Review: Kavenz VHP 16 - The Traction Master
Kavenz is an offshoot of 77 Designz, a small German company best known for its chain guides and cockpit accessories. Back in 2019, we caught a glimpse of a raw aluminum prototype being rolled around at Sea Otter, one of the early iterations of the bike that's reviewed here. Kavenz has been impressively transparent throughout the entire development process, even going so far as to produce a series of videos providing a behind-the-scenes look at the highs and lows of creating a new bike.
The final product is the VHP16, which has 160mm of rear travel and 29” wheels, with the option of running a 27.5” rear wheel by swapping out the lower shock mount.
The final product is the VHP16, which has 160mm of rear travel and 29” wheels, with the option of running a 27.5” rear wheel by swapping out the lower shock mount.
Kavenz VHP 16 Details
• Wheel size: 29" or mullet
• 7020 aluminum frame, made in Germany
• Travel: 160mm (r) / 170mm fork
• 64-degree head angle
• 425mm chainstays
• Weight: 34.5 lb / 15.6 kg as shown
• Frame w/ DHX2 shock: 4,170 grams, 3,330 grams frame only
• Price: €2,495 - frame only, no shock (Approximately $2,512 USD without tax)
• 5-year warranty
• 77-store.com/Store/Kavenz/
• Wheel size: 29" or mullet
• 7020 aluminum frame, made in Germany
• Travel: 160mm (r) / 170mm fork
• 64-degree head angle
• 425mm chainstays
• Weight: 34.5 lb / 15.6 kg as shown
• Frame w/ DHX2 shock: 4,170 grams, 3,330 grams frame only
• Price: €2,495 - frame only, no shock (Approximately $2,512 USD without tax)
• 5-year warranty
• 77-store.com/Store/Kavenz/
Kavenz offers semi-custom geometry, and during the ordering process it's possible to select from six different reach numbers, three seat tube lengths, and two head tube lengths. It's semi-custom because figures like the head and seat angle and chainstay length are fixed, in order to make sure the bike's handling stays relatively close to Kavenz's intentions.
Kavenz sells the VHP 16 as a frame-only, with a few dropper post and shock options that can be added during checkout. At the moment EXT's Storia shock is the sole option available due to supply issues, but that should change this summer. That frame is priced at €2,495, or approximately $2,512 USD without a shock. My test frame arrived with a Fox DHX2 shock, and I build it up with a 170mm Fox 38, SRAM Code RSC brakes, and a hybrid SRAM / Shimano drivetrain (more about that later).
I ran Bontrager's Line Pro carbon wheels, which were mounted up with my preferred winter tire setup – a 2.5” Maxxis Assegai with an EXO+ casing, and a 2.4” DHR II with a Double Down casing, both with MaxxGrip rubber. A Fox Transfer post handled dropper duties, and I used a 175mm and 200mm post at different points during testing. The final touches were a 25mm rise Truvativ Descendant aluminum bar, a 40mm Race Face Turbine stem, an Ergon SM Enduro saddle, and DMR Deathgrip lock-on grips.
 | It's on the descents where things get good. And I mean really, really good, especially if you're the type of rider that enjoys tight, technical downhill trails, the kind where a new chunky puzzle waits around every corner. |
Construction and Features
The VHP's 7020 aluminum frame is available in either a raw, untreated finish, sandblasted and black anodized, or powder coated. Personally, I like how the raw finish looks – it sort of gives it a rat rod aesthetic, especially after it gets a few scuffs and scrapes.
Getting the bike built up didn't test my patience too much, but I did need to do some experimenting to get the chainline correct. That's one of the potential hindrances of a bike with an idler pulley and an upper guide – it's even more important to make sure everything is lined up properly, or the chain will rub against the guide in the easier gears, which is when you're most likely to hear it.
Getting the internal housing all situated wasn't the quickest procedure, but they were totally silent once I was finished.
There's room for up to a 2.6" rear tire.
There are holes on both sides of the headtube for running the rear brake housing, and Kavenz thoughtfully includes a little package of putty that can be used to plug and seal the hole that doesn't get used. The brake, dropper, and derailleur housing are internally routed, where foam tubes help to keep everything quiet.
