First Look: SRAM Guide Trail Brakes – Power, Precision and Control
 |
 SRAM's new Guide brake was named to pay homage to the trail guides who tirelessly ushered the design team around the back country and in doing so, became the program's key test riders as well. |
SRAM has developed an all-new braking system that handily addresses the minor deficiencies of its Avid XO and XX1-level trail brakes. The brake platform is called “Guide” and it will be a SRAM-branded product that is intended specifically to serve elite-level all-mountain and trail riders. The new brake is the end product of an intensive, three-year development program that began with a series of test sessions where SRAM’s engineers and selected riders evaluated top performing models from major component makers. Based upon information gathered from the trail sessions, SRAM then outlined the performance goals it wanted to hit with its new braking platform: quicker action, more precise engagement control, and independent adjustments for lever-reach, pad contact and engagement – and then developed three different prototypes to explore the best mechanical option to achieve those goals. The result was a distinctly different lever design, a new rotor configuration, and a familiar, four-piston caliper. We were invited to ride-test the SRAM’s Guide Trail Brake in Moab, Utah, on some of the same terrain where those first product evaluations took place – and it seems that the Guide team has met or exceeded their expectations.
 | Details: • Purpose: AM/Trail • Contact point adjust • Tool-free reach adjust • MatchMaker X compatible • Lever pivots on ball bearings • 4-piston Guide caliper • New Centerline rotor • Colors: polished silver anodize or black anodize • Weight: 375 grams (front system, 160mm rotor) • MSRP: $199 / €177 per side |
Inside SRAM's Guide RSC Trail Brake
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| SRAM's Guide brakes use a shorter two-finger lever and a piggyback-type reservoir. Lever reach, engagement and pad contact are independently adjustable. |
Guide Lever
From the outside, the Guide brake lever’s in-line master cylinder and reservoir looks much different than its predecessors, with a larger reservoir, a shorter, forged-aluminum lever blade and a forward-pointing reach-adjustment dial. From tip to tip, the Guide lever is the same overall length as the present trail brakes, but with additional clearance made for GripShift levers at the outboard end and a larger volume for fluid in a piggyback reservoir. The lever-reach dial has been moved from below the lever blade, where it interfered with twist-shifters and some lock-on grips, and placed facing inward up top. SRAM uncoupled the Guide’s lever-reach and free-stroke (engagement point) adjustments so Guide owners can quickly fine tune their brakes. Like all SRAM brakes, Guide levers are Matchmaker compatible and ambidextrous, so users can switch sides without bleeding hoses. SRAM did not give us the individual weight of the lever assembly, but the total system weight for a charged brake: lever, caliper, and 160mm rotor is 375 grams, with a $199 USD MSRP. Colors are polished or gloss black
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| This cut-away lever shows the swing link with its hardened-steel roller near the center of the image, the lever-driven cam is contacting the roller and is just peeping out of the cut-away from the right of the photo. |
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New Master Cylinder
In the search for an extremely precise and repeatable engagement feel, SRAM abandoned the simpler TaperBore master cylinder of its Avid Elixir brakes in favor of the sliding cup-seal and port system that most hydraulic types employ. Because the cup-type piston must travel a measured distance before it closes off the bleed port and begins to actuate the caliper, a “dead band” is created that causes unwanted play in the brake lever’s travel. SRAM’s designers solved this with a cam-driven swing link which moves the master cylinder piston quickly past the reservoir’s bleed port so the brakes will begin to actuate at the moment the lever is squeezed. The swing link is designed to quickly drive the brake pads to the rotor, after which, the lever-mounted cam is profiled to ensure that when the rider squeezes the lever, the clamping force at the caliper becomes linear and easy to modulate.
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| Another view of the Guide lever shows the molded butyl rubber membrane above the master cylinder and piston. Notice that the bleed ports above the piston assembly are protected from air bubbles by a raised tower when the lever is inverted. |
Inside the Reservoir
SRAM officials stated that there are always one or two bubbles left inside a well bled braking system that normally do not affect braking performance because they migrate into the brake lever’s reservoir. Often, especially when the bicycle is inverted, a bubble can find its way through the open port inside the reservoir and migrate into the brake hose, causing the lever to feel spongy. Multiple applications of the brake lever will force small air bubbles back into the reservoir – most of the time - but SRAM wanted to eliminate the problem altogether.
More fluid volume was added to the reservoir to ensure that there would be ample reserves to compensate for 100-percent pad wear, and SRAM engineers also designed a short tower around the bleed ports in the master cylinder reservoir to guide any trapped air away from their openings, should the bike be flipped up-side down. Clever enough, but to ensure less bubble formation and more consistent braking feel, the brains there designed a more flexible butyl separator-membrane in the reservoir cap. The pull of the stiffer plastic membrane, say the scientists at SRAM, can draw molecules of air through the membrane over time and also affect how crisply the lever returns.
