Troy Lee Designs' Ultralight Full Face Helmet - Sea Otter 2018

 I have to say, I dnt understand your comment... you wear knee an albow pads (well done) but you understand that if you hit your face with a rock that would cut your knee or elbow it would actually ruin not only your face but possibly your head and Brain!

I’m saying this from someone that hasn’t ridden a bike for 6 months because of getting serious concussion from hitting a tree with the side of my head.
Only just back to work and prob won’t ride my mtb this year... Let a lot being able to focus and remember things from a few days ago ha
I was wearing an open face at the time now I’m not saying a full face would have stopped my concussion but could have helped just a little and especially if I was to hit my face and or if it were rocks I hit

Full faces ain’t for everyone and would never say you should wear something over something else, just having the option is a great thing

 Been riding trails for a few years now with an MET Parachute (713 grams) for exactly the reason you describe - having had some facial surgery for injuries I don't think twice about it. t's a good call.

 I always wear my full-face on the trail.

 @jimmychoo401: Sorry to hear you are suffering the effects of a concussion, Ive had my share and there’s nothing worse. Get better!

 @SteveH250: Same. For some reason people think oh it's tame XC riding, well you can still end up on your face at a decent clip.

I've love my MET Parachute. Nice to see others entering the market.

 @TheOriginalTwoTone: You work for MET right?

 @special-jLeslie: I love my MET too. except mine is a bit small. Maybe I work for them too??

 Who cares? If you want to ride with a full face helmet, do it. Haters gonna hate, don’t worry about it.

 man trail with a full face does just look so naff though. I hate how it is but that's just the way man

 @ryanandrewrogers: hate that I agree with this. I think that’s pretty much what the original comment was saying though, like he’ll wear them if everyone else does too. It’s silly though, you see a dude with a full face on a dual crown fork riding a trail and if he were wearing a half shell it would be odd... see a single crown 6” bike on that same trail and the full face looks wierd. It’s just style...

 Because my full face is so hot. I shuttle in my D3 but I have to take it off for the uplift, there's no way I could ride trails (IE when I have to pedal for 1-2 hours), I'd pass out from the heat. That being said, this is obviously a lightweight and well vented version, so it would be a good test.
As for knees and elbows, I only wear mine when I shuttle, it's a risk like everything else. But I also tend to ride where it's soft and sandy. If I rode in Queenstown, or Alexandra I'd probably wear knees and elbows.
There's also the weight. The first few shuttle days of the season I get a sore neck purely from heavier helmet.

 I ride with a fox proframe virtually all of the time. Most of the guys I ride with choose to wear half faces, to me its not worth the risk. I've had a couple bad falls where my face made contact with a tree/root/rock and without my full face... the results wouldn't have been pretty. I'll take an intact jaw over a slightly sweaty head any day.

 Get a Bell Super 3r with a removal chin bar. You're not constricted on the way up, nor are you "that guy" when you leave the parking lot. Just throw the chin bar on the back of your Camelbak. When you descend, put the chin bar on. Safety and functionality all rolled into one sweet package.

 @ryanandrewrogers: Brain damage is also pretty naff.

 ...

 @TPLRacing I totally get what you're saying. I want to and I know I probably should wear a full face sometimes, but I rarely do because, well, there's a stigma

 I think the best example is Cedric Garcia. He is always wearing his IXS Cult DH Helmet for Enduro riding.
We humans often just learn after the pain.
After crashing 100 times with a half shell and youre fine it could be the 101´s time you land on your face. So if youre worried about your safty just dont be lazy taking the helmet on and off.
Sure its nice to raise your dropper and climb up not caring about your helmet and the additional heat.
I have the same issues and hope we see alot of new vented fullface helmets.

So at least you should not care about others! Its your safty and your decision! Ride safe! (sorry 4 my bad english )

 @Andrew9696: the bell super line up excluding the dh is actually terrible. My super 2 which appears to use the same molds as the 3 fits horribly due to the compromises of the chinbar attachment area and barely serves to protect me as just a half shell. Do yourself a favor and get a full face that actually meets the full face requirements such as the proframe or switchblade. The switchblade I have still has really good fit without compromise since the chinbar connects to the ear area of the helmet.

