Bike Check: Rhys Verner's Forbidden Druid Enduro Race Build

 I need a new rear shock. Will wait for vivair.

 @senorbanana. And when do you want it...?

 What brand is that shock? Hard to tell from the graphics.

 Crazy? I was crazy once...

 Looks similar to the X2. When it's not blowing up, it's an amazing shock.

 Oh I was wondering what shock that was. Looks like a X2. But it doesn’t look like the old school Vivid though?

 @ethanrevitch: New vivid on the way, releasing sometime this year!

 @FUbob: it was one of their campaign promises.

 @ethanrevitch: It's their new prototype FR/DH air shock.

 That’s a pretty low bar for “genius”.

 @heyj: Substitute “intelligent” or “smart” if it suits you better.

 Jesse was ahead of his time.

 1000% agreed

 For balance I will add that unlike pretty much every other brake and drivetrain company, they’ve had the same clamp standard for around a decade now and it’s compatible with just about everything they make. Shimano have about a billion standards and the naming makes no sense! This is also the first time I’ve heard anyone say anything negative about matchmaker clamps

 What problem exactly a carbon bar solves?

 As someone who used to manage warranty for various companies, including some who make handlebars, I would never ever run matchmaker clamps on carbon bars. No lie, 95% of failures I saw were caused by those clamps. I'm surprised Sram have never been sued over it.

 @lkubica: they are incredibly effficient in lightening your wallet.

 @moferenc: Ha ha!!! Well said

 There’s no logical reason SRAM would ever do that. Why would they want to prime you to run anything else than the Codes?

 @lkubica: I don’t race, but carbon bars have made a big difference in hand fatigue/numbness for me.

 @gabiusmaximus: it had more to do with consumers overtightening the clamps vs a sram issue

 @avg-roadie: No, it was more to do with that clamp design being an awful piece of engineering.

 @gabiusmaximus: only issues I’ve seen working in 3 big shops over 10 years is due to over torque

 @avg-roadie: Repeating myself somewhat, but... 95% of the failures I saw when I worked as a warranty manager for various large brands, were caused by sram matchmaker clamps. Essentially every time a snapped carbon bar landed on my desk, the first thing I would do would be look for the telltale matchmaker imprint at the starting point of the breakage.

 @gabiusmaximus: I agree. Most users overtighten their brake and shifter clamps. That's why I always put some grease on the clamps and tighten them smooth enough to allow them to rotate in case of fall. That both prevents from a bar failure and a gear damage.

 @gabiusmaximus: I've run Matchmaker clamps on every single carbon bar I've ever run, and never had a problem. I also have them on carbon bars on countless customers' bikes, also without issues. Honestly I can't see how they would cause a problem. They're extremely simple and adding the shifter attachment arm doesn't add any additional stress to the clamp.

 The hundreds of bar failures I saw, almost all with matchmaker imprints at the start of the failure must be an anomalie then. My bad...

 @gabiusmaximus: sounds like user error. Torque ratings exist for a reason. If you overtighten your stem faceplate, I bet the bar would fail there.

 @seraph: Sure, but my point is that it is ALWAYS sram matchmaker clamps. I'm not here saying I always saw bars snap at the brake lever no matter what brake, I'm here saying it was always matchmaker clamps. And for the record mtbers always over torque their stems too but the number of bar failures at the the stem I saw I could count on one hand...

The matchmaker clamp is just a bad design. It pinches the bar where the clamp meets the lever body, and causes failures. It shifts on the bar if its not tight enough and scores the bar. It pinches the bar when overtight and damages the bar. Often it shifts when torqued to spec, and when tightened a tiny bit more to stop it moving, it pinches. It's just a really bad design, simple as that.

 @gabiusmaximus: you're still ignoring the fact that we see tons of Matchmakers in bikes that come through the shop, and not a single one has caused a handlebar failure. And these guys are sending 20-30 foot doubles and 5-10 foot drops, not to mention rock gardens and root sections.

Also I push down on my levers when I go off a jump, and I have yet to have my Matchmaker clamps slip. I don't use a torque wrench either, I just tighten them until they don't move when I press on them.

And for the record, I haven't seen a single Matchmaker cause a handlebar failure in the last 25 years.

