Review: Manitou Mattoc Pro Fork - Reversed Arched, Foward Thinking

Mar 6, 2024 at 14:24
by Henry Quinney  
Manitou Mattoc Pro review

Manitou isn't afraid to do things differently, and the Manitou-Hayes group that they form a part of seems to be slowly gaining market share. The Hayes brakes have often been touted as standout performers in recent years, and Reynolds has enjoyed success in both enduro and downhill World Cups. Their forks, whether that's the upside-down Dorado or the reverse-arched Mattoc and Mezzer, may not be as as commonly seen, but they've garnered a highly loyal fan base over the years.

The Mattoc Pro fork uses 34mm chassis, and although Manitou talks about lining the Mattoc up against not only the 1800g RockShox Pike but the 2kg Lyrik as well, the fork could be argued to have something like the 1350g SID firmly in its sights, too. I'd say this is an XC fork that has applications outside its remit rather than a trail or enduro fork that can be shrunk down to XC lengths. The fact that the Mattoc Pro splits the difference in terms of weight, and has been raced at World Cup level XC races lends this idea some credence.


Mattoc Pro Details

• Intended use: XC / trail
• Travel: 110 to 150mm
• Wheel size: 29 or 27.5"
• Stanchions: 34 mm
• Offset: 44 mm (29") 37 & 44mm (27.5")
• Adjustments: HSC, LSC, rebound, two positive air chambers
• Weight: 1708 grams actual (179mm steerer)
• $550 Comp & $800 Expert versions also available
• MSRP: $1050
• More info: Hayesbicycle.com
Weight isn't the only way the fork aims to be evenhanded, either. The fork uses the fully sealed cartridge MC2 Damper that features independent high and low-speed compression adjustments and hydraulic bottom out, and is the same you would find across Manitou's gravity offerings. It also has the Dorado three-chamber air spring that uses its Infinite Rate Tune (IRT) system. Not only that, but this is one of the few XC-ready forks that has a bolt-on mudguard available and bleed-ports for the lowers, which are accessed by small bolts near the crown. In some ways, it feels like Manitou is trying to make the downhiller's short travel fork.

The Mattoc Pro reviewed here is distinct in the lineup thanks to its silver crown. However, there are also the lower priced Comp and Expert versions that feature a similar chassis but different internals. The Pro and Expert chassis are the same, but the Comp has less crown machining on a hollow bore crown and uses straight wall legs. The Comp and Expert use the same Incremental Volume Adjust (IVA) Airspring, which operates like a more traditional system with one valve and ramp control via volume reducers. The forks all feature different dampers and, as so often is the way, the more you spend the more adjustments you get.



Chassis

Manitou Mattoc Pro review

The 34mm legs of the Mattoc are squarely in the middle of trail riders' expectations and align with offerings from Fox and Ohlins in terms of stanchion diameter. The headline is of course that reverse arch. I don't believe that a bicycle has to look a certain way, and I am not averse to reversed arches. I think there are better and worse executions, but the same could be said of both orientations. I do like the fender, silver crown, and smooth gloss finish.

The fender itself is a soft malleable plastic that has stood up well to knocks and bends over the last year. However, its lack of stiffness does mean that should you take the fork off and lean it against anything it is soft enough to bend and distort. This isn't a big deal, but it will be something you notice should you travel with the front wheel removed and the bike in the back of your car. My fender looks to be bent slightly off-center and is unwilling to take its former shape.

Manitou Mattoc Pro review
Manitou Mattoc Pro review
The damper sits in the drive side leg of the fork.

The axle is a tidy system that is both novel and intuitive, but it's also got quirks when it comes to taking the front wheel out that most notably come to the fore when traveling. Should you only have one hand free, you are normally able to thread the axle in with no tool to ensure it doesn't fall out and get lost. The design of the Mattoc Hexlock Axle means that it is the axle that is held firm via a spanner-like interface in the lower, which is fastened on the other side via a floating 6mm bolt that brings it up to tension. It works well, but I don't think it's in any way an improvement compared to a standard bolt-through, irrespective of any claimed benefit of increased stiffness.

As mentioned there are some bleed ports to the lowers that are activated by removing two small bolts. While this might not be as easy as the Fox bleed ports, it's better than nothing, is great to see on an XC-ready fork, and is relatively painless to do.

Another appreciated feature of the lower is the option to either run the front brake hose clamped to the arch with a cable tie or through a small plastic clamp on the fore side of the fork. The routing is very neat, and manages to undermine the ugly cable routing that reverse arch forks can often yield. The brake mount itself is a 160mm post mount. This will give riders options, but I would contend that 180mm rotors are the go-to for everyone except the most ardent XC racers.

Manitou Mattoc Pro review
Manitou Mattoc Pro review
I think it's a very good-looking fork, reverse arch or not.



Spring

image for Manitou Mattoc review by AJ Barlas

Around ten years ago, there was the bottom-out revolution when RockShox brought air spring-tuning to the masses with their Token system. Adding volume reducers to the air spring is something we're very familiar with now. For the same pressure, a rider could have a fork less likely to bottom out, or they could run lower pressures as a consequence of having reduced volume, and have a fork that offered a similar bottom out resistance but was more willing to break into its stroke.

The 'it's-too-good-to-be-true' trade-off was and is that sometimes low-volume air springs can feature too much ramp, and dive through the mid-stroke before entering the more supportive latter phase. That can result in a fork that feels like it switches on half way through the stroke, or falls until it hits a wall of support.

Manitou's three-chamber Infinite Rate System isn't totally novel, but it does have features that set it apart when comparing it to offerings from brands such as Ohlins. In theory, they both work similarly - they both have a ramp-up chamber set via its own valve and another valve that sets pressure for the positive chamber and negative chamber. One distinction would be how the positive/negative air chamber is filled. On Manitou's system, it doesn't pressure the positive chamber which the negative then equalizes off but rather fills them both simultaneously. Compared to the Ohlins three-chamber system, the Manitou has a lower difference recommended between the main and ramp pressure. I think that for experienced riders the style of this system is better, but it has pitfalls for some who aren't so inclined to fettle. It also places a greater emphasis on the damper to support the fork in the midstroke.

These systems, which do offer a greater level of tunability, can be somewhat counterintuitive to use, and the Dorado IRT is no different. For instance, if you wish to have a greater level of end stroke support you would add pressure in the ramp up. This in some instances can reduce the ride height of the fork because the threshold needed to activate and compress that second air chamber is achieved later in the stroke. Adding air to the main chamber is simpler, with it making the fork more linear throughout its stroke. Should you bolt a Mattoc to your bike, it is worth considering the shape of a progressive air spring, and how adding air to the main chamber can shallow out a curve before steepening it.

The air spring also has spacers to add or remove travel. This means that you can change the fork stroke without having to buy expensive air shafts. It's relatively simple and can be honed into fine art that doesn't take more than a handful of minutes with the fork off the bike and held horizontally.



Damper

The MC2 Damper is a clever piece of kit, and it's got almost every feature that could be asked of a modern suspension unit. One might argue that the lack of differentiation between low and high-speed rebound is a lack of a feature, but I would contend that the return speed is relative to the spring and subsequently one dial is often all that is needed and will throttle the oil flow effectively. Unlike our compression circuits, which see a variety of different size impacts and differing speeds, in a plethora of different combinations, forks tend to return more universally.

Hydraulic bottom-out is becoming something mountain bikers are more familiar with. It essentially offers a greater level of compression damping towards the end of the stroke. This is a great way to take the sting out of large compressions and could offer a greater level of freedom with setup in terms of the air spring because the end stroke is being given a helping hand from the damper. The hydraulic bottom-out on the Mattoc Pro comes into action in the last 30mm of travel.

