Patent Round-up: Shimano's Crazy Derailleur, Electronic Shifter & SRAM's Floating Brakes

Dec 9, 2022 at 9:23
by Seb Stott  
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Digging through patent documents can sometimes offer hints at what we might be riding in a few years' time. Often the wacky designs don't see the light of day, but even then, it's interesting to see what ideas the bike industry's brains are working on. Here are a few that we've spotted lately.



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The proposed derailleur on the right remains higher above the ground than a conventional derailleur.

Shimano's three jockey wheel derailleur

We first spotted this one on Cycling News. It's a patent from Shimano for a derailleur with three jockey wheels, apparently designed to offer more ground clearance with a wide-range cassette. There is an upper jockey wheel in about the normal place that guides the chain onto the cassette, but instead of one lower wheel to tension the chain, it has two. These wheels are positioned horizontally in front of the first one, keeping them higher off the ground. The chain wraps around the two tensioning wheels, which are mounted on opposite ends of a spring-loaded arm that pivots between the two. When the chain shifts into a larger sprocket, the arm rotates such that there's a shorter path for the chain to go from the chain ring to the upper jockey wheel.

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The front two jockey wheels are mounted on an arm that pivots to provide chain tension in all gears.

The key advantage is that it stays higher above the ground than a conventional derailleur cage. The patent also states that it can be used with a cassette with a wide gear range. Perhaps that means a wider range than Shimano's current 10-51 tooth cassettes is on the cards.



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SRAM's three-piston floating brake

A patent from SRAM shows a single-sided, three-piston disc brake. While most mountain bike brakes use an opposed-piston design, with either two or four positions arranged in pairs, sIngle-sided brake calipers are typically only seen on budget bikes. Usually, they have a single piston that pushes a moveable brake pad against the rotor, which bends it towards a fixed brake pad on the other side.

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In this patent, the rotor is separated into two parts - the carrier and the brake track. The carrier is thick and is fixed to the hub; the brake track (the part which the brake pads rub against) is connected to the track in such a way that it can slide, or float, axially (side-to-side) on the carrier. The patent depicts many ways in which this could be achieved.

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The drawings show a caliper with three pistons on the inboard side, pushing a moveable brake pad towards a fixed outboard brake pad. When the brake is applied, the brake track will slide toward the fixed pad.

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The caliper mounts to the bike in a different way from the post-mount standard we've been using for years. The caliper connects to the frame with a loop that's concentric to the axle, and there's a lateral stub on the frame with a bolt fixing the caliper body to the frame or fork. Although a drawing shows it being connected to a post-mount fork, it looks like this design would require a new frame mounting standard.

What's the advantage? The patent mentions that conventional brake calipers require careful alignment to avoid brake rub and poor braking performance. Plus, as the pads wear and the pistons advance to compensate, they rarely advance evenly, leading to uneven pad wear, brake rub and poor brake performance. The patent claims that the "self-centering or floating rotors address at least the drawbacks noted above."



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Shimano electronic shifter?

Finally, Shimano has a patent for an electronic controller that's shown connecting to a brake lever. The patent doesn't say what it's for (patents are always as open-ended as possible) but its position under the right-hand brake lever in the main image and the fact it has two buttons make it a pretty good guess that it could be used as a shifter. Having said that, one advantage of electronic components is that they can be configured to do multiple jobs, so perhaps the same device (or a left-hand version) could be used to control an e-bike motor, dropper post, suspension settings, or more.

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Shimano's Di2 shifter isn't wireless.

The patent says that it could include a "wireless communicator." This would be a new direction from Shimano as their Di2 electronic shifting has always communicated with wires. Will we see a wireless electronic derailleur from Shimano? I wouldn't hold my breath, but a wireless controller/shifter with a derailleur powered by a battery in the frame could be a good compromise, especially for e-bikes.




Author Info:
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Member since Dec 29, 2014
303 articles

222 Comments
  • 328 46
 Dear god, please let them stop faffing about with Rube Goldberg contraptions like this. FOCUS. ON. GEARBOXES!
  • 67 9
 Rube Goldberg reference. You get an upvote. Also, yes to gearboxes.
  • 71 1
 I agree. Many say gearboxes are terrible but if one of the powerhouse companies like SRAM or Shimano actually put in the effort to develop a frame mounted gearbox to be better than an exposed drivetrain we could actually get there at some point. No chain slap, very little maintenance, clean look and less unsprung weight etc. If every frame manufacturer can hop on the e-bike mount changes that quick, a proper gearbox system should also easily be adapted. Although I don't necessarily smash derailleurs often, I am often cleaning, tuning, adjusting clutches, hearing chain slap and am really just surprised at this point gearboxes aren't a thing.
  • 47 1
 B-b-b-but no $$$ for replacement cassettes, chains, jockey wheels, and chainrings with crank-proprietary mounts!

The big downsides to a gearbox bike is upfront cost and difficulty to shift under load, but the riders I’ve talked to that have gearbox bikes really like them. I’d be really keen to try / buy one
  • 15 0
 Plus one more for the gearboxes!! People would be amazed at how much more active a rear suspension can become when you get rid of all that unsprung weight. These modern dinner plate sized cassettes and huge derailleurs are heavy.
  • 7 0
 Unfortunstely they are focusing on wear/tear/consumables=profits. If I had money I would invest in Pinions more development for real
  • 43 2
 "Dear god, please let them stop faffing about with Rube Goldberg contraptions like this. FOCUS. ON. Rube Goldberg BOXES!"

Fixed it
  • 29 0
 I love PB. . . 1 article: Sram and Shimano can suck it, I hate non backward compatible components. 26/4/LIFE

2nd article. OMG, I want gear boxes (that will 100% not work on my current bike) in everything.
  • 12 1
 If you actually care, vote with your dollar. Zerodes are very, very good bikes (nearly bought a Katipo myself), and if they're not to your liking, you can get essentially whatever you want from Nicolai. Although the Pinion gear boxes aren't perfect, most of us could easily learn to live with the shortcomings (drag, twist shift, no shifting under full power) if we appreciate the benefits (reduced unsprung weight with the attendant suspension benefits, greatly improved tolerance of neglect, etc.).