 I got both ! Trails in my area aren't so dangerous but whenever i know i'll be hitting risky trails I bring the full face

 TPL, I am the "trail guy" with the full face (a Fox pro frame). Honestly, I've only had one person act really weird and truth be told, that's their insecurity. This particular person actually had their full face in their backpack (wanted to wear it), but felt weird. Whatever, who cares. I'll say this, out on the trail it might be 'group think' peer pressure, but in the dentist chair, ALL ALONE, it will just be the sorry chap who has had their teeth smashed in. No peer support there, AND certainly the dental bill will not be shared. -Realign the jaw, insert new teeth = a Yeti SB5. I'd rather have the money for bike parts, thanks. I love my Fox right now (for it's weight - you completely forget about it). I'll be ALL over one of these Troy Lees, simply because in the past they fit my head better. These new helmets are so light that your neck always feels great.

 @Andrew9696: Until you have that crash where you're like damm wish I had the chinbar on.

 @special-jLeslie: Obviously, if you recommend a product you have to work for them.

At least the first word of your username hit the mark.

 @ryanm189: Smashed my teeth in after 20 years of open face riding without issues. It'll be a Proframe for me this year. The thought of paying my dentist all my play money instead of my bike dealer is too much to bear!!! Guess I'll be a trend setter whether all y'alls like it or not!

 Unluckily the most Enduro full face helmets look ugly. i dont know why the chinbar has to be so f*ckn long... for me there is just one stylish option on the market and it looks like its really safe. bell super dh equipped mips

need to try it out i think

 @SteveH250: exactly the same here
also the parachute, which is great imo (comfy/light/decently vented)

some people look at you because of how cool you look in full face and think you're some kind of extreme rider, as a bonus, lol

its even nice for simple things like not having a scar of stitches on your face, not just "life saving events"

 I'm surprised by the speeds and terrain people ride with just a dinky half-shell where I live.

 Just curious, has it been proven how much safer a full face helmet is compared to open face? Not trolling, seriously curious. When I broke my first full face (bicycle helmet) I got a MX helmet as a replacement as I though, if it is good enough for moto it sure must be safer for bicycle riding too. Of course, breathing was a challenge (especially the first day at altitude, when at the Megavalanche Alpe d'Huez) but I was willing to accept that for more protection. I only later learned that the more rigid helmet wasn't really safer on the bike. A motorcycle (street) rider also told me one day you can choose open face or closed face on a motorcycle. If you crash, the open face helmets gets your face messed up, the closed face helmet is more likely to leave you with a neck injury. Neither is pretty, but I think I would dislike the nick injury the most.

So I'm curious how it is with bicycle helmets. My perception is, full face must be safer. But I also used to think MX helmets would be safer and I was wrong there. So I'd appreciate some real research on this. Of course more back and side coverage helps and I always went for helmets that provided this. This is where the brains are. But yeah, I'm curious whether the chin bar (the difference between full face and open face helmets) always increases safety or, just like the MX helmet, is actually a bad choice for trail use (from a safety viewpoint).

 @IllestT: Forget stigma man...If you're in the dentist chair, and the bill comes in at like 2500 quid, you'd easily toss over the price (and embarrassment) of a full face, to reverse the tape. I think Fox's proframe and this new TLD look pretty dope. After awhile (and particularly while your'e biking) you don't even think about it. Protect your teeth man (and brains). I watched a Yeti rider hit his cheekbone once - brutal. The cheek bone is actually just the front (lower) of your skull, so the dude got seriously concussed. A full face might have kept his chops further from the ground. Actually, come to think of it, this other dude I met in Squamish last year told me he spent two months in the hospital because he smoked his throat. I always wondered if a full face would have kept his front neck/throat at least a little further form the rock he hit. Disclaimer: I also wear full goalie gear when I bike.

 @bankz: Too late for me, I've got the scar on my face because of a 1/2 dome. Not again.

 @vinay: I really don't understand how the concept eludes you. Not being rude, but go up to a rock and throw your face into it, first with a FF and then a 1/2 dome, lets us know if it makes sense after that.

 @TheOriginalTwoTone: That was indeed the kind of reasoning that made me presume an MX helmet would be safer than a mountainbike full-face. What I'm curious about though is the likelyhood of a concussion or other brain injury, not face damage. The face damage is obvious, but the brain damage should not be ignored. If the full face gives better or equal protection as the half shell then excellent, there is a winner without any drawbacks. However, if I understand from Kali etc correctly, concussions are for a big part induced by rotational loads. A helmet with large vents, angles and appendages is more likely to introduce those. So yeah, what's the influence of the mouth piece on that? I'm not saying they don't make sense for straight impacts (which is what you seem to want to test with your experiment). They preserve a pretty face, which is nice. I'm just curious if there's been any testing on brain and neck injury due to comparable rotational impacts on full face helmets and half shells. We could stick to assumptions, but that would also have made me stick to believing that MX helmet was so very safe.