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| SRAM's new rotor has double the number of spokes and a new profile - all intended to keep the braking track straight when it is red hot. The "Centerline" name is derived from the elongated mud-clearning slots in the center of the braking track. |
New Rotor
Guide Brakes also feature a new rotor design called “Centerline” which refers to a series of elongated vents in the center of the braking track, as well as a new 12-spoke configuration (up from six spokes) that is intended to allow for more precise expansion and contraction of the disc as it is heated. The revisions are reported to control warping and lateral distortion of the rotors and to assist cooling. Centerline rotors will be available in 140, 160, 180 and 200-millimeter diameters and the standard, six-bolt hub interface.
Familiar Caliper
Guide calipers are essentially the same four-piston items, paired in 14 and 16-millimeter diameters, that are presently used for Avid’s XXI and X01-level Trail Brakes. Sintered metallic pads as standard equipment, and a new optional organic pad has been developed for those who want a more quiet running system. Like Avid brakes, the new Guide platform is charged with DOT 5.1 fluid – a more advanced formulation of the standard DOT-4 automotive brake fluid. Guide brakes are bled and serviced with the same system that SRAM uses for Avid brakes – and the pads are interchangeable with AVID four-piston trail brakes as well.
Three Models SRAM will offer Guide Brakes in three price points: the top-drawer RSC (Reach adjust, Swing link, Contact-point adjust) with a claimed weight of 375 grams for a complete front brake at $199 a side; the RS, with reach adjust and swing link features at 380 grams and $149; and the $129-per-side Guide R model, which is limited to lever reach adjustments only and said to weigh 375 grams. Compatibility and Delivery Guide brakes are projected to arrive in bike shops around July, 2014. SRAM says that the levers will fit Shimano shifters as well as its own triggers and GripShift options, and as mentioned earlier, the clamps and lever design allow the right and left side levers to be easily reversed. Matchmaker compatibility ensures that SRAM’s shift levers, and RockShox’s dropper-post and fork lockout controls can be mounted directly to the handlebar clamps. Pinkbike’s First Impressions:
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You know these previous brakesets we made you buy as we explained they were the best? We lied, they were shit. Now THIS is the best... You cannot beat the marketing bs.
They're trying to fix problems with previous systems. Nothing is perfect, and everything gets improved over time. Nothing different here. You cannot beat the fanboy BS.
Also think they get a lot of hate as they're the Kona of the bike world. Very popular, normally ridden into the dirt and broken before looked at, then complained about how poor they are without taking the merit of how they were treated into it.
Shimano is a better system in my eyes. Better lever feel, better product to bleed, feels better on the trail, but I honestly think you're a simpleton if your only opinion of avid is "crap."
I do not buy stuff to 'get the warranty'. I would never buy something that gets as many bad reports and reviews as good ones. Especially brakes man. If you are happy to take the 50/50 chance on your breaking devices then go for it. I must be a simpleton then...
You don't have to buy them to "get the warranty." As I implied, they're a very common brake and many bikes come stock with them, on top of that, they're found online for very good deals. There's a huge host of people poorly taking care of them and suffering the results. If you happen to have a bike with Avid stoppers, it's not an issue. Have them properly worked on and they'll run properly. Nobody here is suggesting you go out and spend your hard earned cash on an inferior system, but we are telling people that already own them that they're not "crap" such as some simpletons keep propagating, but rather just need a bit of work out of the box.
Can't handle working on your bike? Cool. Then you're going to take your bike and get someone else to work on it. Can't stand paying for someone to do a hyper simple job on your bike? Cool. Don't buy avid, and if you have avid, stop bitching about an issue that takes 20 minutes to solve.
The other elixirs I had, I used them for a month on the factory bleed ten had them bled twice in a month and a half and then they started leaking.
would anyone buy a car from a manufacturer who was notorious for a poor factory bleed?
This is like saying: I never put gas or oil in my Honda and it finally died. It was a piece of crap. Come on!
Kudos to how well they take care of problems, but come on, you wouldn't need to take care of the problems if you just designed products well and kept a much better eye at QC the first time around rather than releasing something then fixing mistakes. AKA research and testing. Every product has issues, but none nearly as severe or often as sram/avid.
Makes me wonder what the actual automated bleeding and QC/QA process entails. Perhaps a pinkbike factory visit is in order? =p
But yes, if we are to sound off on the bleeding broken record, Avids come with a poor bleed. They also note to cut and bleed their brakes after they come out of the box, which is why they come with a poor bleed, as they advise you to bleed the brake.
Not saying I dont like shimanos too but I have to side with Sherbs on this one. Avids are great breaks. Poor mechanics can ruin the performance of any nice component.
I'd still say Hope makes a great brake, even if I have seen issues. That's my point. EVERYTHING BREAKS. Why Avid has to be perfect to not be crap is beyond me.
Please stop construing asinine things from my posts. My points are simple. Avid makes a good brake with a fairly common and large problem, but the problem is a very easy to fix one. If an easy to fix problem means something is shit, then I've no idea what to say.
