Deviate Cycles Release PRO Builds for Claymore & Highlander II

 @TheRamma: you sure about that?

 @dresendsit: Like, I have insider information on warranty rates from Shimano? No.

You can google "leaky caliper piston seals mtb," and count the number of Shimano posts vs. all other brands (hint, it's all Shimano posts, usually XT or XTR). Not science, but it's my experience, and a lot of peoples. They're not high end brakes compared to TRP, SRAM, Formula, Hope, or Hayes.

 @TheRamma: For me, they are great brakes that have lasted me multiple seasons and work way better than the sram brakes I had before. Would highly recommend to any of my friends. And my other friends that have them in my riding group love them too. Have no desire to run anything else. Calling them a "hard pass" seems funny.

 @dresendsit: fair, I wouldn't expect my experience to change your mind.

 @TheRamma: Just had two different pairs of XT fail within a week of each other. One set is about 2 seasons old, one set is 15 rides old. Both sets are leaking at the levers. Moving on to Dominions on both bikes.

 @Jvhowube: same here, leaking.everywhere. Ive had XTR’s and XT’s, they’ve both leaked real bad. Moves on to SRAM’s Code RSC’s, love em. Also i have had some TRP DHR EVOS, they are my favorite for sure.

 Does anyone have any success with aftermarket pistons?

 @Jvhowube: I've got 3 XT levers, 2 of which arrived with the freestroke screw absolutely jammed solid (yes I know it's pointless, it can help bleeding, its still annoying that it wont move). Not loving that level of QC

 @mashrv1: it seems to me the last 10 yrs Shimano quality has really gone down. Leaky levers, threads stripping out and derailleurs just falling apart. My next bike will not have any Shimano on it.

 @dresendsit: you can also search "wandering bite point" on google and find hundreds of posts about shimano brakes. i am a shimano drivetrain guy, but their brakes are absolute crap compared to other brands who focus more on brakes. but like what was already said, i don't expect other's experiences to change your mind. what was said was an opinion on an overall package.

 @Freddye: sort of, when I snapped my pistons the first time i used then and it didnt help because i actually wore a spot in the caliper that was on the gasket and that was making my brakes leak. Be sure to just check for that first.

 @novajustin: I don't need to google it, I've been riding them for years so i'm pretty familiar. For me the "wandering bite" simply isn't an issue on newer models. I think that feedback is from earlier generations. It's pretty minimal and doesn't impact my ability to stop... ever. They are on/off feeling so I think there's an argument against modulation but I really enjoy the power. My hands/fingers never get tired on long descents and I love how quickly they grab. They are killer brakes.

 @TheRamma: SRAM are high end now? Ha.

 @dresendsit: so your point is that you don't even want to try anything other than Shimano, and you don't want to listen to people who had different experiences with Shimano brakes than you did. Clearly, that's a recipe that's going to lead to being really well-informed.

@adam3419 - Not all SRAM, cause they make some hot garbage (as does any brand that is catering to low end OEM specs), but Code RSCs are pretty great brakes. Show me something else that- has working bite point adjustment (not Shimano), is rebuildable (again not Shimano), and is made by a company that will do prompt recalls/technical bulletins (not Shimano, see recent crank problems and WBP). There are some better brakes out there, but not weepy, unreliable XTs.

 @TheRamma: did Shimano shit in your bed or something, seems like half your comments are hating on their brakes or praising sram

 @TheRamma: read my previous posts. I had sram brakes for a couple years and like shimano much more. No, I don’t have much desire to try TRP or Magura etc because the shimano work really well… maybe some day, but I’m definitely not going back to sram in the brake department.

 @Upduro: lol, not sure when I praised SRAM, lately been on cura 4s and really liking those. Don't even own SRAM brakes now. Do have some shimanos in the garage, and they've aged like milk.

The problem is Shimano fanbois online, telling people that disposable brakes with an unresolved flaw are GrEaT. Actually pointing out that they're kinda shit might encourage Shimano to address the problems and make a better product (rebuildable, not prone to wandering bite point). They have great power, and could be high end, it's just stupid corporate decisions. Why cover for that? SRAM, Hope, TRP, and formula all support their users better.

