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The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly: Pinkbike Editors' Favorite Clipless Shoes

Nov 10, 2023
by Matt Beer  
Finding the right mountain bike equipment can sometimes be a long process since there are so many factors that go into choosing a product. That becomes even more personal when you narrow it down to the touchpoints on the bike due to physiological differences between riders.

There's a sea of clipless footwear out there and choosing the right pair is undoubtedly overwhelming. Not only are fit and function critical, but they’ll need to mesh well with your preferred pedal too. Is the shoe too narrow? Can the cleats move back far enough for my ideal foot position? How do the pedal pins interact with the sole of the shoe? These are all common questions you can’t always figure out at first glance.

I'm no shoe fashionista - more of an advocate for a product's functionality above all else - but if I counted up the pairs of bike shoes I've used in the past year, the number would be alarming. Thankfully, I’m not alone. Myself and the other tech editors here at Pinkbike get to sample excellent MTB footwear, and some we'd rather never step foot in again, so here’s a sample of what we’ve been loving so far.




Fox Union BOA

One of my favorite clipless shoes for all types of riding lately (mountain biking to be more precise) has been Fox’s Union BOA. These are the premium shoes in the model family which cost $249.95 USD. They use two fast-tensioning dials but there's a lace option available for less money, and a flat pedal version too.

Half sizing exists from 41 to 46 and there are a multitude of colorways. Included in the price are two sets of arch supports; high and low. In terms of width, they land slightly on the narrow side, but actually run a bit longer than expected - typically I use a size 41.5 EUR/9 US, but had to drop down to a 41.5/8.5.
Matt Beer

Position: Tech Editor & dishwasher re-organizer
Shoe size: 42
Ideal shoe features: Ankle gaiter, moderate toe protection, no heel lift
Favorite Clipless Shoes: Fox Union BOA

Fox Union BOA

Fox Union BOA
Fox Union BOA

Over the past six months, I’ve used these with both Crankbrother Mallet DH pedals, as well as the Time Special 12. For the Mallets, I added the cleat spacer and wound the pins up with 3mm exposed. As for the positioning, there’s plenty of real estate to move the cleat well behind the ball of the foot - more than any clipless shoe I’ve tried in the past.

They’ve held up impeccably thanks to the one-piece TPU upper construction - even the lamination between the rubber sole and shank has remained fully attached. On my left forward foot, I’ve noticed that my left shoe tends to rub on the crank arm which usually wears the seam at the top of the cuff. Here, the inside of the Union shoe is slightly higher than the outside edge to avoid that problem but still allows for full dexterity. Another bonus is that the toe cap provides great protection against impacts. I’ve experienced times when the smooth finish glanced off rocks and roots, rather than hanging up. Impressively, the breathability isn’t compromised by the protection or durability either.

I want to clarify that these are performance shoes with a stiff sole and a deep heel cup that locks your foot in. That makes them supreme for control but that doesn't make them the best option for rides that involve hike-a-bikes. With that said, they’re not plastic disco slippers and the rubber sole grips well when you need them to, even in cold weather on slimy rocks.

I'd also love to see a light, knit gaiter around the opening to keep debris out, similar to what Five Ten and Fizik offer to take their performance up to a 10/10.



photo

Crankbrothers' Mallet Boa shoes have been my favorites for the last few years, thanks to their just-right stiffness and excellent fit for my flat, medium-width, size 45 feet. The velcro strap / BOA dial combo works very well - I'm able to get them nice and snug without losing circulation, and it's easy to adjust them on the fly. If I had one request, I wouldn't mind if there was a bit more coverage around the inner ankle - the previous Shimano ME7 was one of my favorite shoes for that reason.

They also look, well, fairly normal, which isn't always the case with cycling shoes. I don't usually get too hung up on the appearance of riding shoes, but it's nice to have a pair that doesn't draw any odd looks if I go into a gas station to stock up on some mid-ride snacks.
Mike Kazimer

Position: Cycling Gear Director, hates setting up new cleats
Shoe size: 45 EU, 11 US
Ideal shoe features: Coverage over inner ankle, medium sole stiffness, easy adjustments
Favorite Clipless Shoes: Mallet BOA Clip-In

photo

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The pair shown here is coming up on three years old, and the hard miles are starting to show. The toe box is scuffed up and peeling a little from countless rock encounters, and the stitching has come undone near the ankle on my right foot from rubbing against the crank (I ride left foot forward). Still, they've held up very well considering just how many hours I've worn them. At $200 they're not the cheapest, but I'd say the performance lives up to the price in this case.

Lately, I've been spending more time with the Fox Union shoes that Matt chose as his pick, but in a toe-to-toe battle I still prefer the Mallets. The Unions are stiffer, but the cuff at the front of the ankle is a little short, and I seem to always end up with pebbles in my shoes with them.

As for cleat positioning, my cleats are usually set in the middle / rear position, and on these shoes they ended up a little forward of what Crankbrothers indicates as the 'DH race zone'. The cleats shown are for Hope's Union TC pedals, which have also earned their place on my list of favorites.



photo

Farewell, sweet prince. The Shimano ME7 was a consistent staple of their shoe lineup for a few years, and I'm sure I'm far from the only person who found them to be a perfect all-rounder when it came to comfort, durability, and performance. They weren't cheap, but I've had this pair for about 2 years of daily use, bikepacking trips, and more than enough hike-a-bike. While there are some signs of use here and there, they've still got plenty of life left, and will continue to be a go to for a while now. Despite the Stormtrooper aesthetic, they've proven to be an ideal shoe for me, and I'm a bit sad to see them go.
Dario DiGiulio

Position: Tech Editor, wishes he could just ride in Crocs
Shoe size: 45/46 EU, 11.5 US
Ideal shoe features: Firm sole, comfortable toebox, easy on/off
Favorite Clipless Shoes: Shimano ME7

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Admittedly, a big part of why I like these so much is how easy they are to get on and off. While I'm proud to say that I know how to tie my shoes, I try to avoid doing so when it comes to bike shoes. Laces are nice for dialing in fit, but speed laces like the ones featured on the ME7 feel like an evolution of the technology. Underneath that lace flap is a simple drawcord, which I adjusted once and have left closed ever since, partly due to the velcro wearing out on that flap with prior pairs I'd owned.