 @seraph: And you are ignoring the fact that when I worked as a warranty manager (so my job was literally to have, among many other products from multiple brands, every failed bar in the entire country put in front of me, not just the bars sold by a single shop) it was ALWAYS matchmaker clamps that caused the failure. I saw 1 or 2 delaminations and maybe 10 crash damages that caused failures at random points somewhere along the bar. And I saw hundreds of failures that started exactly where the bar had been pinched by a matchmaker clamp. Not by a shimano clamp, not by a trp clamp, not by a magura clamp, ALWAYS a matchmaker clamp. I dunno what else you want me to say man. The matchmaker clamp is a terrible design.

 Like an excited black Labrador...

 @bigtim: red rocket

 That is why I am going frame up!

 Not a huge difference from the V1 Druid?
It’s a completely different suspension design…..
V1 was a dual link bike, with a solid rear triangle, V2 is more of an inverted Horst link bike

 The new Druid is a pretty big change from the last one. They've added a pivot - it's basically an inverted horst link design instead of a pure single pivot. It's totally different.

 @onawalk: should've been more specific, I meant visual design. The overall aesthetics are similar but the rear triangle is completely different and as you say, the suspension is all new as well.

 @daceto817: cool cool cool,

Also, do you think the printed weight is correct?
37lbs is a lot for a 130mm trail bike.
My Spire, is 33lbs with WAO wheels, Cushcore front and rear, GX build, with a Zeb

 @onawalk: It's build up with a basically DH build on a lightish frame. The 37lbs is mostly the build not the frame.

 @alexsin: my Spire, with a GX build, 170mm Zeb, WAO unions, with full Cushcore is 33lbs. I cant for the life of me think how this “build” is more DH than whats on my bike.
Hell my Fugitive (alloy) with full XT build and Fox 36, I9 wheels, with Cushcore is 33lbs. What exactly am I missing here?
If 37lbs is correct, there’s a 4ish lb difference between my 170 dual crown rated bike, and this Druid, that’s not a “light” frame

 @onawalk: what tires are you running?

 @Austink: EXO+, so overall a 600ish gram difference in total wheel weight (ballpark)

 @onawalk: Dude, you need to stop telling people your Fugtive with cushcore is 33 lbs... haha!

I've had 2 Fugitives and a couple Chilcotins. Both set up very similarly to yours but with lighter tannus inserts. They have all been around 36 lbs. Add full cushcore and you'd be at 37 for sure.

Maybe your scale isn't set-up properly... but there's basically no practical way a Knolly can be set up to be under 35lbs. Awesome bikes... but they are not light.

Makes your comments about your Spire suspect as well. But lots of people just don't weigh properly or are using out of wach scales and don't realize their weights are off.

 @islandforlife: Maybe,
Not sure what else to say, lighter tires on that one just 2.3's, and CushCore XC's rather than Pro.
I'll double check again, maybe I'm crazy.
Wifes Norco Sight, 37ish lbs,
Previous Sentinel, 38ish lbs, so it seems pretty close. My Fugitive is "light" feeling compared to the Sight.

Weight of my Spire falls in line of the PB tested one, 33ish lbs, assuming they had heavier control tires, and I'm on lighter ones with CushCore.

Mostly just surprised that the Druid is as weighty as it is, thats the weight of the PB tested Large Norco Range, with a coil shock. I'm not normally weight conscious, just curious where the extra weight is

 @islandforlife: weighed em again last night

15lb dumbbell, 15.02lbs
30lb dumbbell, 30.02 lbs
50lb dumbbell, 50.11 lbs

Spire, 33.42lbs, EXO+ DHF/Dissector tires, CushCore Pro
Fugitive, 33.61lbs, 2.3 DHF/Aggressor EXO tires, with XC CushCore, Its short traveled, and used as my Coaching/mellow ride bike
Sight, 36.77lbs, wifes bike, DHF/DHR EXO+ tires
Element, 28.89lbs, wifes bike, 2.3 Forecasters

Dont think my weights are suspect, as I said, my bike falls in line with the Spire in the PB field test (it had DD tires)
As far as Knollys not being under 35lbs, similar bike, but mines a medium

www.vitalmtb.com/product/guide/Bikes,3/Knolly/Fugitive-138-Dawn-Patrol-DP,33662#product-reviews-248151

 @islandforlife: Play spot the difference,
I think this is why its such a weighty "trail" bike
I cant really see much in the way of differences in the front triangle (external routing on the DH frame), and other than the bolt on dropouts, the rear looks real similar as well.

What do you think?
Maybe just different links and shock between the V2 Druid, and and an upcoming updated Dreadnaught?

bikerumor.com/forbidden-dh-bike-fort-william-world-champs

 Wanna know the rest? Hey, buy the rights

 Red Zeb Redemption

 Most of us should maybe not have left them, but there was only one way to find that out.