That said, I'm still waiting to see if Shimano's chain-driven gear box patent ever surfaces as a viable product. Having a chain-driven enclosed drivetrain, rather than a planetary gearbox, would address every issue other than weight and cost. Not holding my breath, but still keeping fingers crossed.
  • 36 8
 @TurboDonuts: the three guys I help who used to have Zerode’s had higher operating costs than they ever did with derailleurs.

Broken belts, broken housings, broken tensioners, and shifter failures are pretty consistent. Pretty rare to tear a mech off. Pretty common to drag your chainring/BB over a rock/root. Double shift cables that still stretch and need pretty precise fine tuning. Less than when I setup a derailleur. Un breakable gates belts, break. First day into their Whistler riding trip.

They’ve all gone back to derailleur bikes with a mixture of Sram and Shimano and after 18 months have changed a chain, a chainring and some shift cable/housing because I’m picky. Haven’t seen a new Zerode in absolute ages, Taniwha nor Katipo.

The shift quality is an issue that maybe the big boys could crack. But just have yet to see a proper example of it being superior.
  • 3 1
 @bonfire: Interesting info, thanks for posting. I LOVED the Katipo demo I had for a few weeks, but if owners have having durability issues, that's good to know.
  • 48 8
 Wow... I know the comment section is generally a shit show. But I have never before seen such an insanely silly comment followed up by a complete black hole of logic in the responses.

Gearboxes have to have thousands of dollars worth of surface treatment to the interfacing gears to come even remotely close to the efficiency of a chain/cassette.

If you are able to use the internet and still find yourself annoyed by the fact that gearboxes aren't mainstream in the bicycle world today, then you honestly deserve all of the frustration life can throw at you.
  • 2 1
 @DirtCrab: If I had enough dollars I'd buy a gearbox. Someone really ought to make a somewhat affordable gearbox frame, at consumer direct kinda prices.
  • 3 1
 @DirtCrab: Yes! Essentially a derailleur in a box mounted in the front triangle would be amazing. None of the drag of a traditional gearbox, completely sealed away from the elements. What is taking so long to make this happen.
  • 4 0
 @islandtrader: To be fair, the derailleur in a box is well proven, if niche. Honda "allegedly" won on that platform at a factory level, and Alex Morgan of BCD raced multiple handmade prototypes based on the concept.

Considering that both examples ceased to be relevant during the Bush administration, one has to wonder if if the juice just isn't worth the squeeze.
  • 6 0
 @DirtCrab: Reviewers also have issues with Pinon gearboxes & durability.

I had high hopes for the Effigear- a single stage (as opposed to Pinon's triple stage) gearbox seems to be much simpler and easier to execute. But Paul Aston had so many problems with his that he couldn't ride the Starling his came on.
  • 11 20
flag CarbonShmarbon FL (Dec 12, 2022 at 12:58) (Below Threshold)
 @bonfire: sorry, dude. I'm gonna call bs on your entire comment.
  • 3 0
 @CarbonShmarbon: rofl, comment of the day. You tell 'em Steve Dave!
  • 9 11
 Eventually they wont be able to cram any more than 13 gears or 60 tooth granny in the back. Then they're gonna bring back the front derailleur like acid wash jeans and hail it as progress. Everyone is talking about green this and reduce carbon footprint that like our idiot prime minister and call it mysoginistic and prejudice when all they should be doing is nip it right at the source. Less consumables means less pollution.
  • 2 0
 @islandtrader: I don't want a 54 tooth cog in my front triangle
  • 11 2
 Yep, this is why I run a Hammerschmidt on a single speed. Gives me 2 gears - up and down. I was SO tired of getting my hex wrenches and DAG tool out on every single ride and making my friends wait in the landings of jumps while I dial in my drivetrain. If there was a company devoted to making bikes with ZERO DERAILLEURS, they could even call it "Zerode," I would be all over it like stink on chamois. Unfortunately, the corporate overlords who rule every aspect of our lives would never allow it. They are committed to the sham that is external derailleurs and too busy in cahoots with the big wigs over at SRAM swimming in pools of Universal Derailleur Hanger cash.
  • 6 0
 @hamncheez: but what about in your headset.
  • 4 3
 I like the idea of gearboxes, especially when you combine them with e-bike application.
  • 2 0
 are you suggesting a gear box bike - without integrated cable routing - would be amazing?
  • 3 0
 @sunringlerider: Theres an idea!

Imagine a bearing set with a circumference that can enclose an Eagle cassette
  • 3 0
 @Zozordan: I loved my Hammerschmidt!

Yes, a 4-5 speed Hammy would be amazing on a DH bike.
  • 1 0
 @TurboDonuts: My naivety gets ahead of me and I initially think this is wrong. But unfortunately they exist to extract [maximum] $$$ from our pockets - so it's going to be a consideration.
  • 2 0
 @someguy101: Like the Valeo-Effigear motor/box?
  • 2 0
 fwiw, a friend of mine has a commuter with Pinion 8 speed, I tried it, super reliable, low maintenance and easy to live with in that context.
Pretty sure some developing from Sram/Shimano would end up with a product that's also very good for mtb
  • 2 1
 @nskerb: Hahaha I thought sort of similarly going through these, hoping to see "shimano needs to contract with a nonprofit/govt/etc to make a gearbox" eventually.

