First Ride: Raaw Madonna V3 - Better Than Ever
It's been seven years since Raaw first presented the aluminum-framed Madonna to the mountain bike world. Version 2.0 was released back in 2020, and now it's time to introduce the third iteration of this no-frills, high performance machine.
At first glance the Madonna V3 doesn't look all that different from the prior version, and the basics of the bike do remain the same. The frame is still aluminum, with 160mm of travel, the bearings are big and well sealed, and the housing is routed externally for easy servicing. Take a closer look, though, and the tweaks and refinements that Raaw implemented start to show up – the top tube is lower, the rocker link has been slimmed down, and the downtube allows for more shock clearance.
At first glance the Madonna V3 doesn't look all that different from the prior version, and the basics of the bike do remain the same. The frame is still aluminum, with 160mm of travel, the bearings are big and well sealed, and the housing is routed externally for easy servicing. Take a closer look, though, and the tweaks and refinements that Raaw implemented start to show up – the top tube is lower, the rocker link has been slimmed down, and the downtube allows for more shock clearance.
Madonna V3 Details
• 160mm travel, 170mm fork
• Aluminum frame
• 29" wheels (mixed wheel shock mount available)
• Sizes: S, M, L, XL, XXL
• Weight (size L): 35.8 lb / 16.2 kg
• Price: frame kits from €2,790, rolling chassis from €4,945.
• raawmtb.com
• 160mm travel, 170mm fork
• Aluminum frame
• 29" wheels (mixed wheel shock mount available)
• Sizes: S, M, L, XL, XXL
• Weight (size L): 35.8 lb / 16.2 kg
• Price: frame kits from €2,790, rolling chassis from €4,945.
• raawmtb.com
The Madonna V3 is available to order now, with delivery expected in February 2024. The bike is available as a frame only or as a rolling chassis, but Raaw won't be offering any complete bikes.
The chainslap protector works well, and also covers the derailleur housing.
Different lower shock mounts are available to adjust the BB height, progression, or to run a 27.5" rear wheel.
Frame Details
At a time when some companies are doing everything they can to cram housing through headsets, Raaw's dedication to fully external routing deserves to be commended. The path of the rear derailleur housing is as straight as possible in order to minmize friction-inducing bends, and according to Raaw they wanted to show just how smooth a mechanical drivetrain could be.
For riders that want to go the wireless electronic route, UDH-compatible seatstays are available that make it possible to run SRAM's T-Type drivetrain (they're also available for the previous generation Madonna & Jibb).
The Madonna was designed around a 170mm fork, but it is dual crown compatible as long as the max axle-to-crown height is maintained (that equates to a 180mm fork), and it will accept the same bolt-on fork bumpers used on the Yalla downhill bike. On the topic of frame protection, there's a new chainstay protector that runs over the top of the derailleur housing, and a 5mm thick pad on the bottom of the downtube.
The main and rocker pivots have been updated with wider bearings and new axles that run through the bearing race in order to reduce the likelihood of creaking developing. Protective covers are in place over all the bearings, another step towards making the Madonna as weather-resistant as possible.
Geometry
The Madonna now comes in five sizes, with reach numbers starting at 430mm, and increasing in 25mm increments up to 530mm on the XXL. The chainstay length varies depending on the size, but it's also adjustable by plus or minus 5 millimeters by switching the dropout insert.
The head angle has been slackened by .5-degrees, and now sits at 64-degrees. The use of a straight head tube allows for angle-adjusting headsets to easily be used for riders looking for more extreme or conservative geometry. As it is, the numbers all look very well thought out, and Raaw says that the stock settings are what they recommend, at least initially.
For riders that want to tinker, the adjustments first seen on the Raaw Yalla DH bike have been brought over to the Madonna. There are different lower shock mounts available that can be used to raise or lower the bottom bracket by 3mm, or increase or decrease the shock progression by 3%. The changes can be combined too; there are mounts that will raise the BB and also change the shock rate.
Suspension Design
The Madonna keeps its Horst link suspension layout, but the amount of progression has increased to 26%. The goal with the changes was to help the shock start compressing as soon as the rear wheel hits the ground, and I'd say Raaw succeeded – it's very impressive how smoothly the bike goes into its travel.
There are two different rocker links available – the 60 and 65 – that are used to change the leverage ratio depending on rider weight. The 60 is for riders under 90 kg and uses a 60mm stroke shock, while the 65 is for riders over 90 kg and uses a 65mm shock. The progression is nearly identical between the two, at 26% for the 60 and 23% for the 65.
