In this series we will be diving deep on the inner workings and setup preferences of some of the best mechanics and athletes on the World Cup circuit, seeing what makes them tick and how they keep their race machines humming. To start things off, we're looking at brakes, one of the more open-ended areas of bike setup.
So, where to start? The first insight comes from the beautiful and timeless Val di Sole. I thought we would start with brakes (although I suspect you already worked that one out yourselves given the title above). The VDS track is one of the most brutal tracks of the year, with the bottom half littered with giant rock gardens and some brutal steep sections; it's the hardest round of the year for brakes. Add to that, it's normally one of the hottest rounds. It's a tough place if your brakes aren't right.
Our first stop was the Hayes team, where we learned a little more about their brake, the Dominion A4. The brand has seen a resurgence among privateers and top teams in the World Series which has undoubtedly caught the attention of their competitors.
The Dominion A4 brake has already achieved impressive success this year, securing victories in Lenzerheide and Leogang with Rachel Atherton and Andreas Kolb. It's safe to say that Hayes is back with a bang. But what exactly makes the new Hayes brake stand out, and how do you set it up for a downhill World Series race? To find out, we sat down with Kevin Imig from Hayes, who walked us through what's under the hood of the Dominion A4
You can read more about the features and tech of the A4s
here, but read on for Kevin's personal setup tricks and preferencees.
Are you seeing a lot of changes to riders brakes here this weekend?
A lot of riders are trying different pads, maybe they were on the full sintered pads and now they're trying the semi metallic pad just to figure out what the best combination is for them. A lot of our sponsor teams are sponsored by Galfer as well, so there's a little bit of unknown for us with all the different Galfer rotor combinations that they could be running. But yeah, definitely a lot of pad compound experimentation.
Speaking of the Galfer stuff, is it a big issue for you guys that teams are running different rotors from your rotors and in some cases different pads as well?
No, it's not too big of an issue. I think, internally and then to our riders, we don't like tell them to do this. But we're not restricting them from doing it either and we've done dyno testing on other pads in our laboratory at home. So we have a general idea of how it works. Obviously, we could do so much more testing and then get so many other rotors and more testing to do but but we feel comfortable with what they're doing, and we've got data to back it up. So not too worried.
Are you seeing a lot more service work here at Val di Sole?
Yes and no, I just I think there's this preconceived notion that brake fluid goes bad like super, super fast and it's awesome to do a bleed like this for a rider (Kevin was midway though a brake bleed when I interrupted him to chat) and you flow a whole syringe and push everything through the whole system and everything that comes out is brand spanking new, it looks exactly the same. So I think it's confidence inspiring for the riders. And then having the dual bleed ports and being able to bleed super thoroughly while it just ensures that they're not going to have fade or bubbles that'll really cause them a problem towards the end of their runs.
What's the biggest issue you see when riders come in with their brakes?
For pro riders here at the World Series, I think there's two standout ones. One, is just the brake hose olive. Yeah, we have two different types of olives, we've got a one piece and a two piece. You've heard me talking about it a little bit, they're not a screw in like some other ones, you have to press them in. Then we'll have either for the one piece olive, they'll push it on and it's like the barbs in but the olive stops right before the hose and then they put the compression nut on and crush it, then they pull the lever and the hose blows. Okay, so olive installation is a big one and we just reiterate, you know, get the J-wire olive installation tool, push it on until it stops. Or if you're using the two piece olive, the barb of the olive you can visually see it's in all the way but then as you're installing it just make sure you're pushing it in to the master cylinder as you tighten your olive and then use a torque wrench, you know, we have torque specs published, we'll share them with you no matter when you ask we give them to you, just use a torque wrench and do it right. Then number two, it's a little bit less of a problem, but our syringes we don't use like an O ring or anything. It's a taper that seats into another taper. So we'll have some guys and they just thread it in by hand and then they do the vacuum pull on it, and they'll see air kind of coming in over and over and over and they'll be like, hey, like the air is getting pulled in. It's okay just take your pliers or whatever and just give it an little extra tighten and seat those two tapers and you're good to go. Those are really the two. The two biggest issues I guess.
Kyle Beutin jumps in to say:
Something else to add too, and this is more for people that aren't necessarily familiar with the crosshair technology and just don't recognize that, we do still see quite a few, maybe not quite a few, but we see some riders and mechanics that come in and their crosshairs aren't adjusted. So I think one of the things for us to make sure is that our athletes and mechanics are all informed. It's just all of those little minut tech details that help them just consistently build a bike or setup a bike in the same way every single time. So it's not a problem, it's just one of those little extra details that makes our brake just that much easier to set up.
