Pinion, the German transmission maker, debuted a second-tier version of its 12-speed P1 bottom-bracket-mounted transmission. The C1.12 is lighter, slimmer and less expensive than its predecessor, and will be offered in twelve, nine, and six-speed configurations. Pinion says the C1's internals are the same as the more expensive P1 gearbox, and attributes much of its weight and cost savings to the C1's magnesium casing, which is stated to be pver 30-percent lighter than the P1 model's CNC-machined aluminum housing. Pinion co-founder and engineer Christoph Lermen would not yet quote a retail price for the new transmission, but made it clear that it would be appearing on mid-priced trail bikes with MSRP's in the neighborhood of $3000 USD.
That should be great news for gearbox hopefuls, because the high price of existing geared transmissions, like Pinion's 18 and 12-speed P1 models, has relegated their use to expensive, limited-production boutique bikes. The new C1.12 provides potential OEM customers with the ability to offer viable options to clanky chains and derailleurs at both high-end and mid-level price points. Scale-ability, being able to offer a gearbox platform at a variety of price options, has been a barrier for interested bike brands.
The 12-speed C1.12 will arrive first this autumn, followed by a nine-speed trail and a six-speed DH option. All will continue to feature Pinion's two-cable twist shifter, although Co-founder Christoph Lemen tells us that they are working on a trigger lever that will sync with the transmission's rotary shifting mechanism. The narrower C1 housing allowed Pinion to reduce the Q-factor width of 165 millimeters and offer chain lines as narrow as 50 millimeters. All of the Pinion-equipped bikes at Dirt Demo were fitted with Gates Carbon Drive cog belts, however conventional narrow-wide chainrings are also an option. Overall weight of the 12-speed C1.12 transmission is pegged at 2100 grams.
Christoph Lermen: Pinion Founder
I met with Christoph Lermen, one of Pinion's two founders and co-designer of the C1 transmission for a short question and answer session. Lermen was very animated while speaking about the new gearbox, saying that they had secured a number of OEM bike makers who will be spec'ing C-series transmissions on production models for the coming 2017 season.
RC: What type of bicycles should we expect to see the new C1.12 transmissions on next year?
Christoph: Mainly, trekking bicycles - with fenders and lights. Not the kind of bicycles you see very often in the US. We also have customers who will be using them on plus and fat-bikes. We, of course, also will see the C-series gearboxes on mountain bikes.
RC: I understand that the internals are the same between the high-end P12 transmission and the less expensive C-series. Where did the savings come from? Christoph: We industrialized most of the components. By this, I mean that we designed most of the parts to be manufactured more effectively and in larger quantities. For instance: the P-line casings begin as a large block of aluminum and then we machine away over eighty percent of that metal to make the final parts. Of course, all of those chips become recycled and are again melted to be used for something, but you can see that this is an expensive way to make the parts. We cast the C1 casings, which is faster and much less costly. Also, we use automakers to produce the gears and shafts. Those must be made in large quantities, because, as you can imagine, they are used to making thousands of parts and we can only buy so many. The C-line has been well-accepted by our OEM customers, so that has helped us to increase our orders.
RC: How much weight savings did you achieve from the switch to magnesium?Christoph: The magnesium casings are 33-percent lighter than the aluminum casings. We made them more compact, so there is also a reduction in the Q-factor. This also means that the C-line does not have room enough for the 18-speed gears. We only offer the twelve, nine and six-speed gears - which also saves some weight.
RC: How complicated is the Pinion gearbox to work on?Christoph: It is actually very easy to assemble. We counted the parts needed for Shimano's Alfine eight-speed hub transmission and also ours, and we use far less parts. More important, is that our gearbox is designed much simpler, so it is not so hard to put together.
Specifications:• Construction: Magnesium housing with bash protection.
• Gear options: 12, 9 and 6-speed
• Compatibility: Pinion mount interface only
• Final drive: Narrow-wide or Gates Carbon Drive sprocket
• Shifter: Twist-grip indexing
• Crankset Pinion aluminum crank arms
• MSRP: TBD
• Contact:
Pinion
- Hi, we are very happy to see you so stoked. How about you give us money and we can sell you one
- Naaaah, I think I will see how the technology will develop and wait until prices will go down...
Pinkbike enthusiasm: Already experienced by DVO Suspension.
I will never forget it. It was one a lesson in life.
Or tires - for me, it just seems like it is time to have some sort of more "hi-tech" material to be in contact with the ground, not just pretty much regular rubber...
www.pinkbike.com/news/zerode-taniwha.html
I also have an Emerald, best focking DH fork out period! Oh yeah I bought on a used Kona Supreme Operator for cheap! It impresses me everytine I ride it!
