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First Ride: Raaw Madonna V3 - Better Than Ever

Nov 8, 2023 at 12:44
by Mike Kazimer  
Raaw Madonna V3

It's been seven years since Raaw first presented the aluminum-framed Madonna to the mountain bike world. Version 2.0 was released back in 2020, and now it's time to introduce the third iteration of this no-frills, high performance machine.

At first glance the Madonna V3 doesn't look all that different from the prior version, and the basics of the bike do remain the same. The frame is still aluminum, with 160mm of travel, the bearings are big and well sealed, and the housing is routed externally for easy servicing. Take a closer look, though, and the tweaks and refinements that Raaw implemented start to show up – the top tube is lower, the rocker link has been slimmed down, and the downtube allows for more shock clearance.
Madonna V3 Details

• 160mm travel, 170mm fork
• Aluminum frame
• 29" wheels (mixed wheel shock mount available)
• Sizes: S, M, L, XL, XXL
• Weight (size L): 35.8 lb / 16.2 kg
• Price: frame kits from €2,790, rolling chassis from €4,945.
raawmtb.com

The Madonna V3 is available to order now, with delivery expected in February 2024. The bike is available as a frame only or as a rolling chassis, but Raaw won't be offering any complete bikes.


Raaw Madonna V3

Raaw Madonna V3
The chainslap protector works well, and also covers the derailleur housing.
Raaw Madonna V3
Different lower shock mounts are available to adjust the BB height, progression, or to run a 27.5" rear wheel.

Frame Details

At a time when some companies are doing everything they can to cram housing through headsets, Raaw's dedication to fully external routing deserves to be commended. The path of the rear derailleur housing is as straight as possible in order to minmize friction-inducing bends, and according to Raaw they wanted to show just how smooth a mechanical drivetrain could be.

For riders that want to go the wireless electronic route, UDH-compatible seatstays are available that make it possible to run SRAM's T-Type drivetrain (they're also available for the previous generation Madonna & Jibb).

The Madonna was designed around a 170mm fork, but it is dual crown compatible as long as the max axle-to-crown height is maintained (that equates to a 180mm fork), and it will accept the same bolt-on fork bumpers used on the Yalla downhill bike. On the topic of frame protection, there's a new chainstay protector that runs over the top of the derailleur housing, and a 5mm thick pad on the bottom of the downtube.

The main and rocker pivots have been updated with wider bearings and new axles that run through the bearing race in order to reduce the likelihood of creaking developing. Protective covers are in place over all the bearings, another step towards making the Madonna as weather-resistant as possible.



Raaw Madonna V3 review

Geometry

The Madonna now comes in five sizes, with reach numbers starting at 430mm, and increasing in 25mm increments up to 530mm on the XXL. The chainstay length varies depending on the size, but it's also adjustable by plus or minus 5 millimeters by switching the dropout insert.

The head angle has been slackened by .5-degrees, and now sits at 64-degrees. The use of a straight head tube allows for angle-adjusting headsets to easily be used for riders looking for more extreme or conservative geometry. As it is, the numbers all look very well thought out, and Raaw says that the stock settings are what they recommend, at least initially.

For riders that want to tinker, the adjustments first seen on the Raaw Yalla DH bike have been brought over to the Madonna. There are different lower shock mounts available that can be used to raise or lower the bottom bracket by 3mm, or increase or decrease the shock progression by 3%. The changes can be combined too; there are mounts that will raise the BB and also change the shock rate.

Raaw Madonna V3

Suspension Design

The Madonna keeps its Horst link suspension layout, but the amount of progression has increased to 26%. The goal with the changes was to help the shock start compressing as soon as the rear wheel hits the ground, and I'd say Raaw succeeded – it's very impressive how smoothly the bike goes into its travel.

There are two different rocker links available – the 60 and 65 – that are used to change the leverage ratio depending on rider weight. The 60 is for riders under 90 kg and uses a 60mm stroke shock, while the 65 is for riders over 90 kg and uses a 65mm shock. The progression is nearly identical between the two, at 26% for the 60 and 23% for the 65.

Raaw Madonna V3


Ride Impressions

When I reviewed the previous version of the Madonna, I said that it was one of the best cornering bikes I'd ever ridden. I've spent time on dozens of bikes since writing those words, but it turns out that's still the case with the updated model. Its ability to hold a line through a rough, chopped up corner is remarkable – it's calm and stable, while still delivering an engaging ride. The low bottom bracket, tall front end, and relatively long chainstays all work together to create a bike that can maintain speed very well.

The geometry makes it easy to stay centered in the middle of the bike, and push into turns as hard as possible without worrying about losing traction. The positioning sort of reminds me of standing up on a scooter, but in a good way – it makes it easier to absorb impacts, compared to being too hunched over or stretched out.

I'm a big fan of bikes that feel like they encourage you to go faster, or to send it extra deep just to see what'll happen, and the Madonna is firmly in that category. It's quiet and composed without feeling too muted or dull, and it can smash down a rough trail with the best of them, especially when it's set up with a coil shock.

Raaw sent out my test bike with a Float X air shock and an Ohlins TTX22 coil shock, and I also have the shock mount to run it with a mixed-wheel setup. I'll be experimenting with the various configurations over the next few months and report back with my findings. The weather will likely vary between wet and wetter, so it'll be a good chance to see how those bearing seals work too.







For more pictures of the Madonna V3, head on over to the album here.



Author Info:
mikekazimer avatar

Member since Feb 1, 2009
1,752 articles

348 Comments
  • 226 6
 Raaw, everything Transition could be!
  • 74 1
 Oh no … I ride a transition, but live literally 45 minutes away from the RAAW factory - maybe I need a new bike?
  • 28 1
 @velomountain I actually own both a Tranny V2 sentinel and a Raaw madonna v2.2, and I agree with this statement wholeheartedly.
  • 5 1
 @wildthingdh1: tell me more. Love my transitions but would really love to try this.
  • 24 1
 Except the Raaw frame is $1000 more than a Transition alloy frame. Might be a slightly different target market.
  • 2 0
 @wildthingdh1: I also would like to hear a real world comparison. Apart from the obvious increase in travel what's the tangible differences?
  • 5 1
 Looks very much like a sleeker version of my raw alloy Patrol. I like the TR geo better tho.
Also that dropout is kinda weird, is it a flip chip?
  • 7 8
 @michaelheinrich: you live in Taiwan? :-) I think you might live near the warehouse in Germany where they package the bikes for final sale.

It's a nice bike regardless.
  • 66 3
 @BiNARYBiKE: The transition geometry figures and ride characteristics are lovely I will admit especially around my local next of the woods, in the UK. But it is totally unreliable and engineered and manufactured so poorly it has been the most frustrating bike frame I have ever bought or owned. I would sell it but nothing is selling atm and as Transition do actually have a good warranty team and have sort my issues out as and when, but still for £3200 for the frame and shock I expect better quality!!
For the short spells of time I have actually been able to ride it due to waiting for warranty replacement frame parts or repairs to shocks it has destroyed. When i have ridden it, it has eaten bearings out for a past time with play like no other bike i have owned in the last 30 years MTB riding.
I Have had two front triangles due to alignment issues, I have had one rear seat stay assembly because the aluminium bearing insert came loose in the carbon. I have had 4 rocker links (two either side) replaced due to the actual carbonfibre of the groove for the bearing retaining circlip failing whilst riding it.
They have now replaced with rocker links with a different design, they are still made from carbon but with aluminum inserts for the bearings and circlip to sit into correctly. I just hope they don't come loose from the carbon like the seat stay did ? time will tell.
It killed two Fox X2 shocks one Fox Float shock and damaged my my EXT in this time also.
I like to do long trips over to the alps but It couldn't do more than 8 straight days up in Scotland between warranty claims for one thing or another.
So I bought a RAAW madonna v2.2 and it is pretty damn Amazing in comparison from both an engineering and ride characteristics point of view I can tell you. Yes it is heavier but that's due to the actual quality and detailing of whats going on with the design and assembly of the sub components. But this weight makes it handle like a demon down hill and in rough terrain, yes it ain't going to be a bike for massive pedal days though it has not stopped me, but really that's not what its about, this is a bike for people who can actually ride hard, and this bike has already done a 5 week trip out across in Spain and 7 weeks out in the french and Italian alps of constant hard riding, and it has been faultless. I actually can't see a need to even consider buying the V3 to be fair for myself as my V2.2 is a keeper.
  • 31 5
 @wildthingdh1: Thats an incredible list of failures for 1 bike!
Had a V1 Sentinel, absolutely no issues at all, rode the wheels off it for 4 years, and I ride with the guy who traded bikes with me. I replaced the rocker with a Cascade link, and measured the frame tolerances, and it was prolly the best put together bike I have worked on.
Currently have a Spire, 2 seasons, loads of riding, only issue was a shitty Transition stem, and sorting out some headset creaks. No shock issues, bearings, nothing.
Good friend has an alu Spire, same thing, shitty stem, everything else great.

I'll also say, the team at Transition have been great to work with, loads of help with trying different suspension setups, etc.

Bummer to hear about all your issues, I'd be pretty salty if that was my bike as well.
  • 9 1
 @onawalk: I'm with you, just finished my second season on my alu spire, riding around 4 days a week and about 30 days of bike park per season and it has been pretty great bike with very few issues.
  • 2 1
 @onawalk: yes it has been very frustrating really, as I own a Transition TR500 and did own the first gen TR450 aswell and both those frames were solid performers.
  • 7 2
 @wildthingdh1: Dang. Sorry for your troubles. I've been on Transition only for 12 years and have never had a single warranty issue. And I ride pretty hard and pretty often.
  • 5 0
 @wildthingdh1: . I agree with the lovely ride character but not so good quality. One broken chainstay on a previous Patrol. Currently my v1 Sentinel has broken 4 times on me, always in different spots: rocker link and 2 chainstays. The last problem was the alloy bed for the bearing, it detached from the carbon. I paid 30€ to some specialist to repair it with epoxy. It avoided more warranty claims/ waiting time and it’s been fine so far ( jinxin myself here). Tried some other bikes but until now I still have not found something as fun to ride as my Sentinel.
  • 6 1
 I've had multiple transitions and lots of other bikes. last yr finally pulled the trigger on a v.2.2 madonna and couldn't be happier. Yes it and alloy bike yes it will be a bit heavier but if I wanna shave more weight I'll loose some off my gut. Have had zero issues and its my favorite bike to date.
  • 1 0
 [redacted]
  • 1 0
 @onawalk: What did you end up doing for a stem? The only ZS56 upper I can find is a Cane Creek 40.
  • 1 1
 @wildthingdh1: after reading that i feel like i've been pretty lucky to not have had any problems with my Santa Cruz carbon CC bikes and my Specialied carbon fiber bikes i've owned over the years.
  • 2 0
 Much love to RAAW!
  • 6 14
flag nigelnobrakes (Nov 9, 2023 at 13:01) (Below Threshold)
 You've compared the wrong bands they're so different. Transition are spot on with their target audience they have high level carbon frames at a reasonable price and also offer great alloy bikes for those who prefer it. Raaw are more like everything Knolly could be
  • 5 0
 @wildthingdh1: agreed v2 carbon spire. Paint missing from the factory but bit my tongue because I wanted to ride and it was during the Covid bike shortages. Persistent alignment issues. Fox x2’s failing repeatedly. But what finished it for me was the soft as fromage frame linkage bolts. They rounded out so easily just by looking at them. Drilling new bolts out a new frame was the final straw. Well actually no, the final f*ck you moment was the fact the uk distributor had next to no stock of bolts so I had paid £75 to get two bolts from the USA in time for my holiday.