So again, if the full face proofs to be safer for everything then excellent. There are safer helmets around than what we're riding. The only thing stopping us may be comfort and vanity. Up to the rider whether it is worth it (as with all protective gear, of course) If it doesn't, then what? It may help helmet manufacturers make safer helmets. Maybe helmets that have more sideways flex but still remain rigid in a straight impact. Safer is always good. Or otherwise, get something like BMX racers have been riding back in the days. Or what Olly Wilkins used on that old Dirt cover. Olly looks cool with everything. I tried to link to a picture of that cover, but all I got was a pinkbike popup that told me my IP is logged for possible spamming. Sorry for that .

 @jimmychoo401: what tplracing is saying makes sense and I'm pretty sure you understand his comment

 @vinay: DH rated helmets have to pass a penetration test, protect against higher force impacts, plus the same helmet is used for multiple impact tests and the chin strap test force is higher. Standard helmet test doesn't have a penetration test, impact test forces are lower, and a new helmet is used for each impact test. DH rated helmets end up having much thicker foam to protect against higher impact force and repeated impacts, fewer vents on top where the penetration test happens, and better chin-strap retention systems. Test impact force for DH helmets is still much lower than DOT.

Personally, I find the plastic chin-strap clips on half-shells extremely cheesy. More half-shells should be "DH" rated with features like d-rings, thicker foam, and fewer vents IMO.

 @dthomp325: Thanks, that's what I needed to know! To me, the Giro Xen looked like the Switchblade without the chin bar, the Specialized Instinct like the Dissent helmet (of back when Matt Hunter used it in the Roam video) and the Met Anaxagore looked like the Parachute. I actually went through a number of Anaxagore and Instinct helmets back in the day because I thought they were safer than the regular XC helmets. At least they got more coverage. The one I got before I bought something they sell as "enduro" was the THE F14. I know the modern helmets look different though so maybe those older full face helmets (those mentioned, not the regular TLD D2 etc) didn't qualify as proper full face helmets. Would suck, because the Specialized helmet was definitely being used for proper DH type riding by their sponsored athletes.

Anyway, not meant to go against of what you're saying. But I'm just seriously curious about where these not-DH-rated full face helmets stand in terms of safety. And I don't mean tooth and nose protection. I mean in terms of proper protection for the brain (also against rotational impacts) and not introducing additional loads on the neck. They clearly won't pass the penetration tests (or you need to be very carefull where you try to penetrate it and make sure it doesn't slip). Kali actually attempts to make lower profile helmets in order to reduce the arm hence the rotational impacts, though obviously that also reduces the foam thickness.

As mentioned earlier, the advantages of a full face helmet are obvious or at least instinctive. And there are downsides too, as I understood from motorcycle riders (see my earlier post).So there are conflicting requirements and as a consumer I'm just trying to figure out which direction I should go.

I'd be fine with fewer vents and I've got nothing against the d-ring. I wouldn't be against the additional weight too. My hair is heavy enough and makes the vents less effective too. Just wondering about the penetration test, would that be the difference between a hard shell skate helmet and the regular foam cycling helmet? I thought the main reason for these would be that they slide better over hard (street type) obstacles. Or do these all pass the same "non-motorized sports" certifications? I recently cracked a POC skate helmet and got something from Abus (Scraper) as a replacement. If it is any safer for trail riding, I wouldn't mind using it there too.

 @vinay: I have no idea how skate helmets are certified. I doubt the number of vents affects rotational force much. Generally round shaped helmets slide and roll more easily, which reduces rotational force compared to helmets with sharp edges or ridges. The penetration test is only performed at the top of the helmet, which is why DH certified helmets like the ProFrame still have vents in other places, but I have no idea how likely you are to land on the top of the helmet vs the other sides. Kali, Fox, Leatt, and others have dual density foam: a soft foam to protect against minor concussions at low-force impacts, and the standard harder foam to protect agains high-force impacts, seems like a solid improvement in helmet tech to me.

 @dthomp325: I definitely have had impacts at the top of my helmet. Typically those high speed crashes where go head first into some immovable obstacle. So not necessarily landing upside down, but just horizontally into a vertical obstacle (rock, tree...). But these are typically straight on impacts. Not rotational, not penetration. I'd expect penetration to be more into the side of the helmet, not the top.