So if you were to give your normal rider, not a World Series racer, some advice on setting up their brake what would it be?
For your average rider, you know, when you do your initial bleed install the bleed block. Don't try to leave it open or put pads in and do it on the rotor. If you contaminate your pads it never goes well. The other thing our bleed block has this side here (on the side of the Hayes bleed block there is a tool to help your move your pistons out) and it allows you to push your pistons out and lubricate the square seals with Dot fluid. Do that on a fresh build, it's going to make the retraction super consistent, and it's going to give the rider a better feel. Then just don't mess too much with too many settings straight away. There's a bite point adjustment underneath the lever. Just don't mess with that until you've got some ride time in on the brakes. The brakes are set to the minimum bite point at the start or dead stroke. So just leave it as it is go for a couple of rides and feel it out before you really start to adjust any of that.
I then headed over to the Continental Atherton pit to talk to Andreas Kolb about how he likes to set up his Hayes Dominion A4
What's your biggest brake set up must have?
I think I really like an aggressive brake, like bitey breaking point. Yeah, like not moving in too far. And it needs to do a good stoppie. My stoppies have got way better since I have been on Hayes. It's one of the most important things. It doesn't matter if my race run is good as long as I can get a good finish area stoppie.
Are you picky with the angle of your brake lever or anything like that? Or are you pretty chill with that?
Oh, no, I think I'm pretty chill. I pretty much always stay the same. But I change it a little bit. But it sometimes changes it just depends how steep the track is and stuff
Here at Val di Sole, probably the worst track of the year for brakes, have you made any big changes your brake setup?
No, nothing really. I think we tried like just different brake pads. But yeah, that's pretty much it. We are ran some sintered pads instead of organics just to be ready for the rain. There's a 223 rotor on the front with a 200 on the back but those haven't changed from Leogang.
What is your advice for the average rider who wants to get their brakes set up right?
Get them bled all the time, I think that's a big thing. I always used to never bleed my brakes when I was a privateer, and I was always complaining. If you keep on top of it and bleed your brakes every two or three weeks then they always stay mint, and it doesn't really matter if your pads wear down a little bit. Just give them a bleed and then they're back on point. Oh and clean them, clean them all the time.
You have your levers set in an interesting way, have you made a change to them?
Yeah I have long fingers so I have them set out quite far but with only a small pull and we've changed it a little bit, like we fixed it on the front so the lever doesn't move forward, because I think I death grip quite a lot sometimes. So yeah, I definitely do it. And then Fort William at BDS, I realized that when I put my finger back on the lever that I don't like it when the lever moves forward as I reach for it so we stopped it moving forward, it just gave me a better feeling when I reached for it. It's more of a security thing for me rather than a performance thing.
Anything you say to people who are thinking about getting some Hayes brakes?
Just get them. They're cheap and really good. I was blown away by them when I first tried them, they're just so good.
Next up we have SRAM, look out for that soon.
Why do we ask non mechanics these kinds of questions?
Like honestly, setup style maybe, but no one asks for specific suspension setup information from MotoGP or F1 from the drivers. Because they drive/ride fast but aren't mechanics or engineers.
If bleeding “all the time” inspires confidence to win a WC, then bleed them all the f**king time!
1. really depends on how often you ride, so more about ride time, than once every 2 years
2. also depends on where you ride, and what sort of terrain. If youre riding steep gnarly terrian, you might want to do it more often, than mellow blue trail riding.
3. weight plays a factor as well, my buddy whos 130, doesnt need to do it as often as I might
4. Theres a possibility you dont fully understand the hows and whys of why you might want to bleed your brakes more often than not.
5. you're just trying to be controversial to get a bite from people.....theres a term for this I think
And your statement that you should bleed more because of the terrain you ride? Get out of here! That can effect WHAT brake you ride, like size, pad type, setup, etc, but not bleeding more because of the terrain.
You seem to be equating freshly bled brakes = safety, but what you should be saying is 'correctly setup (which by default means a correctly bled brake) brakes are a more significant requirement if you ride gnarly terrain.'
Are you under the impression that riding mellow green/blue trails, puts similar stresses as riding fast blues/ blacks?
or steeper terrain, where youre braking differently, more often, longer, than riding low angle terrain where you might not be braking at all?
