Rapha Releases New Trail Gore-Tex Pants

 For real. I use some Revolution Race hiking pants in bad weather. They were 80 bucks, have actually a good fit for pedaling and keep me dry on a three hour wet ride without feeling like a sauna.

 @hardtailpunter: thanks for the tip

 @hardtailpunter: I get SO MANY targeted ads from them on my insta that I stopped paying any attention to them. Glad to hear that they are actually somewhat legit.

 Perhaps I'd buy them gently used for $125? Definitely wouldn't dream of spending so much on riding pants... ever.

 @hardtailpunter: Thanks I will have a look a them, I might buy one if I find a good deal this holiday season

 I have a pair of pants I bought on Amazon for $35. They have worked great the past couple of years.

 Paid $25 for my Wrangler ATG's and they're amazing. Not waterproof, probably not bombproof, but incredibly comfortable, great looking, and I can wear them both to work and the trail.

 Coming from someone in Switzerland too...

 Whose riding in the conditions pictured above?

 325.00, 350.00, 500.00 please let this madness stop. We all know you made them for 25.00. These companies are not understanding the current and future economy. Its almost like manufacturing is some dark secret.

 @Snowsed341: If you think you can manfufacture a gorertex pant for $25, you are sorely mistaken. That wouldn't even cover the cost of materials, nevermind sewing costs, freight, packaging and retail markups. Expensive, yes. Out of reach for most, yes. Overpriced, not even a little bit.

 @mkul7r4: Sound like the Wal-Mart pair my buddy told me to get as well. Love them!

 I don't wear pants so I buy these and have them turned into short. I have the extra leg pieces listed on the buy sell for 75$ but no takers so far.

 @connorgsmith3: North Western Europe

 @connorgsmith3: pretty much everyone in the UK.

£35 Decathlon hiking trousers are awesome by the way

 @connorgsmith3: Me. Pacific Northwet rider here.

 @connorgsmith3: Right? I reckon you'd be drawn and quartered for riding the trails in my region in those conditions.

I'm always curious why riding in wet conditions seems more acceptable in other regions, whereas in the north east US trail networks close promptly when things get even a bit muddy.

 @jaytdubs: It comes down to soil types with clay soils becoming an awful mess when tires hit them in the wet. We have almost no clay here in WA and the trails show no signs of wear after being ridden in the wet. Freeze/thaw is another matter though.

 @NWBasser: where is this possible without destroying the trail in these conditions in the PNW? Maybe logging roads I guess.

 @merlin33: The glacial till and outwash of western Washington. If our soils couldn't take it, then we would just have very deep ruts for trails. Oregon seems to have more clay soils.

 @jaytdubs: if we cant ride in the wet when are we going to ride? its always wet!

 @NWBasser: roger that. Thanks.

 Same

 @jaytdubs: We'd never get to ride if that happened here...

 They need to pay their debt road.cc/content/news/rapha-announces-loss-ps106-million-304903

 @hardtailpunter: Many thanks will check them out

 @NWBasser: that's great insight. I knew I was missing something.

 @rifrafi @Allen82 you blokes do it differently over there and hats off to you for it.

 @Matturalistic: yeah, in my case they bombarded me for so long that I eventually caved in, but the quality is holding up

 @NWBasser: the motos who climb natural trails built by mtb’ers rut them out quick. Lazy trail poachers, build your own climb trails to rut out. Otherwise yes, trails hold up great in the wet

 @jaytdubs: many of us over here ride natural trails, no trail networks.

 @pink505: This made my weekend!

 @singlespeedman: What is a "natural trail" are you riding trails made by animals? Or maybe trails made from water run off?

 @onawalk: not sure if your question is meant to be serious.
again, it is possible to avoid trail centers with their restrictions and instead simply ride on hiking trails, hunters' paths or paths created by wildlife.
some trails are man made, some not. but certainly not purpose built for mountain biking. that's my point.
much more fun, hardly any other bikers, peaceful and - no restrictions

 @singlespeedman: Sorta serious question

Likely more just different lingo.
So youre saying you and many people are riding trails that are made by animals through the forest? While its possible, I dont think I know anyone who rides like that. Maybe old hiking trails, but those still exist in areas that theyre built for

and wouldnt (assuming similar soil conditions) that still lead to accelerated trail erosion?