The plastic ratchet mechanism is the best fit-adjuster I've used on a shoe yet, and is far more durable than Boa dials. The Michelin lugged sole is grippy on roots, rocks, and pedals in the event of a mid-move dab. The soccer cleat-like lugs are excellent in steep hikes, which is pretty much the only time I find myself on a long walk in clipless shoes.

Cleat-wise, I adhere to the slam-slam method, which is where you slide them all the way to the bottom of the cleat channel, and all the way outboard, giving the narrowest q-factor (width between feet, essentially), and the most mid-foot pedal placement. This also makes setting up new cleats quite easy. I've recently switched over to Crank Brothers pedals, and find that the ME7 meshes perfectly with the Mallet E platform, with zero cleat spacers needed.

As these glorious shoes have been phased out of the Shimano master plan, I've acquired a new pair of the GE9 shoes, which are meant to be the closest replacement in the gravity shoe lineup. Stay tuned on my long-term thoughts on those.



photo

I can't say I've decided on the ideal riding shoe at the moment, but the Crank Brothers Mallet BOA is my current go-to. I find them pretty comfortable, easy to tighten up to the right fit, and easy to locate the pedal mechanism with my choice of pedals - Crank Brothers Mallet DH.

At 1,010 grams in my size (12US/46EU/11UK), they're not the lightest, but not heavy either; they're not especially stiff, but not overly flexy. A good all-rounder for trail, enduro and DH riding. They're also relatively comfy for walking in.
Seb Stott

Position: Tech editor, hates flat pedals
Shoe size: 46
Favorite Clipless Shoes: Mallet BOA Clip-In

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The Mallet DH shoe has an extra long cleat zone with the rearward part marked as the "race zone" in red.
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The Mallet E (right) doesn't have the race zone, but still allows the cleat to go far enough back for me.

I did need to install another cleat spacer under the pre-installed cleats to get them to engage the Mallet DH pedals easily. This could be fixed by winding in the pedal pins, but since I run multiple sets of pedals, it was much easier to add the extra spacer. This approach also offers more grip when riding out a section clipped out. In these situations, the combination of the Mallet DH pedal and shoe allows me to crack on regardless, patiently waiting for a smooth section to calmly clip back in.





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As an uninhibited youth I gladly took to clipless pedals, and body slamming through cobble-stoned turns on Cannock Chase's man-made trails seemed like part and parcel with what I thought mountain biking was. I didn't know cycling was meant to be fun, and had my brain addled by 240 pixel videos of Lance Armstrong riding across a field in France. I got into mountain biking without a big group of friends teaching me the ropes and I thought being near locked into your bike was just par for the course.

Henry Quiney

Position: Bit of everything
Shoe size: 48 EU, 17,000 US
Ideal shoe features: Not too wide, medium stiff sole and far back cleats
Favorite Clipless Shoes: Mallet Lace Clip-In
After a while, though, it grew somewhat tedious, and I found out that cycling was indeed meant to be enjoyed. I got some very cool Five Ten Red Barons and called it day, forgetting about clipping in for a few years.

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I came and went, but largely I could never really get a setup that I really enjoyed for clipless. That was until I found the sweet spot of the Crankbrothers interface, pointing my slammed-rearward cleats to my big toe and running the pins all the way in. It's a kind of coward's-clipless, because for me it's basically like riding flat pedals with a bit more security. I often think being clipped in is a bit like using Grammarly before sending an email. It doesn't make you a better rider, but actually smooths out your rough edges to make your actions at least barely comprehensible, and that's what I like about this current setup. It lets me move and feel free, and getting in and out is on par with placing my foot on a flat.

The Mallets aren't particularly stiff - and I love them for it. Also, the laces hide the fact that my feet are very narrow. Normally with straps or dials, it can mean I have a massive leftover velcro strap or a distorted twisted shoe. The Mallet Lace's look good, even with my Sideshow-Bob-shaped feet.




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232 Comments
  • 61 3
 Love my ME7's. Been in them for years as well. The draw-lace system laces started fraying pretty badly so I replaced them earlier this summer with a set of the Salomon quick laces (some folks in another thread here recommended them - thanks!), and they're basically brand new again. Things are tanks.
  • 4 0
 Areed. I’m getting another pair whilst they are still around for when the current ones finally die
  • 2 1
 Thanks for mentioning the Salmon quick laces. Going to check them out. Pretty bummed that Shimano is discontinuing these. Hope to find another pair for future use.
  • 6 0
 Cambria has them half off retail and an additional 15% off with free shipping
  • 1 0
 This is exactly what I have done in the past with my AM9 riding shoes. Wore through the shimano quick laces, installed the Salomon quick laces (which I found held much better also) and wore my AM9 shoes out to the point they were falling apart after over 4 years of very heavy abuse. Now on the new AM9's and very happy with the changes they have made to the new model.
  • 3 0
 Greetings fellow men of taste. Stock up on those ME7s if you've got big feet... Shimano is leaning way out of anything above a 48 in their new lineup. I'm a 50.
  • 2 0
 Sad to see the ME7 discontinued as well. Bought a new set to have on closeout from REI.
  • 3 0
 I wish shimano never discontinued the AM45. Best riding shoe of all time IMO, would be even better with some boa closures
  • 1 0
 am9 FTW! Thanks - I will look for those Salomon laces!
  • 1 2
 Velcro is king. Though not welcome to this party, Specialized Recon 1.0 is the best ever. I'd consider skate style shoe if they made an all velcro. Lose a buckle (boa) on a rock or get laced in the cranks once and you'll turn.
  • 1 0
 Got a pair of ME7's 2yr ago to replace MP66's that lasted for ages. Originally for bad weather in particular but wore them year round and didn't use the AM5's. Disappointingly the sole separated next to the cleats so not really impressed by the durability.

