I've never bought that whole ''mountain biking is too expensive'' argument, although I am well aware that I probably don't have the best perspective of value these days. I mean, the last couple of bikes I've written about cost around $10,000 USD, and my current stable of carbon fiber review rigs doesn't look much different. To be fair, we do often request the mid-priced model for testing, only to find the XTR and carbon-everything model when the box is opened... You can imagine my disappointment. But lately, it's been feeling like an attitude adjustment is in order, or maybe a field trip of some kind.
While last year's Field Test review series was full of high-end dream bikes, Kazimer and I recently traveled to Sedona, Arizona, to ride and film the upcoming value-focused Field Trip review videos. The idea with both Fields is to test the latest and most relevant bikes, but Field Trip saw a price limit of $3,000 USD imposed, with the least expensive bike going for just $1,400. That's $600 less than the drivetrain I'm currently charging, and you get an entire bike that definitely doesn't suck.
I'm not supposed to give too much about Field Trip away yet, but the gist of it is four trail bikes that cost under $3,000 and four that cost under $2,000, with an even split between direct-to-consumer and those you'll find at a bike shop. Two of those were hardtails because, well, you can't ignore them in this price bracket, and all of them were metal in order to come in below the self-imposed cost cap.
Barring a few of those unavoidable cactus-related incidents (turns out there are almost no inside lines in the desert), the two weeks of testing eight relatively inexpensive machines on Sedona's very rocky, rough, and red trails was largely trouble-free.
You'll be able to watch all the videos and roundtable arguments soon, but I came away thoroughly impressed with how capable most of the bikes were. I also learned a few things.
Less Expensive Doesn't Mean Less ReliableI have no idea what the actual numbers are, but I feel like we see more high-end products failing than their less-expensive counterparts. Maybe we're just more likely to see or hear about the broken expensive part on our Insta-news than the cheap part that also failed, or maybe the high-end components do break more often because they've been engineered to within a few grams of their lives. But either way, not a single component on any of our value mountain bikes broke during our time abusing them in Sedona.
The disclaimer is, of course, those two-weeks counts for shit if we're talking about long-term reliability, but I've also seen the rocky American southwest eat bikes alive in a way that my Pacific Northwest home just can't. Pointy rocks punch holes through $3,500 carbon frames like they're made of wet paper mache, let alone your "enduro-ready" tires, and I don't think there's an aluminum rim in Sedona without at least one questionable dent in it.
Two bikes came with tires that couldn't be run tubeless, which obviously led to a few flats, because who the hell remembers how to ride a bike that has tubes? We also had some pivot hardware rattle loose a few times, but all eight value bikes came through essentially unscathed. This includes the wheels, but the big thing to note is that there were no broken frames, despite them seeing plenty of heavy hits and chunky terrain.
And yes, they were all hucked to flat while being filmed in the slowest of mo. As long as you're riding it as intended, there's no reason why less expensive had to mean less reliable.
Geo is Still EverythingThis isn't news, I know, but the fact that a $1,400 full-suspension bike can (mostly) keep up with one that costs more than twice as much is incredible. Because no bike review is complete without a bit of pseudo-science, we mapped out an 11-ish-minute loop that all of the bikes had to complete multiple times under both Kazimer and myself, meaning we ended up with a minimum of four results for each of them. The lap was also split into three distinct sections: all of the climbing was done in the first third, which then put you on a technical traverse for the middle sector, before dropping into a flowy downhill that started with some rough, suspension-testing corners.
No, it wasn't some Fest-worthy downhill test track full of do-or-die super booters, but it was representative of the terrain that all eight of our value bikes were intended to face. And for the most part, I had all of my quickest times when riding the four bikes that cost less than $2,000, including my personal best lap.
Honestly, I've always felt a bit dubious about timing and how much value gets put on the numbers, but these results underlined, yet again, that good geometry is what makes good bikes.
Cheap VS Expensive: Where's the Difference?If geometry is everything but costs nothing, what the hell are some of us doing on $10,000 bikes? Sure, the fancy stuff does some pretty neat things, but what are the real on-trail differences between break-the-bank and budget biking?
