Cane Creek Announces Progressive Springs for Coil Shocks
Press Release: Cane Creek
There is No Excuse Now - Coil Performance for the Masses
Progressive-Rate VALT lightweight coil springs are now available from Cane Creek Cycling Components. Designed and tuned by our engineering team to provide riders with a true rise-in-rate spring curve. The Progressive-Rate VALT springs maintain the sensitivity and “set it and forget it” mentality of a traditional coil set up, but with the progressivity and ramp up that hard-charging riders and many frame designs demand.
 | Our Progressive-Rate VALT springs are all about giving riders more options. These springs allow riders to use a coil shock on a bike that may not have been ideal for the linear nature of a coil shock in the past. |
Available in the following sizes:
• 55MM X 400-488LB
• 55MM X 450-550LB
• 55MM X 500-610LB
• 65MM X 400-488LB
• 65MM X 450-550LB
• 65MM X 500-610LB
• 55MM X 400-488LB
• 55MM X 450-550LB
• 55MM X 500-610LB
• 65MM X 400-488LB
• 65MM X 450-550LB
• 65MM X 500-610LB
The progression begins to ramp up halfway through the stroke of the spring; as the coil interval spacing begins to decrease. Our Cane Creek engineering team used a DB AIR CS with (1x) volume spacer as the benchmark for the ideal rate of progression (400-488lb, 450-550lb, 500-610lb).
PRODUCT TECH:
• 125mm Free length (55mm stroke)
• 141mm Free length (65mm stroke)
• 36.5mm Inner diameter
• 52.5-54mm Outer diameter
• 380g - 465g ~Weight range
• MSRP: $100 USD
• 125mm Free length (55mm stroke)
• 141mm Free length (65mm stroke)
• 36.5mm Inner diameter
• 52.5-54mm Outer diameter
• 380g - 465g ~Weight range
• MSRP: $100 USD
We’ve compiled a list of some modern trail bikes ready to #UPGRADETOCOIL! Head over to Cane Creek Cycling Components to nerd out even further on leverage ratio curves and how to decide whether a coil or an air shock is right for you.
To celebrate this liberation from the status quo, Cane Creek is now manufacturing the DB Coil IL
(the world's only twin-tube 4-way adjustable, inline-style coil shock) in black for a limited time.
(the world's only twin-tube 4-way adjustable, inline-style coil shock) in black for a limited time.
Available in the following sizes:
• 200x50mm
• 200x57mm
• 210x50mm
• 210x55mm
• 216x63mm
• MSRP: $460
• 200x50mm
• 200x57mm
• 210x50mm
• 210x55mm
• 216x63mm
• MSRP: $460
MENTIONS: @CaneCreekCyclingComponents
Cane Creek Cycling Components - Shocks
Author Info:
Member since Sep 14, 2012
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Looks like you flipped the climb lever on your comment.....it's moving up well.
That's what you get for being so wound up.
Today - Progressive Coil Springs
What year is it again?
Why sell one tandem when you can sell TWO solitaire bikes?
It is an ultra ultra niche market in the grand scheme of things. You can count the number of DH tandems on Fromme on one hand and still have 5 fingers(ok 4 fingers and a thumb) left over.
Once I get my Ventana there will be one tandem on the Shore.
While I would enjoy tandem DH racing on Red Bull TV, no where near enough viewers.
There is no conspiracy.
... c'mon, kind cool in a weird niche cool way, but no way is it a huge deal.
Anyways, Downieville said they'd give us a category for 25th annual all-mtn world championships this year if I could get more than 3 teams to come. Join us and you might be a world champion.
Which honestly would be super helpful for getting a triplets bike into downhill racing.
We're super curious about both MRP and Cane Creek's new products, and are looking forward to doing a LOT of suspension testing in the next year.
If I come in, all I can do is ridicule Fennell.
Instead of huge elastomer bumpers or progressive springs why not pay for a coil shock that actually dampers instead of a expensive spring holder
Both issues are addressed in different ways.. but if you pop this on a bike with a single rebound circuit, it might not be as ideal. The deep hits will rebound fast, so you may want to slow it down, which wouldn't be as sensitive for low speed sensitivity.