 @connorgsmith3: everyone in the UK

 @UnitedInShred22: Yeah, motos are another matter entirely.

 That's a great video and he's right.

However in practice I never had any issues with goretex jackets, shoes, gloves hats even after heavy and prolonged use in various sporting and non-sporting activities.

Everything else (including the dainese fabric he mentions) have let me down at some point.

Unfortunately goretex's marketing has worked and its the brand I trust.

I would be keen if there is an alternate. I found a fabric called eVent that looked legit but hardly anything uses it (damn you goretex!)

 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: eVent used to be a lot more common maybe 10 years ago, Rab used to use it in most of their mountaineering kit. I had a jacket by them and had no faults with the eVent, generally it was thought to be slightly more breathable that GoreTex ProShell bu slightly less durable

 was about to post this! such a good insight!

 I've been avoiding Gore tex for years. It just never worked that well, it was like the worst of both worlds, once it got dirty, it was no longer water proof, and the breathability never really worked. Every outdoor retailer has their version of it these days, usually with some version of DWR surface, I prefer big vents in strategic places, and to spend my extra money on bike parts (that surely live up to their hype ;-)

 It's an excellent video, and is nothing new to anyone who does any climbing/mountaineering, we've known about Gore's business practices for a decade now. I avoid Gore products unless they are literally the best/only option.

 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: "goretex jackets, shoes, gloves hats"

Gore didn't make any of them. The people you should trust are the manufacturer's of those items. Goretex is just a brand of generic membrane, nothing more.

eVent has been around for years, but it's a victim of Gore's business practices.

 This is actually a great explainer video. They’re spot on with the technical limitations of the claims of Gore Tex, or any waterproof/breathable material.

The one benefit you get from buying a Gore-licensed garment is that Gore has stringent manufacturing qualifications that garments must pass in order to wear the Gore name. While it won’t be any more breathable or waterproof than an eVent or Polartec shell, the quality is almost always higher in the finished product.

Worth the price? Maybe, maybe not but you can just go buy cheaper pants if you want.

 @redrook: many different brands made them ....yes.

I didnt realise the membrane goretex uses is "generic". Who else makes it the same? I know it's not protected any more but I thought between one thing and another gore had shut down anyone else bothering to try.

 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: Please watch the F9 video linked to above, literally all the answers are in it. It's worth a watch.

To answer that one question, the original goretex product was quickly surpassed and the patent ran out in the 90s. Gore now make a generic membrane the same as everyone else's and they brand it Gore-Tex, and charge a huge premium simply for the use of their name. Most brands have their own in-house membrane.

 @redrook: thats how I started on this thread...I watched the (excellent) fortnine video.

I am not convinced they all make them the same....else they would all have equivalent performance....which the video shows that they don't and is supported by the different breathability and waterproofing ratings.

Maybe I misunderstand the term but if something is "generic" to me it's bought-in and branded. If gore are making it or licensing it out (with or without branding) then it's proprietary.

(I am not trying to be difficult I just want to understand what you meant- or indeed find the non-goretex goretex....like i said....having tried a lot of stuff over the years i havent found anything that compares)

 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: E-vent is amazingl Polartec Neoshell is even better than event and gore. But gore wins with their marketing always.

 @uncle-scott: ah yeah neoshell was the other one i was inferested in. Fox make some stuff with it currently. Not tried it

 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: No worries, all good. By generic I mean that everyone makes essentially the same product and Goretex is nothing more than a copy of other essentially identical products, as the video explains. So yes, one example of that could be buying it in and branding it. Another could be making something very similar (because there is no patent preventing it). The performance will vary simply because they are all being made by different companies, no two are actually identical, but the margins of difference are narrow.

You haven't tried goretex in isolation, you have tried it as the membrane in specific (usually high-end) products. Those are the ones which frequently feature goretex and are made with high-end face fabrics and build quality. To make a comparison you would have to try an identical product with the goretex supplemented for another membrane. In my experience, I have several goretex jackets in various lines (from Paclite to Pro), and have both sold and worked in products with goretex in genuinely extreme conditions. I've had mixed results depending on the particular piece.