Bought a geometron. Never looked back. Same could be said for Raaw I imagine. I’m done with plastic toy bikes.
  • 4 1
 Literally just switched to a Madonna 2.2 after I cracked my spire
  • 1 0
 @wildthingdh1: I had a TR450 and the paint flaked off in sheets
  • 3 1
 @VelkePivo: well this bike doesn’t even have paint so…
  • 4 1
 @jdejace: Fair and accurate can sting a bit. True that, I appreciate a frame/components made without the outsourcing due to exploitation of foreign workers factor. Complex topic, and it's hard to avoid "virtual slave made" import items when it comes to bikes and related gear. I will say that I personally spend more $ often, but not always, to have craft made, wherever, in-house frames and components. Not easy, but for me, worth the effort and cost. Can we get Frank the Welder to make some enduro frames? Drivetrains and suspension built in Europe or USA? I need a better job for my dream build $20K Fair Trade Trail Bike. Yikes.
  • 1 0
 @wildthingdh1: Did you pay any import duties on your Raaw?
  • 2 0
 @StewartHowe: it is a complex topic, but in this case one could buy a comparable Nicolai Saturn 16 frame for the same price.
  • 1 2
 @devinkalt: m8 i have a santa cruz bronson v2 my first every carbon frame from 2017 that has had 4 years solid hard use, its even been down a few WC DH tracks with no issues with the frame ! and when the bearings did get a bit lumpy or have play, i just got SC UK to give me some more for FREE. I got the Tranny as my friend had one and loved his at the time ! and I wanted to try 29er's but a bike capable of being an all rounder like my Bronson is so pulled the plug on the Tranny as it apparently fit the bill. My friend then suffered a seat stay failure on his and moved the frame on when it was replaced under warranty.
  • 1 1
 @jdejace: The question is is that Saturn 16 really comparable to raaw. There are not many tests of it and those that are are not super positive. I would love to try a Nicolai, but they look less balanced than Raaw.
  • 7 0
 And they don’t make mopeds! +3 points
  • 4 0
 @lkubica: they're both Horst links with a similar leverage curve (similar to each other, similar to many other popular bikes). I doubt one couldn't make the Nicolai work well if they know what they're looking for and know how to set up a bike. I don't personally put much stock in reviews of ride characteristics. Overwhelmingly reviewers are not my size and not running the same suspension and wheels I would so doesn't mean much. Really hard to pin a particular characteristic to the frame itself. The one Sat 16 review that exists looks to me like a dude who didn't get along well with an EXT shock. Is that a frame design issue? I doubt it personally.

In fairness I prefer the RAAW's stack height. I would pay Nic the custom fee for a longer headtube because I prefer Nicolai otherwise, but I recognize that wouldn't be everyone's choice. Based on the recent field test comments though it seems tall stack isn't for everyone anyway.
  • 1 0
 @wildthingdh1: Was it savage?
  • 4 0
 Raaw’s biggest problem is that their v2 and v2.2 Madonna are already so good and bomber that there may be no driving reason for current Raaw owners to upgrade, and major props to Raaw for that!
Plus their after market support is ne plus ultra. Look at their website, spare parts galore at reasonable prices.
  • 1 0
 @bigwheels87: are you mixing stems and headsets?

I went with Title polished bar and stem, like a big chrome bumper on a truck
  • 1 0
 @s15gr: V2 carbon Spire?
I don’t think there’s an updated Spire
  • 1 0
 @onawalk: nah, the headsets on the spire use a zs56 upper, which is hard to find and the stock fsa is not awesome
  • 3 0
 @wildthingdh1: Thats the kind of genuine review or thought process a would be Raww owners wants to hear . Not just the dogmatic review and museing of a paid influencer . I likes the Raww engineering ethos years ago and looking for a well made frame to get me away from my carbon worries.
  • 2 0
 @st-lupo: will stick to my v2.2
  • 2 0
 @bigwheels87: I think you misunderstood me,
I mentioned that i had headset creaks (I just pulled out the bearings, re-greased, and reassembled)

and a shitty Transition stem, which I replaced with Title stem and bar
  • 1 0
 @wildthingdh1: Nice input mate! I own a sentinel v1, no issues and really love it for my style of riding. Having read all the issues of the sentinel v2 and the spire, i'm reluctant to upgrade (even i really like both), and always like the Raaw style and geo. What do you think about the Jibb? Did you have any chance to ride one? Btw, ride spain is awesome!
Cheers!
  • 1 0
 @j-manu: curious, what issues with the Spire?
  • 1 0
 @onawalk: shock alignment/shock issues and some issues with bearings. To me looks like isolated cases anyway, also my sentinel v1 has been completely flawless.
  • 2 0
 @j-manu: Interesting,
My V1 Sentinel was one of the best aligned bikes I had ever taken apart. I installed a Cascade link, and took some measurements while doing it, nothing really out of what you would consider normal spec.
I have carbon Spire, same thing, bike is great, and outside of a real light rebound tune, its a tonne of fun, much more than I would have expected. Buddy has an alu Spire, same thing, bike is solid. We both ride a lot, so they get loads of miles, and I have absolutely no mechanical sympathy whatsoever!

Theres actually 5 Transitions within my group of friends (not sure how that happened, might have been from all the praise I had given them) and there has not been any issues with any of them (except the shitty stems that came stock, those are hot garbage)
  • 1 0
 @onawalk: TR Gang! Well, in the t.o.s.s. facebook group from time to time appears some dude with issues, i think last year were a few alu sentinels v2 and spires and some shock issues but that's on Fox i guess; but as a i say, and with the volume of sales of TR, to me looks like the usual isolated cases; Also TR plays nice with the warranty. The reputation is well deserved, and their bikes handles just fun.

Currently the carbon spire is my logical upgrade, but the sentinel v1 just do fine anytime i ride it. I want to put a cascade link but honestly i just love how it rides even with the kind of out of tune dpx2. Anyways, this is Raaw article, wonder if the Jibb will receive some update also?
  • 2 0
 @wildthingdh1: my V2.1 has taken everything my over optimistic riding can take. Like your V2.2, it’s been a wonder.
  • 89 0
 RAAW might have just built the perfect enduro bike. Balanced, robust, simple, functional, durable, elegant - all at the same time. Plus, a ton of adjustability. I honestly can't think of a box this bike doesn't tick.
  • 17 0
 Indeed.. and they seem to have listened to what we want.. how refreshing
  • 19 10
 As mentioned elsewhere, seat tube insertion is the deal breaker for some. Actually surprised it's not mentioned in the article given the recent dropper length rants in the field test.
  • 20 2
 @jdejace:
I have an XL V2.2 and it fits a 240mm one up dropper, insertion seems plenty to me! Haha
  • 7 4
 @chavlet: I don't doubt you're telling the truth. Depends on your inseam. I certainly couldn't fit the 240 OneUp on the XL with a 470mm tube length and 294mm insertion depth. I could probably fit a 210mm which would be ok but I'd prefer longer as I'd use shorter cranks on an enduro with a -35mm BB which then raises the seat. Other people might already own and/or prefer a different brand of dropper and they're almost all substantially longer from collar to actuator than OneUps. Hence "deal breaker for *some*"

My XL Guerilla Gravity has about an inch more insertion.
  • 3 2
 SWAT/Penalty etc..
  • 38 2
 @jdejace, I’m running a 210mm OneUp on the size large with no issues.
  • 2 0
 @mikekazimer: thanks for chiming in! Don't you have ostrich legs :-) What's your BB to seat rail measurement and how much dropper is exposed above the seat tube collar? I don't ride a large but I'm sure others would be interested in a real data point.
  • 3 0
 @mikekazimer: Could you check how deep the 210mm Oneup fits into the Frame?
Maybe the data Raaw provides is wrong, but they say the Seattube on the L frame ist only 268mm deep.
  • 2 0
 @jdejace: why? I'm 5'11" i run a large with a 210 mm dropper 50 mm reach stem no issue. If you have longer legs just go next frame or two sizes up surely and fit a shorter stem. unless your like a spider all legs no body then better off buying custom built frame.
  • 2 0
 @jdejace: Long OneUp plays, and it’s the perfect product for building one of these. Simple, affordable, adjustable (and fairly light as a bonus).
  • 21 1
 @jdejace: 744mm BB to seat rails. The 210 OneUp can almost be fully slammed - it bottoms out 7mm above what would be the max insertion.
  • 4 0
 @mikekazimer: thank you. So it seems at least on a Large there is almost an inch more insertion than what the apparently conservative spec suggests. Hopefully that holds true for the other sizes. I am a little surprised looking at the shape of the seat tube but you've got one in hand so that's instructive as to what I shouldn't assume at a glance.

You have a longer inseam than me and I'm 4in taller. Just goes to show you the variety in body types.
  • 3 0
 245 max insertion on M, 267 insertable on 180 one up, so it sticks out 2cm making the seat tube feel like 440 instead of 420, is that right? I’ve short legs just checking…
  • 7 0
 Just need internal headset cable routing then we good.
  • 18 1
 @saladdodger: If a bike company did what all the comments here wanted they'd have built a bike akin to the car Homer Simpson built.
  • 4 1
 @everythingsucks: Sort of, they could just straighten the seat tube a la Nicolai Saturn 16, though
  • 2 0
 @chavlet: I have a V2 but it doesn’t fully slam. Mine is low enough that I get occasional creaks when shifting on the post. Probably from where the bottom of the post rubs on the welds at the bottom. 6’4” so it wouldn’t work for someone shorter unless they do a 210mm.
  • 7 0
 Looks a lot like a Privateer which is also reasonably priced in the UK.
  • 1 0
 @jdejace: I have a large v2.2 and can slam a 210 one up and a 200mm fox transfer. Don't really see a problem imho
  • 11 1
 If you like this one (and it looks like a gorgeous, well thought out bike), it's worth also taking a look at Kavenz.