Ride Impressions
When I reviewed the previous version of the Madonna, I said that it was one of the best cornering bikes I'd ever ridden. I've spent time on dozens of bikes since writing those words, but it turns out that's still the case with the updated model. Its ability to hold a line through a rough, chopped up corner is remarkable – it's calm and stable, while still delivering an engaging ride. The low bottom bracket, tall front end, and relatively long chainstays all work together to create a bike that can maintain speed very well.
The geometry makes it easy to stay centered in the middle of the bike, and push into turns as hard as possible without worrying about losing traction. The positioning sort of reminds me of standing up on a scooter, but in a good way – it makes it easier to absorb impacts, compared to being too hunched over or stretched out.
I'm a big fan of bikes that feel like they encourage you to go faster, or to send it extra deep just to see what'll happen, and the Madonna is firmly in that category. It's quiet and composed without feeling too muted or dull, and it can smash down a rough trail with the best of them, especially when it's set up with a coil shock.
Raaw sent out my test bike with a Float X air shock and an Ohlins TTX22 coil shock, and I also have the shock mount to run it with a mixed-wheel setup. I'll be experimenting with the various configurations over the next few months and report back with my findings. The weather will likely vary between wet and wetter, so it'll be a good chance to see how those bearing seals work too.
For more pictures of the Madonna V3, head on over to the album here.
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Also that dropout is kinda weird, is it a flip chip?
It's a nice bike regardless.
For the short spells of time I have actually been able to ride it due to waiting for warranty replacement frame parts or repairs to shocks it has destroyed. When i have ridden it, it has eaten bearings out for a past time with play like no other bike i have owned in the last 30 years MTB riding.
I Have had two front triangles due to alignment issues, I have had one rear seat stay assembly because the aluminium bearing insert came loose in the carbon. I have had 4 rocker links (two either side) replaced due to the actual carbonfibre of the groove for the bearing retaining circlip failing whilst riding it.
They have now replaced with rocker links with a different design, they are still made from carbon but with aluminum inserts for the bearings and circlip to sit into correctly. I just hope they don't come loose from the carbon like the seat stay did ? time will tell.
It killed two Fox X2 shocks one Fox Float shock and damaged my my EXT in this time also.
I like to do long trips over to the alps but It couldn't do more than 8 straight days up in Scotland between warranty claims for one thing or another.
So I bought a RAAW madonna v2.2 and it is pretty damn Amazing in comparison from both an engineering and ride characteristics point of view I can tell you. Yes it is heavier but that's due to the actual quality and detailing of whats going on with the design and assembly of the sub components. But this weight makes it handle like a demon down hill and in rough terrain, yes it ain't going to be a bike for massive pedal days though it has not stopped me, but really that's not what its about, this is a bike for people who can actually ride hard, and this bike has already done a 5 week trip out across in Spain and 7 weeks out in the french and Italian alps of constant hard riding, and it has been faultless. I actually can't see a need to even consider buying the V3 to be fair for myself as my V2.2 is a keeper.
Had a V1 Sentinel, absolutely no issues at all, rode the wheels off it for 4 years, and I ride with the guy who traded bikes with me. I replaced the rocker with a Cascade link, and measured the frame tolerances, and it was prolly the best put together bike I have worked on.
Currently have a Spire, 2 seasons, loads of riding, only issue was a shitty Transition stem, and sorting out some headset creaks. No shock issues, bearings, nothing.
Good friend has an alu Spire, same thing, shitty stem, everything else great.
I'll also say, the team at Transition have been great to work with, loads of help with trying different suspension setups, etc.
Bummer to hear about all your issues, I'd be pretty salty if that was my bike as well.
Bought a geometron. Never looked back. Same could be said for Raaw I imagine. I’m done with plastic toy bikes.
In fairness I prefer the RAAW's stack height. I would pay Nic the custom fee for a longer headtube because I prefer Nicolai otherwise, but I recognize that wouldn't be everyone's choice. Based on the recent field test comments though it seems tall stack isn't for everyone anyway.
Plus their after market support is ne plus ultra. Look at their website, spare parts galore at reasonable prices.