Now, Neoshell is actually interesting, because it is NOT the same. It is an entirely different design because it is MUCH more air-permeable. It is not truly windproof like goretex etc, it is highly wind-resistant and therefore much more breathable. By comparison, goretex etc is about as breathable as a plastic bag. As a consequence it is slightly less waterproof too - however, you sweat less in it so are not getting wet from the inside of the jacket. There was an infamous Neoshell advert in the trade (unsure if it made it to public viewing) of a climber sweating in a jacket with a strong implication that it was goretex. It directly targeted goretex's breathability.

I have a Rab Neoshell jacket and Rab Neoshell trousers and both are brilliant, and much better suited for active use. If you can get some I would highly recommend it.

@uncle-scott I completely agree, Neoshell is really game-changing, but sadly has been muscled out by Gore.

 Thing is, that video singles out Gore-Tex while glossing over the fact that it performs better than most of its competitors. Maybe the point is more to call out their anti-competitive business practices, which, okay, that’s fair game. Gore’s ethics as a company are shady. But to say waterproof membranes are a scam and don’t work is reductive to the point of dishonesty.

The waterproof/breathable membrane—be it Gore-Tex, eVent, whatever—is a pretty clutch piece of gear in a lot of activities and environments. In high output activities, Gore-Tex might not be your best option. A soft shell with a DWR is going to do better in high-output and low precip scenarios. Add more precip to the equation though and you’re going to soak thru in no time in that soft shell. Gore-Tex (or alternative membrane) with venting options is the way to go. In snowy alpine environments for things like skiing /snowboarding/ice climbing, Gore-Tex is indispensable. I’ve got a Gore-Tex shell for rainy mtb rides; for the climbs, I unzip the front zipper and get all the temperature/ internal moisture control I need, and then am psyched to have the protection on the way back down.

The whole “Gore-Tex doesn’t work” angle of that video is just bullshit. It’s a tool in the tool box. Use it wrong and it sucks. But it’s also got plenty of uses where it excels.

 Thanks for that video, for over 45 years I bought into the goretex hype and was disappointed with the jackets, gloves and shoes. I thought it was something I was doing wrong. Truth is everything is crap and goretex is the most expensive crap.

 @redrook: thank you for the information. Well that "essentially" qualifier is the difference I am talking about I guess. Whilst I might have got sweaty in goretex....I never got wet from the outside. I suppose most of it is high-end but it's also been faultless in an un-known brand hat and a couple of adidas trainers where eveb as the soles wore out through the waterproofing of the goretex always been intact.

I would be keen to try those other materials but they only seem to come on expensive stuff you can't find deals on.

I know part of what you are paying for with goretex is the branding license

 @BrambleLee: "But to say waterproof membranes are a scam and don’t work is reductive to the point of dishonesty."

“Gore-Tex doesn’t work”

Nobody has said that. And that video didn't say that. The scam is the "waterproof and breathable" part. It's waterproof OR breathable. And it's not really even breathable.

 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: You're not going to get wet in any of these from the outside.

"unknown brands" are not going to be using goretex. You might not know the brand, but if it's genuine goretex then they had the (substantial) budget to pay for the licence.

A large percentage of what you're paying is the goretex licencing. When I worked in sales in the industry it was typically $100 for shoes and $200 for a jacket.

 @BrambleLee: "glossing over the fact that it performs better than most of its competitors."

Lol it doesn't though. It doesn't even perform better in the small number of products F9 tested, and that was limited to motorcycle brands.

Your desperate need to defend what you've bought is pretty clear. If you're happy that's fine, you've bought your jacket for your little mtb rides where you feel you need "protection" on the way down - despite the fact that, if it's raining, you've let all the rain into your jacket by unzipping the front. If it's just splashes you're worried about when descending then you don't need a full waterproof shell. Ah shit sorry, I've just pointed out your absolute bullshit.

As someone who ice/winter climbs in Scotland, Norway and the Alps (and a little in the US) and has done for 15 years I can assure you that none of us are using goretex on a regular basis, everyone uses softshells as much as we can whenever doing anything remotely active. The shells are for the slow trudges if conditions are truly bad. So it seems like you are making things up to justify your opinion.

You should read Andy Kirkpatrick on the waterproof breathable nonsense, and if you're going to start disagreeing with him on climbing gear then I'm afraid you've lost all credibility.

www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/the_truth_about_breathable_waterproofs

 @rbeach: I always find it weird that people so vehemently defend products or companies as if any critique is aimed at them personally.