Want a functioning gearbox? Speak to G Cross Honda, those quarter mil each prototype bikes supposedly had dream suspension and shifting... also a team of engineers that aren't funded by solely bicycles (or China, not getting political although the source/availability/expected costs all flow into tech and engineering). Usually the best tech is DHS/DOD or nonprofit funded, a quick online search of 2A parts from cheap vs DOD contracted companies shows similar differences in costs/reliability/tech.
  • 1 0
 @hamncheez: it had already been done with shimano fm5
  • 2 0
 Parasitic loss is a thing when you only put out 200 watts. Just get ride of the pedals put a gearbox in and call it a motorcycle ffs.
  • 7 0
 Williams Racing Products got you covered (soon I hope). Evolution of Honda concept if you didn't know...
  • 4 0
 @BigHerm: Yes!! I've been following their development closely on instagram. For being a first stage prototype, it looks amazing. They already said they will eventually make a trail bike with a much wider range of gears. Sign me up!!
  • 5 0
 @TurboDonuts: and frictional losses from the gears. It is quite noticeable, and I for one, being someone that rides in extremely rocky terrain and destroys 1 derailleur every other season or so, am really not keen on that amount of soul sucking drag(my friends Zerode literally feels like you have DH Assegai on front and back at 15psi on flat pavement. it's considerable). fix that, and allow some amount of shifting under load(at least to the extent lets say a NX cassette will accept shifts under load. that would be the bare min. which isn't asking too much if you have ever ridden NX lol), and I will pay the weight penalty.
  • 5 0
 @dh909: Legit 8 of the first 10 replies I couldn't believe what I was reading. It actually looks like some sense has jumped in but it was getting pretty depressing for a second.

If you have basically buckets of 100 dollar bills you can make a pretty friggin gangster gearbox bike. But there is simply no reason to.

It would be pretty cool to get a DoD contract to develop an efficient gearbox and then sell them in a QA process that requires to reject the majority of what you produce. As long as you could charge accordingly.
  • 3 0
 @mininhi: Pinion his now own by BRP, and BRP are recruiting (over 25 peoples) for a assembly plant in Bromont for their new Ebike with enclose shifting, so, show me the money! lol
  • 6 0
 @bonfire: I've been a nicolai GPI for several years and have only had to change the oil. I got it used, and it's the original drive train. Probably over 4,000 pretty hard miles in the PNW on it now. My son has a Zerode, and all I've had to do is change his shifter cables. Not saying it's not possible to break, but it's a lot less likely.
  • 4 0
 @islandtrader: This is so true, I just got my first full suspension with a gearbox and it rides surprisingly well.
  • 6 0
 @bonfire: I call bullshite!

I had a Nicolai Argon Pinion and had no issues, I'm now riding a Zerode Taniwha Trail and again no issues.

Pinion drives are such a good platform that I'm thinking about rebuilding the Taniwha into my enduro sled; it's currently set up in a 140 mm trail mode, then building a shorter travel 29er (maybe a Katipo or Saturn 14).

What gets me is how well the gearbox shifts once you learn how to use it, easily it shifts better than a derailleur, shifts are quicker and cleaner, not affected by conditions, and you can dump gears faster than anything else.
  • 4 2
 nothing beats the weight and efficiency of a chain
  • 2 2
 @nskerb: but when you have poor chain line,your efficiency is greatly reduced.

Current setups only work optimally in 1 or 2 gears.
  • 2 9
flag islandtrader (Dec 12, 2022 at 17:27) (Below Threshold)
 @hamncheez: Most fit riders don't need anywhere near the 50-52 tooth big cog they have now...
  • 3 0
 @Mikesee: check out williams racing products out of AU. They've got something brewing...
  • 2 0
 @hamncheez: think of the stiffnesszz of a internal headset routed gear box. It would need moar shim stacks. But the elimination of unsprung weight would eliminate all brake jack and have a truly flickable bike.
  • 2 1
 @bonfire @islandtrader I haven’t noticed any drag in the Pinion equipped bikes I’ve ridden. I also have a Gates drive commuter that’s lived outside for over five years with zero issues.
  • 4 2
 @mcrumble: Do you honestly believe that the big two haven’t spent money and resources on developing gearboxes?
They are inherently draggy, inefficient, heavy, and complex, and even with the advent of additive manufacturing], are a huge pain in the ass.
The chain, cassette, and derailleur are none of those things, and, incredibly reliable in recent years.
I ride more than ever before, on rocky, janky, tech terrain, and haven’t needed to replace a derailleur in years. I run GX stuff mostly, some XT, and it stays shifting great, and working near flawlessly. 20 years ago, sure, a gearbox would have been great, I think I was futzing with a Rohloff hub, and it was more of a pain in the ass than the shitty derailleurs of the time.
  • 7 0
 @mcrumble: They are friction boxes
  • 3 0
 you better focus on FTP tests then, because most bros on PB ain't putting down a 300w FTP and a gearbox is simply going to make their day one lap less.
  • 3 4
 @onawalk: I would not say derailleurs are incredibly reliable... at all. I get maybe half a season on a SRAM derailleur before clutch gets worn out, multiple shifter cables/housing to stay on top of finicky shifting. Don't get me wrong, the modern derailleur does a great job given all the abuse we expose them to, however the gearbox is the superior system without a doubt. Maybe not at the moment, but the potential for a better more reliable system is far greater. I completely agree right now they are not refined enough, but if someone was to develop a low friction, trigger shifted system I would be all over it.
  • 2 0
 @rismtb: except a belt! :-)
  • 8 0
 @TurboDonuts: big derailleur doesn’t want you to know this one simple trick
  • 3 0
 +1 for 4 years on a pinion zerode with nothing but 5 min annual oil changes.
  • 7 0
 @CarbonShmarbon: that’s all good my man. No need to lie on the internet. I live in NZ, zerodes were insanely popular, I’ve worked on a ton of them in the shop. Concept was cool, but faded and so did the gearbox hype.

They ones bought are still around and popular in the used market. But they haven’t been this silver bullet in the maintenance train for most, and they be heavy. Which if it matters or not, who knows.

