Katy Winton Reveals Uncertain Future as a Full-Time Racer

Sep 14, 2023 at 3:35
by Ed Spratt  
photo

Katy Winton has become one of the first riders to reveal her uncertain future as a full-time racer with a very honest social media post. In Katy's announcement, she stated: "this time of year is an uncertain time for most riders, however, what’s more unsettling is how uncertain a time it is for so many teams resulting in even more riders struggling to secure their futures." Katy herself has said that the GT Factory team, which she joined in 2022, has been open with her about upcoming changes that could mean this weekend's race in Châtel is her last as a full-time racer.

With budgets tightening and rumours of teams shutting down the off-season is looking tough for riders without a secured team spot in 2024. We have heard rumblings of a few top teams shrinking or leaving World Cup racing in 2024 as brands try to manage a tough sales environment.


bigquotesThis time of year is an uncertain time for most riders, however, what’s more unsettling is how uncertain a time it is for so many teams resulting in even more riders struggling to secure their futures. @gtfactoryracing have been as open and honest as possible with me that there are changes ahead for them.

For me, however, this could well be my final EDR race of my career as a full-time racer.

There are so many riders in this position too. This stark reality comes at a grim time for the industry, and in turn EDR world level racing. The hay day of covid bike sales is very much over and now we have a complete lack of buying… things are not looking good.

I don’t know what my future holds. I’m working on it. I feel like my best is yet to come, but I’m looking at all my options but first and foremost I’m giving everything to this final race this weekend.

I’m so grateful for @gtfactoryracing and all our team partners for supporting me through the hardest period of my life, and believing and supporting me to rebuild to a point of being more in love with riding and with a far healthier happier relationship with racing than ever before. If this race is the end, regardless of result, to be able to race with all my heart again is enough.

Grateful to be here, grateful for this journey. What will be will be, cheers to bikes.— Katy Winton

Katy Winton would be greatly missed on the Enduro race circuit and we hope she is able to find support for future race seasons.

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221 Comments
  • 265 4
 Why would any team stay in enduro honestly? There’s absolutely zero coverage or exposure besides what the racers put out themselves. No return on investment. Discovery has mangled the DH and more so enduro racing. Bike companies will be pulling the plug on gravity race teams and you can’t blame them.
  • 86 7
 Dh coverage i like. But enduro is complete fail. The highlights videos they put out is 2/3 of the time looking at result charts and listening to repetitive cliches of the presenter. And actual race footage they show seems like a compilation from spectators phones. Shame, because the race format is way more fun than DH
  • 32 2
 @GZMS: Not only that, I imagine enduro bikes are sold in much higher numbers than DH bikes. The issue is mainly that a sports series has to be able to stand on its own two feet and the current coverage doesn't allow that. I'd be curious to know how many people base their bike purchase on the back of enduro or DH race results. My guess is very few. That leaves external sponsorship to keep the money flowing and coverage is simply not sufficient. It is unfortunately the way of less mainstream sports. Surfing is another example that has a series only followed by the keenest of surfer whilst in the end it's the soft tops and decathlon wet-suits where the money is made. Why pay athletes big cheques when in reality it doesn't really matter?
  • 107 4
 This situation is confirming so many people’s fears about the UCI takeover followed by Discovery getting the broadcast rights. The YouTube coverage was so much better and I watched every race. I haven’t seen one event Enduro or DH this year.
  • 43 0
 @whambat: Same. 5 years ago when Sam Hill and so on were racing, the coverage was really good and I loved the race recaps
  • 6 0
 heyy! wasn´t mean to be the opposite ?? Wasn´t Discovery and UCI be the holy grail of the future of our sport? Why was working so good when it was pushed by riders and the industry and why change it... who grab the money in the waayy?.. shouldn´t anyone resign having now first victims?..
  • 17 0
 @schwaaa31: You are right, media coverage of EDR is non-existent comparing to DH, it is also impossible to create Enduro coverage on level of DH because it would include waaay too large investments into media coverage (google how much it costs to cover i.e. any of roadies Grand tour coverages for compare costs of cover multi-stage Enduro race - think helicopters, staff, a lot of cameras, inaccesible location for filming crews trucks etc...).

Marketing return is OK for DH WC, for Enduro its probably non-existent.
It doesn't matter that there are zilion Enduro bikes sold compared to DH bikes - what it matter is Brand media exposure. Consumers see i.e. Commencal bikes win in DH, then they google Commencal and buy Meta TR Smile
  • 32 0
 @vp27: I could be completely off base but it seems to me that the general consumer base that loves to watch downhill buy enduro bikes not dh bikes because it's more accessible and makes more sense for the available riding to most of us. We all love to watch dh but very few actually need a dh bike. So it seems that dh teams drive sales of enduro bikes and products either directly or through trickle down. Enduro is such a cool idea but so hard to cover in a way that is beneficial for everyone.
  • 15 3
 To me the DH coverage is very close to Red Bull's in quality. Not much to complain about what would be a unique Discovery issue. Enduro, I haven't watched so far. But it's well known for at least 10 years now, that apt coverage for EWS is nigh impossible due to total stage length of each event, remoteness of locations, and all that in combination with very little ROI. It's a shame given how exciting enduro can be, but unless someone comes up with an idea for say cheap and easy to set up capturing tech, it's kind of a no brainer that the coverage is sub-par.
  • 1 0
 @GZMS: Yes
  • 2 0
 @MI-Corey: Not off base at all Smile . It's what makes DH viable as a series vs the EWS. I don't know how many riders would buy a bike based of DH results, but you make a good point. I guess Atherton bikes is the clearest example. I would add that it opens up the door to wider sponsorship as well, not just bikes. I just don't see that with EWS and its limited viewership.
  • 18 1
 @GZMS: Repetitve cliches is Rics middle name
  • 3 1
 @whambat: enduro is on YouTube if you look for it, quality is no different to last year, probably better but that isn’t hard.
  • 25 28
 DH coverage is good. The drones are sweet, they have more cameras than redbull did. People, REDBULL WAS NOT THAT GOOD
  • 12 2
 @bertimusmaximus: THAT. Semis kill the vibe for me, not coverage
  • 17 2
 @bertimusmaximus: hate drones, each to their own
  • 5 0
 Unfortunately I just do t have time to watch all this racing. Between all DH, XCC and XCO I sometimes feel I’m watching races at the expense of actual riding.
  • 41 1
 hey this is my 30th year riding mtbs. It’s also my first season in about 2 decades where I haven’t been a slave to the MtB racing news. I haven’t watched a single WC race, nothing. I used to watch every single minute of all disciplines with my kids. I barely visit Pinkbike for news either. It’s a whole trickle down thing that I’m still trying to digest. What changed? For me, Discovery. The loss of free racing content offered by Red Bull was what really got the whole family into it. Not just the racing. They put out a tremendous volume of content. Now, I can’t even watch WynTV because I’m not at all invested in the season because, the base content is gone. Take this as you wish, just an average guys 2 cents.
  • 5 1
 Enduro was covered by discover (GCN/GMBN) last year as well. Enduro is inherently difficult to cover and will never be as watchable as DH sadly.