High Pivot, longer seat post insertion, 620g/1.36lb lighter frame, and made in Germany rather than Taiwan.

Can't go wrong with either but I can't resist shouting out a favorite brand Smile
  • 7 0
 @mikekazimer: Thanks! Info like this should be standard on every bike review!
  • 1 6
flag FatSanch (Nov 9, 2023 at 21:11) (Below Threshold)
 The one box it doesn’t tick is not having a box for storage :-/ I also can’t get over the obscenely large bearings at the lower shock mount, where a bushing would work perfectly and be lighter with less maintenance. Otherwise, it’s the bee‘s knees.
  • 2 0
 @thenotoriousmic: Pretty sure they come out of the same factory
  • 2 0
 @jdejace: not so relevant as you can’t really encourage someone to buy a GG anymore. But if a bummer.
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer: at some point the droppers are long enough…
I have a 210 on my Ripmo and I often find I don’t push it fully down, as the last 10-20mm is kinda negligible anyway. It’s well out of the way by then and it just feels a long way to squat down, especially if I’ve just had a quick pedal section and need it out of the way in a hurry.
Yet the insertion on Kenevo Sl is just a touch too short… I’ve yet to really have a problem with the seat not being out of the way. However after years of long droppers I feel it could do with at least 10-20mm more drop (it comes stock with a 170 X dropper and it’s slammed to work for my inseam. S4 @ 183cm tall and forget my actual seam measurement)
So I guess I’m really saying 180 - 210 is now what I consider the sweet spot as far enough out of the way.
  • 1 0
 @JosMaple:We'reall different. If you can slam a 170 post on an S4 you have very different requirements from me. I am only 3cm taller than you but my 210 post has a couple of cm showing above the seat tube. Even though my frame has an ST length that the comment section rejects as too long (508 at 485 reach). My saddle rides about 5cm higher than Mike's.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: yes it does look like a Privateer and yes the Privateer is cheaper, but again its all in the actual details of the frame assembly sub components. For me due to the fact I ride in the UK muck most of the year and like to hang onto my bikes for a bit, I really appreciate the extra design ethos around all the pivots / bearings and I believe they are certainly stronger and better sealed points on the frame than anything else I've owned or worked on, or is currently out there on the market in my opinion for my needs.
I also work in real engineering full time and work on my own bikes and friends bikes often, so can respect it more than most I suppose who just probably ride and get there bikes serviced at a shop and be done with it. So from both a design point of view and longevity of required maintenance of these pivots it is a well thought out design, its a pity more manufactures don't adopt this ethos, but then it does add weight, But I prefer saving cash and time not doing strip downs to check or replace bearings so often.
The bearings are the usual radial bearings like any other bike has, apart from the two obviously larger ones and yes it has the two washers either side of the bearings like most bikes have, BUT these washers are unique on the RAAW as they actually do something rather than fill up with crap, as these have a replaceable rubber seal with groove for it, so these give better sealing from water and dirt ingress. Then there is also a shoulder which goes inside the internal diameter of the bearing, so when the pivot pin is installed the inner race of the bearing is properly clamped unlike some bikes I have found where the pin is worn as the bearing has just span on it. Where the outer race of the bearings are installed in to the frame / parts there are small machined cut outs to enable proper and easy access to remove the bearing correctly when they do require replacement, I've yet to try this out as my bearings are still fine. One thing I do like of this frame is the Rocker link, it is solid and I believe it helps the frame feel solid and properly connected with no noticeable flex, compared to my Transition V2 sentinel I previously mentioned above, that has independent rocker links which flex when ridden hard and is in my opinion a cause of a lot of issues with that frames particular design as a whole as it leads to flex at all points, and because I personally know of far to many riders who have suffered with there Tranny V2 sentinels like I have in my local network of riders, they just don't tend to shout about it like I have. Many have moved there frames on.
There is one annoying thing I don't really like on the V2.2 however and it is a bit of a pain to set it just right so nothing kinks and the suspension travel is not restricted, and that is how the gear cable and brake hose leaves the main frame and goes to the chainstay it's a tight bend, to much for my liking around the that area under the main pivot, but they appear to have changed it on the new frame so that's old news now.
  • 2 0
 @wildthingdh1: 100% got tired of gaffing around with shift cable (clearly my own shortcoming as others have it running great), so I used the excuse to go Sramano AXS. No complaints. Will be hard to find a reason to let the V2.2 go.
  • 1 0
 There's nothing about this Madonna that doesn't appeal to me. I guess I wouldn't mind if it weighed only 18 pounds. ;-)
  • 187 113
 This looks like a bike that’s perfect for bumbling down trails
  • 22 24
 I just logged in to push this comment!

"I'll be experimenting with the various configurations over the next few months and report back with my findings."

But maybe just let it be...not a racer...
  • 119 7
 No one even cared until that video came out. Kazimer spoke before about there being way to much helmet cam footage on YouTube and no one got riled up. I understand both sides, agree with both sides, but the endless comments makes it seem like influencers and people that support them really have a chip on their shoulder in the first place. Or it shows just how much influence the influencers have….

Everyone, I know the internet doesn’t allow for it, but it’s totally ok to have differing opinions. That’s how groups of people work. PinkBike has way bigger issues than expert cyclists being a touch jaded.
  • 38 9
 @birdsandtrees: I don't get it do all the youtube clones think pinkbike should be showing them all on the front page or something
  • 135 4
 To be fair, I think LoamRanger-guy massively took Kazimers quote out of context.

I'm pretty sure what Kaz actually said in that podcast is that he doesn't find youtube videos of average riders very inspiring - with the emphasis very much on the "not very inspiring" part. That's what his statement was about and IMO that is a perfectly reasonable opinion.

I too find clips of pro riders performing feats of great skill a lot more inspiring than footage of people riding at an average or below-average skill level. Doesn't mean I go around and leave a bunch of mean comments under videos I didn't enjoy. I just don't see how that would diminish or invalidate someone's effort.

On the contrary, I honestly find it a bit strange and pretentious when creators overvalue their own creation. Some of them sometimes seem to expect to be applauded and put on a pedestal just because they did a thing - even though that thing might not have been particularly remarkable. That's how it seems to someone like me anyways, who's very much an outsider when it comes to social-media.

By the way, none of what I said applies to Quinney. What he said was downright rude. But I suspect that sort of was the point. He seems like the kind of guy who just enjoys to offend from time to time.
  • 67 7
 @Muscovir: Do you know where I could find these quotes by the pinkbike guys? This is giving me a lot more respect for them lol. The youtube army of shitty gopro riders who think they are special, demand free passes to every bike park, think they should get more exposure, deserves every ounce of disrespect they get
  • 24 1
 @luckynugget: you mean you don't respect the chest cammed blue square hero's authoritay??

www.reddit.com/r/MTB/comments/q80fqt/this_youtuber_barking_at_people_to_pull_over_at_a
  • 11 0
 @luckynugget: source of all this drama here for reference

youtu.be/klRJN4Dhho4?si=Cdj_R478lsO7pOJ4
  • 1 0
 @jdejace: Thank you for the link. I was a bit lost (could tell something was going on).... watching now
  • 16 2
 @birdsandtrees: not really directed at you, your comment was just the most convenient vehicle for responding but why do people care so much in general about who uploads what to youtube? not like they're going to run out of data storage space and purge all the best bike videos as a result... if someone wants to upload crappy helmet cam footage of a benign dirt path to the internet, people can simply *not watch it*.

half the camp says "yOuR'e GaTeKeEpInG" and the other half says the videos suck and don't deserve to be on the internet, as if it's some finite volume that will eventually become full.
  • 10 1
 @mca896: Exactly! It's called "YOU" tube for a reason. It's your channel, post what you want.
  • 79 14
 Kaz and Quinney are doing the Lord's work! Adults calling themselves "creators" for posting shit videos with no purpose besides cheap clickbait entertainment don't deserve much respect, IMO.
  • 20 6
 @luckynugget: I'm sure there are a fair number of guys like that, but LoamRanger is not one of them. Totally respectful guy. Although I think he overreacted a bit, his point about not slagging the littler guys/gals is a fair one.
  • 72 0
 @jdejace: Echoing @bman33's thanks for the link. I couldn't figure out what was going on either.

I did listen to that Pinkbike Podcast and thought nothing of either Henry or Kaz's comments. They were discussing pet peeves, which I take to mean silly sh*t that annoys you when you know it shouldn't. Loam Ranger seems to have Streisand Effect-ed those comments, maybe intentionally for the views.
  • 17 0
 @mca896: appreciate the disclaimer.

I will say there is some very valid critique about the impact more users are having on trails and surround environment/animals and this is not addressed by the people promoting locations to sometimes thousands of people (aka profiting off of their existence). I’m not saying it’s the influencer’s fault, but it’d be nice to see more discussion about this. Also smaller influencers regularly posting unsanctioned stuff and literally directing people step by step how to get there is something I’ve witnessed numerous times. Yes I watch the smaller guys and still don’t agree with loam ranger.

Nate Hills has actually spoken about these dynamics before and how he is complicit in these things and I have a ton of respect for that. He also probably would not care about any of these statements. Still too busy riding bikes.

And finally, loam ranger passes Kaz or Henry on the trail is the conversation gonna go down like this? I am very doubtful. It’d actually most likely be resolved or something and I’m sure all parties would be very respectful and understanding of each other. And with the way YouTube works, like you have to acknowledge loam ranger thought about views when posting this.
  • 15 38
flag slackedmtb (Nov 9, 2023 at 7:22) (Below Threshold)
 @mca896: While lots of content in "Cringe" who the F cares... I glase over ALL the pointless content on YouTube. and TikTok? That's a different level of wasted bandwidth but who cares! I'll doom scroll TikTok and laugh my ass off and get weird breaking news at the same time.

