A Deeper Look at Lal Bikes' Supre Drive Patent

Dec 7, 2021
by Seb Stott  

When Cedric Eveleigh told us about his Supre Drivetrain which splits apart the two functions of derailleurs (shifting gears and tensioning the chain), thereby dramatically reducing the chances of breaking derailleurs on the trail, we wondered why nobody had thought of that before. But in a sense, they had.


Cedric himself showed me this patent from 1937, which describes a drivetrain with an arm that selects the gear on the cassette, with a separate tensioner arm and pulley tucked behind the chainring. So why haven't we been using drivetrains like this since the late thirties? And what specifically is it that allowed Eveleigh's design to be granted this patent, which was just published? I got on the phone with Cedric to find out.


What's new?

The problem with the design from 1937 is that there isn't much space for the tensioner arm to move clockwise before it hits the upper chain span. That means the arm can only take up so much slack in the chain, so it was only compatible with very narrow-range cassettes, and certainly wouldn't work with modern wide-range cassettes combined with suspension systems that require even more chain growth.

The Supre drivetrain works with modern cassettes because it's designed around a high-pivot and idler suspension design. The idler pulley moves the upper chain span out of the way, making room for a tensioner arm with a much wider range of motion.

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Even so, Supre Drive requires the idler pulley to be positioned further forwards than on most high-pivot bikes to make room for the tensioner arm. And when we first reported on the Supre Drive, we showed a prototype bike that was only capable of running a 10-45t 11-speed cassette. But the drivetrain pictured above accommodates a 10-51t 12-speed cassette, which will make it more appealing to the mass market and therefore to bike brands.

This requires the idler pulley to be even further forward, but as the Supre drivetrain is aimed at OEMs who want to design bikes around it, Cedric sees this as a positive rather than an issue. "Fortunately, moving the idler pulley forward has the advantage of reduced cross-chaining angles," Cedric explains. "This reduces drag and wear, especially in the highest and lowest gears." It's certainly true that cross-chaining significantly increases drivetrain drag at the most extreme angles, so increasing the length of the upper chain span should help alleviate this problem.

Cedric's patent stipulates that the chain remains above the "clearance line", labelled here with number 121.

Eveleigh's patent application was granted on the basis that it was a novel combination of the frame-mounted tensioner, rear derailleur and high-pivot idler, plus a stipulation that his design kept the lower chain line above what's called the clearance line - a line drawn from the bottom of the chainring to the bottom of the largest cassette sprocket.

Cedric thinks the patent might have been granted without this stipulation, and patent documents are usually designed to be as vague as possible to keep the inventors' options open, but Cedric added this detail to make his application more watertight and because he couldn't foresee the need to ever make a drivetrain with a lower chain clearance, since getting the fragile bits higher up off the ground is kind of the point.

"It's possible that I might have been able to get that claim accepted by the examiner with just the tensioner separate from the derailleur and the idler pulley," Cedric explains. "But just for the reason of obviousness and to avoid unnecessary lawsuits [laughs] I decided to narrow my claim a little bit. When you go to lawyers and ask them to write a patent application, their reflex is to make the claim as broad as possible .... it could be applied to a lawnmower or something ... they're just trying to make as much money as possible. I'm motivated to just protect what I invented as it's specific to bikes. That's along the lines of why I narrowed the claim to have the chain remain over that clearance line because that makes it a bit more specific to what I actually contributed."

The brass tube on the right contains a coil spring and a hydraulic damper which control the motion of the tensioner arm via a cable.

Clutch development

In our conversation, Cedric went into more detail on his damper design for the tensioner arm. In most MTB derailleurs, the clutch (which is a form of damper) uses a one-way ratchet to apply friction via sliding surfaces to resist the movement of the cage in the forward direction. As we all know, this greatly reduces chain slap, noise and dropped chains, but it can make it harder to shift, particularly when moving into a larger sprocket. This means the clutch friction has to be a tradeoff between shifting performance and chain slap. Also, this test from Cycling Tips showed that the clutch in Shimano derailleurs can temporarily increase chain tension after shifting into a larger sprocket, and this measurably increases drivetrain drag in some situations.

An early version of the Supre drivetrain used a torsion spring and a one-way sliding friction damper in the tensioner arm, as you'd find in the cage in a derailleur. Cedric was struggling to find the right amount of friction to allow for consistent shifting while also providing enough resistance to reduce chain slap. His solution was to do away with the sliding friction damper ("clutch"), with its high static friction, and replace it with a speed-sensitive hydraulic damper, like you'd find in a shock.

That means the resistance during slow movements like shifting is very low, but the resistance to faster movements associated with chain slap is very high. According to Eveleigh, that means there's less need to fine-tune the friction because there's much more damping bandwidth that works for both shifting and chain slap - you can have your cake and eat it too.

Another innovation is the spring which tensions the chain via the tensioner arm. In a conventional derailleur, shifting into the larger sprockets winds up a torsion spring in the cage's pivot, which increases the chain tension because the spring provides more force.
In the patent, the tensioner arm is shown connected to a spring in a cartridge (in this older version of the chain tensioner, the damper is in the tensioner arm, but in newer versions, the damper is in the cartridge).

This means the chain tension is significantly higher in the larger sprockets, and more chain tension means more drivetrain drag because chain links under higher tension have more friction when they articulate to pass through the jockey wheels.

In Eveleigh's design, the tensioner arm is driven by a cable that engages with a cam-shaped ramp on the arm with a variable radius - (this article explains a similar concept in more depth). This changes the leverage ratio between the tensioner arm and a linear coil spring in a cartridge that is hidden in the downtube. The change in leverage ratio is engineered to compensate for the increase in spring tension as it is stretched, keeping the chain tension roughly constant through all the gears.

I say "roughly constant" because Eveleigh actually designed the tension to drop off slightly in the larger sprockets (the opposite of a conventional derailleur). Eveleigh reasons that you don't need as much chain tension when you're climbing because chain slap and derailment are less of an issue at slower speeds.

Compared to typical derailleurs, his system has much less chain tension in the low gears, but it also has slightly less chain tension in the high gears. Normally, this would allow the chain to slap about through a larger range of motion, making it noisier and more likely to fall off. But the hydraulic damper is designed to solve that issue by applying more damping force at high speeds than a conventional clutch derailleur. The advantage of lower chain tension is reduced drivetrain drag. This, combined with extra-large jockey wheels and idler pulley, plus smaller cross-chain angles thanks to the longer upper chain span, are designed to minimise the drivetrain drag which is a drawback of idler drivetrains generally.