I want it to work, like new shit. But Williams Racing Products seems to be on the trail with a derailleur in a can system.
  • 2 0
 @bonfire: i dont quite know how theyre going to get round the beone/petespeed patents on that one though as it does essentially the same thing shunting a casette side to side??? unless the policy is to just wait it out
  • 6 0
 @sanchofula: and I hope it’s great for you. I don’t have a horse in this race. Buy all the gearbox bikes you want. In my market, there were so many of the things and the customers that had forked out for them new mostly weren’t impressed and we had lots of battles with them. The suspension kinematic benefits are sweet. I just haven’t really seen this significant decrease in maintenance that is touted. Again, across dozens of bikes over a couple years.

I’m running XTR on a GX eagle cassette and I check the hanger like once a year usually when I strip down and do frame bearings. Lube the chain when it squeaks. Rarely change my cable/housing. I’ve never had a problem with a derailleur on a personal
Bike, ever. But obviously being in a shop, I fix lots of them. So my anecdote about derailleurs is equal to your anecdote about your gearbox. Been great for us.
  • 6 0
 @EricHarger: back when I was in Canada, we pushed gates onto anyone who would listen for commuters. What a dream, quiet, soft pedal feel, no maintenance and clean.

Companies were making lots of commuter frames to accept a belt. Everyone loved them until Canadian winter came. Especially cycle couriers, they had a hell of a time with the belts, in winter, putting actual miles on them. I still think they’re the dream, especially in commuter world. Just have flaws that should be talked about.

My $550 Globe Daily 1, singlespeed did 6 years of daily commuting year round in Canada and other than tires and brake pads I never changed a thing in that singlespeed chain drivetrain. Until I cracked the frame. Just a singular anecdote, to go along with yours.

Again, like I keep saying. Not against the belt or the gearbox. Just that I actually work on a lot of bikes in these two markets and this is what I’ve learned. They’re real cool to tell your mates about until they aren’t. Can always find a chain and a derailleur, best of luck trying to find a shift joint for a pinion or a belt in a stock. Or you punch a hole in the case on an awkward rock.
  • 5 1
 @mcrumble: move to shimano and get a rebuildable, an adjustable and replaceable clutch. 4th season on an XTR mech. Open the clutch up once a year and grease it. Do it when I do frame bearings and such. Thing is crazy reliable, never misses a beat, and rides couple times a week.
  • 1 1
 A clean, tight, and functional gear box can revolutionize our equipment. This electronic trash won't.
  • 3 0
 @DirtCrab: Honestly until a trigger shifter happens and there is shifting under load, I can't see myself ever buying one. I am running Microshift and the amount of maintenance on it is very little. I may have to tune it like every 4-6 months but that takes maybe 5 minutes and then regularly clean it. So unless I can run a belt I don't see a massive savings in maintenance time.
  • 1 0
 Agreed -- the one standard I wouldn't mind if they changed. Gearboxes that can shift under load are the future.
  • 2 0
 @bitterbiker: Friction boxes make sense for e bikes because of the excessive power of the motor, but the Lal Supre drive is the best option for regular bikes. Supre beats all of the Shimano ideas detailed in this article from a clearance and efficiency perspective, and high pivot suspension is only going to get better with time.
  • 1 0
 @pruss1: yes but it also relocates all the weight to the bb
  • 1 0
 @faul: yes and I think Orange also put out a prototype
  • 2 0
 @DirtCrab: I forget the details and don't have time to look them up right now, but there is a thumb shifter assembly available for Pinion gearboxes so you can ditch the twist shift. I'm interested in Zerodes, too.
  • 1 1
 @mininhi: There's more than a modicum of wisdom to a front derailleur. Swapped a 2x10 to 1x11 on one of the three bikes I regularly ride - because after mostly riding my other 1x's - I'd totally lost the skill to manage a front D. But at the same time had to mount a 28T ring, to manage many of our ascents. And I'd lost so much range on the other end (even with an 11x46) that spinning out has become a regular part of my life. My wife has retained her 2x10, and proves in comparison that if you can still manage a front D with a degree of aplomb - and still find made-for rings - you may very well find life at the extremes of your cassette to be happier places.
  • 4 0
 @mcrumble: modern derailleurs simply are reliable, full stop.
I’m not entirely sure what you’re using, or how many miles you’re putting on, but compared to drivetrains of even 10years ago, they are great.
I ride a tonne, and regularly maintain 3 bikes, that get ridden daily. I haven’t replaced a derailleur that wasn’t damaged by my own stupidity, in years.
The one that I did replace, would have destroyed any tension device used on a gearbox anyway, and did destroy my wheel so my day was done anyhow.

They simply work well, are easy to maintain, and if you can’t be bothered to do some quick maintenance on cables and tension, then the rest of your bike is going to let you down as well
  • 3 1
 @onawalk: Guys like Mcbumble are either complete mechanical hypochondriacs who are convinced one nic or slight twist equates to a broken part, or they are simply lying because they think saying they blow through parts faster than anybody else equates them being a gnarly good rider. No reasonable person regardless of skill or miles traveled should be going through 2 derailleurs a year and if you truly are all that means is 1: you ride like an idiot, or 2: you suck at equipment setup causing severe premature failure.
  • 1 0
 @islandtrader: I'm reasonably fit and can still use the 30/50 for a steep climb (IE slightly off seat and crouched so front wheel doesn't lift). But I'm no longer a spring chicken either.
  • 3 0
 @nskerb: I hear ya, I really do.
I will say,that man do I go through alu wheels, 3 rear wheels this season, until I sucked it up and bought some WAO carbon hoops.
I’m hard on parts, not for lack of skill, but a complete lack of mechanical sympathy. I tend to ride my bike like it owes me money, cause that’s how I enjoy it. Usually a wheel set, and a set of pedals annually, along with all the regular maintenance, and suspension service. But derailleurs and cranks, hardly ever nowadays, and I’m only riding jankier stuff, at higher speeds.
I get that others are harder, and easier on stuff, but I’m just not seeing damaged derailleurs, and janky shifting like I used to.

I do understand your sentiment
  • 1 0
 @onawalk: thats an incredible amount of equipment destruction.. Do you use ryno-lites from the 90's or something?