Truth is, Pinkbike is losing viewers to content creators. They are losing ad revenue due to the cycle industry issues and content creators are getting budget, doing reviews, gaining followers. Pinkbike isn't on the top anymore (not sure they ever were...) Pinkbike's snobby view is like the old Instagram algorithm. No ADS! No Promotions! Just shots of my coffee and some over used filter to make me look like an artist.

I think once Kaz and Henry have kids they will change their view. They seem to be stuck in some adult arrested development phase trying to please snotty 18 - 25 year old enduro bros. Vs the 90% of the MTB community who doesn't give a crap about pinkbike.
  • 6 7
 @jdejace: Thanks for that. I started off thinking he was an attention-seeking fanny, but - while that may not be entirely untrue - I've come round a bit and understand why he's reacted like that to Henry being an attention-seeking fanny.
  • 37 0
 @birdsandtrees: @birdsandtrees: "No one even cared until that video came out." Could not be more true.

If you go back and look at the comments for the podcast, they are all from the last few days of September or two days ago. Now there are so many "long time listeners who are disappointed." Well, where were they a month ago when the podcast came out?

Also, the loam ranger basically says the only benefit he sees in people uploading videos that aren't remy is for trail recon and "if it will make a good thumbnail". He wouldn't care about these videos if it wasn't beneficial to his job.

Anyways, were the comments the best from PB, no, but this is absolutely blown way out of proportion by somebody who took over a month to make a response video.
  • 9 17
flag BiNARYBiKE FL (Nov 9, 2023 at 7:26) (Below Threshold)
 @luckynugget: those YouTubers are selling more bikes for a lot of brands than pro race teams and “professional” riders. I don’t personally spend time on any of their channels, but they’re major players in the industry at this point like it or not.
  • 55 2
 Here’s a revolutionary take. Someone says something you find offensive or don’t agree with…just take it and move on. Its just someone’s opinion and trying to cause a massive fuss all the time to try and cancel someone does no one any good.
#socialmediawillendhumanity Wink
  • 1 0
 @luckynugget: I can clearly remember that this conversation between Kazimer and Quinney was originally part of the PB podcast, but I can't remember which episode.
  • 7 2
 @Muscovir: for all the GoPro Wannabees :
"GoHome, you're not a hero"
  • 31 1
 @Monkeyass: I agree, but did you just violate your own "take" by sharing a contrary opinion to something you didn't like in a social media context? Wink

I don't think sharing an opinion is the issue, rather as you said, "the massive fuss." The Loam Ranger took a molehill and made it into a mountain, knowing it would get a bunch of people fired up and generate a lot of fuss. A good natured contrary opinion would have been great but a long, solemn video with a bunch of hand-wringing and the title "I have a big problem with pinkbike" to me was excessive. Made him seem reactionary and petty.
  • 25 1
 @Monkeyass:

Totally. 100% pointless drama over nothing that actually matters. Just ride your bikes and have fun. Even the drama itself seems a bit disingenuous in that internet drama drives engagement and is a net positive for 'influencers'. Even if it's not necessarily in bad faith, the incentive still exists to take things out of context, act hyperbolic, or make something out of nothing.

Let's get our collective focus back on what actually matters: hating on ebikes Wink
  • 6 2
 @jdejace: wow, that guy is a bell end!
  • 5 0
 @shlotch: dang coulda played it safe and said cable tourism.
  • 6 2
 It is a bit annoying when you go on youtube and you want a POV of a particular trail and then you have to skip through 3 or 4 videos before you find one of good quality. Everyone is free to upload what they want of course but maybe some people could try a bit harder before they upload.
  • 6 6
 Just ride your bikes and get real jobs, we don't need your stinking videos of white line, A line, or panty line! Boomer out.
  • 2 0
 @BiNARYBiKE: indeed! Was an attempt at the informal internet ironical comment (iiic)
  • 1 1
 @shlotch: and headset cable routing. For it must die!!!
  • 4 2
 @jdejace: what an a*shole
  • 26 4
 @sspiff: "Adults calling themselves "creators" for posting shit videos with no purpose besides cheap clickbait entertainment don't deserve much respect, IMO." Exactly, this x1000. I also scrolled through that guy's channel and he has a ton of videos where he's sticking his camera in his kids' faces to generate clicks and views. I despise vloggers who use their kids in their videos when they're far to young to consent to being on the internet. If I had hundreds of thousands of views on videos my parents posted of me as a child I would be mortified
  • 27 5
 This whole thing is some manufactured outrage on the influencers part. It’s just clickbait to generate views for the loam ranger. If you read the comments on YouTube it’s just his fans patting him on the back. No one was hurt here.
  • 4 0
 @chrisclifford: I mean, how else are they going to drive traffice to their Only Fans page? lol
  • 4 0
 @blinglespeed: his fans, and every other MTB YouTuber.
  • 5 0
 @mca896: well, except for the countless times I clicked on a biking vid only to close out a few minutes later because it was just bumbling. Might be nice if people had more humility and self awareness
  • 11 1
 @Muscovir: This. These influencers are out here acting like they're doing God's work when all they're doing is reviewing mountain bike products sent to them for free while pushing their affiliate links.
  • 13 0
 @Muscovir: My take on what Kaz said was that: it's fine that non-pro riders film their average rides, just don't upload it to youtube. Granted this is paraphrased for conciseness but that is a pretty literal paraphrasing. LW blew it out of proportion (maybe on purpose) and was acting all butt hurt. But I totally disagree with Kazimer's opinion on this...

There's a lot of sentiment I can get behind: self-absorbed Influencers and Creators are the internet's hoors. And self promoting egoists without any perspective on their own abilities are just cringe.

But the sentiment that my neighbor next door (or I) shouldn't post gopro vids of their first trip to a bike park just because it further clogs your youtube search is petty, selfish, and assumes the point to youtube's existence is just to showcase the best of the best. It's not. There is plenty of home-made cringe, steaming shit, and just normal people saying "Hey I did a thing" on youtube because that is the whole point of YT. But even this makes the few standout athletes shine even more (imho) in perspective. Sometimes it's also fine to get a non-pro perspective on the difficulty level of a new trail at a park or what-not since there is a whole continuum of ability between just bumbling and truly sending it. If I judged the rideability of every trail by watching Brage, Remy or Yoann blasting down it on YT, I would probably wind up just staying home, since it gives an unrealistic (but jaw dropping) perspective for the other 95% of us.

Besides, if the gapers and newbs aren't out goproing their rides for youtube, where else are we going to get new material for friday fails?
  • 4 4
 @birdsandtrees: Well I fall on the side of YouTubers here. Watching pro riders shred is great but pretty unrelatable to my level. I also do look up trails I want to go to see if there worth it for me to ride. Plus if you don't like it don't watch it
  • 2 1
 @bocomtb: I think what's funny about their pet pieces is pinkbikes most successful video series Friday fails relies on people bumbling down trails, crashing, and uploading it to the internet
  • 1 0
 @Alexanz1: You've been on pinkbike right. They do the same things
  • 1 1
 @st-lupo: Friday Fails..... you just pointed out the vey best argument for the average rider to post YouTube videos! Kudos. lol
  • 5 0
 @rrolly: disagree. I've interacted with him in person and he's a total prick.
  • 20 2
 @birdsandtrees: I just laugh at LOAMRANGER being a drama queen about it, in mental distress and not being able to sleep about it like it he had the most traumatic nerve wrecking harrowing PTSD inducing experience of his life. LMAO.
  • 2 0
 @mrmm8900: Come on - it's all about attention and clicks and view time - and people crave emotions. It was just an intelligent move to hop onto that bandwagon. Don't take him too literal. Imho he's got a point though. But I'm pretty confident he's way to professional to really be p*ssed off.
  • 2 0
 @briain: except that is worth watching and therefore posting. It doesn’t speak to the countless vids of slowly bumbling down a trail, which are boring to everyone
  • 4 1
 @VelkePivo: who gets to decide what's worth while? If you don't like it don't watch it. If no one watched those vids people would probably stop posting them
  • 5 1
 @Muscovir: Totally valid point, but the exact opposite can be just as true.
While well produced pro rider edits are fun, they never inspire me in a „let’s go ride!“ way. Because the kind of riding the pros do is so far removed from mine that it might as well be a different sport. Impressive but irrelevant on a personal level.

Watching average riders ride interesting trails on the other hand is very inspiring. In the sense that I could go there and ride those trails and have just as much fun. The „let’s go ride“ factor is much higher!
  • 58 1
 Ok, haven't ridden one, but on paper and in pictures it ticks aaaall the boxes (except max seat post insertion) and looks amazing. Congrats on creating something the bigger brands don't
  • 1 0
 What is max on a large, didn’t see it in the article.
  • 7 0
 @Caddz:
Seatpost max insert S 220 mm / M 245 mm / L 268 mm / XL & XXL 294 mm
raawmtb.com/pages/madonna-v3
  • 11 20
flag dresendsit (Nov 9, 2023 at 4:51) (Below Threshold)
 This ticked all the boxes until I saw the stack height. Like holy crap that is an extremely high stack. I’m not saying it’s bad but I’d need to try before buying. I’m afraid the 480 reach paired with that stack would feel like absolute massive sled of a bike.
  • 17 1
 @dresendsit: Look at the wheelbase to find out which size would be yours. Measure reach at a lower stack and you will find out it's a lot longer there. As long as you are not riding a flatbar on your current bike, you could well accomodate like 15 to 25mm more stack without any disadvantage.
  • 7 0
 @Uuno: That's a real pitty. It lacks at least 30mm of insertion depth. I own a Madonna V2 which has a seattube made of several parts with the tube holding the seatpost being open at the bottom. Too bad they changed to a single hydroformed piece for V2.2 already.
  • 8 1
 @Caddz: you don't really need the spec look at that kinked seat tube.

Nicolai make a similar product with a straight tube. And actually manufacture it in Germany if you care about such things.
  • 6 0
 @mtb-daniel: I think this would suit me, I could size down without having to run 50mm rise bars at the top of the stack
  • 5 5
 @dresendsit: the stack should make it feel smaller not bigger. It brings your hands closer
  • 2 0
 @cycleskiclimb: only above and beyond the head tube. On the frame that increased stack is already accounted for in the reach measurement, correct?
  • 2 0
 @dresendsit: flat bars on a tall front end would likely put you where a shorter stack bike on risers would.
  • 8 1
 @cycleskiclimb: If you've got two bikes with the same reach but one has more stack height than the other, the bike with higher stack is the bike with longer front-center.