Front suspension performance is a big one. While leverage can mask a lot of what's happening at the back of a full-suspension bike, there's no hiding for a budget fork that's right below your hands. These days, a high-end fork from any of the big players (and most of the small players) performs so well that it's essentially invisible to a lot of riders, even those who don't take the time to find a decent setup. They're incredibly smooth, usually reliable, and have an operating window that runs from 12-year-old children to 300lb men who only jump to flat. As they should for nearly $1,000.
It's a different story with budget suspension forks, however, with air-spring rates that somehow manage to feel regressive and damping that, well, let's just call it much less sophisticated. It's worth noting that the entry-level front suspension didn't affect the times on our trail bike-appropriate test track, even if it was noticeable, but they were certainly a factor on our bigger test rides that included much hairier, scarier trails. You'll get all the details in the upcoming Field Trip reviews.
Disappointing ergonomics proved to be a big talking point in Sedona as well, despite all of the braking and shifting controls being from either SRAM or Shimano. After extensive scientific testing that can't be backed up at all, I've come to the conclusion that both companies think people who buy reasonably priced bikes must have insanely long fingers. That's the only excuse I can come up with for having to practically remove my hand from the grip to reach the shifter paddles, and for why someone might want an 8" long brake lever that looks like it's made for five fingers to pull on. Then again, they had such low power that you pretty much needed five fingers to lay down a good skid.
Enough complaining, though. All of the bikes came with 12-speed drivetrains with a huge range that didn't even give us one hiccup, relatively wide handlebars and short-ish stems that didn't need to be swapped before we partied, and all but two came with tubeless-ready rubber. Not surprisingly, it's the four consumer-direct bikes that win the price-to-performance battle.
LBS vs. OnlineI spent more than a decade working in the same small bike shop, years that I wouldn't trade for anything and something that everyone in the cycling industry should have to experience, if only for some perspective. That time means that I'll always have a soft spot for any local bike shop, but I also have to admit that if I had $3,000 (or less) to spend on a mountain bike, I'd be hard-pressed to not go the direct-to-me route via my credit card.
Bike shops are all about - or should be all about - creating lasting, trusting relationships with consumers while also paying the bills, a task that seems to get more difficult every year. Of course, consumers have to pay their bills, too, and most riders don't want to spend more than they have to on a bike, but also want the most bike for their buck. If you don't have a shop close by, or don't have one with you gel with, it makes all the sense in the world to check out what's online.
All I can really say on the LBS versus direct-to-consumer subject is that while the latter will always win if you're only looking at MSRPs, your local shop deserves the chance to win you over before you go down that trail.
Would be interesting to see an article on what upgrades/modifications to these bikes make them perform significantly better, either from a speed or comfort perspective. Is the Charger 2 damper upgrade for a Yari fork worth it? A coil conversion? Am I better off saving a ton of weight with a lighter crankset? Are tires the first thing to upgrade? Best bang for the $? A newer rider 2 years into riding one of these bikes might not be willing to drop more $ on a new bike but carefully chosen upgrades and modifications might have real value.
I'm proud of you bud. Not because you like donuts or drive a car made for Chihuahua's without givin AF - but because you're finally off the sauce and seeing what individuals with clarity have been seeing in this industry for the passed decade. $10k plastic bikes are for pro racers and/or posers (or people with a sh*t ton if disposable income). Period. You can get a perfectly capable ride for under $3k and have tons of fun. ...now lay off the donuts, ya fatty.
Smaller, more personal upgrades are different, obviously. Tyres, brake pads/rotors, saddles, grips, etc.
My thing is upgrading to new framsets and swapping parts out as they stuff wears out, so I might get four bikes out of a cockpit a few bikes out of brakes, forks are a little more variable cuz I like to buy and sell forks
Nope. Tires, grips and other touch points are wear items so worth talking about in terms of upgrades if only because eventually you’ll have to anyways, assuming the bike gets ridden. A Charger damper upgrade for a Yari is less than $300 CAD, a Vorsprung smashpot kit is $420 CAD. Worth it? Maybe, I don’t know. A well researched article on these topics would be interesting.