I went with Title polished bar and stem, like a big chrome bumper on a truck
I don’t think there’s an updated Spire
I mentioned that i had headset creaks (I just pulled out the bearings, re-greased, and reassembled)
and a shitty Transition stem, which I replaced with Title stem and bar
Cheers!
My V1 Sentinel was one of the best aligned bikes I had ever taken apart. I installed a Cascade link, and took some measurements while doing it, nothing really out of what you would consider normal spec.
I have carbon Spire, same thing, bike is great, and outside of a real light rebound tune, its a tonne of fun, much more than I would have expected. Buddy has an alu Spire, same thing, bike is solid. We both ride a lot, so they get loads of miles, and I have absolutely no mechanical sympathy whatsoever!
Theres actually 5 Transitions within my group of friends (not sure how that happened, might have been from all the praise I had given them) and there has not been any issues with any of them (except the shitty stems that came stock, those are hot garbage)
Currently the carbon spire is my logical upgrade, but the sentinel v1 just do fine anytime i ride it. I want to put a cascade link but honestly i just love how it rides even with the kind of out of tune dpx2. Anyways, this is Raaw article, wonder if the Jibb will receive some update also?
I have an XL V2.2 and it fits a 240mm one up dropper, insertion seems plenty to me! Haha
My XL Guerilla Gravity has about an inch more insertion.
Maybe the data Raaw provides is wrong, but they say the Seattube on the L frame ist only 268mm deep.
You have a longer inseam than me and I'm 4in taller. Just goes to show you the variety in body types.
High Pivot, longer seat post insertion, 620g/1.36lb lighter frame, and made in Germany rather than Taiwan.
Can't go wrong with either but I can't resist shouting out a favorite brand
m.pinkbike.com/news/review-privateer-161-the-budget-priced-brute.html#:~:text=The%20Raaw%20Madonna%20and%20the,the%20comparison%20even%20more%20appropriate.
I have a 210 on my Ripmo and I often find I don’t push it fully down, as the last 10-20mm is kinda negligible anyway. It’s well out of the way by then and it just feels a long way to squat down, especially if I’ve just had a quick pedal section and need it out of the way in a hurry.
Yet the insertion on Kenevo Sl is just a touch too short… I’ve yet to really have a problem with the seat not being out of the way. However after years of long droppers I feel it could do with at least 10-20mm more drop (it comes stock with a 170 X dropper and it’s slammed to work for my inseam. S4 @ 183cm tall and forget my actual seam measurement)
So I guess I’m really saying 180 - 210 is now what I consider the sweet spot as far enough out of the way.
I also work in real engineering full time and work on my own bikes and friends bikes often, so can respect it more than most I suppose who just probably ride and get there bikes serviced at a shop and be done with it. So from both a design point of view and longevity of required maintenance of these pivots it is a well thought out design, its a pity more manufactures don't adopt this ethos, but then it does add weight, But I prefer saving cash and time not doing strip downs to check or replace bearings so often.
The bearings are the usual radial bearings like any other bike has, apart from the two obviously larger ones and yes it has the two washers either side of the bearings like most bikes have, BUT these washers are unique on the RAAW as they actually do something rather than fill up with crap, as these have a replaceable rubber seal with groove for it, so these give better sealing from water and dirt ingress. Then there is also a shoulder which goes inside the internal diameter of the bearing, so when the pivot pin is installed the inner race of the bearing is properly clamped unlike some bikes I have found where the pin is worn as the bearing has just span on it. Where the outer race of the bearings are installed in to the frame / parts there are small machined cut outs to enable proper and easy access to remove the bearing correctly when they do require replacement, I've yet to try this out as my bearings are still fine. One thing I do like of this frame is the Rocker link, it is solid and I believe it helps the frame feel solid and properly connected with no noticeable flex, compared to my Transition V2 sentinel I previously mentioned above, that has independent rocker links which flex when ridden hard and is in my opinion a cause of a lot of issues with that frames particular design as a whole as it leads to flex at all points, and because I personally know of far to many riders who have suffered with there Tranny V2 sentinels like I have in my local network of riders, they just don't tend to shout about it like I have. Many have moved there frames on.
There is one annoying thing I don't really like on the V2.2 however and it is a bit of a pain to set it just right so nothing kinks and the suspension travel is not restricted, and that is how the gear cable and brake hose leaves the main frame and goes to the chainstay it's a tight bend, to much for my liking around the that area under the main pivot, but they appear to have changed it on the new frame so that's old news now.