The warranty process....you really have to wonder about that. I waste about 15 minutes of every day calling Avid on warranty issues. As I said, yes, they fix the issue...but I have at least 50 Avid warranty issues to every Shimano issue when it comes to brakes. The Shimano issues typically pertain to the non-gruppo brakes....the Avid problems range from Elixers to XX brakes....all of them being they can't hold a bleed or simply just work like crap.
Again, kudos to Avid handling their issues, but again, do it right the first time, have solid quality control, and the warranty department won't be flooded like they are. Funny how a company that did $500 million last year across all their lines have 30 times the amount of warranty issues as a company that did over $1.5 billion in their bicycle line alone. THAT'S what my point was.
Dont jump him too bad Sherb he was just asking a question of me.
I cannot really fathom needing 15 minutes a day to resolved Avid issues. I will again say that the vast majority of issues with Avids are very easy to fix in a shop, or flatout need replacing as they've been crashed and burnt.
You are also assuming your method is best. Avid sells them with an iffy bleed, as again, they instruct stores to cut and bleed them to the bike. It's not really Avid's fault that shops aren't taking the steps that are needed and faulty bikes are going out the store. Is it a pain in the ass for the shops? Sure as hell is it. Is it as much of an issue as what people are making it out to be? Seriously? 20 minutes of work for a multihundred dollar investment is too much? Take up knitting if you honestly feel that.
I'm with the guy above with his line about forks. A WC fork does not come out of box ready to rip. You will need to tune it to your bike and your riding style, and often that involves oil weights, oil CC count, shims, and otherwise. Are we going to fault fork companies for knowing you have to work on their product to get the most of it? You're welcome to start the trend.
Seeing as you didn't complain about the set they gave you, I'll assume they worked for their purpose and couldn't be called "shitty."
Also as every issue is personal, and I can't speak for your workmanship or the shop you brought it to, I don't know why you're asking for me to give you an explanation for something I couldn't know? Perhaps you did a poor job bleeding it? Perhaps the shops were lazy and didn't use the correct method to get the air out of the line? Maybe there was a fitment issue with the hose or a seal issue that neither you nor the shops could find? I couldn't tell you the specifics, nor will I ever be able to. Your brake didn't work. You took it to Avid. They replaced it with one that did work. They didn't bother to berate you with everything they could have to make you feel inept, rather, they took the brake, they tossed it in a van, they looked at it later on to see what the issue was, and then a few months/years later, they produced the brake you're currently looking at, to address those issues.
What else would you have them do? This hobby horse is dead and beaten.
Avid instructs people to bleed them. They have several foolproof methods for you to do at home with a few different price levels of bleed kits available.
I'm also struggling to see these absolute droves of people having issues that you're alluding to. I'm seeing a common brake have a fairly low instance of issues due to negligent owners/dealers. The issues are very different to me. A shop not taking care of the product it sells is a bigger issue in my eyes, and I dislike how they're passing off the issue to a company that is telling them the exact solution that they need. This is a shitty little blame game. It stops here. If your brake doesn't work, fix it. If you cannot fix it, you are likely the problem.
They are very easy to bleed. The fact that you keep implying they're near impossible to bleed really makes me wonder if this was the brake's fault, or you just couldn't provide a decent bleed? You weren't even aware there were video tutorials on the matter, so it does make me curious how much you knew about bleeding before you failed at it. Again, this speaks loads more about the owners than the product. Most examples brought up in this comment chain seem to point to that same conclusion.
I watched their videos. I have bled many other brakes successfully. I am aware of the need to bleed brakes, and do so regularly. 'Fool proof' was my way of suggesting that the Elixir models I and many people I have spoken to had were either really hard to bleed properly, or had some kind of flaw that led to them performing badly and unreliably. Maybe that was limited to the popular models i owned a few years ago, and that has in turn biased my view that many people returning a particular model of brake to a manufacturer with a non bleed related issue (they were advising people when they thought bleeding was the problem) makes a flawed brake, and not flawed people. Maybe if a brand has a problem whereby their product is not as reliable or servicable to a significant proportion of their customers as their competitors' are then their product is not up to standard, and that is a problem with the product, not with the users? Consumers should not have to resolve design flaws with the products.
Also, there is a difference between getting a fork serviced, and giving the fork back to the manufacturer because it has a major problem that the manufacturer is seemingly aware of and apologising for.
I was running various combinations of Juicys, Codes and Elixirs for years and can say, without qualification, I have learned all about the internals of every one of those three systems.
After years of experimenting with various bleed methods, the SRAM official method, my local LBS method, mates' methods, and after hours spent doing code and elixir lever overhauls because of a combination of seized pistons (code) and worn plastic parts (elixir), I decided personally to try some Shimano brakes. The rationale behind this was that, given my busy work and family schedule, I didn't want to sit down and strip down a lever, or re bleed the system again.... I would rather reduce the time spent fixing issues, I'd rather pick up the bike and go ride, so I bought some of last years Deore brakes and have been so impressed, I bought another set, and a set of SLX. The Avids have gone.
