Ask Pinkbike: Brakes For a Big Guy, and Should I Drill My Frame?

 Only if you're tired of stopping.

 @mikekazimer: how about SWATing downtubes, mike?

 Try WD-40 first and see if that works.

 YES!

 Do it. Brakes only slow you down

 Gottta go fast+

 Sometimes just think for like 3-4 seconds before asking certain questions...

 Isnt' that Gwins secret for going fast?

 Yes and there's a 10 min video on Youtube explaining the how-to step by step... just like how they teach you how to drill head phone jack on the new Iphone 7.

 @SacAssassin: Gwin switched to Tektro brakes to go even faster.

 Should I modify my frame for a pinion gearbox?

 things are getting serious in The Mechanics Lounge

 The only component I bother with internal routing for is droppers because there are more good internal options.

 @mentalhead, you don't have to kill yourself, those Elixirs will do it for you.

 First an foremost the look, 2nd you not gonna replace hoses that often with internals, 3rd frames with stupid bottom tube cable routing attract mud as a magnet, 4th bleeding has nothing to do with cables routing, even on Elixirs, and so on... In reality the only reason to not drill your ugly frame is voiding a manufacture's warranty...

 @cholla: I run ecternally-routed, full cable outers then grease the cables inside them and I've only changed cables twice in over a year and a half. I don't ride in the world's shittiest conditions, but at the end of the day, running a cable through the frame doesn't actually leave fewer points of ingress for dirt than externally-routed full outers anyway and isn't really any better sealed, so I'm actually not convinced internal routing is worth the faff.

As for looks, well, that's a personal thing, but I'd rather things were easier to get at, than pretty.

 External routing is fine for brakes and shifter cables, but the droppers that mount their cable up at the seat are god awful looking.

 @twd953: ah ha......Elixers are "up hill" brakes aint they ?

 @Smevan: "As for looks, well, that's a personal thing, but I'd rather things were easier to get at, than pretty" - so that's why your partner looks like that!

 Cable rub is the reason I want to route internally and because Karim Amour did it when he rode my bike. Another negative of doing it I can think of is moisture and dirt getting in your headset through the holes.

 @El-Guapo93: Lol :p Walked right into that

 i believe physics agrees with you

 Pads make quite a diffrenece as well and the standard Shimano ones aren't the most grabby IME.

 Big guys need to try magura's mt7's. I have saint and the mt7 will flip you over in a heartbeat if you press them firmly. Mt7 were too powerful for me(I weigh 175)

 @pigit77:

175 is not big guy territory my friend

I think ya gotta be over 200

 Yes, do you want unicorns or monster trucks?

 @T-Bot: Monstercorns of course

 @T-Bot: Can I have a unicorn riding in a monster truck?

 @partymob:
Not trying to prolong a bad thread but I bet Waki could put together a pretty sweet Monstercorn driving a unitruck.
"Unitruck" might be a worlds first

 @kubaner: Oh boy I have some wild images, love to do that too. I'm a bit clumsy with a broken collarbone right now though. I can imagine Waki wouldn't just draw you that sweet unitruck driving Monstercorn though. He'll get you an enduro MonsterEaglecorn riding an USD 300mm dropper post equipped E-unitruck with 26+{sqrt}-{int} tyres stuffed with Huck Norris and sealant instead of air. He's a weirdo, see. I could never come up with something like this.

 MONSTERCORNS!

 @kubaner: unitruck m.youtube.com/watch?v=awY49n0casE

 what you know about corns bro?

 @vinay: @WAKIdesigns please do this ???????????? ????

 Its good for reducing weight and also in certain areas for increased down force(traction).

 Even for a dropper? I have a drilled frame and am exactly 0% concerned for failure.

 while i agree it is generally dumb there are occasions where there is no serious risk. Been in workshops a while, have a few drilled frames for di2 out there now, though they are never rushed and a lot of thoughts goes into whether it would even be viable on the frame. So while i generally agree with the above its not always a no, hell ive done two where the manufacturer even knows and gives the go ahead

 @jrocksdh: I assume you're taking the mick

 @paulwootton77: you don't get me fam. It's the principle that somebody actually wants to convert a perfectly sensible externally routed frame to a horrid bastardised internally routed frame. Internally routed mountain bikes are the stupidest thing ever dreamt up.
@husstler I'm cool with dropper posts, internally routed dropper posts actually have merit to the function of the bike. But even those ought to be external right up to the base of the seat tube.

