Pinion P1.18 Gearbox: First Ride
How do you know if you’ve seen a glimpse of the future? Sci-fi films of the 1960s showed us a world where we’d all have robot butlers and flying cars, but we’re now living in that future and things haven’t changed so much. Sure skirts are a bit longer, cars uglier and we have iPads, yet if someone had skipped those fifty years in between, they’d still be able to recognise the world around them. If the past is any guide, the world of tomorrow will look a lot like today. So if we wonder about the future of mountain bikes, most things will stay constant: two wheels, cranks in the middle and a handlebar at the front. How and where we ride bikes won’t be that different either. Change the fundamentals and you no longer have a mountain bike. Present technology, however, ensures that there is still much room for future improvements - and the fact that we still rely on derailleur shifting is glaring evidence.
Pinion's Gearbox - Ready for the Future
For those who spend time thinking about this future, gearing has been a constant theme. Derailleur mechs have a number of obvious flaws, like how easily they can be destroyed by a stray rock, the fact they put weight on an awkward part of the bike and that are they open to the elements. Yet nobody has managed to find a suitable alternative yet, well until now - maybe. We have been monitoring the development of a German-made 18-speed sequential-shift gearbox designed specifically for mountain bikes. The Pinion P1.18 gearbox is now nearing production and its future looks very bright.
Since we first saw the Pinion gearbox at Eurobike last year, we’ve made no bones about the fact that we like it. We got to try it briefly last year and were impressed. Since then we’ve been itching for a chance to take it out on the trail and on a trip up to see Alutech bikes in Northern Germany, we finally got that chance. Alutech let us spend a day doing skids and wheelies around their home trails on the shores of the Baltic Sea. They had mounted it to a modified version of one of their popular Fanes enduro bikes and we took it for a ride along the coast and another around the woods above their headquarters.
Twist-grip Shifting
First time on the bike and heading out, you notice that you can just jump on it and ride. That is important. If you’ve used a gripshift system before then the Pinion's shifting system will be very familiar. Those who haven't, don’t be afraid. Twist-shift systems work quite well - SRAM wouldn’t have bought them back if they didn’t. People who worry about twisting the shifter when they pull on the bars either haven’t used gripshift, or set their bike up badly when they did. The single twist shifter moves through all 18 well spaced gear selections in sequence, with a reported, 600-percent spread from lowest to highest - a greater range than you would get with a 3 x 10 derailleur drivetrain and without any of its overlapping or duplicate ratios. Being able to move through every gear with a single shifter is one of the big advantages of the system: easy access to such a wide range.
What the twist-shifter does mean is that you have to think about brake lever positioning, especially if you have small hands. Most current brake-lever systems are based around triggers which mean they can be run close-in to the grip. With the barrel of the twist shifter in the way, smaller-handed riders may struggle to properly reach the blades on some brakes, like the relatively short-bladed Formula set that were mounted on the test bike.
Riding the Pinion P1.18 Gearbox
When you properly get going you start to realise that you will need to learn a few things about how to ride with a Pinion gearbox. First off there is how quiet it is – there’s no reassuring clunk when you shift gear and because the box has such a wide spread of gears, each gear is very close together. This means grabbing one might not be enough to feel it through the pedals, but then you have to work out how many you need and it’s easy to grab too many and find yourself in too tough a gear. This is a matter of getting used to the system though. One thing we particularly like is how it affects the weight placement on the bike – all the central, low-down weight is a recipe for a well-balanced ride.
Shifting is the big deal with the Pinion system. With this prototype you cannot shift down gears if you are putting too much load through the pedals – in other words if you’re really putting some abuse uphill it won’t change gear until you release pressure for a split second. If you are bowling along easily you can shift down, but when more power becomes involved, you can’t. When you are pinning it downhill, you can shift up into a harder gear, no matter what you’re doing on the pedals. Like a car, however, you need to let off momentarily to shift back down through the gears.
Pinion says the tolerance for shifting will be improved in the production version, so you will be able to shift when more power is going through the pedals than you can on this prototype. However, we suspect this will always be a feature of how the Pinion behaves and it’s something you will need to learn to live with. Look at the world outside of mountain bikes: at your car, your motorbike, in fact pretty much every geared thing you can think of. They all have clutches. In case you’re not familiar, a clutch disconnects the gearbox from the power and allows you to change gear smoothly. If you drive an automatic transmission it doesn’t mean there isn’t a clutch, just that the car does that part of the gear change for you. When you are riding the Pinion gearbox, you become the clutch and in a short time, downshifts become a reflex action.
Mountain bikes don’t have clutches – to get into the mechanics and possibilities of that gets too involved for this short article. Without a mechanism to separate the gears from the power you need to find another way and fortunately you find that opportunity naturally in the vertical moment of the pedal stroke. When both cranks are vertical there is no power going through the gearbox, so you can shift. This means you can grab a gear no matter how hard you push, you just need to plan ahead a little bit and time your shift. And that’s the nut – you will need to learn how to use the Pinion gearbox to really get the best out of it. Is that a bad thing? We’d say no – you had to learn to use a derailleur in the first place, you had to learn to shift gears on a car or a moto, so learning to use a different gear system on a mountain bike shouldn’t be a big deal.