For a home mechanic, it is my personal experience that the Avid brakes I've had, required more of my time than have the Shimanos.
Here's a thought. If Avid know that their brakes need a bleed out of the box, and experience shows that most customers are too stupid or too lazy to bleed them, maybe just maybe it's time they changed their policy on selling part set-up goods to accommodate the reality of their customer base and started selling them fully bled. I work in sports marketing if my customers were that f-in stupid/stubborn I'd change the product spec to help them, anyone who wants a good product rep would do the same.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y
How would they size the hose?
XT all day for the money, feel , and quality.
@chadwick
If your riding mid-grade brakes and not taking care of / or maintaining them , of coarse your gonna have issues you idiot.
Would you ride a kmart bike full speed downhill with your Heath depending on it ?
Why run lower grade brakes in that situation and expect perfection ?
P.s - I loved my avid OX's.
Rode them a full season - XC and downhill without any issues at all.
1. Shimano exists, simple as that. You cant get anymore reliable/durable/powerful than the xtr trail brakes. they rock
2. Their reputation is terrible, and have pretty much always been that way since Avid/Sram brakes went past the point of no return.
3. they come from the factory with a bad bleed, im not sure about you guys, but i wouldn't trust it if their own factory cant bleed brakes properly...
I'm just hoping Avid/SRAM can 'brake' their own curse. get it, Lana? brake?
Avid Elixer = 3.18
Avid Juicy = 3.41
Avid Code = 4.15
Formula The one/RX/R1 = 4.39
Hope M4/Me evo/V2/X2/X2 evo= 4.56
Hayes HFX 9 = 3.4
Hayes Prime, Pro, Stroker ace, carbon, gram, ryde, trail = 3.90
Shimano Overall (XT/Saint/SLX/XTR/Zee) = 4.21
Shimano XT = 4.16
Shimano Saint = 4.12
Shimano SLX = 4.15
Shimano XTR = 4.30
Shimano Zee = 4.47
That's the view of the general public, simple data available to all. Sram/Avid is well below where it should be, I'm actually surprised Shimano wasn't better. Hayes also did well considering not many people on this site would buy there brakes at the moment, just not cool or advertised.
You have to be impressed by Hope & Formula beating the big companies in the public's view.
Just point me in the right direction please.
People can go back and forth on design and maintenance philosophies all day, but the point is that both sides seem to agree that one of the products (Avid) seems to require a non-negligible amount more service than the other (Shimano) on average. To be a product of equal quality, it would have to perform better to make up for it, but that's not what I hear from people online, in shop, or in person. If people and their maintenance/laziness are the problem with Avids, and Avids and Shimanos are of comparable quality, then you would expect to hear about just as many problems with Shimano as Avid. But we don't hear that. So either Shimano customers are smarter and better at maintenance or you need to conclude that Avid is offering a lower quality product, or at least not suiting their design specs to their consumer base as well.
I don't think you have to be an Avid hater to find fault with their QC and design/production philosophy. Personally I love most SRAM products. I have used SRAM Apex group, Truvativ stuff, and several RS XC forks and liked them all. Hell, I've even used Avid Shortys, Single Digits, BB7s, and BB5s with zero issues. On the other hand, I've never met someone who gushes about Avid hydraulics the way they gush about Shimanos, and I've heard lots of complaints about the need for maintenance. That's pretty much enough to deter me from buying Avid hydros, but hopefully Guides can change that.
Any decent brake these days will lock up a wheel with 1 finger, so that's not important any more. You should ask: "How easy is it to NOT lock up the wheel?" Good modulation will save your ass in low traction situations.
Why would that be any more likely than someone buying and reviewing a bike with OEM shimano brakes? Sure, internet reviews should always be taken with grains of salt, but the reviews of one product is far better than the other in the same class.
"I'll admit that if your bicycle maintenance philosophy is to mount a part and forget about it, Shimano is better because it just seems to require less attention."
In other words, Shimano has a more robust and reliable design that offers the same performance. That's pretty much by definition a better design. Less time wrenching is more time riding.
"But the attention required by Avid isn't unreasonable. But the attention required by Avid isn't unreasonable. In fact, about once every 5 or 6 rides, everyone should really take the time to at least pull the pads out of your caliper and inspect them."
Every 5 rides? That's an insanely short service/inspection interval for pretty much any consumer product I can think of. I trust my life to my car all the time, and that gets inspected once every couple months at most. Should they have the same standards? Probably not. But it's a bike, not an airliner or fighter jet. Any piece of recreational equipment that requires inspection that often is a bad piece of equipment, imo (except maybe climbing rope? but you just look at it whenever you coil it up). If that was the industry standard that would be one thing, but there is at least one option in the market that setting the bar way higher in terms of reliability.... until Avid hydros can catch up they can't really be considered a better/equal product.