When asked about the packaging of the spring/damper cartridge, which in its current form is designed to be mounted in the downtube, Eveleigh was understandably tight-lipped. "I can tell you I'm working on a version that's much more compact."
The cam-shaped ramp is engineered to maintain near-constant chain tension throughout the range of gearing.




Production

Cedric told me he is working with "one major mountain bike company, three more nimble local manufacturing companies and a few small scale frame builders." Many of them are currently at the 2D design stage, working out their suspension kinematics around the Supre drivetrain and its unusual idler location.

Cedric says the system is pretty straightforward to design into a bike with a high-single-pivot and the idler connected to the swingarm. He has an information package including 3D models of the chain clearance in each gear, so bike brands can design their bikes to fit around it more or less as they would with a gearbox or e-bike motor. Bike companies who want a different suspension design (such s a four-bar linkage or a frame mounted idler pulley) will have a bit more back and forth with Lal Bikes to make sure it's compatible.

Cedric thinks that one of the more nimble brands with in-house production will likely be the first to market with the Supre drivetrain.

After being unable to buy a single Pinion gearbox for a bike he designed around it in 2012, Cedric says he'll work with anyone who wants to use his system, no matter the scale. "Anyone who wants to can go ahead ... even the kids who are reaching out to me for a high school project, I'm like here are the specs let me know what you come up with."





205 Comments

  • 155 61
 The problem with destroying derailleurs is overstated. Only destroyed 2 in 20 years of riding. Brakes, frames, saddles on the other hand have broken way more often and I’m 145lbs. This design seems way too limiting to frame design and adds complexity (2 extra pullys in the path of the rear wheel). Seems like a good kid with solid intentions so I don’t want to be too critical. A gearbox/derailleur in a box system mounted in the ebike motor position would be a better solution in my mind to improve sprung/unsprung ratio and system durability.
  • 205 3
 *proceeds to blow up a derailleur next weekend*
  • 65 11
 annectotal evidence doesn't work on the broad scheme. I've broke 3 this seasons. I'm pretty sure if we average every rider will be closer to 1 derailleur every two year then 2 in 20 year
  • 95 2
 The problems with derailleurs aren't limited to destroyed derailleurs, but ones that are affected with bent hangers or banged up so they don't shift well. I've yet to destroy a derailleur in 10 or so years of regular riding, but I sure have bent more than a few hangers. And that's annoying. Real annoying. If this invention means more consistent, reliable shifting unaffected by delicate hangers, it's a big improvement.
  • 76 1
 21% of respondents to this poll had broken a derailleur in the past season: m.pinkbike.com/news/poll-whos-breaking-bikes-these-days.html

Even if the true number for all mtbers is half of that, it's still a lot of derailleurs.

And the Supre Drive doesn't have extra pulleys. There's the same number of pulleys as other high pivot bikes like the Norco Range, and there's actually one less pulley than high pivot bikes like the Forbiddens (because of their lower chain guide roller).
  • 28 0
 @Elgaucher: It is always sold as bashing the derailleur into a rock but for me it has been sticks. They can move so unpredictably. Like you roll over with your front wheel and the other end tips into your spokes then two pedal strokes later you have 5 busted spokes and your derailleur is tied in a knot. Now you have the worlds worst scooter.

This happened to me about two miles from home but fortunately it was downhill to get home. Imagine you are on Lord of the Squirrels or biking the Colorado trail. I can see the benefit of protecting the derailleur a bit more than we do now.
  • 5 1
 Yeah I used to blow them up pretty often back in the day, but that was back when 26" wheels, non-shadow rear mechs, and 2x/3x drivetrains with long cage RDs were standard. I think I've killed one RD since switching to 29" and 1x in 2014ish. Realistically I think this layout puts too many constraints on frame design for it to be widely adopted.

OTOH, I think the concept looks really well thought out, and every component here is basically where it needs to be. I'd take this over a draggy gearbox / derailleur-in-a-can system, but I don't wreck enough standard drivetrains to warrant the extra up-front cost (which is probably quite a bit).
  • 6 0
 edit - if we count bent hangers then I've 'broken' a lot of derailleurs though... so maybe he's onto something.
  • 9 0
 Agreed. However, part of why I don't break derailleurs is because a nice one costs a chunk of money and I ride cautiously when there are things on my drive side that might obliterate it. Remember the old XT's that would snap the pin and go flaccid and useless? Glad those days are gone but I still ride with more caution and pick lines based on my awareness of that little expensive/necessary to continue the ride hunk of technology hanging from the rear. A system like this may not do much for derailleur replacements but may change the way we ride...even if just slightly. I'm curious to see where it goes and really supportive of people continuing to try to make the sport a bit better.
  • 3 0
 To counter, I’ve destroyed 2 derailleurs and one chain tensioner in the last 6 months. I’ve never broken a frame, saddle, seatpost, etc. only other part I’ve broken are spokes, a rim, a shock plunger, a fork damper, and a brake lever. Derailleurs and hangers are the one item I damage very frequently.
  • 79 2
 I think it's worth remembering that most of us are experienced riders who have evolved to ride in a way that protects our derailleurs.

I wonder how differently I'd ride if I hadn't ever had to worry about derailleurs—hell I might even like skinnies.
  • 27 0
 @brianpark: you could offer me free derailleurs for life and it wouldn't be enough to make me want to ride skinnies Razz
  • 15 1
 @SkyeSnow: +1000. My GF’s SLX rear derailleur uses havarti cheese as a structural component, and in our rocky terrain that means I’m constantly straightening it to retain somewhat decent shifting
  • 2 1
 @frorider2: best comment lol
  • 2 0
 @brianpark: I.ve got the left chainstay on my bikes armored so I can favor that side in the skinny spots.
  • 5 2
 @SkyeSnow: That is the point of the hanger. replace the hanger not the derailleur.
  • 6 0
 I've broken 2 derailleurs in the last year at gone through at least 4 hangers. I often feel I need to adjust line choice to account for protecting the rear derailleur in rocky terrain. As bikes get longer and longer the rear end cuts in more on turns (like a trailer behind a car) and as they get more capable we lean the bikes over more through rough corners. I think this development is fantastic
  • 4 0
 I think a benefit not mentioned in the article is better suspension dynamics and drivetrain wear. I think people underestimate the effects to the suspension when the chain is whipping around. If you watch the hucks to flat closely you can see a lot of chains touching the ground.
  • 1 0
 @vapidoscar: here here !!!!!
  • 2 0
 There are hangers out there that are so soft you don't even need to crash to bend 'em. Just shift while pedaling in anger and they'll be out of alignment. Yeah, I know, don't do that, but sometimes that's the demands of the trail you're on.
  • 1 0
 @brianpark: no shame in riding a fatty
  • 2 0
 anyone here destroyed a next crankarm though ...answers on a postcard to im the weak link in the system
  • 5 0
 @cedric-eveleigh:
Cedric, to me one of the best aspects of your design is the constant chain tension that's better optimized for a given gear. How come you haven't decided to make that primary point in terms of the positive effect on suspension performance it will have. Was that more of a marketing decision?