Anyone in the outdoor industry knows goretex is nothing special. Very few people push any product to its limits (unless you're walking towards a fire hose) so there's no way they can actually experience those marginal performance differences they're so keen to point out.

@BrambleLee you single out goretex arbitrality in your first sentence, because you then go on to talk about waterproof membranes in general, thus missing the point completely. Nobody is saying those membranes have no use. The ENTIRE point is that goretex offers nothing more but charges a lot more, and muscles out any competition through underhanded business practices.

If you're about to discuss anything other than those two points, you're off on your own tangent. And if you disagree with those points, I would direct you to that video. Not only does it explain everything but it gives you a list of references.

Go and read all those references and then come back here.

 @redrook: I get that a branded 30k waterproof membrane is exactly as waterproof as the next 30k waterproof membrane but a 10k one is dramatically not as waterproof, right? (Through the membrane I mean).

Regardless of whether 30k is overkill it IS more waterproof, right?

It's just there aren't that many membranes rated in that zone other than goretex.

(Obvs you can tell I am more concerned about waterproofing than breathability)

 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: Sure (if by waterproof you mean it can stand the highest level of water pressure, which is what those numbers denote) but there is no debate above as to whether these membranes are waterproof. They are indeed. The point is that Gore-tex isn't functionally unique and isn't waterproof AND breathable as it claims to be (it is not, it physically cannot be by how it functions).

If all you are interested in is the waterproof rating then you need not think any further - though Gore-tex is not the highest watreproof-rated licensable membrane, that would be eVent.

eVent is 30K, Mont Hydronaught (Mont's in-house membrane) is 30K, Pertex Shield is 20K, and there are plenty more unbranded in-house membranes in ski clothing etc. at 20K.

As an aside, understand what the numbers mean. 30K means the membrane (claims it) can withstand 30,000mm (i.e. 30 metres) of water pressure before it will leak. 30K is only more waterproof than something else if you are in ≤30K conditions, but more water pressure than whatever you're comparing it to can withstand.

The World Meterological Association defines heavy rain as 50mm or more in 24 hours. So you can quite comfortably have a 5K rated membrane on for a day in those conditions and remain dry. This is where garment build quality becomes the key factor, not the claimed rating of the membrane, which was my earlier point. You're much more likely to experience leaks either through shitty manufacturing of cheaper membranes which despite their ratings could leak, shitty seam sealing, shitty zip design, or through a neck/cuff hole. A lot of pieces with lower rating membranes are also cheaper and have cheaper design/manufacturing.

 @rbeach: Dude, you’re being an ass. Re-read what I wrote, re-read what you wrote, and ask yourself what I said that could have possibly warranted such a rude, snarky personal response.

I’ll take your word on the ice climbing. I don’t ice climb, never said I do. Perhaps my perception is incorrect there and I’ll gladly defer to your claimed expertise. For cold and rainy mtb rides, I want something with a wp/b membrane. For skiing, it’s a non-negotiable.

The graph in that video—I didn’t think that was F9’s own work, but don’t care enough to re-watch—showed Gore with higher breathability scores than most of its competitors. Dude said so himself in the video. That’s what I was referring to with the “performs better than most of its competitors” bit.

I can ride in the pouring rain with my front zipper open for venting and not get meaningfully wet because the rain is falling on my back. Do I need to draw you a diagram demonstrating how I’m leaned forward on my bike and rain falls from above?

What’s there even to argue about here? I think Gore and eVent work great for some uses. You apparently don’t? Cool cool. I’m not going to tear into you over that. None of this stuff matters or reflects on us as people.

But homie, do you act like this IRL? Because that means you’re a flaming f*cking a*shole.

 @BrambleLee: for snowsports I don’t find goretex to be much of an advantage. Snow doesn’t soak in like rain so even dwr’d nylon will be fine at -10C. Add some zippered vents and I’m happy all day.

 @redrook: next time we go for a rainy ride you can take the 5k stuff yeah?

 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: I'll take a softshell, it's more than enough to keep normal rain out, and doesn't turn into a sweatbox.

 @BrambleLee: Aww sorry babe, did I hurt your feelings. If I came across someone who chatted as much shit as you do irl I'd absolutely say the same.

