THE EXPLAINER
The Basics of Modern Mountain Bike Geometry
You've probably heard it said before: Geometry is the single most important factor in determining how your mountain bike will perform. It's not the only piece of the puzzle, of course, as your tired, over-worked suspension and worn-out tires also count for a lot, but it's geometry that takes the biggest slice of the what-matters-on-your-mountain-bike pie chart. Let me put it to you this way: Adding the latest Kashima-coated, 17-way adjustable suspension to your 2005 Big Bouncer won't do much beyond giving you more dials to turn before you bounce over the handlebar. But give that 'ol rig geo from 2020 and it'll instantly be easier to ride and far more capable, stock suspension notwithstanding.
Geometry has changed a lot over the last decade; numbers that used to make complete sense now seem downright scary, and terms that used to be important are less so. There were smart folks building bikes like this long before the bigger brands caught on, but it's only been in the last few years that forward-thinking geo has been (almost) universally embraced. It's probably time to have another look at modern mountain bike geometry, and while you can make it as complicated and interconnected as you want, that's not the gist of this Explainer video. Instead, we'll go over what the terms mean, what they do on the trail, and how they've evolved since that '05 Big Bouncer.
Previous Explainer episodes:Episode #1 - What's the Deal with Linkage Forks?Episode #2 - Carbon Fiber Leaf SpringsEpisode #3 - What's the Deal with Chains? Episode #4 - What's the Deal with Cross-Country Racing?
ENTER GRIM D.
I thought that contact (trail) was actually that. So, the question is how does the amount of slack change any amount of trail a bike has regardless of the specific tire size (i.e. a 27.5 will always be the same and so on)? From my limited understanding of circles and piviots the "trail" shouldn't ever change (minus a few mm's due to tire pressure. Right? Or am I totally off here? Or does this relate how much downward pressure a bike applies to the earth...?
Klein Mantra being _the_ prime example.
Just thought I'd leave that there.
My Geo appraisal is hta, sta, ett, wheelbase, then cs and reach.
And since reach does not totally limit saddle-to-bars (can be tweaked with saddle position and stem height and length), it's silly to place it so low on the list. At that point it's not swapping descending for climbing, it's just taking away descending flexibility for zero or very little uphill gain, since the climbing trade-offs can more easily be offset compared to the descending trade-offs
Hopefully we'll stop seeing so many kinked seat tubes now that seat angles are steeper (more tire clearance) and dropper posts are getting longer.
www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-US/bike/nomad/3
I do like my nomad, and I ride it so much I’d have a really hard time comparing it to any demo fleet bike that doesn’t have my suspension, tires, brakes etc...like most of us I’m particular what I’m used to.
Maybe there isn’t an answer to this, but if anyone has thoughts about maybe what weaknesses they see in that generation’s geo compared to the even more modern trend I’d appreciate it. It definitely seems to have a slacker STA than what I see nowadays (visually...I probably should start comparing the actual numbers lol). Is that all it takes to make a bike a better pedaler?
That said, based on the vid it sounds like geo is all over the place with different brands, so maybe not a comparison that’s easy to make?
It’s funny to have taken a sport so seriously but feel clueless with stuff like this. I used to struggle dialing in my suspension back in the day, but at least with that you can hunker down and start testing on the trails etc...I just don’t know how to learn what I could / would prefer from a geo shift when I can’t get a frame up demo for several days with all my same components and setup that I currently have.
Not to mention it's a couple inches too short (twss!).
Then try a bike with a longer reach (will likely have a longer front-center, too, which is really the key) and see if it's nicer to descend. Only way to know for sure. Also important is "out-front" (front center minus reach-plus), which is how far the front axle is in front of your hands. More out-front is generally more forgiving to potential OTB events.
Be aware it can take some getting used to because it will be more work to weight the front wheel, but the margin of error between too far forward (leading to OTB) and too far back (leading to unweighted front and washing out) is _much_ bigger on a longer (reach and front-center) bike, which means you can drive the front wheel into corners hard enough to get some sweet drifting or berm shredding with much less fear of going over the bars, which is just awesome.
What year is your car/truck? How about your household applicance?
So some things may matter less than others, a good set of tires and a suspension rebuild might suit a person just fine, but then at a certain point old is old, so it just depends on what you want from your stuff.
In theory, with the exception of a few outliers, bike geometry has steadily changed over time for the better, so the older your existing bike, the further you are from the current standards.
To each their own, but I figure two to three years as a "flip" point, but some folks might go five years, after that you either don't care that much, can't afford to care that much, or you just don't know any better.
If you ride a lot and you're replacing suspension, drivetrain, wheels, etc... then a new bike makes more sense.
Pistons were shot in one of my zees so I just swapped to a saint out of necessity.
I’m tired of the lack of adjustability on my lyric, but it feels questionable whether I should swap a 36/38 on there or just rebuild my lyric and deal with it until I’m ready for a frame up.
I’ve historically swapped AM bikes every 5yrs or less as I hadn’t found one I really liked the fit on, and the nomad has been my favorite so far.