 I think Bruni and Finn are still running them too...

 32.99 for me please.

 I'm OK with 31.8. The question is: why should we go to 35mm bars and stems?

 I used the 35mm carbon OneUp bar for 3 years. This year switched to a 31.8 aluminum Chromag bar. Feels about the same... which is a good thing. Also think it looks great... the 35mm in comparison looks bulbous and strange now.

 never left

 Yep

 Those are also XX cranks

 @clinder: how can you standardize a size when there is no standardized body sizes. Everyone has different proportions of torso and leg lengths- this way people can find the brands whose sizes fit them and those which don’t. If you go for standardization, most people will be in between “sizes” on all brands.

 @clinder: standarization makes no sense, but I agree completely about the size. I am 180cm and happily ride 460 reach bike and would definitely not want a 480 reach bike which is todays large, simply because paired with properly long chainstays you easily hit a really long wheelbase and there are trails which penalize it. So for open bikeparky trails longer bike is fine, but for slower and tighter it just makes no sense.

 @simonconde: agreed. I’m on the boundary between medium and large but usually size up as I have short legs and a long body so a medium feels too cramped.

 @clinder: I'm the same height and weight as Rhys. I'll gladly take my 480 reach bike over my 450 reach bike on terrain like Whistler. BUT I'm also not an ex-XC rider and used to riding steep angle terrain with steep angle frames.

 I'm 5'11". I have the luxury of being able to flip my bike every year. One year went large with a 490 reach, next I went medium with a reach of 464. I prefer the large, so that's what I'm on again. I also tried out different suspension travels... went from 140/150 to 135/160 to 160/170 to 167/170 to 138/160 and now 150/160. So far I'm really enjoying the 150/160 as a bike that does everything well.

I ride on the south west coast of BC... and a fairly advanced rider that loves high speed gnarly lines and tech while dabbling in some enduro racing.

I get why guys at the top of the game would size down for the agility but their skills are on another level. For me, I much prefer that stability at high speeds from riding a longer bike. It makes such a difference for us lower skilled mortals. I skill loved my medium bike... but there is a difference that I prefer when going back to a large.

I've also been able to go mullet and back.. and that's what I'll do going forward. I feel like I can ride a larger bike, get the high speed stability yet retain a lot of the agility with a smaller rear wheel.

Also... personal preference and "to each their own" plays a big role.

 @clinder: You think the the size chart is on the large side of things? Its the "right size" cause thats what he wants to ride, end of story.
S2 is a 460, with a 77 degree SA which seems pretty bang on for a "standard" size medium to me.

How would you have a "standardization" of sizes, when there are several different factors to take into account. Dont wish for standardization, wish for better understanding. There was standardization, we used to measure seat tubes, and that was silly.

 Clearly standardization isn't a popular term. To explain what I am trying to say, is some companies base their frame size on reach, some on effective top tube angle, seat tube length used to be common, some I think play pin the tail on the donkey. There's also a huge variation of what is considered small, medium or large. Some companies mediums have reaches north of 470mm, some have mediums 460mm or less. All of this is what causes the internet arguments on frame size since most don't even know what they're arguing. It is all subjective based on the perception a n=1 case study on themselves. Lets find something measurable so sizing can be compared.

Understandable based on body proportions, preferred size of bike, riding style, skill level, local terrain someone may choose a size up or down.

I prefer to ride a 'medium' at 5'11" because I find it more agile and I can execute my own skill level better on it vs a large bike which is slower to react and only gives me an advantage in one style of terrain.

 Mmm if I understand correctly I don’t think the boot is the problem. The exit port of the brakes, including the compression hose nut, is at an angle to the cylinder. It points in towards the bars rather than parallel; I find it pretty awkward-looking.

 It’s not the boots that are dictating the path of the hydraulic line, it’s the lever body itself on the Stealth brakes. I wish they had less of an angle too.

 @mikekazimer: seems like this proto or next gen production will address this. Not sure what they were thinking.

 @shredddr: I think they were thinking that cable tourism would take over.

 @shredddr: Sounds about right. Sell v1 which is actually only pre production standard and the have V2 which is what v1 always should have been

 @mikekazimer: off topic, is that weight right? 37lbs for a carbon trail bike, with carbon wheels?
My carbon Spire, with, Zeb, SDU, WAO wheels, and full fat cushcore front and rear is 33lbs......where is the 4 extra lbs hiding?