And why do you want huge waterproofing for skiing, do you ski in the rain? When I ski it's about keeping the right temperature.

I didn't say they don't work for some uses, I said they don't work for the uses you stated.

Maybe need reading comprehension lessons as well as someone to put some cream on your butthurt

 @BryceBorlick: Exactly.

 @redrook: my last comment didn't add the smiley but Deal. You get wet from the outside, I'll get wet from the inside in goretex.

We'll both not mention it to prove we're both right ha ha.

 @rbeach: So you’re aggressive, stupid, and convinced you know better than anyone else. Good luck with that, babe.

 @redrook: and @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: the most important takeaway, from the comments here is made by @whiteryanc and often gets overlooked.
Like developing software for Apple back in the day, they have more stringent QC and manufacturing practises that are expected.
So the product you buy is more durable, fits better, and is generally of higher quality, which does wonders for the brand.

Fortnines videos are great, but like everything else, doesnt always paint the whole picture

 Wrangler ATG trail joggers.

 @mkul7r4: lol, I have 3 of these. They were $25 at target when I bought them

 @mkul7r4: great riding pants in the dry, they offer absolutely no waterproofing

 Gore Tex is not a material/fabric as you repeatedly infer. It is a PTFE sheet that you join to one side of a fabric material. Without that fabric (Cordura or whatever) and on its own, GoreTex has the strength of a plastic bag.

 Top tip that has saved me a fortune on buying waterproof trousers every season due to a worn out arse. Buy some cheap waterproof trousers, the nasty packable types for about £/$15 off of Amazon, cut the legs of so you're left with a pair of waterproof boxer shorts, put them over your expensive branded waterproof riding trousers Superman style, and that should keep the mud out of the fabric which causes the wear. I have a pair of MT500s on their third season thanks to this, and I live in the UK where they're used for 8 months of the year.

 @EducatedHillbilly: Ha ha, i bet that looks really cool too! (sounds like a genuinely good tip - I'm constantly wearing out trouser gussets in wet weather)

 @EducatedHillbilly: Sounds like a good way to get an extra good wedgie.

 @motdrawde: It looks ridiculous, so goofy, especially as I tuck my jacket into the outer shorts, which has the added bonus of preventing the jacket riding up and mud going down my arse crack. But it's worth it knowing that the rear panel of of my trousers aren't being eaten by mud. Try it

 Agreed. The ass wears out. Mtb pants should copy the cordura ass panel from mx pants. We’ll get there someday.

 I've bought the lightweight versions of their shorts and pants on sale at REI. The pants, in particular, are really good.

 yeah....I have some 4 year old Kitsbow shorts that are still hanging in there. tough as hell, stretchy enough and absolutely money on fit. like you basically arent wearing anyhting. zero sagging in the crotch to get caught on your saddle, no seems to irritate, like second skin. oh, and plenty of crashes in them and not even a scuff. unreal. I think they a were like $235 retail or something, I got them on EP but still way worth full price.

high end gear has it's benefits

 I have the pants and they are f*cking amazing. I get excited for cool enough weather that I can wear them, I’ll even make excuses to wear them when it’s not quite cool enough just because they are so comfortable and well thought out.

 I wore their trail lightweight pants for 11 straight days on the AZTR 800 and fully agree, they’re exceptionally nice.

 Yes, very much worth watching.

 Clearly some employees at Gore downvoted this.

 Two things happen that lead your face fabric to start “wetting out” which causes the membrane to not work optimally:
1) dirt accumulates on the face fabric, and
2) the DWR treatment wears off over time.

Wash your waterproof breathable gear regularly to address the first issue—in the washing machine on a warm cycle followed by a twirl in the dryer on medium heat.

And to address the second issue, refresh your DWR every once in a while. Buy some wash-in DWR treatment—NikWax and Grainger’s both make products like that, I’m sure there are others as well.

It’s a common misconception that Gore-Tex “stops working” or doesn’t work as well over time. In reality, people just don’t know how to take care of their gear.

 @BrambleLee: As a Gore employee, this is spot on!

 @tg222: as generic advise maybe, but not really in the case of riding pants. These items go through the combination of heavy dirt and strong shearing forces, which makes short work of the membrane. It’s just a bad technology for this application.