Only one bearing size is used for the entire frame, and it's a common, 6902 size, which will be welcome news for anyone who's ever embarked on a frustrating hunt for an obscure-sized bearing.
Other details to note include a threaded bottom bracket, plenty of room for a water bottle inside the front triangle, and a removable ISCG 05 adaptor for running a bash guard – I put 77 Designz's aluminum Crash Plate to good use on multiple occasions.
All of the bearings are the same size, and it's possible to swap out the lower shock mount to run a 27.5" rear wheel.
A 14-tooth idler pulley helps prevent the pedal kickback that would typically occur due to the rearward axle path.
Geometry & Sizing
As I mentioned earlier, Kavenz's geometry is semi-custom, with 36 possible combinations to choose from. Given how many different bikes I end up riding over the course of a year I'm pretty familiar with the numbers that work well for my riding style and 5'11” height. I chose a 480mm reach, a 125mm head tube, and a seat tube length of 450mm, numbers that pretty much equate to a size large from other manufacturers. I did find myself second-guessing that seat tube length when I was waiting for the frame to arrive, but once I confirmed that I could fit a 200mm dropper post my worries subsided.
At the moment, the chainstay length isn't customizable – it's 425mm for all sizes – although that may change if there's enough demand for something longer. While that number looks extra short on paper, don't forget the much of the Kavenz's axle path is rearward, and at sag the chainstay length measures 436mm.
Suspension Design
Any guesses as to what VHP stands for? No, it's not 'Very High Pivot', because while the main pivot of this bike is high, it's not that high, especially compared to something like the Forbidden Dreadnought, which uses a single pivot suspension design. VHP stands for Virtual High Pivot, a reference to the fact that the bike uses a Horst link suspension layout, and the 16 refers to the centimeters of vertical wheel travel.
The rear wheel travels rearward for the first 100mm of travel, and then gradually moves forward for the remainder of the travel. It doesn't have the same completely-rearward axle path as a high single-pivot bike typically would, but the axle path is much more rearward than it would be if the main pivot were in line with the top of the chainring, the typical position for many Horst link bikes.
Creating a bike with relatively high anti-squat values and a moderate amount of anti-rise was on Kavenz's list of goals, and they were able to achieve those traits via the location of the idler pulley. At sag with a 34/50 tooth combo, the VHP has 140% anti-squat, with anti-rise levels that sit just below 100% throughout the travel.
There's a 23% leverage ratio progression, which allows the VHP to work well with a coil shock or a larger volume air shock.
Test Bike Setup
A 400 lb/in spring on the Fox DHX2 put me right at 18mm or 27% sag, and by the end of the test period my setting were as follows (all numbers are from closed): HSR: 5, LSR: 14, HSR: 5, LSC: 14, HSC: 4. Those are relatively close to Fox's recommendations, with the exception of the low-speed rebound – I've found their recommended settings to be unrideably slow, and not just on this bike.
For the 170mm Fox 38 I ran 84 psi with one token, 4 clicks of HSC, 13 LSC, 8 LSR, and 4 HSR, numbers that have remained pretty consistent between the various 38-equipped test bikes that I've been on lately.
Testing took place in Bellingham, Washington, and the surrounding area over the course of the last two months, with conditions running the full spectrum of winter possibilities, everything from hero dirt to a gloppy mud and snow mixture.
A 400 lb/in spring on the Fox DHX2 put me right at 18mm or 27% sag, and by the end of the test period my setting were as follows (all numbers are from closed): HSR: 5, LSR: 14, HSR: 5, LSC: 14, HSC: 4. Those are relatively close to Fox's recommendations, with the exception of the low-speed rebound – I've found their recommended settings to be unrideably slow, and not just on this bike.
For the 170mm Fox 38 I ran 84 psi with one token, 4 clicks of HSC, 13 LSC, 8 LSR, and 4 HSR, numbers that have remained pretty consistent between the various 38-equipped test bikes that I've been on lately.
Testing took place in Bellingham, Washington, and the surrounding area over the course of the last two months, with conditions running the full spectrum of winter possibilities, everything from hero dirt to a gloppy mud and snow mixture.