One thing we would like to see is an agreement on standards for fitting gearboxes to bikes. At the moment Pinion are still a relatively unknown company outside Germany and we can appreciate that as a frame-builder it could be a big ask to commit to a system from a company like that. Especially because frames will need tweaking, as in the case of this Alutech, to accommodate the size difference between a bottom bracket and a gearbox, and there is a cost in doing that. Yet if SRAM, Shimano or some third player could agree to work to one standard then surely framebuilders could feel confident enough to make the investment to build frames that can take gearboxes and we would be one step closer to geared transmissions being common to mountain bikes.
Pinkbike's Take
What Pinion says:
www.pinion.eu
www.alutech-cycles.com
Pinion's Gearbox - Ready for the Future
For those who spend time thinking about this future, gearing has been a constant theme. Derailleur mechs have a number of obvious flaws, like how easily they can be destroyed by a stray rock, the fact they put weight on an awkward part of the bike and that are they open to the elements. Yet nobody has managed to find a suitable alternative yet, well until now - maybe. We have been monitoring the development of a German-made 18-speed sequential-shift gearbox designed specifically for mountain bikes. The Pinion P1.18 gearbox is now nearing production and its future looks very bright.
 |
 |
 Drive side with the Pinion-equipped Alutech Fanes. The chain tensioner sits behind the gearbox and doubles as a roller guide. The front sprocket diameter was chosen to work with the most popular suspension designs. To adjust the gear ratios to suit track or terrain conditions, simply change either sprocket of the chain drive. |
Since we first saw the Pinion gearbox at Eurobike last year, we’ve made no bones about the fact that we like it. We got to try it briefly last year and were impressed. Since then we’ve been itching for a chance to take it out on the trail and on a trip up to see Alutech bikes in Northern Germany, we finally got that chance. Alutech let us spend a day doing skids and wheelies around their home trails on the shores of the Baltic Sea. They had mounted it to a modified version of one of their popular Fanes enduro bikes and we took it for a ride along the coast and another around the woods above their headquarters.
 |
 |
| And now the non-drive-side. Notice the dual-cable drive where it enters the gearbox housing to actuate the rotary shifting mech. he eight-speed transmission is very compact, which concentrates its weight low in the frame. One thing worth noting is that the gear casing is larger than a standard bottom bracket shell at the crank axle. Alutech redesigned its swingarm pivot location and linkage to adapt the Pinion transmission to the frame while retaining the correct chainstay length. |
Twist-grip Shifting
First time on the bike and heading out, you notice that you can just jump on it and ride. That is important. If you’ve used a gripshift system before then the Pinion's shifting system will be very familiar. Those who haven't, don’t be afraid. Twist-shift systems work quite well - SRAM wouldn’t have bought them back if they didn’t. People who worry about twisting the shifter when they pull on the bars either haven’t used gripshift, or set their bike up badly when they did. The single twist shifter moves through all 18 well spaced gear selections in sequence, with a reported, 600-percent spread from lowest to highest - a greater range than you would get with a 3 x 10 derailleur drivetrain and without any of its overlapping or duplicate ratios. Being able to move through every gear with a single shifter is one of the big advantages of the system: easy access to such a wide range.
What the twist-shifter does mean is that you have to think about brake lever positioning, especially if you have small hands. Most current brake-lever systems are based around triggers which mean they can be run close-in to the grip. With the barrel of the twist shifter in the way, smaller-handed riders may struggle to properly reach the blades on some brakes, like the relatively short-bladed Formula set that were mounted on the test bike.
 |
 |
| That shifter. Unlike any current mountain bike system, the Pinion gearbox needs two cables to operate its rotary shifting mechanism - this is one of the reasons why a conventional thumb shifter wouldn't work with the P1.18 gearbox. |
 |
| A look into the Pinion P1.18 gearbox reveals a lot of trickery. There is a mirror-image, matching stack of gears on each shaft that mesh together and turn freely on the shafts. When you call for a shift, pawls inside the hollow shafts pop up underneath selected gears to lock them in place. The disproportionate size of the teeth of the gears is necessary to match the diameters of opposing pairs of gears inside the transmission, while ensuring that each of the 18 speeds are evenly spaced. Much engineering went into the P1.18 gearbox before a single piece of metal was cut. Photo by Jens Staudt. www.mtb-news.de |
 |
| A look at some of the meshing gears on the second shaft (left) and a number of gear-shafts showing the cutaways where the shift pawls reach through to lock in the gears (right). Understandably, Pinion did not want to show us the actual shifting mech. Photo by Jens Staudt. www.mtb-news.de |
Riding the Pinion P1.18 Gearbox
When you properly get going you start to realise that you will need to learn a few things about how to ride with a Pinion gearbox. First off there is how quiet it is – there’s no reassuring clunk when you shift gear and because the box has such a wide spread of gears, each gear is very close together. This means grabbing one might not be enough to feel it through the pedals, but then you have to work out how many you need and it’s easy to grab too many and find yourself in too tough a gear. This is a matter of getting used to the system though. One thing we particularly like is how it affects the weight placement on the bike – all the central, low-down weight is a recipe for a well-balanced ride.