Dual density foam indeed sounds nice. Not sure if my helmets have that now.

 @vinay: preventing neck injuries is why people are wearing neck braces in the first place you know.
Considering how safe helmets are, there is a standard (ASTM-1952-DH) which tells you if the helmet is DH ready or not, i wouldn't buy a helmet that don't pass this standard... also there is the mips technology now apparently which seems to improve dramatically the safety of the helmet.

 You can try a MET Parachute now- I really like mine.

 You'll like them man. I have a Fox right now and you totally forget about them - the weight is like an XC helmet. Such a good upgrade for the sport.

 Agreed. l also like the Ruckus, even for XC because it has the best zippered pockets.

 @iamamodel: trash the back of the hip pocket is the best of all I've tried & never gets muck on it

 You are saying you want them to go.... Head to head?

 @bigtim: butting heads, neck n neck

 Here´s six light fullfaces/convertibles tested and rated, doesn´t inculde the TLD though. They even tried bashing the chinbars and the result: all of them do the job they´re supposed to. So pretty much anything that fits your head will do just fine.

enduro-mtb.com/en/lightweight-convertible-full-face-helmets-review

 @toaster29: Thanks, but I've already read that article. (It was interesting.) This statement is why I'm asking about comparing it against the ProFrame: "The standout performers when it comes to chin guard protection were the Fox Proframe and MET Parachute, both of which survived four massive impacts with some cracking but no loss of structural integrity."

 @toaster29: You misread the article, the majority of the tested helmets did not pass the DH certification

 You just described me..... now I have to go and have a long hard look at myself

 tell that to Ronnie Mac

 Finally enduro helmtes are coming. Surprising that consumers are so often ahead of what the bike industry offers. When tld introduced their a1 as their enduro helmet I had expressed my disappointment, saying a light full face would be an enduro helmet and not that slightly extended xc shell. The tld guy quite aggressively answered d3 is perfect for enduro and I don't know what I am talking about. Et voilà, 3 years later.

 @EnduroManiac: Agreed, to me it seems like Troy Lee felt they need to offer a product that competes with the Fox Pro frame but they really didn’t push the envelope with the design, instead they just made their version of a Fox Pro frame. I think they missed an opportunity to create something ground breaking enough to move the trail helmet market into full face designs. Create a stylish, light, highly vented, full coverage trail helmet that I can pedal in all day. Does it need to be DH certified? I don’t know. Does the chin bar need to come off? Probably not because we will all take if off and forget it at the truck. Now find 5 of your coolest sponsored enduro riders to wear the new helmet in every photo and not only will you create demand for the product you will be moving the industry into a safer era. Safer riders equals more riders!

 And why not whith the new Bell ?
What I miss in TLD and Fox is the micro adjuster at the back... Is going to be much heat if you have to do it with foams... plus in Proframe adjust well to my head and still moves some times..

 @TPLRacing: I mean, if i can breathe normally and not being too hot, i don't mind the chinbar not being removable.

 I have a Met Parachute and a Giro Chronicle, I feel the same way.

 MET Parachute does

 @TheOriginalTwoTone: I know. I have one but it will be 3 years old come December, so will be looking for something new

 @handynzl: check out the Leatt DBX 3.0 - I had the Proframe before and loved it, I like the DBX better.

 Somehow, fanny packs have made it into mountain biking. Imagine riding with a fanny pack 10 years ago - you'd get boo'd right out of the woods. Now dudes think they look cool. Next year, I'll be wearing my Fox proframe to dinner.

 There was a prorider in my country who died riding his bike to get some bread, he didn't have a helmet one. Even when going uphill one can still hit the face into the ground. I'd rather be the muppet than the dead body.

 geez. stay on your bike every now and then

 @bizutch: yeah

 Maybe you should look up the solid black ruckus that has black TLD logos on it? That’s what i’ve had last year atleast.

 or buy a non-TLD shirt. Problem solved.

 or t-shirt in the car for after ride stops. From experience, those looks you're getting is because you stink, not because you're brightly coloured

 @AyJayDoubleyou: too much laundry to do with your method. clean shirt, sweaty body.

 I do the same with my camlbak pslos

 Palos

 This is what I do with the leatt dbx, works out great!

 YES

 Would MIPS work in a full face? It seems like there's not really anywhere for the shell to slip to when it's fitted all the way around your face.

 @danprisk: Since no one can tell if MIPS works at all, the question if it works in a full face helmet is probably moot.