished appearance of the frame has us believing that while the bike may still be a ways away from production, it will likely show up under one or all of the Monster Energy - Specialized team riders at an upcoming World Cup race, possibly even the next round in La Bresse, France.
Given the prototype shown here, Specialized must believe that carbon is the future of performance downhill bikes. Do you agree? Has the sight of Specialized's carbon Demo got you thinking? Put those thoughts down below and stay tuned for more information as it becomes available!Visit the
Specialized website to see their entire lineup, although you won't find the new carbon Demo there yet!
However I dont see that for the majority of the riders out here and there. I dont agree that all bikes will turn to carbon in the future. Cost is one reason (not everyone can or is willing to lay down €6000 for a bike that must last them at least 3 years), but reliability is another.
Simply said: When have a big hit on the downtube of my bike I can take a look and see what the damag is.
- if it is alluminium, there might be a dent. Shit, but the frame is otherwise still very well intact and I can keep on riding for months or even years without a worry.
- If it is carbon, there will be no dent. there will be no visual clue for me if there is any damage to the bike. I wont know if anything is wrong with the bike untill is snaps. Auw!
Now if the bonding matrix for the carbon fibres would include a self repairing substance so that minor cracks will get fixed after 24h or so, then that would be a game changer. Untill then, I'll stick to alluminium and work on bike skills.
But a dent in a aluminium tube does not make the material itself less strong, but only changes the cross section of the tube. This can make the member less strong, but that depends on what loads are transferred. Also see below.
@akirizu. I agree fully that for the majority of the riders their skill is the limiting factor, and that riding a bike where it is meant to be ridden will not result in premature wear or breaking. But that is to be expected of any bike you can buy (self builts are a different matter). They simply have a design lifetime (loadcycles as it is called) before they may develop structural weaknesses.
However when you manage to have a crash with the bike (going down in a rock garden comes to mind) the bike will get hits at different places, angles, intensities etc. than the engineers designed for.There is a large amount of residual strength left in any construction so this should not be a problem if the material is ductile. (also called ductile behaviour. e.g. building floors sagging eccesively before actually collaping. This gives a visual warning for occupants that something is wrong).
However, when this ductile behaviour is not present (The limits for deformation and actual breaking are close together) than any structural weakness can quickly develop into a structural failure. Carbon fibre matrix composites (as far as I'm up to date) have very limited ductile behaviour.
I know that using carbon a bike can be made very strong where it is needed, flexible where needed, and anything in between. It can be stronger than an alu bike at the same weight. It can be lighter at the same strenght. All true.
I just prefer to be able to see that my bike has developed a weakness (dent, cracked weld) rather than not knowing about it.
The only bit that failed was the aluminium swingarm and that showed no signs of giving up until it went 'bang'. I checked for signs because I was expecting it for a long time, due to the Rasom's reputation.
I wish the swingarm was carbon because I believe it would have lasted me quite a bit longer.
Still I get to buy a new bike now eh.
It is not all aluminum now. Steel is still around in quite some quantities:
- Pretty much all NS Bikes frames (if not all)
- Specialized P Bikes and Fixie
- Hyper Bike Co BMX frames
- Some Nicolai frames
- ....
Carbon frames have been here for a while now, think of Storck for example. The only thing that kept them from the big break through we live now is that they were very expensive and not so reliable. Luckily at least one of those aspects changed. Even if carbon would gain terrain on the bicycle market, steel frames, aluminum frames, titanium frames and bamboo frames will still be around. No need to discuss which one is better, each frame runs through many tests before it ends up in your garage.
If you don't buy carbon frames because you are scared of crashing, then don't buy high end bike at all. Accidents happen.
While carbon tech is getting a lot better, In the longevity test, they don't last even close to aluminum.
I change frame every 5 years and when I'm done with one it is usually still in ok shape (of course it has scratches, dings and nicks) I'm still able to sell them for reasonable value. I've seen carbon frames literally fall apart after 3-4 seasons, and I'm not talking about DH frames (All-Mountain ones).
I'll stay with my heavy(er) aluminum frame that I can relay on and enjoy for many years. it will be hard to convince me otherwise.
Hope it comes in a raw carbon finish.
I could have told Specialized they need to improve their tooling and layup techniques, then they wouldn’t have to put about 100 grams of filler in their frames.