The way the compression circuits work is inverse to a traditional damper. Normally, oil flows through an orifice. When the whole column of oil is pushed in one compression, that hole will not be able to accommodate, and subsequently the oil will divert around and through the high-speed circuit. This is why in some ways low speed is often merely about setting a threshold of when the oil diverts to the high speed, and why high speed adjustments will have an effect on the overall damping level of the suspension unit.

The MC2 damper differs because, much like the Charger 3 damper from RockShox, the oil first flows through the high-speed adjuster before reaching the low speed. This means then that with 4 different clicks of high speed, you essentially have 4 different foundations from which to add low speed. I think it's a tidy and well-executed system. My observation would be, again similar to the Charger 3, that this system is better for achieving a better setup faster, but might not give more experienced riders that distinct feeling between low and high-speed damping that they wish for. It feels as if the two overlap more.



Setup

Manitou Mattoc Pro review
I ran the fork in both 140 and 150mm lengths on a Cannondale Habit last summer.

I have used the fork over three bikes over the last year, in travel ranges from 130 to 150mm. Mainly it's seen action on a Cannondale Habit and is currently on my personal Commencal Tempo.

The stock pressures do offer a very good starting place, and I would suggest using the damping to bring that setup to your feeling. The air-spring is very sensitive, and Manitou's suggested pressures are quite accurate. Plus, the damper settings are very effective. During telemetry testing, a single click of high-speed compression would result in around a 2% change in dynamic sag. The hydraulic bottom out can also offer a red herring when setting up and you might not be getting full travel, but that doesn't mean you're not running your fork too soft.

Manitou Mattoc Pro review
Manitou Mattoc Pro review
Manitou has got the small details right. The hose-routing options, fender, and bleed ports are all welcome additions.

The compression tune isn't light, per se. It's very appropriate for an XC or light-trail fork. However, for the 150mm travel setup, it can feel a little light. It's of course relative to what and how you ride it, but also the fact that we tend to run longer travel bikes on rougher trails. It was never outgunned, but I ended up running the HSC closed on 140 and 150mm applications and 1 from closed on shorter travel bikes. At greater lengths, the fork never felt flexy to the point where it became an issue, but the ability to hit things very hard is one of the fork's charms at around 130mm, and that is lost a bit as a degree of flex comes in in those longer travel configurations.

The single valve at the bottom of the fork is there to service both air chambers, however, my shock pump didn't inflate both chambers when connected, which was annoying. I think the thread-on head wasn't deep enough to depress the valve.



Ride Impressions

Manitou Mattoc Pro review
Manitou Mattoc Pro review
The novel axle works well, even if it isn't possible to screw in without tools. Not a big deal, but you do notice it when you don't want to thread the axle back in for safe keeping.

The simple truth is that the Mattoc Pro is a very good fork, with a lot of the features you would want. I would contend that it's on par with offerings from bigger, more glitzy players. However, there is a caveat - this is a fork that suits people who enjoy having a more damped feel and a slightly softer spring. If you wish to run the compression more open, I think you will find the air spring wallows and lacks adequate support. This isn't a bad thing, but rather just might take a different approach than some are used to. At $1,050 USD, it isn't exactly a budget proposition whichever way you cut it. Manitou does offer different levels, but its top of the line Pro is essentially the same price as a Pike Ultimate Charger 3 ($1,054) or a Fox GRIP2 Factory 34 ($1,039).

Manitou Mattoc Pro review
Blue rebound and red compression are the opposite of what you might expect.

For some forks and shocks, you can get the setup quite close, in regards to support at least, with the adjustments quite open. You might also find that the adjustments only really have an effect when the spring rate is within a certain range. This is not the case with the Mattoc Pro. The adjustments have a wide variety of useable ranging, meaning that if you want to run everything open you will find it to be lacking support. If you do follow the setup guide, and perhaps commit to running more damping than you may typically do, you can get the fork to be composed, active, and able to withstand big hits.

This also lends to a setup that works well with the position-sensitive damping at the end of the stroke. Should you run the compression more open, the hydraulic bottom out can give the sensation of switching on at the end of the stroke. This change in shaft speed not only inhibits getting full travel but can also undermine confidence and it makes the fork feel like it operates in two stages. I believe running more compression makes this transition smoother, and can subsequently instill more confidence, plus it will mean you end up with a spring rate that's suitable and not one that's overcompensating.

The rebound range of adjustment is also wide, and I found that it's one of the few forks that I don't run fully open. I think this fast-rebound also bleeds into the damped setup preference of the fork, as getting up and out of the stroke between hits gives the damper and great chance to cycle oil and offer support.




Pros

+ Downhill features in a race-ready XC or trail fork.
+ Ultra adjustable.
+ Offers a fork that combines great tracking with big-hit-ability.
+ Sensible features including travel adjusts, mudguard, and bleed ports.
+ Suits riders that like a damped feeling.


Cons

- Requires patience during setup.
- The 3-chamber air spring can be counterintuitive, but worth experimenting with.
- High and low-speed compression adjustments don't feel particularly distinct.
- Suits riders that like a damped feeling.




Pinkbike's Take


bigquotesThe Manitou Mattoc Pro isn't just a great fork from a brand that you might not see that often, it's a great fork full stop. Packed full of features in a smart package, the Mattoc should get more people in on the Cult of Manitou, and not without good reason. While setup requires patience, riders who persevere will get something that operates very well and can hold a candle to offerings from more mainstream brands such as Fox, RockShox, and Ohlins. Henry Quinney


Author Info:
henryquinney avatar

Member since Jun 3, 2014
336 articles

200 Comments
  • 107 6
 Gonna wait for the Manithree
  • 19 16
 Rickybobby19, you made my day ! Nothing like a good ol' pun.
  • 3 6
 You'd probably want a money tree then...
  • 9 0
 The fatbike version is the Manatee.
  • 1 0
 YES, in "full buckets of carbon"
Like you know Coal.
  • 1 0
 That was back in 1994.
  • 113 40
 Remember kids:

"Compression is red, damping is blue, unless it is a Manitou"
  • 194 0
 Surely it's "Rebound is red, compression is blue, unless it is a Manitou".
  • 92 1
 A+ on principle, D- on execution....we'll average that out and I won't upvote or downvote ya.
  • 9 0
 @DirtBagTim: I am seriously, and don't call me Shirley.
  • 2 0
 Rebound = Red
Bump (compression)= Blue
  • 1 0
 @DirtBagTim: I'm sure I had red rebound knob on my manitou stance. Or maybe it was blue..Oh what do I know, It was about 20 years ago..
  • 6 2
 Manitou Starter that colour sheke before Others. Just because you See Most forks fromm es and Fox doesnt mean they were the first to start the color sceme. Sorry mate
  • 2 1
 you had one chance and blew it lool
  • 2 1
 Manitou did it their way back in the mid 90's and they're not changing now!
  • 56 0
 Take this to Halfords and they’ll install it the other way around
  • 10 0
 Same on this side of the pond for most department stores. lol
  • 1 0
 Happens in the best families.. I think even Quinney has something to say about installing it backwards... or half backwards.. and riding it , ey ? @henryquinney
  • 40 5
 Erm.... Normally I enjoy Quinneys writings, but this review was mostly nonsense. The description of the way both the damper and air spring functioned made little to no sense. And I write this as someone who services hydraulics for a living...
  • 37 0
 Thanks for the feedback. Can you help me understand a little more - do you feel my description doesn't make sense, or does make sense but is describing something inaccurately? Thanks.
  • 8 0
 Sadly, I agree with gabius. Henry the Great (I mean that) normally transcends simple review writing, but this armchair engineer can NOT understand his descriptions of the setup and air chambers. I have a 3 chamber fork and I came away more confused. I don't have have ability or ability to explain it any better
  • 22 0
 @HciNGPDo: Haha - I mean, I'll take it. I've re-read it a few times and although it does get quite wordy, I feel it's all correct and relevant to the design of both the airspring and damper. Very happy to learn though should anyone have any feedback. The effects of the 3-chamber system is just very complicated when thinking about each chamber's influence on the midstroke, and I think my writing reflects that and is at least suitably complicated. I'll try and think of a more visual experiment to approach in video. Thank you!
  • 26 0
 forks, man! how do they work?!
  • 34 10
 When the fork of the Manitou MC2 damper is compressed, a cascade of intricate mechanical processes unfolds at the micro level, driven by the precise interaction of carefully crafted components.