For me that's what has I'm sold on for your drivetrain. Not breaking derailleurs is just the icing.
  • 2 0
 ive broken 3 in the past 4 months.
  • 1 0
 @frorider2: I'd argue SRAM is worse.. like warmed up Havarti Cheese. My partner's 12spd GX got bent slightly (and I mean, slightly) by a rotting, dead AF bit of wood (she came to a halt in a matter of feet) and it's not been right for months. Slung my old battered XT 11spd on there with a new cassette n shifter and works like a dream Wink
  • 8 2
 The argument for rear derailleurs that hang down from the frame is completely destroyed when you imagine how stupid it would be to mount it that way on a motocross bike. It's an unnecessary failure waiting to happen, plus you run through some tall grass or bump a rock and all of a sudden your rear derailleur is out of adjustment. This design is probably the best short term solution to the derailleur problem, although I'm still hoping for a gearbox, especially for e bikes. This might be the best design for non e bikes. Mountain bike manufacturers should work to accommodate this design and eradicate the hanging rear derailleur from mountain biking completely. This should be an industry goal by 2025.
  • 5 0
 @pcmxa: If we are listing broken parts, here are my broken parts (not worn out):
* Derailleur
* Derailleur hanger
* Spokes
* Axles
* Chain stay
* Seat rails
* Rims
* Cassette driver
* Chain ring
* Cassette
* Pedals
* Crank arm
* Shifter
I look forward to breaking the rest.
  • 2 0
 I think the primary benefit to this design is the ability for engineers to explore alternate designs. Just as the metric shock lengths allowed for evolution of suspension design, being freed from the typical derailleur chainpath could allow them to explore new suspension kinematics. If that's true, then it might catch on. Hard to know where it'll go, but doesn't make the work any less impressive!
  • 3 0
 @vapidoscar: glad to see that absent from your list are:
Handlebars
Stem
Fork

I’m gonna save a few terabytes and not list everything I’ve broken. This is a very cool drive train concept. Congratulations on the patent. I look forward to seeing it in the wild.
  • 2 0
 Its the same amount of pulleys in any other regular high pivot frame
  • 2 0
 @MonsterTruck: Yes. Those are the ones that scare me.

Ooh. Forgot chains.
  • 1 0
 You're not trying hard enough.
  • 2 0
 @frorider2: The only thing worse than the struggle to find just the right amount of tweak to get your shifting performance back to an almost acceptable (If I just avoid shifting under this condition, or skip that gear....) is trying to tweak someone else's (usually a significant other) and then listening to the inevitable grind/slam/did that just explode? noise of it still sucking and continuing to ruin their experience.
  • 4 0
 Haha, I did smack up 11 deraileurs since 2017. Fucking 1x12 really is the culprit. 1x10, never, 1x11 once but only by a huge crash. 1x12 also is just wonky even if it's not smaked or bend. If my entire drivetrain is covered with mud and I am going for hours it won't shift probably all the time.
  • 1 1
 @cedric-eveleigh: according to the poll the average derailleur gets chopped off a bike every 5 years which is probably in the ballpark of accurate. Sticks, rock strikes, crashes, etc. I really love how other drivetrain options are being developed and the Supre does seem like it could be a good option for a Forbidden/Norco Range type bike. I just feel it won’t be the ideal design for all/most bikes.
  • 1 0
 @brianpark: For such a short trail and usually a 'last run of the day' rip, I've seen Imonator on Fromme claim its fair share Wink
  • 6 0
 @Serpentras: you could whack the F*** Out of a 10 speed and it would still shift fine. I used to work in a shop and hate a bent mech... But now I dream of a 10 speed bike. Fk 12 SPD, really isn't needed
  • 3 5
 @DoubleCrownAddict: You assume this guy is a genius and manufacturers should stop all and adopt this "best short term solution" and we should eradicate the rear der completely and if it doesn't work on a motocross bike ,why on a bicycle then, and it should be an industry goal by 2025,WHEW. Do you hear yourself man? The rear derailleur is not the problem ,but others wanting to force their hairbrained ideas on the rest of us are.
  • 1 0
 @cedric-eveleigh: Especially at the cost for AXS/XT/XTR mechs.

If I was paying 100s of pounds for mechs getting them hidden would be a _really_ good plan.
  • 4 0
 @themouse77: Yes! A broken hangar is not a broken derailleur. It’s meant to be the weak link so it bends before the derailleur breaks. I wonder how many people who say they’ve broke a derailleur actually just bent a hangar, but still take it to the shop cause they don’t know how to fix it.
  • 2 0
 @brianpark: I have been in biking long enough to remember when skinnies were all the rage. I like then and have never busted a derailleurs doing it. I have broken my fair share on rocks and sticks before. Skinnies are nothing to be afraid of try some more of them eventually you will get accustomed to them and won't even think twice.
  • 4 0
 @steviestokes: I had and sold my 1x12 hated it any slight deviation of .5mm anywhere and it shifted like crap. Went to a microshift advent x 10 speed. I will never go back a year in and only had to adjust when I needed a new cable. I like my bikes simple
  • 1 0
 @Elgaucher: That's a great Pinkbike Poll brought to you by Outside+. I am curious to know which one of you is right. I am definitely on the low end. I don't think I have ever broken a derailleur. I ride the North Shore as my local and ride sea to sky often plus whistler bike park. Started riding in 1998. Definitely had bent hangers but not in years. Bent hangers definitely used to be a problem. Used to always ride with an extra one just in case. Haven't bent one in years. Maybe Simmons was right and they are dumbing down the shore?
  • 2 0
 @brianpark: I agree with this completely. I can think of a trails everywhere where I’m thinking “OMG… don’t smash the right side” as I ride through. I can’t help but think I’m limiting myself and how I ride sections as I worry and smashing the RD on something.
  • 1 0
 @spendtimebehindbars: I thought about this comment on my ride today. Luckily I made it out unscathed. As usual ;p
  • 2 0
 @brianpark:you are totally right. I’ve watched my sons, who are great riders, smoke their derailleurs because they lack the years of experience to protect them. They just go for whatever line they think they can ride It’s in our subconscious as riders to protect that area of the bike. We all do it probably without much thought.
  • 1 0
 @SlinkySammy: in reality it won't work that often and even if, you can't shift properly with it for this trip. Unless you change the hanger on the spot.
I had bend hangers and mechs with 1x10 and 1x11 but the difference is they don't go fubar because of it that fast. Most won't give a damn about that.