Personally I don't mind the DH coverage, its fine. With the exception of Rob, Redbull was just fine as well. Discovery has lots of room for improvement and I'd like to see the riders having a bigger say in how things are organized in regards to semi finals etc.
  • 2 0
 @GZMS: The race format is more fun as a participant but as a viewer DH is definitely more fun IMO.
  • 10 2
 Nah man, your wrong. It isnt a Discovery issue. Enduro is boring AF to watch on TV. If enduro wants viewers they need a max of 3 stages with 4 man head to head racing and slightly wider trails for more chances to pass. Maybe some ladder drops or a triple. Guy's dressed in Sasquatch suits jumping out on trail occasionally. Joking aside, the format just isn't interesting to watch in its entirety on TV.
  • 3 1
 @whambat: we’ll it’s all making sure that road cycling stays the no1 discipline so the UCI are happy.
  • 7 0
 With respect, she’s not in the top 15 overall on a good, factory supported team. Even without shrinking budgets or the lousy race coverage I’m not sure she’d land a ride. Time marches on for everyone.
  • 3 0
 @kipvr: Road cycling gets views because its exciting. UCI wouldn't care if paint drying got views if it made them money.
  • 5 1
 @whambat: The coverage on Youtube is the same as it was last year isnt it? I just went on GMBN Racing feed on Youtube and found a 24 minute highlight video of the last EDR round which is pretty much what I watched last season too to keep up with the racing.

The DH coverage I defend everytime anyone starts on at it. And I get the difficulties of good coverage and live coverage at an EDR.
  • 6 2
 @bertimusmaximus: Finally someone I can relate to! Free is apparently the only criteria people look for!
  • 6 0
 @Becciu: Semis are a bit crap - I only watch the finals. But the semis runs do seem to be throwing the racers off a bit - its a bit more of an endurance event! Teh mens coverage for just the finals takes enough time as it is - I cant afford the whole day to watch both the semi and final!
  • 8 0
 @Leven: Many of us would rather watch paint dry than road racing. So there is that. lol
  • 7 2
 @bertimusmaximus: the drones a crap. Bad quality that you can't even see the underground. I also doubt that they have more cameras than redull. And what do more cameras help if the film to a place where nothing happens?
  • 15 3
 @sebazzo: You're joking right?
Things that are worse in DH this year: Camera angles, random crowd or team shots DURING race runs, random interviews with other racers during race runs, semi-finals (f*ck semis), the announcers, the chick that called Tahnee Seagrave the wrong name, Amaury's awkward forced interview, we were promised full race runs but haven't gotten a single one, races cancelled, forced to pay for this crap coverage.... The list is too long, Red Bull was great, the price was right, and Rob is the voice of mountain biking. I gave Discovery 5 chances to get it right and I don't see it happening.
  • 10 1
 @nocoast: Don't forget the awkward sound effects of bikes making noise as the 'jump' and 'land' etc. 80's sitcom BS
  • 2 1
 The EWS kicked off in 2013. The coverage now is far better than it was then. And there are far more riders producing content.
  • 3 0
 @MI-Corey: Yeah it's wild how Formula 1 is the most popular race series in the world yet I have never seen anyone driving one of those cars in my neighborhood.
  • 1 0
 @Leven: hmm each to their own.
  • 2 0
 @whambat: same here. Totally lost interest
  • 4 1
 @nocoast: I've followed (occasionally) DH racing for ten years and some now, and all the critics to discovery's coverage were the same addressed to redbull just a couple years ago.
They really started to get things right in the last couple of seasons IMHO, and they always got a pass 'cause streaming was free.
Discovery's DH coverage (for what i've seen) isn't dramatically worse than last years, and they have the advantage they only can improve from their first guessing at it.
I don't love drones as they're used now, BUT there's a lot of potential here, and it would be a shame not use them in a sport where some shot couldn't be taken otherwise.
Realtime onboard cameras should be cool, but onestly, i don't know if the tecnology is applicable here.
More on topic, coverage for ews has always been a joke but i think, in the early years there was a major effort by media outlets to make original content about it and this is missing nowadays (I follow PB, and a couple other sites for racing content, i'm not that invested to search the tube for athlete's content)...
  • 4 2
 @whambat: I’m not buying that. The EWS was created by a group of people including Chris Ball, ex UCI DH delegate and currently still organising the events. Are you really suggesting he is trying to sabotage the very thing he helped create?
  • 3 1
 @onyxss: This. Look at how easy it is to cover an F1 race versus a World Rally event. Both are the top of the tree for their disciplines but how they are broadcast is completely different due to logistics.
  • 2 0
 @chrismac70: FOLLOW THE MONEY... who benefited A LOT from this whole UCI/EWS/DISCOVERY chaos...
  • 2 2
 @bertimusmaximus: Well said. They even still have RB commentators. Cedric did the RB French broadcast in previous seasons.
  • 2 2
 @Becciu: I love the semis. It makes the final a far better broadcast.
  • 3 1
 @nocoast: Take it easy man