 @dresendsit: the problem is that you are online telling everyone how great XTs are, when you haven't ridden the competition, nor will you listen to the abundant evidence that XTs have reliability issues.

I did exaggerate in saying XTs were a deal breaker, but with so many companies putting better brakes on top end builds, most people should factor that in. It would be cool if Shimano stopped being shitty about their brakes, no idea why their fans give them a pass so readily.

 @dresendsit: either you must have gotten a unicorn set of XT brakes or you're just too stubborn to admit that the XT's have faults. the wandering bite point affects all of shimano's brakes. I just bought a brand new bike in may that came with XT 4 piston brakes and the first ride out they started pulling to the grip on chattery sections of trail. it sounds like you haven't tried anything from TRP, hope, magura, or hayes.

even every PB bike review that comes with shimano brakes has pointed out how unreliable they are.

 @novajustin: well, the standard seems to be "problems have to happen to every user to be considered important."

Not every ford pinto exploded...

 @TheRamma: it's a weird take that's for sure. even when he said "that must be from earlier generations" and then followed up with "it's pretty minimal". so apparently he is fine with brakes that could suddenly pull to the grip at any moment. not a feeling i like to experience while dropping into a spicy line, but to each their own. i still don't think he should be spreading the praise of shimano while completely omitting that they have well known issues.

all i know is on my new tracer that came with XT 4 pistons i gave them one ride and was almost instantly reminded why i jumped ship and went to hayes. pulled them off immediately and swapped my hayes over from my old ride.

 @TheRamma: My current bike came with XT's and they've been performing great. So far. If and when they crap the bed, then I'm going to either TRP's or Dominions.

 6.6k is frankly a joke. Double it then we talk.

 @browner: not a penny under 15k, you god damned poor!

 @Mtbdialed: £13.2K is $16K, so I don't know what you're on about. @browner is clearly talking in GBP, being Scottish and you ob(li)viously talk in USD, being American.

Just sayin' ;P

 @megatryn: I used no symbol

so being scandanavian means you obviously talk in zero sense of humor.

just sayin!

 @Mtbdialed: Oh, sorry, I forgot that some of you americans have zero sense of self sarcasm humor. You have my deepest apologies.

XD

 No UDH.

 Not sure. Where is the mob standing with high pivot these days? The Second Coming in and idler pulley, or overhyped gimmick the industry has foisted upon us to sell more bikes? I’ve lost track.

 @TheR: LOL! IMO, like any suspension design, it's all in the execution.

 @Juggafat: Agreed. Give me the Deviate claymore with a UDH interface and a tweaked/lower anti-rise and I am 100% in.

I don't absolutely have to have Sram Transmission this instant. But it does seem like an awesome system and its going to be the standard going forward. Would feel like a bummer to buy a new bike that isn't current on something like that.

 Per a commenter below: “horrible cable routing”

I agree, it should be through the headset.

 @Juggafat: UDH coming to our entire line-up in a matter of weeks. Pro builds will be available with UDH, however, the 25% off discounted price will not apply! Worth noting that existing owners will have the option to purchase a UDH swingarm for our crash replacement pricing, if these wish to upgrade. This offer is indefinite so there will be no rush.

 @deviatecycles: yet.

 Chain retention.

 @KJP1230: Lower Anti rise for a single high single pivot means Floating brake

 @JasperTS: then they should do that. its not a new concept.

 @Mtbdialed:

Or not. I like high AR. I found it was great unless the shock was setup poorly.

Gimme dat squat

 @AgrAde: and I like super linear kinematics. same thing.....takes good shock setup.

 @deviatecycles: offering existing customers a discounted replacement swingarm to move to UDH is an awesome idea, brilliant way to look after and retain existing customers- I hope some other brands are paying attention!

 @Jmac888: I largely agree with this. But it also seems like mailing customers 5 or more derailleur hangers would have a similar effect with far fewer resources required.

Wait.

I guess some people might want to run a new SRAM T-type drivetrain. (I don’t).

New rear ends for some. Derailleur hangers for others.