Even a heavy - hard riding individual shouldn't be obliterating stuff that much.
  • 1 0
 @pruss1: I hear ya,
Again, no mechanical sympathy at all.
DTSwiss Ex 471’s I could get a season out of, but we’re always more difficult to find.
This season was a
Mercury rear rim, and freehub (this was a hold over from the previous season, and lasted for a full season, hand built).
Stan’s rear hubx2 (free hub, and somehow cracked the body and bearings)
Stan’s Flow EX rear rim (hand built)
Stan’s Arch front rim (presumably machine built)

I had enough, now the big bike has Unions, and the little bike will prolly get Factions

I’m stout, and live in a very rocky area, and seek out janky riding. In all that time, no derailleurs….

When I rode Rhyno lites, I was out East, they didn’t last long, but I was lighter, and maybe more skilled?
But D321’s 36 hole, hand built, were my go-to
  • 2 1
 @mininhi: I never thought of a rack & pinion derailleur. Now that is definitely out-of-the-box, but extremely logical. Definitely worth some prototyping. Good idea.
  • 1 0
 It's been ten years since Nuseti came out with a sixteen speed gearbox bike. It looked important. It died. Anybody know why? Maybe cost, but if the bike is what they said it was, seems like a lot of people should have been interested.

bikerumor.com/kickstarter-nuseti-inner-drive-mountain-bike-from-national-champ-downhiller
  • 2 0
 @garthpool: cause no one wants a 30lb XC bike with the drag of a boat anchor attached to it.
Their claims of 23lbs are pretty dubious, when a current Scott Scale is 20lbs.
  • 1 0
 @onawalk: May we conclude that putting a gearbox on a bike violates your sense of propriety?
  • 1 0
 @garthpool: yeah,
They’re not the answer,
The Williams idea looks great, and prolly the best possible solution.
  • 2 1
 @onawalk: Sorry I missed that Williams idea. Please direct me to it.
  • 2 1
 @garthpool: what a world we live in when people can’t do a quick internet search of things they’re interested in, even when given the company that’s developing it, and the link is simply a couple posts above.

Here ya go, derailleur in a can, prolly real similar to what Honda did in WC DH racing

www.instagram.com/reel/CkrhSeSBSm0/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY
  • 2 1
 @onawalk: I see the link now. There is no indication that it shows Williams' derailleur in a can, so I had missed it.

Also before I asked for your help, I searched the Williams website. So far as I can tell, it does not even mention that device.

Our world is one in which ill-mannered people can immediately express their irrational contempt for another to most of the population of the planet with a few keystrokes.
  • 3 1
 @garthpool: you’re right, I’m glad you picked up on it

I don’t think there’s anything irrational about my contempt.
Mostly just a little sarcasm, but I understand i can sometimes come off as a little aggressive.
For that, I do apologize, and that’s not meant to be sarcasm either.

The der in a can looks great though doesn’t it, and way better than any current draggy, heavy gearbox
  • 2 1
 @onawalk: It is a good-looking speed changer. I hope Williams keeps at it. In the meantime, I suppose we won't be seeing any details of how it works. At least I can't figure it out from the Instagram page. Probably the mechanism is close to what Honda and some others did.

It is possible to get gear action with a standard bike cogwheel, or sprocket. Drive it with a reverse sprocket. That is, a wheel that uses the pins and rollers of a roller chain in place of gear teeth. If this is not clear, I can look up a patent that shows it.

This design avoids the problems with gears. The wheels don't cost as much. They are lighter. They don't require lubrication or precise mounting and alignment. And I suppose they would run as efficiently as a chain-driven sprocket, better than a pair of gears would. Especially since they would always be in the best alignment, no cross-chaining there.
  • 2 0
 @americandentalassociation: any day now,
You angling for an invite?
  • 36 0
 Everything old is new again:
www.disraeligears.co.uk/site/suntour_xc_derailleur_3_pulley_system.html

I wrenched all of the 90s and only ever saw one of them.
  • 2 0
 I was going to comment on how it was similar, but with only two wheels on the Suntour on my 80's Bridgestone, but yours is even MORE similar.
  • 1 0
 thanks, I remembered that one immediately now I don't have to google search for it
  • 3 0
 My understanding is that the one from Shimano has a cage with a rotating cage at the ends. The one from Suntour looks rigid. I don't see why they went with an extra pulley there.
  • 5 0
 @taprider: That Nivex derailleur is WILD. I get where he's coming from (downtube friction shifters needing a ton of friction to prevent slipping, solved by using two cables) but holy cow. Double the cables, proprietary derailleur mount, and $1000 in parts to run fancy downtube shifters is bananas. Thanks for sharing.
  • 2 0
 @TEAM-ROBOT: neat concept. curious if it'd be feasible to build something like the above shimano unit, but with a forward chainstay mount, so the overall mechanism is considerably shorter / perhaps simplified. the overall idea of moving excess chain forward rather than down, seems reasonable.
  • 1 0
 I have one of these they work wonderful. Whats old is new again when people forget.
  • 2 0
 @vinay: Maybe read the linked website?


"So what in heaven’s name is this? SunTour were wrestling with the demands of the new mountain bikes, with their triple chainsets and huge gear capacities. They hated the very long pulley cages, which had limited ground clearance and irritating chain slap - so they invented the ‘3 Pulley System’. With one brilliant stroke it gave huge capacity with a relatively short cage. Ground clearance was restored, chain slap minimised."
  • 1 0
 @JohSch: Alright, I should have looked better indeed. Thanks for setting me straight there. Yeah I get their point now. However, what Shimano seems to try and realize here is to put the mass center of the cage at the pivot so that it won't move as much when the rear wheel vibrates. Making the cage shorter is a good one as it reduces the inertia of the cage. My rear mech is Shimano Zee and I just accept the limited range (11-36 cassette). I just don't want one of these longer cages.
  • 5 0
 the EGS up cage is behind the Shimano patent
www.disraeligears.co.uk/site/egs_up_cage_derailleur.html