Memory's a bitch. Red Bull was nowhere near perfect. And Discovery's in first year. Way to go.
  • 1 0
 @chrismac70: no, not saying any sabotage. It’s more of a coverage issue where UCI went to try to get bigger revenue from Discovery, but probably ended up losing audience instead of gaining more. Some things just don’t scale up well to create bigger profits. I was an early critic of Enduro, but became hooked on the coverage on YouTube and readily admitted I was wrong about Enduro as a discipline years ago. However, I don’t think the sport’s following isn’t big enough or ready for paywall broadcasting to turn a profit for Discovery. Personally, I liked the old recap format where it seemed like a travel show highlighting great biking areas that also covered some racing.
  • 3 1
 @paulskibum: it’s baffling all the hate all of sudden, as you said coverage is exactly the same as last year, the quality of the highlights is better as last years they only showed the top 3 on each stage an were rightly criticised for it. So many people who just want a moan who probably didn’t care much in the first place if suddenly they won’t watch it anymore, good riddance
  • 2 0
 @whambat: RB never had the enduro broadcast rights
  • 1 1
 @Kiltymac: you could always count on gmbn to mess it up. I think thier target is the under 12s
  • 1 0
 @jimmythehat:
  • 1 0
 @jimmythehat: all you can up with is good riddance? You do understand that the exodus of viewers is clear and the title sponsors see it, and the $ is drying up right? All really bad things if you’re a fan. You should care.
  • 2 0
 @bubbrubb: yeah casuals, race fans stick with it, nothing has changed for the viewer, are you protesting against entry fees and the like?
  • 109 1
 Whatever company thought the the Covid sales boom was the new normal needed their head shaking.

We saw so much spend and growth of some companies, like it was a gravy train that would never end.

What's they think was about to happen?
  • 17 0
 With Peloton being the most barmy example of this, you didn't need to be an industry analyst to be able to see that their boom in sales wasn't sustainable but somehow they couldn't see it
  • 68 1
 @rambotion2: stockholder expectations often have nothing to do with reality
  • 17 0
 This is not unique to bike sales. It happens in every industry. It’s as if these executives are oblivious to the ebbs and flows of even a normally functioning economy, let alone one with Covid issues.

A but if a tailwind and it’s full gas, expand, growth, etc. Then as soon as there is a headwind they are caught with their pants down. Too much inventory, too much debt, etc. and they are forced into extreme cut backs.

Follow the stock market even a little and you can see why this happens. Investors are obsessed with growth. Even if a company is healthy and growing, they will get hammered simply for not growing at a fast enough rate.
  • 17 1
 @sino428: it’s greed, plain and simple.
  • 29 1
 Hindsight is 2020
  • 9 0
 The thing about it though is that sales levels are still better than pre-covid for the most part. The boom has cooled, but there's still more people outdoors than pre-covid and it's alarming how many companies didn't expect a cool. The shop I manage did anticipate that and we've come out even through it all, where as companies like Backcountry and Evo has some absolutely massive bills to pay right now.
  • 4 2
 @sino428: Look at it this way,
there was a huge demand, unprecedented, in a sport that we all love, and usually try to get others involved in. There was this idea that if people gave it a chance, they would love it, and become life long enthusiasts.
Its easy to get caught up in the frenzy at the time, you wouldnt want to get left behind if the company next door is cashing in.

One of the other reasons is leverage, most of the bike industry is running on leverage, and is always in a state of over extension. if things had gone back to levels of pre-pandemic, there would likely still be an inventory surplus, but by all accounts, things have shrunk quite a bit from even the most conservative forescasts.

Its real easy to look back with the insight we have now, but tell me you didnt buy some crap you didnt need during the covid lockdowns
  • 3 0
 That would be the entire bike industry.

Shimano actually comes out looking the best because they had (unrelated to COVID) massive production issues around the same time that kept production low.

My old neighbor does forecasting for Santa Cruz Bikes and in 2020 they were planning for a 300% increase through 2024. A wee bit off on that one.
  • 4 0
 @Bro-LanDog: I see what you did there...
  • 2 0
 @bikebasher: Santa Cruz got it massively wrong at the start of Covid too.
  • 1 0
 @sino428: I see you've read my credit card statements
  • 2 0
 I’m in the backcountry snowboarding business and COVID was awesome for us, honestly. But we weren’t foolish enough to think it was permanent (nor so big that we couldn’t roll with the punches, gratefully.)
  • 1 0
 Look at all the car dealerships that are full of new vehicles right now when two years ago there might have been 10-20 percent of capacity on the near empty lots. Also, its a wonder there is so many new one ton diesels when prices went up 15-30k in 3 years...
  • 2 0
 The reflexivity of markets can be a very violent phenomenon and definitely caught a ton of people off guard in this recent cycle. I think a many saw the writing was on the wall and forged ahead anyway, but at that point the mania had already worked its full effect and the orders were already submitted. If you think that was wild fasten your seatbelts, there could be something way crazier in store for for the MTB industry and broader market as well.
  • 3 0
 @onawalk: I did not buy stuff I didn't need.

However, I am now about to buy the product of their mistakes.

A brand new 2022 Specialized Enduro at 50% off. Because they've so many still in stock.
  • 1 1
 @lister11: cool man,
Good for you
  • 1 0
 @lister11: The downside;
you won't be racing your Enduro in any enduro's. Especially Euro enduro.
  • 1 0
 @SacAssassin: You can literally race what ever you want in an enduro....
  • 1 0
 @onawalk: not if you want to actually compete. You can do the same in DH or XC.
  • 1 0
 @BiNARYBiKE: Obviously, good catch there.
Theres plenty of people actually competing on Spesh enduro bikes in enduro races....

Dont let clowns tell you what you can and cant do, so many naysayers out there
  • 81 1
 For a while there, Enduro was awesome and promising to get better. Multi day racing in new and exotic locations on incredible trails. It kind of coincided with Downhills boring bikepark days and it was more exciting to watch people ride flat out on wild, natural terrain.
Then they started doing 5 DH stages in one day, in a typical euro village and gave it a name that makes no sense. EDR?
  • 17 1
 Exactly. Enduro was sanitized to fit the World Cup format and lost what it had going on for it. Add that to less and worst coverage,and if it's not greatly restructured for next year, it's only getting worst. For the fans,for the industry,and for the racers.
  • 12 0
 I'd honestly forgotten that there even was an Enduro series this season before reading this article. I've seen absolutely nothing about it
  • 6 0
 What does EDR even stand for?? I don't think we'll ever know.
  • 17 0
 @tbubier: Enduro Damage Report
  • 9 0
 Couldn't agree more. Used to be a big fan of EWS and follow it, whereas now i forget it is even on. The big multi day practice and races were easily the best to follow and race. I raced a couple of them myself and they were so much better than the one day DH format they've come up with now. Enduro is dying a death. Coverage and PR for enduro is non existent. Not really sure what bike companies gain from having an EWS team other than bike development for sales.
  • 2 0
 @tbubier: Experimental Downhill Racing? I don't know but haven't watched a single one with my GCN+ subscription.
  • 9 0
 @tbubier: endless dick rash
  • 2 0
 EXACTLY. Love watching enduro because its so unique but the EDR ruined it. Its just a watered down version of DH. Enduro is alot of fun but from a media aspect, DH beats it now. Hate to say it as i am a enduro racer myself but gotta face the music.
  • 4 0
 @tbubier: Endure Discovery Recession
  • 1 0
 @kipvr: Sad days
  • 62 1
 Is this a good time to mention that GCN is for sale, that the rights to the coverage are owned by Discovery, and one of the front-running buyers is Outside?