Mike Kazimer
Location: Bellingham, WA, USA
Age: 38
Height: 5'11" / 180cm
Inseam: 33" / 84cm
Weight: 160 lbs / 72.6 kg
Industry affiliations / sponsors: None
Instagram: @mikekazimer
Location: Bellingham, WA, USA
Age: 38
Height: 5'11" / 180cm
Inseam: 33" / 84cm
Weight: 160 lbs / 72.6 kg
Industry affiliations / sponsors: None
Instagram: @mikekazimer
Climbing
Kavenz claims that the VHP's high anti-squat levels make it climb like a cross-country bike, a line that should be cause for some serious eye-rolling from even the most gullible reader. In the words of Public Enemy, don't believe the hype. Remember, we're talking about a 34+ pound enduro bike here – it'd take some serious wizardry for it to even come close to feeling like a cross-country machine.
Hyperbole aside, the VHP is a very competent climber, assuming you're comparing it to other bikes in this category. That 77.5-degree seat tube angle is nice and steep, and the fact that the actual seat tube angle is 75-degrees helps ensure that long-legged riders don't end up too far over the rear axle. Even at slower speeds it never felt like a handful, and I was able to navigate through whatever slippery roots got in my way without much fuss.
The rear suspension stays impressively calm during seated climbing efforts, especially for a bike with a coil shock. That calmness does diminish during out of the saddle efforts, and in those instances the shock will cycle partway through its travel with each pedal stroke. I made use of the climb switch for fire road grinds in order to make the bike feel as efficient as possible; on more rolling terrain or technical climbs I was fine leaving it open and maximizing the amount of traction. I'd put it behind the Propain Spindrift and Santa Cruz Nomad as far as how efficient it feels, but I also didn't have any qualms about taking it out for longer, more pedal-y rides (assuming there was a good downhill at the end), something I was less likely to do with the Norco Shore.
What about the idler pulley wheel? It kept spinning without any hiccups in some seriously muddy conditions, and I can't say that I ever felt like it was hindering my progress. There's no denying that it does add a little extra drag - I'd say it's similar to what you'd experience with a chain guide that has a lower guide wheel – but it never bothered me out on the trail.
![Kavenz VHP 16 review]()
Kavenz claims that the VHP's high anti-squat levels make it climb like a cross-country bike, a line that should be cause for some serious eye-rolling from even the most gullible reader. In the words of Public Enemy, don't believe the hype. Remember, we're talking about a 34+ pound enduro bike here – it'd take some serious wizardry for it to even come close to feeling like a cross-country machine.
Hyperbole aside, the VHP is a very competent climber, assuming you're comparing it to other bikes in this category. That 77.5-degree seat tube angle is nice and steep, and the fact that the actual seat tube angle is 75-degrees helps ensure that long-legged riders don't end up too far over the rear axle. Even at slower speeds it never felt like a handful, and I was able to navigate through whatever slippery roots got in my way without much fuss.
The rear suspension stays impressively calm during seated climbing efforts, especially for a bike with a coil shock. That calmness does diminish during out of the saddle efforts, and in those instances the shock will cycle partway through its travel with each pedal stroke. I made use of the climb switch for fire road grinds in order to make the bike feel as efficient as possible; on more rolling terrain or technical climbs I was fine leaving it open and maximizing the amount of traction. I'd put it behind the Propain Spindrift and Santa Cruz Nomad as far as how efficient it feels, but I also didn't have any qualms about taking it out for longer, more pedal-y rides (assuming there was a good downhill at the end), something I was less likely to do with the Norco Shore.
What about the idler pulley wheel? It kept spinning without any hiccups in some seriously muddy conditions, and I can't say that I ever felt like it was hindering my progress. There's no denying that it does add a little extra drag - I'd say it's similar to what you'd experience with a chain guide that has a lower guide wheel – but it never bothered me out on the trail.
Descending
It's on the descents where things get good. And I mean really, really good, especially if you're the type of rider that enjoys tight, technical downhill trails, the kind where a new chunky puzzle waits around every corner. In those types of situations, the VHP absolutely thrives, and even if you make a mistake or three there's a good chance this bike will let you get away with it.
Steeps, rough tracks are its forte, and it exhibited a surprising level of nimbleness at slower speeds. It was easy to unweight and move the back end around when necessary, and carving into sharp turns didn't pose any problems either. If anything, the way that the VHP 16 sits into its travel when cornering had me on the hunt for tight sequential corners – the way it grabs onto the ground through the turns is a downright addictive sensation.