Shimano bought the intellectual property from EGS's creator
www.disraeligears.co.uk/site/us_patent_6793598_-_shimano.html
  • 1 0
 @vinay: I agree - surely the chain goes in and out of that mech in exactly the same places as it would if you removed the extra pulley. Weird... The Shimano one, on the other hand, might actually work
  • 1 0
 @TEAM-ROBOT: except they are not friction. Index only LOL.
  • 1 0
 @mountainsofsussex: No, I don't question the functionality. The goal is to have accommodate for the wide range without a low dangling cage. It does that. What it doesn't do is cancel the tendency of the cage to flap around when riding rough terrain. If the Shimano cage is properly balanced, it could in fact largely balance that. They just set different goals and I have no doubt they can achieve that.
  • 1 0
 @Happymtbfr: That old EGS derailleur is a SUPER cool history lesson, and like you said it looks like exactly the inspiration for this new design. Thanks for the info.
  • 1 0
 @hevi: Weird. Now I'm truly puzzled. But I thought it said it's compatible with any cassette spacing, 6 speed to 12 speed?
  • 1 0
 @TEAM-ROBOT: Indexing started with Dura-Ace six.
  • 1 0
 @hevi: Yup, indexed downtube shifters have been around for a nice long while. What I'm saying is if the new Rene Herse Rivex derailleur is designed to work with any cassette spacing from 6-speed to 12 speed, you would think it would use a friction shifter on the downtube with (essentially) unlimited chain positions instead of using indexing that would seemingly require you to change the indexes for 6 speed vs. 7 speed vs. 8 speed vs. 9 speed vs. 10 speed vs. 11 speed vs 12 speed spacing. You can't run the same index shifter for a 6 speed freewheel as a 12 speed cassette without making some sort of internal modification to the indexing.
  • 22 0
 Like the Shimano derailleur design. More ground clearance, less chain slap.
  • 4 0
 looks like it would flex a ton to me....
  • 2 1
 A lot of patents are designed to block competition from making something and never go anywhere. This one looks like it might actually be produced. Nothing pie in the sky about the concept. Looks like a pretty viable concept. More clearance with minimal drawbacks. Will be very interesting to see where this goes.
Edit: More chainslap potentially. Chain will be closer to the stay on the underside. Not a big deal, rubber will fix that.
  • 2 2
 @ppp9911: Looks like a Microshift Acolyte to me.
  • 2 0
 @ppp9911: The jockey wheel that does the shifting is still close to the cassette and that's where all the side loading is so it should be okay. The other two are just for chain tension.
  • 2 1
 Double the outer cages made of soft mozzarella cheese sticks!
  • 1 0
 might be good since it's all tucked up and seems like it may allow for running a shorter chain as well so weight difference may be a wash
  • 3 0
 Yeah, I think it is good. Because the mass center of a conventional cage is away from its pivot, it tends to move as the rear wheel vibrates over rough terrain. That's what's causing the uneven lower chain tension which in turn could cause the chain to drop. The clutch is just a crutch. And the huge cages that come with these modern wide range drivetrains make matters even worse. By getting the mass center of the cage closer to that pivot, the shaking of the rear wheel won't cause it to rotate hence the chain will be more steady. Indeed the guide pulley already works a bit like a tension pulley on modern designs (like those from Microshift), being above that pivot. But this design actually balances it properly, which is nice.
  • 2 0
 Meh. I'm holding out for 4 pulley wheels.
  • 1 0
 Why would you think less chain slap? The bottom run of the chain is going to be much closer to the chainstay in many positions with the new design. You would probably need chainslap protectors on both top & bottom of the chainstay in this case.
  • 1 4
 @kcy4130: this looks designed just to piss on Lal Bike's Supre drivetrain. A lot of similarities between both, and the way the chain is driven by the pulleys.
  • 1 0
 @justinfoil: Shorter chain, shorter ring-bulley distance and - I think - more tension possible.
  • 1 0
 @kcy4130: elevated chainstay...problem solved!
  • 1 0
 @benpinnick: that's what I was thinking too.
  • 5 0
 www.disraeligears.co.uk/site/egs_up_cage_derailleur.html
Shimano acquired small French company EGS along with all of their patents, one of them was this design of a derailleur.
  • 15 1
 Still waiting for wireless brakes. I mean, headtube routing is so 2022.. Too soon?
  • 1 0
 no cables at all would be nice haha
  • 10 0
 On a different note anyone saw the new rene herse derailleur? I'd love to read an entire pinkbike comment section about that piece of work - bikepacking.com/news/rene-herse-nivex-derailleur
  • 2 0
 Remotely similar of the SunTour S1. Nice
  • 8 0
 That would be hilarious. So many extra cables, weird weird weird standards, an annoying shifter and an insane price. Several of pinkbikes most hated things rolled into one.
  • 2 0
 @Darwin66: Looks like dropping the wheel out would be a pain as well.
  • 2 0
 "Analog Shifting Perfection" operated digitally
  • 2 0
 What a stupid design - and someone even did a race with it according to the article? Poor fella.
  • 1 0
 @JohSch: Not just a race, setting the FKT
  • 1 0
 @Vindiu: I was giggling that those low end bikes that had the S1 OEM might be the only natively compatible frames out there that the Herse derailleur might work with
  • 12 4
 FFS, design suspension on bikes that are all mountain or burlier around a 26t or 28t front NW chainring. Then you can run an 10/11- 42t cassette, increasing ground clearance and reducing weight. Seriously, W.T.F., very few people are maxing out their cadence on their all mountain bikes on the way down.
  • 1 0
 I can spin out on flat with a 34/10. Harder gears matter for those that don't only do steep rough off road DHs where you tend to brake more than pedal.
  • 8 0
 Soon my brain will crack under the load of new industry standards and wireless signals, so im about to build up full rigid 24” wheeled, 3x7 shimano tourney equipped capable racing machine.