Really liked them, considered to get another pair but settled for AM9s in the end. Velcro strap is great as well, damaged already twice such ratchet thing on a rock (1x ME7, 1x XC bla bla)..
  • 1 0
 ME7's rule! I hope Shimano doesn't face plant on the replacement!!! Frown
  • 1 0
 @cxfahrer: would love to ride ME7s, but my feet are too wide, so the AM9 it is!
  • 1 0
 @shunji180: All of these shimano shoes mentioned here have big velcro covers over the quick laces. There is no chance for the laces to get caught in the pedals. If the laces were to break on a ride you still have the velcro flaps to keep the shoes on your feet. We are velcro lovers too
  • 1 0
 @gnarnaimo: Until the velcro on the flap wears out, as it has done on my AM901s
  • 1 0
 @boozed: I suppose, but that never happened to my AM901s, or my partners. Wore through the sole from hike a biking over the years, everything else aside from the quick laces was solid.
  • 1 0
 @moturner: Dude, thanks for the heads up! Just ordered some.
  • 1 1
 @moturner: thanks. Just bought a pair for backup. Under $100 delivered is cheap for the best clipless shoes.
  • 2 0
 @KolaPanda: You are damn right, best shoe I've ever had.
  • 1 0
 @chrismac70: Three years in on my ME7s with a brand new pair on the shelf for when, if ever, the original pair wears out. I'm set for life.
  • 1 0
 Didnt know ME7's were dropped. Been my go-to for all off road riding for years. May have to pick up a pair while I can as suggested!
  • 1 0
 Yup ME7s have been faithful and have little desire to upgrade save for the really hot summer days. Hope the new models drop a few grams and keep up the durability.
  • 1 0
 @KolaPanda: we call them the orthopedic shoes. These are my go to shoes for cold weather. I only wish they had a more aggressive sole for hiking up loose or wet trails.
  • 1 0
 @KolaPanda: The AM45 were super heavy, took absolutely forever to dry, and I couldn't run the cleat as far back as I wanted. Loved how they fit tho.
  • 61 4
 The ugly, the ugly, the ugly, the ugly and the ugly
  • 11 4
 Seriously. Why are most mtb shoes so ugly these days? And why do so many of them look like skater shoes?
  • 8 1
 @mographer: Why are they ugly? You answered your own question — because they are all designed to look like skater shoes or orthotics for old men. I’ve given up hope that the design will change. It’s like a ski boot — it’s just what they are.
  • 25 0
 @mographer: The fact that they all look the same tells me that the function dictates the form at this point. Also, men's fashion is boring as hell in general
  • 5 3
 @torontomtb: Yeah, that’s kind of what I mean. Ski boots all look like ski boots, because that’s what ski boots gotta look like to do what ski boots need to do. I’m still surprised they can’t look a little more like hiking shoes than skate shoes, but it is what it is.
  • 49 2
 I'm just curious what people would LIKE bike shoes to look like? A set of fresh, white, new balances that your dad uses for grilling? Whatever those fugly Kanye shoes were? Air Jordan's for some reason?
  • 10 11
 @ratedgg13: A little less like Frankenstein’s orthotics, and maybe more like hiking shoes, as I mentioned? And you better believe I’d ride the F out of some Air Jordan 1 bike shoes.
  • 11 1
 @ratedgg13: the same question always ask, and every answer is always a shoe that I think looks just as ugly or uglier.
  • 11 2
 @ratedgg13: seriously, they’re shoes..
  • 5 1
 @RonSauce: I think the 5.10 Trail Crosses are a step in the right direction (for the kind of riding I typically do).

I would like some more color choices from them.

I thought the 5-tennies approach shoes were cool too and, while not terribly robust, worked great for light to medium duty riding.

Edit --
I just looked and turns out, current Trail Crosses are pretty dope:
www.adidas.com/us/five-ten-trailcross-xt-shoes/HQ3563.html

That's not a look for everyone. But it is different, I can confirm that the shoe works as expected and is much better to walk in than e.g., a Free Rider Pro.
  • 3 2
 @TheR: agreed, something more like an actual athletic shoe. I had a pair of Nike clipless shoes back in the day that looked really good. They were more of an xc type shoes, but they looked cool and not like Grandpa’s Walmart shoe.
  • 16 1
 How many shoe adds have you seen since 2010-ish that had copy to the effect of ‘and you won’t look out of place after your ride at the pub’? A decade-plus of marketing to some dudebro fantasy of walking into a bar in the clothes you just wore riding and not looking out of place among all the the other dorks. Chamois time is over. Pack a towel, change your gross clothes. This means you, everyone at gestalt haus in fairfax, california
  • 4 1
 @Snfoilhat: ahahahaha no shit! It takes me about three minutes to fully costume change back into civilian clothes, even with knee pads under long pants…it’s a bonus of the weather in the northwest I guess—there’s no thought of keeping this mess on…

And, as always: I really want to see what these mountain bikers wear for their perfect clothes lololol
  • 4 1
 @pargolf8: 100%. I don’t get what the big deal is. I don’t think I’ve ever consciously looked at someones shoes when riding (trail or DH) and made any sort of judgement regarding aesthetics. If it fits well, provides protection, lasts long and I can clip in/out without dying, enough said.
  • 1 1
 hahahahahaha
  • 8 1
 @mographer: Just curious. What do you think they should look like? What mtb shoes do you like the look of? Personally, I like the skater look of the shoes.
  • 1 1
 @pmhobson: yo, those ARE actually sick
  • 1 0
 @Will762: I’ve had a low top and then mid top pair.

I switched to mid top since the low tops were the most effectively rock, dirt, and pine needle collection system humankind has ever devised. That said, if the mid top wasn’t available, I’d still rock the low tops knowing I’d have to dump them out periodically.

I like the ventilation even in the winter since moisture gets out of the shoe so much better.
  • 4 8
flag Hayek (Nov 10, 2023 at 11:50) (Below Threshold)
 @Snfoilhat: I’ve never understood that marketing copy. Maybe it’s a function of living in mountains, but I’ve never once even considered what I’m wearing when I walk into a bar/restaurant after riding or skiing, nor have I ever wanted that apparel to blend in with civilian clothes. I happily go sit down and eat in whatever I’m wearing (including spandex during big XC or gravel rides). Design apparel for the intended function, not to blend in somewhere it doesn’t belong.
  • 9 2
 @Hayek: Dude! Take your smelly ass home and shower!
  • 1 1
 @mographer: I think people like skate style shoes because when they are cycling, on a bicycle, in cycling clothes they don’t want anyone to think they are a cyclist.

Is there an advantage to skate style? To me you want a sleeker shoe so you are less likely to hit trail side obstacles and can run the shoe closer to the crank and have more clearance from crank arms and the frame.
  • 1 1
 @TheR: These guys all have treadless shoes, so yea they look skate. Totally terrible for anywhere you might have to hike a bike even for a few yards. Get into shoes with tread, Mavic has some reasonable stuff, looks more like a hiking shoe.
  • 1 0
 @TheR: totally on board here - doesn't matter what you look like if you stink anyway.