On 1x12 I need to sneeze to let it run bad.1

@steviestokes true, my nowadays is just 1x10 and my Enduro get a Kindernay gear hub because hwo often not shifting instantly. Or just being dead .
I just had the mud and diet part last weekend too. Was super crisp on the uphill. After the dirt was everywhere on after the downhill and I did pedal to the next mountain the shifting was bad and anfter the second on the way to the last it was horrible. Had to shift in between to get the gears right. After it was clean again it was just crisp as before. Na man it's winter and there will be mud everywhere.
  • 1 0
 @ko-d well at 145lbs I doubt you’d tear off a derailleur if you torqued on it after misaligning it on a rock. Seriously, there’s a huge market for this drive train. Lots of us ride in rocky terrain and don’t want to get stuck in the bush after having too much fun on a descent and snagging our derailleur on something! Feel free to stick with a conventional derailleur!
  • 1 0
 @SkyeSnow: This is a good argument against current technology, but it presupposes this new design doesn’t have it’s own serious, inherent problems. Everyone praising this new idea seems to think it will solve their derailleur woes, without even riding it. If it’s a good improvement, great, but I think it’s a step in the wrong direction. Also, and this is an honest question—isn’t the UDH intended to alleviate the problems of bent hangers?
  • 1 0
 Well said. I don’t think the pain points of current technology are bad enough to warrant a full fledged shift in MTB design. The vocal minority will speak up very loudly on this, but it doesn’t mean they’re right or that their uncharacteristic experiences with derailleurs are actually the norm.
  • 3 0
 You need to ride the North Shore more . Sheered adjustment screws almost every season. Snapped or bent beyond repair cages . North Shore Billet is in the hanger business for a reason - i call them every couple of years because you can only bend a hanger back so many times. Its true - the shore eats bike parts
  • 1 0
 @brianpark: spot on! having ridden gearbox bikes its's great to not think about the derailleur. (didnt do any skinnies)
  • 1 0
 I go through 2 derailleurs a year. Either destroyed or so bent out of shape they are useless.
  • 6 2
 @ko-d Two derailleurs in twenty years is incredibly good going. I think the average is probably more often (I'd say I break a couple per year but then I do ride a fair bit).

As for the derailleur in a box being better, well yes there are advantages. But with reducing unsprung mass, I think that's overstated - swapping from NX to X01 cassette saves a lot of weight but IMO it makes no tangible difference to the suspension. And yes you can keep the derailleur out of the elements but the drive chain is still exposed to mud.

The main problem with them is that you need two chains (one for shifting and one for drive transmission) - the Shimano gearbox patent uses three chains. This adds drag because you have more chain articulation under tension, which IMO confines its use to DH.

Eveleigh's design should have less drag than a conventional high-pivot drivetrain and has the same or fewer parts.
  • 1 2
 This idea has potential, but having build & tested ideas related to this design 15 years ago know is not really new !
Also understand some of the limitations ?
  • 5 2
 @seb-stott: destroyed means garbage, not broken hanger, scuffed or bent cage. I live in the PNW, ride the gnarly trails, used to ride 800h a year and race WC XCO. Now I ride 350h a year and I’ve bent a cage on my SLX 12s recently that bent back no problem. This year I’ve broken 2 saddles, a carbon frame, a carbon rim, 2 shifters, 1 brake, 1 creaky steerer, 2 headsets, then the general wear parts. There are many bike parts that just simply fail under normal use and I feel the derailleur is one of those, but not really more than the others. Coming from a racing background keeping a derailleur attached to the bike is beneficial so I may have learned to ride to ‘save’ my gear.

The Supre looks fine for a Forbidden type rig but again, not really necessary IMO for most applications. Your mileage may vary.
  • 3 0
 @ko-d: i think ive done 5 maybe 6 in 20 years definitely not enough to go out and buy a chunk of complexity like that
  • 1 0
 @ko-d: dunno man I ride maybe 450h if it's a year when I am broken and up to 800 if I am fine.
Last year I only had broken Carbon rim, spoke nippels and spokes, one brake rotor, 1 chain and one chainring.
Destroyed deraileurs 4, AXS included.
  • 2 0
 @vapidoscar: my first broken derailleur was ride on a fire road yea.. my front wheel lunched a rock and it hit my derailleur, freak acident
  • 4 0
 @ko-d: We could argue about how common derailleur breakages are, but I don't think it has to be the most common mechanical problem for there to be a good reason to try and mitigate the risk. I'm not saying it's worth throwing out a perfectly good bike and buying a whole new one, but if you're going to buy a new one anyway, it may as well be more reliable.

As for being more complex, it's no more complex than other high pivot drivetrains, arguably less so given there's no need for a lower roller guide (which most high pivots greatly benefit from even if it's not required).

The system also allows for larger pulleys, lower chain tension and a proper hydraulic tensioner damper, all of which could reduce drag and noise compared to a conventional high-pivot.
  • 5 0
 "Only destroyed 2 in 20 years of riding"

You need to try harder.
  • 1 1
 @ko-d: how many hours of those were without spandex?
  • 1 0
 @brianpark: nah, I’ll never like skinnies. The ones here in the UK were mainly lethal things made from old slimy pallets
  • 3 0
 That's because you ride road and XC bikes
  • 1 0
 @brianpark: When I rode a single speed for a number of years it definitely changed the way I would take right hand corners. I just stopped avoiding things.
  • 2 0
 @vapidoscar: I've never understood how a twig that hasn't got the strength to stay on the tree it grew from can wreck a bike component made from metal so easily. I've had several mechs bent or broken by these wispy buggers.