Reach is measured and given at stack height (top of headtube). But you can always measure (or calculate) a reach number at your desired stack e.g. to compare frames.

A 64° head angle approx. means: Decreasing stack by 2 increases reach by 1.
  • 2 3
 True but the one thing it IS missing is internal headset cable routing the it will be perfect.
  • 1 0
 @dresendsit: meanwhile all of the most recent field tests had all of the comments filled with people talking about too-low of stack heights on most bikes.

I'll agree that too tall is worse than too low for most riders. Brake levers slammed into top tubes does happen with high-stack frames and slammed stem cockpits. Thankfully zero-rise bars do exist if you need 20-30mm less stack height.
  • 1 0
 @mtb-daniel: longer front center yes, but the distance from saddle to bars will be shorter. It's just a triangle, made up of the horizontal and vertical components of saddle-to-bar distance. Increasing stack is the same as reducing the drop, or shortening a side of the triangle. If one side stays the same (horizontal=reach+setback) and the other gets shorter, the total distance (hypotenuse) will be less.
  • 1 0
 @BiNARYBiKE: reach is horizontal, stack is vertical. Assuming your saddle is higher than your bars (i.e. you have drop from your saddle to bars), any increase in stack reduces the distance from saddle to bars
  • 1 0
 @cycleskiclimb: ya I know but when you’re looking at the bike’s specs and saying it has a really high stack height, that stack height is already factored into the published reach measurement. Further changes to the reach depend on your steer tube, stem, and bars but that’s all altered after the fact.
  • 1 0
 @cycleskiclimb: I understand that but: It depends which stem and bar you mount. You e.g. could easily swap your 25mm riser for a flatbar.
  • 54 2
 External cable routing, this is the way.
  • 5 0
 Came here to say this too. Bike looks great and practical
  • 5 1
 This is the way
  • 10 1
 Yep-bike industry people reading this…..THIS is what your core market wants. Ease of service!!!!
  • 5 0
 Got one, and one of the selling points was the external cable routing. Also the weight specific shock length and rocker length/leverage ratio was a big deal as well. Being 230lbs, I was running so much air on my previous enduro bike, just to get it to no have 35% sag. But then, with that much air the small bump sensitivity definitely suffered.
  • 6 15
flag giustino (Nov 9, 2023 at 8:43) (Below Threshold)
 oh come on.. how many times per year do you have to pull the cables out from the frame because you need to swap brakes.. i don't want external cables!
  • 2 0
 Nah
  • 3 1
 @giustino: then get a propain and shove them down the headset
  • 3 1
 @giustino: maybe once every other year on average. Regardless of how infrequent, it's nice to have an easy job of it when the time comes. I'm sure it would be appreciated when doing an unplanned swap while traveling or on a race weekend as well. Internal cables tend to rattle around on most frames too.

Don't worry, if you want a sleek road bike look, there are many, many options for you. Chances are you would be shopping for carbon anyway.
  • 3 1
 @giustino: Agree! Unless you're swapping brakes you don't need ever to remove the hoses. Gear outer lasts 2-4 years and unless you're an inexperienced mechanic, swapping it out is easy. These aren't time trial road bikes!
  • 4 0
 @wyorider: as a longtime industry person who's no longer in the industry, what the core market wants and what paid my salary are two very different things.
  • 2 1
 @giustino: well said
  • 21 0
 This could well be my next bike. Everything just makes sense
  • 19 1
 Love to see real stack height! Maybe it comes from growing up on dirtbikes, but my bike has always felt better the higher I could get the bars.
  • 4 0
 Amen! The 677 stack / 145mm HT on their XL and XXL sizes is about as tall as you can make it with standard fork steerer tube lengths. Even their size L would support an uncut steerer tube with a reasonable amount of spacers.
  • 2 0
 @Marcencinitas: as someone who's 6'7, this is my biggest gripe with XXL bikes. Santa Cruz makes a pretty tall stack for their XXL, but the reach at 530 sounds better to me than the 520ish on the SC bikes. that plus longer chainstays make this a winner for bigger guys IMO
  • 4 0
 @whiteranger3: Bang on. Santa Cruz XXLs are for 6'4" guys who want a longer bike than an XL. They're not really for tall guys, they're for Peaty and Minnaar who look tall compared to the rest of the world cup racers but aren't tall in the scheme of things.

The 677mm stack isn't far off of what I spec'd on my custom full suspension and I'm 2" taller than you.
  • 2 0
 @GTscoob: does your custom FS happen to be a Reeb?
  • 2 0
 @whiteranger3: yep, couple years old at this point but it's the biggest MTB I've ever seen and ridden.
  • 1 0
 @whiteranger3: 6’6 here. What are you guys riding? This is definitely on my shortlist for my next whip. 510 reach on my current bike.
  • 1 1
 @danielomeara: I'm 6'5" and running around 480 on my Enduro bike and 508 on my DH rig, both mullet. Wouldn't go any longer on my Enduro bike, I've tried longer but found them mostly unrideable.
  • 1 0
 @danielomeara: 6'7 on an XXL megatower V2. Was on an XXL sentinel V2 before that, and have ridden a buddy's XXL spire. Both the transitions have too low of a front end for me, but i do like the 535 reach on the spire compared to 521 on the megatower. Megatower overall is the best fitting bike I've ridden (with a 50mm stem), but I would be keen to try out this madonna v3 given the higher stack, longer reach, and longer chainstays.
  • 1 0
 @Freakyjon: that's interesting, do you not feel too far over the front of the bike? there's a noticeable difference between my XXL megatower v2 at 521 reach and my XL pole taival hardtail at 535 reach, the taival feels more natural
  • 2 0
 @whiteranger3: the difference is bigger than you think between those two bikes. At sag the reach shortens (rear end sags a bit more) on the FS while the hardtail gets longer.

Nicolai has what you need. They'll build anything you want for a custom fee but even without that the normal sizing on the Saturn 16 runs up to a 570mm reach and 690mm stack (XXXL).
  • 1 0
 @jdejace: yea i was thinking about that after i wrote that. after riding a buddy's xxl spire with 535, i think the raww would be a good candidate for something "off the shelf" rather than custom. the saturn 16 does look sweet though
  • 2 0
 @whiteranger3: they often have them in stock/off the shelf I believe, if the Nicolai otherwise appeals. XXL with 555 reach is listed as in stock, as is XL (535mm)

www.bike-components.de/en/Nicolai/Saturn-16-29-Frame-p87984/?v=128518-factory-raw
  • 2 0
 @whiteranger3: never found it an issue. I find any longer in reach and I lose control, especially in tight steep tech. Basically find it hard to move the bike around if the reach is too long.
  • 2 0
 @Freakyjon: such an annoying compromise… if you get a bike that properly fits it often doesn’t fit the trails.
  • 2 0
 @jdejace: I maintain a (ludicrously) extensive spreadsheet of geometry for a good number of enduro bikes for exactly these comparos. Nicolai's mutators would make it a bit tough normally, but the Saturn 16 as delivered is already it's lowest config and the mutators only move it further from the Madonna geo, so the detailed comparison is fairly easy. I'm comparing the Small Saturn 16 29" in 160mm config to the Med Madonna 29".

They look extremely close especially now that Raaw lengthened the CS by 5mm, BUT Nicolai's published figures are with a 150mm fork. Swap a 170mm and things gets funky even with the 160mm rear. Saturn will be a degree slacker up front, but about the same ST angle. The Saturn has 10mm more reach and that is as short as it gets so smaller riders are SOL, and that 10mm pretty much disappears with the longer fork, as does almost all of the stack diff. Saturn looks like the BB height is within a scant 3mm, but that's with a 150mm fork. Once you put a 170mm fork on the Saturn will be closer to a tall -20mm of drop vs the Madonna's -35mm, which is a big reason people rave about the Madonna's cornering. BB height is a dealbreaker for me on the Saturn.

The Nicolai saves 0.65kg, has a shorter seattube and full length insertion. Plus it's a Nicolai - handmade in Germany and f*cking gorgeous. I'd buy one in a second were it not for the BB height. I'd buy a G1 if it had a vertical shock and less extreme head angle (and the Saturn tubeset for a nice drop in weight). And I'd buy a Madonna if it has a shorter seattube and full insertion. As it is, I still have no reason to get rid of my Specialized Enduro (S3), but fuuuuck, I'd love to trade it in for one of these aluminum masterpieces.
  • 2 0
 @ohio: horses for courses as they say. I personally don't enjoy riding ~340mm BB height enduros, even with 165mm cranks (and I prefer 170s so I'm not going shorter). In fact I have a reversed offset bushing on my enduro bike specifically to raise the BB into the ~345-350mm range. I've never noticed any difference except fewer pedal strikes. Maybe a better and/or more discerning rider than me could. Aston seems to like his 0mm drop bikes though.

Nicolai's custom fee is ~$750. If you get really psyched to own one I bet they would be able to get the BB where you like.
  • 1 0
 @jdejace: thanks for that. didn't realize their "stock" XXL was so big, that's good to know. still only 150 travel though, i'd like something a tad bigger for the stuff i ride
  • 2 0
 @whiteranger3: the frame/linkage has ~160mm travel in it with a 65mm shock, that's what they suggest on a mullet. If you're psyched on the bike otherwise I'd ask Nic if the 453mm chainstays on the XXL will clear a 29in wheel at 160mm. It sometimes doesn't take much eg the recently reviewed Reeb Steezl can go up to 162mm with the 444mm chainstays but not the 434mm which can only clear 155mm (the stock shock stroke).

There's always the G1 :-)
  • 1 0
 @jdejace: yea definitely would implore with Nicolai to see if i could run 160mm with a 29" wheel.

G1 is intriguing but would have to go with a custom frame, as the stack height on the G1 isn't that high like the Nicolai is
  • 1 0
 @whiteranger3: the tech sheet for the G1 specs a 567 A2C for the 649mm stack on the XXL, so it'd be a bit taller with a 170mm fork. I'd also personally run a reversed angle headset to bring the head angle to some sane place like 63⁰ which would also raise it.
  • 17 0
 Simple, beautiful and hopefully sturdy The idea of an enduro bike, made real
  • 16 0
 FYI the v2.2 is also an excellent bike and is 30% off right now after the release of the V3.
  • 3 1
 I’m riding a V2 from the first batch in 2020. If I didn’t already own that I’d be buying one if these. New features are pretty subtle but it all looks like improvements (other than the worse seattube insertion).
  • 1 0
 @gafotes: I’m in a v2.2 I got in spring 2022. Absolutely love it. The V3 updates are exactly what they should have done, but not quite different enough to buy a new frame. Which Raaw knew, and is why they are selling retrofit kits and I bought one today.
  • 1 0
 …aaaaand they’re sold out. Thanks for getting my hopes up!