Having said that one of the benefits of night riding is the cheeky beverage stop half way - though I'd still be sitting outside for that.
  • 1 0
 @torontomtb: I mean, all the PB editors choose to wear "skate shoes with cleat mounts attached" style bike shoes, but plenty of other options exist.

E.g - the Giro Gauge or Five Ten Trailcross are cleat-compatible MTB shoes that look like a trail running shoe.

The Pearl Izumi Expedition Pro and Specialized Recon are a different direction, kind of like a road bike shoe with a bunch of traction added.

The Adidas Velosamba looks like slightly-bulky Adidas sneakers.

The Shimano XM9 looks like something you'd go backpacking in.

The Shimano CT5 looks like those Sketchers that Joe Montana is always hawking.

And of course, no-one should forget the glory and majesty of the Shimano SPD Sandal.

There's actually quite a bit of variety in how cleat-compatible shoes look, feel and function. The PB editors just happened to all choose shoes that try to look like what rad skaters were wearing in the year-of-our-lord 1996.
  • 25 4
 I may get some flack for saying this, but why does every Trail/Enduro/DH style MTB shoe brand copy skate shoe design and use a massive heel block that does nothing besides make the shoes heavier and scuff up frames? I get why surface at the heel is useful for skating/deck grip, but it does nothing for riding, whether clipped in or on flats. I'm sure visually an XC shoe width heel with a big fore foot area is gonna take some getting used to, but it just seems like a smarter design IMO.
  • 3 0
 The new 5.10 kestrels look good, I have the old ones and they leave so much rubber on my frame im surprised and rubber is left one the shoes.
  • 2 0
 I suppose they beef up the heel or the whole shoe with foam to make it comfortable for 80% of the feet shapes? So it eventually moulds to your feet?
  • 3 0
 I ride Pearl Izumi X-Alp Elevates for this reason. I don't want a skate shoe, I want something closer to XC but with rugged soles. They are the old ones with a single boa on top (which is great because it's basically impossible to hit the boa dial on anything). No clue what I'll buy when those wear out. The new ones have boa on the side.

I really wanted to love Shimano ME7, but they are way too wide for me.
  • 2 1
 Thats something I've never been able to figure out either. Most flat pedal shoes are wide and fat. You can always tell the people that ride flat pedals from the missing paint on the chain and seat stays.
  • 2 0
 @eh-steve: Yes! Pearl Izumi X-Alp Elevates are my favorite all-around MTB shoe.

Durable AF. Comfortable in a wide range of temperatures. Stiff on the bike, but not going to tear up your feet if you have to hike for a bit. I'm gutted they seemed to have stopped making them. Were 2 BOAs just too expensive?

Mine are holding up really well after 3-years about somewhere around 5k of mostly-MTB miles, but I'm gonna be bummed when they finally do bite the dust and I can't replace them.

I just lost one BOA a few weeks ago, but BOA sent me a nice little free repair kit and I'm back up and running.
  • 1 0
 Hell yeah, you just invented the reverse mullet shoe. Fire!!!
  • 19 2
 Hardly The Good, The Bad and The Ugly when 3 out 5 five shoes are essentially the same thing. I will say that while I did enjoy the Mallet Boa and Mallet-E Boa while I had them, I went through two warranty claims because the cleat plate separated from the sole. Granted, I did a whole bunch of hike-a-biking with them.
  • 2 0
 What else to expect from non-shoe making manufacturers? They are probably all made at the same place.
  • 16 1
 surprised there's nothing on the specialized 2F0 shoes. by far the most comfortable shoe i have used
  • 5 0
 Agreed they are great. But am I the only one who thinks Fox just ripped off the Cliplite design - like they're almost identical!
  • 3 0
 they messed with the new model... the older one had way more airflow amd and extra cuff. Couldnt believe it when got the new ones...
  • 1 1
 Na I had a pair and they rub like hell at the top front of the cuff where normal shoe laces have their top lace hole. Big waste of money as you have to wear them to experience this and by then its too late to get your money back
  • 16 4
 Really disappointed the Keen clipless sandal didn't make the list. Ebike + Keen Footwear = match made in heaven! The only area I sweat when ebiking are my feet and the opened clipless concept from the shredders over at Keen completely resolved this issue.
  • 19 0
 Couldn't agree more, we just need to upgrade to that dildo-seat and we'll be all set!
  • 1 12
flag owl-X FL (Nov 10, 2023 at 10:55) (Below Threshold)
 Hey so you’re not welcome here. Please leave.
  • 3 3
 This… is a joke right? Do you wear white ankle socks with them too?
  • 13 3
 I'm surprised none of you like some ankle protection in a shoe. It doesn't need to be much to prevent those annoying pains the next day.
  • 11 1
 What kind of annoying pains are we talking about here?
  • 7 1
 sounds like you need to go to the doctor...i've never heard of this
  • 4 1
 I've never had the need for ankle protection. Sure, I've bashed them up during the occasional crash, but I've never come back from a ride thinking I need extra coverage. I assume that's the experience of most people, right?
  • 9 0
 Yup for the 20% or so of riders that have prominent ankle bones, it’s not uncommon to lose some skin or get bruised there.
  • 2 0
 Max says he likes coverage for the inner ankle.
  • 4 0
 @Explodo, I like some ankle protection, there just aren’t as many options out there with that feature. Some of Shimano’s shoes have a good asymmetric cuff, but unfortunately it’s not as common.
  • 4 1
 @mikekazimer: It is surprisingly uncommon to find shoes that help with that. Sidi Defenders have it some years, and some years they don't. It's very odd.