Please can nobody explain how a twig can wreck a bike, I don't want to know.
  • 1 0
 Ride the rocks more....like really tight stuff
  • 1 0
 @fielonator: I think metal starts bending before twigs snap.

Let me tell you what. Wood is freakishly strong. I once had a low speed OTB where I was trying to crank up a little punchy climb with some stepping stone and put my front wheel between two while shifting my weight forward. The bike kicked out to the right and fell about 8 feet down a small cliff and I tumbled forward coming to a stop when my back hit a tree. It felt like I walked in front of Barry Bonds mid-swing. When I looked at the tree it was at most 2 inches in diameter. I was off the bike and not doing well for about two week and managed to break a shifter. And it was super hard to get the bike back onto the trail.
  • 3 0
 @fielonator: well in my experience, it's usually not just "twig whacks metal". Twigs are smarter than that. They slide into your pulley wheels to sieze up the chain, so that your own pedaling torque yanks the RD backwards. I do not miss living in a twiggy area.

No joke, a couple months ago I had a wispy little twig poke me through a hole in my helmet. I kept rolling and it got wedged in there. Pulled my head backwards and I looped out. Twigs just wanna cause chaos.
  • 2 0
 Not to mention the hassle of destroying one now during production / shipping difficulties. It's a heavy hunk of unprotected external "essential" component. Welcome time to fix this artifact.
  • 1 0
 I've done 3 on two different bikes in this past year alone. Given in a bike coach so I spend a lot more time on the bike that some other people.
  • 2 0
 @SkyeSnow: 12 speed made it even worse with larger cage.. that's the reason I'm running 9-46 11spees...
  • 33 1
 I'm continuously blown away by Cedric's ingenuity. Very cool reading about his development and rationale behind the Supre. That being said I only grasp about half of this technical mumbo-jumbo.
  • 25 1
 Thanks! This level of tech nerdery isn't for everyone, but Seb did a good job of explaining things.
  • 12 0
 He’s like Richard Cunningham except not old and jaded, yet XD
  • 2 0
 @cedric-eveleigh: I watched the video in one of the links from the article, and this is some killer stuff. Congrats on combining your passions for bikes and engineering to do something to make our sport better. Unlike you, I will not do anything to make our sport better, and will continue posting my opinions (for likes) on social media Wink
  • 12 1
 @DizzyNinja: that's about the highest compliment you can give anyone.
  • 1 0
 You said that right, "mumbo jumbo", that's all you need to know.
  • 1 1
 @cedric-eveleigh: There are other problems with derailleur designs, not sorted by your design?
Hope you get a sell-able product as I have prior art on this design!
  • 1 0
 Frustrated by the old saying, can’t fix problems with the logic that created them. Splitting a derailleur still keeps the same parts and introduces new issues. I.e. now you need a frame that can accommodate a clutch tube, routing and a massive rotating appendage to achieve what a derailleur does. Limiting with regards to bike layout and clearance. Would much rather liked to see a cvt style pulley that uses tension to pull the cones together and eliminate the swinging tension and related kerfuffery
  • 1 0
 @usedbikestuff: The only way to have better shifting without serious losses in efficiency is to have chain & drive parts in sealed environment, CVT gives you losses in efficency of 20% which would be easily noticeable even on an E- Bike!
  • 1 0
 @aljoburr: missed my point. Just saying that instead of a huge pulley arm to control tension. There are other ways like a spring loaded set of cones and tension would spread them. Bike people like to use existing bike parts to solve bike problems.
  • 16 0
 Levy starts sweating.....
  • 13 2
 Fingers crossed this actually hit's the market. First legit frame with this drivetrain specced on it is my next purchase. Forbidden - please do the V2 Druid with this setup! Dream Bike. SP
  • 9 0
 I don't know if Cedric has already discussed this: the frame pivot locations are limited, yes. But they're less limited for dh bikes with their small range cassettes. Less travel required for the tensioner. It'll be interesting to see where this ends up.
  • 11 0
 His approach to work with anyone willing to take the initiative is awesome. Can't wait to see what design come from this.
  • 8 2
 I'd need to see real data regarding drag, then secondly weight to consider this system. Drag is the BIG one on a bike. Having already watched one riding buddy go from front of the pack pedaling performance to falling off the back when he went HP, efficiency isn't a trade off I'm willing to make for a bike I pedal up.

If Cedric's system can come extremely close to standard derailleur efficiency while having the advantages of a HP bike, while not weighing more than a standard HP bike (which are consistently heavier already) and importantly removing some unsprung weight in the deal, he really has something.

As I've never broken a derailleur it's just not a concern for me but it's appealing to remove it from ever occurring.