I like this idea, for low friction sensitivity, with some support at the end, so it is better suited for leverage curves that are designed around a lighter weight air spring. Makes sense. Good to have options!
Dampers damp, springs hold you up. The damper is not a spring.
There is a saying that dampers are a replacement for good suspension design. I think that may be taking it a bit far, but just relying on the damper to do everything is not a good policy at all.
When I was fiddling with racing car suspension design I got totally sucked into the interconnected suspension designs, where theoretically you could get rid of dampers. This type of suspension is illegal in almost all forms of auto racing and is really hard to adapt to bike design however.
Basic engineering, make it too complicated and you have a higher probability of failure. Make it something that involves moving oil quickly, it heats up and we all know oil contains air and changes viscosity over time and temperature.
The spring and elastomer remain pretty consistent as many good springs pre-aged past their wear in point.
So does that mean that the current solution is more reliable, less prone to variation/more consistent and has a longer service interval. Yes it is less tunable, but this tune tends to be a set once and forget, that is unless of course you have oil which is changing, then you have to keep an eye on the settings as they will need to be adjusted to compensate for temperature and ageing effects.
Just a guess though
In comparison to desert racing, I don't remember the last time someone on a mountain bike hit a two foot rock face at 100mph and needed a separate bump stop... the point remains though, in the "highest form of motorsport", they aren't cramming hydraulic bottom outs into shocks.
@badbadleroybrown - indeed dampers are for controlling velocity this is why it says high and low speed compression/rebound on them. But in doing so, they also inevitably dissapate energy. How much though? Depends how much you spent on EXT to believe it.
Also, BBLB and me... we go way back with hate trolling each other, so please don’t think we support each other. He is just squeezing juices out of you and he has good points just like you do. Compromises.. I personally always try to find balance between preload and compression for my preferred mixture of grip, stability, handling and g-out “management”. I rely on SAG numbers loosely since they always dictate damping.
@Mondbiker: No trolling, you're just stuck on fanboy status pal... you like your shock so you refuse to accept the reality of what it is, which is a gimmick that's a sub-optimal approach to suspension. The damper's sole job is to control the velocity of oscillation through the transfer of kinetic energy into heat via viscous damping... not to support the weight of the vehicle or rider to avoid bottoming when suspension is undersprung. Every top company uses progressive springs or spring stacks to support weight and uses separate bump stops because that's the best way to do it. King, Fox, etc... they all use discrete bump stops because doing otherwise compromises the damper's ability to do it's job in damping suspension oscillation and compromises the bump stops ability to control harsh bottoming when it is needed. Just like using a discrete video card in a computer allows both the processor and video card to each perform better, the same holds true with suspension. Each component has different jobs to do and trying to combine them into one just compromises the devices ability to do any of them optimally.
My Antidote CJ bottoms out too often at 33% SAG, at 30% rarely, but that is not the whole story. I like it with my current 26-28% because of handling oversteer/understeer balance when pushing through corners. all that having fork setup in the mix.
If you knew anything about suspension, you would be laughing at yourself for saying shit as stupid as "Instead of huge elastomer bumpers or progressive springs why not pay for a coil shock that actually dampers instead of a expensive spring holder".
www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/citroen-c4-wrc-2
www.zf.com/products/en/motorsport/products_49931.html
www.exe-tc.co.uk/rally-systems
www.kingshocks.com/products/options/ibp-internal-bypass
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TXtKJrmQcE
and now my favourite one www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSHNGoJvjFI
f*ck man, the more you talk the more you show how little you know.
1. WRC rules state "Only one shock absorber per wheel is authorised." and "With regard to their principle of operation, gas-filled shock absorbers are considered as hydraulic shock absorbers."... discrete gas charged hydraulic bump stops would therefore count as a shock absorber. Ipso facto, the rules dictate that you must compensate with an integrated design, not by choice but by regulation.
2. Unless you've put in so much preload and your bike is so oversprung that sitting on it doesn't compress the suspension, you've already overcome whatever resistance exists in the spring the moment you sit on the bike... your presence on the bike has already eliminated any breakaway resistance from the spring therefore preload is irrelevant in determining breakaway force and the only thing creating breakaway resistance at that point becomes friction from things like seals.