To those that don't know....if you're in an area with a lot of rocks or even an area with a lot of movement on the bike, you can whack your ankles and bruise/skin them pretty easily and they're not generally fast to heal.
  • 1 0
 part of the reason i gave the fizik gravitas a try. they're expensive, but good to ride in pretty much any conditions winter or summer, and along with the bit of ankle protection they have a super solid toe box
  • 7 1
 Bro you can't just come in here and perplex all of us with the suggestion that your ankles are mysteriously getting annihilated on every ride, and then just disappear for two hours.
  • 2 0
 If a mainstream clip shoe (Like Hellion, Mallet, Kestrel, etc.) had a high-rise version, I'd buy them. I have pokey ankles and have definitely gouged the skin there in crashes and pedal fumbles. Thankfully the better I've gotten over the years, the less it happens.
  • 1 0
 @stravaismyracecourse: They don't get damaged every ride, but an ankle gouging a few times a year was enough to get me to try out shoes with ankle protection, and I like it.
  • 2 0
 Shimano had ankle protection but recently discontinued the AM9 which is a bit sad.
  • 2 0
 A shoe has to have ankle protection for me. That's why I loved the Shimano M200, Sidi defender, Northwave enduro mid. My ankles can't take much more of a beating. I currrently have about 3 new pairs of all makes in waiting.
  • 1 0
 @topfuel564: Thanks for the recommendations. Does the Northwave actually go above the ankle? Their photo looks deceiving on the Enduro Mid 2.
  • 1 0
 @iduckett: I just purchased a pair from chain reaction for $89 and they are about the same as the shimano/sidi models.
  • 11 0
 Looks like all the cleats are slammed back.
  • 7 28
flag eddieclarkmedia (Nov 10, 2023 at 8:50) (Below Threshold)
 I think that's just ridiculous too. Why not run flats if you're not going to take advantage of using all the muscle groups in a full pedal stroke. Would be interesting to see achilles injury studies based on the length of time spent riding with celats slammed all the way back.
  • 11 0
 @eddieclarkmedia: I can only speak for myself, but as someone who rode flat pedals first, I find it essential to run my cleats as far back as I can. Running them any farther forward feels off balance and hurts my knees.
  • 9 1
 @eddieclarkmedia, I run clips and flats, but I prefer clipping in on faster, rougher trails - I don't need to worry as much about my feet getting knocked out of place. Flats are still my preference when it's super wet and greasy, though.
  • 2 0
 @mikekazimer: That makes sense.
  • 6 1
 @mikekazimer: and in all fairness, I don't think the PB editors are 'ridiculous', which was a poor choice of words. More so it appears that the reviews lean much more towards gravity than trail/all mtn. It's suprising the consensus on cleat position sacrificing pedalling performance/efficiency over gravity stability. Makes me wonder how much of the veiwing audience understands the difference between the two in regards to cleat positioning, or are they just doing what you guys do because they saw it on Pinkbike? For sure there's a happy medium, and I hope folks spend time figuring theirs out.
  • 2 1
 Yeah BTW.. Am I missing something here?
That’s a lot of reach lost!
I’m running my cleats forward to open up my size large Tallboy cockpit.
Should I have sized up on my frame?
  • 4 2
 @panthermodern: Do what feels right. That said, any drastic change in position should be done in small increments to allow the body a time for adaptation to prevent injury. If you're into more gravity and want that mid-foot stability then you're on the right path, but if you want to pedal your bike a lot, then consider slowly moving the cleat forward in small (like 1-2mm max) increments over a period of weeks or more until it's centered under the ball of your foot. You'll get your optimum pedalling efficiency and power by having the cleat directly under the ball of your foot so that you utilize all of the muscle groups in your foot/anke/lower leg in a full pedal rotation.
  • 3 0
 @eddieclarkmedia:
Right! Thank you!
I can say one thing about pedals- never gonna run anything but clipless platforms now..
Running the HT-T1’s, and I never guessed how much more support the platform can provide.
Now I have cleat range options, and it’s all easier on my knees!
RIP, XC pedals.
  • 4 0
 @eddieclarkmedia: every fitter I’ve ever been to (3 over the past 20 years) has slammed cleats all the way back in to better engage the glutes (and maybe hammies?).
  • 6 1
 @eddieclarkmedia: There is less stress on the achilles with the foot farther forward on the pedals.
  • 2 0
 @pmhobson:
I got some more experimenting to go.
I started with my cleats well back from center, but I’m finding positive gains with incremental moves forward.
Those returns are bound to diminish..
  • 4 0
 @bermtownusa I would say that was common a few years ago, but most of the shoes above offer plenty of adjustment. I'm not why it took so long to so long for companies to change their ways though because I never came across someone who couldn't get the cleats far enough forward ha!

The bolts are position about 90% rearward on my Fox shoes pictured above.
  • 1 0
 @Untgrad: yeah. Everyone is different. My fitters were responding to my body dimensions and pedaling style.
  • 1 0
 @Joecx: yep, add in that conditioning and the injuriy happens when you're pushing or off the bike.
  • 2 1
 @pmhobson: tell me about a bike fitter that has actually raced as a competitive pro in xc, cyclocross or on the road doing that.
  • 4 1
 @eddieclarkmedia: I have no interest in racing or trying to become to the first 40 year old to break into the pro circuit for the first time, so why would I want a fitter to optimize for that?
  • 2 0
 @pmhobson:
Since I moved my cleats forward, I feel better positioned on the bike.
Now I can run my saddle in the middle of the rails instead of slid back.
Weird, but I’m going with it.
  • 2 0
 @Joecx: but the obvious counterpoint is: further back on the pedal allows you to better engage the muscles the Achilles is attached to!
  • 1 0
 @Stumpclumper: Better sprinting for sure but I was answering @eddieclarkmedia's post.
  • 3 0
 @eddieclarkmedia: Have you checked out Pedalling Innovations theories on power transfer?
www.pinkbike.com/news/review-14-of-the-latest-and-greatest-flat-pedals.html#catalyst
  • 2 1
 @eddieclarkmedia: I don’t see any downsides to running the cleats all the way back, for both climbing and descending. Lots of bike fitters even slam the cleats all the way back on both mountain bikers and road cyclists.
  • 2 0
 @Joecx: Sorry, didn’t mean to single you out!

I like to talk about these fit questions because there’s a lot of discussion around modern trends in fit just being “better” (long reaches, low BB’s, short cranks, etc.), whereas I see everything as a continuum - everything in biomechanics is a trade off.
  • 2 0
 @Stumpclumper:
Amen to that Brother!
Fit is what works for you. Trends in bike fitting are a great suggestion, and often right because modern is different, and better!
But in the end, it’s what works for the individual- even if it bucks every trend!
  • 1 2
 It’s because they dream of riding with flats, but can’t ride with flats, so slamming the cleats is the next best thing.
  • 6 0
 The Mallet Boas are so good. As a long time Shimano fanboi I can say that the Crank Brothers are the best shoes I’ve owned. They just disappear on your feet (in a good way).
  • 4 0
 Bought my FiveTen Kestrels back in 2019 and they’ve been my favourite shoe by far. Super stiff sole, Velcro strap to get the fit just right, and still have a decent amount of rubber left despite plenty of hike a bike. I’ve only just replaced them with a pair of FiveTen Hellcats for everyday trail riding, they’re just a little more flexible and a better fit, I still have the Kestrels, but they’re set up for gravel rides now.