 @husstler: Speed holes baby! think of all the cool whistling sounds your bike could make if it was covered in holes! hopefully it won't drown out the sound of the hockey card in my spokes, but you know, progress the sport and whatnot.

 I did it to a frame that was already a few years old and needed a new dropper anyways... found a good deal on an internal route, grabbed a beer and my drill, proceeded with a nice tidy job routing my new post. Send the cops, Im not afraid. @ThomDawson

 the more holes in your frame the lighter. It's important to save one or two carbon grams!

 Ben Reid had his old Iron Horse Sunday turned into Swiss Cheese to save weight. I know the guys that owns it now, and it's still going!

ep1.pinkbike.org/p4pb2381922/p4pb2381922.jpg

(Can't make link active for some reason?)

 if you have a carbon frame, you can avoid the inherent weaknesses of a drilled out frame by simply using a hammer and punch... and it's faster too!

 @excavator666: You cant drill hydroformed tubes such as the top tube and downtube, headtube is debatable. What was done to Ben;s bike is very practical. It is a forged piece of metal CNC'd and then CNC'd again reducing weight and redistributing stress through the link, thus changing reaction force on the linkage slightly. I'd love to know if this bike feels different to a none drilled linkage bike.

 Forget drilling holes for cables, thats so 2015! Angle grinding for cable slots is the way forward. do it!

 @gaffney92: Ah I know, just posting it as an example of what can be done if you know what you're at.

Incidentally, here's the full bike check article from Pinkbike. Ben's father must be a metal worker or something.

www.pinkbike.com/news/ben-reid-iron-horse-2008.html

 @ThomDawson: Agree.

Anyone who routinely works on bikes knows internal routing was introduced for completely superficial reasons - for flakey pansies more concerned with how their bike looks rather than how it performs.

No one want's to deal with internally routed brakes. So why bother with internally routed shifter cable if the brake lines are hanging outside anyway?

Dropper posts that are internally routed are a functional improvement. But I never did have much of an issue dialing my external routes so they moved out of the way and worked fine.


Can't we all just agree internal routing was a bad idea and make it go away????

 @MikerJ: We all want our bikes to look good. Be honest with yourself. Internal routing isn't that big of a deal, and it looks great. Maybe on a race bike it's not ideal, I can agree with that. I had to change out a rear brake on a DH bike recently and it took longer than I would have preferred, having to bleed the brake after swapping from another bike when I wouldn't normally have to do that, but it sure looks tidy. Man up, and admit to yourself that bikes can perform well AND look good doing it.

 @DARKSTAR63: Do you really think that a bike with some of its cables going through the frame like some sort of Borg looks better than a simple, functional, cleanly executed, externally routed bike? You've been on the look aid my friend. I've argued my case on this countless times (luckily @MikerJ did it for me this time) and I'm losing my patience with people who refuse to 'man up' and admit they've bought into an industry gimmick. There are no benefits to having some some of your cables go through the frame, and it doesn't look any better - look at any bike from 5 or 6 paces and they all look like a session anyway, you only notice the cables when you're stood next to it on a shop floor while somebody tries to pry your wallet from you. If you bought a sick bike that happens to have internal cables (you're hard pushed to find one that doesn't these days) then good for you, if you passed up a sick bike because it had too many unsightly cables on show then you're a fool and if you took your sick, perfectly functional bike and converted it to internal then, my goodness, I have no words. And no, not because you're going to die when your headtube splits or the chainstays crack but because WHY? At best you've wasted your time (and will continue wasting time now that you have to thread cables and hoses through the frame) and at worst you've ruined a good bike for what? So you can have a Borg bike. Congratulations.

I will concede on one point - if you took an old frame and thought 'what the hell' then fair enough. I like to tinker....if it had any practical merits whatsoever I'd have got myself in the workshop with a pot of tea and done it myself.

