If you're riding a full-suspension bike, odds are good that it was born somewhere in Asia. Taiwan, China, Vietnam, Indonesia...these are the places the bike industry heads to when it comes time to actually build bikes. Is that a good thing? A bad thing? An entirely neutral thing? What's your take on it?
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Was discussing this the other day, with all the pro American built hype and recent threats of restrictions on imports I'm seeing a huge surge in eastern sellers refusing to ship to America. Likewise American sellers often have a 48states only policy. In Europe there has always been a ton of banter and co-production. No one country gets it done perfectly, but taking the strengths of each we create some amazing things.
UK overbuilds but isn't so accurate, German stuff is accurate as hell but not always pretty, Italian stuff isn't built wonderfully but they have the styles.it goes on.
Anyways, point being we need to keep working with each others strengths and weaknesses as the end product can then become an amazing product. Restrictions are gonna hurt us. Simple example is a pack of led's on eBay. You get like 200 for a few dollars from china, you get about 10 for double the price from the USA.
Working together without forcing restrictions shouldn't be seen as a threat to economies but as an advantage we can work with.
I liked what Intense did before they became just another brand. I love what Foes does. I respect Guerilla Gravity.
I dont like Sweatshop catalog bikes passed off by brands as their own development. Its not just how its made but usually the concept is wrong.
I think there is room for a builder to bring that higher level of quality to the market, and with direct sales now a reality, it can be price competitive too.
Its 2017...hello
Plenty of North American bike companies have put out crap because they didn't pay enough to get the best engineers, designers and trades people working for them. Too often they think people should work for less to work in the bike industry because its cool or they just can't compete with bigger industries.
Young inexperienced trades people especially are willing to work for less for the discounts and access to factory seconds, prototypes and usable warranty returns.
Its a myth to think you want hardcore riders designing and building your bikes and parts. You want them to have input from outside the factory floor and excellent welders and machinists making the stuff.
they wanted us to assess those cheaper vendors for the high end line. We were able to disqualify them for lack of quality and process control only after one of them caused the full mid season runs of several key frame models to be destroyed due to contamination of the alloy tube sets.
Really? Why does the Honda Accord always score high on reliability?
Engineered lifespan.
Domestic car manufacturers seem to have it down to a science where soon after your warranty expires, your car you once paid 15-40K for, turns into a cardboard box on plastic wheels and you're back in the market looking for something else.
Then they cry about why consumers don't buy domestic...
Here's an idea, stop engineering cars you can barely get 70K miles out of before breaking down and maybe you'll win the market back.
Rant off.
They also have ave public shaming of offenses. You better not screw up.
When you spend $5000 for a bike that's 100% US made, the money will stay in your country.
When you spend $5000 for a bike that's made in China, most of the money will be sent abroad.
When I'm choosing a bicycle (or anything), it must meet certain quality standards. If more products meet this standard, then:
1. I'll try to buy one from my own country.
2. If not possible, I'll try to buy one from Europe.
3. If not possible, I'll try to buy one from a "white" country (USA, Canada)
4. If not possible, then I'll buy whatever is available.
And the materials are rarely 100% sourced locally.
It does not matter where the frame is made.
If you have a bunch of under paid people that do not have passion for what their making, the quality will suffer.
In my case, we had several of us that were bike geeks that cared a lot about what we were putting out, the rest of the staff ( the other 90% ) could give two shits, it was a paycheck. And if you are a ( I only buy made in USA ) guess what, 90% of the guys making your stuff don't / can't speak English and do not ride bikes. That's corporate manufacturing for ya. But there are the hand full of small manufacturers out there that are making and putting in the attention to detail. Just do your research and buy from a company with passion and good customer service Big or small.
But I digress; I'm awaiting a German built FS frame, and once I tire of my road bike I'll be looking at a Naked or another Dekerf.