 |
| When we said we took the bike for some skids and wheelies, we meant skids and wheelies. |
Shifting is the big deal with the Pinion system. With this prototype you cannot shift down gears if you are putting too much load through the pedals – in other words if you’re really putting some abuse uphill it won’t change gear until you release pressure for a split second. If you are bowling along easily you can shift down, but when more power becomes involved, you can’t. When you are pinning it downhill, you can shift up into a harder gear, no matter what you’re doing on the pedals. Like a car, however, you need to let off momentarily to shift back down through the gears.
Pinion says the tolerance for shifting will be improved in the production version, so you will be able to shift when more power is going through the pedals than you can on this prototype. However, we suspect this will always be a feature of how the Pinion behaves and it’s something you will need to learn to live with. Look at the world outside of mountain bikes: at your car, your motorbike, in fact pretty much every geared thing you can think of. They all have clutches. In case you’re not familiar, a clutch disconnects the gearbox from the power and allows you to change gear smoothly. If you drive an automatic transmission it doesn’t mean there isn’t a clutch, just that the car does that part of the gear change for you. When you are riding the Pinion gearbox, you become the clutch and in a short time, downshifts become a reflex action.
 |
| Forcing the bike onto the line - the low-centre of gravity is noticable out on the trail and it feels good. |
Mountain bikes don’t have clutches – to get into the mechanics and possibilities of that gets too involved for this short article. Without a mechanism to separate the gears from the power you need to find another way and fortunately you find that opportunity naturally in the vertical moment of the pedal stroke. When both cranks are vertical there is no power going through the gearbox, so you can shift. This means you can grab a gear no matter how hard you push, you just need to plan ahead a little bit and time your shift. And that’s the nut – you will need to learn how to use the Pinion gearbox to really get the best out of it. Is that a bad thing? We’d say no – you had to learn to use a derailleur in the first place, you had to learn to shift gears on a car or a moto, so learning to use a different gear system on a mountain bike shouldn’t be a big deal.
One thing we would like to see is an agreement on standards for fitting gearboxes to bikes. At the moment Pinion are still a relatively unknown company outside Germany and we can appreciate that as a frame-builder it could be a big ask to commit to a system from a company like that. Especially because frames will need tweaking, as in the case of this Alutech, to accommodate the size difference between a bottom bracket and a gearbox, and there is a cost in doing that. Yet if SRAM, Shimano or some third player could agree to work to one standard then surely framebuilders could feel confident enough to make the investment to build frames that can take gearboxes and we would be one step closer to geared transmissions being common to mountain bikes.
 |
| Once more for luck between those two big trees. |
Pinkbike's Take
 | After all of this we are left with more questions. How well will it survive out in the wild? What happens if it does need maintenance? How do you change a shifter cable? But it's a continuing theme with this Pinion system - the more we find out, the more we want to know. It genuinely does work and we like what we have seen so far. We can't wait to get a P1.18 on long-term test to see how it does and if the rumours of a hydraulic trigger shifter ever come to life, well that could be something truly special. Have we seen a glimpse of the future of mountain bikes? Maybe... - Matt Wragg |
What Pinion says:
| Having the premiere test of the P1.18 on Pinkbike was something we had been planning for a long time, but it was the final 2012 production version that was supposed to be tested, not the pre-production version from 2011 Matt was riding. We were supposed to get the P1.18 into regular production at the beginning of May - as we were timing it on the delivery dates our suppliers assured us of. The internal P1.18 parts are produced by different German automotive suppliers and one of them admitted a delay in production of three months on short notice, which came as a surprise to us. The part was that important and challenging that we couldn't change the supplier. The bad news reached us when the date for the test-ride with Pinkbike was already set and we seriously considered cancelling it. The shifting performance under load is an important issue when riding a Pinion-equipped bike, and it is the major improvement we made from the pre-production version of the Alutech Fanes test-bike to the final version. We have completely redesigned the ratchet braces inside the freewheel that are responsible for a smooth and well-defined shifting process. As Matt has pointed out correctly, you can't shift the P1.18 from a long gear to a short gear under full load. That's not the problem. You can't do it with a hub gear either nor from a bigger to a smaller front sprocket with a derailleur system. You need to diminish the load for a split second. On this pre-production version of the P1.18 you can shift under full load from a shorter to a longer gear and with the final version of the P1.18 the shifting from long to short will significantly be improved under part load. The first P1.18 serial gear boxes will now be shipped to the bike manufacturers at the beginning of August. - Falco Mille, Brand Communication |
www.pinion.eu
www.alutech-cycles.com
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dv65 0.078590
dv65 0.078590
375 Comments
Try it(with a gearbox) before you knock it.
