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SRAM Granted Patent for Drivetrain With a Direct Mount Derailleur

May 18, 2021 at 16:13
by Mike Kazimer  

When SRAM first announced their Universal Derailleur Hanger (UDH), it was touted as a way to ensure that finding a replacement would be an easy and relatively inexpensive task. It turns out there might be more to the story, at least based on a patent that was recently granted to SRAM's German division with the catchy title of 'Drive arrangement for a bicycle.'

The patent language describes what sounds like a fairly typical drivetrain, but the illustrations make it clear that there are difference between this derailleur design and SRAM's current offerings. The derailleur uses a direct mount design, and the body is tucked much further underneath the chainstay compared to what's currently the norm.

It appears that if a frame was designed to use a UDH, then it would be compatible with this new derailleur. In other words, the UDH acted as a benevolent Trojan horse, bringing inexpensive replacement hangers to consumers while also opening the door other mounting possibilities, which seems like a smart way to introduce a new standard.

It should be noted that the first patent applications for this design were submitted back in 2018, and the patent was granted in April of 2021, so some of the illustrations seen here may be familiar. Shimano also deserves a nod for introducing a direct mount derailleur back in 2012, although that didn't really change the orientation of the derailleur in relation to the frame, and it also never really caught on.


According to the background portion of the patent, “A rear derailleur configured for greater stiffness may omit an intentionally weak mount. In this configuration, it may be beneficial to locate the rear derailleur at a relatively inboard position so as to protect the rear derailleur and frame in the event of an impact.” As the gear range of cassettes has grown wider, derailleur cages have grown longer, which means they're more exposed to potential impacts. It looks like this design could potentially allow for a shorter cage derailleur, or at the very least help keep it out of harm's way. In addition, an overall stiffer rear derailleur would help with shifting performance, a benefit when you're dealing with a 10-54 tooth 12-speed cassette.

The new derailleur design also seems to do away with the conventional B-tension screw, the one that can sometimes back out and throw a derailleur out of adjustment. According to the patent, the positioning will still be adjustable during installation, but once the derailleur is in place it's designed to stay in that orientation. “The rear gear changer has at least an adjustment state and an installed state. In the adjustment state, the gear changer mounting unit is not fully secured and may be rotationally adjusted about the rear axis. This adjustment state may be used to rotationally align the rear gear changer for proper tension of the chain.”

SRAM GX AXS
As the range of 1x drivetrains has increased, so has the length of the derailleur cage. Could SRAM's new design be the key to regaining some ground clearance?

The patent also includes detailed description about how the chain will interact with the front chainring and cassette, although nothing stands out as being that different from the methods SRAM currently employs. However, when (or if) this drivetrain moves from concept to reality it wouldn't be surprising to see it include features designed to improve its ability to shift under power.

Will we see this new derailleur in the real world any time soon? That's a good question - so far we haven't seen anything in the wild, and SRAM's response was 'no comment,' but with racing starting to ramp up we'll be keeping a close eye on SRAM's athletes to see if they're running anything out of the ordinary.


235 Comments

  • 179 4
 If you have UDH equipped bike, you can run this, or any derraileur from any brand you want. If your new steed comes with one of these, and happened to want to change to Shimano... You just need a $15 hanger. No one loses.

But, it this is actually a better mousetrap, there will be only one choice. Seems like a rare combination of brilliant marketing and engineering, in concert vs. covering for one another.
  • 108 2
 Not gunna lie, I really can’t be mad at this. Actually kind of impressed at the slick move.

Nicely played, SRAM.
  • 6 3
 @ninjatarian: ditto... I'm not a Shimano fanboy, but I definitely mean Shimano. This is cool, and one more reason I'll probably give SRAM another go down the road.
  • 86 5
 When you eventually bend or brake this derailleur, you will have to buy a new one instead of a 15$ to 40$ derailleur hanger. I would put this on any bike other than a mountain bike.
  • 3 49
flag juansevo (May 18, 2021 at 17:08) (Below Threshold)
 @jfcarrier: the der hangar is replaceable.
  • 70 0
 @juansevo: you came straight to the comment section didn't you?
  • 50 9
 Here's are article with real information about how this thing actually works that was written a month ago.

wheelbased.com/2021/04/08/rear-gearshift-mechanism-for-coaxial-installation-by-sram
  • 7 8
 @WheelBased: Did they just jock your style Mr.Based? That's messed up!
  • 30 8
 @SexyBiker69420, there’s no ‘style jocking’ here (did I get my slang right?) - we’ve been writing these types of tech articles for years. It’s newsworthy because the patent was recently granted, and the illustrations provide a good glimpse of what might be on the way.
  • 34 12
 @mikekazimer: WheelBased got robbed.
  • 7 1
 Ze Germans have finally done it. Peak dereilleur shifting is near
  • 34 0
 As long as it still requires a team of engineers to set the B tension screw I'm in!
  • 1 0
 @jfcarrier: seems like other derailleur parts are going to break way before this huge hanger. So breaking you're derailleure with the old our new model, you know the next step
  • 34 0
 @jfcarrier: Do people still bend hangers these days? I haven't for over a decade, seems to me that they have been building derailleurs to break before the hanger for ages.
  • 12 34
flag thedirtyburritto (May 18, 2021 at 23:19) (Below Threshold)
 @ninjatarian: Keep in mind that this will increase the price of all shimano bikes by that 15 bucks or whatever the UDH actually costs. Whether the end consumer sees this price difference is irrelevant. Either the bike maker swallows it *highly unlikely* or price of all bikes in the range are calculated to cover the cost of UDH, whether the bike has one or not.

This was a sly move by SRAM to push into a position where product managers who are on the fence regarding specification on certain models, will most likely lean towards SRAM simply on price.

Customers may finally have a better shifting SRAM bike, but in doing so, all bikes will be a bit more expensive.
The only real world benefit would be if this actually catches on, is that finding a new hanger at some random shop will be much easier, and that is indeed a win, but it could have been done without the slimy business practices.

I think its a shit way of doing business. You are either technically better, have a better price, or you are SRAM.
  • 44 3
 @thedirtyburritto, retail price for a UDH is only $15, so the final price of a bike that uses one wouldn’t raise nearly that much. Plus, we’ve already seen fairly widespread adoption of the design - off the top of my head Santa Cruz, Nukeproof, Specialized, Canyon, Trek and Norco all have bikes that use a UDH.