"I'll be experimenting with the various configurations over the next few months and report back with my findings."
But maybe just let it be...not a racer...
Everyone, I know the internet doesn’t allow for it, but it’s totally ok to have differing opinions. That’s how groups of people work. PinkBike has way bigger issues than expert cyclists being a touch jaded.
I'm pretty sure what Kaz actually said in that podcast is that he doesn't find youtube videos of average riders very inspiring - with the emphasis very much on the "not very inspiring" part. That's what his statement was about and IMO that is a perfectly reasonable opinion.
I too find clips of pro riders performing feats of great skill a lot more inspiring than footage of people riding at an average or below-average skill level. Doesn't mean I go around and leave a bunch of mean comments under videos I didn't enjoy. I just don't see how that would diminish or invalidate someone's effort.
On the contrary, I honestly find it a bit strange and pretentious when creators overvalue their own creation. Some of them sometimes seem to expect to be applauded and put on a pedestal just because they did a thing - even though that thing might not have been particularly remarkable. That's how it seems to someone like me anyways, who's very much an outsider when it comes to social-media.
By the way, none of what I said applies to Quinney. What he said was downright rude. But I suspect that sort of was the point. He seems like the kind of guy who just enjoys to offend from time to time.
www.reddit.com/r/MTB/comments/q80fqt/this_youtuber_barking_at_people_to_pull_over_at_a
youtu.be/klRJN4Dhho4?si=Cdj_R478lsO7pOJ4
half the camp says "yOuR'e GaTeKeEpInG" and the other half says the videos suck and don't deserve to be on the internet, as if it's some finite volume that will eventually become full.
I did listen to that Pinkbike Podcast and thought nothing of either Henry or Kaz's comments. They were discussing pet peeves, which I take to mean silly sh*t that annoys you when you know it shouldn't. Loam Ranger seems to have Streisand Effect-ed those comments, maybe intentionally for the views.
I will say there is some very valid critique about the impact more users are having on trails and surround environment/animals and this is not addressed by the people promoting locations to sometimes thousands of people (aka profiting off of their existence). I’m not saying it’s the influencer’s fault, but it’d be nice to see more discussion about this. Also smaller influencers regularly posting unsanctioned stuff and literally directing people step by step how to get there is something I’ve witnessed numerous times. Yes I watch the smaller guys and still don’t agree with loam ranger.
Nate Hills has actually spoken about these dynamics before and how he is complicit in these things and I have a ton of respect for that. He also probably would not care about any of these statements. Still too busy riding bikes.
And finally, loam ranger passes Kaz or Henry on the trail is the conversation gonna go down like this? I am very doubtful. It’d actually most likely be resolved or something and I’m sure all parties would be very respectful and understanding of each other. And with the way YouTube works, like you have to acknowledge loam ranger thought about views when posting this.
Truth is, Pinkbike is losing viewers to content creators. They are losing ad revenue due to the cycle industry issues and content creators are getting budget, doing reviews, gaining followers. Pinkbike isn't on the top anymore (not sure they ever were...) Pinkbike's snobby view is like the old Instagram algorithm. No ADS! No Promotions! Just shots of my coffee and some over used filter to make me look like an artist.
I think once Kaz and Henry have kids they will change their view. They seem to be stuck in some adult arrested development phase trying to please snotty 18 - 25 year old enduro bros. Vs the 90% of the MTB community who doesn't give a crap about pinkbike.
If you go back and look at the comments for the podcast, they are all from the last few days of September or two days ago. Now there are so many "long time listeners who are disappointed." Well, where were they a month ago when the podcast came out?
Also, the loam ranger basically says the only benefit he sees in people uploading videos that aren't remy is for trail recon and "if it will make a good thumbnail". He wouldn't care about these videos if it wasn't beneficial to his job.
Anyways, were the comments the best from PB, no, but this is absolutely blown way out of proportion by somebody who took over a month to make a response video.
#socialmediawillendhumanity
"GoHome, you're not a hero"
I don't think sharing an opinion is the issue, rather as you said, "the massive fuss." The Loam Ranger took a molehill and made it into a mountain, knowing it would get a bunch of people fired up and generate a lot of fuss. A good natured contrary opinion would have been great but a long, solemn video with a bunch of hand-wringing and the title "I have a big problem with pinkbike" to me was excessive. Made him seem reactionary and petty.