As the fork compresses, the piston within the damper assembly begins its descent, exerting force upon the hydraulic fluid contained within the damper's chambers. This fluid, typically a specialized oil engineered for its viscosity and thermal stability, is forced through a series of precisely machined ports and orifices within the piston and surrounding valve assemblies.

The geometry and arrangement of these ports and orifices dictate the flow characteristics of the hydraulic fluid, imparting resistance to the compression motion. Each port and orifice is meticulously dimensioned and positioned to modulate the flow of fluid, controlling the rate at which energy is dissipated as heat and damping forces.

Simultaneously, the interaction between the piston and the damping circuits, comprised of carefully stacked shims and valving components, further refines the damping response. As the piston moves, it displaces these shims, altering the effective flow area of the damping circuits and thus influencing the damping forces experienced by the fork.

Meanwhile, within the damping circuits themselves, the fluid undergoes rapid shearing and deformation, a consequence of its viscous nature. This shearing action generates internal friction within the fluid, contributing to the dissipation of kinetic energy and the damping of the suspension motion.

In parallel, the precise machining of components such as seals, bushings, and guide rods ensures minimal friction and stiction, allowing for unhindered movement of the fork assembly. Each surface finish and tolerance is optimized to mitigate energy losses and maintain the fidelity of the suspension's response to rider inputs.

In essence, the compression of the fork sets in motion a symphony of finely orchestrated mechanical interactions, where the interplay of fluid dynamics, precision machining, and engineering design culminates in the sublime damping performance of the Manitou MC2 damper.

But I also have no idea of what Im talking about I just posted this comment to waste your time. Smile
  • 25 1
 @henryquinney: I own both dorado and mezzer with IRT upgrades. I think for more complicated system like this, it's more clear to just say it the way it is then elaborate if required.

"Unlike other forks, Manitou's system fills positive and negative air chamber simultaneously. The IRT (3rd air chamber) replaces tokens etc etc."

vs what you wrote:

"One distinction would be how the positive/negative air chamber is filled. On Manitou's system, it doesn't pressure the positive chamber which the negative then equalizes off but rather fills them both simultaneously. "
  • 14 0
 @chillrider199: rock shox needs to hire you for marketing
  • 13 0
 @chillrider199: you have a tremedous future in the world of patent writing ahead of you
  • 10 0
 @henryquinney: thank you for your reviews. Your writing is obviously labor of love
  • 4 2
 "its lack of stiffness does mean that should you take the fork off and lean it against anything it is soft enough to bend and distort" - this particularly took a few tries to understand what was being said. Like if I take the fork off the bike to service it? No, he meant if you took the wheel off and were leaning the fork against something.
  • 4 0
 @henryquinney: @gabiusmaximus I hear you, but actually made perfect sense to me. I do own a Dorado though, maybe that helps, who knows. I thought the description made sense if you followed each thought through to the end.
  • 2 0
 would be nice if the manufacturers had a tool that showed what your spring curve looks like for various combos of pressures/volume spacers. I've estimated these before with measurements I've taken, but that was just for fun and just for me and my fork. Also requires some basic ideal gas law knowledge that a lot of folks have probably forgotten from their school days.
  • 13 0
 @henryquinney: there is a bit where you say adding pressure to the ramp up lowers the threshold to activate and compress that chamber. That doesn't make sense to me (or I didn't read it right)
  • 28 0
 @Pabsm80: I think this is where the confusion is coming from. It all descended into word salad and I meant to talk about it being achieved later in the stroke, but instead I gave the inverse and opposite meaning. Thank you for the heads up, and I've amended the article now. I think my brain went a bit fuzzy for that one. Cheers.
  • 6 0
 3 chamber air springs were invented specifically to generate more support than standard 2 chambers. Sounds like it wasnt set up properly, possibly with too low pressure in the main chamber. I don't know exactly the manitou damper but lsc and hsc circuits are always in parallel. When the oil can't flow through the hsc it flows through the lsc. If the circuits are in series as described the lsc would have zero effect.
  • 5 0
 @henryquinney: glad to be of assistance. I'm available for proofreading/editing any time!
  • 4 0
 @henryquinney: Hey old bud. Here's my tuppence for a free bit of proofreading for you - check the spelling of 'forward' in the title. Stay well!
  • 16 1
 @henryquinney:
Sorry, I've been afk for a few hours and see theres been a ton of replies since my original comment. Pabsm80 pretty well nailed my main gripe, there are a few others but they were all relatively minor. I'll cover them briefly at the end of this comment, but as I say they are small fry really.

Re: the 3rd chamber, your original wording was a little hard to follow, and I don't remember exactly what was said. The new wording is certainly easier to read through.

"These systems, which do offer a greater level of tunability, can be somewhat counterintuitive to use, and the Dorado IRT is no different. For instance, if you wish to have a greater level of end stroke support you would add pressure in the ramp up. This in some instances can reduce the ride height of the fork because the threshold needed to activate and compress that second air chamber is achieved later in the stroke"

Despite the revised wording, I still disagree with the fundamental idea behind the above statement - that being that the fork will ride lower in the travel if you increase pressure in the ramp chamber and leave everything else the same.

It is true in this case that the fork will have to compress deeper into the stroke before the ramp piston begins moving, however this will increase the springrate in the mid stroke, not reduce it, resulting in an increased active ride height. When the ramp piston begins to move it effectively reduces ramp, rather than increasing it. (imagine the ramp piston as a stack of volume tokens, and that when the piston moves - when the main chamber pressure matches the ramp chamber pressure - these tokens become smaller.) So the result is better mid stroke support (while the ramp piston is stationary) without excessive end stroke (once the ramp piston is moving).

I'll admit at this point I am also struggling to word this clearly... and I'm only writing a couple of paragraphs. So I do understand the challenges of writing about this stuff - something you regularly do far better than me.

Other small gripes:

Focusing on the very minor increase in complication fitting the axle (ie you have to insert the axle from one side, then turn an allen key at the other side) while not giving more than half a throwaway sentence about the fact that its a hexagonal axle, that literally can not twist in the dropout once installed. If youve ever lived with any triple clamp forks with any style of round axle, you will have experienced loosening your axle after a heavy crash and seeing your twisted up fork suddenly ping back to being straight. Hex lock axles completely eliminate this twisting issue.