If you thought seeing racing was hard this year...
  • 33 0
 Yeah i wonder why every mtb media wrote an article about that apart from pinkbike...
  • 25 0
 I love how bluntly the Escape Collective puts the situation:

"One option is Outside Interactive Inc., a conglomeration of outdoor media titles and mapping apps that hoovered up cycling titles like Peloton, CyclingTips, Pinkbike, and VeloNews before shutting down or rebranding all but Pinkbike."
  • 33 4
 the sad part is there's more money than ever going into this sport, but with nearly every big brand involved in mountain biking now being owned by some mega conglomerate parent corporation less and less of that money goes to the riders.
  • 21 4
 Because there is no real incentive to spend 10's of thousands on riders each year who dont really get results and have no coverage on the non existent media, it's not selling bikes or enhancing the brands image.
  • 6 1
 @toad321: I totally agree. It will happen in DH very soon too. I bet that a lot of "outsiders" who are currently in a team will retire in few years to leave space to some more "affordable" and more "hungry" juniors. If you miss the final every race sponsors are not happy, no matter how many (and good) youtube videos you make...
  • 23 15
 Unregulated capitalism destroys everything.
  • 8 2
 That really isn't true captaindingus, it's hard times in the bike industry at the moment. It certainly is for us in Europe. Too much inventory left over from covid boom (and still inventory trying to land) causing a lot of cash-flow issues and urgency to sell, demand from customers fallen off due to inflation, interest rate hikes and cost-of-living issues have people more reluctant to spend. Demand for mechanical bicycles is at a 20 year low for us in the UK and well below 2019 levels (which wasn't a good year).

I'm no fan of conglomerates but the big parent companies who can afford for a brand to be unprofitable for a couple of years are the only reason a lot of places are still going.

At the higher end (which is everybody who reads Pinkbike) this is partially the industry shooting itself in the foot I think - there is a real discrepancy between what the customers want right now and what bike brands are trying to sell (ever increasing prices in a time when a lot of people are feeling the pinch). Hopefully that will start to correct itself. I think bringing better performance to the £2-3.5k price bracket is what people want.
  • 7 0
 @tom666: I am currently looking to replace one of my rides and I’m considering buying new (I usually try to find a good deal on the buy/sell). I hear a lot about over stock and urgency to sell, but I do not see it reflected in prices. Any thoughts on why so many companies or LBSs seem to be keeping prices so high despite all this chatter about inventory and slower sales? Especially in a world where so much can change in a couple years. A 2021 model vs a 2023 model may mean the difference between some things like in-frame storage or adjustable headset cups which are almost standard on new rides.
  • 6 0
 @gmiller720: In the UK you can find some great deals at the moment. My buddy just bought a 2022 Specialized Enduro Expert 50% off. Nukeproof are doing 30-40% off. Santa Cruz are doing 20% everything and the 5010 has just gone to 40% off.

The stock situation in Canada and the desperation from dealers might be different. You might also find a lot of local bike shops landed the stock at top dollar and are reluctant to sell for no/low profit, even if that is the right thing to do at the moment.

I bet if you shop around online you can find some deals at the moment.

www.stifmtb.com/collections/santa-cruz-5010 40% off SC

www.evanscycles.com/brand/specialized/enduro-comp-2022-mountain-bike-910046#colcode=91004608 40% off Spesh

www.chainreactioncycles.com/p/nukeproof-reactor-275-comp-alloy-bike-deore-2022 40% off Nukeproof
  • 1 0
 @gmiller720: THIS- ive been looking for a bike for awhile and you'd think prices would reflect the market but nope. Someone on the marketing team has been slacking.
  • 10 3
 @mkul7r4: getting downvoted despite the fact 80% of pink bikes comments are people complaining about the results of unregulated capitalism
  • 1 0
 @tom666: thanks for the links! 50% off an enduro expert is worth pouncing on!
  • 6 9
 @mkul7r4:

Overregulated capitalism destroys everything.
  • 4 0
 @tom666: i spent the last 2 years managing stores (ski winter/bike summer) for a company that got sold out to a mega-corp a few years back. this year my store (along with multiple others under same ownership) had their best financial years on record, and then proceeded to have our operating costs cut to make up for deficits within other parts of the corporation. i've witnessed this shit first hand man, this is what happens following corporate takeover.
  • 1 0
 @tom666: i really do wish people would stop showing me the 5010 at 40% off... I've just bought a 2023 Session and can't afford another bike !!!!
  • 1 0
 @weeksy59: Haha mate I know! I've got a 2022 Session 9 and 3 other bikes and I don't need this temptation right now!
  • 23 0
 Jack Moir has it right in the last Downtime Podcast www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNju3wrhFdw

You build the story of the race with snippets of racing and interviews with the riders, then reseed the final stage so current leader is last off and you produce / broadcast that stage the same they do Quallies now. This creates the story, and the last stage should end on a nail biter. They mix the top 15 women ahead of the top 30 men in the final stage and then you have a 45 rider race to cover over an hour and a half. It doesn't need the whole course covered, but when has that stopped Crankworx or RedBull previously?