All those heating/cooling cycles affect the expansion/contraction of pistons and seals, which allow trace amounts of air into the system, so terrain plays a big part.
I think maybe youre just misunderstanding what I mean about terrain.
Terrain, style of braking/riding, size, weight, etc all play a part on the maintenance of all parts of your bike, your brakes are no different
theres no prior examples across any sort of motorsport about ensuring everything has been stripped, rebuilt, and put back together. You should get yourself a job as a WC team advisor, you could save them a tonne of money with your incredibly progressive ideas
Provide some examples of what you're talking about. Not just opinion.
You're getting push back because you've just run your mouth with nothing to back it up. Conversely, several others have referenced how in motorsport no one bleeds brakes like we see in downhill racing.
Cite your sources dude!
Maybe take a quick breath, go back and read through my comments. I dont think I ever mentioned anything about bleeding brakes between races. theres a possibility youre jumping to conclusions about things. My original comments to you about terrain, weight, speed, etc all play a factor in amount of bleeding that one might want/feel is required.
My other comment, about the frequency of work that gets done in motorsport didnt say anything about after every race....you still with me big guy?
As far as running my mouth, gosh, you are a tough one arent you?
Pushback from a couple of internet clowns, what ever will I do, go on with my life as I suspect
good luck to you out there, better get yourself a helmet, its gonna be tough for you
good at what you do eh, good thing too.
I guess you missed the portion of sports psych where elite athletes might "need" certain things to "feel" like theyre in the zone, or the flow.
If Andreas feels that he "needs" his brakes bled, then he needs them bled, thats pretty easy to understand.
and if someone else feels that they "need" theyre brakes bled, well, then they need it.
But look at me trying to explain this to you, an advisor to WC racers....silly really
good at what you do eh, good thing too.
I guess you missed the portion of sports psych where elite athletes might "need" certain things to "feel" like theyre in the zone, or the flow.
If Andreas feels that he "needs" his brakes bled, then he needs them bled, thats pretty easy to understand.
and if someone else feels that they "need" theyre brakes bled, well, then they need it.
But look at me trying to explain this to you, an advisor to WC racers....silly really
May I refer you back to my initial comment in this thread, where I said pretty much exactly that...
Most guys I know that race full size cars do it once every couple months.
I also race dirt bikes, brake fade is common, rule of thumb is you fade your brake once you replace fluid or it will fade (boil) again quicker. Do I, nope, but if I was after best performance I would....
you just keep contradicting it
I raced moto for years, from moto to enduro. Had more than 1 bike, had race day bikes, and practice bikes. had race and qually engines.
My race day bikes, didnt come home with me, and I brought my practice bikes with me to races. while I was out on track, my practice bike got a full tear down and rebuild, full suspension rebuild, top end, muffler re-pack, full brake service. I'd take that bike home with me, and beat it for 2-3 weeks between races. My race bike got a full rebuild after every race weekend. My race engines would make it through a weekend, maybe 2 before they needed a top end.
Hell at one point, I had 125cc motor crammed into an 80 chassis (I was a small kid, and "won" my 80 clas twice, so I had to move up, but couldn't confidently hold a corner on a 125 bike)
In those days, moto brakes were not really up to the challenge, and faded quite bad by the end of a race (outdoors) especially in the heat of summer. So they got bled between races even, cause being good on the brakes, is where all the time is made up....
Hope that helps boss.
The article says the lever setup is interesting but doesn't say what and the pic is just of a brake set inboard a bit but nothing too exciting if you have big hands and like to one finger brake.
With Galfer you are paying premium prices for non-premium quality for sure. Not a fan.
Source - Owner of A4's & M9120's
Anyone have any specific tips? Caliper and rotor? Just spray with IPA and wipe off with a clean cloth?
Hayes customer service is brilliant.
At the begining I had a bit too small space between pads for rotor and very small lever pull for my liking, but it got better with time. Now lever pull is perfect, and there is no problem to set caliper without rubbing.
Rock shox reverb bleeding kit works perfectly with them (just remove the orings)
Calipers may trap some dot fluid around the pistons outside the system, so wash them carefully after bleeding. If you skip that, it may leave fiuid on the pads simulate leak.
I loved those brakes. That's a shame that master cylinders aren't anodised, but I highly recommend dominions.