I have triggers on my Zerode, and will one day try twitshift on it, just to see what I prefer. I dug the Rohloff twit shifter on my Lahar. Never mis shifted. Changing the correct amount of gears when changing lots at once is the tricky bit as it's so easy with a twit shifter.
Other than that love this system, has so much potential!
Dear Pinkbike community, thank you for this overwhelming feedback. I would like to comment a few of your questions, suggestions and criticisms repeating.
Number of gears:
Pinion is not a one product brand. The P1.18 is our initial product that is best for enduro and all mountain riding. The P1.18 is based on a platform technology that allows different gear sets. A Pinion gear box with a reduced downhill or freeride gear ratio is planed, also an 8-speed gear box e-motor unit, a light-weight or a budget version.
Falco Mille
Brand Communication, Pinion
falco@pinion.eu
For all mountain riding, I think most people welcome a wide range of ratios; but you will find a lot of us who don't sign up to the necessity for such close gear spacing and therefore so many gears.
If you read most of the moans about 10 speed and now 11 speed, it's that we'd be happy with these ratios being added to 1x 9 speed. Particularly if this delivers improved robustness and reduced weight and cost.
9 or 10 speeds may offer simpler solutions to shifting also? Or at least that was inferred somewhere above.
Perhaps competitive people want close ratios. I ride for fun and have different priorities.
gearboxes are nowhere near as good as a hub. if you must put so much energy into a gearbox with 18 gears, please develop a 7- 9 speed hub AS WELL.
1- gearboxes can only go into one bike, a hub can go with you season to season, frame to frame, any frame you want, not just the ONLY gearbox frame out there.
2-why do gearbox makers always try to have so many gears?!? freeriders/DH have no use for 7 lbs. of 18 gears, but they are the ones who would benefit the most from losing the derailleur. if there were fewer gears it would weigh less AND be better designed for gravity riders. 7-9 spd. done. i buy 2 tomorrow, so will all my friends if this simple product gets made. it would be an absolute game changer for the whole industry to have a gear HUB. I'd even suck it up and use grip shift.
3- i think the weight penalty of 18 gears will hinder any kind of market value. make it 1/2 the gears, 1/2 the weight, and there's a product that will be enticing to almost every single gravity rider on the planet. it will still be heavier, but it will be close enough for most guys to make the jump. bikes are so light these days i can easily sacrifice an extra lb. for a hub. i cannot and will not sacrifice 4 lbs! and still have no frame choices
if i had the shop and knowledge i would have made this in 2001. you guys have it- give it a try it would be the highest selling bike part in the world
The reason for choosing a larger spread of gears has more to do with economics. There are many more all-mountain, enduro and trail riders than freeride/gravity riders in the world. One can only hope to earn a tiny percentage of the marketplace with a start-up gearbox, so it makes better sense to aim your first product at the largest group of potential customers.
Since an eight-speed gearbox would be a piece of cake to produce when compared to the complexity of the 18-speed Pinion transmission, I would expect that a DH-specific transmission has already been designed and even prototyped. If the P1.18 is reasonably successful when released, I am sure Pinion's P2.8 is sure to follow.
RC
If you want a 7 - 9 speed hub, buy a shimano.
you obviously didn't read to the comment you are posting on!
"A Pinion gear box with a reduced downhill or freeride gear ratio is planed,"
% of guys (ESPECIALLY non-gravity riders) who would sacrifice 4 extra lbs. just to get rid of derailleur and HAVE to ride gripshift = really small %
% of guys who will pay very high prices to only have one choice of frame/linkage, with said frame needing custom cranks= smaller %
% of guys who even fit onto the extremely small batches of said frames= very small% (i'm too big, lots of guys too small for narrow size range of boutique frames)
imagine a 7-9 speed rear gearhub that weighed within 1.5 lbs. of a normal drivetrain+hub. everyone can choose their favorite frame, cranks, riding style and everything, take it with them when they buy/break new frames, and have all the same gear choices because they run a conventional front ring. if guys want 7-9 gears- single ring up front. 14-18- double ring.... see where i'm going? (hammershmitt + gearhub??) the answer to the entire derailleur dilemma is solved in one product, the biggest selling bike product since inflatable tires. game changer for everyone on a bike= 7-9spd. gearhub.
expensive, heavy, boutique frames do not have a very big market %. frames change every year, a gearhub could stay the same for years and still be relevant.
Why would you sell your gearbox, without the frame or vic versa?
Pinion has DH version on the way probably 8 speed.
Pinion has introduced a product that can make riding better for all of us. Don't knock the boutique brands for being the only ones to offer gearbox bikes because if they didn't who would? The big brands won't do it until someone finally makes a really good gearbox, and until now nobody did. As I have said before. If Pinions gearbox gains traction SRAM and Shimano will follow suit and that is when we will see standardization and a truly competitive gear box. That is the real goal with supporting Pinion's gear box. .Because the more people that want gearbox bikes the better they will get. Falco Getter Done Man! We have very high expectations.