If I lived on Vancouver's North Shore, the VHP 16 would be on my shortlist of ideal bikes for that zone, an area filled with countless square-edged hits and momentum sucking roots. Put that type of terrain in front of the VHP 16 and it'll just plow right on through, unphased and ready for whatever's next. Bigger drops were dispatched with zero issues – there's a smooth ramp-up at the end of the stroke, and I didn't have any harsh bottom-outs.
It's also worth mentioning how satisfyingly silent this bike is. I'm a sucker for a quiet bike, and the Kavenz passed that test with flying colors. The idler pulley and the chainstay angle reduces any possible chainslap noise to a bare minimum, which meant that the only thing I heard out on the trail was the sound of my tires rolling over the ground and the wind rushing past my ears.
Downsides? Well, even though I mentioned that the Kavenz felt surprisingly nimble in the steeps, it's not all that lively when it comes to hitting jumps or popping over mid-trail obstacles. It's more of a ground-hugger than an aluminum kangaroo, and it takes more effort to get it airborne compared to bikes with less rearward axle paths. It's obviously still possible to take to the sky, it's just that it doesn't have the 'pop' to its handling that would have encouraged me to seek out bonus air time. Speeding up the rebound on the DHX2 shock helped, and I'm sure an air shock would add a little more pep to the VHP 16's step, but at the end of the day it wouldn't be the bike I'd pick if I wanted a spritely, energetic jumping machine.
Kavenz VHP 16
Norco Shore
How does it compare?
The Norco Shore and the VHP 16 both use a Horst Link suspension layout with an idler pulley, and they both have aluminum frames with a coil shock, so a comparison seems appropriate, even though the Shore does have 20mm more rear travel and 27.5” wheels.
When it comes to geometry, the Shore has a 480mm reach, a 63-degree head angle, and a 77.7 degree seat tube angle. Other than the head angle being slacker, those numbers are very similar to the Kavenz's 480mm reach, 64-degree head angle, and 77.5-degree seat tube angle. The difference lies in the chainstay length – the size large Shore's measure 445mm (they change by 5mm per size), while the VHP16's measure 425mm.
The climbing position on the two bikes is nearly identical and works very well to ease the sting of long climbs. Neither bike is wildly light, but the Shore's frame is decidedly heavy, at around 2 pounds more than the Kavenz, which can make those climbs feel like even more of a grind.
The longer chainstays and slacker head angle give the Shore a greater need for speed than the Kavenz; when the miles per hour drop the Shore turns into a handful much quicker than the VHP 16. Even with those smaller wheels, the Shore's wheelbase is 37mm longer than the VHP 16. I found the Kavenz to be more versatile, a bike I was more likely to grab for quick after-work laps versus the Shore, which is better suited to shuttle or chairlift accessed laps, or at least rides where the focus is entirely on the descent.
The Shore gains points back in its favor when it comes to price – the frame with shock is $2,099 USD, which is significantly less than the Kavenz, although keep in mind we're comparing a semi-custom, made-in-Germany frame to one that's mass-produced in Asia.
Technical Report
Code RSC brakes: The Codes RSCs are still some of my favorite brakes currently on the market. They're consistent, easy to bleed, and with enough adjustments that I can get them dialed in to feel exactly how I want. I do think there's room for something even more powerful in SRAM's lineup, a brake for DH bikes / e-bikes and hard-charging enduro riders. Super Codes? Then the Codes could trickle down into the trail bike realm - I know I'd chose Codes over the G2 brakes any day.
Mismatched drivetrain: I was partway through building up this bike when I realized I didn't have a Shimano shifter with a band clamp, and I also didn't have an adaptor to mount an I-Spec EV shifter to a Code brake. Rats. I decided to stick with the Shimano chain, cranks, and cassette, and pair it with a SRAM GX derailleur and shifter. That way I could benefit from Shimano's Hyperglide+ technology, and not need to buy any adaptors or other parts. It shifts just fine, and while sticking with parts from just one company is still the way to go for the absolute best performance, I don't think I'm sacrificing much with this hybrid setup.