It would be 1000x better than they have right now, and brands will actually have some bang for their bucks.
  • 22 2
 Current prices of bikes is not realistic will affect the industry in immeasurable ways in the future. The business model is ridiculous, why can no one sell the bottom specd bike with factory forks beats me. Many of my friends refuse to buy a new bike because there are other things to do in life than pay for mountain bikes.
  • 12 2
 Bird are good for speccing Deore with factory/ultimates. That's what I did. (except for the cassette is XT). I actually prefer the Deore shifters to the higher range ones - remind me of old 9sp soft action. You end up with a fast bike for £3500.
  • 12 1
 Idk if you know this, but bikes are perfectly rideable without the top of the line forks.
  • 8 1
 @Bro-LanDog: Whaaaaaat!! No No No... I refuse to believe this! I need my Gold 38's to ride! lol

It's true though, everyone googles 'what's the best...' when none of us really need it. Remember when we had full rigid bikes with long stems and cantilever brakes? Still had the same amount of fun!
  • 2 2
 @Longrider: Yep just go cheap and upgrade if needed. Dentists think money can buy skill
  • 1 0
 @Longrider: yep, just purchased a new bike with entry spec and Fox 34 performance "performs" very well as does the performance rear shock. Shifting and braking are also fine. Wheels and tires however are a different story.
  • 20 1
 The way to keep being signed by a factory team seems to be having a lot of social media followers. Race results don't seem to matter these days frustratingly.
  • 27 0
 GT said that Wyn didn't have to ride, as long as he was doing Wyn TV.
  • 33 1
 @glasvagas: That's fair enough for Wyn, he has made Wyn TV what it is off his own back, and it's very popular.
  • 15 0
 I will give you an example from some years ago with GT:

Lot of social media followers. -> Wyn

Race results -> Maes

Who would probably get recognized? Invited to events? Who traveled the world and social media with his sponsors everyday? Delivered content. Ambassador to the sport and brand.
Which of the two people and riders can relate to?

Who would you want to invest on?
easy!
  • 12 0
 @t-stoff: The problem is that without Maes and all the other racers Wyn doesn't have much of a show.
  • 16 0
 Best of luck to Katy!!! I wonder if the EDR Cup feeds now are so much higher that is forcing teams out, IMHO the change from EWS to EDR as not been good at all. Never understood why the changed, they did promised better coverage etc but it as been an epic failure.
  • 7 0
 When you have to scroll down past 800 comments before finally seeing someone wishing Katy good luck. This is the PB version of being 'ratioed'.
  • 13 1
 The WRC should be an easy standard to meet when it comes to coverage. excellently edited recap/highlights videos long in length, that is really the best way to cover this sport. Discovery focus too much on social media digestible content (understandable) which even then is lacking, particularly as the edr doesn't have a dedicated instagram page.

The youtube content they do put out is lackluster, with even colour management in editing seemingly being missed.

If they produced more interviews, gave more focus to the locations where the races took place and put out one well edited highlight video after each race they could create a media output which highlights the cool locations of each race, the difficulty and length of the days and which give more opportunity to up and coming riders to be visible.

I would think that discovery is giving the current team tasked with covering the edr a shoe string budget, and not putting the right people in charge. Jack moir’s videos prove how even one filmer can create engaging content about an entire days race, and yet a multi billion media empire fails to capture this sport in all its glory, as such smaller teams, ‘slower’ riders and non english speaking racers all fail to reap any of the exposure rewards there teams demand.
  • 3 0
 "WRC Promoter GmbH is jointly owned by Red Bull Media House and KW25 Beteiligungs GmbH.[18] Through the Red Bull Content Pool, WRC provides news, articles and images for professional news and media outlets free of charge." quote from Wikipedia.

The RMBH stake in the commercial rights of the WRC is a not-insignificant part of the reason the coverage is so good.
  • 2 1
 WRC would have a budget that is 10 x the budget of MTB. Easier to do a better job when there is more money available.
  • 27 17
 It is not bike sales. The general bike buying public does not care about Enduro racing. Sorry, but it is true. There is an attraction to DH, even amongst regular riders due to the sheer insanity of it. XC is relatable. Road riding is relatable. Enduro just is not. I am ready for my down votes.
  • 16 0
 All the racing in the end is about bike sales. Those companies all make a living by selling bikes or bike parts and bike sales are way down right now. That’s the bottom line.

I’d say enduro is just as relatable and cool as anything else, the problem is it much harder than other disciplines to portray well on screen.
  • 2 0
 Very true. DH has an attraction to people who do not even bike (take my wife and my brother as an example). Wouldn't know how to sell "Enduro" to them.

I think Enduro works if you have a Richie Rude or other multiple race winners and then can say your Enduro bike is successful because it was raced successfully by racer X. But that only works for the top of the top racers.
  • 4 0
 For mountain bikers I'd say Enduro is relatable, it's the same as what a lot of people do every day. Go to a venue, do 5 or six laps as fast as they can on the hardest trails they can manage pedalling up between trails.
  • 3 5
 I don't know any regular type riders that even follow DH. Only former racers.
  • 3 3
 @mtb-journal: i can only refer to me and my friends, but freeride is where it‘s at … noone cares about enduro or dh, but everyone and their girlfriends watch red bull rampage
  • 3 0
 Enduro is way more relatable to me as a regular trail rider than DH. That being said I still like watching DH more just because the format/coverage is better. But I enjoy enduro bike checks much more because they're closer to what I ride as a mortal.
  • 3 0
 Yep, I agree - but the big handicap of Enduro is that it's almost impossible to watch in the current format. The action is good - but it's spread out too much and therefore inaccessible
  • 9 0
 @Stokedonthis: Meh - any competition requiring style judges is more beauty pageant than sport
  • 6 1
 From my sofa analysis, I bet a social media stars probably offers more product exposure than a factory racing team. I imagine a lion share of sales is based off of trail bikes (130-140mm range) for most companies. No disrespect to any professional racer, especially the ones who grind it out every year for the love of it, but I bet 99% of the people walking into a bike shop, looking to buy a trail bike, gives ZERO consideration if a particular brand participates in WC racing or even cares about it. Outside of product development reasons, I imagine ROI on racing programs is becoming quite questionable for many companies.
  • 1 0
 @NuckaMan: My sofa agrees with yours - most people want a bike that goes up hills and down, can handle some moderate chunk, and will last a few years. Abracadabra! A 130-140mm trail bike just as you described.
Now all we need is a sport that reveals and amplifies its special charms.
  • 7 0
 @GZMS: enduro is way more relatable than downhill, it’s just boring to watch
  • 1 0
 Agreed 100%. Plus the races are harder to cover given its format. The value it's just not there, sadly.
  • 1 0
 @jmhills the question is WHY don't the public care... why when that's what many of us ride, both in terms of bikes and in terms of riding.. Very few of 'us' get up at the weekend and his the Les Gets WCDH track, we're more likely found at BikeParkWales hitting something that's very much Enduro based in terms of trails. So why can't we as a group care, relate, accept and view.. It's either the fact that teh racing isn't exciting, which it IS... or the coverage isn't 'right' which it isn't...
However, that doesn't mean i know the answer of how to cover a massive multi stage event well. But whatever it is... isn't what we're seeing now.
  • 1 0
 @weeksy59: " . . . how to cover a massive multi stage event well".
That's your problem right there - and it's a big problem.
  • 1 0
 @weeksy59: I have to argue that many of us do not ride anything like enduro stages. When you look outside of the PB/ Vital bubble, and I am sure that the sales back this up, a majority of riders are riding XC and trail (130-140mm) bikes.
  • 1 0
 @jmhills: I’d love to know the actual numbers. I spent the last four years living in Oregon and our local trails were literally enduro race tracks every year. Tons of riders and almost all on enduro bikes for good reason. There are a whole lot of riders out west (US and Canada) who have worthy trails.
  • 11 1
 The issue is the total lack of transparency from all stakeholders!
Next: Watch the recaps of the 2016-2019 EWS season, its like a Netflix series. Why could a small team pull it off and a large team now seams to not know how to do a race summary - that’s actually about the race and not the lame repetitive „humor“ from the commentary guy?!
Dont even begin with the locations and stages. They were amazing. True World Series. Now it’s repeating the same locations every year on „legendary“ stages… yawn.
Riders need to strike. Otherwise there will be no more races or teams to stay on.