Internal routing is a marketing gimmick. It needs to go away. Bikes looked good before it and they still look good without it.

 @excavator666: I remember bens bike being drilled back in the day, what I didn't remember was how small it was! Bens about the same height as me but that thing looks like it was made for a midget..... how times change!

 Internal is just a pointless hassle. Aesthetics? Hhaahhahahahah. It's a machine, its true beauty lies in its capabilities.

 @BryceBorlick: this comment, combined with many of the others above, have such an adorably naïve preference towards pragmatics. the market demands an affordable balance between aesthetics and function, and the failure to do provide this is realized in products not selling. to offer a streamlined bike that works great and looks good doing it- will sell. which is the point. if every car company only focused on how a car works and disregarded its looks, we would all be driving a prius.
I could go on, but I have an aesthetics class to teach.

 @Racer951: Was thinking exactly the same thing!

 @obee1: I know you are responding to Bryce's comment on aesthetics (I'm sure your ears prick up every time somebody mentions the word) but my point is that aesthetics aren't the point here. Internal cables is gimmickry. It's not an attempt to make a bike look better, the cables never ruined the lines of a bike - the cables follow the lines of bike frames for goodness sake. Consider a bike with internal cable routing...the most offensive cable loops are still visible because there's no where to hide them. Obviously this about selling bikes but to say it's a point of aesthetics is what's naive...which means your poor comparison about the Prius is besides the point eintirely. We all want our bikes to look rad, they do that better when they don't feature a half arsed attempt to hide the brake hoses. More to the point there are plenty of bikes that still feature external cables and they are selling very well. Did you say streamlined? I smell Lycra. Not that there's anything wrong with Lycra but have you seen what mountain bikers wear? Aero it ain't.
I could go on until I've successfully pried your head from your arse but I have a bike to ride ;-)

 @ThomDawson: fair call on your point. the prius reference is less than ideal but i was rushing thru a thought without any editing. its clear that you find internal routing distateful, and i will simply agree to disagree. there was a great custom motorcycle builder who internally routed his cables and utilized a twisting throttle clutch actuation. i always liked his lines.

my wife and various colleagues would appreciate your endeavours regarding my cranial relocation, but its warm in there- so no need for name calling. although i might be guilty of it in my "naive"reference, so i can take it. just don't associate me with lycra and we'll remain pals.

 You guys are tapped. Try to enjoy mountain biking a little more, worry less about who puts cables where...

 I can recommend sintered koolstop pads with the copper baseplate. they are expensive, but way more powerful than avid, trickstuff or alligator. according to a lab test from the german bike magazine they are the strongest pads available

 Same here. Saint with the Shimano metal pads. I have not experienced brakes more powerful.

 I have been using the uber race matrix pads for a long while now and found them to be a good upgrade over the standard saint pads, and a lot cheaper as well

 @TheRaven:

Of the currently available yes saints are King. They still were not as good (or heavy lol) as the Magura Gustavs I used to have!

 SwissStop organic 4ever

 @onemind123: I'm a big guy too and currently run Saints which are fine, but I also had some Magura Gustavs on a previous bike and they were by miles, the best most insanely powerful brakes I have ever used. And I had them for years and never bled them once. Yes, they weighed as much as the rest of the bike combined, but holy f*ck they were awesome! I miss them.

 Zees should do the job with good pads. Braided hoses (i use goodridge for 4 years) also helps in the power department. And yes, only the best rubber you can get. But man... the most powerful brakes i tried were those Gustav M`s.

 Big guy here. 270+. climb and descend steep 3-4 days a week.
Ride a Turner Burner v3.1.
That said I have run XTR calipers and found I was overheating way to much. Switched to Saint . Ran 203F/180R. Fried the 180 rear. Literally glowed orange on a hot day on a long descent.
Run only Shimano finned pads. Found that metallic in rears can glaze up the rotors and squeal badly.
I run the organic/non metallic in rear now and metallic in front. 203 Icetech rotors front and rear. The perfect no problem forever setup. No need for braided lines. The stock Shimano are easy to fit,find , are cheap and work great.