 @onawalk: DH tires are heavy

 @bryankstancil: theres maybe 600grams difference in overall wheel weight between what I have, and what is printed for Rhys bike, that aint no 4 lbs...

 @onawalk: a Druid V2 MD frame weighs nearly a pound and a half more than a Spire frame, combined with heavy tires/cushcore and you "ain't" too far off

 @bryankstancil: Thats wild to me,
like I said, maybe a 600 gram difference in wheels,
I'm slightly startled that the Druid is 4lbs heavier than my dual crown rated 170mm travel enduro bike, thats signifigant

 @onawalk: the suspension and extra idler is also way more complex, more hardware, bearings, and the chainstay won’t snap like your spire will

 @avg-roadie: what are you talking about?
It’s just an inverted Horst link, there’s nothing more complex about it?
What Spire chainstays are snapping, I’ve never heard anything about that?

 Yeah, pretty please with a cherry on the top can we have red Zebs?

 @eddlessride: with a cherry in the paint

 Lots

 @leelau: damn thought it’d be rare

 Do not leave your bike unattended in Whistler village ever, not even for a second. Bring a lock into the village and leave it locked to something while you're in the park then grab it to secure your bike when you go for food.

 The Zeb has 14 clicks of LSC.

 yeah. but unlike Fox, this probably does something. Fox's 20something clicks don't do anything at all untill the last 3-4. the same with Marzocchi. I have the bomber dj on my dj bike. It has about 90degrees of adjustability on the knob. It doesn't do anything for 60degrees. It starts firming up on the last 30.

 @Colos0509: Try being lighter. I know a few twiggy folks that say the exact opposite: can only use the first, say, 20 degrees or first 5 clicks, then it's too firm. It's a "range", and RockShox' is very often smaller.

14 of LSC on the Zeb is nice, but also counter to their own reasoning for only having 8 clicks on recent shocks: less clicks with same range equals more change per click, or less clicks with less range equals same change per click. And that's somehow better than people having to count more than two hands worth... a couple times when they first set it up.

 True, but it depends on your riding style and on the rear suspension progressivity and the set ups. I've chosen a Transition Smuggler over the Sentinel because I'm a hardtailer who prefer shorter rear travels.

 Also I think forbidden kinda punches above its travel in a major way. Connor was on the dreadnought at FW last Lear and did super well and now this Druid is going crazy.

 Forbidden bikes have one of, if the not, most rearward axle paths. Their bikes have always ridden like the have more travel. I'm guessing part of the reason he's on a medium is because the dynamic wheelbase at sag is quite a bit longer than it's wheelbase on paper.

 @islandforlife: Is rear travel on the Druid stated as a straight line vertically, or is it the total "length" of travel measured along the curvature of the axle path?

This could explain the "feeling like they have more travel" as they might actually have more travel than stated.

 @onawalk: that's a very good question, quite the same I have about my Smuggler which makes me feel that I have (a bit) more than 120mm.

 The Dread's 154 feels like 170+ so it makes sense that 130 would feel like a lot more.

 @alexsin: Druid V1, V2 and Dreadnaught axle path.
V2 with 21mm of rearward travel, so are we actually talking about a bike with closer to 150mm travel, which makes more sense for it to be raced in EWS, with a 160mm fork.

www.pinkbike.com/photo/24658429

Side note, Dreadnaught with 30mm of rearward travel, so validates your comment of "feels like" 170+

Also, is Rhys bike something like 630+ stack with a 160 Zeb on the front?

I was hoping this was going to be a new short travel bike for me, but not at 37lbs, maybe those new SRAM calipers are 2lbs a piece.....

 

 @onawalk: Well if you build it like a trail bike and switch out the zeb for a lyrik, the bar for a carbon oneup, the RS AXS dropper for a oneup, the DH tires for EXO+, the Transmission for cable GX, the DH wheels for Enduro, the Mallet DH's for Enduro's and take out the cushcore...

You save a grand total of 1548 grams or 3.4 pounds. Making the bike 33.6 lbs.

 @islandforlife:I think GX cable is heavier isn't it? See below doesnt include cable weights either, I could be wrong, maybe I'm missing something.