GL to him.
  • 1 0
 I'm curious which HP bike your friend is on that slowed them down so much. Also which bike he had prior that they were so fast on.
  • 9 1
 I believe he's about to do efficiency testing, it'll be interesting to see some numbers. Anecdotally in my few moments on the prototype it felt like there was less drag than the Norco and Forbidden HP bikes.
  • 7 0
 @brianpark: That's right, I'm working toward having efficiency measurements done. Design work for the test rig is in progress. I'll publish efficiency numbers comparing the Supre Drive to a conventional derailleur drivetrain with and without an idler pulley. And thanks for the anecdotal report - it's good to hear!
  • 1 0
 It looks like it would be hard to have better efficiency with the amount of chain wrap on both the cassette and chainring, unless the derailleur clutch tension he is removing actually cancels this out in comparison to a current drive chain setup.
  • 9 0
 @mrfish: The amount of chain wrap around a sprocket doesn't affect the amount of drag. A major factor in determining the amount of drag is the pivoting angle of each chain link as it engages and disengages with sprockets. The pulleys in the Supre Drive are big and that decreases the the pivoting angles of the chain links which in turn improves efficiency. For example, check out the "oversized pulley wheel system" for road bikes (this is for improving efficiency).
  • 4 0
 It’s also worth pointing out this system makes more sense for Enduro racing where and smashed der ruins your run but pedaling up to the next stage doesn’t require beating Nino on the climbs
  • 6 0
 @cedric-eveleigh: Regarding the pivoting angle of each link that you mentioned, would it make sense to work out the sum of these angles for the system as a whole, to allow for comparison between the three styles of drivetrain? (the three being conventional, HP, and Supre).
These numbers might help you to make it clearer to people that the total pivoting angle for the chain in your system is not actually that much more than that of some existing systems, despite appearances perhaps suggesting otherwise.
  • 1 0
 @cedric-eveleigh: I too was curious about chain wrap, but more from a shifting performance perspective. I've found that the current crop of 12 speed systems is pretty sensitive to b-gap. It looks like your system operates with no gap in a few circumstances. Is there anything you did to accommodate for this? Is the design dependent on HG II down ramps to work or does it work with SRAM cassettes too?
  • 2 0
 @Paco77: I like how you think! I was wondering the same thing.
  • 7 0
 @Paco77: Good idea. Compared to any bike with a 12-speed Sram or Shimano mtb derailleur, the Supre Drive has 19% less pivoting angle at the two lower pulleys (plus there's pivoting at the chain guide roller on bikes like the Forbiddens). Compared to high pivot bikes like the Norco Range which have an 18t idler pulley, the Supre Drive has 18% less pivoting angle at the idler pulley. Compared to high pivot bikes like the Forbiddens which have a 16t idler pulley, the Supre Drive has 27% less pivoting angle at the idler pulley. Chain link pivoting at the idler pulley matters more because the upper section of chain is highly tensioned during pedalling.
  • 2 0
 @cjeder: The system is designed to work with a specific cassette (10-51t Shimano). That enabled me to optimize it the way I did with no b-limit screw and the derailleur rigidly mounted at two points.
  • 2 0
 @cedric-eveleigh: oh yes it’s not quite as simple as I had thought - of course you are right and the section of the chain that is in tension is having much more of an effect than the other section.
Still though, the Supre numbers compare well with the other designs!
  • 1 0
 @cedric-eveleigh: just curious, will the test rig be some form of power meter measurement device in both crankset and rear hub?
  • 2 0
 @cedric-eveleigh: Efficiency will compare well for clean parts, but will also need to compare design when covered in mud for true comparison?
  • 2 0
 @rifu: The measurement is along those lines of measuring input power and output power, but it's done with a dedicated, bentchtop test rig and not on a bike while someone rides. The power meters are far more accurate (and more expensive) than the ones that are used on bikes while people ride.
  • 2 0
 @aljoburr: Yes, the plan is to measure efficiency for both clean and muddy drivetrain conditions.
  • 1 0
 @cedric-eveleigh: Should really also do same tests with covers over chain & mechs for true scope of design?
  • 5 0
 I'm definitely intrigued. I've hated the finikyness of derailleurs, and have torn one or two off in my time (many more hangers wrecked). I was also a proud user of a Rohloff for years before the bike was stolen. The efficiency losses never bothered me much, though the sprung weight was noticeable. All of those were fine tradeoffs for the durability, ease of shifting, etc. All the things that come from a good gearbox.

This new system looks complicated. But I don't think more-so than a gear box. Is it as reliable? Maybe. Is it more efficient? Probably. Is it lighter? Uh... at least it uses a bog standard cogset. I doubt there will ever be a drivetrain that makes everyone happy.

I see this as an exciting innovation that isn't going to make everyone happy, but will do good to move tech forward.
  • 5 0
 The cheaper alternative is to go back to affordable 10 or 11 speed derailleurs with shorter cages and smaller cassettes. Until recently I had a 11-36t cassette paired with a 28t chainring and it wasn't bad at all. (Admittedly, I don't care how fast I am on the uphills).
  • 3 0
 I'm really interested in the Classified rear hub that's appearing on a few gravel bikes. That, plus something like a 10-34 cassette with less gears and a shorter mech would be an improvement on what we have now. And it could be put on existing frames
  • 2 0
 @mattg95: Had to look these up as I had never heard of them before. Pretty cool stuff!
  • 2 0
 Same here. Holding on to 10sp systems on my bikes. Wouldn't mind a smaller chainring either. The only problem is 26/28t narrow wide chainrings is at least 4-6 times more expensive compared to 32t chainrings (local market price).
  • 1 0
 I had been riding a 34t and 11-36t cassette for like 6 years, and honestly I didn't think anything of it. Just recently went to a 32t oval and a 10-52t on my new bike, and geezus its a lot less work haha. I have yet to use the 52t ring, but the 11th gear is kinda nice. More in the middle of the cassette all around though. I also don't care how fast I go up, but its interesting to skip over the 11sp era and straight into this monster.
  • 1 0
 @rifu: same here. Squats are for free, though.
SRAM steel chainrings are pretty cheap also.
  • 1 0
 @Muckal: time to do it are not, though.

I was brimming with joy when SRAM announced it. Cheaper and last longer! But my local SRAM dealer had other ideas and never thought of stocking it here. So my primary option now are Chinese made alloy chainrings, priced at 5-7 USD (depending on BCD pattern). A lot of options in popular BCD patterns (104, 96 asymmetric, etc.) from 32T to 36T but nothing on 26/28T BCD64 at that price level. Cheapest direct mount 26T chainring I can find is around 20 USD, used, alloy not steel, not SRAM either..
  • 1 0
 @rifu: why not buy online?

The squat thing was more like a joke, but time is made, not had. I know, sometimes it just doesn't work out.
  • 2 0
 @Muckal: the price I listed was from an online marketplace. Most of the seller are located in the same country as me, so there is little to no cost of shipment.

Buying online directly from overseas is an option, but the cost of shipment and customs will add up.