A carbon bar and more expensive stem? Highly unlikely to be worth it. Low friction fork seals and a shock tune? Again, maybe, and I’d like to read more about it. Moreover, so would a lot of riders who are newer to the sport and, it would seem, a lot of riders who aren’t.
If nothing else, that's going to help light a fire under some of the product managers, who despite having a hard job, still need to have a better idea of where they need to succeed, and places where saving a bit of cash is great (saddles, grips)
cheaper for me.
1. I already have some components I want to use. I save some stock parts I
don't use for when I resale the bike.
2. I can find deals online for components cheaper enough to make it worth
it.
3. I get to choose the components I want. I am running a GX 10 speed with a
Garbaruk Cassette that is lighter than
anything out there and has the range I want.
4. I do sell some of the stock parts, like the fork. I sold the recon ($160)
on my new rift zone and bought a brand new
take of Pike Select ($47 .
5. I like bargain hunting and I like tinkering so it works out for me. If
you don't know what parts your looking for or
know how to work on a bike then it probably is better to buy a bike a
level or two up.
Here is what I have for $3200: Rift Zone 1, 2019 pike select fork, 2019
RockShox deluxe RCT debonair, manic dropper, Guide RS brakes, Spanks Spike
Vibracore bars, spanks stem, Hunt wheels, 2.3 Minions, GX shifter and
derailleur, Garbaruk 11-45 cassette. The bike is just under 30lbs. I have
all the stock parts, minus the fork, to sell with the bike when I choose to
move on. And I can carry over the parts I want to the next bike or frame.
I know there are other great options out there for around $3200. But I
wouldn't get the build kit I have on my Marin or the enjoyment of building
it up.
Now, it would be really cool to see this kind of test expanded upon and replicated. Please @mikelevy @brianpark make it happen!
youtu.be/JOlc0a2eVTo
Then you would see a more genuine comparison. The biggest difference for me is my newest one has the most travel, and is also the lightest. And much more forgiving to ride uphill given dropper and steeper seat angle.
So yeah, fix the Brodie's brakes, install 1x and then see how it goes.
Maybe also something that's more "trail bike" thrown in. Probably a Cannondale Raven. I suggest you wear all the pads if you ride one though, even uphill.
Maybe some old Gary? Early trek fuel (before they looked like a session)?
I'm in a bit more than you on upgrades to my budget-ish bike, but I'm definitely an advocate for skipping the latest and greatest for last years stuff. Keeping in mind that last years stuff....just last year, was the greatest stuff ever invented. I'm loving my new gen Marzocchi bomber Z1 with the GRIP 1 damper that is literally a third the price of the top end fox 36 with GRIP 2
Granted this is a low level praise, but I never felt like the XCM was about to break or trying to get me hurt.
So I'm a pretty solid mechanic, I build my own bikes, lace my own wheels, tune my own suspension. On the occasion that I need some parts, say housing, cable ends, some grips, I'll pop into one of my local bike shops.
Well, lets just say that I find it challenging to find a bike shop where the people running the place are not asshats: rude, condescending, not interested in being helpful. I often wonder why a shop would hire people like that. Sadly, in my experience this is the rule more than it's the exception.
So here's my suggestion to shop owners:
Hire nice people who know how to talk to people in a way that makes the customer feel good about themselves,about their choices, and about coming into your shop.
I know it's possible to hire good people because many other retailers and service sector providers have been able to do this for skilled and unskilled labor. The places that come to mind: REI, Trader Joes.
Sadly, I think this economic downturn is gonna lead to a whole lot of closed shops.
It's not unique to just biking, though. Go into a kayak shop with a kayak from Walmart and you'll get the same condescension. Go into a skate shop or surf shop, etc, etc.
2nd: I honestly don’t think so. I can’t prove it but I really think some shops (the better ones) will see increased sales because of people not traveling As much and riding local trails. Bikes are one of the few things people can still do while keeping their distance. Of course this may work in reverse for shops in highly tourism driven economies but I think for the most part shops are gonna be just fine.
AMEN Mike!!!
A previous bike (different lbs) was also below MSRP and I got 3 tune-ups.