Re: the fork wallowing without more than average damping, this doesn't really tell us much if we don't know your air spring settings. Are you getting this effect with the main and ramp chambers at max pressure? If not, then what is the limiting factor on the pressures you are running? My guess would be that you would be running as much pressure as possible in the main chamber before it really starts to eat into the small bump performance, and then as much ramp pressure as needed to give good support before it starts limiting the useable travel. However I am guessing here.

Please don't take this as me just slating your writing. I genuinely enjoy most of what you produce. The above is just my honest feedback. I am often told (or at least hinted at in a roundabout and non commital way) that I'm overly forthright. I mean no offense. I just like to have proper discussions.
  • 3 0
 holy shit thats long. I'm also almost never concise. I will ramble on. It's a fault.
  • 2 0
 And yes, as rgtec has very concisely fitted in a couple of sentences while I wrote my rambling essay, hsc and lsc is always in parallell. Rockshox description of their "fully independent" high and low speed is confusing and misleading at best. They basically have a standard low speed orifice in parallell with a standard high speed shim stack, all behind a seperate orifice (which would traditionally be called low speed) that they call high speed cos it allows a larger flow. It's a bit of a mad and overcomplicated setup. As an aside, they have also historically been fans of putting shims in their low speed circuits. I'm really not sure what theyre smoking over there... Saying that, I currently run a boxxer with a charger damper and it works great. However I prefer the more basic damper that does not have externally adjustable hsc, and I have firmed up the high speed shims internally. AFAIC the only good external high speed adjuster is made by Ohlins.
  • 14 2
 I feel like it's overexplaining the whole system. Let me simplify. The first 2 chambers are just like any other fork except that instead of equalizing itself on compression, it fills simultaneously from the same valve.The IRT functions as a volume spacer, the more air in the IRT, the more progressive the fork is. And because the IRT can compress unlike a regular volume spacer, the ramp up is a little smoother than a traditional volume spacer. That's all that needed to be said about the air spring.
  • 1 1
 @henryquinney:

Wegen Reading It Sound s Like the Fork IS kacking in comparison to a Pike or Lyrik,gehen the conclusión saya It IS great, what Your review Text would Not given away. Just compare the way Your qrite a zeb ultimate or Pike review ans compare.
2. I Know you can setup These 3 Air Chambers top almost every Ride charavteristic that you want. Your Sax that IT IS Not supportive. Why Not Just add more Air. And try changes of both pressures. The nattoc IS very smooth, so 20% sag ans a bit more irt pressure do Not make It harsh
The manufacturers recommendations are Just that....recommendations. some comoanies make Thema to Firm, EXT, some too soft and besides IT depends on the head Angle as Well.
So If ITS too soft adjust sag or the secondary Chambers. There ist a nice MEZZER PRO review on the loamwolf were te mechanic fromm Manitu recommended the reviewer a certain way of setup process. Try that out
  • 1 6
flag pedro46 (Mar 14, 2024 at 5:38) (Below Threshold)
 @henryquinney @rgtec-components: Manitou Mattoc and Mezzer forks have 2 air chambers , not 3........
  • 1 1
 @Buggyr333: not smoother so much as comes in earlier, but is then more linear late in the stroke. But yeah basically
  • 2 0
 @chillrider199: that was poetry! Well done
  • 4 0
 @pedro46: The Pro versions come with IRT stock (so 3x chambers)
  • 4 0
 @henryquinney: I was also surprised to see you describe this fork as lacking (midstroke) support and point to the 3 chamber system as the culprit for that. In principle (and practical based on my experience with the Mezzer and Ohlins) the three chamber system allows for MUCH more midstroke support, by allowing you to run higher main chamber pressures (i.e. more support) but have "blowoff volume" from the second positive chamber so the fork isn't harsh in the deeper 3rd of travel or unable to use full travel.
I'm wondering if a misunderstanding of the engineering colored your impressions of the ride experience. The fork *should* be quite supportive, or at minimum can be set up to be quite supportive.
  • 1 1
 @ohio:
?
Wrong description: LOWER Mainchamber pressure but higher irt pressure to get sensitive Initial stroke and higher midzroke Support. Description in every correct manitou review and on the manitou Site as well as their Instructions ;-)
  • 2 0
 @bansaiman: I was talking about relative to a two-chamber fork, and maybe didn't describe it perfectly. With a 3 chamber fork, your main positive chamber is smaller than in a 2-chamber fork. This means if they both start at the same pressure (assume same piston size in both for apples to apples), then the 3 chamber fork will ramp up more quickly - i.e. at equilibrium/sag, the 3 chamber fork will sit higher at the same pressure. I made it confusing because I was talking about the resulting pressure at a resulting travel/position - at that target, the 3 chamber fork will have a higher instantaneous pressure.
You're right, it is maybe a better mental model to imagine at a given chamber pressure what the displacement would be - so at the same instantaneous pressure, the 3 chamber fork sits higher because of the smaller effective chamber size, given the same starting pressure. So you can run a lower initial pressure while achieving the same sag and more midstroke support as a 2 chamber fork.
  • 2 0
 Something with Manitous 3 chamber system that hasn't been mentioned. Because the pos and neg chambers equalize when the shock pump is attached, its possible to adjust the travel of the fork just by attaching the shock pump and cycling the fork to the desired travel. This can also aid in mid-stroke support by increasing the neg chamber size as you are reducing the positive travel without adding the travel reducing spacers that act as volume reducers in the neg chamber. I really like the feel of the bigger neg chamber personally. Im running a 170mm Mezzer Pro adjusted to 145mm with this method and really like the feel over using the travel reducers.
  • 21 0
 Manitou Mezzer has been better than my Lyrik or Helm 2. This guy is probably going on my hardtail unless the new “XC” fork fits better.
  • 4 0
 My Mezzer either feels like the best fork I've ever used or is a pile of dogsh*&, no in between. It seems like every 2 rides (since new and after rebuilds) a massive amount of breakaway force is needed to get the fork going (200pounds of me jumping on the fork and its rigid)..... until I deflate and re-pressurize the 2 chambers.... then its good again for a couple rides. Very annoying. Combine this with massive CSU creak and im in the market for a new fork.
  • 3 0
 @maestroman21: the negative air spring could be losing pressure? I had the negative air chamber loose pressure on my Z2 and it made the breakaway force really high since you don’t have any air pressure pushing against the positive spring, and then the fork violently topped out on rebounds
  • 1 0
 @xciscool: That's exactly what is happening but since new and after 2 rebuilds, it is still an issue. Time to cut my losses.
  • 1 0
 @maestroman21: Did you grease the poppet valve o-ring in the main air piston when you rebuilt the fork?
  • 1 0
 @mastodian: yes. The time I rebuilt it. I assume the suspension shop did too.
  • 2 0
 @maestroman21: If the seals look good on the air spring I’d check the inside of the stanction tube to make sure it isn’t scratched or scorred in a way that’s preventing the lower o ring from actually sealing. Or see if you can get a new air spring if you haven’t already.
  • 3 0
 The Mezzer is great but the Mattoc is somehow even better.
  • 2 0
 @maestroman21: I've had similar issues with my Dorado. It's caused by oil getting in the air chambers and makes the positive bleed into the negative chamber which sucks the fork down and makes it feel like a potato. Equalising the chambers is a quick fix but doesn't last long.
You need to strip your air side and get the oil out. Rebuild and grease. Don't use too much splash bath oil in the spring leg when you do an oil change.
  • 2 1
 @maestroman21: I used a Mezzer PRO for the last 18 months , best fork I've had , once stup it was superb ,
took a while to do though and was miles better than all my previous forks- multiple RS ultimates , ohlins 36 etc
  • 1 0
 @maestroman21: Change the negative air seal from a -110 quad-ring to a 10x3mm metric o-ring and your height will stay consistent. Currently it's gaining air from the lowers into negative on deep compressions.