I'd say 27.5 is a great example. Following the forums etc you'd see people didnt really feel the need, results were always that 26 was more nimble, not really any issues with rolling, didnt need that extra 14% power input for acceleration, but many were curious to try it. That got pounced on by the brands and became mainstream for ..well, not many good reasons other than making more sales more quickly. Its like the 10year light bulb getting phased out all those years ago. More turnover is good for making loads of money, not the user.
I realize this is only a poll but I personally try and remain cognizant of things like this.
Agreed. If you tell someone an M6 bolt needs 20nm of torque, they can do that anywhere on the planet. But if someone on a beach in Florida is designing your Squamish "quiver-killer" you may have a problem.
All in all it is a mix of components from all over the place. Suspension and brakes from Germany, drivetrain definitely from Asia except for the (KMC) chain. Spokes from Switzerland. What is important however is that it is done according worker and environmental conditions I consider acceptable. That's the main thing really. So that goes beyond what the factory looks like, but also working hours, the way waste water from anodizing is handled. Obviously this kind of stuff is hard to track but it should be done properly when done in a "western" country. So if the option is there and it is feasible, it is my prefered option. But not for love for the motherland or anything.
My primary concern with off-shoring is instead about the working and wage conditions of people making these bikes. Are they paid appropriately and provided with safe working conditions? In most instances this is a complete unknown when they are off-shored to nations with lax workers' protections... Very few companies seem to be concerned with being accountable in this regard; and unfortunately this is probably due to us consumers not demanding it.
Me, I don't really care where it's made as long as it's good..
what bug me is companies like Santa Cruz who used to be made in USA still charging that MADE IN USA price even though they're outsourced from the ROC which is well known for being cheaper.
Transition was always made in ROC but, at least with them, the prices reflect that. Tranny had a few years where the paint was shit-poor horrible but, they found a new company and they're rock solid now.
I have been selling Tranny's since around 2002ish (about a year after they started up). I didn't sell a boat load of them but, I think through the years, I have had at most 3 warranty issues. all were taken care of. sure sure, they're little kooky but, they make good stuff.
Totally agree.
I used to have three go-to brands for MADE IN USA --- Ellsworth, Titus and Santa Cruz...
there was THE day when I was like----- whoa whoa whoa, what the hell?!?! I had three guys buy three of the same bikes for some sorta Eco Challenge type race they were doing. they all ordered the Santa Cruz SuperLite.. I remember it, it was 2 large, 1 medium in the sand color (tan). I get them in, start opening the boxes. I flip one bike upsidedown and wwwwaaaBAMM!!! --- big silver black sticker on the bottom bracket that reads MADE IN TAIWAN ....... I'm not sure what year it was but, I recall the sinking feeling I got not because I didn't get the memo from SC that they moved production to ROC but, because I was still paying that MADE IN USA price. it's pretty clear why companies move production to ROC.. labor's cheap SC still puts out a pretty darn nice product............. I don't know what became of Titus, they just sorta fell off radar
1- Labour laws - Are the companies using foreign cheap labour so they pump up their profits? (That shows little respect for everyone involved, employees and customers) - Local wins
2- Environmental cost - how much pollution does it make to build parts all over the world and ship them out elsewhere so we can enjoy the outdoors 'clean' lifestyle? - Local wins
3- Quality. No one wants shit built bikes. - Foreign possibly wins
4- Cost of bike - foreign wins
5 - Local employment. - local wins
What is really important for you?
Considering above, if I go on moral/ethical standards I would always go local. But when we live in a culture of throw away and cheap & profit.. as we know all that goes down the toilet in a blink of an eye (hence the state of the world).
Quality produce, fair treatment of employees and smaller environmental footprint are expensive and reduce the profit bike companies.
In my past 20 years of riding, I owned a Devinci and a Balfa DH bikes, both made in Québec, and I currently own a Standard 125R BMX bike made in Iowa. All the others were made in Asia: Specialized (4), Giant (1), Pivot (1), Voodoo (1), Devinci carbon (1), Intense BMX (1), Redline BMX (1).
I am thinking (every single day) about pulling the trigger on a Chromag Surface as my next bike purchase.
