Rocky Mountain Slayer SS - First Look

 I agree and RM will be releasing it for a much cheaper price than trek ever would! great move in my opinion

 I think I'm in love...

 then go buy a double but all the rm riders will do this is going to be sick! still riding my SS ltd from 2010....

 sorry but whats a p-slope? (p =previous slope?)

 hahaha, no, its the specialized slopestyle that the claw and soderstrom are riding

 I asked Trek about releasing remedy ss, they don´t plan this... I dont understand why so many kids/Semenuk fans would buy it even for the Trek prices

 P-Slope= Progressive slopestyle!

 P-Slope is a rip off of the dobermann le pink

 It it actually quite a bit different....

 Just because you use aluminum tubing and different dropouts doesn't make it that different. Go take a look at the p-slope and the le pink and see how similar it is.

 Or put a dropper post on it and have a real aggressive trail bike.

 Well, I'll take two.

 I actually did go look at them and I agree with you that they are simmilar, but there are quite a few big differences....

 this almost looks better than the trek?

 BUYING THIS BIKE
FINALLY SOME COMPANY ACTAULY REALEASE'S THE f*ckING FRAME
AND A COMPLETE TOO?
JESUS H

pardon my french

 why is the head-angle 69?

 Finally. Want. Now.

 @pabail thats standard slope geo and virgin teens will get incentive to buy a bike with "69"

 that is a damn sexy bike, and at a really good price. good move rocky mountain. clearly there is a growing market for slopestyle bikes and its about time bike companies start giving the customer what they want

 ABD Bikes will be releasing a Slopestyle frame soon. Facebook them. It looks seriously hot.

www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=460917260599529&set=a.460917247266197.112188.170697192954872&type=1&theater

 Rider656, one word, 8 letters: Freeride.

 not quite freeride either... those are usually 180mm (giant faith type thing) but yes it would work as well as downhill but slopestyle is a better description as it's made for that..

 Looks like the Cove Hooker that Gully developed there too.....coincidence?

 yup it sure looks like a bike as well.

 well id much rather support a company like rm than trek anyways

 canadian companies rock. plain and simple. a remedy SS would be around 2,100$ knowing trek as well...

 I give you props immediately for mentioning SLAYER.

 Nobody except rocky mountain uses the smoothlink design as its patented, and owned by them. You're mistaken visually similar looking designs from other brands for what Rocky uses.

 Can you tell me what's the difference between the Smooth Link and let's say the FSR (they look similar). I can not figure it out? Pivot placement maybe?

 @Lehel-NS, Smooth Links pivot is above the rear axle, FSR is below.

 Konas are single pivot, as the rear pivot is on the seat stay. Smooth Link and FSR both have much better wheel paths and less problems do to braking force. The only thing similar to a Kona is the use of a rocker link to actuate the shock, something that is getting to be very common on bikes.

 visual similarities actually meaning nothing when you do the maths, and this can be felt in the real world

very small changes in pivot locations create noticeable differences in the real world

as an example, people often lump any "Horst Pivot" (chainstay pivot) four-bar frames together, but as anyone who has owned Specialized, Devinci (pre Split Pivot), Ellsworth, La Pierre, Rocky Mountain, etc. can tell you, they all ride very differently due to the specific design of the suspension system including the shock tune

even more recent models of Specialized FSR ride VERY differently to the older Specialized FSR models!

and to answer @freerydscott's information about Kona's (and any faux-bar with seatstay mounted pivot i.e. not a horst pivot), I found these can have very specific advantages for efficient pedalling when designed properly

although they will always suffer from brake induced squatting which means a skipping or bouncing wheel when braking hard on the rough ground

the Banshee Wildcard and Scythe were very good examples of brilliant faux-bar designs, and rode nothing like a Konas despite the visual similarities, but definitely suffered from brake squat on rougher trails compared to the FSR style bikes



a question about this Rocky MTN SS frame (which looks sick btw!), how much chain growth is there? could you run a YESS suspension chain tensioner device if you wanted to run singlespeed? or would you be limited to a 1 x 9 or 1 x 10 setup?