Likewise change the Q215 air seal for a Q214 and the stiction will go almost completely away.
  • 1 1
 @Dougal-SC: great suggestions. Not something I want to spend the effort on though. posting on the buy sell shortly for someone else to try and solve. haha
  • 20 0
 I've run alot of 3 chamber setups, I'd never describe them as wallowy. If set up correctly a 3 chamber has the most supportive midstroke of anything I've ridden.
  • 11 0
 I know a bunch of us have been making this same comment, but I really hope readers understand that forks like the Mezzer Pro & Mattoc Pro are literally designed to enable plushness in the initial stroke without wallowing thru the midstroke….when correctly set up. I weigh 190 lbs and my Mezzer is only 2 clicks in on LSC and one click on HSC. My Mattoc settings are more in the middle as I recall (currently ski season lol).
  • 1 0
 @frorider2: utterly totally agree
  • 1 0
 @frorider2: what sag/ psi are you running and at what travel? I’m similar weight and figured manitou mezzer guidelines is abit stiff
  • 14 0
 As a lighter rider who has struggled to get forks to be active at the top of travel without a ton of diving the 3-spring setup in the Mattoc Pro has been fantastic. I've got mine set up at 150mm and it's a great fit for the 140mm Propain Hugene used as an all-day trail bike (145lb, 100/40PSI). When the comes I could absolutely see replacing my Charger 2.1 Lyrik Ultimate with the Mezzer Pro.
  • 1 0
 something you can experiment with, is overinflating the negative air chamber. i found it can do some weird things to the overall spring rate, but all you need to do is pump up the fork with it compressed a few mm. that might help with your breakaway woes
  • 4 0
 @GumptionZA:
He said that te Mattoc 3 Air Chambers IS fantastic and spoke of Other "some" forks
  • 2 0
 @bansaiman: ah shet youre right, happy trails!
  • 1 0
 @GumptionZA:
You too :-)
  • 3 0
 I've got Mattoc 3 and Mezzer, at that (145lb) weight, Mezzer might be overdamped for you, im ~187 and running it 2 clicks from open, seems lots other people too. Mattoc is fantastic on hardtail @140mm, on flat janky terrain. Mezzer asks for more aggresive ride i guess, more vert. But hands are fine afterwards. Killer forks these Manitou are
  • 18 0
 hugely underrated fork.
  • 12 0
 BIGLY
  • 10 0
 It doesn't split the different in weight, that's some weird maths to even try to claim that. At ~7% lighter than a Pike, but almost 35% heavier than a SID, that's not middling. It's definitely not a XC fork with legs, it's a light trail fork, right around a Pike weight, even closer to a 34, and those are what it's going to be cross-shopped against. But it's not something that a competitive XC rider is going to consider when the SID and 34 SC both exist. You're just trying to hide the fact that Manitou doesn't have a truly lightweight competitor.
  • 12 6
 I disagree. I was talking about weight, but also damping and feel. To me, a trail fork is around 140 to 150mm, and an XC fork around 100-130. Weight is just one factor to determine what a fork is best for, but so too is how the fork rides (and a more important one in my opinion). The lighter damping feel, which I talk about, is a massive factor in coming to this conclusion. Not everything is a math's equation, which is why we ride things in the real world and not just on spreadsheets.

Thanks.
  • 4 0
 @henryquinney: Lighter damping? I read "Suits riders that like a damped feeling." in the cons as the opposite.
  • 10 1
 @maestroman21: For an XC fork that's quite apt, and it does give a damped feel, but for in its 150mm guise the damping is probably on the lighter side for what you would end up riding. It's half the battle reviewing a fork that covers such a wide range of travel - ha.
  • 3 0
 @henryquinney: Gotcha. Thanks.
  • 4 0
 @henryquinney:
If one can bleed a brake he can bleed a mc2 damper and before add or Exchange one shim for a thicker shim.
Problem solved for a heavier or Harder charging Rider at 150 mm travel
  • 5 0
 While I agree that Manitou doesn't do truly light XC forks, the competitor to an SID is the R7, not the Mattoc. The latter is firmly aimed at the Pike and its competitors.
  • 3 0
 @henryquinney: So this is an XC fork based on damping, but you'll end up riding it as trail fork (based on length?), and then the damping is a bit light for a trail fork, but it's also well damped (for an XC fork?)... This makes no sense.

Why does XC need lighter damping? Maybe absolutely lighter since the riders are generally lighter, but I'd bet most XC riders are using relatively more damping. They tend to hate bob, so the LSC will be cranked up, and with less travel they'll probably crank up the HSC to keep it dynamically high in the rough stuff to help prevent bottoming. It's way easier [for non-racers] to run a much softer damping when there is more travel to play with, not to mention more comfortable when you're not going race-pace.
  • 4 1
 @justinfoil: Yeah f&^% that Bob guy.
  • 7 0
 You seem adamant to just get more obtuse, no matter what I say or how openly I respond so I’m just gonna check out of this one. Your consistently sneering cynicism doesn’t come across as the constructive dialogue you pretend that it is. It’s as inane as it is tedious.

Cheers
  • 1 1
 @henryquinney: This one is easy for you to respond to. You're claiming that lighter damping leans a fork towards the XC category despite the travel, but provide no explanation as to why XC forks would always need lighter damping. Perhaps also explain why this fork would still be leaning towards XC despite your recommendation to run it with firmer (non-XC?) damping

I presented some points (I wasn't sneering when I made them; you might be projecting) as to why an XC fork, especially a typical shorter travel one, could benefit from firmer damping. I haven't heard any actual arguments as to _why_ an XC fork would always require lighter damping, only the acausal declaration that lighter damping means XCish.

It's now cynical to ask for explanations?
  • 1 1
 @maestroman21: To be clear, I do not hate bob, or Bob. To me, bob means traction! A nice supple fork off the top (off the sag, really) means I can just fire it into gnarly corners with good faith that it will stick that tire to the ground so nicely.

As for big-B Bob... well, Robert's your mother's brother, and uncles are always fun!
  • 11 1
 Have this fork and it punches way over it weight.

Damper is that new style tune. Fast and wide range

Air spring can be tricky to set up but the amount of protection/hold up from dual chamber forks is unmatched

Manitou forks are for the tuners and can outperform most if you take the time to set up.