We ordered two Nicolai Helius AM Pinion in November for an attempted delivery date end of february, no problem untill that day. In February, I received a phone call from our french distributor who spoke to us for end of march than .... end April or 2d week of May.
This famous week, we were waiting for such a long time, I received an email from our french distributor in which one Nicolai and Pinion are talking about a delivery date for end July. This email contained a Pdf from Nicolai and Pinion in date of the the previous week.
Working in mechanical design for several years, it seems to me that you perfectly kneew that you were going to be late two or three weeks before sending this famous email.
Reading this forum, you are speaking of a delivery date in August of that year, lightweight gearbox, downhill gearbox and so much more....
Our order is still going on... untill that day. What would happen if all of us, fifty or a hundred of us were canceling our order after waiting, and waiting, and waiting.
So could you please give a real delivery date... before we get all bored after waiting, and waiting.... with nothing else in the garage than my road bike and an expensive dream.
You might know that we are only a few of us to be crazy enough to spend 8500€ in a bike.
Best regards.
Lionel
The Pionion P1.18 is a low maintenance drive and this is one main advantage compared to a derailleur system. An oil change is recommended in annual intervals and can easily be done even by riders with substandard mechanical skills. Changing cables or the front sprocket is easy too. A service manual will be available with the product release. The internal gear assembly itself is rated for endurance strength. We warrant a service life of at least 40.000 miles. In the unlikely event of a internal damage the Pinion P1.18 can be replaced within minutes, as it is mounted to the frame by only three bolts. For repairs or replacement we are establishing a modern service network, including bike manufacturers, distributors, service centers and dealers. Service and replacement for Pinion bikes will be as comfortable as known from derailleur or IHG bikes.
Or is it really just 40?
are the bar grips used a standard size? I would not wish for my hand to be resting on the clamp while riding.
I hope this kicks off properly and wish the company the best, my thoughts: how heavy is the test bike and what are the plans for other frame designs and/or manufacturers designs, or do you think that frame patterning is possible?
Coolest feature of all gearbox's that I know of; especially for DH and Enduro riding is the ability to dump change or single change super quick while not pedaling and while braking into corners, this means that mid corner or on the apex you get on the gas as hard as you like and in the perfect gear. No slipping or "oh shit" - wrong gear!
Imagine the latest carbon DH frame with the pinion gearbox built in running a 6 to 8 speed ratio? Just change the rear sprocket to suit track types, no noise or chain slap, no unwanted extra unsprung weight hanging out the back. And the putting of what weight there is right between your feet.
Frame designers can start thinking about ultimate pivot heights and linkage systems without making allowances/sacrifices for the chain line.
Bring on an Ibis Mojo HD with pinion for Enduro - Super D. Or maybe the Zerode guys could look at this for their carbon trail bike.
I hope this sells well and is picked up by more than a handful of frame builders. This could become the 29er revolution for the gravity and AM market!
Future looks bright to me.
And you make it sound like zerode are bringing out a trail bike...? I want to hear more
The cable length that is needed to shift 18 gears in a row does not allow a common thumb shifter design. We are aware that many riders (including myself) are averse to grip shifters, as we might know them from some bad riding experience back in the nineties. So we really put some effort in designing a better grip shifter, excluding the known disadvantages. May be you give it a try. Besides we are working on an alternative solution. Hydraulic, mechanical or electric – we are checking all options.
I think the weight is going to keep many riders from going with your gear box. At 3,179 grams complete. It's twice the weight of my XX kit. So it needs to go on a diet. Will frame manufactures be able to mold the case out of carbon and just get the internals? If the gears are steel can they be made out of ti or aluminum to make them lighter? Can you use Ceramic bearings in place of steel?
I think 18 gears is more than I and I think most others here need. It seems your system is a 2x. So for us on the Trail side we really only need 12 well spaced gears to ride anything. The DH crowd could get away with even less. Once again shedding weight.
I also think most of us here want you to succeed. So if you need any input or ideas just ask and you will get more than you could ever want.
My suggestion with this setup is to completely eliminate the chain all together and use a hypoid driven driveshaft with full sealed enclosure. It's not a car so you just need a small shaft with decent carbon cure to reduce torque bend and it's likely to be lighter than a chain but maintenance free... The concept is not that hard considering the hardest part (gearbox) is already in beta.
Good luck! This is revolutionary technology the bike industry has been waiting for!
Thats why I run a new chain twice a season. They are cheap insurance and I have never snapped one when I started doing that.
Shifts are not as clean under load, but bikes are meant to be ridden hard (at least thats how I ride mine) and it works just fine. Sure, I may have to replace my derailleur sooner, but I have to every season anyways from it getting beat up on rocks and crashes. I would never shift running into a big jump or sketchy section. Anticipation is key. So many riders are always focused on the 10-15ft in front of them, but ideally you are always scoping out as far as you can see. You can usually tell what gear you need to be in anyways by checking out the run in before hand, which I would always do before hitting a large jump.