2a. Beyond the reality of the above, preload is a very minor adjustment that doesn't significant impact the overall force of suspension, this is something you lot were consistently missing in that other thread. Take a shock with 2.25" stroke on it, Fox specs a 2.35" free travel spring on that shock meaning that the maximum you could potentially preload it is 0.1", or 2.54mm out of a total of 59.7mm. That's a maximum potential preload of 4.25% above unloaded. So, even if you look at it from a static perspective without considering the rider you're still talking about a negligible change affected to the overall force required to initiate suspension motion. And that's at the absolute maximum when, in reality, you should never be preloading your spring near that level. In practice we're talking about 1-2%.
Like I said, the more you talk the more you show how little you actually understand what you're talking about... just stop while you're behind.
3: there are other companies than fox if you haven´t noticed, like this article for example talks about, cane creek recommends max 6 turns of preload =6mm. Not that hard to calculate how much force that equals to with 500lb spring for example is it. And hell, even 2 turns fox recommend are too much, might as well ride air shock with all stiction at that point. Peace.
Even aside from the negligible percentage of spring rate that preload accounts for, it doesn't matter how many times your wheel comes off the ground because your weight is a constant that's driving back through that preload every f*cking time you goddamn autist. So every single time you land, you're necessarily exerting sufficient force to negate spring resistance.
Fox was one example... cane creek doesn't recommend 6 turns of preload, jackass, they recommend that if you need 6 you should go to a heavier spring which only underscores my f*cking point in an absolute worst case scenario of f*cked up, bad suspension setup you're at 10%. In reality, nobody who knows anything about suspension is suggesting you use more than a couple turns.
Did you suffer a head injury that you're recovering from or have you just always been this slow?
Nowhere have I suggested that bump stops didn't incorporate dampers, in fact I pretty clearly said at some point that they're more like an air shock. They're essentially just air shocks with high speed compression damping circuits to control high velocity bottom out.
And the whole f*cking point is that preload isn't a substitute for proper spring rate and neither is a hydraulic bottom out.
Good luck recovering from that head injury.
But the rider inputs the significant part of the error. I would guess this could potentially add a 1ppm advantage for a large spend. Setup wrong (as it's more to get wrong) cause a 1000ppm disadvantage.
Therefore its engineering for engineering sake.
xxx
You even heard of an internal/external bypass damper bro?
You're a month late and still full of shit...
wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.com/2012/02/springs-co.html?m=1
I’ll caveat the above Article by mentioning that instead of using progressive springs - a lot of wrc dampers now use HBO similar in design to EXTs rally dampers.
Now, go ahead and get back under your bridge.
Please link me to where the WRC regulations state that you have to use a hydraulic bump stop as opposed to an elastomer.
You stated that "In comparison to desert racing, I don't remember the last time someone on a mountain bike hit a two foot rock face at 100mph and needed a separate bump stop... the point remains though, in the "highest form of motorsport", they aren't cramming hydraulic bottom outs into shocks."
No - but they are cramming in external bypass dampers which control the end stroke progression.
books.google.co.uk/books?id=YVB80K3KnLIC&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=hydraulic+bottom+out+vs+elastomer&source=bl&ots=b0HWzV9PAB&sig=ACfU3U33x6Xs0WaFmyX8upg2CGGYOyirrA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjO0PHHm_HmAhWimFwKHUgCBhUQ6AEwBnoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=hydraulic%20bottom%20out%20vs%20elastomer&f=false
"During the rebound motion out of the end stop, the elastomer extends back to it's original shape and reintroduces most of the absorbed energy back in to the suspension system".
That is why they don't use mechanical bump stops in rally. Your mechanical damper isn't speed sensitive either, the HBO systems found in WRC cars are both position and speed sensitive - the EXT dampers can produce up to 30KN/m force towards the latter part of the stroke at shaft speeds of 3m/s - that is a considerable amount of force and much firmer than any bump stop could be ran at without causing the ride to be overly harsh or limiting travel at lower shaft velocities. Remember the springs being used are only around 40-50n/mm.