Do yourself a favor and pick one up, and stop acting like a know it all..
@Paulski1966 - so what you are basically saying Öhlins or EXT are worthless? Because what? They don't match the expenditure of a random guy on the internet? What is your point of reference? A student? Guy with an Aston Martin? To whom exactly is DVO overpriced?
- says every Joey who doesn't concept, design, build, make, design, and/or engineer things for a living.
If you do, or have done any of those things for a living, think about the time(s) that some Joey walked up to you and said "it can't be that hard" without knowing the complexity of what you were working on...
I really dont undestand the sacralistic hype they actually do exist if you love them so much they are not a thing of the future. today is posible to build a bike aroud one.
You sound so mature cursing out a stranger hiding behind a keyboard
I just hope they get that trigger shifter sorted out soon; that seems to be their biggest problem in the eyes of the customer. I wish I understood why it was taking so long. Two cables shouldn't make it that much more complicated.
The weight was surprisingly low, lighter than a conventional chain system.
Then you add the unsprung mass benefit and the silence of the bike, my next DH bike will be gearbox for sure.
I guess they are priced a bit high, but in my opinion, they are much better and lighter than Pinion with a simpler design.
If people can have fun riding 50lb e-bikes, they aren't going to notice the 300g weight penalty this costs.
These new gearboxes will add 1800g/3.97lbs to 2100g/4.63lbs, but as you pointed out, a gearbox also negates the need for a cassette and bottom bracket. You'll still need a shifter, chainring, rear cog, cranks, and some sort of chain tension device to allow for chain growth as the suspension compresses (see the Zerode Taniwha for example). Lets assume the chain tension device weighs half as much as a rear derailleur. So if your cassette weighs 350g, your derailleir is 300g, and BB is 100g, then you save 350g + 150g + 100g or 600g and add 1800-2100g for the gearbox. You can probably also save a little weight by using a smaller chain ring, but you're not entirely eliminating the rear cassette because you still need one small cog so I think it mostly evens out in that regard. The gearbox also requires an extra shifter cable, but that's probably pretty negligible as well. I don't know how to account for potential differences in frame weight, but I'm guessing that's also not that significant. That means you're looking at adding 1200g/2.65lbs (6 speed) to 1500g/3.31lbs (12 speed) to your build bike by switching to a gearbox drivetrain. Obviously this is still a very rough estimate.
Pinion P1.18 complete system:
Gearbox 3 2698,0 g
Twist shifter 95,0 g
Crank arms „CNC“ 175 mm 4 434,5 g
Chain tensioner 5 122,0 g
Chain ring 30t 51,0 g
Rear sprocket 21t 29,0 g
Sram Chain 260g
Total weight 3.69 Kg
Sram Eagle x01
Derailleur 276g
Casset 354g
Shifter 124g
Chain 260g
crankset with 30t sprocket 520g
gxp pressfit ~100g
1.634 Kg
That means a pinion set up would be an additional 4.4 lbs or 2Kg in comparison to an X01 Eagle!!!!
Oh, & that's the old pinion, with a 2700g gearbox. go to the model most people here would pick, the 1.9, which still has more range than eagle, & you've shaved that 1300g penalty down to 600g.
That's less than the difference between a set of DH tires & a set of EXO tires.
XT M8000
Derailleur 280g
cranks with sprocket 700g
shifter 126g
cassette 430g
chain 257g
bb ~ 77g
Total weight 1.87 Kg
Pinion 1.9:
Gearbox 2350,0 g
Rotary shifter 95,0 g
Crank arms „CNC“ 175 mm 434,5 g
Chain tensioner (Federstärke: 2,5 mm) 122,0 g
Chain ring 24t 37,5 g
Gearbox Spider 104 mm 40,0 g
Rear sprocket 21t 29,0 g
Sram Chain 260g
Total Weight 3.367kg
Thats a difference of about 1.5 Kg ~3.3 Lbs
so, instead of arguing about about 2lbs-3lbs (a realistic number, compare the new, lighter unit, to a group-set people actually run, not Eagle), hit the squat rack once a week and it won't make a lick of a difference on your daily rides. heck, it will probably improve how your suspension works (traction) and less time spent on buying a new cassette each season (something I do) or tuning up the drivetrain or cleaning it. to me, it would be awesome.
So again, I believe this is what we need. A viable, somewhat cheap gearbox option. We have the option to run eagle already (if we're dentists), this is the direction a lot of us daily riders want.
edit, I see the comparo to XT is about 3lbs. Not bad, and I'll take it. It means better suspension action (physics yo!), and a longer lasting setup. Totally worth it imo.