 Horst links are pivots between the chainstays and seatstays, located ahead and significantly below the axle. Rocky's Smoothlink doesn't employ a horst-link. The pivot is above the axle. Similarly Ellsworth's ICT system similarly isn't a horst-link because the pivot is in line with the axle. Trek/DW's two variations on split pivots again aren't horst-links because the link is concentric with the axle.

 Thanks for the detailed answers, especially to hampsteadbandit. Cheers!

 Give me the rocker linkage, specially since i listen to slayer for 25 years. I already been thru it with horst links, too much leverage on top shock bolt. That rocker link helps alot, like on the giant maestro. Smooth link sounds pretty smooth but look same as kona. Without a rockout link it really is just a horst bike.

 ^ WHAT?!

 Yeah I know,... that was a surreal moment of nonsense there. And especially since the definition of a rocker link, is simply a link that rocks back and forth about a pivot point. And almost every four bar-linkage employs rocker links to drive the shock.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-bar_linkage

Kona, Jamis and many brands employ what is referred to in the bike industry as a faux-bar linkage, because while it looks like a four-bar linkage, in reality it is merely a low single-pivot cantilever beam with a series of extra links to drive the shock and reinforce the axle end of the swingarm. The Santa Cruz Butcher and Nickle (and their original Tazmon model) for example employ single rocker links between the swingarm and shock, Kona's employ two rocker links. The GT RTS series bikes employed a single rocker link located under the BB shell that drove a long shaft shock thru a hole in the seat tube, and connected to the bottom of a triangular-truss high pivot swingarm.

 @deeeight

thanks for the correction about Horst Pivots, I understand your point of view and having worked as an industrial designer on bicycle suspension frames I agree with your comments about the specifics of the "Horst Pivot"

the point I was trying to make was that the consumer market has enough troubles understanding the radical differences between a four-bar (chainstay pivot) and faux-bar (seatstay pivot) without us introducing the further complexities of the various locations for chainstay pivots

something interesting about a brand like Specialized is how much manipulation they have applied to the location of the original "Horst Pivot" (FSR Patent) to get suspension difference effects on their different frame platforms both in previous model years....(going back to the early-mid 90s)

....and even during the current years (2012-2013) for different models (look at the pivot locations on Epic, Stumpjumper, SX, SXT, Demo, Enduro, Camber, etc.)

 im sorry but when i see kona giant trek and this its all the same to me

 Then get some glasses.

 Having worked in the bike industry longer than YOU have been alive i can honestly say all the walking dictionary fancy lads can go powder they ass together.

 @shishka

hear where you are coming from there...

first bike industry job was in 1991, after years of semi-pro BMX racing and mountain biking

opened my own suspension frame manufacturing company (Bombproof Bikes) in 1993 with offices in the North-East of England, and a factory in Cairns, Australia...buying suspension technology directly from Mr. Horst Leitner (AMP Research) prior to his collaboration with Specialized Bicycles

 Cool i remember amp, glad they evolved beyond that design. Lets see 1991 i was riding a pimped gt avalanche in central park before we got outlawed up there. I with you, bmx youth racing is the best way to start out. If they only had rm slayers when i was 12 years old lol.

 Hardly anybody NOT a boutique brand actually makes bikes in their country of origin...unless the brand is Taiwanese or Chinese in origin. Crying over overseas production is like crying over spilled milk.

 Devinci's are still handmade in Quebec

 They are boutique bikes...

 blk mrkt made in california

 Rocky's foreign factories are built exactly the same as their canadian ones were. It's not like once you go overseas you just degrade your welding quality or your jigs are set up wrong; don't ya know they have smart talented people over there too?