Yeah, if I manage to made some time, I'd rather have it spent on the mountains than in the gym doing leg day.
  • 8 0
 I didn't understand the shallow look at it.
  • 3 0
 Kudos to you Cedric Eveleigh. I think your invention is very innovative, super interesting, and that the advantages of variable chain tensioning and the derailleur and chain up and out of the way of all manner of destructive objects are potentially significant advancements over the current state of things, at least for someone like me. It will be good to see some in-depth reviews of it in action. I also appreciate that you're making it available very widely. Last thought, sometimes meaningful innovation happens in small incremental improvements across time and at others in bigger significant jumps in shorter periods. It will be interesting to see if you've accomplished the latter.
  • 6 0
 If Tim Burton designed a drivetrain...
  • 2 0
 How soon can we get a prototype to the PB team so we can see huck to flat videos demonstrating chain slap (or lack thereof)? The upper chain path seems to be really really close to the chain stays so I'm curious how it will play out in real world scenarios. I'm intrigued by this and kinda like the look of it; kinda hate the look of it. The rear wheel looks cleaner but the downtube/bb area looks a mess. I want this to succeed at least as well as Pivot's designs if not more.
  • 11 0
 I'm 100% for the next prototype bike with a Supre Drive to get hucked to flat. I love those slow mos.
  • 7 1
 @cedric-eveleigh: We need a Supre Grim Doughnut!
  • 2 0
 The main thing this article admits to(finally) is the drag and wear and the wonky chainlines on 1x drivetrains. Bike engineers twist themselves into pretzels trying to fix issues they created themselves. We had systems that worked superbly in the past and still do, until the 2x /36t cass. wasn't low enough ,leading to all manner of 1x failed combinations that are leading some to push a proprietary frame design to fix more issues they created . And we go round and round. Any body out there tired of this crap? I guess I'm the outlier, still running a superbly tuned and bulletproof XT 3x9 groups on numerous rigs with spares for well into the next decade, but nothing seems to ever wear out, good stuff!
  • 4 2
 I had my intial skeptism over on the other site, but I'm totally on board with this as a product for certain bikes. Well done Cedric, doing what other companies were unwilling or unable to do.
  • 1 0
 This is really two innovations:
-the layout of the drivetrain
-the spring/ damper on the tensioner.

It seems like either innovation could work without the other. Like, you could have this drivetrain layout with a much simpler tensioner spring. Or you could have a conventional drivetrain layout, but have the rear derailleur tensioned by the spring-and-damper-in-a-stick, which could be attached to the chainstay.
  • 1 0
 dont pinion gearboxes have a springy thing on the drivetrain?
  • 1 0
 @Compositepro: yes, but they don't have a damper. They also don't have the less- spring tension in lower gears thing, but if course thats because they use a totally different system of gearing
  • 1 0
 @mattg95: I’m going to have to dismantle the one under the bench now and have a look at it in more detail
  • 3 2
 My previous opinion still stands: Too much added complexity for not enough benefit. I never think about breaking derailleurs because it's statistically a non-event.

Why not build some movement into a derailleur during high impact? IE what modern car mirrors will do if they're struck.
  • 2 0
 Still uses small 12mm rear axle, small flange to flange distance, chunk of weight on rear wheel (cassette and a bit less derailleur) and requires even more maintenance then a standard exposed cassette drive train? No thanks.
  • 1 0
 I like the shifting/derailleur concept. The “brass tube that holds the spring and damper” seems problematic though. More complication and gizmos requiring more complicated frame manufacturing seems like a tough sell for frame builders.
  • 1 0
 if this one works with Forbidden Bikes you can take my money right away. Effigear and Pinion seems a good alternative its just the suspension design doesn't really looks good in my opinion. But things were cleaner looks without the hanger.
  • 1 0
 I think this is a great idea.
The problem with a gearbox is the added cost to an already expensive bike, and yes for some applications the added friction is a no no.
I love the idea of a gearbox on the right bike, but the lack of choice of bikes that use it and the cost isn't for me.
This idea should keep the cost down, weight down and also maintain the drivetrains efficiencies above that of a gearbox.
I have recently had the misfortune of wrecking a rear mech and it was about £40 more expensive to replace the 11speed GX mech than it would have been a couple of years ago. I can't see these prices ever dropping back to where they were before the pandemic.
I am for ever, (feels like every couple of rides) having to either realign my hanger with a tool or replace it.
Again there's a cost to replacing the hangers at £25 each, it soon mounts up.
We pay a small fortune to have a "quality" mech and drivetrain so that we can have crisp and precise shifting, only for it to work like a budget setup within a couple of rides.
I think this approach could well prove to be a better solution.
Well done to you Sir, I wish you all the success.
  • 1 0
 Anything really innovative has to be less complicated than what we have now and include electric shifting. My new AXS shifts like a derailleur is supposed to. Yeah its huge and its hanging down there looking for trouble, but my god it shifts perfectly. Bang through gears like lightning. Makes you faster for sure, because you do not hesitate to shift. Good luck Lal
  • 1 0
 @cedric-eveleigh when it comes to manufacturing the parts, is it basically going to be just copies of a few shimano RD parts, or is all that going to be completely new? OR, will it be literally disassembling the shimano parts to make work on this setup? just curious how the builders you are working with plan on building the system, whether they strip down shimano parts, or they manufacture their own. i very much like this concept and hopefully it gets adopted to a few big brands soon.
also, try to ignore the hate. the people saying they broke a derailleur twice in their lifetime either ride very slow all the time, or never, ever crash. i've had rocks break and bend my derailleur, sticks that caused the same damage, and usually have to tune it up once a month. so i'm all for getting it up and out of the way.
  • 1 0
 One thing I'm wondering, on the biggest cog, the space between the derailleur pulley and the tensioner pulley is getting really short (there's barely 20cm on that wooden thing); can't this create issues ?
Because while the forward high idler creates less "chain crossing", there's a lot of crossing under, can't that crossing pull on the derailleur "outward" and make the gear jump back ?
Is the derailleur strong enough ?
  • 1 0
 Cedric, Great work! Honest question; why do you have the tensioner operating in the 10:00-11:00 range? Wouldn't it be equally effective operating in the 8:00-9:00 range, and still keep everything above the clearance line #121. This would eliminate the need to have the idler pulley so far forward.
  • 1 0
 So technically the tensioner could be anywhere right? Rearward of the idler for example (then the idler doesn't have to go this far forward), or even near the cassette on the top. In the current design it sure makes for some relatively tight chain angles, and I wonder if that could be reduced with the tensioner in a different place. Of course, would be neat to keep the weight off the swingarm, so perhaps near the idler is better. Or maybe the idler could function as the tensioner if it were allowed to move, though it will introduce some obvious issues with rigidity.
  • 2 0
 Since Effigear can't seem to get their shiz together, (honestly they should sell their patents) I'd buy a bike with this today. Like right now. Credit card in hand.
  • 1 0
 In 30+ years of mtb riding, I only experienced one broken derailleur which was a shadow. I am using a double chain ring system with a small oval chain ring and stinger 2X chain tensioner, can't find anything better.
  • 3 0
 it looks like my derailleur when i drive it into my wheel
  • 4 0
 This is so sick.
  • 1 0
 Meanwhile Shimano and Sram have all their engineers trying to figure out how to fix their supply chain instead of prototyping alternatives for traditional derailleurs
  • 2 0
 When I asked my wife if she would put this on her bike her reply was "Well, it's better than a Lefty.."
  • 1 0
 @sebStott is there any word on what 'derraileur' he's using at the back? Could you just run any mech, without the lower jockey cage?
  • 1 0
 @cedric-eveleigh could you answer this?
  • 2 0
 @mattg95: I designed and built that derailleur, and it's very specific to the drivetrain. For wide range cassettes, you definitely couldn't run any derailleur without the cage. With conventional derailleurs, the guide pulley is offset from the pivot axis of the cage, and when shifting gears, the cage rotates and this has a big effect on the distance from the guide pulley to the cassette sprockets. For a conventional derailleur with the cage cut off, the distance between the guide pulley and the cassette would be all wrong. For the Supre derailleur, the position of the guide pulley is determined solely by the parallelogram linkage. A lot of work went into this derailleur.
  • 2 0
 @cedric-eveleigh: thanks for the answer, it wasn't clear from the article what the rear mech was like. Love the work you're doing
  • 2 0
 Reading patents the whole day to find out a patent in-depth decryption in my favorite website. Am I stil at job?
  • 4 4
 Just gearbox it!!! All this pissing around with derailleurs or someone's version of it!! Gearbox is the way to go. Just get them better developed and job done! We cannot go for another 100 years of the rear mech!
  • 1 0
 Adam from Prosise Metal works turning out some real nice pieces for this bike. Very inspirational to see the pieces coming together. Go give them a follow on Insta....
  • 3 0
 Dont worry the peice of shittt specialized CEO will copy it..
  • 2 0
 No one is going to talk about the fact there are pivots on the rear triangle of fig 2 that don’t do anything? No? Nothing?
  • 1 0
 Same question, could be one piece.
  • 4 1
 Dat chain wrap.
  • 1 0
 For real, does it really need to be that much? It seems like the the tensioner could rotate further downwards and allow for more flexibility in where you can place the upper idler
  • 2 0
 @mattg95: MOAR CHAIN WRAP Why have less when you can have more
  • 1 0
 @mattg95: don't think it can go further back/down without hitting the drive side chainstay
  • 1 0
 @bkm303: how? It would take it away from the chainstay, not towards it. I'm talking about the lower tensioner wheel
  • 1 0
 @cedric-eveleigh why does the lower tensioner need so much wrap?
  • 1 0
 @mattg95: in the patent drawings, yes. On the actual bike he built (www.pinkbike.com/photo/21623180) the chainstay limits the rearward travel of the tensioner.

