E-bikes are a touchy subject for many mountain bikers. I get it. In fact, my first memory of seeing an e-bike out in the wild was joy, joy at smashing past the fat, lazy f*cker on a climb. There's something just wrong about an engine on a bicycle, right? The two things are like oil and water, or at least they seem that way at first... We need to talk about e-bikes though. Forget all the chest-beating PR bullshit pumped out by fatbike enthusiasts being the next big thing to happen to our sport. In Wisconsin they may indeed be the "fastest growing segment in mountain biking" as the Fatbike Forum claimed they are, but if you start looking beyond the US, the picture is less rosy. According to the Fatbike Forum's own stats the global market for fatbikes is 80,000 bikes per year right now. In 2015, Cube alone sold 50,000 e-bikes, that doubled in 2016...
The latest figures have the global market at 1.1 million units a year and in Europe they are rapidly poaching sales away from the conventional mountain bike market. My favourite statistic, according to one source is that the Haibike 12,000 Euro e-DH bike outsold the Specialized Demo this year (although I haven't been able to verify this claim). Bike shops in some countries (ie. not in the US) are reporting that customers come in to buy a 160mm trail bike and end up taking the e-version instead. Love them or loathe them, e-bikes are coming and sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "la, la, la" because you don't like the idea isn't going to change a thing. So, what the f*ck is an e-bike anyway?
Before we go any further, I need to nod my head to those of you on the left-hand side of the Atlantic. I haven't lived there, so feel free to tell me I am wrong here, but the impression I get is that your land access is hard fought and maintained. This is not the place to get into why that is so, but it is a time to acknowledge that and say clearly, that if I were in your shoes, I would be protective as hell of my trails too. And yes, e-bikes do raise some big questions and risks for trail advocacy, but we will touch on that later in this piece.
To be totally honest, the first time I rode an e-bike did nothing to shake my gut feeling that something was profoundly wrong about them. The bike was a weird mess of tubes, wires and controls, with a motor on the rear wheel and a throttle on the bars. Apparently you could wind it right out to 80 km/h if you took the limiter off. While moving fast is always fun, at least it is in my book, there was something just wrong about a bicycle where you don't need to turn the pedals. It felt profoundly uncomfortable to be zipping along, feet ready to pedal, but never to be needed. It's not the same thing any more. So before we dive down this rabbit hole let's get one thing clear: if you want something with a throttle, stop being a pussy and buy a motorbike. The same goes if you want to smash through the countryside at a steady 50km/h, regardless of how you achieve it, that is pure motorbike territory.
The second time I got on an e-bike was one of the Flyer bikes, possibly one of the first full-suspension e-bikes to reach production. With the battery mounted between the seattube and the rear wheel and the motor mounted in the rear wheel itself, it was an abortion of a thing, not the kind of bike you would ever consider riding on anything like a real trail. Yet in the last couple of years the technology has moved forwards and the current crop of e-bikes are more like something most of us would recognise as a bike. My third e-bike experience was one of these. It started with my ingrained prejudice that this was a Bad Idea. An hour and a half, 1,500m climbing and two descents later, I had to begrudgingly admit that I'd had fun. In the time I could normally do one decent trail in, I had done two and all that weight in the frame made the thing hilarious pinballing through loose rock and steep chutes. It was a different feeling to my other bikes, but not so different, and it was undeniably fun. While the engine did change the experience, the heart of the experience is still very close to the mountain biking I fell in love with some 20 years ago.
This brings us onto the most important word when we talk about e-bikes - "motorised." Legally e-bikes are considered motorised and
globally the legal situation is convoluted. In fact, in most of the United States they are grouped in with motorbikes or mopeds by law. A quick look at a state-by-state guide shows differing legislation and restrictions in each state, different power outputs, different power requirements, license requirements and land access issues.