Totally. 100% pointless drama over nothing that actually matters. Just ride your bikes and have fun. Even the drama itself seems a bit disingenuous in that internet drama drives engagement and is a net positive for 'influencers'. Even if it's not necessarily in bad faith, the incentive still exists to take things out of context, act hyperbolic, or make something out of nothing.
Let's get our collective focus back on what actually matters: hating on ebikes
There's a lot of sentiment I can get behind: self-absorbed Influencers and Creators are the internet's hoors. And self promoting egoists without any perspective on their own abilities are just cringe.
But the sentiment that my neighbor next door (or I) shouldn't post gopro vids of their first trip to a bike park just because it further clogs your youtube search is petty, selfish, and assumes the point to youtube's existence is just to showcase the best of the best. It's not. There is plenty of home-made cringe, steaming shit, and just normal people saying "Hey I did a thing" on youtube because that is the whole point of YT. But even this makes the few standout athletes shine even more (imho) in perspective. Sometimes it's also fine to get a non-pro perspective on the difficulty level of a new trail at a park or what-not since there is a whole continuum of ability between just bumbling and truly sending it. If I judged the rideability of every trail by watching Brage, Remy or Yoann blasting down it on YT, I would probably wind up just staying home, since it gives an unrealistic (but jaw dropping) perspective for the other 95% of us.
Besides, if the gapers and newbs aren't out goproing their rides for youtube, where else are we going to get new material for friday fails?
While well produced pro rider edits are fun, they never inspire me in a „let’s go ride!“ way. Because the kind of riding the pros do is so far removed from mine that it might as well be a different sport. Impressive but irrelevant on a personal level.
Watching average riders ride interesting trails on the other hand is very inspiring. In the sense that I could go there and ride those trails and have just as much fun. The „let’s go ride“ factor is much higher!
Seatpost max insert S 220 mm / M 245 mm / L 268 mm / XL & XXL 294 mm
raawmtb.com/pages/madonna-v3
Nicolai make a similar product with a straight tube. And actually manufacture it in Germany if you care about such things.
Reach is measured and given at stack height (top of headtube). But you can always measure (or calculate) a reach number at your desired stack e.g. to compare frames.
A 64° head angle approx. means: Decreasing stack by 2 increases reach by 1.
I'll agree that too tall is worse than too low for most riders. Brake levers slammed into top tubes does happen with high-stack frames and slammed stem cockpits. Thankfully zero-rise bars do exist if you need 20-30mm less stack height.
Don't worry, if you want a sleek road bike look, there are many, many options for you. Chances are you would be shopping for carbon anyway.
The 677mm stack isn't far off of what I spec'd on my custom full suspension and I'm 2" taller than you.
Nicolai has what you need. They'll build anything you want for a custom fee but even without that the normal sizing on the Saturn 16 runs up to a 570mm reach and 690mm stack (XXXL).
www.bike-components.de/en/Nicolai/Saturn-16-29-Frame-p87984/?v=128518-factory-raw
They look extremely close especially now that Raaw lengthened the CS by 5mm, BUT Nicolai's published figures are with a 150mm fork. Swap a 170mm and things gets funky even with the 160mm rear. Saturn will be a degree slacker up front, but about the same ST angle. The Saturn has 10mm more reach and that is as short as it gets so smaller riders are SOL, and that 10mm pretty much disappears with the longer fork, as does almost all of the stack diff. Saturn looks like the BB height is within a scant 3mm, but that's with a 150mm fork. Once you put a 170mm fork on the Saturn will be closer to a tall -20mm of drop vs the Madonna's -35mm, which is a big reason people rave about the Madonna's cornering. BB height is a dealbreaker for me on the Saturn.
The Nicolai saves 0.65kg, has a shorter seattube and full length insertion. Plus it's a Nicolai - handmade in Germany and f*cking gorgeous. I'd buy one in a second were it not for the BB height. I'd buy a G1 if it had a vertical shock and less extreme head angle (and the Saturn tubeset for a nice drop in weight). And I'd buy a Madonna if it has a shorter seattube and full insertion. As it is, I still have no reason to get rid of my Specialized Enduro (S3), but fuuuuck, I'd love to trade it in for one of these aluminum masterpieces.
Nicolai's custom fee is ~$750. If you get really psyched to own one I bet they would be able to get the BB where you like.