 @mcgetskinny: also the adaptors for the Gustavs were stupid expensive as the calipers floated / self centred on the adaptor itself.

I may pull the set I have out of the storage box and use them for old times sake!

 I am heavy too, riding the saints m820 with ice tech freeza rotors 203/180mm, they brake awesome

 I am too a big guy and personal think you will enjoy the M810 rather than the new 820's. 820's have too much articulation; 810 just have a bigger bit right at the top of stroke. I kinda miss my 810's, but the whole weight thing (bike weight) makes me stick with 820's. Also make sure you sand the top layer of pads and rotor frequently, cause you might be creating more glaze sooner than Mr. Skinny.

 what are you guys running for rotors with your zee/saints? i use the recommended shimano rotors on one bike and hope rotors on my other bikes with saints, i prefer the hope over shimano contrary to what ive heard others say but it could be preference.

 @whitebullit: I have ran the shimano discs with both my saint and zee brakes on both bikes, I have now put hope discs on my down hill bike and have found the hopes to be an improvement, although not a huge amount more in stopping power they definately do not warp like the shimano's used to do

 Uber bike race matrix pads are quite a lot better than any other pad I've used and they also come with a heat plate to prevent them overheating. I'd definitely recommend trying them. I won't use any other pads now.

 @onemind123: I agree. Those magura brakes were the best and still should be for sale. With a new lever Ofcourse. But now.... I find myself going for the Avid codes for more consistency and power. I find my saints to be very powerful but unpredictable.

 @kmsports: Unpredictable is not a term I would use for Saints. In what way?

 @chasejj: ok. Inconsistent might be a better word. I've had a few instances where they started the ride great. Then near the bottom I had the braking power of an old avid juicy. Completely different feel from top to bottom.

 @kmsports: I would say you had a small amount of air in the lines then.
I have never had any issue in years of literally smoking them to failure. The only time they had an issue was when I glazed the shit out rear pads and they got grabby and sqealed . Switch to the organic pads and that went away except the softer pads wear faster.

 Seriously uber bike race matrix pads are way better than any organic pad but if you're always going to have some air in brake fluid it's impossible to get it all out and your pads are going to lose performance when they get really hot on long steep downhills.

 @kmsports: You had air in the lines, or possibly a hole/cut. I had a set of Saints where I kept losing the rear brake on real hairy descents. Turns out there was a tiny pinhole in the rear brake line. If you are getting fade or loss of power on Saint or Zee brakes, something is amiss with the system.

 @chasejj: i never had air in the lines...always had good lever lever feel. i find as soon as the pads get hot the brakes seem to lose that bite that they once had. And yes..I've also totally glazed over the rotor and pads in the past too. They don't work so well after that. I haven't done that to any other brands yet.

 @kmsports: Once you really glaze them up it seems like the switch to organic or new rotors is required. the rotors seem to collect pad material and lose their qualities.
I have some success with removing the rotors and using a sanding pad and orbital sander on the surface . it brings them back if they are terribly glazed up.

 @chasejj: Yes orbital or even rotary sander to the braking surface, plus a quick sanding of the pad itself, and everything will work like new again.

This is a standard part of my regimen for ANY disc brake.

 Did the same to install a Reverb Stealth, and no issue, no stress, no crack whatsoever, riding bike parks in the Alps. Just do it slowly and properly.

 I drilled my RMB Vertex carbon race bike to do an internal dropper post and I'm so glad I did

 Done as well on my 2016 Pivot Mach 6 alu for a cage in the triangle. Used bigger insert than usual. Awesome fit !

 Did it too. Works well. Just be gently.

 same here, still beating the crap out of my Spesh

 +1 to this, also better biting knobs on the top of your tread will help a lot.

 I'd be very impressed if he made a successful warranty claim on a 2009 Remedy

 I thought it went without saying that modifying your frame in any way voids the Warranty. It's the primary reason not to do this.

 @webbe: my buddy cracked his 2010 rear triangle Moab and I was shocked to learn they sent him a replacement (and that they had one available)..no questions asked. Trek doesn't mess around!

 Agreed, love mine. Definitely go with the 3 ply laminated floating rotors, 1x ply rotors nd V4's makes crappy lever feel. If you don't want the weight penalty of the 3 ply rotors, get the E4 calipers.