I think gearboxes have a realistic future in the first part only in DH, FR and AM bikes. From about 150 mm of travel and up.
Ditching a wide ration cassette like those found on AM/Enduro bikes would drop a good deal of weight and maybe free up some room to do some interesting engineering of the stays and hubs.
Now, Sramano, go an die and take your crappy markeneering in the hole with you.
@Scott and Commencal: Want to order Voltage and Supreme with superlow BB and with six speed box please!
As the Pinion P1.18 is not a regular add-on part you can't compare its weight directly with the weight of a derailleur system. The P1.18 is replacing some other bike parts like rear sprocket, derailleurs and shifters and is also integrating a BB shell, bearings, axle and cranks.The stand alone weight of the complete Pinion P1.18 system is 2.7 kg. This makes an additional weight of a bit less than a Kilogram compared to a complete bike with a high-end 3 x 9 derailleur drive. - But with a low and centered mass and a lighter rear wheel.
I already stuck a hammerschmidt on my bike which I got used to pretty quickly.
Hopefully a few more bike manufacturers will take notice and design some frames to go with it.
alutech-cycles.com/Fanes-Enduro-30-Pinion-Komplettbike-v1-M2013
2012 Shimano XT Cassette CS-M770-10 - 286 g
2012 XT 3x10 Hollowtech II Crankset FC-M780 - 860g
2012 XT Rapidfire Plus Shift Levers SL-M780 - 250g
2012 Shimano XT Shadow Rear Derailleur RD-M780 - 230g
2012 Shimano XT Triple Front Derailleur FD-M781 - 157g
Total: 1783g or 3.9 pounds
Pinion Hub incl sprocket gear 24t - 2700g
Cranks - 364 g
Shifter -115g
Total: 3179g or 7pounds
wheres the chain weight btw?
Everything is a compromise, I've ordered this bike,a s I feel the miniscule sacrifices are well worth the gains. Maybe not for XC, but everything else I think it weighs way in favor of a bike with Pinion. Just have to see how good the box is.
But for a while though, i will stick to the classic 9 speed ( or 10 someday) derailleurs in the back of the bike. They are not THAT bad.
With the Pinion rotary shifter both individual and multiple gear shifts can be made with split-second precision. The indexing of the shifting is at the gearbox so unaffected by damaged or stretched cables or cable housings.
Get away with making moto noises when riding Braaaap (pause and shift) braaaaap....
There are also other advantages (gearbox related) that might possibly negate the need for you to shift while braking. Mind you, I am assuming the pinion shifts like the rohloff.
One reason you might downshift while braking is so that you are in the proper gear once you are ready to pedal (Imagine a downhill section that quickly transitions to an uphill). With these transmissions you can concentrate on braking and then instantly downshift several gears (as many as you want) and be ready in the proper gear. You can even shift at a dead stop (very handy when commuting or if you have to stop suddenly on the trail). If you think about it, pedaling (required for derailleur shifting) while braking doesn't really make sense.
Also during really gnarly sections you don't want to be pedaling constantly (might hit rocks or put you off balance) so shifting with a derailleur is not an option. With the gearbox system, you can still shift.
As mentioned on other discussion about bearboxes, I still have my concerns about play, efficiency and maintenance. Gearboxes rarely fail, but when they do it ain't simple and it ain't cheap. And as it was pointed out to me back then, now I understand how shifting when not pedaling can outweight the negatives.
I really, really hope Pinion gets to standarize mounting of gearboxes to several frames. I'd hate to break a frame that renders my gearbox only good to sell for spare parts.
Why not have a left and a right shifter, both with only the big thumb lever (i.e. the 'downshift' lever from a deraileur system). Push big lever on left to shift down, big lever on right to shift up.
Ah, but you have to let off slack with one shifter when you take it up with the other? Well run a cable between the shifters, along the handlebars. With even a modicum of thought about how to put the cable placement, it'd never be in the way, you wouldn't need to mount it to the bars if you didn't want to bother (not very long), and could use standard gear cable outer to do it.
Problem solved! Trigger shifter, using both thumbs, and should work just fine with this gearbox!
Just saying..
RC
RC
RC
Honda raced a gearbox World Cup Downhill bike and won the Championship with Greg Minaar. This design looks much more compact than the Honda design.
People hate change, their heads exploded when the first disc brake was introduced.Try introducing disc brakes to roadies; ) I am a true gearhead and love new innovation and designs, I would love to see this design improve and would I ever want a disc brake on a road bike.
Love the gearbox idea, this bike looks to be right up my alley, I do agree it could be less gears and I really do think an "above the crank mount to any frame conversion option" would be the cats ass.