Avid is way better than Shimano.
is that better?
Again, come back out when you've grown up a bit and don't feel the need to troll an article. People are trying to have a conversation here. It's absolutely marvelous that your THIRTY FOUR year old ass feels the need to harass and annoy a group of people trying to learn, but if you don't mind, could you take it somewhere more appropriate? Say 4chan?
So. Do you mind shutting up and letting the people talk? Sat aside for ages letting people discuss their opinions only to see your constant shitty little jabs. If you don't want to talk about bikes, get the f*ck off a biking website. Obvious.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6ZSbpj21W0
As a professional bike mechanic and workshop manager, I've worked on literally 100's of hydraulic brake systems including Sachs (!!), Magura, Formula, Avid, Shimano, Hope, Tektro, Hayes.
I've also had constant involvement in undertaking warranty claims on both brand new (boxed bike) and used brake systems for customers.
Avid in my opinion had a good solid product with their juicy series. There were some QC issues on later Juicy models typically on the lower cost models made for the OE market. Generally if you bled Juicys properly and perhaps once a year, replaced the caliper seals / pistons and lubed with silicon grease, those brakes would run like butter for many seasons
would not tarr Avid brakes as being "cr*p". Avid built a huge OE business (taking the market share from Hayes) and so you see more Avid brakes on bikes, and more faults. It's all proportional. I have run Avid brakes since the original Juicy and have owned many versions of Juicy and Elixir, some were golden, others a nightmare that required warranty claims.
Same situation for my many customers....Avid warranty is very good and timely (and generous) which has helped me in my job when dealing with angry customers with brake issues! My last set of Avid (Elixir 7) failed after 7 weeks, Avid could not sold the issues and replaced both brakes FOC with aftermarket version which had the carbon fibre levers. No issues since..
The new brakes in this article are interesting because they are not using the "taperbore" MC design, but a larger piggyback design. See what happens.
Currently building many bikes with an Italian brake fitted and that is a sh*tfest to say the least...brakes faulty of out the box with DOT all over the workshop floor!
agree about the spacing - that was a side effect of the "taperbore" design for the MC which was basically a much slimmer design with low fluid volume, this made the brake very very sensitive to pad wear. I've seen many elixirs (including my own) where 1/2 of the pad material is still on the backing plate yet the brake does not work properly as the fluid volume has dropped below the tolerance range for the MC timing port
This is actually commented on in the article for this new brake, that they have increased fluid volumes, it can only be a good thing
something else that has been interesting is SRAM advertising globally on job recruitment websites for a hydraulic brake engineer to work in Colorado
in the road cycling market, SRAM made a huge mess with their new hydro discs which got recalled due to safety issues in cold weather, I have customers who purchased kit before Christmas 2013 and have been told its probably May 2014 for their replacement
no problem, those of us working at the "blunt end" get to see these issues first hand. Most brakes don't actually have "bad bleeds" but poor setups!
something I will say about all DOT based brake systems is that something riders / customers need to understand is that DOT based system degrade over time due to the corrosive nature of the DOT fluid on the rubber parts in the caliper and MC, after some time you do need to be replacing these parts.
2 issues I have seen, too many times:-
1 is "sticky pistons" in DOT systems where the rider has gone to the trouble of rebuilding the brake and during this rebuild have split the caliper half, degreased the metal parts, installed new pistons and seals but made the fatal mistake of "lubing" the seals with DOT fluid during the rebuild. DOT is not a lubricant..its a brake fluid. Using DOT as a lube on the seals certainly makes them feel smooth when you push the pistons back in during the rebuild, but does not lubricate the seals and actually causes them to swell within minutes causing binding! The only item to use is high-temp silicon grease on the seals, and then degrease the caliper halves before rebuilding, to remove any excess grease. Doing this right gives butter smooth brake action.
2 is "centering the brake" using the pads over rotor as a guide, rather than the caliper-half. Many 2-piece calipers have a split-line, this should be eyeballed as the centre line when centreing the brake over the rotor. Using the pads as a centre often reflects the existing problem of sticky pistons, and exaggerates the issue going forward.
in constrast, Mineral Oil based brakes don't suffer the same rubber degredation as DOT systems over time. This is why many mineral oil brake manufacturers don't offer rubber parts.
If a magazine or website gets invited to test parts then the parts will likely be the first off the production line, if the companies had done done the QC process correctly on those assemblies, i.e. a full inspection on every component, not just critical features, then we would not see many bad reviews.
The stuff we the public buy is the production goods, the every day stuff that comes out of the factory. In my opinion the quality and reviews of this is much more important than a magazine/website and we can see what quality a company produces in the real world.
It's great to get an insight as to what new products are coming to the bike world, everyone likes a bit of bike porn to gaze over and it's why we read sites like this.