I don’t really see how it’s a slimy business practice - the UDH makes a ton of sense, especially if you’ve ever struggled to find a replacement derailleur hanger for a bike without a dealer in your area. It works with all brands of derailleur, and if implementing it also allows for new derailleur designs in the future that seems like a benefit to me.
  • 5 2
 @thedirtyburritto: I don't really understand how it's going to make Shimano bikes more expensive, as they are already having to specify a hanger on bike using Shimano and SRAM derailleur - surely if SRAM then removes the need for a hanger from their derailleur they will just keep the price the same as they are currently, saving the frame manufacturer £15 (unlikely), or they will increase the cost of their derailleur by £15 (likely), at which point you have parity on price again... If anything surely the UDH means that frame designers don't have to design their own hanger for each model, thereby saving time, effort and cost vs designing and testing one from scratch.

If the suggestion is that it's 'slimy' for SRAM to innovate in ways that may decrease the price of their products vs Shimano, and that they should in some way do Shimano a favour by keeping parity on price, then that's just insane. If what they are doing is as you describe then it's 'good' business, and will hopefully get Shimano to respond by innovating and/or lowering the prices on their products - that way we can all have better products for less money, it's the way it's always gone.
  • 6 0
 Having struggled to find the proper DH and keeping a small stockpile for each frame I own I think it is a great idea. In a world of ever changing bike standards I think people should count this as a win. ...if they release boost, boost plus, and boost exravaganza versions in a few years I'll retract my statement.
  • 2 2
 @TobiasHandcock: Stop using SLX mechs.
  • 4 3
 @mikekazimer: So is the gear hanger just now connected to derailleur rather than frame, than other way round, just more built in obsolesces of other frames or mechs?
New ideas are not all ways better from company that thought 29.999 was good?
  • 3 2
 @jfcarrier: amen. Besides the fact that I find Sram RD more prone to twist than Shimano RD.
I bang my hangar, and after placing a new one (i allways carry one), tge RD X01, was bent/twisted.

Question: on the trail, if I bend or brake the RD, and not the Hangar, I'll need a) UDH hangar, and b) Rear Derailleur, correct?
  • 7 2
 @jfcarrier: I think Srams plan is to show people how resilient the derailleur can be to impact. The new axs stuff has a break away clutch and is pretty impressive, mine looks like it’s been dragged down the road behind my truck and still works flawlessly. Also with new der hangers most of the broken hangers I see require a new derailleur anyway.
  • 1 1
 it's a mutualistic form of marketing. create a foundation for proprietary-ish stuff, while also allowing an alternative that everybody universally conforms to. I ain't even mad. it's a win-win situation.
  • 3 0
 @WheelBased: Classy................
  • 1 1
 I just hope the udh continues to be $15.... There's nothing to stop Sram from raising that price.
  • 4 2
 @NielsensBicycles: @NielsensBicycles: If SRAM would add a break away mechanism on their mechanical derailleur as well, than this design would make a ton of sens. It could be very simple like a shear pin that you could get a bag of 5 spares for 1$.
  • 1 0
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: Is there also another section at pinkbike?
  • 2 0
 @jfcarrier: That is essentially the concept of a derailleur hanger already; a cheap replaceable part that will bend or snap before the frame or derailleur. The hanger used to be a permanent part of the frame.
  • 1 0
 @jfcarrier: that goes for literally every derailleur... so I dont see your point?
  • 2 0
 @Dirtdestroyer1: The main benefit of this new design is rigidity (for shifting precision). You cannot make a standard or UDH derailleur hanger very rigid because it would defeat its purpose : to bend when the derailleur is hit.If you have a derailleur hanger, a break away system is not relevant.
  • 1 0
 @jfcarrier: I've never had a derailleur survive a hanger-bending-impact anyway... BUT, I think it's important to note that this new design allows the derailleur to swing around its axle mount which should help reduce the impact in the first place.
With the current design of derailleur hanger, the pivot that the derailleur swings around under impact (the main mounting bolt) is pretty close to being in-line with the front of the derailleur, so an impact to the front (like hitting a rock) has a relatively short lever arm to move the derailleur out of the way. As a result a lot of the impact will go into the derailleur and hanger.
With this new design, the pivot point is significantly higher up, so an impact to the front of the derailleur can swing it under the pivot more easily, this should mean less energy being transmitted into the parts and instead that energy working to accelerate the derailleur out of the way. (which should be relatively harmless).
  • 2 0
 @kcy4130: I haven’t looked into it, but is SRAM the only one who can fabricate the UDH patent wise? I thought they just threw it into the wild purposely as an open standard so it got widespread adoption.

Ideally anyone can make a UDH so sram pricing on it is irrelevant, and makes finding spares super easy.
  • 1 0
 @tkrug: @kcy4130: There are already other companies that are making their own version of the UDH. North Shore Billet has one and I wouldn't be surprised to see more.
  • 2 0
 @Spencermon: yeah I googled it after and confirmed … but the edit button was already gone!
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer: You did fine. I think SB69420 should've used 'swingin from my nuts' instead, however.
  • 1 0
 @ninjatarian: I agree. But a break away mechanism that does not induce flexilibilty for the derailleur alignment with the cassette would be a great step forward. In other words : I think the replaceable hanger was poor solution. The UDH is a better solution. The AXS break away clutch thing is much more interesting. We need an equivalent solution for the mechanical stuff.
  • 2 1
 @jfcarrier:

In two years .
Broken 3 derailleurs . Broken 0 hangers .
  • 5 0
 TBH I thought the reason we had derailleur hangers was to save the frame, not the derailleur?!
  • 1 0
 @WheelBased: Excellent write up. Seems a bit fiddly with respect to wheel installation. Thaat said, especially with modern tubeless set ups, should be little reason to remove it unless your changing rubber. I wonder how this will affect ABP / Split design bikes? ( i left THAT in they're on purpose btw. Wink
  • 3 0
 @friendlyfoe: Yes to this. Take a look at the deraileur hangers from Yeti and Ibis. Those are NOT designed to be flimsy. They were so WHEN your deraileur gets destroyed, it doesn't take a $300- $1000 swing arm with it. Or BITD your entire $500 -$800 rigid bike frame (corrected to "now" dollars that would be about $850-$1450).
Hell check out the drop outs on a Banshee or RSD for that matter.
  • 1 0
 @jfcarrier: Would be nice if could get replacement derailleur cage, as this is part most likely damaged, but unlikely to carry a spare, like you would with a hanger?
  • 1 0
 @G-Sport: Depends on what gear you are in, due to chain tension?
  • 2 0
 @jethromtbr: Thank you, sir. And, ya it's a strange one. We'll see if it ever actually sees the light of day.
  • 1 0
 @friendlyfoe:
And a little plastic gauge you have to bring with you, to confirm proper setup.
  • 2 0
 @mikekazimer: thanks for taking a moment in between bong rips to leave me an edgy response. Now I find your media organization even more respectable.
  • 1 1
 @jfcarrier: They can/should make the part that breaks a $15-40 part of the derailleur that is designed to be sacrificial adding the minimum possible impact to the rest of the derailleur's parts, so it can potentially be a net-gain for all of us. We might pay a tad more $, but get universal compatibility for all future frame manufacturers adopting this.
  • 1 1
 @D1omidis: They could acheive what you describ with a 0.10$ shear pin. SRAM please contact me if you need ideas of how to do this... You can pay me in bike components!
  • 1 2
 @TobiasHandcock: Then you haven't been riding hard enough, get off the "flow" trails and ride the mountain.
  • 112 0
 The application date would coincide well with the expiry of a Suntour patent for a direct mount rear derailleur they debuted in 1993 for a hybrid group that was placed in about the exact same spot. This is a photo of that S-1 group rear derailleur... it was only ever featured on one bike, the Schwinn CrissCross before suntour's merger with SR Sakae to form SR Suntour, and then most all the old projects got discontinued.

4.bp.blogspot.com/-sKyrXRBpGD8/V78Pu-gVN2I/AAAAAAAAKuY/5RwnI2DxsEACbFN9-CQQ4UfqYtFhg3eFQCLcB/s1600/93%2Bschwinn%2Bcrisscross.jpg
  • 18 0
 I remember this.


I am old.

Frown
  • 15 1
 You’re like a godam professor
  • 38 0
 This is an incredible level of bike geekery and I don't feel worthy
  • 1 0
 mounting from there just don look right
  • 2 0
 @DAN-ROCKS: it also won't work quite right, as there is less real estate for wheel removal (with the parallelogram in the way)
  • 2 0
 That's an excellent layout, letting the parallelogram naturally follow the cassette more closely. Shame it never took off, though obviously would have been a bit of a pain with lots of suspension bikes that have come since (Horst Link designs and high-stay bikes like Orange)
  • 1 0
 Chain wrap yo! I wonder if that design would increase cassette life. Actually wondering, because in Pinkbike world I'm decidedly not an engineer.
  • 4 0
 Suntour, always the leader in innovation.
  • 5 0
 @Jayx4: Lots of things that people take for granted today in cycling were their ideas. The modern Slant Parallelogram derailleur body, which is what made reliable index shifting possible.... was patented by them (and then outright stolen by Shimano, Campagnolo and SRAM). Also they were the first major drivetrain maker to break away from the old road touring bike based bolt circle diameter for chainrings when they introduced microdrive to the market in 1992 (and shimano again copied almost immediately, albeit this time with a slight difference in the inner bolt pattern but the mid-outer ring pattern was identical)..
  • 2 0
 @ReformedRoadie: Yep me too. At the time Suntour had the BEST mtb system going then. Deore and SIS came along..... My 31 yr old Deore DX shifter just died this winter. Frown
  • 1 0
 @deeeight: Oh these kids... Gawsh! (runs thumbs thoughtfully up and down suspender straps) A woman (25) I worked with was shocked when she found out that mountain biking and snowboarding were "invented" uhh... recently. I showed her a pick of my first "real" MTB from 1991. The year prior same model was Suntour components.
  • 96 4
 I just wanna say I 100% called it.... Sept 7th at 9:45pm
m.pinkbike.com/news/sram--universal-derailleur-hanger-udh-eurobike-2019.html
And I Quote "I think most of you are missing the higher picture. The standard mount for a derailleur is quite antiquated. Imagine if companies world wide got on board with a new hanger design. This opens opportunities to improve the derailleur system. Currently there are limitations to this. B tension plates snapping, the flopping back and forth of the whole derailleur on the B tension. TRP has the hall lock which essentially locks the derailleur forward. I see this as the next step in bettering the drivetrain. This is definitely not geared towards unifying the industry standard in order to bring ease to the consumer. Proprietary is great for big companies like SRAM, it helps them keep market shares, and forces other companies to up their game. I for one am on board, but not for simplicity, or ease... But for innovation and improvement."...