Fox Transfer dropper post: Fox's Transfer post is one of the more expensive cable-actuated posts on the market, but that's backed up by a high level of reliability. I started off with the 175mm version and then swapped out for the new 200mm length, and both posts stayed free of any play for the duration. On really muddy rides the return speed would occasionally drop, but a good clean and a few drops of lube around the dust wiper fixed that issue.
![Kavenz VHP 16 review]()
Code RSC brakes: The Codes RSCs are still some of my favorite brakes currently on the market. They're consistent, easy to bleed, and with enough adjustments that I can get them dialed in to feel exactly how I want. I do think there's room for something even more powerful in SRAM's lineup, a brake for DH bikes / e-bikes and hard-charging enduro riders. Super Codes? Then the Codes could trickle down into the trail bike realm - I know I'd chose Codes over the G2 brakes any day.
Mismatched drivetrain: I was partway through building up this bike when I realized I didn't have a Shimano shifter with a band clamp, and I also didn't have an adaptor to mount an I-Spec EV shifter to a Code brake. Rats. I decided to stick with the Shimano chain, cranks, and cassette, and pair it with a SRAM GX derailleur and shifter. That way I could benefit from Shimano's Hyperglide+ technology, and not need to buy any adaptors or other parts. It shifts just fine, and while sticking with parts from just one company is still the way to go for the absolute best performance, I don't think I'm sacrificing much with this hybrid setup.
Fox Transfer dropper post: Fox's Transfer post is one of the more expensive cable-actuated posts on the market, but that's backed up by a high level of reliability. I started off with the 175mm version and then swapped out for the new 200mm length, and both posts stayed free of any play for the duration. On really muddy rides the return speed would occasionally drop, but a good clean and a few drops of lube around the dust wiper fixed that issue.
Pros
+ Standout performer in steep, rough terrain
+ Very, very quiet
+ Semi-custom geometry creates wide range of fit options
Cons
- Pricey, and in short supply
- Not much 'pop' for jumping or hopping over obstacles, at least in this configuration
- Chainstays remain the same for all sizes
Pinkbike's Take
| The crew over at Kavenz should pat themselves on the back for a job well done with the VHP 16. Its composure on steep, rough trails is excellent, as is the traction it delivers when conditions take a turn for the worse. It's not an easy, or inexpensive frame to obtain, but riders that are lucky enough to get one for themselves are in for a real treat. |
Author Info:
www.sicklines.com/2022/06/12/kavenz-vhp16-mx-review
1150€ is a fair price for a high performance frame only. Airdop with their edit frame for 1200 pounds is a similar story.
This bike also adds custom sizing. Thats a big winner in my book. The reviews for this frame are also very high- it just rides freaking well and while I haven't tried it I'd bet it rides better than that Propain.
The appeal of a boutique brand is multifaceted. Part of it is the crypto-kitty effect; people like exclusive stuff, and there is plenty of rational reasons to want exclusive beyond being a rich douche. Another is a desire for something different. When you're in your mid 30s (most of us) and you've been riding for 2 decades, you can start to get bored. You work full time and might have kids, so your riding time is less but you (finally) have stable income, so you can afford things like this. Its fun to have something a little different, that isn't mass manufactured, and you know your supporting a new, fresh, small company. Because of things like their vlog, you feel a personal connection with the guys who brought this to life, and you want them to be successful.
TL;DR: rock bottom pricing isn't the #1 desirable trait for a frame.
Ita funny, you described my situation perfectly. Late 30s, 3 kids, competitive racing days are over, etc. Ill be replacing my outdated 2014 jekyll later this year, and this bike actually has now made my short list when the time comes. My days of looking to pop off things are long over, give me something that can plow, but still be nimble in tight, steep, techy situations. This looks like it could be a winner.
1. Geometry and Wheel size
Why would geometry be a determining factor in pricing? When I weld a frame together, it doesnt matter, if the tubes at angle x or x+1°. Same thing goes for Wheel size. 29er wheels are not more expensive than 27.5. There are also people who prefer bike that dont have the dimensions of a truck. More chioce is good.