In my opinion Avid have some great designs when they work but you have to question the quality of the manufacturing and the also the designs if it can not be made time and time again at the correct quality. A small bore change due to bad tooling, a score left by a bit of swarf, porosity of a seal or caliper can mean the difference between a brake that will function perfectly and one which will never work right. With the correct QC and processes you can get rid of most of the problems.
From the divided opinion on this site and the data available to us you have to conclude that Avid have struggled over the last 5 years or so to match the public opinion of the other companies.
by the way, it's "what goes around, comes around."
I think the thing with Avid might be some people remember how good their Vbrakes were and where as shimano have made a good jump into the hydro market avid havent thrown anything out there yet that people have sat back and gone "holy sh*t i need me a pair of them". Hope have a good rep, hayes did have, shimano certainly do where as avid generally, and i stress the generally, most people have a "meh" sort of attitude about
Again, you can leave and come back when you're ready to act like an adult. Clearly not there yet. Clearly.
I'd still say Avid has a better public image than most companies. Fox has been able to keep getting love after year after year of mediocre products lines. Spec is able to constantly put out shitty standards. We get on with it as they also make a host of really good parts, exactly like Sram does. If Sram were to nix their other names, such as Avid and Truvativ, and keep it all under the Sram tree, I feel people would be forced to open their eyes at all the good shit they make, like drivetrains, suspension, and small parts.
By the way, idiot, I was quoting Trailer Park Boys after someone posted a TPB video. I'm sorry you're not up to date on pop culture, but please do try to keep ahead before trying to sound smart. It has once again backfired.
What do you guys say to the article that quotes WC pro riders preferring Formula and Shimano brakes?
Link:
www.pinkbike.com/news/mick-hannahs-polygon-dh-bos-air-sprung-suspension-26-inch-wheels-2014.html
Avid brakes are under the exact same scrutiny as any other brand, idiots ride all brands. The difference is that they made design choices that were fundamentally flawed in their products. Hell i ride SRAM carbon road wheels, they didn't even bother to offset drill the spoke holes on the rims when they launched them, that created an inexcusable stress riser where spokes used to ping every ride. The next season they offset drilled them, but what a*shole weighed up that choice- widespread spoke failure vs cost of a new drilling jig. That's a choice that speaks of accountants and marketing idiots running the show, not engineers.
Also really like how nobody was responding to your trolling so you just kept spamming until someone does. Still going to try and convince us you're not a troll?
Oh, and if you can't handle being called inept when you're acting flatout inept, don't act inept? That seems pretty obvious. Sorry for calling a spade a spade, ya troll.
you're very angry and full of anxiety. seek help.
Though honestly, you're right. Your shit stinks loudly enough that I'm sure everyone is seeing through you, hence not getting much love. It's a silent agreement that you're annoying as f*ck. 34 years old and still can't get on in a social situation. Pretty sad really.
Cheers. Have a good one.
Nevertheless the discussion span out of control. I like it. The neverending battle of brands continues.
Shimano brakes- which I salute I must admit- deliver significant advantages in few departments- reliability, price vs consistency, price vs predictability and so on. There are plenty of brands that deliver amazing stoppers- Formula, Hope, etc.- and they share the same principle: they simply work. No extra terrestrial activities required, no rocket science. My XT set is almost 14 months old now- bled twice. Once after I shortened the hose 14 months ago and once about 3 months ago when the oil was simply toast. These days Shimano brakes are simple to bleed which makes it even a bigger paradox- making something so easy despite the fact that it is not even needed- that is the advantage I am talking about. They have flaws too- crappy bite point adjustment to name one- yet they still work.
Avids were always (quoting) hit and miss. In general they were a miss. They were a hit for few lucky buggers. It has nothing to do with bleeding or lack of thereof; nothing to do with neglecting them; nothing to do with a set up. They are not good brakes- yes indeed I admit I know they are developing quite promptly but they are still behind. For whatever silly reason you think it has anything to do with me as an end user- I really do not get it. I truly must be a simpleton...
SRAM makes great stuff- drivetrain is astonishing, cockpit items are smashing, droppers got defined by SRAM. They are not a bad company- they make amazing gear- just not all of it is the best. Live with it. As of my experience and bike mechanical knowledge- you would never know thus assuming that I am a cretin is not going to get you sympathy.
this is the internet. remember, everyone will give their two cents, but no one really gives a f*ck about what you have to say. you can only be taken so seriously.
You'll also note all of my comments were basically what you're saying right now. "Talk about bikes or shut up." You're doin' the same thing as me, just you're pointing it at the wrong dude. I'd very gladly get back to the brake at any given point. f*ck, I'd be down to talk about other avid shit. I'd talk about magura brakes. I'd talk about just about most anything at this point to get this retarded troll off my back so I can get the f*ck on with it.
HELP ME?
If this is happening in my area...I find it extremely hard to believe my area is an isolated incident.
Does it seem my theory was correct?
m.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=154516
...and now I am going to write a negative review on their new stuff.