My guesses as to why:
(a) he doesn't want to lock mfrs into making elevated chainstay Orange lookalike bikes (but if people wanted to make elevated chainstay bikes, they could probably just clock the tensioner mounts differently to reduce wrap)
(b) he wants to keep a minimum chainwring wrap in the biggest cog to avoid wear. Currently the bigest-cog chainring wrap is pretty similar to what you see on standard drivetrains.
  • 2 0
 Looks like a pant leg / inner-ankle shredder to me? Has that happened?
  • 1 0
 Idd like to see his soultion to this, thats a really unique problem.
  • 3 0
 @gswallow "Has that happened?" nope
  • 1 0
 @cedric-eveleigh: It actually gives me flashbacks to when I had a 3x, I shredded my favorite pair of jeans. Maybe a protective cover or somthing?
  • 2 1
 @Themanicguy: just roll a pleat (pinroll) on your right pant leg ffs. Commuters have had this problem figured out for decades.
  • 1 0
 I want to love, I hope I love it - because there is a delicate dance between reliability and maintainability.
  • 1 0
 The top pic looks different from the prototype and appears it might work on a conventional dropout. Is that the case?
  • 1 0
 The 12-speed version is shown in this article, and the latest prototype bike (which was shown in the reveal) has an 11-speed cassette. Bikes companies are developing frames for the 12-speed version. The derailleur is mounted totally differently (two mount points) and the frame generally needs to be designed around the Supre Drive.
  • 2 2
 I'm hoping that belt driven tech becomes better. Derailleurs and chain drive are just old tech that everyone keeps trying to "re-invent".
  • 1 0
 belt tech has been around for decades in the motorcycle world, yet dirt bikes are still chain drive. Cheap, easy, vastly more adaptable...unless you go belt drive off a gear box. Now you are talking cool.
  • 1 0
 Question - does a conventional chain fit or do they need to start making longer ones for this and HP type bikes?
  • 1 0
 The 12-speed drivetrain in this article has a 142-link chain. It's a fair bit of extra over a full length off-the-shelf chain. But chain manufacturers might start offering longer chains if the adoption of high pivot bikes continues to increase.
  • 2 0
 @cedric-eveleigh: having worked at a place with a chain manufacturing line once you are in contact with an oe its not a problem. Chains are made to the link length for each bike manufacturers. Links arent thrown away on every bike build like they are for aftermarket replacements. Standard for bike companies.
  • 1 0
 @cedric-eveleigh: thanks. Good luck with your design. Hoping to see it in production in the future.
  • 1 0
 This frame with a Trust fork....going for most despised person at the local trails.
  • 1 0
 altough i only broke 1 derailleur in 30 years of riding i take my hat off for this one!!! seems a great idea
  • 2 0
 noice!
  • 3 1
 Looks like a Balfa
  • 4 0
 Good eye! I got inspiration from the Balfa BB7 when designing the frame of my first prototype bike.
  • 2 0
 @cedric-eveleigh: the Balfa is a thing of beauty, as is this. Great work on this!
  • 1 0
 So awesome! But, so much chain bending!
  • 1 1
 so if i write off 10 rear mechas and hangers how does that cost compare to this
  • 1 0
 "Lipstick, meet pig".......
  • 1 0
 Rather break a derailleur than a rear swing arm
  • 1 0
 Must Be super light weight
  • 1 0
 Love it. Great work Cedric
  • 4 6
 Good grief, what is wrong with the technology we have? Lets throw another 6 pivots and derailleurs on it... that will solve the problem. Wait, what's the problem? Go ride.
  • 1 0
 HTFU and take MY money!
  • 1 0
 That's sick
  • 1 0
 Mike Levy where you at?
  • 1 3
 'simpler solution'...
  • 2 5
 please spend time working on gear boxes
  • 13 1
 I think enough smart people are tackling gearboxes, it's nice to see a different approach.
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