Now to lie in wait for upgrading V2 owners to post their frames on the Buy and Sell.
  • 1 0
 @sfarnum: Hmm.. want a medium V2.2 in February when I get a V3...?
  • 1 0
 @pisgahgnar: That would be my size…plz DM in February.
  • 16 0
 Finally stack numbers I love
  • 1 1
 I would like them to go even higher!
  • 13 1
 Thank you RAAW also for the cable routing that experienced bikers may prefer.

And of course, no thank you to all the intermediate bikers and skiers of the planet for thinking your $hit footage is suitable for anyone other than your great aunt.
  • 13 0
 For all the bitching I do about short stack height on here, every once and a while you get a properly done XL/XXL bike. It’s beautiful.
  • 2 1
 One bike that changed my look on stack and that was the Merida one-sixty - that bike is seriously good but has headset routing Frown
  • 1 0
 Strong agree.
  • 12 0
 If only this made it into the field test with the ibis hd6 and trek slash. Hopefully @mikekazimer can speak on that on the pod.
  • 8 0
 We all know there is no such thing as a forever bike… But the level of adjustability and serviceability built into this one is truly worth mentioning. It’s a classic suspension layout that we all know works extremely well, in a no-nonsense package.
  • 3 0
 For sure. I ride a v2 and would have no intention of replacing it any time soon if there wasn't a v3 out now (and I'm even a bit on the fence with that). Seasons come and go and I see nothing else that ever makes me want to move on from the Madonna. It gets a few new parts every year and just remains a phenomenal, reliable bike.
  • 10 0
 in a world of ugly plastic bullshit.. this bike is BEAUTIFUL! but, I need mini mullet.......
  • 2 0
 This!!
  • 6 1
 Feels like this bike could've won the Pinkbike Enduro Field Test. Sensible frame build. Very high stack. Size specific chainstay lengths. Plenty of sensible tinker options (stroke, progression, rider weight specific leverage curves). Solid pricing.
  • 7 1
 It looks so much like a v1 transition sentinel with a cascade link, just a little longer and much more adjustable. Good job Raaw
  • 2 0
 Ha that’s exactly what I have and this is one of the very few things that might tempt me off it. Stunning looking frame.
  • 3 7
flag dresendsit (Nov 9, 2023 at 4:54) (Below Threshold)
 Stack height is to the moon. That alone will make this feel much different than any transition. Plus a 64 HTA is what transition used like 5 years ago.
  • 6 0
 @dresendsit: that’s a fair point about stack. 664 vs 626. That said, it might be perfect as I run a 170mm fork, about 25mm in spacers, and riser bars, so it’ll be pretty comparable.

As to the hta is what transition used 5 years ago… yes. That’s what we meant by v1 sentinel. The one from 5 years ago.
  • 5 0
 @dresendsit:
I have the v2.2, same stack height and a I have some 15mm spacers + 38mm rise bar. I tried removing even a 5mm spacer to see how it felt and it felt too low

I think that long chain stays and the steeper head angle allow you to run much more stack while still allowing you to weight the front wheel - I have no issues whatsoever with front wheel washouts, unlike with my last bike
  • 4 0
 I love the no-frills approach that companies like Raaw and Privateer are taking, building these aluminum bikes with a focus on durability and easy service (in addition of course to just riding great). Kinda makes me wish I was in the market for an enduro bike because I'd snap one of these up in a heartbeat if I didn't already have (and love) a Privateer 161.
  • 8 1
 Riding raaw is the best way to ride.
  • 3 0
 Regarding DC forks - that's an interesting development. I was asking RAAW if I could run a DC fork on my V2.2 Madonna, they said 'no', and in fact the FAQ section states: "we don’t recommend running a dual crown fork on the Madonna and Jibb frames, as it will void the warranty." There's no update there for the V3.0. The cable/bumper mount hole indeed has been moved.
  • 2 0
 I think V3 allowed DC up to 180mm according to the German media outlet mtb-news.de
  • 9 1
 If you took a moment to review the V3 page on Raaw's website you would see an entire section on this:

"DUAL CROWN FORK COMPATIBILITY
Although a 170 mm single crown fork is our first choice for the Madonna, we’ve now added dual crown forks into the equation. The Madonna V3 fits the fork bumpers from the Yalla! to absorb impacts from the fork stanchions on the frame. The maximum axle-to-crown measurement of 598 mm should not be exceeded, but this translates to a 180 mm travel fork and we believe this to be the best fit when it comes to DC forks and the Madonna V3."
  • 2 0
 @pisgahgnar: I was refering to the FAQ section, but yeah, I've read the description and watched the vid. If only there were light(-ich) DC forks in the market, but thumbs up for RAAW to allow even more options
  • 1 0
 Weird. I have an email from Ruben saying I can run one on the V2 as long as I use appropriate fork bumpers. Maybe something changed between models?
  • 6 2
 Everything about this bike screams BUY ME apart from one thing- the not straight seat tube. The insertion depth looks decent, but I want to be able to slam my seat all the way down.
  • 12 0
 In the test on enduro-mtb they said that a 210mm Oneup can be inserted completely in an L frame. Sounds fine to me
  • 2 0
 @qbensis: That's weird, because the 210 is 297 from actuator to collar, and it says the L only has 268 insertion depth - where's the other 30 going?
  • 2 0
 @scotteh: yup the maths don't check out.
  • 7 0
 @scotteh: up ye bum mate Big Grin
  • 2 0
 @jdejace: I'm running a ripmo AF Large with a one up 200mm dropper and that frame lists max insertion at 250, although the seat tube is 12mm shorter, so that seems like it would be about equal. I also don't have my post inserted all the way, meaning at 6' I should be able to run about a 220. Does someone need longer? Is my math off?
  • 2 0
 @jesse-effing-edwards: yeah, that probably won't work. The 220mm OneUp is the 240mm with the little shortening rods (like your 200mm is a shortened 210mm). The collar to actuator measurement of the 240mm is 40mm longer than the 210mm (337mm vs 297mm). You'd need substantially more insertion depth.
  • 1 0
 @qbensis: 210mm does indeed sound like enough, but I would need a small or medium. Probably the insertion depth wouldn't end up being so insanely shallow on the small and medium sizes to be the dealbreaker I called it, but I do like as much standover clearance as possible, both over the top tube and over the saddle.
  • 1 0
 @jdejace: I think you're right
  • 1 0
 @scotteh:

Maybe the numbers are conservative? Or it's sometimes the case that the total insert length of the dropper includes the length of the actuator, which can go a bit deeper than the rest of the post depending on the shape of the seat tube.

Fwiw, I have a v2 medium which claims a max insert of 245mm. Yet I can completely bury a 180mm OneUp which has a 267mm measured insert length. But that's also a slightly different seat post design so I'm not sure it's a completely relevant comparison.

Either way, it's probably based to take their numbers at face value and then maybe be pleasantly surprised when it works out better than planned.
  • 4 1
 Damn, i really hoped that they could come out with a M/L size. At 179cm and shirt legs im just between sizes.
I want the TT of the L and seattube from the M, and a reach of 470. So if i go M it will be too small and if i go L it will be too large.....
This has been my dream bike for long now but i looks like i have to wait for V4.
  • 2 1
 Same for me and I’m the same size as you.
Only difference is that I want the TT of the M and a 470 reach (coming from a privateer 161 )
  • 2 1
 I am in the same boat. M is too small, L is too big. As you say, maybe next time
  • 2 0
 Same. Right in between a large and XL.
  • 1 0
 Looks like it could take a reach adjust headset, but that might only reduce it by 5-6mm. I'm with you though, 480mm reach is just a bit long for my taste. I've noticed lots of bikes the last few years put me right between M and L sizes. I am most comfortable on anything around 465-475mm and ETT of 605-620mm, but going bigger than that hurts my dodgy lower back.
  • 1 3
 This I’m 170cm tall but my legs are 67cm so I need large for reach but medium for my short legs
  • 7 0
 @Twr: did you take into account the high stack ? For example if your current bike has 20mm of spacers under the stem, the Madonna maybe won't need them and you don't "lose" 8-10mm reach, and the M could work.
Or the L with a low stack dropper slammed, unless your legs are extra short
  • 3 0
 @Uuno:
Didn't think about the stack, that might actually work. I have 469mm reach and 25mm lower stack on my bike with a 40mm stem. The wheelbase is also the same on a M.
So slamming the stem and increase it to 50mm and go with a M could be the solution. I need that 420 seattube anyways.
  • 1 0
 177cm with short legs long arms (186cm wingspan). On a size L with 35mm stem, 50mm riser bar, 155 cranks, 180 OneUp dropper. Done the math and a 195 (shimmed) WolfTooth dropper will fit, just not a huge priority.

Sticking with 2.2, going to buy UDH seatstay and let her rip.
  • 1 0
 I'm always in between sizes, I'm 187cm and always go for he smaller one because it's more fun!
  • 4 1
 This bike, the aluminum version of the Stumpy EVO, and the Ripmo AF are what anyone who rides bigger terrain needs.

Sturdy frame, good bearings (and bearing alignment), simple cable routing and dialed suspension. Any bike in this travel bracket will be north of 30 pounds due to beefier parts (wheels, suspension, tires/inserts) so might as well have a frame that adds a little more weight-and peace of mind.
  • 9 14
flag justinfoil (Nov 9, 2023 at 7:55) (Below Threshold)
 Why would an alloy frame bring you more piece of mind? Do you realize how thin those tube walls are? My carbon Stumpy has taken airborne rock strikes to the downtube that would have crumpled an aluminum tube. And I've seen holes punched in alloy frames, along with creased alloy downtubes and toptubes.

Have you seen the impact testing Santa Cruz, for example, puts their carbon frames through? Especially that classic video with the ad-hoc "smash it against a concrete block" test... and that was 15 year old CFRP tech, new stuff is even tougher. Carbon is not nearly as fragile as you think, and alloy is not nearly is tough as you think.
  • 3 0
 @justinfoil: had 2 carbon Giant Reigns. Giant warrantied the first one, second one I kicked up a rock and it hit the rubber BB protector shattering the carbon under it. That was just a normal flicked rock on a blue trail. And didn’t get warrantied.