Cons. not as strong as metal when it comes to direct force, you have to do a "quarter test" after every crash. and the biggest pitfall in my opinion is, carbon echo's every creak and noise 10x louder then metal. i work on a lot of carbon road bikes were the rider complains of creaking and half the time its because the pressed in metal shell has started to works its way loose. so if your sponsored or have a lot of money, the carbon is definitely worth it. but if you try and get a full 3 to 5 seasons out of your dh rig... well I'm sticking with metal frames as long as i can.
P.S.: i remember some video of a carbon evo review or so?! the rider said its super quiet cause of the carbon. dunno how much worth this info has tho...
Because I can't see how a carbon frame would be made from the same stuff as F1 cars otherwise it would cost $10,000+
and i bet F1 car parts are that expencive cause of the massive development that is involved.
The "stronger than steel" comparison may be true in a purely tensile stress regime however carbon composites that are useful for making rigid parts have a much lower shock impact (frame strikes rock) strain tolerance and a considerably lower compression strength. If you look at how a carbon fiber part is manufactured it becomes clear why it has such different stress characteristics from a homogeneous metal part.
I know that carbon is thinner on road bikes.
That is why I said they are layered differently, both road and mtn bikes can and have been ridden in excess of 60km/h in competition.
Not narrow minded just spewing fact, the con you speak of is a big one. It's not that hard to put a good chip in carbon frames and parts, I've done it a few times and have seen lots of frames/seatposts and bars fail!
Carbon: rock flicks up and writes off the frame :/
I don't want to pay £1000s for a frame that can't fend off a rock... Plus I quite like a good crash now and then to!
If it was really as bad as you claim we would be hearing about many broken frames since people have been riding, racing and crashing carbon Mojo's, Nomads, Enduros, v10s, ect. I guess we should stick to that magical material of aluminium like the Revolt, I hear it's industructable! Properly designed bikes will hold up well and poorly designed bikes will break, doesn't matter what material you use.
probably for 2013
And for Cannondale, they actually weld two (2) times on the same spot. Then get the extra metal off.
You can modify some molds slightly depending on what the issue is but hard points cannot be changed so your angles need to be bang on before you start.
Carbon is a hard game to play in.
So Glory Mk1 was intended for 06, 07, 08 model years. Mk2 was intended for 09, 10, 11, but pushed back til 10, 11, 12. Mk3 (Glory Advanced SL) for 2013 onwards?
Giant are building 5.9 million bikes this year (2.4 million will have another brand name on the down tube!), so their production schedule really is planned years in advanced.
And those carbon molds cost $150,000 each... Say they have 10 of each size, that's $4.5 million just on the molds. You don't 'click to go' on that order, until you're *sure* it's right. BTW, I have no idea how many individual molds they have, it could be 1, 10, or 100...?
I don't know who makes the carbon Fury, but you can be damn sure it's not a GT-owned facility.
Imagine the weight of a single pivot carbon frame.
DH is no different and trees and rocks are as bad or worse than pavement and cars.
Biggest difference is there are still only a handful of carbon DH frames out there compared to 100's of road designs.
I actually think someone else needs educated. Carbon road bikes are made very thin compared to DH bikes
You said that rocks and trees are worse than pavements, but you forget these bikes go around 60km/h. Any crash at that speed will do damage.
Don't you think you're being a bit narrow minded?
Carbon is rigid like you say but it is way stronger than Alu if done right. The ONLY con to carbon is that once damaged it is very weak because it's so brittle.
I know that carbon is thinner on road bikes. That is why I said they are layered differently, both road and mtn bikes can and have been ridden in excess of 60km/h in competition. Not narrow minded just spewing fact, the con you speak of is a big one. It's not that hard to put a good chip in carbon frames and parts, I've done it a few times and have seen lots of frames/seatposts and bars fail!
You ride a Rocky dj frame yet you comment on the company I ride not having a carbon dh, well neither does rocky mtn?
How do you rationalize your comment?
DH is no different and trees and rocks are as bad or worse than pavement and cars."
Kind of implying that carbon can't handle dh, meaning that you think it sucks...
Yup, you can do that also, called double pass so the smoothing is on the outer weld not the one that counts.