 I'm not bashing them for going overseas. I have a taiwanese RM Altitude and its a great bike, I just wish they were still made in Canada.

 only the mob is made in Cali...the rest of their frames come from japan

 also, it's not really a quality issue. that's money not being spent in the canadian economy, and jobs not going to canadians.

 Rocky Mountain is NOT a boutique bike brand....they produce nearly a million bikes a year, and the canadian factories owned by ProCycle combined don't add up to anywhere near that level of production, not that its cost effective to do more than prototyping in canada for the rocky brand. They MIGHT still make the flatlines here, but that's about it now. About the most that can be said for RMB is at least they paint the frames in country and assemble the bikes here.

As to Devinci... no...only selected high end models are welded in quebec, the majority of their production is overseas as well and has been for a good number of years.

As to the economic argument... well for starters that's pretty moronic thinking. You want to have canadian jobs, you have to convince canadians to not demand outrageous salaries for the work involved, and provincial governments to be more reasonable on corporate taxes, and then you have to raise the prices of the models as well for the companies to still be competitive with the ones that just buy frames from taiwan or china (like Specialized).

 My cove shcoker was made in vancouver

 Thats a load of rubbish, the 'Canadian Made' Rocky Mountain frames were made of cheese, i snapped two front ends and 3 swingarms on my last RM, the fact they are now made in Taiwan makes me think this bike might be pretty good

 @deeeight - might want to check your facts on how many bikes Rocky Mountain makes each year. Neither RMB, nor Procycle's other bike brand, Miele come close to even 1/10th of your number.

 "You want to have canadian jobs, you have to convince canadians to not demand outrageous salaries for the work involved"

I really hate that line of thinking, please tell me if I missed something because it really doesn't make any sense to me. The guy who asks a good salary for assembling/welding/painting bikes is greedy but the guys higher up who pocket millions, that's totally alright? Don't forget that their outrageous salaries are also included in the price of your bike but I never see anybody mention that, it's always the worker's fault. It's not because people in china are paid like shit that people in canada are asking too much. Maybe consumers should be ready to pay what it costs to give fellow canadian workers a decent salary (and a job).

 Oh and pardon my cynism but I HIGHLY doubt that we'd see a decline in bike prices down the road if the provincial/federal government decided to abolish corporate taxes entirely.

 "Maybe consumers should be ready to pay what it costs to give fellow canadian workers a decent salary (and a job)."

You are exactly right on this point. However, consumers NEVER want to pay what it costs. Everyone wants a good deal, and for good reason too. The problem is that people want the best of both worlds. Cheap products, and locally made products. Well, sorry, you can't have both.

And just to be clear - people in China and Taiwan aren't paid "shit". Sure, it's a lot lower than our wages here, but their cost of living is a lot less too. Skilled labourers in the East are paid good wages and make decent livings.

 They probably aren't paid shit but from what I read/see they usually don't have great working conditions. And when their salary/conditions get decent, manufacturers usually move production to a country where workers have lesser work conditions and are paid cheaper wages. We could argue forever about the pros and cons of that method but honestly I'd rather pay more for a quality frame if I knew the men/women who did it are canadian citizens that make a decent living and have decent working conditions but that's just me (and I'm far from being rich). We also have a bunch of alu plants here. Making the tubing in canada would probably be more expensive but probably a lot greener also...

 Look at the price of an Xprezo then... they're a boutique brand, manufacturing in quebec. For the features their bikes offer, you can get a designed in america, / made in asia Salsa imported here to canada for about 2k LESS and backed by a warranty and company that will be around for many years to come. Xprezo is what, the third or fourth spin-off brand from the original Balfa boys ? All the others have failed or are on the verge of failure. Balfa themselves only lasted as a brand a couple more years after Procycle took them over. Why? Because the number of actual consumers who will pay the price premium for made in canada bikes, here in canada, is ridiculously tiny. Certainly not enough to expand beyond the niche/boutique market level.