I'm not trying to say anyone is wrong, again, I'm just a little surprised. This is the weight of a Large Norco Range with a coil shock, and there was criticism of the weight of that bike, hell its similar in weight to a Large Norco Shore (alloy, coil, PB field test bike).
Either way, bike looks awesome, and I bet its a tonne of fun to ride. If I get a chance, I'd love to give it a try. I'm still thinking the 130mm, is really closer to 150mm with the arc of the axle path


Transmission XX Total weight (including 170mm DUB-PWR Powermeter cranks with 32t chainring and bash guards, rear derailleur with battery, 126-link chain with Power Lock, 10-52t cassette and Pod Controller Ultimate): 1,785g

GX cable eagle 1,906g – Derailleur, cassette, chain, shifter, bottom bracket, cranks with chainring

 @onawalk: Ya not sure, might have missed something in my weights, was working quickly... think I might have compared XO vs XX, didn't include cables and assumed the same bottom bracket weights. So you can up the weight to 33.8 lbs.

As for that Norco, add DH tires and a Cushcore and it's now 1.5 pounds heavier at 38.5. It's all relative. Again, I don't notice the 2 pounds I drop from using a full bottle to an empty one during my ride. People put too much stock into weight vs what that weight does for you. I'll bet that Druid frame is pretty bomb proof. They probably don't care as much also. I've heard of some frame designers adding material and weight just to ensure weird parts of the frame end up looking good.

 @islandforlife: so safe to say, with a high end trail bike build, youre looking at a near 34lb trail bike. Thats lighter tires, no cushcore, etc. So id still go out on a limb and say thats a fairly heavy trailbike with 130mm travel, which is what I was saying.....

The bike is still trying to compete with Spesh Stumpys, Trek Supercal, Rocky Elements, and it comes in at 5lbs or more heavier.
Now, while I dont think of weight as a huge factor, I do think that a bike that is at a real price premium (the Druid is more expensive than a WAO Arrival) might benefit from a bit less girth....

And the Norco, that was with DD tires, so maybe add a pound, and thats still friggin shocking considering the Range/Shore are essentially dual crown rated, coil shock, DH bikes....both with 170mm of travel, and Large frames......

You might not be concerned with weight, but even you can admit thats a bit shocking of a weight for the Druid

 @islandforlife: I’ve just got my S3 Druid V2 this week and you’re pretty spot on here. I have a lyrik up front, ext storia coil shock, exo tires, one up dropper, wheelworks carbon wheels, Gx transmission, alu deity bars/stem and tmac pedals and it’s 15.33kg / 33.7lbs.

 @onawalk: I just don’t think bikes fit into your overly prescriptive model of travel = weight = capability. The fact that you’re banging this drum in an article about a guy riding this “trail” bike in the EWS etc should surely show that. I’m a big fan obviously as I just got a v2 Druid, and I hope you’re a big fan of your Spire, which is also an awesome bike (I ride with a guy who is madly in love with his!) but the fact that a Druid is built to be ridden as hard or harder than an “enduro” bike shows that the travel number and the category naming really is only part of the story.

 Sorry mate I should add that I missed one of your posts where you explain in a more reasoned way why you’re surprised, but also that you get it. I’ll see myself out…

 @remote-local: fair,
Listen, I’m a big fan of the Forbidden bikes, the V2 Druid looks like top of my list for an aggressive short travel bike.
To some degree, weight does equal travel, which equals capability. In the hands of a pro rider, different story, for the rest of us, there is a direct correlation between those things.

After looking at that Forbidden DH bike again, I’m still pretty sure we are looking at the same or very similar front triangle.
and of note, I think Forbidden is measuring vertical rear wheel travel, and with that very rearward axle path, I think it’s more like 150ish, which makes a bit more sense, and lends to the idea that “it punches above its weight”

 @onawalk: yeah, I haven't found a conclusive answer to the that vertical travel + rearward travel measurement, but it's a curve so its not a straight forward calculation. I'm not sure it's as much as 150, but hard to say. I'm hoping to actually ride it properly (vs the carpark at the shop) this week!

 @remote-local: measuring it would be pretty straightforward, if you have a bike on hand.

Hope you enjoy your first ride, sounds like a deadly bike, with a deadly build.

 That’s cuz we all suck at bikes.

 460 reach. My current Large is 465

 @aaronlelevier: 471 for my L and I’m also 5’11. Feels just right.

 I would say he is using an M cause with this rearward axle the length of the bike grows a lot so you need shorter wheelbase number for maneuverability compared to others...

 I'm 182 and 470mm reach large, perfect. I had a 490mm reach bike and it was too long for me. Sold it after a few months