Just sayin'
  • 19 1
 And no one upvoted you then...fools!
  • 66 0
 My cartoon brain was hoping that it direct mounted to the biggest cog so the derailleur rotated around with every revolution of the cassette.
  • 70 11
 So instead of a crash breaking a relatively inexpensive hanger, we will now break an expensive derailleur. Logic
  • 11 13
 What if the derailleur doesn't bend easily? And maybe that mounting thing is replaceable.
  • 18 1
 I wonder if the open cage (labeled 144) at the attachment point is designed to bend/twist/break under force and be replaceable. If so that would be even more universal than the UDH in a sense- the hanger would be built in to the derailleur instead of the bike, making it universal across all sram products.
  • 11 2
 to their credit, sram has an extensive spare parts catalogue and spares are available pretty much everywhere. That saved my X01 derailleur last year and that's not the only one I know of. So hopefully that mounting piece will also be available separately...
  • 7 1
 I think its called good business strategy or something like that. It does look replaceable. Just as the 42 tooth ring on xx1 11 speed cassette are. When they launched they said they were replaceable and implied they would sell replacements. Which they never did. So you had to buy a new and very expensive cassette when your granny gear wore out Eventually other companies came to the party so you could replace just the granny gear. So I presume the same will happen here The trouble with hangers being the sacrificial weak spot is that if the bend a bit. Then your gears go to sh1t and it is very difficult to bend back to the right position in 3d of space. Or even know that it is the hanger is out of wack Pulling apart the parallelogram is possible but very Fiddly. And new circlips would be advisable
  • 3 1
 You’re assuming it isn’t designed to break at the hangar.
  • 2 0
 I was asuming it was designed to break as other companies would come to the party. But also being stiffer and stronger at the same time.
You would not want yor chainstay to break @juansevo:
  • 10 0
 or worse, damage the frame
  • 4 0
 @slumgullion: In that case you would just break the frame
  • 2 0
 @juansevo: that’s an astute observation, everyone else is missing this important feature.
  • 3 0
 @AlanT-NZ: this is my exact concern with this.
  • 4 0
 @slumgullion: mech into wheel endgame
  • 3 0
 @alflorez1: 144 looks like the worst thing to manufacture, so it will be expensive as f*ck
  • 2 0
 Exactly my thoughts, talk of a stiffer derailleur needing to be further inboard makes me concerned about my frame, never mind the mech...
  • 2 0
 @sargey2003: but then, instead of people complaining about low hanging fragile SRAM derailleurs, they will say 'wow, SRAM derailleurs are so bombproof that the frame gets damaged before the derailleur does!'.
  • 4 0
 Hangers are so stout these days, it's more common to see a broken mech than hanger. To make a hanger stiff enough for the tight tolerances for 12speed you can loose the break away ability. When Shimano made their direct mount mechs with a much stiffer mount and there wasn't mass outcry due to too many smashed mechs because hangers are just that stout and 11 speed mechs were sturdy too. Back in the day if your hanger broke, you went and bought an NSB billet hanger that was stronger than your frame anyway and you were happier for it.
  • 1 0
 @spudlord: IDK about this design in particular, but stiffness and strength can be separate. Many CF parts are very stiff but shatter on impact. Stiffness can even be engineered in only one direction. No idea how this unit is designed, but it can be done.
  • 1 0
 @Warburrito: Oh I agree, there are some clever designs possible but for the cost conscious and the design constrains of contemporary hangers it tends to end up with just more high grade aluminium material being used.
If you suggest a carbon fibre mech hanger to pinkbike to ensure it is sacrificial you will be burned at the stake.
  • 1 0
 @alflorez1: okay, I know your mechanical abilities, you very well may be able to swap part #144 on the side of the trail without loss of important small parts. But I'm concerned about average Joe/Jane that have difficulties swapping a traditional hanger, trailside or at home. Plus labor costs, how much are you going to charge to replace part #144, in comparison to a UDH or other "traditional" hanger? Miss you buddy, we need to ride this summer!
  • 3 0
 Many people seem to think the replaceable derailleur hanger was created to save the derailleur. That is incorrect. The derailleur hanger used to be a part of the dropout; when manufacturers switched to aluminum frames if the hanger bent it would usually break in short order. The replaceable hanger was created to save your *frame*.
  • 32 0
 The frame is designed to break to save the hanger
  • 32 8
 It's almost like UDH wasn't a unselfish act for the good of the industry after all.
  • 66 4
 I don't think good for the industry and good for SRAM are mutually exclusive here... I like how non-disruptive this approach is, and am excited to see where it goes. If it's better, it's better. And if it's not, we still have the excellent, sensible UDH standard.
  • 8 6
 Why is my derailleur loose after every ride with the UDH??? I can tell mid-ride it’s happening as the shifting is going to sh!t… I know it’s just a damn screw and tapped hole, but is anyone else having this issue? Is everyone else running loctite on theirs???
  • 10 1
 @audeo03: loctite is pretty standard for derailleur attachments
  • 6 0
 @audeo03: I don't even have UDH, but...yes? It's a part that is constantly being shaken/move/vibrating, if you don't want it to come apart it needs some sort of threadlocker.
  • 6 3
 @audeo03: cuz the UDH is plastic trash.
  • 2 1
 @Trudeez: umm...they're not supposed to be plastic...unless I'm missing a joke here or something
  • 1 0
 @audeo03: Try Araldite on the threads. I use it instead of Loctite. Once set (5mins), it's resistant to vibration, although, when you need to undo it, a sharp snap of the spanner/allen key will undo it. I use it almost exclusively now... it works wonders on diesel fittings as well. Diesel won't degrade it and is still easily undone.
  • 1 0
 @gabrielreichman: all the ones I've come across this far have been plastic (I think its fiber reinforced nylon....but still plastic). And not on budget bikes either, talking $9k builds with plastic hangers.
  • 24 7
 The future is the GREAR⚙BOX, but it's still not in their interest to evolve in order to evolve it!
When they start, they will present themselves as the perfect inventors / designers / engineers! Just LOL!
  • 4 0
 Pretty much the whole industry is working on them. It´s just really hard to beat the qualities of the external drivetrain. 1000 concepts where just beaten by the current tech. The concept which seems most promissing is still the shimano one.
www.pinkbike.com/news/shimano-gearbox-in-the-works-files-patents-on-hybrid-roller-chain-sequential-shifting-transmission.html
But there are a bunch of details to solve on a new system. And as everyone knows, Shimano needs a decade before going in production. Maybe a smaller company is still quicker with a bit less refined product, but honestly I see this concept as the most feasable in the upcoming years
  • 1 3
 @ferrariharry:
Thanks for the response!

The article was on 8 / 10 / 2019 !
I think if they were really interested we would have a lot more of them!
I think it just suits them to evolve the existing system piece by piece, taking advantage of us as consumers!
I hope to be understood !?
  • 2 0
 @TARTARA: There are two brands, pinion and effigear, who now are sharing the same interface. It's coming.