So I'm afraid to say, that it is you sir that is full of crap - I was compelled to reply despite how old this article is because of the way you were replying to others whilst being outright wrong.
butthurt because Americans aren't producing the best tech in the world?
Like I said, if you're gonna be a grave digging troll at least be an entertaining one. You're just a sad lil bucket of bitter ignorance.
All the best motorsports teams are European or Japanese
Fastest track cars in the world - Formula One, majority of the tech is European with most of the teams being based in or around Didcot in the UK. This craps all over indy.
All the best Rally teams - European.
The most technically advanced trucks in the world - Dakar teams - mostly European.
Fastest motorbikes in the world - European or Japanese
Oh and guess what, non of the Moto GP teams are sponsored by Ohlins - they pay to use them - good products don't need sponsorship to back them.
Oh and reading back, the comments you made about hydraulic bottom outs leading to heat issues (they don't in a well designed damper that is fit for intended purpose) were only one side of the story as well. If you use a progressive spring you also force the damper to work harder on the rebound stage - heating the damper up further.
Have a lovely day!
@canecreek - ditch the gold. Your shocks are best performikg out the box Ive ridden, but I dont want to commit to the bling look. Maybe Im off on this- but Ill bet you guys sell 2x as many DB coils if they came w/ stealth or black bodies.
My buddy put a 454 in a Chevelle that came with a small block, and to stiffen up the front to deal with the weight he cut some coils out of his front springs. Lowered and stiffened it all at the same time, all for no money.
Is that a mislabeling due to marketing or is it due to that section of the spring becoming coil bound?
I was forced to review my understanding of non linear springs. This appears to be a true progressively wound spring, which isn't going to gain spring rate solely due to coil bind. What it sounds like you are describing is a type of progressive spring often refered to as a dual rate spring.
Going by the spring rate graph, this spring appears to be a triple rate spring.
It would be interesting to see a video of this spring moving through its travel. All dual rate springs would actually have a transition phase(so a third rate)as they move from one rate to another and perhaps the spring rate graph is showing that happen.
progression add more support&bottom out resistance from hydraulic than from spring rate. So whatever the spring it's better when a bike has enough progression.
It's because frame progression does effect both spring rate and damping force. Both having opposite effects on damping coefficient.
@Huntro
You're only looking at spring forces, so you lose half of the story.
frame progression affect more the hydraulic forces than the spring forces, because not only the leverage's change are increasing forces at the wheel, it also increase shaft speed. (It's not whats really happens but its a good way of understanding it). If you look at it from the spring side, damping force and spring rate are constant (if average rate is the same around sag point) , but a progressive frame will reduce the virtual mass they are seeing at the end of the stroke, thus increasing the damping coefficient.
A progressive spring will decrease the damping coefficient, so you actually have two opposite effects.
The ideal suspension have enough progression in the frame and a slight progression in the spring rate (due to damping coefficient being quite low in off road applications)
If My sentences doesn't makes sense please tell me I'm over my limits when translating technical things.
Take a shock and put it on a bike. Let’s say that at 80% of the shock travel, the damping forces are X and spring forces are Y. When you put that shock on a different bike, at 80% of the shock travel, the damping forces will still be X and the spring force will still be Y. If you adjust the spring to make the system more progressive, then Y will go up, but X will remain the same, meaning that the rebound circuit will now be underdamped (assuming that previously it was correctly damped) because the spring force >Y will overwhelm the damping circuit.
If all of a bikes progression comes from the shock, then (without a position sensitive damper) you tend to get an underdamped end stroke or overdamped early stroke
I love the feeling, but it’s definitely not ideal for speed or control.
At the end of the day the progressive springs are for folks who want to ride coil, but want more progression than their frame offers. It's not about weight at all.
It would be nice to have color match springs!
(NOT!!!!)
Won't the springs just compress together and work as the sum of the spring rates?
Love the idea, still hate the colour
Cane creek, I must say however, being a chris king fan for years due to the longevity of the product, I always hated the king headset compression assembly it always made popping sounds. I bought a 110, and i'm never looking back... ever....