 @BrambleLee: I tried that NikWak stuff, it doesnt work as it effects the whole idea and way Gore-Tex fabric is meant to work and stops the product from "breathing" It just waterproofs the clothing for a short amount of time and you get wet inside the fabric from sweat.

 Bonkers isn't it - especially in the current global financial crisis.

 If you're tall you should know by now "m,l,xl" sized clothes won't fit. If I'm paying more than $15 I expect actual inseam and waist measurements.

 7mesh provides the inseam for every size, specific to each product, on the product page. Look for the Inseams tab right under Features. e.g. Thunder Pant Men's XXL is 37.5" / 95.3 cm

 Can confirm, the Rapha pants are not made for tall people. Norrona Fjora or Endura MT500 pants are good options for long legs.

 @7mesh: but that doesn't remedy the waist measurement too. Its XXL with a 37.5 inseam, thats helpful but I want pants that fit me not have a window of 34-38 on the waist.

I do understand im asking alot, but when there are companies asking for 3-500 dollars I feel like they are asking alot of me. If I'm paying over 300 dollars for pants they should fit tailored, no velcro adjustments, no ratchet straps. I get that these are insane standards to expect from tiny companies like Rapha and POC but thats what it will take to gain me as a customer.

 @RonSauce: In general, waist size is a poor indicator for pant fit, even though we're all used to it from jeans etc. Using hip (around the butt) correlates way better. Thunder specifically is unusual, it has a unique waist that opens super wide and closes in, to stay supple while giving it more range. It also has trimmable hems to fit taller riders and tune to a custom fit, so the listed inseam is only the max. The velcro isn't there for fit, it's so you can put the pants on or take them off while still wearing your shoes. So far, that's the best we can do! Totally fair and no problem if they won't meet your needs, we'll keep working and hope to win you over in the future

 HAHAHAHAHA

 I want to love them, but I’ve had a lot of quality issues with their pants. Specifically the fabric pilling after only one or two uses and a single wash. With the original AT pants, shorts, and AT+

 @pisgahgnar: Yea, I had some pilling on the original AT pants and shorts, but it doesn’t bother me since they are for riding. I didn’t see that issue with the AT+ pants I have.

 I have a pair of AT+ pants and they are excellent for what they are. Very inexpensive but fit well and get the job done.

 @AndrewFleming: I've had the same experience. I like the AT+ better for sure. HandUp is usually good for some type of holiday/black friday sale, that makes these pretty inexpensive pants even cheaper.

 Wrangler hiking pants are under $20 and great for bumbling

 @RonSauce: i have those exact ones you are talking about! In fact I am wearing them right now! I can't bumble till later though.

 Their Blackline trail pants are awesome value at full price, I just bought a couple of backup pairs from the sale ($64cad a set!) to keep in the closet just in case they do go out of business entirely. Still dispatched fast, still using weird off-brand couriers. Apparently prices listed on chainreaction now include Canadian taxes and duties so interested to see if that is true.

 Yeah, exactly. I just rinse these and then wash in nikwax rewaterproofing and they are mint

 It's a helluva lot more easy to clean mud off my legs than any fabric I've ever worn. I don't get the pants hype.

 @rpdale: I am super sensitive to hemlock, which happens to grow like crazy by me. Wearing pants makes that a non issue, I dont wear shorts unless its crazy hot or I know I'm riding wide trails. Most outdoors sports wear pants with good reason, if there is any "hype" its from the shorts crowd.

 @RonSauce: Which outdoor sports wear pants? I’m struggling to think of any besides those done in cold temperatures.

 @AndrewFleming: outdoors as in wilderness, not just athletics outside.

Hiking, hunting, fishing, climbing to name a few.

 @RonSauce: Ok, each to their own, but I prefer shorts for those activities unless it’s cold out.

 Its at the point where some riding trousers, a couple of tops and a jacket would be the same price as an entry level airbag motorcycle suit....

 DWR and gore tex are two different things. Gore Tex is a waterproof membrane in between the layers of your jacket. This is what stops the water from getting in. DWR is the outside coating which repels and beads the water in the outside, keeping it from soaking in and wetting out the fabric. Your gore tex pro jacket also uses DWR on the outside. The two work in conjunction because if even the best gore Tex jacket wets out on the outside the breathability would be ruined.

 Rapha.

 What profits?