„Fear will make you hesitant and hesitation will make your biggest fears come true.“
  • 9 0
 I think it is a weird paradox that the racing discipline that most reflects the riding style and choice of bike that has become most popular with the general public in most places, has such a poor following and therefore is a struggle for sponsors to commit to.

At the same time, whilst the race broadcast/coverage is poor, in my opinion, I can sort of understand why- no matter what your feelings are of the current broadcaster/promoters, it is a difficult sport to cover- a race takes an entire day, potentially covers a massive geographical area and there is large number of riders out on the course simultaneously but not in the same place at the same time.

Don't know how to solve it, but I think it's something that needs to be solved, unlike DH which was perfectly fine before ESO got their hands on it, maybe some changes to the racing format would be welcomed to try and attract better sponsorship?
  • 1 0
 How do they film rally events? What about Skiing? sort of the same format
  • 1 0
 @d-dog123: Skiing is the same as DH racing surely - nothing like EDR.
  • 11 0
 Pink bike should sign Katy, start an enduro team, make some decent content. Enduro is sick, it would be such a shame to let it die
  • 9 0
 I get all of my DH and Enduro coverage from pinkbike and youtube because I do not have the time or interest to watch events live. I would happily accept lower grade camera coverage if it lead to a 30 minute "recap" episode released 24 hours after the event. For heaven's sake I followed WRC rallying through the 80's and that was all 20 second competitor interviews, handi-cams at interesting points around the stages, and a post-event scripted narrative.
Enduro could pay Jack Moir and Wyn Masters to find a handful of mates who could document a race and I'm sure competitors would contribute POV footage if they knew it was for self-promotion. "on-board with Morgane Charre... " would give her and Pivot a chance for a banner across the bottom of the viewer's screen and viewers would still associate race action with certain riders and brands so sponsor dollars get well spent.

The sport grew from successful grass-roots events. Return to your roots.
  • 2 0
 30 minute "recap" episodes released less than 24 hours after the event are already available on youtube.

youtu.be/Ux6a5c6hqcs?si=A5tnM2klP1ODCvoe

Pinkbike does not share them. Assume because its produced by a competitor.
  • 8 0
 That's pretty sad, I hope she will find another spot somewhere else.
Some rumours say that GT will stop its DH factory team as well, do you have some insights there?
  • 6 0
 That’s the rumor. Mainly came from Sven straight up saying that all GT riders in the pits are looking for new rides next year when on the Moving the Needle podcast.

He slightly backtracked and said “that’s the rumor” but when he first stated it, he stated it as a known fact.

If so, it’s crazy as the DH team is having solid results on the new bike and with current crop of riders.
  • 6 0
 If I owned a mtb company I wouldn't both with an enduro team but would have a DH on the basis that while the gravity section of the market buy more enduro bikes I would guess that they watch far more DH coverage and my DH team should be quite capable getting some shots for marketing on the enduro bike. Katy Winton, currently at 17th overall in the EWS, hard to believe that she's driving a lot of sales. For a brand more towards the budget end of the market spending a lot on enduro race teams probably doesn't make a lot of sense, still, sad for her
  • 4 0
 Exactly. As a brand you could run a DH team and have those guys put out a couple edits once in a while slaying on your enduro bikes out having a good time and you're set for half the money. It's unfortunate for the riders but it's business. I hope someone is able to come up with a way to cover enduro in a way that brings it to life and really showcases how great these riders are but until then this is probably a losing battle.
  • 1 0
 especially given that actually selling the bikes seems to not really be enforced, so there's very little need to put a big investment into a production run.
  • 6 0
 Enduro is for riders, not profits.
If the UCI cannot provide/arrange/partner with decent media companies, then capitalism will kill the “product” I still see way higher attendance at the regional enduro races tho.
And the dh fan base is a steady rock. Those of us that love it love it, much like car racing. It’s not football. But it’s still easier to package and produce than “trail riding with full faces all day”

That said: a good media COMPANY should have no problem producing a good “product” out of enduro. It’s the players that are dropping the ball, not the ball’s fault.

Oh wait. Maybe it is Ball’s fault.
  • 7 0
 Katy's honesty is always refreshing but sponsors want results or content. Look at Wyn, GT holding onto him for his great wyntv not for results and sadly there is neither of these this year from Katy
  • 14 9
 She is the first of a long list of riders without rides for next year

Pinkbike now dropping their coverage with no preview of the weekend ?? It is after all the last round with 2 titles to be won ...Should never have been put in the same venues as other branches. Enduro is unique given the geographical area it covers in a day.