2. Weight
Both frames are at about 500-800 gramms heavier than the competition, but both have very high reliability and when you hit the frame on something, you dont get a dent the size of a baseball. The Propain also has a full lvl. 5 DH certification, while most of the bikes in the category have only a lvl. 3-4
3. Ride quality
"I havent ridden it, but I bet it rides better than the Propain." Just some good old speculaton to really tie this argument together. Stop speculating and give me some actual points. Geometry on both is nothing outrageous, so that falls 100% under personal preference. What remains would be stiffness, but nobody has any numbers on that, and suspension kinematics.
Do you have any points to make about the suspension kineamtics?
4. Boutique
Its certainly nice, to get something, that not everybody has, but this is not a rational argument.
5. "Rock bottom pricing"
If rock bottom pricing was my objective, Id get a Calibre Bossnut or something. Both the Airdrop and the Propain frames ride very well (Ive tried the airdrop and multiple propains) and are beloved by many riders, so what do you have to say against that?
Convice me with facts and numbers.
To get something that not everybody has is 100% rational. It governs most of the choices that most people make throughout the day. It is the foundation of society, free trade, the economy, and socialized creatures such as ourselves. The point of a bike is to have fun, and that requires specialized equipment. If it was just to be out in the woods enjoying nature with no regard to having a cool thing to do it with we would all be hikers and trail runners. Having a cool bike is important to some people, and thats rational, moral, and.... just cool.
These Kavenz bikes are made in Germany. I'm looking to have a small run of custom frames made in China, and yes, its much cheaper there. But Even for just 20-30 frames, my brother who is an import/export expert says I need to fly out there to inspect and do QA on site before they are boxed up and shipped. It is a nightmare to ensure your entire production batch has the same quality control as your samples. When the entire process is done in a single locality, you typically get better quality control, but this comes at a higher expense.
Finally, we keep saying "higher expense", but these frames are still pretty cheap. They are below average for a high performance bike frame. The reviewer here (and others) say this bike rides exceptionally. That doesn't mean the Propain doesn't ride well, but this will ride noticeably different, and most would probably say better.
I don't think the bike industry is mature yet- only in the last 3 years have we finally settled on what "good" geometry is for a 5" trail bike. I think (hope) that in the next 10 years the manufacturing side of the bike industry can mature and catch up with how things are done in the automotive/aerospace industries.
If you feel differently I'd love to know why!
As a bonus I get to use the mostly silent Shimano rear hub, which is excellent.
I feared that the Sram clutch might be problematic because it feels weak in the workstand, but while actually riding I've not dropped the chain as a result of it*, perhaps it's just enough and maybe that helps keep the shifting light. (* I'm using a Shi12 chainring with the Shimano chain).
@neologisticzand the Shimano derailleur doesn't seem to work as well over the 42T-50T jump on Sram cassettes (I've not tried the 52T cassette, I assume that would be worse).
The only thing I strongly prefer about Shimano is the gear steps on the cassette. The second largest gear is much more useful at 45 than 42.
It is interesting that Kazimer notes that the chain stay at sag is 436 mm which is basically the magic number (435 mm) for a L-XL hard tail 29'er.
At 6'2"/ 188 cm and upwards of 85 kg/ 190 lbs the relative rear wards placement of the COM that is forced upon the rider by a short chain stay/ rear centre means that every first effort or percentage of energy or concentration (even if sub conscious) is focused on "getting forward" which detracts from other aspects of riding and skill execution.
For the properly tall/ larger rider a centred stance on the bike (helped by a longer effective rear-centre and steeper effective STA) is a total game changer.
I run a 2020 Sight and a 2020 Optic and the Sight design team nailed it perfectly for an XL rider and the Optic design team only get 9/10 because they failed to commit to the same effective STA which makes an obvious difference when you get the opportunity to ride them back to back.
Just my two cents worth based on 25 years of riding bikes with too short chain stays followed by five years of riding bikes that finally fit.
I'm 6' on a XL 2020 Optic and wouldn't want to be any farther forward because my knees are not plump at bottom of pedal stroke (from steep STA), but maybe a shorter reach would be a better solution.
The longer chainstay does require a tiny bit more steering input (you've got to really master maintaining center of mass and "tipping" the bike to create the steering angle underneath you, which is how you should ride anyway), but this creates zero issues as, like you, I am 6'2" ~195lbs.