If you know you know....
  • 4 12
flag GTscoob (Mar 13, 2024 at 12:09) (Below Threshold)
 Or just install a DSD Runt in your choice of a better fork so you can get the triple air chamber support without the quirks of a Manitou fork.
  • 5 2
 @GTscoob: No quirks at all, it's a great fork that's easy to set up. I think I'm on my sixth Mattoc, third Mastodon, and third Mezzer ... not to mention all my Mara Pros Smile
  • 8 0
 @sanchofula: lol, no ones ever kind of in on Manitou suspension
  • 1 0
 @mtmc99: Lol I'm also guilty: Mezzer, Mattoc, Mara, Mara Pro, Dorado, Circus.
  • 8 0
 @mtmc99: You seem to be implying that there is something religious about these suspension products!
  • 1 0
 @Manitou-Martyrs-Brigade:
Others could Sound the Same regarding their only Fox or RS Equipped bike fleet ;-)
Sorry ich someone IS as enthusiastic about His Manitou stuff
  • 1 0
 This is great to hear! I have the 120mm version in my cart for an upcoming hardtail build. Will be coming back to this thread for tuning guidance.
  • 2 0
 @nspace: You'll be fine. The tuning troubles that some people face are usually caused by them not following the factory setup guide. Start with what they suggest and you'll probably be 90% there. As much as I love my Mezzer the Mattoc was a lot easier to set and forget.
  • 1 0
 @skierdud89: That is great to hear!!! Thanks!
  • 2 0
 @skierdud89: Or just not taking the time to understand how the suspension works.
  • 2 0
 @Manitou-Martyrs-Brigade: lol, username checks out
  • 6 1
 @GTscoob: why get a bandaid when you can get something engineered at one?? don't take into consideration that its an eco. The damper is tuned in compensation for the different type of airspring. It's developing something together

and what quirks? build a bridge and get over the old manitou of the old days. They have a legit fork and you don't have to always buy the cookie cutter Fox/RS that everyone and their mom has....
  • 10 1
 @henryquinney

"For instance, if you wish to have a greater level of end stroke support you would add pressure in the ramp up. This in some instances can reduce the ride height of the fork because the threshold needed to activate and compress that second air chamber is lower"

This section isnt correct, adding pressure to the ramp chamber will make it harder for the first positive to start compressing it.

Also worth noting, that although manitou doesn't explicitly say you can, but it's possible to change the travel of this air spring with only a shockpump, connect like you would to add pressure to main positive/negative Chambers, compress the fork slowly to desired travel, take pump off and there it stays. This is how I run my mezzer, no travel spacers at around 150mm travel, I.e. added the 30mm ish of travel volume to the negative side. And it feels phenomenal for it.
  • 2 0
 Hi, yep, you're correct, I misspoke after getting lost in the less/mores. I addressed that in another comment. Thanks for taking the time to comment though, and that's a great tip regarding the travel change! Haha. Love it.
  • 1 0
 That sounds seriously cool. Does adjusting it in that manner improve small bump sensitivity and/or bump up your mid-stroke support?
  • 3 0
 @henryquinney: Ah I apologise, I did skim comments for that bit to be addressed but obviously missed it.

@lonzo in theory yes to both, as the topout is now handled purely by the negative air spring and not some kind of rubber bump stop, meaning the positive and negative air springs are fully balanced meaning its purely seal static friction you have to overcome, if a fork is resting against a rubber bumpstop then it's the static friction plus what ever the miss balance in the air spring is, minus what ever force the rubber bump stop is providing, however due to the hysteresis of rubber it won't be as good as proper air balance. This is why you actively want some negative travel. Also why rockshock c1 air spring didn't feel as good as the b1.

Also by using a significantly larger negative volume the negative spring is active way deeper in the travel, due to the extensional curve of air springs it makes a big difference, you will have to run higher main and ramp pressures due to this, but that doesn't make it too hard. I run iirc 30 and 40psi, respectively, over recommended pressures for my weight to get the sag, mid stroke and ramp I want.
  • 8 0
 Solid review Henry!

I've been riding Mattocs for nearly a decade, got the new Pro on my Zerode set at 150mm, works great, no complaints other than I wish it went to 160mm, but I suppose that's where the Mezzer steps in.

I don't know that the new Mattoc Pro is over damp, perhaps on a lighter rider, but I find it very active at my weight 195#.
  • 2 0
 I recently put a Mattoc Pro on my Taniwha Trail, too. Also have the Mezzer for long travel mode — Great setups!
  • 8 0
 Bought a used Raaw Madonna off PB. It came with a Fox 38 Kash and X2 shock. After doing a lot of fiddling around with both was never satisfies. While waiting for the X2 to be rebuilt for the second time, found a good deal on a Manitou Mezzer pro 180 and Manitou Mara pro shock ( local pickup). Totally transformed the bike. If you’re like me and know exactly what you want in performance and like to tinker, give the Manitou stuff a look. Totally underrated compared to the big players. A plus is they have plenty of on how to service your self. Can’t believe more core riders aren’t on Manitou.
  • 7 0
 The Mattoc Pro is my first Manitou fork and it easily outperformed the Charger 3 Pike it replaced. It also took 2x longer to setup and requires pressure checks 2x as often (small pressure changes make a big difference). I think it’s worth the effort but it’s not for everyone, and Rockshox is on the complete opposite end of the effort spectrum. I’m moving to a longer travel bike and a Mezzer will be on it.
  • 2 0
 It doesn't take a lot to outperform the Charger3
  • 8 1
 "I think you will find the air spring wallows and lacks adequate support." Not my experience at all.

For MC2 you should max out the LSC before turning the hsc.

Manitou's setup guide is hard to follow.
  • 9 0
 Give us a real Dorado review already.
  • 7 1
 One benefit of the axle is that it tightens against the hub, solving potential binding due to hub tolerances, something fox puts hella emphasis on some forks.. I actually find the hex axle neat.
  • 4 0
 Just wanted to add to my earlier post that I lost my rebound adjuster knob on the trail somewhere. After searching the hays group website they had knob kits for around $30 for most of their forks but didn’t see one for my Mezzer pro. I called them and a few days later the single blue knob was on my doorstep free of charge. Excellent customer service
  • 3 0
 Back then in 2016 I liked my Mattoc very much, but it had the tendency to sag into travel when it was below freezing, and the bushings became very sloppy after a year of bikeparking. Hopefully this is all solved now - this fork really looks great and rides great.
  • 2 0
 @cxfahrer These come out of the box with Maxima 3wt fluid (same as the Mastodon forks), so they are way less susceptible to colder temps affecting the damping! I rode mine well into the fall of last year with zero perceptible changes to performance
  • 1 0
 @therealmancub: No it was the air piston seal leaking air into the negative chamber, same thing happens with my Pike but there it equalizes when out of sag. With the Mattoc I had to put the shock pump on every time. But with some fresh grease on the piston it would not happen.
  • 1 0
 @cxfahrer2: It's actually air moving from the lower leg chamber to negative on deep compression. Change the negative seal from a Q110 to a 10x3mm metric o-ring and it's solved.
  • 3 0
 Setup Tips for 3 chamber forks:

Set irt as recommended
Pressure in main to 22% sag
Rebound as you Prüefer
Compressions completely open
Ride
When end of travel/bottom Out is too easy, pressure up 3 psi
If first part of travel is used to easily, use lsc click by click
Not enough initial Support? turn lsc open again and pressure up by 3 psi
Then again close lsc click by click
Only then pressure up again when lsc is completely closed.
Leave hsc alone or Max 1 cllick from open

Thus male travel Management Tagen care of by the pressure of main chamber for first half of travel and irt for later Support and bottom Out. Lsc only for fintuning