 Yeah, they're more expensive. Everybody I know who had to deal with them told me that they have much better customer service than any other cheaper brand and that the simplicity of the pivot design makes them pretty much indestructible. I also remember someone telling me that for like a few hundred bucks you can get a complete overhaul of your frame and they'll sandblast it and paint it the color you want. I'm not sure how true that is but I have a hard time to imagine the bigger brands offer than kind of stuff. I'd strongly consider them for my next frame. So yeah, in the end I don't think it's the wages that are problematic but the attitude of consumers toward what they buy in general. Look at the bike industry, consumers are so caught up in planned obsolescence it's not even funny yet not a lot of people seem to notice. Just yesterday I was talking to someone who sold his 2012 nomad C and is waiting on the 2013 nomad C solely to get next year's new color...

 @deeeight

as you know, Devinci make all their aluminium-alloy suspension frames in Quebec

its no secret that their carbon fibre (road) and aluminium alloy MTB hardtail frames, plus aluminium alloy hybrid and road frames are made in Asia

I wonder with the Wilson SP going fully carbon fibre, plus the Dixon SP to follow...what this means for domestic production in Quebec?

 @PLC07

Have you ever saw a high profile factory in Taiwan ? They not only aren't paid shit but their conditions are on par with most Western factories, some of them are WAY above in working conditions than most of their Western counterparts. I believe there is videos/pictures of the DT Swiss factory in Taiwan right here on Pinkbike, search a bit and you'll be surprised on how these factories actually operate.

 Its capitalism. If you want your company to makes loads of cash and survive, then you have to bend over and take it like a champ and offer the consumers what they want and what they want to pay.

On the other hand, we have all been involved in sending production of goods overseas and we have all encouraged companies to keep their production over there by demanding more for less.

Even if the bike frame is made where you want it to be, we live in a global world now. Relying on purely "local" goods does not exist anymore. If the frame was made in Canada, where do you think the aluminum or steel came from to make the frame? Where do all of the components come from that you put on that bike? And the plastics and metals that go into all of those things.. And you can keep going like this with your car, house, house products.

Its crazy and there is no way we can stop it haha

 aluminum is produced in chicoutimi, same place that devinci makes their bikes (fs aluminum anyway) - this is probably one of the reasons that they still make them there.

 Aluminium is made in chicoutimi but the tubing isn't made there. If I remember correctly, the tubing is made in taiwan and then exported to devinci's factory in chicoutimi to be assembled/welded/painted there. I don't think devinci has a say in where the aluminium for the tubing comes from, only in which grade they want their stuff made of. I guess they just order the tubing how they want it and that's it. As far as I know, I don't think there is a single high quality mountain bike manufacturer who makes their own tubing.

 BLACK market made in Taiwan, which is better than made in California

 Yeah there's no way Devinci is getting their tubesets made in quebec... they like many other brands now employ complex hydro-formed tube sets and the factories that are setup to make tubing specifically for the bicycle market are all located in Asia. If there was a dedicated factory for that in canada, then Norco, Rocky Mountain, Devinci and every other canadian brand would have stuck with canadian manufacturing for their entire model range. Hell, american manufacturers would be ordering their tubing from canada also.

 @PLC07 and @ deeeight

from talking to my close contacts who are heavily involved with Devinci management, the aluminium alloy is actually produced in Chicoutimi because one of the largest aluminium producers in the World is based there (Rio Tinto Alcan Inc. )

the unfinished tubeset is then sent to Taiwan to XXXXXXXXX where the tubing is "processed" which includes butting and hydroforming, before being shipped back to Devinci where the tubing is cut / mitred, fitted into the jigs, tacked, aligned, welded, aligned and heat treated, before the finishing processes start

if anything, this is the insane fact of Globalisation, that materials (whether it is aluminium alloy tubesets for bicycles or food products requiring processing and canning) are sent from country to country for "processing" because its cheaper than doing it "in country"

from what I understand about hydroforming, its extremely expensive in terms of the initial 'setup costs' and so the Taiwanese factories that have made this investment and have the expertise are in heavy demand for this processing treatment.