" I also didn't have an adaptor to mount an I-Spec EV shifter to a Code brake ".
In my research there is none. Wolftooth does not make one. Problem Solvers is threatening but who knows when.
Please tell me I am wrong and one exists. Why someone has not come up with one I have no idea. SRAM has better brakes and many prefer Shimano shifting.
while expensive, this adaptor does have the positive side effect of dramtically improving the performance of the Code brakes!
Ride hard! PS not sure if the Saints have the new EV spec mount.........
Except that a single chainstay length will handle differently with each reach length...
And how would you measure that the shorter person on the smaller bike is getting the same handling as a taller person on a larger bike?
It's probably not a massive difference, but I do not doubt that skilled riders will notice a difference. (For example, my bike has interchangeable dropouts that increase the chainstay length by 10mm; not much, but the bike does handle juuust a little better on most terrain, in the longer setting. I'm 6f1in, on an XL. A smaller rider on a smaller size probably would prefer the shorter setting.
Exactly, everything is relative. Thing is, chainstay (rear-center) length relative to front-centerlength is one of those factors, and it's completely ignored when all sizes have that same chainstay length. However it is a big factor to how a bike turns in and carries through a turn. As @Lankycrank said, if the chainstays stay one length, the shorter riders (on Smalls) are biased more towards the center and tall riders (on X-Larges) are biased to the rear, thus two bikes of the same model with have pretty different turning handling depending on size.
what I mean is that if you want to 100% preserve the leverage curve/kinemetics/axle path/shock performance of the rear suspension, you can't just lengthen the CS. you would have to futz with all the things I mentioned to get the bike to behave in the same way as the bike with the shorter CS. Am I picking nits? yes, but so was the Manufacturer in this article. I would wager money that Norco is largely using a change in shock tune to compensate for the change in Kinemetics on the Shore when they upsize the CS.
as a 6'2" dude, I agree with you about short CS climbing.
Moving all pivots together is no engineering feat. Manufacturing will cost the same for carbon, but might increase cost for alloy. It's a basic level of engineering that should have always been done, but we don't demand much out of the bike industry.
Probably pulling it off with an idler pulley makes it even harder, but I would rather have appropriately sized chainstays than an idler pulley (shrugging emoji)
I really like this frame, btw
that is why you don't see it. period. end of story.
Is there any proven science behind the rear ward axle path thing I.e some lab tests? What happens when the wheel rebounds directly at the next bump? I have an open mind to it but just want to see some evidence...
You've now ridden both the GT and Norco high pivot bikes, how is does the Kavenz compare? it has shorter chainstays and a lot of anti squat. Is this a better bike to pedal if you only have one bike for chunky rooty and rocky but flattish terrain and more bikepark and enduro trails
The turn described above, is where short CS's don't work for me.
That said, as I read more HP reviews, every one of them acknowledges the additional drag from the idler pulley and as such, for me and my pedal heavy riding, HP bikes are probably just not the way to go.
Giacomo was great and direct in my couple of brief emails and I do run the 77Designz bash guard and find it to be the best available.
I'm fairly sure such a thing doesn't actually exist. If it does, I will be very pleased.
I think that is a compromise with the suspensions that have rearward path, but in a sense that "damping" of the impact is the reason we've used coil shocks and coil forks, so maybe there's no need for a coil on high pivot bikes?
I'm riding an YT Decoy. Depending on my ride I switch between coil (freeride, park) and air (trail). Both front and rear. The front behaviour differs way more between Zocchi Z1 and Trust Shout at the front, than Manitou Revox and Vivid Air in the rear (the Vivid is quity "coily"!). The pop of the Z1 ist quite similar to the Lyrik I had before (it is more sensitive of course). You simply push and pull to lift your wheel. With the Shout you don't need to push, it is useless. Just pull harder.
In general, quite impressive result for Kavenz' first bike.
Seriously , i think they are ugly
thanks
You should be quoting the CS number as sagged. They quote it in their geo chart. 436mm sagged. Not such a big difference.
adapter for 216 shock would be great to see
plenty bikes with that shock and 170/180 been use around and would be easily transferable into that frame - even with 27,5 wheels on both ends
Its one thing thta one person can never trul test though...