But maybe they are now indeed better. Most problematic thing with their master cylinder design are apparently addressed, by copying the best brakes in the business. It may just work.
just guessing….
Power - Precision - Control. Unfortunately, it makes me think of the old saying about "light, strong, cheap".
"SRAM brakes. Power, precision, control - pick two"
Well, you would not. Cause now they are SRAM.
lol
New for 2015 Elite Enduro...it's not for you. HA HA
Calling them Sram instead of Avid might fool some people, but if they haven't sorted the caliper seal material, they (the seals)will still need replacing after 6/12 months! Find out what material Hope use, and copy! Seals last year's and use the same fluid!
I want to like Avid/Sram brakes, when working the feel/modulation is fantastic, unfortunately the next pull usually hits the bar!
So they basically aped the Servo wave cam from Shimano.
Well, good move. Maybe now they will not suck.
They've never been bled, I mounted them straight out of the box. My front was a dud out of the box that was warrantied with zero questions. Ever since that I've had no issues. I do need to shorten the hoses now I've found a bar/stem setup I plan on keeping for a while. I have 400 miles on those brakes. They are unbelievably powerful, great feel, good looking and reliable.
Before that I had 2011 elixir 3s. The worked ok but they were horribly loud. Once I changed the pads to organic they were rideable but the pads were worn out within 2-3 months. They had so much lever travel when the pads were below 50% the levers would hit my grips. I ended up replacing them before they were totally worn out because of that. (it was either that, or re-bleed them and have issues with new thicker pads when they needed replacement). After I had about 150 miles on them there was so much play in the levers (up and down, the way they're not suppose to move) that I'd miss grabbing the lever occasionally after taking my finger off. They needed bushings or bearings on the pivots to prevent this.
I also boiled the fluid in my avids several times. First time I thought it was a fluke, second time I damn near went off a switchback. That was the final straw for me. (I was 200lb at the time, riding an anthem 29er). Ordered the XTs the next day.
I had much better luck with hydraulic tektros that came stock on my wifes Giant avail. We got her an anthem with the base shimanos and they're also great - much better than the avids.
I ride about 40 miles a week, 2 rides of 20 miles or so depending on how I'm feeling.
But it's been more than 2 years already, as stated, and i would like to try some Shimanos now, to see if all the hype is true. but i need to sell my Hayeses first.
I have owned my share of avids Juicy 5's and 7's and both were Rad, I also had Codes which were also powerful and semi reliable. But then came the ELIXER'S, now if they are on your bike try this: store your bike upside down for an hour or it may only take flipping the bike over upside down, this experiment should show results of a squishy lever or a pull to the bar feel which will result in pumping or bleeding the brake system. I also agree with your argument that the brakes can be heavy, but that all depends on the brake system that you choose, I gave example of Tech 3 E4 which is a quad piston enduro/freeride brakeset. If you ride this way your first concern isn't a light part, but a part that is reliable and in this case POWERFUL. If you truly want the facts lets compare apples to apples a pair of Hope X2 Race Brakes weigh 396 Grams and a pair of Shimano XTR Race Brakes weigh 458 Grams but who's counting. Are hopes really heavier or do they just look heavier being that they are made of metal and not carbon and plastic materials. Like most things Sram puts on the market, They will allow their R&D TEAM to make a beautiful refined LOOKING PRODUCT and bring it to the market and TEST IT ON THE PUBLIC. So let's count the warranties in the first three months on the market and hope this doesnt happen again as it could be very damaging to their mountain market.Check this out if you haven't seen it already: sramroadhydraulicbrakerecall.com. Some feedback for your future purchase, Consider the hope tech 3 e4 brakes if you havent ridden them, the lever feel can be set to your liking by you easily, and if you dont like them, you will have no problem getting your money out of them when you sell them. Saints are also a great choice as are the ZEE brakeset if your looking for the quad piston setup. "HOPE" this helps and Happy Trails!
Well, as a matter of fact, i had a front Elixir and a rear juicy 5 for around 2 years. I assure you, they've had their fare share of being pressed to the max while the bike is parted out, in a car's trunk, without a rotor between the pads, on multiple ocasions. And yes, i had to bleed them after all... at the end of the 2 years in which they were in my posession. During all this time they've been flawless!
As for the X2 Race brakes, i am not interested in them as they are not powerfull enough for more than XC, so for me their price is unacceptable. And i am also sure they are heavier than Formula's R1s which are 270g per piece. And the newest XTR is around the 306g mark (all the examples are for front brake with 160mm rotor). Don't really know where you get your numbers from. The E4 brake is as heavy as the older quad-piston Saint and is less powerful than it, so what's left for comparing it with the new one? And i will not even comment on the V2/V4 brakes which have a really alternative heat management to Shimano's Ice Tech stuff when only coupled with the Vented rotors... which are mighty heavy, something like 300g for the rotor. Which brings the total weight of the brake system on your bike close to 1300g... :O Sorry, in my opinion 300g of a difference is substantial compared to a Saint setup.