If you're an XC guy, this doesn't matter.
If you're a gravity guy, this DOES MATTER! The ability to deal with something that would give dirt roadies fits is exactly what separates a good gravity oriented bike from a bad one.
Thinking of weight in absolute terms should be dated in this day and age. WHERE the weight is on a bike counts for a great deal.
So, with the setup most bike brands are likely to ACTUALLY BUILD, not @bonedogs obsession with how much a chain & tensioner weight proves him right, it's about 600g. or, as I said, the difference in weight between DH tires & EXO tires(which is a lie. actually, the difference between a pair of HR2 DH 2.4 & EXO 2.4 is 780g. this is lighter than putting DH tires on your bike. significantly.)
Oh, & he straight up lied about the gearbox weight. none of the models above weigh more than 2100g, but he shows a weight of 2350.
It'll also clash with the frame, even in black.
@WAKIdesigns: you got me backwards: I want someone to test a dirty conventional drivetrain.
As long as the gearbox is sealed, I don't see much point in testing how it preforms after you've ridden through the mud, because the answer will be "exactly the same."
Even in the worst case scenario - max crosschaining, smallest sprocket, it is still more efficient than a gearbox. But not that much that it matters in my opinion.
www.friction-facts.com/test-results/free-dirty-chain-test
As I wrote: XC racing recreational - no way, AM - if you really want, Enduro racing - no way, DH/Park - absolutely yes. E-bikes - the first rule of E-bikes, you don't talk about E-bikes on Pinkbike...
* Better suspension performance
* Greater reliability!!!!!!! Breaking a dérailleur hanger or the dérailleur itself halfway into a stage would be disastrous!
* Do you really need the lesser weight and greater efficiency of a dérailleur for a liason?
And what's the difference between AM and Enduro anyway?
www.friction-facts.com/media/wysiwyg/Cross_Test.pdf
At it's worst, it's testing brand new chains that have had 5 dirty races on them. Who runs a chain for 5 rides? They were also cleaned & relubed after every ride, another thing many riders don't do(how many riders do you know who ignore the chain until it makes noise? I barely pay more attention than that, personally) Even then their data shows that a cleaned & relubed chain, after one race, still has more friction than the brand new one.
I might replace a chain once a year. probably more like 2. I don't lube more than about once a month (partly because Purple Extreme is awesome, but still.) I don't do their "Ultrafast Process" on my new chain, whatever that is.
When I relube, I don't
"For Part 3, the cleaning and relubing, the six chains were submersed in a container of solvent and aggressively agitated. They were then transferred to an ultrasonic cleaner and US’d for 10 minutes
submersed in lacquer thinner, then flipped for an additional 10 minutes of US cleaning. The chains were then transferred and submersed in a bath of Rock-n-Roll Gold lube in a US machine for a total of 20 minutes; 10 minutes on one side then flipped for another 10 minutes."
Nor should I, because the grease the manufacturer pre-impregnates a modern chain with is better for long-term lubrication & keeping water out than any chain lube, which is why anyone who isn't racing at this level should stay away from using solvents on their chain at all.
Really, the only thing I can take away from this article is that: a chain that has been professionally setup for high efficiency, at the cost of lifespan, has about a 5w efficiency loss, that even cleaning & relubing every ride, than number can go up to 12w fairly quickly, & that most of us are probably starting from 8-10w or worse with a brand new chain, & the number goes down from there.
In a following article they compare a dry chain vs lubed one and the difference is enormous. Like 4x. So if a chain is making grinding, squeaking noises it cost's you big time. Don't bother with the cleaning, just put some lube/oil whatever every month or so and you're golden.
The point I was making about the grinding, squeaking chain is that if at least half of all riders generally wait that long(& make no mistake, if the efficiency loss was noticeable in a "seat of the pants" way, people wouldn't) that the lower efficiency of a gearbox isn't going to be the deal breaker some people make it out to be.
But all in all, to me, it is not a matter of raw facts that makes gearboxes such a subject of scepticism and denial. It is the matter of image. Gearboxes in miuntain bikes are the electric cars of MTB. Prius, other hybrids (or that shitty beyond belief Volvo C30 Electric I drove last Tuesday) have never turned any sceptic into a believer. But then you show them McLaren P1 and people get really curious. Then you show them more and more Teslas popping up and woooooow. Most current gearbox bikes just cannot compete in WOW department with standard bikes. Those Nicolais or handmade hipster HTs and Fatbikes are ugly as fk, they are the Priuses. Necessary evil. Zerode is not really punching through like Musks electric sport car... But the Tanihwa... Now we are talking. Give us more of these genuinely beatiful bikes and people will go "I want that!". If Spec would release the latest S-Works demo as a gearbox bike or these amazing V10s with World Champs would have gearboxes smoothly incorporated into the carbon front triangle, people would be banging on SRAMs and Shimano doors like crazy.