 @JasperTS: Nah - it can be accomplished with a basic horst design. Forbidden (for example) is moving their line up to horst design for exactly this reason. V2 Druid this year, next year I'd expect an updated Dreadnought. This change (amongst others) caused an antirise curve of 128% down to 50% in the V2, versus a 130% down to 110% on the V1. This means that the V2 is going to be much, much more active under braking - increasingly so as you move deeper through suspension travel

The antirise on the Claymore is enormous - 140% down to ~113%. That thing is gonna be very subject to brake jack and a stiff feeling of the suspension under braking. Contrast that with 2 other well reviewed enduro/race bikes: the Specialized Enduro has an anti-rise curve of just 47-43% throughout travel (!), while the Yeti SB160 starts around 93% down to 83%.

The major drawback of the Enduro is that it suffers from really large amounts of pedal kickback, a problem that high-pivot/idler bikes address really well. I'd love to see something like the Deviate claymore, with its Enduro-similar leverage ratio, axle path, and anti-squat - but with a much more managable/lower anti-rise curve.

 @KJP1230: "the Deviate claymore, with its Enduro-similar leverage ratio, axle path, and anti-squat - but with a much more managable/lower anti-rise curve."


so the perfect bike!? man why hasn't anyone thought of that!!!!???

do you know what the relationship between anti-rise and anti-squat is?

 @Mtbdialed: Interestingly, anti-rise and anti-squat can be somewhat divorced using an idler design (compared to more conventional designs).

This is because the pedaling forces are transferred (effectively) between the idler and the chainring, rather than the chainring and the rear cog. Additionally, the idler more-or-less eliminates pedal kickback and chain growth despite a rearward axle path (which is a major "nice to have" for descending-oriented bikes).

Case in point: the Forbidden Druid V2 referenced above maintains a 137% anti-squat early in travel, despite the much improved/lowering anti-rise, rearward axle path, and progressive leverage curve.

This is why I (and seemingly, many bike companies) remain bullish on the "trend" of high pivot/idler bikes for enduro applications. Even Trek, a historic "safe" designer, has moved their Slash to the idler design.

 @KJP1230: ok, now tell me what the drawbacks of a high pivot idler design is....

 @Mtbdialed: There are some tradeoffs for sure! Namely:

1. Some degree of added wear-out parts (idler pulley itself) and potentially frame weight.
2. Added drag on the drive system, which gets worse as the chain/system gets dirtier (somewhere around 2.3% under perfect conditions, probably up to ~4% as things get dirty).

These are not "nothing". If I recall, pinkbike did a fairly controlled study, and this led to about a 1% decline in climbing performance for roughly equivalent bikes.

That said, the current Claymore that kicked off my post here already has those drawbacks. I am merely advocating for an updated rear suspension design to, in particular, eliminate some of that anti rise.

 @Mtbdialed: I should also point out, the new generation Trek Slash more or less has the exact characteristics I am suggesting in a long-travel package (which you called "the perfect bike").

Leverage: 3.1 to 2.45ish (similar to the Enduro)
Axle Path: almost entirely rearward and vertical (similar to most high pivot/idlers)
Anti-squat: about 103-104% throughout travel (will pedal well, but still less anti-squat than the V2 Forbidden)
Anti-rise: starting around 100% and falling to 64%, with about 78% in the middle of the travel where lots of braking + chunk events might occur (still more than the Enduro, but WAY less than the Deviate)

Frankly, I'll be interested to see if Forbidden brings out a V2 Dreadnaught next year with their inverted 4-bar design. If so, that could be the ticket.

 @KJP1230: well, I can confirm the V2 dread is in the works, but thats it.

regarding your perfect bike: i was being facetious, as the trade off for High Pivot is a lot more than some added drag and weight. The Slash bobs like crazy, and you have to make HP bikes waaaaaay too progressive to keep them from wallowing through the midstroke. They work well in DH bikes because you never really have to pedal them.

there is no free lunch. Yes the V2 Forbiddens are an improvement over V1, but that's only because the V1s are shockingly bad.

 @Mtbdialed: This has been a fun conversation, but you're incorrect. There is no inherent reason why a high pivot idler bike would bob any more than any other bike assuming they have comparable anti-squat characteristics. Anti squat is, explicitly, the chain's effect on impeding suspension travel when force is applied.