"The reason for the Grip-Shift is the required range of motion of the cam shafts. The shaft has to turn 1020° between the lowest and highest gear. That is exactly what prevents the use of a real shift lever"
(Freely) Translation by me:
www.mtb-news.de/news/2011/08/23/nicolai-helius-am-pinion-fahrbericht-vom-ersten-mountainbike-mit-pinion-getriebe
haha, I didn't read the link.
but even if it does, the fact is the same - there is a cable that is used to move the mechanism which changes the gears... a trigger does it and a grip shift does it. They do it a bit differently, but one difference is how much cable you want to move with a 'click'. So some smart mech engineer should be able to solve the problem with either setup. Or is a hydraulic cable better for both? I hate when my reverb cable breaks from the seat connector... but my brakes never have had a problem.... I smell poor design here.
If pulling more cable is necessary to get 1020 degrees [I'm sure all we trigger-shifters represent enough demand], this reminds me of the cantilever-to-linear-pull brake issue that "necessitated" new levers to go with everyone's new brakes. I remember Problem Solvers made a cheap, simple little cable-pull 'amplifier' ...ah here it is: problemsolversbike.com/products/travel_agents
Couldn't a clever bunch of engineers and machinists incorporate something like this for use with the triggers we love?
Re: Ferrarri. Lower Cof G is better, as long as all else is equal. At a certain point being heavier overall overcomes the c of g advantage.
I went from a Katipo(17kg) to a Zerode(19kg), both are very similar designs, and yet different but still similar enough to give credit to the Zerode feeling much more stable in the rough, and more confidence inspiring in every situation. As mentioned, there were other factors involved.
PS. I've never even touched a single drug. not even one beer or cig. You think you know physics but you're only good with arithmetic. you add trouble, subtract pleasure, divide attention, and multiply ignorance. so keep insulting me, thats a race you'll NEVER win!
NoSkid, you are referring to sprung weight. Losing sprung weight is less important than unsprung, and lower CofG does minimise the increased mass/weight.
KTown please post pics of your bike. You must have at least 5kg of ballast strapped to your BB to increase mass(weight when gravity is present) which would make3 you the fastest. Too bad for all the WC racers who are at such a disadvantage to you who is smarter than all the engineers who rely on physics which does not matter in the real world. LMAO LOL LMAO LOL!!!!!!!!
Ktow, I looked at your profile, and saw your bike. You really wanyt people to believe that dinosaur is faster than a Trek, Santa Cruz, or Demo carbon with modern geometry, suspension, wheels, and drivetrain? You are just a retrogrouch who hasn't adapted to the modern world, or can't afford real equipment like people like me, who got an education and get promoted for being good at what we do, including learning accurately to adapt to a changing world. You must need to justify your lot in life by rejecting progression. I mean real progression, not marketing. Most modern geometry is too slack for the average rider, but they think they need it because the racers use it.
I have been riding and racing 2 wheeled machined since I was 9 years old (I mean competitively, not just in the back alley on a banana seat bike.) In the late 90's I was ranked 18th in the world in old timers motocross. No I wasn't a top 10 rider, but I could actually afford to race at that level due to my educatuion. I was top 10 provincially prior to my knee blowout in vet BMX. I get annoyed when people on the internet pass their opinions on as facts like you are, and don't understand what they are saying. I tried to clarify, and you keep shooting yourself in the foot. Keep doing it if you like.
I guess your agreeing with me here then. Sounds like you're not. No need to reconfirm things I'm saying thanks. I get it. Bang on with old mate if you want.
And don't include me in this sh!t to make you sound good. "I forgot to mention, Ktown, and NoSkidMarks, if you want to avoid deflection, shouldn't YOU each ride 29" wheels, they are better at straight line, non deflecting, avoiding changing direction because of mass (which is weight when acted on by gravity) and gyroscopic effect.". What I said was correct, if not, disprove it but don't bang on like a child with cheap off topic retorts. On your tangent though. 29ers indeed role over stuff better, but obviously lack the turning dynamics of smaller wheels, and don't allow for short stays,also inhibiting turning characteristics. I am curious about 27.5 though, as it's not much bigger than 26" I suspect a future(with new fork axle standard)for 27.5" for some if not all riders in DH. But we'll see. I've not thought it through much, there's probably some catch.
you really shouldn't try to use your education to come across as a better rider. thats irrelevant. With that logic, I have a Masters in Architecture at age 23 I guess I'm a pro ridder too now. you have your education but you lack common sense.
Ihate comp... I didn't see Ktown in the results at sea otter. Can you show me where he was in the results? He seems to be all talk. Ktown is not correct on the pine cars unless the variables are all accounted for. Many science experiments show that all being equal,l all objects accelerate and reach the same top speed unless certain variables are different. This is fact. List rare irrelevant variables if you like. Sea otter is not a great example as most WC riders don't bother showing up. Show me WC where an airborn is in the top 10 and we'll talk. I don't love light, but to say heavy falls faster is stupid. You are looking for any rare example of where heavier equals faster acceleration. There are such limited examples of this based on drag or air resistance,or friction that it is a mute point. A lighter object will produce less friction against the bearings etc etc etc. I have simply explained away all of Ktown's nonsense. He isn't running 29" wheels, which would follow his logic better. He isn't running extra ballast to make a 75lbs or 200lbs bike to have an advantage.If he was right, Sam Hill would run a 300lbs bike to beat Aaron Gwinn LOL. He hasn't posted any race results. He worked in a bike shop. Gig Fing deal. He makes BS claims. He lists partial explanations that are easily explained away. I may be an ass here, but I am sick of ignorant kids posting SHIT as fact.