As for the road hydraulic brakes' recall - yeah, i know. I read news - i am out of the cave now.
As for lever feel - i am not sure you understood me correctly. What i meant was i don't like the shape of the lever, it is totally wrong for my hands and this makes the whole feel of the brake crappy. I don't like it, i am not comfortable with it, and therefore am not able to use it to its full potential, i cannot sqeese the lever hard enough with 1 finger only to achive the stopping power i need. It might sound stupid, but is a fact.
Happy trails!
I always compare same class brakes, not different. And am not interested in XC-brakes as my ass is heavy!
And all the brakes i read about are stated as complete set for a front brake, 160mm IS mount and 160mm rotor. Saint may look heavier than Hope according to your post, but it has the finned pads which are a major strenght in the brake-game. Only thing that can compare with it (with a Hope brand on it) is the vented rotor. Which is around 100g more than a Shimano rotor. For 2 brakes - 200g.
As for the other stuff - yeah, i don't put the weight as a number one factor when buying brakes. i look for the lever feel, the durability, the power. Guess a total weight of 1kg for the whole brakeset is enough. But this is absolutely enough!
so it first looks like to work as a DOT based shimano clone... nice.
what next? an other recall?
Good modulation also makes it easier to anticipate the point during braking at which your tire is going to skid, rather than grip.
It can probably be partially explained by a 1:1 ratio between brake lever movement and braking force, but there is a non-objective "feel" element as well.
RC
First, I've been a Formula fan for the last 10 or more years... this year my new Railon came with Formula T1's supposed to be the bomb. Well... if this counts I never beet my strava times on the new bike over the old bike ( Trek Scratch with K24 special editions - they were awesome brakes). So why is that I wondered...
I've got BOS front and back and couldn't get the front sorted out and the back, always was going 'pang, pang' which seemed to be the back end locking like brake jam then getting tracktion. my new bike was just not my best friend like i was hoping. And riding my old bike... just still was more comfortable. i was even going to put the k24s on them.
Just finished my first weekend with the new Guide RSC. Let me tell you. my bike is new again! And its smooth like butter on the same home trail I've been fighting.
.... did you hear that? exactly, those discs are killer quiet!! And smooth on the braking side.
And the lever feel - about perfect.
Modulation - my T1's were nervous brakes, like I couldn't imagine. I bled them three times, and a shop bled them, to try and get them "smooth" in their grab and feel.
I cleaned the very first time a techy steep switch back that I almost made with my formula's... today, perfect.
And both front and back is running so smooth! Like the BOS are famous for - today I also ran full open on a section I hadn't with the formulas since the last steep part of this section was super loose and closing with tight corners. I was skipping down that like I had a skip rope.... today?? butter.
oh, one last thing, I did cut my hoses to fit, without bleeding the levers - honestly! unscrew, snip, screw in the new thingy, put the other thingy on and re screw back together. No bleeding at all. After two days I can say I won't have to bleed them either they got pretty hot today on a 1000' downhill. And still so quiet!!
happy camper here :-) both with the brakes and my new best friend my Rallon.
I don't know why, they just do
Love the SRAM drivetrains. Love the Rock Shox forks.
I'm getting a pair of saints again and selling the XO's on Ebay. SRAM will have to do a lot to win me over.... why risk it? Shimano all the way.
If Avid come up with better working Exlixir 5's and decent Codes, I might reconsider my choice, as they are good at making bling bling
That is good news right there. I was in danger of running out of fingers and toes to count how many times I had "issues" with some of the plastic elements found in previous Avid brakes from a few years back, leading to lever overhauls.
and now x0 trail are outdated, or what?
early adopters beware
Next thing is Avid Bleed Kit which is extremely expensive compared to syringe with 15cm o tube and a funnel.
Don't get me wrong: Elixirs were really enjoyable but lack of spare parts ruins everything so now I'm Shimano again
THEY ARE AVIDS!!!!
They won't work, condesending idiots will teel you it's your fault for not knowing how to service them (every other ride...), they will fail at the worst time and their life span will be measured in months. Oh, and they look AWFUL.
Seriously, do not buy this crap, you'll only encourage them to make more.
Why dont all of you "super experienced mountain biker keyboard jockeys" save the commentary about which is better until you try the brakes. Yes, you can go off of previous experiences of yours, but state it as such. "I tried juicy 7's 6 years ago and they didnt work as well as the shimano Zees". That is a worthwhile opinion.
"I have never seen or tried these brakes but Shimano Zee's are better" - that is a worthless piece of internet garbage.
You guys are like my kids. "How do you know you don't like mushrooms?" "Because I've never tried them."
And it's been how many years since Hope came out with the Mono M4?
Better late than never I suppose...
Then stick with your Hopes or Shimano's!
''Because one full brake recall wasn’t enough!''
If not, save your worthless opinion. Pinkbike is full of trolls, they don't need any more.