Right now, the currents drivetrains are actually really efficient, that is a required quality for a human powered vehicle, so it makes sense to keep it that way. In some case where efficiency isn't as critical, gearboxes are coming. E-bikes (valeo motor+box), cargo bikes, downhill bikes,... there will be probably more gearboxes in some precise categories of bikes than derailleurs. But not everywhere. XC/road/enduro bikes, and so on, will always benefit from efficiency much more than anything else.
  • 1 2
 @faul:
Do you want to tell me that in the year of 2021 and with so much technology that we hold even in our hands, that they can't upgrade/develop further on this sector !?
I think/believe they just prefer to have us as loyal customers!
I think it's much reliable and much better behave having all this mass, in its center !
  • 2 0
 @TARTARA: We can't really beat physics, even with technology from the future. Adding cogs (with some friction) will reduce efficiency. We can minimise it at a point internal frictions are less than mud induced frictions, but not much more.
  • 1 1
 @faul:
I think we see it from a completely different angle!
Thanks, anyway !
  • 1 0
 @TARTARA: It´s 40% milking the old cow and 60% really just not finding a robust concept or getting a existing robust. The Nr.1 topic on bike parts is, that the customer is abusing the S**t out of their bike and there is no understanding for issues like you have on a car for example. Most of the concepts are just old car tech packed into a bike. And to built a gearbox that can handle abuse is really hard to built.
  • 1 0
 @ferrariharry:
I respect the opinions of all of you!
But let me have my own!
It is about 90% the exploitation of the consumer and his pocket,
and a small 10% percentage of the type
"where to make all these changes in the process of the industry, leave them as they are"!
Thank you all very much!
  • 1 0
 @faul: There are many ways to design a gear reduction.

Rohloff hub is generally within 1% of the efficiency of derailleurs, because planetary gearsets allow minimal gears with the effective gear being determine which combination you use.

One can also make a system that at its core has a 3 speed planetary gearbox through the cranks, which i turn drives 3 short chains linked to 3 different size cogs, and use a clutch based mechanism to select which cog gets linked to the output shaft.
  • 28 11
 This is a brilliant design. Soooooo much better to replace a $200 bent derailleur than a $20 dropout hangar. Nice work SRAM. Always with our best interests in mind.
  • 24 5
 The number of times a rock (or crash) has blown up or broken a rear derailleur far outnumbers the times the hanger broke and the derailleur was fine. This is speaking from 5+ years of running guided trips with lots of mountain bikers.

In fact, I can only remember one time the hanger broke and the derailleur was OK. But I’ve replaced lots of broken derailleurs over the years.
  • 20 1
 @stevemokan: Excellent, so let's transfer that extra force that the hangar would otherwise take onto the already besieged derailleur, or better yet into the axle. What could possibly go wrong? And in my ~20 years of riding since replaceable hangar became common, I have fragged at least one on each bike. Even had one bend in the middle of a stage race but was able to replace it trailside and not DNF the whole event. I also bent the integrated hangar on one frame. I have only ever ruined one derailleur that hit a rock and went into the spokes. I prefer the failsafe of the hangar.
  • 4 1
 @stevemokan: Exactly. And this pushes the derailleur inboard a little bit, which should keep it safer.
  • 10 0
 @stevemokan: LOL you seem to think it has to break to do it's job.
I've had plenty of bent hangers and that is a sign they are doing their job- saving the RD.

Remove the easily bendable part and what breaks instead?- you got it the RD.
They even mention they tuck it further in to protect it.
"A rear derailleur configured for greater stiffness may omit an intentionally weak mount. In this configuration, it may be beneficial to locate the rear derailleur at a relatively inboard position so as to protect the rear derailleur and frame in the event of an impact."
  • 6 1
 @cerealkilla: Don’t disagree with much of what you say there, but in fairness the original Shimano Hone and Saint rear mechs attached directly through the rear wheel axle, avoiding the normal hanger fixing completely. And I believe that was done to offer a more impact resilient design at the time.
Obviously it never really caught on; it’ll be interesting at least to see what SRAM come up with..

www.mbr.co.uk/reviews/products/shimano-hone-rear-derailleur-44-95
  • 2 1
 @Corinthian: I whine and moan about new standards all the time....but in reality, I continue to run SRAM on both my bikes, and like their technology. I don't have an engineering degree and ultimately the bike I have today is light years ahead of what I had ten years ago. If I experience a rash of broker ders though, the pitchforks and torches are coming out!
  • 1 0
 Actually, this would allow them to design a connection point that would rotate backwards under impact. If you take a look at the UDH and the way it works currently, it would behave in that exact manner. Things we need to remember are as things evolve, certain issues arise as we go. Getting into 12 speed, the spacing between cogs is so minimal, and deflection of the derailleur would cause an imperfect shift. Notice the DWG has a lattice type structure. Not only would this allow for a stiffer interface, it would also allow for a much stronger derailleur. The X-horizon design in itself would deflect inward under side impact as well. Ultimately, what I would expect is something stronger, lighter, and much more precise based off the blueprints shown. It's easy to be skeptical, but in this day in age, companies like sram don't have the luxury to produce something that isn't an improvement. This also forces shimano to continue to answer. When sram released the UDH this is exactly what I predicted would happen.
  • 1 0
 The mount for the derailleur is most likely going to be replaceable
  • 1 0
 @Rogueuniform77: Take a look at fig.16 I doubt that. More likely they will develop it to take an impact.
  • 5 0
 I thought the primary aim of the replaceable hanger was to protect the frame from irreparable damage. Hangers and to a lesser extent the RD are expendable and cheaper to replace
  • 1 1
 @stevemokan: as guide, I suppose you ride with all sort of riders and levels.
If I rode my bikes with my daughters, I wouldn't need:
1) a new FS bike... no need! My 1986 mtb would be more than enough
2) I would need to change tyres every 10 or 15 years, after all those cracks appear!

Reality?
One Magic Mary lasted less than 50km, due to a rock that just cutted the side wall like a butcher!

Derailleurs? It depends on the luck! But in my worts year, had to replace at least 2 times.

So... it doesn't matter really on kms, or failleurs you have.