Any bike with anti-squat >100% will climb with minimal efficiency loss or pedal bob, although it is traditionally difficult to tune suspension with high anti-squat without also tuning in chain growth and pedal kickback (which idlers address nicely).

The new Slash has anti-squat around 104%, the current Enduro has anti-squat of about 110%, the Yeti SB160 maintains about 127% at sag. All of these values are enough to seriously reduce pedal bob, and reviewers seem to agree (both Enduro MTB and Pinkbike effectively said the Slash climbs with "minimal bob" and doesn't require a climb switch).

Personally, I am fine with a bike with anti-squat values around 105-115%. Most high pivot/idler bikes are in this ballpark and pedal quite well.

 @KJP1230: that is not true. lots of things affect anti-squat besides the claimed values....chain angle for one, gear ratio is the other major one. re: chain angle; the reason HP bikes bob more(and tend to have much higher AS values to compensate) is the the angle the chain pulls on the cassette. the higher angle means the more leverage it has. that increased angle and leverage is why the idler wears so fast! ask anyone with a forbidden v1 how long their idler is lasting!

good talk indeed! cheers

 @Mtbdialed: I don't disagree that the idlers wear out. After all, only a few teeth are touching the chain and it is transferring all of the pedaling force between the cogs and the chain ring. But the anti-squat and leverage ratios will tell the story of pedaling efficiency - just like any other bike.

 @KJP1230: interesting points. We feel that high antirise has some advantages, in particular for very fast and aggressive riders. The squating of the rear suspension under hard braking maintains the geo nicely allowing the use of sensible headangles - in our view this is one aspect that makes our bikes very all around in nature. Basically we can run a tighter HA on an enduro bike because under heavy braking the geo is maintained - therefore on mellow terrain you've got a HA that isn't too slack to be fun. Still an open debate and we are constantly testing and improving our understanding of how the kinemics translate into rider feedback, so these kind of conversations are just the ones we like to have with our riders so we can ensure our future models are as good as they can be

 have you ever had any issues with the dropper getting stuck in the frame? read some horrific things about it in a fb group, just got a highlander frame for myself, getting a bit concerned..

 @mozsombi: No issues at present, i put some carbon grease around the dropper though....every 3 months i do a maintenance run through, re-apply the dropper, stem etc, exposed to all weathers and temperatures in Scotland so always feel a little bit of tlc and shouldn't have any issues, (also i hate unidentified creaks & squeaks)

 @mozsombi: it's the same for every carbon frame, i got a dropper stuck in a carbon Devinci a couble years back, proper grease and regularly moving the post to check and you'll be fine.

 @mozsombi: Yes! I had my dropper stuck in the highlander frame and had to find a mechanic to get it out with specifically designed machine. The bike doesn't have draining holes (design omission) so water gets trapped inside the frame. You either take the dropper out and let water out through the seatube (too much faff) or drill a hole in the frame which I did. Not as bad as it sounds. All good now. Taking dropper out once in a while to re-grease and service is a good habit too.

 @skywalker909: Claymore and Highlander 2 both now have drain holes and a fibre glass layer in the seattube to prevent corrosion, although as pointed out any alloy dropper in a carbon frame will eventually seize without greasing, so removal and greasing every few months is recommended (on any frame).

 @kevinglasgow38: cheers!

 @deviatecycles: noted, thanks!

 Bear in mind you're comparing a relatively new and small company's pricing who have a line up that consists of 2 bikes to much larger and longer established companies who have huge multi discipline bike line ups. Being big will always bring costs down from a mass production and mass purchasing point...

 It wouldn't ride great and the chain would probably interfere with the seat stay. Keep in mind the idler creates the anti-squat characteristics which is why the platform pedals so well. The idler also all but eliminates chain growth, so without this you'd get significant pedal kickback. The idler wheel creates negligible drag, so there is really no reason to do this.

 A mullet upgrade is in the works.

 @deviatecycles: good to hear. I love my claymore. But wouldn't mind a 27.5 rear wheel .

 Poor little fragile thing...

 I prefer to call it set up correctly.

 Deviate are a UK company where we set up our brakes properly front on the right back on the left