Carbon Stumpys have thicker walls and take hits better, but they’re not a whole lot lighter than an aluminum frame. Early versions of the current molds for the Stumpy EVO were lighter, broke and were usually warrantied so Specialized upped the wall thickness.

When you factor in that a bike in this travel bracket will be heavy anyway, why not save the cash??

As for wall thickness-I chose the other 2 metal frames for a reason. Tube walls are thicccccc
  • 3 8
flag HeatedRotor FL (Nov 9, 2023 at 8:49) (Below Threshold)
 @justinfoil: absolutely. combine that with how out of alignment most alloy frames are.... the carbon versions are pretty much worth it in every way.
  • 1 2
 @wyorider: "That was just a normal flicked rock on a blue trail."

What is a "normal flicked rock"? I've had 3-pound baseball size ones flicked up and them slammed into them going 30 kph. Would have put a significant dent in many alloy frames. The rock had nothing to do with the difficulty of the trail, probably worse on a blue because I'd likely be going faster.

"take hits better, but they’re not a whole lot lighter than an aluminum frame"

Better than what? Cheap carbon? Average alloy? Both in my experience. In which case, being significantly lighter or not is moot: it's stronger/stiffer (in the right places) and as durable if not more durable: that's what I'd pay for. Anyone thinking carbon stuff is only about saving weight is doing it wrong and stuck in the 90s.

Go throw rocks at your Ripmo AF, see how thicc those tubes really are...
  • 1 0
 @justinfoil: if it was an XC bike I might give it a pass, but an enduro bike that can’t take a rock (and it was somewhere between a golf ball and a tennis ball) on the rubber pad that’s supposed to prevent failures…..nope!!!

That’s a normal impact. And my thicccccc walled Ripmo AF has taken similar hits….with nothing more than paint scuffs
  • 3 0
 @HeatedRotor: alignment has to do with quality of construction, not material. Worst high end out of alignment frames I saw were 1st and 2nd generation OCLV road bikes (4 digit models 5200, 5500 etc.). My wife at the time was on a regional Trek team and she got one that was over 8mm out from bottom bracket to dropouts. I saw several more that either came out of Waterloo that way or warped over time.

Cheap or poorly built bikes aren’t straight, regardless of material. Well built bikes are dead straight regardless of material. And a well engineered frame built on a best quality assembly line is always straight these days.

The frames that have the most alignment issues are direct order brands that use lower quality assembly (even on carbon) to keep their prices down.
  • 1 1
 @wyorider: scuffs? Then they obviously weren't as big of hits. If the paint didn't get damaged, of course the material underneath wouldn't be damaged.
  • 3 0
 I had the V 2.2, it was one hell of a bike, soo fun to ride when you had the terrain for it, a bit much for mellow stuff but still ok, doesn't feel as heavy and big as it actually is. The stack height was soo good, rear cable routing was kinda bad but fixed on v3 it looks like. Little creak from main bearing but I didn't care, it was such a blast to ride so I just rode it. And if you're concerned about climbing, don't be, as long as you see it for what kind of bike this is, it's super comfortable on the climbs, quite effective as well for 160mm of travel, I was impressed. If I had larger mountains and closer to bike parks I would have kept it. A bit expensive yes, but if you got the money and the mountains you won't be disappointed.
  • 11 6
 Looks perfect. Love how the external routing would make it so fast to throw the Shimano brakes in the bin.
  • 6 1
 Bikes like this make me wish I rode hard enough to need one! Such a beauty.
  • 3 0
 doesnt make the old bike obsolete, but improves all points of criticism. instead of making it high pivot. for me a little too big and long, but i stick with the v2.2, i'm very happy
  • 2 0
 as someone who's had two tranistion sentinels, a patrol, a commencal supreme and now a madonna raaw 2.2 in the last 4-5 years...these bikes are amazing. sold supreme. this is my 2025 bike since i got my 2.2 in april. truly amazing bikes.
  • 4 0
 It's got a wart on the seat stay - would not bang*

*who am I kidding, absolutely would.
  • 7 1
 I want one.
  • 6 2
 650mm stack on the medium, 677 on the XL! Better get High Stack Dak on the phone, I think we found his trail bike.
  • 5 0
 Seems like a simple, practical bike. Looks good too
  • 2 0
 Converting the price to Canadian dollars, this bike is insanely expensive. 5000£ exchanges to $8500CAD. For $7500CAD you can buy a complete WeAreOne Arrival, with carbon frame, wheels and bars. What am I missing?
  • 4 0
 Check the website and choose CAD from the bottom of the page. Rolling chassis (everything except brakes and drivetrain) is $6247 CAD. Their prices in different countries are not direct conversions, you also don't pay VAT.
  • 1 0
 @pisgahgnar: I had never seen "rolling chassis" used in the context of bicycles before so thanks for the explanation.

"Everything but the ...motor? Huh?"
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer Stupid question, but you're pretty much the same size as me (179cm). I was wondering if the M would be a better fit than the L for me. Yes, 455 Reach sounds very short by todays standards (I'm usually on 470s - but with below 600 TTs that I like very much (Privateer 161, Merida one-sixty)), but the high stack of the Madonna decreases the reach measurement, right?
So, if I'm riding a 470 reach bike right now with almost 2cm less stack, reach will - given that the handle bar is mounted in the same hight on both bikes, around one centimeter longer, right? Which means that, compared to my current 470 bike, the M would feel like 465, but the L like 490, correct?

Ahhh .. it's so confusing to me ...
  • 2 1
 I think you're right but something like bike insights will really help you visualize the difference. bikeinsights.com The Modonna V3 isn't added yet but you could do it!
  • 4 1
 @qbensis, I'd think of it as two separate measurements - reach will determine how far away the bars are from you when you're standing up out of the saddle, and stack is how high those handlebars are.

This bike in a size L is longer than what you currently have, but you might find that the more upright position created by the tall front end makes it feel more manageable. As an experiment, you could install some bars one your bike with 20mm more rise than what you currently have, just to see what that part of the equation feels like.
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer: thanx. It’s still confusing to me, as I think that stack height won’t affect my handlebar height? Just the amount of spacers below it (and possibly the rise). So, I think, that my handlebar would stay on the same height, no matter if Madonna or one-sixty.
But that the high stack of the Madonna will affect the reach measurement, which is not affected by spacers ? Which means that, given the same handle bar height, the feeling I get standing up will be comparable between the two bikes, despite the difference in reach?
  • 1 0
 Can you run a 65mm stroke shock on the Rocker 60 like you could with the Madonna V2/2.2?

Previously they said you could totally run a 65mm stroke shock on the rocker 60 link (the one designed for 60mm stroke shock), and it would leave you with 171mm of rear travel. That was my plan if I ever got one (and, its been taunting me for years), and curious if thats still an option.

Love the updates (evolution not revolution), aesthetic, and ethos on display here.
  • 1 0
 The review on enduro-mtb website says the reach is adjustable..

“With the headset cups, you can also shorten or lengthen the reach by 5 mm, and steepen or slacken the head angle by 1°”

Haven’t seen this mentioned elsewhere so I’m not sure if it’s true… anybody know?
  • 1 1
 I think that might be a mistake on the enduro-mtb site. They seem to be conflating the Yalla's headset cup adjustments with the Madonna v3 - and the Yalla's adjustment relies on the 1-1/8" diameter of a dual-crown fork's steerer tube. The diameter of the Madonna's head tube is still just big enough for the normal ZS56 headset cup at the bottom to fit your normal 1-1/2" tapered steerer tube fork nice and snug. Just doesn't have the room to move a steerer tube fore and aft, if that makes sense.

Or at least that's what makes sense to me. Which means it's probably 1000% wrong :/ .
  • 2 1
 @shlotch: You can use reach adjust headset on this just like the Yalla. You can pretty much do it on any bike with ZS56 or larger cups.
  • 1 0
 Deleted
  • 1 0
 the price for their bikes seems pretty steep? I just compared to Knolly's bikes price, both are good alum bike makers, for frame only option, Raaw is about $1000 higher than Knolly, I am comparing it to their latest Endorphin model, so there is no discount was included, and Knolly was never known as a "cheap" brand either. Anyone knows what going on here? I understand Raaw is a smaller brand at this point, but $1000 difference is not considered small in this case.
  • 2 0
 I have both and the Yalla feels a bit more special, with the beautifully routed external cables, the large bearings, the adjustability. But the Knolly is a beautiful bike, too, with incredible welds for one thing. I suppose I’d have to say the RAAW probably isn’t worth $1000 more as long as the configuration etc on the Knolly is exactly what you want
  • 2 0
 I have a Chilcotin and no matter how hard I tried, I just couldn't find a reason to "upgrade". Knolly bikes are just so well-built and versatile, and their sizes just fit me so well. The only interesting choice is the Atherton bikes for the custom geo if you're in-between sizes. But I've heard they feel pretty dead, say compared to an Arrival.
  • 2 0
 wow... first time I see comment section so exited about the bike instead of trashing it.

Now explain me like I am 5... why would I buy this instead of let's say Trek Slash or Spesh Enduro? Or Yeti SB160 etc
  • 1 2
 Trek Slash - seems to have had hit & miss reviews for the Gen6. Gen5 was useless for anyone over 175cm as the seat was over the back wheel. They crack.

Spesh Enduro - never ridden something which creaked so badly. Also are bearings, which there are a lot of, in a mud trap linkage. Oh, and they crack, a lot.

Yeti - Don’t even know what to say about badly built they are. Knackered SI links, frames cracking all over the place, all backed up by Yeti’s legendary terrible customer service (through their distro’s).

How’s that?
  • 2 0
 @HobNob: Interesting take. Re Yeti - I've heard the opposite re customer service - and opposite about frames cracking. I don't own a Yeti - but considering one..

In your opinion which carbon frame would you recommend then? Genuinely curious
  • 2 0
 This bike rides as well as the bikes you listed, weights about the same, and is easier to service.

If you’re putting in big miles on hard lines, a Madonna will require less frequent bearing replacements, and other services will be faster/easier to perform.

There are a lot of good big travel/enduro bikes available these days-you’d want to try before you buy anyway. Trek runs a digressive shock tune that pedals well and works great when you’re pinning it, but is less forgiving on big lines if you’re tired. RAAW prioritizes grip over pop, so not as lively but easier to ride fast when you’re blown out.
  • 3 0
 ok, thx everyone, so it is no better no worse Big Grin ( I am ignoring @HobNob rant there cuz those are BS claims Big Grin )
  • 1 1
 @valrock: Yeah, a rant, based on actual experience.