As general thumb rule, equipment will fail from all sorts of ocassions.
Being hard to find a replacement is for me a No-No.
  • 2 0
 @Corinthian: Yup, I came here to say this myself!
  • 2 1
 @stevemokan: nah. I've been a mountain bike mechanic off and on since 2005. I've straightened literally thousands of derailleur hangers that took a hit that probably would have broken the derailleur if it was direct mount.
  • 2 0
 Hanger's job is to save the frame not the derailleur.
  • 14 0
 I had a direct mount Saint Der 15 years ago. How is this new?
  • 1 0
 Holy... it was that long ago. I feel like I just picked up a discount saint hub & RD the other day as it never really caught on. Time flies, man.
  • 2 0
 @phobospwns: Right?!!! I mean, fact that it wasn’t a clutched mech back then makes this very different tech, but no one is selling me on this being a “new” idea.
  • 12 0
 Current SRAM derailleurs hang way out in harms way compared to Shimano because of patent issues. This is a really long game way to get around that.
  • 10 0
 Good way to make eagle derailleurs wobble a bit less than their typical 45° in both directions
  • 10 1
 Sram has some occasionally great engineers. They are a company ruined by accountants and business majors.
  • 11 2
 Go away with your 10-54 cassette...
  • 3 0
 You know this ends with a disk wheel that meshes with the Ceramic speed drive train and gives the equivalent of a 102 tooth cog.
  • 5 0
 About time in this day and age that we stop pissing around with derailleurs and concentrate on refining gearboxes. It staggers me that this has not happened. Riding around on electric bikes with derailleurs attached to them. Bonkers!
  • 3 0
 Interesting point. I wonder if ebikes will be the catalyst for wider use of IGHs and then the technology will trickle to analogue drivetrains?
  • 2 0
 @iamamodel: The issue is friction , weight, and cost. It never really caught on as they typically have more friction, and we're extremely heavy in comparison to its derailleur counterpart. Cost is the next issue, gearboxes are generally very expensive to manufacture, and the cost of replacing a gear box doesn't get any better as your costs don't get better.
The dawn of $15000 ebikes is making the astronomical costs were seeing, a bit desensitizing, and thus from a cost perspective and the more mainstream we're seeing 3D printing results look more and more positive, this is also an area weight is controllable without sacrificing strength.
I do believe we're on the verge of feasably making gearboxes at a competitive price, and be precise enough to properly negate any excess friction. Only time will tell, but what dictates acceptable cost on the market dictates the innovation timline...
  • 2 0
 @jomacba: Note that the Rohloff was the same weight as XTR when it came out - but stubborness within the company means no real improvements. Also, it lasts for... No-one knows. It's overbuilt which means it can be lighter if you only want it to last, I dunno, ten times longer than any derailleur system. And now look at lifetime cost - it is cheap. When Mrs Rohloff dies and let's go of the company, you'll see a dramatic change I reckon. Also note that friction isn't that much more than a derailleur system because people quote gearbox friction values assuming there is none in derailleur systems. It's not a myth, just inaccurate.
  • 1 0
 @iamamodel: From an MSRP perspective I would agree, however what does the bulk cost look like? What you and I pay is quite a bit differant than what specialized or santa cruz pay. Especially when it comes to sram.
That being said, the current iteration of the drivetrain is quite reliable, user friendly, and rather durable. Adding in Sram's warranty which is part of what you pay for when you purchase their products.
  • 1 0
 @jomacba: As long as they are still using gearwheels they will never be able to beat the efficiency/weight/cost topic. Efficiency is really hard to measure accurately and connecting this to real efficiency on the final bike in daily use is even harder. That´s why no company is really marketing with efficiency.
@iamamodel: I did this benchmark about a year ago and Rohloff is very far away from the other competitors. And lifetime of a product doesn´t interest you when you´re hitting a trail with your buddy and he´s 2timer faster cause you are running a extra kg on your back wheel. A compeatable product needs exacly, that it´s just better than a external drivetrain on the first ride
  • 1 0
 Just gears in a box, but by sealing the chain, is what I tried to do 12 years ago, but problem is sealed gears make less money due to how long they last?
But had that in 1920s
  • 1 0
 @jomacba: If that were true, would have a derailleur in a box, which is not allowed to happen!
  • 1 0
 @aljoburr: I'm not sure I fully understand what your trying to say... If your referring to an internally housed drivetrain of current iteration, it's been done. Take a look at the Honda bike that was piloted by non other than Greg Minnaar
  • 1 0
 @jomacba: No I am saying that you could put covers over standard mech set up, but since would make your drive last so much longer due to your chain not getting dirty, your not allowed to buy such a thing!
  • 1 0
 @aljoburr: Why aren't you allowed to buy such a thing?
  • 1 0
 @jomacba: If you make one your find out why?
  • 1 0
 @aljoburr: I don't feel that the lifespan of current drivetrains are terrible. So honestly I don't feel it's necessary. I'm just curious as to why your so adamant that this is an issue.
  • 1 0
 @jomacba: Never mind then, moving into season when long grass getting caught in jockey wheels is more of an issue than mud
But do keep hearing that people want a gearbox & wonder why no one else sees this solution?
Maybe no one else tends to ride overgrown trials trails
  • 1 0
 @aljoburr: where I ride, the trees are too big for grass to grow. I would love to see a gearbox, but I don't feel the quality and performance of current drivetrains are so terrible we need one. Where I feel we would gain is not in drivetrain performance, but suspension performance. However, ultimatly something needs to drive the rear wheel, and currently I see no better option than a cog/chain setup. To which unless the drivetrain runs on the exact axis as the frame pivots (which would present its own dynamics in regards to suspension design), you would require a chain tensioner, which would still have jockey wheels. I am 100% on board with a gearbox, but as I stated, what we have may not be perfect, but the pros greatly outweigh the cons currently in my opinion.
  • 6 0
 Maybe that will finally put an end to SRAM derailleurs coming loose off the hanger? Smile