I found Hayes had the best clamping force and final bite but I did not like the variable bite point I kept getting when temps got hot and their cylinders, were a bit cheap in my opinion, the bleed screw port/housing snapped on me when I was trying to rethread it. (I swear I was only using the allen bit to reattach it, its just a cap. It does not need any tq nm spec)
And onto Hope loved them, consistent lever pull, quality, basically opposite of the above. But a I found a key thing was the final bite was nowhere near the others especially on a sub 200 lbs rider with mostly steep terrain in southern california.
So I did a Shigura setup in the DOT world and did a T3 Hope lever with a Hayes Caliper, MTX pads red in front and gold rear with Galfer Shark 223/203 rotors Awesome set up so far, I am about one month into it and loving every bit of it. one thing I need to move down the front to a 203 rotor, I am finding it cooling/ optimal temp is not being reached and cooling too much but other than that so far for a 200# experienced rider Im loving it.
Curious to hear others upkeep ideas on the Dominion as, I'm always looking to hear other techies ideas and approaches!
Original lever has a nice light feel which was cool but just not my thing, I wanna feel some pull back. Other than that the quality just was not to my liking as mentioned with the bleed port screw housing around it cracking, the clamps are cheap, as well as the hardware holding it together.
I did not like the variable bite point (At least I got on the two sets I owned) when temps came up on a charging DH
As for Hope T3 - turns out it’s the other way around for me compared to you. My fingers didn’t pair happily with the T3’ shape and feel - have a friend with T3M4, i can’t seem to activate them on full power, can’t really explain it, but i just can’t press the lever at 100%, i’m doing it at may be 60-70%: completely ridiculous, i know, but this put me out of the plans to try a Hope (at least the T3). Not sure what the T4 has in its sleeve, but if the feel is not totally different than T3, i don’t think it will be a different story…
There is something real good about the brute wall of power that comes with saint....kind of missing that. But i don't miss the wandering bite point at all. Shimano has top class brake pad clearance and that is a huge plus, especially for riders who do a lot of climbing.
The Dominions have bad pad clearance and are dependent on straight rotors; the metallic pads really make an annoying noise if they rub. The power is linear and good, very controllable. Almost no wandering bite point or fade. Lever feel and shape is awesome! They do seem a bit cheap, especially with those tiny threads for the handlebar clamp. Pretty happy with them but the pad clearance and potentially weak threads kinda turn me off.
The shiguras were ok, but this setup is overrated imo. A lot of power but the bite point is really spongy. Also magnetic pistons suck. Might as well go full magura imo.
I've hear good things about shimano levers and trp dhr calipers. Mineral oil, easy to replace damaged lever with any shimano lever, clearance for 2.3mm rotors, saint pad shape....might try these next if the new saint brakes dont come out soon. Also servo wave levers with 4piston shimano phenolic caliper piston setup is apparently good for reducing wandering bite point....
My Dominions have been flawless, and I have four pair in constant use (three MTB's and an E-bike)
"Hunters Silicone Lubricant"
www.tartybikes.co.uk/lubricants_and_oils/hope_hunter_silicone_lubricant/c541p13843.html
I miss my good old Zee SLX rotors made in Japan which were excellent in term of price, efficiency and durability.
“ It doesn't matter if my race run is good as long as I can get a good finish area stoppie.”
As far as performance goes of the actual brake an disc combo, its early days, and im still on the fence on how they compare ( still running the original organic pads, which i think may be keeping them from really hooking up) . I came from a Shigura set up with xtr levers an mt5 calipers on galfa discs, which worked really well until Maydena.
No, it's not going to have anything to do with _retraction_. Piston retraction relies on the seals flexing upon brake application and then pulling the pistons back, not the pistons sliding. It might help slightly with piston advance as the pads and rotor wear, but the piston is covered with fluid on the other side, the side that will be moving into the seal when it needs to advance, so it's probably lubricated more than enough already. What pushing the pistons out does is then require you to push them back in, and then the first pulls against the full bleed block will advance the pistons to just the right place. You can accomplish the same just by pushing all the pistons back in before a bleed, no need for the offsetting thing.
I've never met anyone that has boiled their brakes with old dot fluid, and lots of people are running it in their cars, under much heavier use conditions.
I don't care that you've never encountered wandering bite point, roughly 80% of the Shimano brakes I've owned have developed it. All reviews mention it. It exists. Glad you've had good luck with your set of XTs.
The fact that Andreas Kolb is saying to bleed them all the time lol. No thank you..... Just saying!
But if Hayes wants to give me a free pair, sure I'll give them a try. Until then, TRP forever.