Come on ESO save the sport you created.
  • 33 3
 Not sure where you got the idea Pinkbike is dropping its coverage? I'm working on the primer right now for today and have a form guide and breakdown of who can win the overall coming tomorrow.
  • 6 15
flag somebody-else FL (Sep 14, 2023 at 5:11) (Below Threshold)
 @edspratt: exactly. Coming on Friday when people are making riding plans, watching F1 coverage, figuring out where to drink after work etc etc etc. There’sa reason all the EDR posts here don’t have a ton of comments, views and whatnot. That goes into the team budget metrics too.
  • 7 2
 Enduro racing....always been a bit of a joke from a marketing perspective. They tried telling us "but these are the actual bikes you buy! unlike DH bikes and XC weapons"....doesn't matter, the coverage has always been rubbish, personalities bland for the most part. It's just a money pit.
  • 5 0
 I have a feeling it's going to be a sad winter for a lot of "pro" riders. Not that they were really making a living anyway. I guess the youtube/social media content will be going crazy as if it wasn't already. Freeride for everyone... What happened?
  • 6 1
 Enduro has lost its relatability to the average rider. Enduro bikes are now mini DH bikes with 170+ travel, mixed wheels, etc. Look back just a few years and Enduro bikes were still "normal" compared to today. I personally don't need a 170-180mm travel, and the 130-160mm travel bikes are so good that unless you're lucky to have huge elevation changes where you ride. Selling out to the UCI certainly didn't help things at all, and the Discovery+ fiasco made it even worse.
  • 2 0
 Rhys and his Druid v2 would like a word...
  • 1 1
 @shredddr: with is 170 for and 160 rear linkage
  • 8 1
 Bummer.

Btw: Did any info surface why Noga Korem and GT parted ways earlier this year?
  • 9 2
 Yeah she slated the bike on a podcast, GT then paid the podcast not to publish and sacked her!
  • 3 0
 @bikeridingaled: really?
It’s as good a reason as all the other conspiracies that abounded at the time.
  • 2 0
 @bikeridingaled: what? For real? Any sources or just rumors?
  • 3 2
 @LikeBikeMikeHike @cypher74 i ride with a lad who knows the person who runs the podcast. He wouldn't tell me any more info! Don't know how true or not it is, but he's a good chap who's not one to mess about or chat sh1t for attention.
  • 5 0
 @bikeridingaled: She should probably have won a half dozen WC like Marc Marquez before she tried that approach
  • 1 0
 @tigerfish50: haha absolutely!!
  • 4 0
 Lets face it, MTB is not a poor man's sport and unless you wanna be Davy Faffer who takes his budget Halfords bike around the local walking trails, it's a REALLY expensive sport to get into. That's just from the average consumer point of view, imagine the money that goes into keeping a race team afloat for a full season. Accommodation, flights, food, fees, wages, fuel. etc etc etc. And I haven't even gotten onto how wasteful it is (like it or not, it's not an environmentally friendly sport).

I'd say in the not too distant future it'll only be the very richest bike companies who are able to afford running a team, there ain't gonna be many left!
  • 4 0
 I've asked on here before. How many of you actually buy a bike based on race results? Likes and follows don't put money in the bank. This particular athlete rides for GT, when was the last time you saw a GT on the trail? The "I'm a racer/influencer, you should sponsor me" system is flawed.
  • 3 0
 Valid point, however having sponsored athletes racing their bikes is not all about marketing.
How do you make a good bike without feedback you can trust?

Pro athletes can be very useful in developing new bikes.
Leading to better bikes, with better reviews and ultimately more revenue.

I acknowledge that for many athletes it's purely a marketing arrangement but at the top level rider feedback is an important part of their job.
  • 3 1
 Its like all advertising though, it's more subtle than that, people build up a positive view of the brand after seeing them win, seeing their bikes in good edits, and liking their athletes. Would Santa Cruz have such a loyal following for bikes that aren't really great value if they hadn't been sticking their athletes near the top of the podium for the last 20 years?
  • 2 0
 @rambotion2: They are interesting because outside of DH they don’t do racing. There’s no factory enduro team for instance. What they did do though was sponsor enduro events rather than riders which was a clever way of getting the exposure and probably allot cheaper
  • 12 7
 Katy is active in media only when she needs something. Like 2 years ago was the same story, she needed a new team. She should use the media actively all the time and create value for her sponsors.
  • 10 2
 You clearly aren't interacting with her content then. Check her insta account. Posts every few days or so. Plenty of content.
  • 6 2
 Her results have been pretty poor of late to I don't think it's any surprise she hasn't got a ride as a racer. Sounds like the rest of the GT are in the same position. I found it odd that she did the whole sob story coming off Trek, then realised she needed to build her online presence. Her vlogs were good and she came across as very genuine and likeable, but then they completely dropped off once she got on GT.
  • 5 0
 Enduro racing sucks to watch but it is the best test bed for the products people actually buy. DH racing is the best to watch but not many people buy the bikes they ride. Bit of a conundrum
  • 3 0
 I don't get why people are blaming coverage of the sport as the reason for bike sales being really low. The cost of an entry level mtb is at £1000 nowadays.
With the cost of living and the rising prices of everything (bikes included) its no surprise that teams and racers are pulling out. A sprt that was very much for fun is slowly turning elitist, not by choice but from the world economy right now. Its not going to change anytime soon and a lot of racers are going to find themselves in similar position soon.
Prime example is the specialized adventure racers. I think one racers funding got cut mid race!!
  • 2 0
 Does the budget of a world race team makes any real impact on a massive brand that already belongs to an even bigger conglomerate? I am guessing ballpark figures here and hope to be corrected/educated, but for a brand like GT how much is the budget for their factory teams? $2mil per year tops? They don't have any major player with a half a million pay check, so the money goes mostly in travel, accommodation, insurance and shipping stuff around the globe. I hate to think that they always resort to cut in what creates a culture and a following of the sport like racing does.
  • 2 0
 Current Enduro format makes decent TV coverage almost impossible - AKA cost prohibitive. Without TV coverage it's always going to remain a niche sport. Spectating is also going to provide a limited experience of the action. I suspect Enduro is doomed unless the format changes. The only solution I can visualize is several laps of an extreme XC course run as a time trial, with riders setting off at 10 second intervals as they do at the Isle of Man TT races. Mass starts won't work due to the probability of crashes causing gridlock for following riders on singletrack sections. Time controls would allow spectators to follow the race narrative, while getting several chances to observe the contestants at their preferred viewpoint. With less ground to cover, the chances of TV coverage would be improved. Perhaps enduro riders themselves can offer alternative solutions. I'd like to hear them.
  • 3 0
 and yet IoM and WRC manage to get decent coverage on events that span considerable more distance, although terrain for logistics/transport of equipment may be easier to deal with. I dunno where WRC's budget comes from, team budgets obviously come from a bigger pot than bicycles, but IoM is not a cash cow, nor are most of the riders. the effort is exponentially more money (call it... 30x more to build/run a superbike than a mtb, and then most of the bigger teams have 3-4 bikes for the different classes of various levels of cost). if they can somehow get that done, it seems absurd that there aren't stage recaps and filming being produced. shit man, put 10 dudes on each stage with some wind cancelling mics and gopros on chinese gimbals, and a couple to interview people at the top and bottom of each, then make a produced show after the fact put out 5 days later. still 10x better than what you're currently getting.
  • 3 0
 @Sweatypants: In our age of instant gratification, 5 days is an eternity
  • 3 0
 @tigerfish50: that's true, but better than no gratification. i'd still watch even if i already knew the winner, but also maybe I'm a minority I dunno.
  • 2 0
 @Sweatypants: I'd watch too, but we're probably a minority.
Bottom line - it's undeniable current format of the sport is difficult to market.
What's also undeniable is that there are many fine machines between XC gazelles and DH bison. I have one myself - and it shouldn't be beyond some MTB Einstein to devise a sport to show off the qualities of these Do-It-All thoroughbreds.
  • 1 0
 @Sweatypants: IOM TT media is part government grant funded, offsetting sone of the production costs (cited in SportsPro as upwards of £10M) and then they sell over 200k streaming passes at £19 or so.