The truth is out there!
  • 3 0
 You had me until 24".
26", sure.
  • 9 3
 I will hold out for the 8 Piston Code 29.999999's and the 4 Pulley XTR Rapid Rise Rear derailleur/w Biopace. Financing available for approved buyers.................
  • 4 0
 Looks neat. But...why nut just do a "modern" hammerschmidt? Short cage derailleur/narrow range cassette. 2 speed gearbox in/around BB somewhere.

Maybe the "lower" gear is direct drive so no loss in efficiency for climbing, then "overdrive" high gear might be a slight loss (not a gearbox expert so I don't know how that actually works).

Or shit...put it in the rear hub. Seems like we're just over-complicating with these massive cassettes and huge derailleurs, right?
  • 2 0
 2 speed internal rear hub with a cassette freehub? That's a Classified Powershift.

3 speed internal rear hub with a cassette freehub? That was a Sachs (later SRAM) DualDrive.
  • 4 1
 "as the pads wear and the pistons advance to compensate, they rarely advance evenly, leading to uneven pad wear, brake rub and poor brake performance"

Yet the same company has been praising their poorly performing brakes for the past 25 years.
  • 6 0
 Totally need 3 Ceramic Speed pulleys for my new Shimano derailleur.
  • 2 0
 The original Mountain Cycle Pro Stop disc brakes had a floating rotor that was pushed to a fixed pad from a piston. It was a hydraulic calliper but was cable actuated. I had a set of these on my San Andreas in 1993, before V-brakes came out.
  • 1 0
 "Will we see a wireless electronic derailleur from Shimano? I wouldn't hold my breath.."

Why not? What's the deal with Shimano not moving towards wireless? I was looking forward to their take on it and am obviously out of the loop.
  • 4 1
 The tea is that SRAM eTap and Campagnolo EPS patents have completely blocked Shimano from releasing a wireless derailleur or shifter.
  • 6 0
 Shimano already have 3 road groups with wireless shifters.
  • 5 0
 @Riggbeck: Yup, sorry I was unclear. Shimano is unable to produce a wireless shifter that communicates with a wireless derailleur. Currently the Di2 road stuff communicates with the battery pack/transmitter which is located separate from the derailleur, and they run a little wire out to the derailleur. They can't get rid of that little wire without violating other people's patents.
  • 1 0
 @Riggbeck: not true wireless.
  • 1 0
 How do they even get a patent for something as simple as wireless shifting?
  • 1 0
 @IntoTheEverflow: by putting in the application first. The creator patented paperclips when they first invented them. That's a bent bit of wire.
  • 1 0
 @Patrick9-32: The paperclip was an inventive design.

Wireless shifting is just generic use of an already existing technology.
Things like that should not be allowed to get patented imo.
  • 1 0
 @Patrick9-32: You cannot patent a basic concept such as wireless shifter or holding bits of paper together, just the expression of it. i.e. the mechanics/electronics of how you do it. Otherwise, no-one would be allowed to sell different ways of doing just about anything.
  • 1 0
 Why isn't anyone mentioning that the Shimano idea isn't just splitting the cage into 2 pieces, it's got to be splitting it into 3 pieces. The upper wheel can't be rigidly connected to the middle cage, as shown by the last diagram: the upper axle (RA1) moves from above the cage pivot (PA1) to below it.

In fact, I have to wonder of the mid-cage is actually fixed position. That certainly would remove a ton of complexity that would come from having 2 independent cages sharing the P-knuckle (PA1). And the "cable or wire-based system that would create a cam system to pull the second cage into position", that Cycling News noted, is more likely to connect the second cage to the clutch, which seems to remain at the P-knuckle (PA1).
  • 3 0
 Oh, and by the way. Sachs first hydraulic disc brake was a floating caliper design, reminiscent of this new Sram idea. Sram bought Sachs-Huret in 1997, so there you have it.
  • 1 0
 Imagine your rotors having play in them. With all that lateral movement they eventually will likely wear to a point where the rotor is moving in all sorts of planes it's not supposed to
  • 2 0
 Does anybody know why a clutch isn’t used on gearboxes to make shifting under power possible? In my head it makes sense but since I’m not an engineer I really don’t know. Can anybody provide some insight?
  • 2 0
 A clutch does the opposite: it keeps the power away from the gearbox while shifting
  • 1 0
 @MartinKS: yes that I’m thinking having a clutch to separate the transmission from pedals would work if the shifter doubled as a clutch as well.
  • 1 0
 I run a 28T chainring (oval) with an XT 10-45 cassette. Allows me to use a medium cage derailleur which has less of a chance to hit something. Has the same low speed range as a typical 10-52 with a 32 T ring but I do lose a bit of top speed. No big deal for my riding or most others - I would imagine. Also has the benefit of a medium pizza looking better than a large pizza.
  • 1 0
 For f*88s sake gearbox on mtb - why are the big boys still playing at a better mousetrap other than repeating consumables I still ride my nicolai gboxx nucleon- not all the time it’s a bit of a boat anchor but it’s a dh/ bike that could/can go uphill (maybe not so much at 58 years old - no new bike for me until I see e and box and maybe linkage forks too - like time cost quality pick 2 I’ve got those combos already on bikes but would like all 3 for 23 ( probably 24)
  • 3 0
 Wouldn't that sram floating rotor just touch off on the pads and squeal like a misaligned caliper constantly?
  • 6 4
 Don't sram brakes already squeal like a stuck pig?
  • 3 0
 I also don't get why they haven't just gone with a conventional floating caliper instead of a floating rotor. Seems much easier to realize and it will be noisy all the same. Gustav was a powerful brake and unlike the other models, they kept it largely unchanged until they retired it. The likes of Sabrina Jonnier used to run a Gustav caliper with a Louise master and did fairly well at the time, so the rubbing can't have been too bad.
  • 1 0
 @vinay: Hmmm. Sabrina on Maguras? On what team was that? Honest question.