But nevermind where the bike's been made; what I love to know is that my bike has been manufactured for someone whit rights, health protection and good working conditions, earning a fair wage.
None of the above comes to my mind when I think about chinesse factories working whit very toxic shit.
And all this carbon fiber new age, that's been introduced mainly to cut production costs and introduce new desing posibilities like aluminum was back in the day, makes me sick, because now companies sell you stuff even cheaper to produce by a people earning wages lower than ever (anyone can fill carbon molds once trained, it's like making lemonade compared to quality consistent welding), at a price higher than ever.
If I ever get the cash to replace my 05 Prophet then I'll likely get a GG Megatrail. Not because it's US made, ('Merica! f*ck Yeah!) but because the bike ticks all the boxes for me. The rest is a bonus.
When I asked aboot it, I was told the frame is hand made in the US, then shipped to the East to be built into a bike an distributed around the world.
An quite possibly.. Shipped back to the US, cos that's cheaper than building an distributing bikes from the US
I personally have never had an issue with any foreign made frames.
Take vehicles for example, I always buy Honda or Toyota. when I am asked why I wont buy American, I simply reply that I value a well made product. My brother on the other hand, swears by "American Made" yet he is always at his local auto parts store. Whenever he walks in he's greeted like Norn from "Cheers"!
as if you're to charge more because of your brand you could at least make it in the country your brand is from, seeing as being manufactured in taiwan/china is the norm, you could at least differentiate from the norm, then it'd be more appealing and worth that premium.
As it's a bit of a kick in the nads, when you pay 10-20% more for a boutique bike expecting it to be made by the brand you buy it from, not outsourced to a company in east asia, when you could have gotten something made in the same factory with slight better spec, for less.
granted that taiwanese made bikes are bloody fantastic, it doesn't hurt to keep local frame builders going.
The bmx is American made (2004 standard sta500), the trials bike Russian made (2006 triton deema) and the trail bike is American made (2008 intense 5.5). The commuter slag (2004 santacruz chameleon) is made in tawain and is no worse than any of the others.
In fact, the intense is the worst of the lot due to slight misalignment of the upper pivot mount. The rest are all pretty much perfect boutique frames.
To me it doesn't matter where the frame is made, however I do like to support small industry and stuff made by hand, by craftsmen
If you outsource production jobs but then sell the product in the home country, who's left to consume it?
I guess the reality is it is more about the product you design and the specifications. You can make stuff of good or poor quality anywhere in the world. It just so happens that a lot of companies looking to outsource manufacturing often look to cut other costs that could affect the quality of the end product. Though there is some value to having your engineering department within a stones throw of the manufacturing facility, that and when you outsource it is more likely your intellectual property gets stolen.
All those savings made on one side are investments elsewhere. Marketing and branding costs are the largest slice of retail prices for one good reason: people buy brands.
If production were not outsourced the price would be the same, even lower.
Sure, it might impress some people to say some bloke designed it in his shed and they had to wait 9 months for it to be built, but frankly I wouldn't want to impress that type of person.
It might matter to racist morons as well who think everything made in china/taiwan etc is junk because it wasn't made by a burly bearded american man or tea drinking brit.
But we Americans are addicted to having "stuff". Stereos, iPhones, trendy clothes, tools we don't need or use. And we want NEW stuff even when we have all these things already.
The truth is, our appetite for affordable, high quality goods, coupled with corporation's tendencies towards constant growth, and environmental restrictions on manufacturing have all created an unsustainable situation.
Asian countries DO make high quality stuff, but they also make a ton of trash.
The age of this kind of manufacturing is gone and will never come back.
All else being equal, would you buy an Amercan bike or the (otherwise identical) Taiwanese bike? See..
As to all things being equal question:..hmmmm.......if even shipping and swiftness of customer service were exactly equal, then American. If customer service was swifter and better warranty etc on Taiw frame, then Taiwan.