So yeah, great coverage - but with government funding and around £4M of subscription income (even before dponsorship & syndication rights).

www.iomttraces.com/latest/news/rapid-audience-growth-for-tt

TT fans seem happy to pay. Why are MTB fans different?
  • 2 0
 I'd love to know the business logic behind how big surges in demand are handled in this industry. I think we can be quick to say " they shouldn't have expanded teams, product development marketing etc" - but I'm sure its not so simple, could be a mistake to hold back while the rest of the industry is surging ahead , gaining market share. I know this same thing happened in the tech industry , where companies overhired & then had to cut back. Whats the right way for a bike company to navigate a surge like COVID demand ?
  • 5 1
 I love riding enduro stuff, I love racing enduro. I haven't watched a EWS in years. The coverage is terrible. Really shit for the riders that the sport is so badly managed.
  • 2 0
 I wish Katy all the best .... she will be fine. I feel like this is a good thing in a way.... something better will come out of this, not just with Katy but all riders that are facing a similar situation. Maybe a race circuit that doesn't involve UCI or any other organization such as that. Start doing old style privateer type races. Enduro isn't dead, it just needs a reboot.
  • 2 0
 Enduro has slowly been turning into DH-but-longer, essentially. I can see why interest has flagged.

That said, the whole idea of the format matches up better with participation driven funding (think triathalon) if you want to support full time pros. Make the courses rideable by average Janes n' Joes and make the event a huge festival/party, and promoters and pros can both make a living, if done right.
  • 4 0
 It's a hard sport to have a prolonged career in, succesful or not, always has been and i guess always will be.
  • 4 0
 For now, 6 enduro team, 4 dh team and 5 XCO team will shot down. Fasten your seatbelt...
  • 2 1
 The reality is racers need to do more to keep the companies happy and social media is the way to do it. Chances are we would all recognize some mediocre youtuber then a enduro or DH racer. Unless there wearing a red bull lid.
  • 3 0
 Hurr durr, tough sales environment … didn‘t they just have multiple years of record sales?
  • 14 1
 All that cash went straight into the CEO's nostrils
  • 3 1
 Well if you don't get results then you can't expect to get sponsored full time...there are many more better racers who are getting results who deserve the sponsorship instead
  • 3 0
 gt going from "good times" to bad times
  • 7 0
 "Gary Turner"
  • 4 1
 Their broken frame moment is exposing their broken company
  • 3 4
 Sad days... influencers and onlyfans "content creators... read... porn" make more money that a pro racer.

Sorry to say but EWS since beginning was a failing format... great riders strugglin to race in worst coverage and tough to say.. but enduro bikes are market dead.

Roadbikes.. gravel...xc...full xc are still strong.

Who want to pedal a DH bike... nobody... and on the alps.. i see noboy riding enduro bikes.

Ebikes are enduro present and future... make sense.
  • 2 1
 and how many of us choose our bikes based on what successful racers ride?

I couldn’t tell you what any pros ride, but I can tell you why I ride what I ride:

Zerode Taniwha because it’s one of the best FS Pinion bikes you can get.
  • 1 0
 You’re right, ebikes are indeed the present and future of gravity MTB. There’s no real way to create a racing format around e-bikes that isn’t hokey AF tho as the motor is just a means to get up the hill and nobody cares who climbs faster with a motor. Maybe just allow motors in EWS but don’t bother timing the ups? Or not. Huge respect for the EWS racers but if everyone at home is gonna have a motor in a few years it’s kinda weird.
  • 2 0
 Hey Pikebike! How much do you sink into running a "Factory" team per year? Are you going to lose sponsorships?
  • 3 0
 Shame, get all my enduro coverage on MoiMoi TV youtube.
  • 2 1
 "brands try to manage a tough sales environment???" What happened to record sales from these last few years? Bikes cost like cars and they can't make money?
  • 1 0
 You only make money on a batch of bikes if you sell them, regardless how much they cost.
  • 4 4
 Noga Korem was ditched by GT not long ago.Just saying. at least by what was written about it back then, it seemed they didn't treat her right.
  • 1 0
 Hard truth one looks at an average Enduro rider and think yes I want that bike.
  • 2 2
 Not watched it for a couple of years now. Never watched the DH either. cost of living and bike prices going through the roof I'm not surprised they are cutting back.
  • 1 0
 I wonder what percentage of mountain bikers watch racing? I'll be honest about the only race I watch each year is Hardline.
  • 3 1
 atherton bikes should pick her up for a season
  • 1 0
 Soo sad to hear this about Katy. I wish you all the very best and can’t wait to see what you do next
  • 1 0
 Im really into bikes, but I kind of have very little idea who this is… enduro coverage sucks. Sorry KW.
  • 1 0
 Lift your chin up. This will also come to pass and you’ll be back in no time.
  • 2 0
 Gota pay hans salary
  • 3 0
 He's probably sold most gt in there history.
  • 1 0
 Better go get you a job now…..
  • 1 0
 Good Times? More like bad times it seems...
  • 1 0
 All they had to do was model it from the wsl..pro surfing.
  • 2 1
 PON doing PON things
  • 2 1
 Mad love for you Katy!
  • 1 1
 Fuck UCI and Discovery
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