Direct to consumer doesn't do any of those things. You pay the asking price and deal with maintenance yourself. If you have a warranty issue you can be stuck waiting. A good LBS will get warranty stuff done way quicker and my current lbs would definitely loan me a bike in the meantime. Oh, they also offer free pickup and drop-off for repairs.
Unfortunately yes. Was it Boost 141? Can we please burn all Boost 141s with nuclear fire? At least (I'm assuming, since a front QR wasn't mentioned) that they all had thru-axle fronts. Any chance they were all Boost?
I'd be sad if it came with SRAM level T.
All that said, I'm not complaining, I knew the brakes might not be up to snuff, bought it anyway. If it came with Codes, it couldn't be reviewed in an under $3000 bike test!
With the 2020 sight you have to bump up to an A2 model to get code r. The A3 has BR-MT420 which I've found to be worse than guides (YMMV). So it seems like a common place to save money on the base model.
Ripmos af came out weeks after I bought my bike. It may be my next (with a coil). I could use a touch more travel in the rear. Then swap over my gx bits. No clue on the alloy 2020 sight weight. Only person I know with a 2020 went carbon custom build. He loves it. Way better than his carbon range.
My dilemma is I want a new bike, but want a Mezzer and coil rear shock, so it's frame only, which isn't great value here, or take these items off and hope they're worth something.
Who cares about timed loops, especially at this price? The only metric that matters should be fun, more funner, and most funnest.
The folks buying these kind of bikes don't care if they shave 1 second off their Strava time. They probably don't even have any Strava times yet! All they care about is whether mountain biking is really as fun as their friends with the $6K plastic bikes insist that it is.
Not to say speed isn't fun, but shaving seconds just shouldn't matter a whiff for this category (really any category that's not $10K XC race whippet, DH race sled, or EWS race rig), but that's another story.
It also validates that you don't have to spend $10k to go fast.
Imagine you're helping someone buy their first or second bike. They're new, they're still getting their head around maybe wearing knee pads or even getting special shoes for biking. Is it going to help them to say "this bike is 1 second faster per minute on some idealized trail with equal parts up, across, and down", or is it better to say "this bike is nice and balanced, easy to maneuver, has good options for the price, and is quite durable"? I'd say the latter is much more important and the former is literally useless in light of the rest. Especially since everyone keeps pointing out that you don't need a fancy bike to go fast. Every one goes fastest on a bike they feel comfortable on, and one that isn't broken. If they sacrifice fit or durability because Levy said this other bike was 1.25% faster on Perfect Loop Trail #2, that's a shitty compromise. Now, yes of course the best fitting and most durable bike might also be the fastest, but that's personal and doesn't change the fact that the choice should be made on pretty much every other factor except miniscule speed difference on one trail for one or two people that aren't the purchasing rider.
Mostly, I'm betting that bike was quick everywhere because the geometry was correct, the tires were actually usable both up AND down the hill, and that the cockpit wasn't so horrendously uncomfortable that it's going to introduce problems with operating the bike... things that previously have been issues up to the $3000 price point, but are now hopefully going the way of the dodo
As an aside, I disagree that everyone goes faster on a bike they feel comfortable on, and also that those people who are most comfortable are having the most fun. MTB for me (and I'm sure at least some others) is about feeling a bit sketchy, fighting on, fearing for your safety and coming out of it with a big grin... you don't need comfortable bikes to achieve this.
A bike that fits (mostly reach, stack, and front & rear centers), and allows the rider to efficiently and effectively make the small adjustments that riding awesome sketchy stuff requires, but without having to over compensate for a bike that is: too long, too short, too tall, too easy to endo, too easy to loop out, etc etc.
I also would like to see an "Essential Upgrades" video.Having just bought my first real Full-Suspension I went the LBS route for financial reasons...
Wait what?
let me explain.
Heres a reason the LBS is good,
I had invested $600 in demos for 2019 and they applied that to buying a demo bike at 30% off msrp.
I mod everything, so getting a good frame on a rideable platform was all I needed.
The Fuel EX 5 is what I got an am in love.
I agree the fork needs upgrading as well the brakes, they work ok but brakes are spongy, heavy and ugly.