Show a picture of your 200+lb DH with 29"wheels to show off how you have an advantage please. If a little weight = speed. more weight= more speed right?
NoSkid: I converted my Mojo SL to 650b. I love it. The steering is very similar to a slack trailbike, and the rolling resistance is close to a29er. The 69deg mojo acts like my El Guapo (67deg)in terms of steering and stability..
I'm done with this. Ktown has a trade degree, not a real degree. He is misleading people. I don't see any race team from ship racing, to airplane racing, to DH racing, to F1 to MX where a competitive team adds weight for an advantage. The lightest possible weight with the strength needed always is an advantage, unless you are going in a straight line trying to be knocked off course (football linesman for example.) The last time I checked, rode or raced DH, there were a lot of corners to deal with and a lot of jumps to maneuver and position the bike for the next obstacle.
in the downhill world the "lite bike" era makes no sense. I'm 100% sure a rock rolls downhill faster than a feather.
ktown last quote:
there is a reason heavy 26ers are still winning. thats cause its all boils down to the rider. wait a second thats what i've been trying to say the whole time!
I am confused LMAO!!!
Tarmac cornering is not very relevant to this debate. Nor is Moto, where their bikes weights are still too heavy and can dominate the riders weight more easily.
This is about a trail bike though, and there are tighter corners on trails, and less momentum. Here the benefit is a lighter rear end, the centralized weight becomes more at one with the riders weight, rather than out back, and is easier controlled.
Fellow class mate. Started in 07 graduated may 2012. With an NAAB-accredited Master of Architecture degree. That ain't no bullshit trade degree, dumbass.
This isn't the first debate about this issue on Downhill bikes and definitely won't be the last. But really it should be. Like the new demo, DH bikes going carbon are only a lb or two less and are carbon for strength only. There isn't much room for improvement on a DH bike's weight. DH originally started with tiny everyday hardtails then made big and bulky for strength and where/are still fast. There was an article here on pinkbike about the past DH a few months ago. To make them lighter, even with carbon, the frames need to be slimmer and that would just be a step back. I guess we all need to step back and ride lighter hardtails in DH again so we can enjoy lighter, faster bikes and more broken bones when the bike splits in half. These gearboxes are a great progression in biking. Far less parts to bash in DH and keeps the bulky rigidity DH bikes need especially right at the crank where the majority of the rider's weight stands. Want to ride DH? Forget riding light. It's not designed for it. Going light is a step back in DH.
Could a belt system work here instead of chain? Would that help with chain/belt growth?
imagine a bike with no chain, with a belt... it could be possible, like in motorbikes
no more cleaning and greasing the chain, no more transmission kits worn out...
We ordered two Nicolai Helius AM Pinion in November for an attempted delivery date end of february, no problem untill that day. In February, I received a phone call from our french distributor who spoke to us for end of march than .... end April or 2d week of May.
This famous week, we were waiting for such a long time, I received an email from our french distributor in which one Nicolai and Pinion are talking about a delivery date for end July. This email contained a Pdf from Nicolai and Pinion in date of the the previous week.
Working in mechanical design for several years, it seems to me that you perfectly kneew that you were going to be late two or three weeks before sending this famous email.
Reading this forum, you are speaking of a delivery date in August of that year, lightweight gearbox, downhill gearbox and so much more....
Our order is still going on... untill that day. What would happen if all of us, fifty or a hundred of us were canceling our order after waiting, and waiting, and waiting.
So could you please give a real delivery date... before we get all bored after waiting, and waiting.... with nothing else in the garage than my road bike and an expensive dream.
You might know that we are only a few of us to be crazy enough to spend 8500€ in a bike.
Best regards.
Lionel
Everything that's wrong with the world we live in now, in one line.. BANG!
There was a Honda-patented variable transmission that was supposed to be on the racebikes, but it never worked out. The final design, the one that was raced by GM, was basically a derailleur mech that operated in an enclosed box - chains, cassette and everything. Of course, it was higher tech than that, but not exactly a gearbox as we understand it..Check out the shifter if you can Google the pics - it's a modified Shimano XTR trigger. This info came from a mid-season tech story that I was involved in when the bikes were competing on the WC circuit. The possibility that Honda developed a third, geared tranny was well within their power.
Honda, like most motorsports companies, crushes almost all of its promotional equipment that is used internationally - racebikes, cars, you name it.
It does save historical examples for its museum. I'll bet a tooney that GM's bike is there.
RC