No BS here. And half an hour on various owner forums will give you a real world view, not your odd rose tinted glasses version.
  • 2 0
 @HobNob: me and my friends were Spesh fan boys for a while, so I had a few and a lot of friends had it, abused it and never had the issues you are describing. I get the point about tall people and general bikes... you guys and gals are at very big disadvantage there. But the same issues on all bikes you had... sounds to me like you are making shit up Big Grin

Yeti got amazing service, cuz their bikes are overpriced as hell, so you are paying in advance for awesome service. BTW - Trek is one of the best after-purchase support I dealt with... cracking... not sure tho... all bikes have cses of cracking, but Trek is not famous for that and they sell millions of bikes
  • 1 0
 @valrock: Yep, actual steep seat angles are a game changer for taller people. I’m not exactly a giant at 186cm but it’s way better than it used to be.

As for Yeti, first hand experiences. As I said however that’s dealing with their distro’s. I’ve never ridden something so unreliable & had such poor support. Literally fighting for warranty & waiting months for replacement parts.

I’ll caveat that & say any warranty issues I’ve ever had with big bike brands (Trek/Spesh) has been brilliant in comparison.
  • 1 0
 @HobNob: Gotcha, I guess you got unlucky with Yeti. Sometimes when I do get a bad service sort of thing, I try again because I believe there is always that human factor involved. The company might have policies and etc... but you can just get to a person that has a shitty day and that is it, your entire experience is magnitude worst than it could have been - hello to my city unfriendly bike mechanics ahahaha... it seems like you guys and gals always on your period no matter store I step my foot into Big Grin
  • 4 0
 Can see that being in vogue next holiday.
  • 3 0
 I love everything about this bike (with the exception of price but I have that complaint about everything).
  • 3 0
 I love the chainslap protector also covering the cable. Internal without the pains of actually being internal. Brilliant!
  • 1 1
 Nice and functional frame, but I think the price is a bit too high compared to other German frames. Nicolai manufactures in Germany and the ION 16 costs almost the same - the same with Kavenz. LAST manufactures in Taiwan and reworks in Germany and costs 700 euros less.
  • 1 0
 I think the price is going to be a factor for any new bike released this year and next. We are seeing 20-40% off everywhere... it would be hard sell to pay full price in this market.
  • 2 0
 Price is going to be a big issue for any new bike released this year and next. We are seeing 20-40% off right now... paying full price is a pass for me.
  • 5 3
 So good it´s raawdiculous! Ticks all the boxes and even some I didn´t know existed.
  • 3 1
 What is the 16.2kg weight of theres no complete bike options? Is there a frame weight?
  • 3 1
 3.9 kg in medium without shock. Same as the V2.2
  • 2 1
 @pisgahgnar: and 4.4kg for the XL V2.1 weighed on the lab-scale. No shock, no axle
  • 2 0
 @ESKato: it’s not a light bike by any means! My v2.2 built up with a float x2, ex511 wheelset, double down no inserts, and fairly standard parts for everything else is 38 lbs. But it rides amazing and will survive the apocalypse. The refinements on the v3 are great, but I think I’ll just buy the udh retrofit for my v2.2 to future proof it completely rather than upgrade the frame.
  • 1 0
 @pisgahgnar: Dunno why Someone downvoted my measurementBig Grin I agree it’s a solid bike and when pointed downhills it’s agile and fast. I really don’t mind the weight it’s an enduro bike after all Smile interestingly My current G1 where people always complain about weight in the tests is a solid pound lighter (frame without shock and axle). I guess that somehow shows yet another layer of the silly weight debate.
  • 1 0
 Meh-any bike in this travel bracket will be over 30 pounds (at or above 14kg). Still light enough to get to the top of a 2-3 hour climb, but not spritely on the up.

I’m much (much) more annoyed at bikes that weigh this much with waaaaay less travel. If a bike has lighter wheels and downsized suspension bits (34 forks, smaller can rear shock, lighter wheels) that should be reflected on the scale.
  • 4 1
 Can I use the "mixed wheel shock mount" for the V2.2 as well?
  • 1 0
 Don't think so as the V3 is using the same shock mount as the Yalla
  • 1 0
 No. Frown
  • 2 0
 @bikeridingaled: does that mean they're finally selling the mullet shock mount for the Yalla then?
  • 1 0
 @IsaacWislon82: yeah if the V3 M shock mount is the same as the Yalla, then I guess you could buy a mount and put it on the Yalla! I'm loving my Yalla in full 29 though so prob wont try it myself, but if you do let me know!
  • 1 0
 If the progression of the different rocker links is 'nearly identical' at 23 and 26%, What's the point of the different lower shock mounts that alter progression by 3%?
  • 1 0
 The rocker links use different shock lengths and are for different weight riders. You can then adapt the progression from the base of 23 or 26 percent using the lower mounts.
  • 1 0
 @pisgahgnar: well that's not what it says. It is talking about the two rocker links.
  • 1 0
 Regarding the wheelbase/ chainstay length dimensions in their geo chart- does anyone know what position the chainstays are measured in? "center" would make most sense, but...
  • 1 0
 I think it's the same rear just with different dropout inserts. From the article:

"The chainstay length varies depending on the size, but it's also adjustable by switching the dropout insert. That means any frame size can have 445, 450, or 455mm chainstays depending on rider preference."
  • 2 0
 To quote the site:

"All frame sizes come with the rear wheel axle in the mid position. For S and M size frames that’s 445 mm, L is 450 mm, and XL and XXL frames are 455 mm. From there, the chainstay length can be adjusted to 5 mm shorter or longer with separate rear wheel axle kits."

So each size has adjustability +/- 5mm from the 'default' position listed in the geo chart. This differs from the previous model which went 440-450 across the board.
  • 3 0
 @Bullit-Boy, The chainstays are measured in the center, and the different chips can be used to add or subtract 5mm from that number.
  • 2 0
 @shlotch: but also note that if you go with the UDH rear end you lose adjustability and it will be fixed in the mid position.
  • 3 0
 Finally, a properly sized XXL available in alloy. Tall riders rejoice!
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer, how does this bike ride on trails at Galbraith? I’m always keeping an eye out for a bike that is still fun there but can confidently ride at lookout.
  • 4 0
 I've had fun on it on Galbraith. Granted, the rougher, faster trails are where it wants to be, and it wouldn't be my pick if I only rode there and didn't frequent steeper zones, but it's still a good time.
  • 2 1
 Why would they offer both UDH and non UDH when there is no disadvantage to UDH? You can run any drivetrain you want on UDH, not just T Type wireless.
  • 2 0
 You lose chainstay adjustments with UDH, that’s the disadvantage.
  • 1 0
 @pisgahgnar: oh ok, didn't realize that. I've never really done that anyway. Just give me a bike, I'll ride it. Thanks for the info though!
  • 3 0
 FINALLY A BIKE WITH PROPER STACK FOR EACH SIZE. Way to go Raaw!
  • 1 0
 That is a nice looking bike. And looks like is should be relatively easy to maintain.No silly cable routing, even gooder! I want one!
  • 1 0
 Love videos like this where they show you the actual bike, the features and some behind the scenes mixed with some shredding.
  • 4 2
 Remind me why we can’t have 27.5 bikes? Was there something wrong with them?
  • 1 0
 I’m sure it’s been said before
But truly a beautiful frame set
Attention to detail and everything done purposeful intention
\m/
  • 3 1
 Is there none pros ans cons cause ain't no cons?
  • 2 0
 Crap no through the headset cable routing
  • 1 0
 Huh, the external bolts look like they're in the right positions for a completely bolt on frame bag.
  • 2 0
 They got the frame material and wheel size correct. Nice job RAAW!
  • 1 0
 As someone who shamelessly loves externally routed, burly, raw aluminum frames, I really really like this rig.
  • 1 0
 Call it the "Amy Taylor" or "Patti Smith" etc , it'll help me erase the pop tunes the current name has filled my head with.
  • 1 0
 I don't have the cajones or the terrain for that bad boy, how's the Jibb? Looks sweeet
  • 2 0
 Hoping for some ride reviews as mullet ..
  • 5 0
 You got it - Raaw sent me a mullet shock mount as well, so I'll be testing both setups.
  • 1 0
 I've wanted to try a Jibb. Maybe time to jump on the Madonna bandwagon.... because I love 4 bar suspension!
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer I'd LOVE to see a comparison between this and the Airdrop Edit MX ... and I heavily doubt that I'm the only on
  • 5 6
 Hope this makes Madonna a bit more playful and increases the pump response from her rear. My V2 was great but not exactly exciting.
  • 3 0
 How would it make is it more playful?
  • 6 5
 External routing- it not hard to love pragmatism when it works.
  • 2 0
 I kinda want one!!
  • 1 0
 No complaints about seatpost length? This could be a winner.
  • 1 0
 I'm getting vibes from the old Turner RFX. Looks great.
  • 1 0
 2.9k for an empty TW welded frame? Give me a break. I’ll go to Nicolai.
  • 1 0
 Wow, I want a new bike now!
  • 1 2
 Gone are the days I could just go for the biggest size being 6'5". Those reach numbers put me on a Large at most. Ridiculous.
  • 1 0
 overall weight. Did the weight improve over the previous one?
  • 3 4
 Don’t think I want to take Madonna for a ride. Oh wait, this is a bike, not the material girl.
  • 4 3
 Material Girl
  • 11 0
 I’d say “Like A Prayer”.

When I build this frame
It’s like a little prayer
Cables outside
You know I like them there
  • 2 1
 seatpost size ?
  • 2 0
 31.6
  • 1 0
 Gorgeous
  • 1 0
 Frameworks
  • 1 3
 I don't really see this being much different than the aluminum slash 5 but with the slash you get in frame storage which is a huge bonus
  • 1 0
 seat tube angle and insertion depth on the slash are not great
  • 1 1
 Any plans to steepen the seat tube so the effective top tube is shorter?
  • 1 1
 I just trade my Madonna V2.2 for a 2022 Giant Trance 2. No Joke
  • 4 6
 That's a lot of money for an aluminum Sight, without paint.
  • 3 0
 What marketing branch at Norco do you work at?
  • 1 0
 Not saying that you are wrong about the money, but I own V2.2 and have ridden my mate's Sight. They ride very differently in my opinion, some of this would be down to set up of course.
  • 1 0
 A Sight with a Cascade link would probably be closer
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