I demoed the Fuel EX 8 with the Fox 34 and it was waaaay better then the 32mm Recon. I plan to grab a 140/150mm Pike and see which is better.
Great Article, thanks Mike!
It doesn't have to be this way. Case in point...look at what YT and even Norco have done with their 24" kids FS bikes. The YT model is freaking 1899$ and has an uber nice fork with Manitou's BEST damper and best airspring (dual chamber)! Plus a sick McLeod shock that's nicer than Fox's imo and the 4 position level is usable (flow or gnar modes are usable...not just lockout/climb. It doesn't stop there tho...the wheels are sick, all the touch points are nice and its got DHF/DHR2 tubeless rubber too. Brakes are ok I guess and the geo is dope. All this for a small market.
Norco's kids 24" FS 1899$ bike is a step down (same fork but missing the critical air spring, wheels and tires kind of suck, etc) but its still decent and even has a dropper with nice paddle remote. So...why can't some of these big, global corp companies do something similar to the YT bike (maybe a step down) for adults? I'm hoping Giants new budget OEM fork is a big step forward as that seems to be the big thing that's missing. Looking at a Giant Stance 1 for 1800$...the fork is hot garbage. Not even close to my kids 24" Manitou fork that's on that YT/Norco kids bike. MSRP on the kids fork is 450$, yeah its cheaper than it should be but that Recon on the giant sure ain't MSRP at 450$.
Even if you guys didn't mention the bike, it would have been really interesting to see the times of the sub 3k bikes vs. the 10k bike.
so much this, as much as i would like to support LBS (and i do for upgrades and repairs) there is literally 0 reason to shop there for new parts of bikes
i dont think there a single shop in like 50km around me that would have any decent mtbs in stock that are not super light XC or sub 300$ trash
At the same time, when someone on a beat up sub $3k bike blows past me while I'm riding my >$7k bike, I realize I'm doing something wrong.
The biggest downside I see with spending so much on a bike is that it's that much harder to justify keeping it when you buy a new one. It's not too hard to justify having a $7k bike that you ride 5 times a week, but what about 2 times a week? What about once every other week? I can confidently say that I'll be holding onto my hardtail for many years to come. I wouldn't be surprised if I never sold it. The still-worth-over-$4k full suspension bike, on the other hand... I don't know. I love it, and I don't want to sell it, but that's a lot of money to have depreciating in the garage once I have two or three other bikes that I ride more frequently.
Who knows, maybe I can convince myself to keep the hardtail as my forever bike and just get a dh bike every 2-3 years?
which is necessary for the evolution of bikes.
The technology used on bikes today,
in the frames, drivetrains, suspension, etc,
has been developed over decades,
with roots stretching back beyond internet.
I think it's unfair that direct to consumer brands
can select the same components
that a non-direct brand can, at the same price.
Trek could sell their bikes at the same prices as YT,
but only Trek would make money,
not 1000s of employees of Trek retailers
throughout the world.
DTC brands are benefiting from the blood, sweat, & grit
of retailers.
It's the way of the world (#youareonnativeland)
but that doesn't make it a good thing.
Honestly, I could be wrong, just my two cents,
as I watch these brands develop,
and retailers/brands struggle to adapt.
I look at previous years winners in reviews, then try to find them on sale. After all, I hope to have a bike about 3 years, so it doesn't have to be this year's model.
Both of us are about the same size, both wear flats. So we "wife swapped" on our weekly night ride a few weeks back. I was really expecting to be disappointed, and have MORE ammunition to convince him to get a newer bike. I have a 2017 E29 frame I was basically going to give him, he just needed to build it with old parts and scrounge some stuff up. By the end of the ride, I was convinced that he should save his money. Was it as good as my '18 E29? No, I like my bike better. Was it good? Yes, it was damn good. I had a ton of fun, and told him to save his money and just keep riding it. Only thing I told him I would change is I would go 11 speed with a 10-42 cassette (but not 12) instead of the 10 speed 11-36 he currently has. That's it.
"didn't affect the times" - So any bike can be ridden fast... meaning times are meaningless, but still got at least 2 mentions just in the preview article.
Dear @mikekazimer and @mikelevy please give us a privateer 161 review