Anyway, there was a time when Gustavs came with the same lever as the Louise. The combo was that bad that Magura would change it for you for the lever lever (the black one) free of charge. So... what are we talking about? Smile
  • 1 0
 @Maxipedia: My memory just goes by old images in Dirt magazine. I recall seeing a picture of her running pink Louise 2008 masters (the first batch was pink) with a Gustav caliper. So that must have been 2008, maybe late 2007 but I'm not sure about that. I don't even know whether she was sponsored by Magura at the time. This was a time when lots of riders eventually moved to a Shimano/Fox deal or full SRAM. Sabrina for instance moved on to Shimano/Fox.

What I was talking about is that she was successfully running a floating caliper in WC DH racing.
  • 3 0
 Shimano bought the EGS patents when the French company folded down. This here is an 2evolution" of the EGS Upcage.
  • 1 0
 The floating brake is a neat idea, but not new as that is similar to how standard automotive brakes work with the pistons on one side against a brake pad and a floating caliper/pad carrier on the other.
  • 4 0
 sIngle-sided brake calipers - aren't sram calipers always like that?!?
  • 1 0
 Every sram brake I have had has problems with discs rubbing and pistons not coming out evenly. If they just knew how to make a quality calliper they wouldn't need a ridiculous new design.
  • 3 0
 look like EGS derailleur!!!
  • 3 0
 Yes, 90' french EGS Upcage. I own two of them Smile Nice component
  • 1 0
 It would be awesome if Shimano could make a really killer gearbox. That would make Sram nervous. I can't imagine any of their competitors are worried about that contraption.
  • 6 5
 Of course SCAM has a patent for a brake system that once again changes another standard. Maybe they should patent a brake system that works first.
  • 1 2
 Meh... solutions to problems that dont exist. Its a bike, a simple machine. You are not going to get an appreciable gain going from a chain & sprocket to a "gearbox". And the manufacturer isnt going to sell more bikes if they developed a gearbox. These are "defensive" patents. They dont intent to make these things, but just in case, they want to prevent others as well.

You could progress and progress the bike forever until it isnt a bike anymore... but we already have those options.
  • 3 0
 Adding complexity make everything last longer......
  • 1 0
 3 pulley derail?
SunTour’s got ya beat with the XC that was offered in the 3 pulley configuration back in the days of yore…
  • 1 0
 Three piston brakes...would it not be better to make just one large piston?
  • 2 1
 So THAT'S why SRAM Codes are heavily discounted everywhere... get 'em while you can!
  • 1 0
 Shimano is trying to do a high pivot derailleur with that three pulley design
  • 1 0
 Should have been an innovation from Ceramic Speed so they could have earned a minimum 50% rise in selling pulleys.
  • 6 7
 I already have no speed to get over anything remotely technical at 51T why on earth would you want more. How about something cheaper with less maintenance.
  • 5 3
 Push a bigger chain ring.
  • 5 0
 @bonfire: I don't need to go faster on my 11T.
Gearing is very personal so I expect someone in the himalayas to need a 100T. I'm just saying I really think we are on the edge of usable range for most people with 50T
  • 1 0
 One word: "range". 10t is pretty much the smallest that works well (and that "well" is still arguable, many people would rather go back to 11t, or even 12t, small cogs) with 1/2" pitch chains. If you could fit a 60t on the back, then you could run like a 40t chainring and get a nice tall highest-gear of 4:1, like the 44t to 11t high gear of old triples, while keeping the reasonable climbing gear around 2:3 (40t to 60t) or 3:5 like the current very common 30t to 50t.
  • 1 1
 @howejohn: If you don't need to go faster on your 11t, hence you don't need a bigger chainring, then a 100t rear cog would be useless. You can't pedal fast enough to create enough speed to stay upright with a 30t to 100t setup. Berm Peak has proven this, he did a like 72t cog with I think a 26t ring. Almost impossible to ride, though he did manage to move his tractor with it, IIRC.
  • 4 2
 I have climbs where a 32x50 is still a massive struggle (and I have a pretty high w/kg), and places where I need that 32x10 to clear larger gaps on jumps. So yeah, more is just fine for me.

We don't ride in the same places.
  • 1 0
 Another vote for gearbox R&D!
  • 2 2
 Push more watts. This solves 99% of all drivetrain complaints BTW.
  • 1 0
 When you want the jockey wheel but not the high-pivot.
  • 1 1
 At this rate we´ll end up with Mountain Biking for golfers and NASA workers and Mountain Biking for the rest of humans
  • 1 0
 Internally routed wires all powered by your ebike battery
  • 2 1
 I want to see wireless brakes become a reality!
  • 1 0
 I like the idea, and I've thought about it too, but the severity of harm associated with a failure could be catastrophic. I'm steering away from this one.
  • 1 0
 PTSD from engineering school kicking in...
  • 6 7
 That Shimano contraption seems like a desperate move to undercut Lal Bikes' Supre Drive.
  • 7 0
 Or like, an obvious adaptation for those who don't want a high pivot bike? I would prefer to see the chain tensioning happen behind the crankset like is often done with Pinion bikes though.
  • 2 1
 Yep. Lal Bikes SUPRE still way better imo.
  • 3 0
 @IluvRIDING: The benefit of being able to put this on any bike will outweigh the constraints of Lal. Sorry to say.
  • 2 0
 @vapidoscar: Actually manufacturers are not concerned about retrofitting that much. Maybe the even prefer stuff, that you can't retrofit, so you need to buy a new bike to have the latest and gratest. Not saying that this patent is a bad thing. I can see it on XC bikes where you don't want an idler pulley design. Ontherwise on anything with an idler, the Lal bikes thing is better.
  • 2 1
 Call me when we get ABS.
  • 3 0
 @souknaysh: that didn’t take long
  • 1 0
 Even the world cup guys dont need this. Get a motorcycle.
  • 2 0
 ABS in the muddy ruts in my part of the world would just mean i wouldn't ever be able to stop
  • 3 3
 Gearboxes and a quiet belt drive please.
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