I tried a pair of the CrankBrother Mallet Boa shoes last season, but found them way too soft for trail, so have been using them for bike park or shuttle days instead. Way more comfortable than the FiveTens, but don’t feel as good while pedaling
  • 1 1
 The heel is too wide on those old kestrels. I have the kestrel pros and love them otherwise.
  • 4 0
 I also run the ME7s, I love the cuff. Why is no-one talking about the importance of a cuff? On my local trails shoes without cuffs end up with 12 types of shit in the shoe. I don’t run my cleats slammed to the rear either, despite a definite gravity preference. Tried it, hated it. Ball of my foot still on, but just slightly forward of the axle for me.
  • 10 3
 Simply cannot cope with the mix of Shimano shoes and Crankbrothers Pedals
  • 1 0
 ME7's and Mallets. Like Dario said, match made in heaven. Super popular combo, for good reason.

From the article: "Crank Brothers pedals and ME7 meshes perfectly with the Mallet...zero cleat spacers needed."
  • 1 0
 Agreed. This was a no go for me as well. Switched to SPDs and has been significantly better.
  • 3 0
 I love my crank bros mallet boas but I do wish they didn't look dirty all the time, something with the "finish" of the material, they never look good, always look dusty (at best). I wouldn't hesitate to buy another pair, just wished they looked better.
  • 3 0
 I too am currently using the Mallets (along with Mallet E pedals). They’re very good, but their “normal” width is too narrow for my EEE feet. So I’m still in search of a replacement for the much-missed Giro Terraduro HV (RIP).
  • 6 0
 I want to know about shoes that fit wider feet... because all of those are WAY TOO Narrow
  • 1 0
 Yeah, odd narrow tapered toe box seems the norm in a lot of cycling shoes. Other Shimano shoes not so much, but the ME7 toebox has some room. Can usually look at the shape of the front, if a shoe has a square or round front it's usually made for humans with 10 toes. Majority are narrow tapered front though, I assume for the vast market segment of people who are missing pinky toes.
  • 1 0
 Shimano has some wide versions but Lake is the one to look at, they have wide and extra-wide.
  • 1 0
 There's also that, every shoe manufacturer makes a Wide version. Some are really weird, like Giro which is widened front to back, others are pretty good like Sidi, who widen mostly the front. Lake, Bont etc make customs too. After several pairs I've given up as trying something on will get you a better fit every time.
  • 1 0
 I take a bont wide on the road and have found success with fizik gravita tensor enduro shoe. Square toe box adds width. Also like the toe protection and ankle cuff.
  • 2 0
 following. I need wider shoes.
  • 2 0
 It seems like the cleat positioning on the Crank Bros shoes is significantly more inboard on the shoe, pushing your feet out. Is that a new trend based on fit science? Usually on an mtb I thought you wanted to minimize the already large Q factor (without banging your heels on the cranks).
  • 3 0
 Thank you to those editors that talked about width. Finding shoes with a comfortable wide toe box is priority #1 for me.

I've tried sooo many MTB shoes that tapered to a sadistic euro-fashion toe box.
  • 3 1
 I always run my cleats all the way back, and I’ve been looking for a shoe that can be run further back than my 510 kestrals. Of all the ones listed here which seem to allow running the furthest rearward?
  • 2 0
 I have a pair of mallet boas I picked up to replace a pair of my Shimano Me7's, both on this list. Both shoes have been fantastic. Mallet Boas are so comfy, instantly perfect. They aren't quite as vented as the ME7's though.
  • 2 0
 Cleat position. You all seem to be running your cleats closer to the middle of the sole. I run mine the exact opposite. Is this just a preference thing, or am I doing something really wrong? Thanks Smile
  • 1 0
 After an incredibly painful toe-rock impact that consisted of me losing my big toenail and a lot of blood, I’m all about the burliest toe box I can find. Really happy with the RC Tallac Clips. A lot of shoes don’t protect the toes enough for fast techy riding.
  • 1 0
 Mallet DH with laces. No boa. Race zone fully slammed back, and widest stance. Ridiculously comfortable. Look great for about two weeks before the uppers peel apart. Still working great 2 years later for all rides and digging. Soles in excellent condition.
  • 1 0
 Do these kind of flat-style shoes with platform SPD pedals really make that much of a difference or should I really commit to learning to ride from scratch in SPDs again? I have a set of XT trail (no platform) pedals on my gravel bike and I have no problem using SPDs with Specialized Recons on that bike. When I try to swap from flats on my 150mm bike, I can't seem to get comfortable with riding technical terrain so I stick with flats so I can eject quicker and drop my heels more.
  • 1 0
 Shoes won't make too much difference in getting comfortable with moving to clipless from flats (as long as it unclips easily).

Start with the cleat tension low and, well, it's it a bit of a stressful experience getting used to it and learning how to eject quickly.

You might also want to try other pedals (like crankbrothers)
  • 2 0
 I struggle with literally every clip shoe i’ve ever tried to get the cleat far enough back, basically making me swear off clips for the last few years. i’m all in on flats baby.
  • 2 0
 So odd that they're always arranged for tippy toe riding. Who needs that?

Everyone I've ever seen was run slammed all the way back.
  • 1 0
 they all look so blocky, hell one adopted the synonym for its name, respect to Pearl Izumi and Bontrager who shape shoes w a little more shape and sporty look, and rhey last and feel responsive when clipped iin…the rest can stfu
  • 1 0
 I don’t understand the shoes with the off-set cleat position. Basically adds 1-2cm of Q-factor. Bike designs struggle to keep this as narrow as possible. Then buy a pair of shoes that force your feet super wide. It doesn’t need to make sense to me, and my wide Lake shoes with Boa are still available so I’m losing any sleep over it.