Make great looking gearboxed bikes and the "trend" will kick off like nothing else in recent years.
Nicolais being ugly is your opinion. Nothing more. I think they look good in their teutonic way and I'm a known designer with product that sells. So it's moot, really. But I see the point about it being swoopy and carbon in order to sell. Teslas are a dime a dozen here and kinda boring without any real leading edge tech (as much as they want to hype it, it's old tech other than the motor and Volvo is going to smash them a new one in 2018 ), but that P1 though, that's cool. Kinda reminds me of a Nicolai.. ahahahaha
The cog is black for aesthetics? Are you sure about that? Because it's incorrect. it's a machined cromoly 11t cog cluster with aluminum 50t cog. This means the main cluster is gold because it's a TiN coating, and the 50T cog being aluminum, it's hard anodized black (type 3 ano) for wear and corrosion resistance. So, it's literally entirely based on engineering and, chemicals. hahaha.
this could have been a productive conversation, as you were given respect. with your latest response you just prove you don't know what you're talking about. ignorance at it's best. Stick to the doodles.
I call it a day. No this conversation couldn't be fruitful, since we both behaved like two teenage cocks trying to outbluff each other, where the only way to win is not to fight at all.
I respect Nicolai for what they do, I really don't like their Steam Punk looks, but there's enough sun for everyone.
I am reiterating the core of my point that as soon as Yeti-like bike (like Zerode Tainwha) comes with a gearbox the curiosity of mainstream will be brought to such drivetrain solution.
You have a big penis, fantadtic seed, you satisfy women with it, your father is proud of you, your kids will be amazing because you will steer them in the right way, you could win a street fight, you are a hero. I'm a piece of sht of a troll, you could easily beat me up and you ride faster than me. I'm depressed mommy boy I wish I were you. Honestly, I am a load of sht and would love to have you as a best friend and mentor if we lived close to each other. My bike does look terrible, oh and that raw carbon? Oooh, like a custom spoiler of 1996 BMW M3 with 3M carbon like vinyl on it. Whaaat was I thinking?! I honestly thought I am making the best choice from each possible perspective!
I'm depressed really... Haven't achieved anything in life. Unlike you.
That said, Geometron (Chris Porter), GT (Fury), Mondraker, and Cesar Rojo have been hard at work advancing bike geometry. At least Mondraker, GT, and Unno will make a forward geo bike that's more pleasing to the eye.
Evenstill, I like the look of the Ion GPi.
I'm currently waiting for feeback on their geo numbers.
But yeah... free bump for Pergrine.
www.pinkbike.com/u/Peregrinebikes
With the $$$ we pay to get light bikes, I don't see why I would want replace the now-reliable derailleur for a heavy gearbox.
2. I am not an engineer but is it POSSIBLE to design a gear box that can go on existing frames?
3. What are the major drawbacks and issues likely with gear boxes? (ex with existing drivetrains: bend hangers, blown up derailleurs, bent rings, breaking of chain, not a wide enough range of gears with 1x, etc.)
2. Truvativ did essentially a two-speed gearbox with the Hammerschmidt. But once you get into more gears, and assuming you're ruling out internally geared hubs, I'm not sure where you'd put the mechanism on a bike with a standard BB shell. I guess you could run two chains up to something in the front triangle...but at that point you've thoroughly defeated the purpose of the gearbox. Best to wait til your frame expires.
3.
a. Weight, currently;
b. Price, currently;
c. Need two cables since there's no return spring (although somebody elsewhere pointed out that there could be?)
d. Difficult to service, especially trailside;
e. Possibly more difficult to jury-rig/limp home if it does fail out in the sticks;
f. The Pinion design puts it right in the way of impact if you case onto a rock or something (also leading to more weight because it has to be burly);
g. Gotta replace the whole thing at once if it fails;
h. Much more difficult to swap out gearing if you are trying to optimize for terrain (as racers do) or you discover you don't like the spread you have;
i. More coasting friction; the chain/belt is moving all the time since freewheeling happens in the gearbox (unless you use a freewheeling hub).