one thing I really like about Devinci's hydroforming is that when you carefully inspect their framesets, you can realise the hydroforming was done for subtle. structural reasons, rather than aesthetic reasons


something else interesting about Devinci with their Quebec based plant, is the amount of prototype fabrication they have done for customers like Dave Weagle in the past

 Very interesting, thank you for correcting our wrong assumptions. I hear they have a bunch of nice trails around their plant, I'm going to schedule a trip there later this year and try to visit the place of birth of my AM bike hehe.

 excellent post, hampstead bandit

 Beautiful ride and nice style on ya bro!

 Your soul likely wasn't welded in canada either. Rocky started out the same way Specialized did. They designed in-country but had the factories in asia (Japan originally) weld up the frames for them, and then they painted/decal'ed them in canada. Eventually and for just under a decade, they DID transition to welding up the frames themselves in canada but that was only on the upper price level bikes. Fusions and Hammers which in 1991 were a $800 and $999 bike respectively... were still welded in Japan, as were all the non-custom order Al models (Stratos, Experience, Cirrus), but you had to step up to things like the Equipe and above to get a steel frame brazed/welded in canada. The Soul was a lower level model than even the Fusion. Under canadian trade laws... merely PAINTING a frame and assembling the bicycle in canada is enough to slap a "made in canada" sticker onto it.

 When I purchased the soul it was a level above the fusion. Spec wise anyways. Prolly exact same frame though. That's troubling that I was told and lead to believe it was completely made in Canada. I hate being lied to. I imagine Rockies are still amazing just wish it was economically viable to still make them here.

 Yeah, sure. I'll glady take it off your hands.

 Nevermind. www.ridemonkey.com/forums/f156/history-iscg-226634 After reading up on it I can't believe they went with ISCG 03. They must have a really good reason, or it's a typo.

 My 2010 Glory has ISCG 03 tabs, i think its because the tabs are on of the last things they worry about, and sometimes ISCG 05 tabs wont fit around things like suspension linkages etc, but i could be wrong.

 If you look at the frame only picture after looking at the diagrams and article that you just put up the link to, it is quite clearly the new standard ISCG-05. It was a typo, SORT IT OUT PINKBIKE!

 www.e13components.com/images/iscg.jpg

It's nearly impossible to tell the difference from a photo (8.3mm), but they do appear to be shorter, closer tabs to the BB. Which would entail they are the old standard.

Again, hard to tell. But, little as makes no difference in performance.

 fail. almost all new bikes have iscg 05. lighter? come on!!

 ISCG05 is designed to fit around standard external-BB cranks. ISCG03 will not work properly with a crank that uses an external bottom bracket, as it was designed to work with older, 3-piece style cranks (two arms and a bottom bracket).

 Simply wrong, all 5 of the DH frames I've had, my trail bike and my hardtail have all had ISCG OLD/03 with guides mounted and every one has had out board BB 2 piece style cranks including Shimano, Raceface and e13.

The best reason I can think of is to reduce interference with the main pivot, which is quite close to the BB on most Rocky's.

 Seriously? Fail?
ISCG-05 was made because they were planning to introduce a bb (in 06 i think) with a diameter much larger (judging by the diameter difference between ISCG and ISCG-05, id guess about 13mm) than the ones known today, and because of which, the (normal) ISCG tabs would have been too small.
As it often happens in the world engineering and marketing, they started manufacturing the ISCG-05 before the new bb to introduce the new standard more gradually. Yet this process backfired as the new bb standard was scrapped (or possibly postponed and now brought back in E-13's crank bearings @seraph, i cant comment on that as i havent gotten to play with any yet), and so here we now have two standards.
ISCG is only called ISCG old or ISCG-03 because they needed a name

 I've been riding a Flatline WC all season that came with e13 cranks and an ISCG old LG1+ guide. Are you telling me that I've imagined it working perfectly for the last 4 months?