Only thing I can think is that people are duck-foot mounting the cleat and need clearance for their heel???
  • 2 0
 " I often think being clipped in is a bit like using Grammarly before sending an email." @henryquinney never disappoints. With the writing! You'll have to ask someone else about anything else.
  • 1 0
 Always amazes me in reviews on here for both flat and clipless shoes, they never cover Specialized. Not only great shoes in terms of quality but also lightweight and most critically, the quickest drying I have come across. You can literally dry them out while wearing them as soon as the rain stops and they are the only pair of shoes Ive had dry out overnight.
  • 1 0
 I would 100% use Shimano shoes if they made half sizes. It seems pretty silly that they don't... my shoe size is UK 10/EU 44.5 and can't get any pair of shimano in that size.
I went with Fox Union instead and really happy with them. Thorough recommendation.
  • 5 5
 I am afraid of being attached to to bike. Had anyone here rode flat, clip in and magnetic clip ins? Does magnetic clip in work almost as good as clip in but not as scary? Is it worth it? I mean, I do not want to spend 400 buck for pedals and shoes just to figure out it's garbage

I am about to buy 200 bucks pedals and very happy with my current shoes. But maybe I should look at magnetic one to improve pedalling power uphill?
  • 4 4
 From my understanding and riding with a guy that had magnet pedals it’s more to guide your foot to the same position on a flat pedal not “attach” your shoe like clipless
Just stick with flats, it forces you to have good technique
  • 3 5
 @loosegoat: some clipless simp is downvoting us Big Grin Thx man
  • 12 0
 @valrock, have you tried clipping in yet? It can definitely be strange / scary / awkward at first, but after some practice in a grassy field or even on a stationary trainer it doesn't take too long to become second nature. With Shimano pedals you can reduce the spring tension to make it easier to get in and out, and then increase it as you become more comfortable.

There's also nothing wrong with sticking with flats either - they're a totally valid option, and with good sticky shoes the difference between flats and clips isn't as dramatic.
  • 2 0
 Just ride flats. After 33 years of switching between flats and clips I've been on flats for the last 18 months and not looking to change back - the last 6 months has been mainly on a HT as well. My commuter even has flats on it now.
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer: I rode clipless for 10ish years with a little bit of flats sprinkled in, went to full flats 3 years ago. I see the benefits of both. I think flats force you to have proper technique since you actually have to grab the pedals and clips you can put down more power and have a more direct connection, I just don’t like the thinking “real mountain bikers ride clipless”
  • 2 0
 @valrock: can’t win them all
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer: cool advice. But the last point - I thought the main point of clipless would be the ability to put power upwards to the pedal so you are always pedaling with both legs. I want clipless for that reason - to be able to put more power on the way up. I do not care about them going down... it straight scares me being attached to the bike Big Grin
  • 2 0
 @loosegoat: most of the people I know ride flats... those few who swear by clipless are all with "Roadie Background" Big Grin . So I think it just comes from that road\gravel\XC experience
  • 2 0
 @valrock: clipless descending allows you to "float" over the bike and possibly get more forward as you can have your feet flat rather than heels down. They're definitely quicker up and down. Just give them a go and report back.
  • 3 2
 What the hell is there to downvote in this post?!
You run clipless, so now this guy just sucks?
He’s got a realistic fear of doing a face plant at speed with a bike attached to his feet? So, with enough downvotes maybe he’ll man up?
He asked about magnetic clipless, which is for wimps?
Can we save downvoting for a truly dickish post rather than a valid question from someone looking for some feedback from those in the know?!
I had the same issues coming from motorcycle racing to Mtn biking. But good news- somehow crashing has always caused the pedals to unclip from non-magnetic clipless for me and my friends.
My fear of magnetic clipless is that I’ll break out of them landing sideways off a jump, though I haven’t tried them.
I’m using the HT-T1 pedals because I can get into them, I seem to stay in, and can get out when I want to. Took some set up time.
  • 1 0
 @loosegoat: sage advice.
  • 2 0
 @Untgrad: it's ok my man. These stuff are holly war stuff kinda thing so I am not surprised. But I still think it smells like roadies are downvoting Big Grin
  • 1 0
 @valrock:
Ah, that makes all the sense in the world..!
  • 2 0
 @valrock:
Here’s something I thought I’d never be saying- after coming from years of cliipless, I rode some flats and I was flying off my pedals over fast DH chop..
And this from a motorcycle racer no less.. What have I become..?
I agree with Valrock- when my legs are toast on a climb, I try to pull up out of my clipless pedals to give the hamstrings a break.
It works sometimes!
  • 2 2
 I've never seen anyone wear their clips all the way back on the shoe!! How could that be comfortable, I'm wondering. And the power transfer one typically gets from the ball of their foot has me assuming that doesn't apply to you. Smile
  • 7 0
 @dmackyaheard @Trailin If you could imagine standing barefoot on just the pedal spindle (no platform), where would that line up? Would you do a heavily-weighted squat in the gym standing on the balls of your feet? Probably not. I'd wager that the most balanced position is to have the axle somewhere behind the ball of your foot.
  • 1 0
 @mattbeer: Good advice! I will give it a try!
  • 2 0
 @mattbeer: yup, like how a good rider places their feet when running flats.

That old ball of the foot cleat placement is straight out of eighties road biking.
  • 1 0
 Anybody with the Crankbros Mallet BOA's breaking the cleat box? I'm on my 3rd pair now. Luckily their warranty and customer service has been good.
Im about 205lb and run XT Shimanos for reference
  • 1 0
 Fox BOA looks a lot like Ride Concepts BOA. Even the Fox insole has cushioning, just like RC 3DO inserts. Coincidence or planed, since Fox acquired RC. Smart mve by Fox to buy out a competitor and utilize its technology.
  • 1 0
 Stupid shimano changing the fit and no half sizing anymore is a real bummer. If all the other shoes would just put a the cuff to keep debris out already, I could have choice. Love my older AM’s.
  • 1 0
 I’ve had 2pairs of me7 for a few years now. I made the jump to am9 and 903 and I where them every where they are the most comfortable shoe. All rides get rowdy and I’m well prepared with them.
  • 4 0
 lol hates flat pedals!
  • 2 0
 Shimano needs to re-release their Stormtrooper shoes. I loved them. Worked perfectly with my Mallets!
  • 2 1
 does anyone know why shimano decided to just ignore the large foot crowd? would love to get a new pair of the ge9's but they have a stop at size EU48.
  • 2 0
 It's pretty frustrating. Ive open so many shoe reviews over the years and then immediately closed them because they only go to size 13 (or 47/4Cool . There's honestly only a few option out there for size 14+
  • 1 0
 Just guessing, but maybe because they sold like 2.5 pairs?