There's always the G1 :-)
G1 is intriguing but would have to go with a custom frame, as the stack height on the G1 isn't that high like the Nicolai is
Now to lie in wait for upgrading V2 owners to post their frames on the Buy and Sell.
And of course, no thank you to all the intermediate bikers and skiers of the planet for thinking your $hit footage is suitable for anyone other than your great aunt.
As to the hta is what transition used 5 years ago… yes. That’s what we meant by v1 sentinel. The one from 5 years ago.
I have the v2.2, same stack height and a I have some 15mm spacers + 38mm rise bar. I tried removing even a 5mm spacer to see how it felt and it felt too low
I think that long chain stays and the steeper head angle allow you to run much more stack while still allowing you to weight the front wheel - I have no issues whatsoever with front wheel washouts, unlike with my last bike
"DUAL CROWN FORK COMPATIBILITY
Although a 170 mm single crown fork is our first choice for the Madonna, we’ve now added dual crown forks into the equation. The Madonna V3 fits the fork bumpers from the Yalla! to absorb impacts from the fork stanchions on the frame. The maximum axle-to-crown measurement of 598 mm should not be exceeded, but this translates to a 180 mm travel fork and we believe this to be the best fit when it comes to DC forks and the Madonna V3."
Maybe the numbers are conservative? Or it's sometimes the case that the total insert length of the dropper includes the length of the actuator, which can go a bit deeper than the rest of the post depending on the shape of the seat tube.
Fwiw, I have a v2 medium which claims a max insert of 245mm. Yet I can completely bury a 180mm OneUp which has a 267mm measured insert length. But that's also a slightly different seat post design so I'm not sure it's a completely relevant comparison.
Either way, it's probably based to take their numbers at face value and then maybe be pleasantly surprised when it works out better than planned.
I want the TT of the L and seattube from the M, and a reach of 470. So if i go M it will be too small and if i go L it will be too large.....
This has been my dream bike for long now but i looks like i have to wait for V4.
Only difference is that I want the TT of the M and a 470 reach (coming from a privateer 161 )
Or the L with a low stack dropper slammed, unless your legs are extra short
Didn't think about the stack, that might actually work. I have 469mm reach and 25mm lower stack on my bike with a 40mm stem. The wheelbase is also the same on a M.
So slamming the stem and increase it to 50mm and go with a M could be the solution. I need that 420 seattube anyways.
Sticking with 2.2, going to buy UDH seatstay and let her rip.
Sturdy frame, good bearings (and bearing alignment), simple cable routing and dialed suspension. Any bike in this travel bracket will be north of 30 pounds due to beefier parts (wheels, suspension, tires/inserts) so might as well have a frame that adds a little more weight-and peace of mind.
Have you seen the impact testing Santa Cruz, for example, puts their carbon frames through? Especially that classic video with the ad-hoc "smash it against a concrete block" test... and that was 15 year old CFRP tech, new stuff is even tougher. Carbon is not nearly as fragile as you think, and alloy is not nearly is tough as you think.
Carbon Stumpys have thicker walls and take hits better, but they’re not a whole lot lighter than an aluminum frame. Early versions of the current molds for the Stumpy EVO were lighter, broke and were usually warrantied so Specialized upped the wall thickness.
When you factor in that a bike in this travel bracket will be heavy anyway, why not save the cash??
As for wall thickness-I chose the other 2 metal frames for a reason. Tube walls are thicccccc
What is a "normal flicked rock"? I've had 3-pound baseball size ones flicked up and them slammed into them going 30 kph. Would have put a significant dent in many alloy frames. The rock had nothing to do with the difficulty of the trail, probably worse on a blue because I'd likely be going faster.
"take hits better, but they’re not a whole lot lighter than an aluminum frame"
Better than what? Cheap carbon? Average alloy? Both in my experience. In which case, being significantly lighter or not is moot: it's stronger/stiffer (in the right places) and as durable if not more durable: that's what I'd pay for. Anyone thinking carbon stuff is only about saving weight is doing it wrong and stuck in the 90s.
Go throw rocks at your Ripmo AF, see how thicc those tubes really are...
That’s a normal impact. And my thicccccc walled Ripmo AF has taken similar hits….with nothing more than paint scuffs
Cheap or poorly built bikes aren’t straight, regardless of material. Well built bikes are dead straight regardless of material. And a well engineered frame built on a best quality assembly line is always straight these days.
The frames that have the most alignment issues are direct order brands that use lower quality assembly (even on carbon) to keep their prices down.