Those are off the top of my head. a. and b. are obviously things that can be worked on, as demonstrated by Pinion already. c. is not that much of an issue, really, just a difference. d. through g. are less of a concern if you don't maintain your own bikes. h. is mostly an issue for XC/enduro racers, who frequently swap at least chainrings to get the best possible gearing for individual races. i. is an issue for any kind of racer, but especially gravity types who coast a lot. A freewheeling hub does fix that problem, but I believe you lose the ability to shift without pedaling, which is one of the big advantages of a gearbox (although I could be wrong about that, and even if that's the case currently, it might be easier to work around than with a chain and cogs). So it's all about picking advantages and disadvantages that suit your needs and preferences. Not that PinkBike comments are the place for that kind of logic.... #therecanbeonlyonerightanswer
3a-c. nail on head, currently
3d-e. possible more difficult but theoretically more durable. You could also make the argument when changing from a rigid bike to any type of suspension. to get into PB sassy pants mode: "I think we all agree suspension is a good thing"
3f. There is a possibility of a bashguard. I know they are not popular but they are essential for where i ride.
3g. pretty much the same this with a rear derailleur.
3h. possibly - would depend on the design i imagine. old/crappy 3x drivetrain (i know now one uses them any more but hear me out), crappy ones are bolted together, more expensive ones allow you to swap out.
3i. I've never ridden a gear box but I imagine i would be totally ok with not being able to shift unless pedaling to reduce/eliminate coasting friction as pedal shifting is the current method.
Also chain security and no slippage when you shift if you are DH'ing, just beautiful. Well worth the weight gain. You cannot feel the weight while riding, only when you get it in the air. But because the weight is so low and centered, very easy to adjust to.
Check our page out here. We have a DH model and Enduro model. These are the deal. I would never go back no matter how good you think your derailleur is.
www.magnomatics.com
Any chance of this gear box making it's way to the Nicolai Ion GPi?
Anyone have a good comparison on what this weighs compared to a traditional derailleur system?
As a side note, I've wondered if they have considered clutching each gear set on the output end to reduce losses (still constant mesh but only one set engaged at a time). I'm sure it would be more complicated/ costly, but might get rid of the biggest complaint I've heard so far.
Pinion could help ease the transmission by making cheap "dummy" cases that go in the spot where their transmission goes, and holds a traditional bottom bracket. That way bike makers could slowly start releasing a few compatible frames that could still be sold as traditional drivetrain bikes. Hopefully my next bike has a C1.12.
Maybe we'll see both a standard and g-box Enduro, Slash or Capra for model year 2018 or 2019?
Also, I wonder what the belt maintenance is like? How would mud and debris affect the drive train?
Don't give up Pinion. Thank you for your dedication & service. We need this.
I think its well worth the extra 1.5lbs or so, especially down low, and really bike weight barley affects performance, so count me in! looks brilliant! Can't freaking wait!
www.pinkbike.com/news/sram-gx-drivetrain-review-2015.html
That includes cranks though. The article isn't exactly clear as to whether or not the 2100g figure includes Pinyon's cranks.
Beyond the other parts not accounted for (Bottom bracket, chainring), it looks like the gearbox requires less frame material around the bottom bracket. I doubt you're going to save enough weight on the frame to achieve parity with a traditional drivetrain, but it might be close enough that the weight increase isn't significant.
Either way, shame they don't fall in line with one of the better mainstream standards. Any options to change/customize this?
In lab environment, you may show that the gearbox is 95/96% efficient to a chain around two sprockets, but in the real world, there is much much much much more at play.
...you're f*cking kidding.
Very interesting read, but just not sure who the target audience is?
www.tune.de/en/produkt/black-foot-isis
That's insane, it's 280lbs on a 175mm crank.
German overengineering, you did it right.
#humourfail
Have another look.
I especially like this one www.bicycle-junkies.com/images/pinion-p18/pinion-p1-18.png
(if you're too lazy to have a look at the links, I'lllet you know that all the chain rings on the pinion 'box are attached to the cranks)
This video shows the chainring running at a different speed from the crank and, more crucially, being in place with the right crank not on the box. If the chainring was attached to the crank this wouldn't be possible.
Lets assume that you have a 9-tooth small sprocket. To get 500% you need to have a 55.555 tooth large sprocket (lets call it 55 for shits n giggles). Now you want that spead over another four gears, so evenly spaced you'd end up with 9T - 18T - 27T - 36T - 44T - 55T. I invite you to remove all your cassette rings between 9 and 18T, and between 18 and 27T and then tell me how lovely that feels to ride, on your so not sucky trails where apparently you don't need to establish cadence, which would mean never pedaling at all, considering even 1 revolution per minute is a cadence...infact even a quarter revolution per minute is still a cadence...
Cadence and power meters and micro optimizations is for roadies and idiots.