Worked as a retail merchandiser for a national shoe chain, precise ratio we sold was eleventygajillion pairs of size 10.5 (44) for every one pair of size 14 (48.5).
  • 1 0
 @donaarblitzen: maybe canadians are just small?
  • 1 0
 @novajustin: Have you not watched hockey? lol
  • 2 0
 Everyone's shoe is beat up, dirty and sans legs but naturally @henryquiney is modeling his and they look clean lol!
  • 2 0
 specialized cliplite shoes for the win. everything else smashes SMASHES my toes... any help anyone?
  • 2 0
 Just keep buying cliplites. They're crazy comfortable to me, and they seem to hold up quite well.
  • 1 0
 @BullMooose: same here! seem to be really hard to get at the moment, and they're on sale everywhere you look (if they're in stock)
are they getting discontinued? I'm scared aha!!
  • 3 0
 Specialized 2fo dh clip 2.0…crap name, great shoe!
  • 1 0
 The previous gen were brilliant, have killed the boas on two pairs, rest of the shoe scuffed but holding together nicely. Problem is, the new gen doesn't fit my foot at all.
  • 1 0
 Sure miss the fit of my old Northwave shoes. Italian loafer comfort, sprint bike stiffness. And the gaudy green/yellow combo....just don't see that anymore.
  • 1 0
 I had a pair of bright red and yellow Answer shoes that clashed perfectly with my green and yellow bike in the early 00’s. I mean I don’t miss it, but kinda do at the same time.
  • 2 0
 Can someone recommend a W_I_D_E clipless shoe w/ big natural shape toe box?
  • 1 0
 Lake makes a nice shoe that is wide; then a crappy narrow toe box. Best thing I’ve found, but I’ve been tempted to customize them with a razor knife at times.
  • 1 0
 Not super wide but straight toe box is the fizik tensor gravita. I struggle with width in shoes for everything. I’m happy with them for my wide feet.
  • 1 0
 I'm searching too. In the past, Giro, Shimano and Specialized offered a decent selection of wide sizes, but they seem to have discontinued most of them, especially in the "enduro-ish" (non-XC) type of shoes most of us want. And before anyone mentions it: no, the Sidi so-called wide sizes are not wide enough, not even close.
  • 1 0
 elasticated speed laces are a few quid on Amazon and instantly turn a bottom of the range lace up shoe into the next model up do it!
  • 1 0
 I still have my 5.10 Minnaar's (painted black) for freeride and trail... And for XC I have my Adidas Voltaje
  • 2 0
 Seb Stott "hates flat pedals". But WHY??!!
  • 3 0
 U-G-L-Y
  • 2 0
 Size 48!!! No wonder Henry has the confidence to spout so much faff!
  • 1 0
 Searching for ankle high clipless shoes like my old perfect shimanos SH-MT53 but cannot find soweit like these
  • 1 0
 I don’t always clip in, but when I do the Mallet laces I picked up not long after they were released have been mint.
  • 1 0
 there's two clear trends among Pb testers; no dropper is long enough, no cleats can go far back enough
  • 1 0
 My favorite riding shoes in 1990 were Nike ACG hiking boots (sick ass orange) with toe clips, but then things changed.
  • 1 0
 my original Minnaar HellCat is still kickin after years of abuse and neglect.
  • 1 0
 I prefer the Pearl Izumi X-Alp Elevate. The 510 Kestrals were good too before they were Adidas.
  • 2 0
 Pb needs to hire some tech editors with wide feet. 4E+
  • 2 0
 Cycling industry needs to make shoes for this population as well.
  • 1 1
 i am suprised by all these boas. those things hurt tops of my feet putting all that pressure on a thin little thread like that. i abandoned the boa systems years ago
  • 1 0
 Lack of adequate or even any ankle protection. Yearn for the old Nike Poobahs!
  • 1 0
 Pearl Izumi X-Alp Summit has a genuine Vibram sole.
  • 1 0
 ME7, 'easy on and off', clearly you need to try a BOA shoe
  • 1 0
 Shimano am9 on Hope union gravity pedals.
  • 1 0
 Henry the only man with class.
  • 1 0
 Any shoe that fits my long, narrow, flat feet is a good shoe.
  • 1 0
 Amen to that!
  • 1 0
 Pinkbike Editors' Favorite Underwear
  • 1 0
 Do not sleep on Giros and NorthWave fellas Smile
  • 1 0
 What? No SIDI dominator v1s? neon blue and yellow. Classic.
  • 1 0
 X-mas elf Henry!
  • 6 9
 Explain the term clipless without given a tedious history lesson about roadies from the days when everything was black and white.
  • 21 0
 They don't use toe clips--therefore clipless.
  • 3 0
 Comes from toe clips, ya know those little baskets that are on the front of pedals that you strap your toes into. When pedals didn't have those anymore they were called clipless
  • 1 0
 Clip-less means without clips- do you see any clips on these shoes??- why do you even ask!!?? isn't that obvious??!! ... Oh! Shimano- what's that? You ruined my rant!
  • 3 1
 Prior to 1990 and the release of the Shimano SPD, all mtn bike pedals had toe-clips (a pedal with a cage around the front of the shoe and a strap at the back of the cage going over the top of your shoe that you tightened to keep your foot from coming off the pedal on the upstroke). Sounds ridiculous, and they, were but that's all there was back then. It's how I started mtn biking in 1990 until I was able to get SPD's, which were a game changer. Bigger picture is proper pedalling technique means pulling up on the pedal on the backside of the pedal stroke allows you to pedal more efficiently by ultizing all the muscle groups instead of just pushing down one pedal at a time- it's why you'll never see a pro xc racer, cyclocrosser or roadie running flat pedals.
  • 5 0
 The larger pedals used to hit things and you would clip a rock or a root. With spd you would "clip less" rocks and roots so they called the clipless.
... That's my story and I am sticking to it!
  • 1 0
 @wcmitch: too complex... Can you simplify it a bit more?
  • 1 0
 @Tormy: alternate facts, but not 'historically' correct.
  • 1 0
 @Tormy: the only explanation ive heard that makes sense. not sure why a pedal with a cage around the front of your shoe would be called clipless, more like a pedal shoe net, pedal shoe basket, pedal shoe contraption. foot grabber!
  • 2 0
 @devinkalt: Would you believe there were even specific shoes too? They had a channel in the sole behind the ball of the foot that seated into the backside of the pedal so that when you tightened the strap you were essentially 'clipped' in.
  • 1 1
 Leatt shoes are hawt
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