Rebound as fast according to your riding style as possoble that it doesnt start Pogoing or hitting you.
  • 4 0
 One of the best forks I've owed was a Manitou Minute back in 2000 and I'm too old. I don't know why and how they've lost their way as a company. Glad they are coming back.
  • 3 0
 Same here.. my old 2001 Minute with the MARS air spring with coil negative and ABS+ damper was so good. Manitou made some crummy forks in the late 2000s and early 2010s and also lost their OEM deals on new bikes. Their forks in the last 10 years like the Mattoc and then Mezzer have been really good
  • 1 0
 I agree - old baby blue minute MRD titanium is one of the very few old bike bits I regret selling....
  • 4 0
 Now that most people use front fenders, the reverse arch doesn't visually stand out much anymore. Hopefully that reduces some of the comments about the looks
  • 2 0
 It is actually becoming more rare. Back in the days Pace had the arch at the back, later it was DT. But I think DT dropped i with their later offerings. My Magura forks have an arch at the back (and at the front) but they quit making forks. DVO had double arches between the stanchion guards, but I their DH fork is upside up now.
  • 3 0
 I think it actually makes a lot of sense - less crap on the stanchion seals - surprised it was not mentioned as a positive in the review.
  • 6 0
 @DaveRobinson81: That's actually one of the big reasons to not get a fork with a forward arch. My first suspension fork was a RS Judy TT. The arch catches the muck and disposes it onto your fork seals (though that fork had boots over the stanchions). My next two forks were Marzocchi which had less of an arch in the front (more in between and much more slender) so that it doesn't act as much as a mudcatcher/-reflector. After that I've only used Magura forks with both but slender arches. I don't see myself ever go back to these forwards arches. Again, it isn't just the rearwards arch working as fender. It is primarily the absence of a big catching net in the front disposing the mud onto the fork seals.
  • 2 0
 Rode this fork a bit. Loved it on a XC/Trail bike at the 140mm setting. Great product. The set up made me mad but once i figured out how to set it up, it was easy and easy to tune in. It's not an enduro fork at all but a solid light weight trail fork for 120 travel bikes.
  • 2 1
 How does changing compression change "dynamic" sag, which I assume to mean sag w/rider on it ("Rider" sag in the moto world)....not sure I follow and not how compression works and well within the error band of fork sag measurement in general:

"During telemetry testing, a single click of high-speed compression would result in around a 2% change in dynamic sag"

Cool fork though!
  • 4 1
 Dynamic sag is (I think) the average ride height while moving on trail. Hard to get a measure of it without some sort of data collection so not really something most folks measure.
  • 8 0
 Dynamic sag refers to the average sag the fork encounters during riding. By winding on a bit more compression, the fork will be held up higher in the stroke during normal riding, reducing the dynamic sag.
  • 1 0
 @Jake-Whitehouse: I understand how compression works just wasn't sure about the "dynamic" sag thing, it's not a term that is used often but makes sense relative to the comment about telemetry use.
  • 3 0
 @mtmc99 got it in one! It's impossible to read without telemetry, but it's great to see when the damper settings have such an effect.
  • 5 0
 foward it's worth, you spelled forward wrong
  • 2 1
 My understanding is that the Comp version of the fork uses a different chassis, that includes thicker fork stanchions for more stiffness.
Might be worth double checking.
I rather like my Pro Mattoc on my '23 Smuggler and it certainly assisted in me reaching my 28# ready to ride weight in a size L, with tools on board.
  • 2 0
 Oh interesting. I checked the site many times but got a bit lost in the sauce. I'll reach out to Manitou directly and look to confirm ASAP. Thank you
  • 2 0
 My understanding as well, lower grade material - upside is stiffness, downside is mass.
  • 5 0
 @henryquinney: Comp has 6000 series stanchions, Exp and Pro have 7000. Crowns are notably diff between the Comp and Exp/Pro, but whether that's the result of machining or mfg process and material differences I can't say. The Comp is not compatible with the IRT aftermarket kit while the Exp is. I picked up a Mezzer Exp and the IRT at the same time as it really does make a huge difference. A friend of mine was stoked enough on my set up that he replaced the Factory 38 on his Ripmo with the Pro. Of note, my older Comp, stock on a RSD Sargeant, also has a hydro bottom out. It explained a lot as to how the fork was so controlled even when I did things decidedly wrong. Had no idea about that until its first service. I hope they kept that on newer generations. It's a helluva selling point that they should really, really market more.
  • 4 0
 @hexonjuan: That's some great information! I reached out to somebody at Hayes Manitou, and have amended the description as per their explanation.

Comp has less crown machining on a hollow bore crown and uses straight wall legs, so is slightly different, but the Pro and Expert share the same chassis.
  • 1 0
 @hexonjuan: From what I understand it may be possible to install IRT with the 'piston' from IVA and different O rings - I haven't checked personally though.
  • 1 0
 @DaveRobinson81: That is some excellent intel. Glad I came back to this. I had considered making my own piston for it, but a bunch of other need to do projects came on board.
  • 4 0
 I had the 34 grip 2 (new version) and I think my Mattoc pro is way better. There's literally nothing I miss from the fox
  • 1 0
 I've been running a 2016 version of this fork on my hardtail since - hmmmmmm - 2016! Just had a full rebuild, incluing adjust from 120 to 140. It's my darling warm weather go to for the TJ & about to go on something newer with more modern geo. It's big pluses for me..., holds up beautifully in the mid-stroke, with an initial plushness off the top. But - I've found - not so in cold weather. For that - I have a same gen Pike, which stays more plush in the bitter cold. But as it warms this Spring - the Mattoc Pro gets it's rightful place gracing the hardtail. I love it.
  • 1 0
 Give 3wt Maxima (same as what's in Mastodon) a shot, it's got a much lower working temp that should help your performance in the colder weather
  • 2 0
 @therealmancub: HAIL out there in Mwakee! Good hint with the Maxima 3wt. I've been using Dirt Labs in Longmont for servicing my sussy bits. Evrything comes back better. Including the Mattoc. Not sure what special slippery sauces they used - but it def works way better. That daid..., I'll give 'em a jingle & see what they think about the 3wt stuff. I trust Maxima products, and have experience using lighter sauces in motorbike forks - so yur hint sure makes sense. THANKS!!
  • 1 0
 @jimicarl: Hail and well met! I ran 3wt in mine for a late-fall enduro race in Marquette, MI and experienced zero issues - if they have the right stuff for Mastodon, they'll have the right stuff for you! You're lucky, I yearn for CO trail daily!
  • 1 0
 Talked to the service guys at DirtLabs, who warned me about 3w, for not having the viscosity to cling well to the bushing interface. I asked about 5w & they felt that was better & should improve small-bump sensi. And..., I already have a jug. So gonna give that a shot & see how it works. Appreciate the hint! Seriously got me thinking!!
  • 1 0
 Manitou would have more happy customers If they sold the fork with a proper shock pump. So may users don't pressurize the negative spring properly, because air escapes while the pump is removed. They should just include a digital pump with two stage head.
  • 1 0
 The high-speed isn't activated just because the fork goes deep (assuming that's what you mean by "whole column of oil... in one compression"), it's activated because fork is compressing fast enough that the flow through the orifice is insufficient.

"This is why in some ways low speed is often merely about setting a threshold of when the oil diverts to the high speed, and why high speed adjustments will have an effect on the overall damping level of the suspension unit."

If you look at the charts SRAM provided for Charger 3, they changed it to be _more_ like this. The height of the knee in the curve, the threshold of force when the HSC is activated, is controlled _exclusively_ by the LSC setting in the Charger 3, that's the major difference. If the MC2 is similar, then they got closer to what you described as less than ideal.
  • 5 5
 Is there a reason that we talk about the rockshox pike and lyrik, neither of which match the stanchion diameter, and the sid (lightweight over performance), but somehow avoid the fox 34 that just so happens to have similar dimensions, weight and available travel options? The only reference is on cost…
  • 4 1
 because 130mm seems to be a little bit of an odd position in current purpose divisions, xc/down country tend to go for the now very capable but significantly lighter 120mm models. "Trail" is now really 140/150mm where there slightly burlier (and heavier) Pike holds some ground but the usual +10mm fork "upgrade", if not specced, is 36/lyrik.
  • 2 0
 It compete competitively with Fox 34 Grip2. But when reducing it to 120mm travel, it looks overbuilt at around 1750g against something like RS Sid Ultimate at sub 1500g.
  • 2 0
 The SID is an XC competition fork, isn't it? I think that's a different market. Doesn't RockShox offer the Revelation for less superlightweight and a bit more durable XC stuff? I must admit I'm not up to speed with all their models and suffixes, but I think SID has always been their lightest offering.
  • 2 0
 @vinay: Yeah. Pike is their equivalent-ish.
It's just that Mattoc can be reduced down to 120mm. And Sid (35mm stanchion) can be bought as long as 120mm.
So, they overlap in the travel. Just not really overlap in the damping performance with Sid's dinky Race Day damper.