I know the reasoning behind ISCG 05 and I know that the bearing portion of an e13 BB cup will not pass through an ISCG old back plate, but it doesn't have to, to be set up properly.

 I have Shimano Saint cranks and BB and have ISCG Old tabs, and my LG1+ fits perfectly around the BB.

 ISCG or ISCG-05 - doesn't make one lick of difference to the end user. The larger BCD of 05 can be a limitation to frame design (pivots especially), thus Giant, Trek, and Rocky almost exclusively use the original standard, ISCG.

Sereph - you're COMPLETELY wrong.

 sick paint job, but looks better when its raw!

 Looks like regular tapered 1 1/8" to 1.5"

 there are 2 or 3 different standards ...

 Manitou Circus Expert Fork is internally adjustable to 80, 100 or 130mm.

 130mm

 Actually there not adjustable the 100mm is adjustible to 80mm thats it the 130 is not able to be lowered

 cant it be internally adjusted?

 Nope i asked manitou and they said nope

 word. tis a sweet looking bike.

 except that this is not a Horst Link

 agh whatever you wanna call it, once you have an understanding of what the Horst-link achieves you'd realise this is the same deal, it uses the chainstay pivot to help direct braking forces into the rocker link, essentially using the seatstay as a brake arm, having the link slightly apart from the axle will allow for some slight brake squat still, having the link together with the axle i.e. Trek ABP is the best way

 They were probably trying to show the versatility of the bike...

 I'm gonna take a stab in the dark and say around 1200USD. (b/c the complete isn't that expensive(compared to how expensive 99% of complete bikes are today))

 yup! they said it on Facebook

 Any idea on the price for the frameset?

 they didn't say unfortunately

 I like. Might even be my next xc frame... trololol. But really, might ditch the xc frame for this one day. Longer top tube shorter stays, sounds good for aggressive trail with short stem.

 Exactly what I want thinking, Want One!!

 I want one too. This bike could be one versitile machine set up with the proper spec. I like it.

 The only qualm I have is the Axle. Because Since I'm a rocky dealer. I plan on purchasing maybe the complete. But If I was to get the frame. Anyone who would want it would likely be upgrading from a dirt jumper and will likely have a 135x10mm axle. Regardless, The frame looks sick. Im stoked on it.

 Yeah i could see that being a problem for a lot of people

 yea, but don't alot of the newer hubs work with both standards? none the less, someone who makes a reliable adapter will make some money.

 @Tate27: What's wrong with the rear axle??? Is it that its "too wide" for your tastes??? I'm curious cause it seems that the 142x12 stuff is really highly regarded and would make the rear end even stiffer... I'm interested to hear why you prefer 135x10.

Edit: NM, I see what you're saying: if people want to upgrade to this frame from a 135mm spaced frame they'll need new hubs at least... got it. Although I'm with Groghunter, don't they have 135mm hubs that will fit 142mm frames with new end-caps??? Seems like the best of both worlds there aye. You could have one set of wheels and swap the between frames depending on wether you want a fully or a HT. But I do see your point aye.

 The problem is soley the axle size, Sure its regarded. But Look at the market your aiming to when producing a frame like this

 Yeah, I can see that being an issue. And you're espescially right when you look at the very specific market segment that SS bikes occupy aye.

R-Trailking-S: I agree with you man. I love a bike with a long TT and short stays for an "all arounder" aye. You can run a really short stem making it handle better, still have room to pedal and stretch out with the longer TT and the short CS's make ANY bike that much ore "loftable"... my older P2 HT has a 24+" TT and REALLY short CS's. I run a 40mm stem and it doubles as a DJ bike and my "XC rig" with only a seat/post swap for whatever Im riding. Long TT's and short TT's are the SHIZNIT-o-BAMSNIPSNAPSACK!!!!! I wish more companies would make frames with this in mind across the board (I notice the new Treks are going down this path, and I think, along with the added standover clearence, it's gonna make for some REAL fun new bikes on the market)