*who am I kidding, absolutely would.
"Everything but the ...motor? Huh?"
So, if I'm riding a 470 reach bike right now with almost 2cm less stack, reach will - given that the handle bar is mounted in the same hight on both bikes, around one centimeter longer, right? Which means that, compared to my current 470 bike, the M would feel like 465, but the L like 490, correct?
Ahhh .. it's so confusing to me ...
This bike in a size L is longer than what you currently have, but you might find that the more upright position created by the tall front end makes it feel more manageable. As an experiment, you could install some bars one your bike with 20mm more rise than what you currently have, just to see what that part of the equation feels like.
But that the high stack of the Madonna will affect the reach measurement, which is not affected by spacers ? Which means that, given the same handle bar height, the feeling I get standing up will be comparable between the two bikes, despite the difference in reach?
Previously they said you could totally run a 65mm stroke shock on the rocker 60 link (the one designed for 60mm stroke shock), and it would leave you with 171mm of rear travel. That was my plan if I ever got one (and, its been taunting me for years), and curious if thats still an option.
Love the updates (evolution not revolution), aesthetic, and ethos on display here.
“With the headset cups, you can also shorten or lengthen the reach by 5 mm, and steepen or slacken the head angle by 1°”
Haven’t seen this mentioned elsewhere so I’m not sure if it’s true… anybody know?
Or at least that's what makes sense to me. Which means it's probably 1000% wrong :/ .
Now explain me like I am 5... why would I buy this instead of let's say Trek Slash or Spesh Enduro? Or Yeti SB160 etc
Spesh Enduro - never ridden something which creaked so badly. Also are bearings, which there are a lot of, in a mud trap linkage. Oh, and they crack, a lot.
Yeti - Don’t even know what to say about badly built they are. Knackered SI links, frames cracking all over the place, all backed up by Yeti’s legendary terrible customer service (through their distro’s).
How’s that?
In your opinion which carbon frame would you recommend then? Genuinely curious
If you’re putting in big miles on hard lines, a Madonna will require less frequent bearing replacements, and other services will be faster/easier to perform.
There are a lot of good big travel/enduro bikes available these days-you’d want to try before you buy anyway. Trek runs a digressive shock tune that pedals well and works great when you’re pinning it, but is less forgiving on big lines if you’re tired. RAAW prioritizes grip over pop, so not as lively but easier to ride fast when you’re blown out.
No BS here. And half an hour on various owner forums will give you a real world view, not your odd rose tinted glasses version.
Yeti got amazing service, cuz their bikes are overpriced as hell, so you are paying in advance for awesome service. BTW - Trek is one of the best after-purchase support I dealt with... cracking... not sure tho... all bikes have cses of cracking, but Trek is not famous for that and they sell millions of bikes
As for Yeti, first hand experiences. As I said however that’s dealing with their distro’s. I’ve never ridden something so unreliable & had such poor support. Literally fighting for warranty & waiting months for replacement parts.
I’ll caveat that & say any warranty issues I’ve ever had with big bike brands (Trek/Spesh) has been brilliant in comparison.
I’m much (much) more annoyed at bikes that weigh this much with waaaaay less travel. If a bike has lighter wheels and downsized suspension bits (34 forks, smaller can rear shock, lighter wheels) that should be reflected on the scale.
"The chainstay length varies depending on the size, but it's also adjustable by switching the dropout insert. That means any frame size can have 445, 450, or 455mm chainstays depending on rider preference."
"All frame sizes come with the rear wheel axle in the mid position. For S and M size frames that’s 445 mm, L is 450 mm, and XL and XXL frames are 455 mm. From there, the chainstay length can be adjusted to 5 mm shorter or longer with separate rear wheel axle kits."
So each size has adjustability +/- 5mm from the 'default' position listed in the geo chart. This differs from the previous model which went 440-450 across the board.
But truly a beautiful frame set
Attention to detail and everything done purposeful intention
\m/
When I build this frame
It’s like a little prayer
Cables outside
You know I like them there
Can we just start calling this "difference between starting and ending ratios"? Progressiveness/linear-ness/regressiveness really has to do with rate of change or ratios, not just the difference. There is an almost infinite number of curves that can have the same starting and ending ratios, thus the same "progression" by this inaccurate metric, but feel very different because of the shape of the curve and the actual rate of change of ratios as certain important points, especially near top and bottom of travel.