Manitou might put R7 Pro as a Sid competitor. But then the current R7 Pro (32mm stanchion at 1650g) is old and need update. It doesn't even make sense when Mattoc is only 100g more with stiffer 34mm stanchion, more travel, IRT, HBO, and better damper.
  • 1 0
 @Hexsense: Yeah, I think we agree that merely the amount of suspension travel isn't quite a good metric for categorizing forks. That would put DJ forks up against XC forks! It is the intended use which matters and for what the Mattoc is able to cope with, the weight seems fine.
  • 7 7
 "It works well, but I don't think it's in any way an improvement compared to a standard bolt-through, irrespective of any claimed benefit of increased stiffness."

Irrespective of any increased stiffness? That's exactly why it would be considered an improvement! It's not complicated to use, doesn't require any special tools, and all fork thru-axles are brand-specific and often model-specific already, so it doesn't matter at all that it's not that same as anyone else's. If it _is_ stiffer, it _is_ better, period.

By that thinking, one could say that "standard" thru-axles (who TF says "bolt-through"?) aren't in any way an improvement on QR axles, irrespective of any claimed benefit of increased stiffness".
  • 3 0
 I've had a Mattoc Pro 160 on my trail bike for the past 6 years. It just works.
  • 2 0
 Henry, would you please share your fork tune setup? Rebound, PSI, compression, etc.
  • 1 0
 Have the gen 2 setup great for my kid, remove 1 or 2 shims from the rebound piston and it no longer feels/looks overdamped for him
  • 3 0
 Beware the MTBR Manitou cult. Quinney is scared
  • 3 5
 Exactly. The worst thing about riding a Manitou fork is having to join MTBR and read through 40 pages of hacks to make it ride well.
  • 7 0
 @GTscoob: I will have you know that the most recent Mattoc thread is only 26 pages at this point.
  • 5 0
 Please, "Cult of Manitou" is no longer our preferred label.
  • 1 0
 @Manitou-Martyrs-Brigade: how should I address myself? er my friend, asking for a friend
  • 3 1
 This is the most nonsense review I've seen on pinkbike since Levy reviewed the 140 status thinking it was a 160.
  • 2 0
 Could the more complex set up of this fork make it any better than the other top forks?
  • 6 0
 yes - if you are willing to spend the time, you will likely get a better result for your riding style and conditions. Is it worth the effort? That's something only you can answer depending on whether you feel limited by your suspension. I'm on the Mezzer (which has same setup as the Mattoc) and the midstroke support and suppleness off the top has been game changing for me. YMMV - but if you do your own work, Manitou's are a pleasure to work on and have very active (i.e., cultish) followers that have put out guides for further customizations. And the customer support is superb (at least in the US).
  • 4 0
 yes. Feels better than my 34 ever did
  • 6 0
 @aschohn: Mezzer/Mara for the win.
  • 3 0
 I quit guessing with my Mattoc Pro. Just go with the factory settings. That's as good as I've been able to get it. Not sayin' there's no room for twiddling. But I'd rather spend my time riding. And frankly..., I'm not out to beat the bro-train to the trailhead. "Close" is plenty good for me. And the factory settings are dang close by my gauge.
  • 2 4
 I'm sure it's a great fork, but their warranty experience, at least in Canada, leaves something to be desired. I had a Sunringle SRC hub fail twice (with 10 rides in between failures) on a Rocky Mountain Blizzard, and I was waiting for 6 weeks for parts. Eventually my LBS took pity on me, gave me a new hub for free, and went after Rocky to reimburse them. I won't consider any Hayes group products as a result.
  • 1 0
 yeah i had a manitou machete and gave up trying to get it serviced up here.
  • 5 0
 I can only speak to my experience with S4 suspension and Manitou, but their customer service has been fantastic in the last couple years. Had a creaky CSU and an issue with the main seal in the airspring. Both times it was dealt with quickly and at no charge (other than having to ship the fork to S4 once for them to inspect the airspring issue).
  • 3 0
 The guy I know in Canada Zac is a pretty on the ball guy , wish we had someone like him for manitou in the UK instead of the shitshow it has been,. ive been a massive fan and advocate of mezzos and mattock, shame you have to factor in the support is none existent
  • 1 0
 Did you reach out to them directly? They can ship direct to you in Canada...
  • 2 0
 @Compositepro: Zac works at SuspensionWerx now. Not sure who services/warranties now but Elladee is the service rep for Hayes now.
  • 1 0
 double post sorry
  • 2 0
 Try DirtLabs in Longmont, CO (north of Denver. Same hood as Boulder.) They're a factory service ctr for Manitou. I've had them work on both Manitou and Fox. They're magic. And especially compared to Fox service, the DirtLab staffers actually have souls & give a RAF. They're officially getting ALL my suspension work from here on out.
  • 1 1
 When Manitou first released the black reverse arch fork, I brought mine home and promptly broke it hopping off of a curb hahah
  • 1 1
 ....of cpurse pressure up MAIN CHAMBER for first half travel and IRT for the second part and bottom Out. ONLY ONE CHAMBER AT A TIME
  • 1 0
 Remember when 32mm stanchions were the norm? Now these 34mm forks look tiny.
  • 2 1
 The reverse arch is clever… like a Fox.
  • 7 0
 Now that the patent expired, you'll be seeing quite few reverse arch forks coming out this summer
  • 4 0
 @Swangarten: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery!
  • 1 0
 @Swangarten: I guess I should have made the joke clearer, I thought capitalising Fox was enough ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • 2 0
 Only downside of the reverse arch in my book, is if you use a hitch rack that uses J-hooks over the tire & against the fork. You gotta prevent the hook from riding on the stantions!! Front arches prevent the hook from comcting the stantions. But... I made some wrap-around naugahyde(sp?) velcro-closed protectors for all my bikes. But even something like like a section of foam pipe i sulation will work.
  • 2 0
 @jimicarl: Yup, it is indeed the only downside and it's minor, it's really a rack problem, not a fork problem. I use chunks of pool noodles and some Velcro straps, bike ends up, if anything, more secure.
  • 1 0
 @jimicarl: That was an issue I hadn't thought of. Sold the rack I had and got a oneup (it was nice to have the excuse lol)
  • 1 0
 @jimicarl: you can't just turn your bars 180⁰?
  • 1 0
 @riderseventy7: The problem with that is it would place the clamp too low on the tire to be safe. Would have a high chance of slipping off.
  • 1 0
 what the hell does wallow mean?
  • 1 0
 How much of this is gonna be on the test?
  • 2 0
 ALL OF IT!! Jes gots tuh luke foewurd toouht!!
  • 1 0
 They can't even spell "Forward"
  • 2 2
 Doesn’t Manitou sponsor the Pinkbike racing team?
  • 2 0
 wasnt that MRP?

nevermind, some quick googling tells me I am wrong and you are right
  • 1 0
 @mtmc99: wasnt mrp pb academy sponsor one season?
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