For all appliances where it makes sense (where German products are good and not completely overpriced) I have decided to buy local whenever possible. I'm not rich but I also can't complain. I know it's not the way of the homo economicus, if it saves some lower middle class jobs and keeps some factories here for at least a little longer... but the whole country is turning to shit anyways.
sorry, late going back to this, but basically feel same exact way about our situation here.......I am torn on the saving mid level job thing , certainly I want all folks to have access to decent job....but not sure how much we should manipulate to forcefully keep them here......the stigma of made "outside" of US = inferior is long gone especially with corporate standards and quality check ups from home. All my rides are Taw or Chi and all are fantastically welded it seems. The companies are canada, UK, and US but all made in Asia.
It is such a war over here over domestic vs. global......reality is it just is not our fathers world anymore, my pedals were 20 $ and sipped directly from China via Amazon and my frame was bought on my cell phone from Planet X and shipped from Eng. to LA to PHX to Northern AZ in less than 48 hours....DHL....great price.
But hey, it's up to us. Personally, I think it's okay to have framework outsourced to Asia, but I draw the line at assembly. Your numbers are good, revenue stable? You can provide employment for a few hundred people.
And yes I am aware they are already killing the local bike shops. But that is no longer a sustainable business model in it's current form.
Love repping my local raceface gear though! #loamranger
It's about quality control not place of production
I think Lapierre used to do so in France, but I'm not sure they still do...
What about Canada? Devinci does, RM? Norco?
I like to purchase domestically built bikes and am willing to pay a premium for them to feel warm and fuzzy. (In my case all my frames are US built, but my next full suspension undoubtably won't be).
There is nothing wrong with overseas built frames, as with any product they can had from department store garbage to top quality. As Walt of Waltworks, a great custom frame builder puts it really well and in an unvarnished truth:
"99% of the bikes made overseas are made by human welders. Specialized was doing some of their 2-piece molded alloy frames with a robot, I think, but generally, it's a human. Labor is *cheap* in some parts of the world - robots only make sense if they're even cheaper. And right now, for most things, including welding bikes, they're not.
And I'm guessing that most of the bike welders in Taiwan are WAY better than the folks here. I weld 1 or 2 frames a week, and each one takes me quite a while. I bet some of the guys in Taiwan or China (or India, though you don't see those bikes in the States) do 50+ in a day. Who's going to have more practice/experience under their belt? That's not to say they necessarily care much about their work or that the person who designed the bike knows anything about how it will ride or fit, but the welders themselves are definitely highly skilled.
So to answer the question, there is nothing wrong with the welding, generally. You can find examples of every kind of frame breaking in just about every possible way, regardless of where it was built, but the vast majority hold up well. Just about any high end (meaning >$500) bike you can buy is well made and safe, honestly.
There is a whole economic/political buying local or USA products shouting match we could have about this too, but it's been done before. A handbuilt frame generally comes with more personal attention, better fit and design, and can be tweaked to suit your riding needs. For some people, that's worth the money, for some it's not.
-Walt"
High volume is not a good indication for good, quality work though, especially something like welding.
If the comment was directed towards the big 3 American brands then its totally justified. While they have all made huge strides in improving overall quality of their products they still fall short. On top of that they continue to struggle with the "perceived quality" shortfall being that cars from Ford, GM & Chrysler just aren't as good. They deserve that rep after the 30 years of crap they plowed into the market! If it wasn't for union lobbyists at least one of them would be out of business.
Things are funny these days.
China = affordable
bros = socially awkward
This question is a can of worms.
I almost choked laughing.
Chromag: Made by DeKerf.
Just look up bike companies based in Vancouver... I love my Brodie! Canada is home to more brands than you think.
Zziplex RichardCunningham's article
Mar 17, 2017
Opinion: The Table
Sooner have a bike made by a conscientious nimble asain than a ketchup covered piss stained *ag smoking fat as fu£k ameritard called Brandon.
You probably listened to too much Cr@ss, but I like your second lil rant!
Conclusion : a well built bike is a bike I don't have to worry about when I'm riding. If I have to, well, to me it's a piece of sh**, regardless of where it was built.
:S