I’m rambling, but I guess I just have this feeling that it’s so soon to already be building a new bike when I like the one I have. Plus it’s hard to be excited about cutting a huge check for a new frame
Up when I could just get a new fork and maybe be happy for another 3-5yrs.
Unless your bike feels too small in both positions there is absolutely no reason to upgrade. The fact that the new Nomad didn't get a steeper seat tube angle with its longer reach means it might actually be worse.
While I think the long, low, slack thing has generally been great, it's quite possible that the industry will overcorrect. They've gotten geometry wrong before! Like Gary Fisher's old G2 which cut the trail way down and gave you a bike that was twitchy as hell. I guess the Scalpel is still doing that.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwR0T5a4uuM
also, fyi when i said upgrade I should have specified that I would not upgrade to the v4 nomad...would probably look at a slightly overforked 130-150mm rear travel bike of some kind....that's a whole other can of worms...
ripmo / hightower / sb130 lunch ride....and I'm sure 10+ other solid choices.
I am riding a very similar bike to yours ( HD3) my advice is if you like it keep riding it. I have tried newer versions of bikes and found that there are trade offs more so than “upgrades”.
Longer, lower, slacker, means harder to ride thru tight and twisty single track. more reach, wheel base and slacker head angle means the bike won’t turn with leaning it over , and the front wheel will slide right out if you don’t really put weight on the front of the bike. The steeper seat angle is great fro places where you ride straight up and straight down, but not so much for flat to rolling terrain.
Are the new bikes better, maybe? Are new bikes really expensive, yes.
“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”
I'm perfectly aware of some people using that dumb term, though luckily that use is nowhere near being 'widely accepted' at least from what I've seen (YMMV). Even here it's quite rare and coming from a minority of commenters rather than editors (and invariably called out as asinine). Where exactly is it more common, the German "Bike Magazin"? That would be fitting. I think I recall someone pushing it hard under an article on NSMB and it wasn't very well received.
And where, oh where did I ever suggest caldog made the term up? You're the only one making things that I didn't say up, buddy.
Question though. Even if the term one day becomes adopted like downcountry, will it make it any less stupid? Or any less of a silly make-believe that ebikes are the norm and bikes are the oddity (which might as well be the case in some years but that's off topic)?
Hugs, "the banana guy"
Why would I 'need a new website'? Because someone on this one said something I didn't like? Now that would be weird if you ask me but hey, I won't judge if that's how you roll. Besides, where would I go, Bikeradar? I'd rather call bikes 'acoustic'.
Same thing
Slacker HTA also puts your center of gravity further behind the front wheel, making the bike less prone to endo.
There are a lot of great mountain bikers who could kick my ass on a 70°+ HTA bike, so it's not all that matters. But as far as geometry goes, it matters a lot!
The answer to your question is "depends on riding style/goals". The 60/40 might feel great for a racer who wants that front-rear balance for railing messy corners, but the jibber might want that 70/30 to keep the back wheel tucked in for manual-ability and flick-ability. Either way, it would be nice if riders up and down the size range would get the same feel for a given frame, and it is starting to become a thing (though the media's insistence that 29ers are the answer for everyone and everything doesn't help, because it's hard to get the chainstays short enough for good balance on an S or XS 29er).
A lot of road bikes adjust HTA and chainstays to make the whole range ride similiar, but its pretty rare in mountain bikes. I wish they would adjust geometry to give the same handing dynamics. XL bikes generally should have a slightly steeper HTA, and S/XS frames should have slacker ones.
Apparently I don't pay enough attention to musicians to understand basic culture references anymore.
Do I try to blame this on COVID19, or do I just accept my boring old guy card now?
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5786204
The paper only addresses 3 quad muscles and one hamstring muscle, however, and says nothing about glutes, except to note:
"only four muscles were investigated; whereas, cycling involves contribution from many other lower-limb muscles. It is recommended that future studies include other lower-limb muscles such as Gluteus Maximus, Semimembranosus, Semitendinosus, Tibialis Anterior and the Triceps Surae complex."
In summary, it actually says that going steeper improves quad effectiveness and increases hamstring activity, but it doesn't speak to glutes.
It seems like they had a hard time measuring hamstrings as well, and ultimately weren't able to deduce a significant difference as a function of STA:
"A total of 5 out of 44 (11%) data sets were eliminated due to the appearance of non-physiological signals, with most being confined to BF recordings. Excessive motion artifact associated with electrodes and leads attached to the posterior portion of the leg during the pedal cycle most likely caused this. It may also explain the higher variance in BF activity patterns reported in previous studies"
They used surface EMG, meaning they can only measure muscle activity of superficial muscles. Quads and RF are easy to palpate and give very reliable signals. That would be my guess as to muscle choices. Science can sometimes be more about what you can measure and prove rather than what they think might be going on.
As we are nerding out, here's a much more comprehensive study. It's a bit older but gives us way more information.
open.uct.ac.za/bitstream/handle/11427/27901/thesis_hsf_2018_chye_teo_choon.pdf?sequence=1
So I am getting real used to the long low stability focu
sed handling, I think I'd be confident at costco on xmas eve
Too bad my old Demo has such dated geometry I would probably be amazing with a modern bike.
So hey, donut guy, where's the Donut for the rest of us??