(seriously, how is this not a more well known and discussed issue, i've seen it happen to dozens of bikes!)
  • 10 2
 It's not bad, but I want a gearbox!
  • 5 0
 Go buy one.
  • 2 0
 I want gearbox with a belt drivetrain and no weight penalty. Lol. Not optimistic I'll see that. Derailleurs work well, but still would want a cleaner more simple drivetrain.
  • 2 0
 @tacklingdummy: I don't even care about the weight penalty that much with some current options. But no way can I say I break enough derailleurs to justify the weight penalty AND the added drag on anything besides a pure DH bike.
  • 1 0
 Why? You can buy gearbox, it is not cheap and have disadvantages- why sram/shimano need to do this?
  • 1 0
 You can make your own, but you can not buy one?
  • 7 1
 Looks like something that might make sense for a gravel or road bike. On a Mountain bike this sould mean braking the derailler instead of the hanger, makes no sense
  • 56 0
 Pretty sure it’s meant to be used with a breakaway thru-axle, so upon impact the bike jettisons the derailleur and rear wheel simultaneously, avoiding any serious damage.
  • 1 0
 if the part of the derailleur that mounts to the frame was very strong, it would mean breaking the frame, since it sandwiches the dropout.
  • 3 3
 @albeant: that's even worse. at least with a bent der hanger, you can most likely still ride out if you're descending. if it breaks the axle, you can't even roll your bike out, you're carrying the bike and wheel back to the car.
  • 1 1
 @shralping-the-cube: Absolutely right—so this derailleur is obviously not suitable for rides that you drive to. Pretty sure it’s meant for rides without vehicle support, like remote backcountry bikepacking.
  • 1 2
 @albeant: that makes absolutely zero sense. they made a derailleur that's supposed to break the axle and "jettison" the rear wheel on a bikepacking bike? are you high?
  • 4 1
 @shralping-the-cube: It’s so crazy it’s almost like it was a joke. Whoosh!
  • 3 0
 Seems like this might not work well with some Horst link bikes, unless the clearance between the derailleur and the chainstay is increased in production from what's shown in the application
  • 5 0
 Yeah, BUT what about Driven™ they're gonna totally make this patent obsolete, just you wait and see. Wink
  • 3 0
 This would make every patent ever obsolete. Best concept of the century. The mental horizon of the inventors make Leonardo Davincis seem small. I´ve put all my bitcoins into the fundraise and already sold all my bikes, looking forward to buy the first bike, equiped with this new tech. Everyday before going to bed I pray for this to happen
  • 1 0
 Tried & failed to patent this concept, but reasons are more that made gearing components last too long?
So no you cant have sealed drive!
worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=GB&NR=2434565&KC=&FT=E&locale=en_EP
  • 6 0
 Its like the original Saint derailleur . A bit lighter but same concept
  • 2 0
 More detailed article from WheelBased: wheelbased.com/2021/04/08/rear-gearshift-mechanism-for-coaxial-installation-by-sram

FTA: "The big questions here is: does the bike dropout need to be a standard for this to work?"
  • 1 0
 It will work with dropouts already compatible with SRAM's UDH.
  • 2 0
 That’s a very specific patent and sort of bizarre how it claims the entire drivetrain making enforcement...weird? I mean, not that they would, but shimano could make the exact same derailluer design and you could spec it with a MRP ring and you’d be clear (since that’s not a narrow wide ring). Or, more hilariously, I think you could spec a friction shifter and be clear. Disclaimer, I am not a lawyer, but I have watched Law and Order.
  • 4 2
 Sorry to anyone receiving snotty replies on this subject , but more proprietary stuff with no benefit slid under the radar in broad daylight while the journalists (WHO PAY FOR NOTHING) ignore the blatantly obvious drawbacks and praise it because they are scared they will get found out if they stop drinking the industry koolaid and have to get a proper job, REALLY GETS ME TRIGGERED:

PB generally "Dont want more proprietary stuff"
PB when sram has a new part out "Buy this its the shit"
  • 2 0
 It’s worse than that. We pay for journalists to sell us the stuff brands give them. The customer is the only source of revenue to fund all the marketing and media
  • 5 0
 Where is DCA? gearboxes for everyone
  • 5 1
 Better the frame or derailleur break than an inexpensive, replaceable part.
  • 1 0
 For anyone who didn't catch the key catch phrase, it "seems like a smart way to introduce a new standard". Yet another new frame standard (cough: Trek) and a new derailleur hanger design and a new incompatible drivetrain system (cough: SRAM). Hambini's gonna have a field day when this shite comes out!
  • 1 0
 A direct mount rear derailluer seems like a terrible idea. That's just a recipe for destroyed rear triangles unless, unless, SRAM is designing in some kind of breakaway feature into the derailluer, but if you have that feature you may as well just have a hanger attached to the frame. I don't see the point of this. For what it's worth, 29ers do have a lot more derailluer clearance than their 27.5 and 26er brethren making that much less likely to get torn off by terrain. Still, I think a sacrificial piece to protect the frame is a good idea. That or a gear box, but we all know Pinion drives have their pitfalls...if only they'd put hypoid gears in those to reduce the friction...taking notes Pinion?
  • 1 0
 I've been riding long enough to remember when a selling feature of Sachs* top end rear derailleur was its shearing alluminum mounting bolt to save your frame by protecting your deraileur hanger. You could buy that bolt separate for what would be about $35 in todays dollars. *Sachs = German drivetrain co. Famous for their chain, bought out by some American company...... their name eludes me, think they invented GripShift though.
  • 1 0
 At DH speeds the whole shebang gets wiped off the bike like a bug on a windshield.. I'm surprised I haven't been ticketed for littering in some cases. So I have no dog in the der vs hanger fight, but I can still coast down for repairs and that is what matters. Shorter, tucked in, rigid mount- unless you're Gwin it will get smacked at some point and the important part is the result
  • 7 3
 Grrrrreat! A new standard, about time!
  • 7 7
 Shimano use to have direct mount based on syntance hanger, I would assume they will introduce fitting that easily brakes (also it allows tho shave additional 10 gr;

Anyway so far standards that sram brought that are quite nice:
- match maker
- UDH
- boost ( yep it Caspian at the begining, however now majority pf the frame and forks accept and old standard easily convertible )
- DUB
- Direct Mount
- 1x12 (that is cross compatible across all range (including Shimano)
- XD (everyone forgotten CB Shimano hubs that allowed smaller sprocket)

not so:
- torque caps
- boost for those who cannot ditch old wheel-sets or on CC hubs
  • 24 2
 Agree except - DUB

- 28.99 mm ????? can you EVER forgive that marketing campaign
- 2 foot breaker bar on an 8 mm allen key to remove your crank
- bearings that seem to wear out after 3 months of low power fat ass pedaling
- google "Hambini DUB" for the rest of the drubbing..................