 Yip get the vented rotors, they make a massive difference. More power, less heat and fade.

 Not surprised. Lots of pro DH guys were running that combo all last season.

 I've seen that modification done successfully as well, but there's big difference between drilling a hole in your seat tube compared to putting holes in the area around the head tube.

 @mikekazimer: yeah true! though the older my frame gets, the more likely I am to experiment with it haha

 I agree with this guy, and would consider the mt7 also, but the pads on Maura wear fast....they just are crazy powerful, but have good modulation for how strong they can get....

 My Hope brakes are my favourite component on my bike.

 @takeiteasyridehard: Or event the MT5s much cheaper, don't weigh much more and if you swap out to the MT7 4 pad setup just as much power.

I prefer the lever feel on the MT5s or the MT7s. Surprisingly Lopes runs the 5s over the 7s for some reason.

 I think the dragging the brakes issue is not just a technique issue - it's also about whether you have confidence in your brakes. After a good brake bleed, when the feel at the lever is all immediate, I find I ride much more like all the guys who know tell me I should (brake hard when you have traction, then get off the brakes and let it run). When the levers are all squishy, I lack the confidence to trust my brakes that I need to let myself do that.

So I'd argue stick with Shimano brakes, and get a bleed kit. I'm so addicted to the feel of a properly bled set of brakes now, I won't tolerate even the slightest bit of squish in the system. So good pads, replaced well before they're all worn, frequent bleeding well before it gets even remotely bad, and I find myself riding better, with more fun, fully confident I'll be able to slow my fat ass down when I need to.

 I love my hope v4 they feel great and just work when you need them. I have experimented with the mt7 and after a month or dinking around, bleed, bled by shop they never did feel much better than a fist full of poo. The power seemed good but could not get over the feeling of not having a solid wall at the end of the lever stroke.

 Well no shit, they probably would have told him anything after he consumed them!

 @bishopsmike: *contacted

 It took me a year to get them working properly. Bleeds as per shimano's instructions solved nothing. After 2 months of inconsistent lever pull and bite point I shelved them for ~10 months. Then I attempted to get them to work again.

Two things solved it for me:
1) Sanding then baking the pads in the oven. Worked like a charm for a long time, until I noticed my power was lacking, I baked the pads again and presto. Instant stopping power. The pads get a glaze on the surface.
2) Dual bleed. First with the pistons extended to the point of almost popping out of the housing (careful, don't want them to pop out. Used a plastic tire lever as a spacer). Full bleed that way, Then pushed the pistons back in and block bleed them. These are notoriously difficult to get the air out of the calipers.

 @barbaricht: Maybe some Maguras are shite, but the Gustavs were AMAZING. Ugly and heavy as hell, but oh man they worked well.

 @barbaricht: I see from your other comment that you prefer theory over experience. So please read something about Magura Gustav before you embarrass yourself even more.

 Still have my Gustavs hanging on the wall, currently running MT5's with MT7's pads, I think I prefer the MT5's over the Gustavs, same power but with a lot more modulation, so far I've only gone over the bars twice by accident. MT5's don't initially feel as strong as Gustav's because of the modulation.

 My first generation zees were exactly the same, the rear failed on me one time. I changed to hope E4s, had them almost 2 years now and they've been great.

 Sorry forgot. I don't care what anyone says, from my experience, the stopping power of ZEE is nothing compared to the Hopes. Formula RO have similar but no modulation and are finicky and expensive. Shimano seems to be great if you are small light rider.

 Might try a 220mm rotor down the road.

 Fellow "full size" rider here, make sure you try Shimano RT86 / IceTech rotors. They do a great job keeping your brakes cool & working.

 I prefer hub grease. Quiets them down a bit more

 I always think of the Canadian comedy show Red-Green when people say to, "just do" something. Like he'd take something like a old Toyota Corolla, smash out the back window, put a boat steering wheel connected with a rod to the regular steering wheel, add a bar stool, and call it a rear engined sports car. And he always says, "if the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy".

 Maybe the guy is all muscle and could rip you in half for that comment.