You just need to move it down BELOW "NOT SO" but it is clear SRAM has done way more good than bad.
  • 1 1
 @dldewar: i was talking about intend, cannot speak about durability or marketing bs
  • 3 0
 @dldewar:

That’s hilarious and sad to hear that I’m not the only one. Literally today I purchased an air impact wrench and a 8mm hex driver to try to get mine out. We will see how that goes.
  • 1 0
 @dldewar: Seriously hate how much force it takes to remove the cranks. Many other options don't require it and work just as well.
  • 2 0
 @rideordie35: i did this a few years ago. Did not work.. had to call a friend who is a mechanic. «jamaican oil» and 1,5m arm for the wrench did the trick. Once you have gotten it loose once it’s easier the nex time(s)
  • 1 0
 @rideordie35: I used a pipe over the 8 mm Allen wrench and made sure the opposite crank didn't move. The scary part was the noise when it came undone.
  • 2 2
 @dldewar:
Dub bearings wearing out after 3 months is flat earth like delusional bullshit.
I have lot's of riders in my group that are already past 2 years without problems

You should stop taking that ever ranting Youtube BB salesman wisdom for granted.
  • 1 3
 @OneTrustMan: lots of riders in your group = what percentage of DUB BBs out there?

That's what I thought.
  • 1 0
 @rideordie35: Can just use boiling water on your crank arms to help expand so comes off easier, may not work so well on Aluminium axels though?
  • 1 0
 @OneTrustMan: I was joking about my power. I am a fat cyclist that puts out pro power on a pro sumo body. 3 months is correct. I ride long and often. The BB is likely seeing a little more stress that an average rider.

As for Hambini. I wish he would behave a little better but there is lots of good engineering in there. DUB is not that great. It’s not so much the 3 months but the fact that changing it out is a pain.
  • 1 0
 Never mind Sram(etc) - bring on the new age of gearbox frames(bikes) - i.e. no derailleur, less rear wheel weight, silent, 'nylon', never dropping belts, & better suspension performance... >.>
  • 3 0
 I mean technically old bikes/ shitty department store bikes have direct mount derailleurs too
  • 2 1
 Wow, looking at the patent drawing, then the picture of an AXS derailleur really brings to attention how terrible the current design is. It's not a gearbox, but this definitely looks like a step forward!
  • 1 0
 Lucky for me I ride Right foot forward, other wise I'd probably be accidentally kicking that off panicking searching and missing pedals on no foot tricks when I run out of talent.
  • 1 0
 I've broken 5 GX derailleurs and 4 X2 hangers in 3 years! The 12s are very useful, but the running costs are ridiculous. I'm glad it's less likely to break, but I'm more concerned about the gearbox.
  • 1 0
 Does anyone else remember the suntour derailleur that mounted to two nuts in the chainstay about 3inches in front of the dropout? I think it was on a steel Gary fisher bike in about 1992
  • 1 0
 This will make no difference in the required length of the derailleur cage. That is dictated by required total tooth capacity. In increase is clearance is lateral, simply because the derailleur is moved inboard.
  • 3 0
 Dammit. I just bought a derailleur hanger alignment tool
  • 2 0
 stuff sucks to work on. i get depressed thinking about it actually. so glad shimano exists.
  • 3 0
 Excited for my stock of frame building parts to become obsolete once more
  • 3 3
 Sram trying there hearts out, to find a new clutch solution. After Shimano closed that patent down years ago. There current “rollerbearing” clutch is only good for 1 ride.
  • 1 0
 Haven't shimano already done this with the Saint rear derailleur a few years back with the M800, it used to bolt on to the end of the through axle
  • 1 0
 "which seems like a smart way to introduce a new standard"

right, name a few?
  • 3 1
 Why do we even need this? Just make gearboxes already..
  • 3 1
 SOMETHING NEGATIVE ABOUT SRAM
  • 1 0
 This seems like a solid idea. I’m willing to hang around to see if derails.
  • 3 0
 First generation Saint?
  • 2 0
 You mean I shouldn't have thrown out that Hone derailleur?
  • 1 0
 Shops are jumping of joy to possibly stocking this UHD only derailleurs and version for other bikes without it.
  • 1 1
 Would give a lot just to be able to get rid of the crappy sandwich-o-break-matic crap that untightens itself, Specialized serves .
  • 1 0
 Does this mean the mech would be more vulnerable with no fail safe (hanger)?
  • 1 0
 In before the new 20.99x184.99 axle/spacing standard they push through with this.
  • 1 0
 i came straight to the bottom of the comments section to find out what needs replacing now when you smash it one?
  • 1 0
 Hi I just wanted to point out the main function of a replacable dropout is to help save the frame not the derailleur.
  • 1 0
 What is the advantage with this? If I smash the derailleur the entire thing is destroyed compared to just the hanger?
  • 3 0
 Uselsss
  • 1 0
 Next year the new and improved boost plus hanger will be available. Unfortunately it's not compatible with the old standard.
  • 1 0
 Tucked more inboard? So the derailleur can get sucked into the wheel more easily? That's the bomb, baby!
  • 1 0
 Could we just please kill the derailleur once and for all and instead focus developing the internal gearing...
  • 1 1
 Finally, what we have all been waiting for. An electric drivetrain from Shimano...
  • 2 0
 LOL
  • 6 4
 [Yawns in gearbox]
  • 1 0
 My kids, kids will probably be dead before gearboxes happen on bikes and I don't have kids...
  • 1 1
 Quite interesting, but seems like frame manufacturers have to be on board to redesign their frames.
  • 1 0
 you'd be surprised how many new bikes are designed with the Sram UDH already
  • 1 0
 “The rear gear changer”?
  • 2 3
 Dont care , stop wasting your energy on more new ways to make us waste money and start developing a freaking gearbox... Its 2021 !!
  • 1 1
 Anything to take attention away from Capra getting a god damn bottle cage. SMH
  • 1 0
 It seems to improve chain wrap.
  • 1 0
 makes sense, current hanger single bold design has soooo much flex.
  • 1 0
 I'd be happy if they sold outer replacement cages along with the inner.
  • 1 0
 ........how do you take the wheel off.....
  • 1 0
 Put those patent drawings on a tshirt. Bike nerds unite..
  • 2 0
 No, the patent drawings for the original Suntour "integrated" design. "Innovation ain't new."
  • 1 0
 hmmmmmm
  • 1 1
 It's about time!
  • 1 2
 13 speed with 10-54 :-P
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