Here in Europe it a bit less complicated, thanks to the EU. There are two types of e-bikes - there are electric pedal-assisted cycles (they have been given the snappy acronym of EPACs by European lawmakers), which are strictly regulated, and then there is everything else which is pretty much covered in my previous paragraph. In fact, anything outside the EPAC regulations is on dodgy ground, much of the time banned from trails for being motorised, but also banned from the roads for being unroadworthy. So from here on in, when we talk of e-bikes, we are talking about these EPACs. EU legislation means they have their power limited to 250W, they are restricted to 25km/h and the motor only functions when you pedal. So long as they comply to these rules, here in Europe they are considered mountain bikes by law and have access to everything mountain bikes have access to.
Of course while this may be the letter of the law when we talk about motorisation, the feel of the thing is another matter altogether. There is, of course, a very clear argument for them being considered motorised - they have a motor. Nobody is going to argue with you there, but it's how that motor works where the moral dilemma of the whole topic hangs. You see, you car and motorbike are motorised - they are designed so that you get in/on, start the engine and go. No fitness or manual input required. If you sit on an e-bike and do nothing, aside from falling over, you're not going to move an inch. The motor on these EPAC bikes only works when you turn the pedals. The motor works by amplifying your pedal input. So is motorised the best word to describe these e-bikes? Surely the word "assisted" is a better fit?
If you've got this far and are thinking, "Well that's not mountain biking any more," you wouldn't be wrong. It is not true to say it is the same thing, but how different is it out on the trail? To begin with, let's break down the stats on an e-bike to put the motor more closely into context. How much power is 250W? Not much is the short answer. It is about the same as 25 hairdryers... When we talk of cycling wattages, 250W is pretty small beans. If you stop and look at your Strava stats, you will see that somewhere around the 200W is more than achievable for an average rider to put out as an average over several hours of riding. Adding the average human and the bike together, 500W sounds significant? Well, not really. Top Enduro World Series racer, Greg Callaghan, has measured his max power output at over 1,600W. This is a max output, so it's not sustainable for more than a few seconds, but it puts 500W in perspective quite nicely. If you are worried about this power being unleashed on your local trails, do you also want to ban Greg from riding there too?
Then, we need to think about how fast is 25km/h? On a fireroad drag it's quite a bit faster for sure, but the way the motors work is by responding to your pedal input, so when you get onto technical singletrack that difference is much smaller. On steep, technical climbs, the reality is that you are more likely to see e-bike riders pushing their bikes up than blitzing through. It is not easy to maintain your cadence, causing the bike to stall and the rider finding themselves the proud owner of a 25kg trail anchor that is going to suck pushing up to the top. Going down it is much the same story, on the straights you can reach 25km/h fairly quickly, but you would be surprised how often you pass that mark and find yourself hauling the bike down the trail unassisted as you have passed the limiter's top speed for assistance from the motor. When you get to the corners, the motor is no help - at least for now they are not quick enough to react instantly as you try to get that perfect pedal stroke out of the corner. And it is certainly less damaging than punters dragging their brakes through a corner on a regular bike. You find yourself muscling a 25kg bike down the trail, which takes more strength and skill to do than a regular bike. Maybe Specialized Sean Estes' description of an e-bike is the most fitting - it's like a fast-forward button for the less exciting parts of the ride, but when it comes to the bits most of us cherish most, the difference is not as big as you might think.
In case you are wondering how fixed this is - these limits are set by EU law, so to see them overturned would take the best part of a decade of lobbying and political negotiation, they are going nowhere any time soon. Some naysayers worry that this is going to turn into an arms race for faster engines, but talking to engine suppliers it is clear that they are not interested in this. Companies like Bosch are currently working with the EU to look at how they can help enforce the regulations out in the real world. Why you may ask? Simple. Because by keeping the bikes within the legal definition of a bicycle opens up a whole new market for them and, hopefully, entices people to buy bikes who are put off by the physicality of mountain bikes and the perceived danger of motorbikes. If you step outside mountain biking, this is even more crucial for the commuter market, as they want a product that offers the convenience of their motors, but is allowed to use existing cycling infrastructure. They are not locking themselves into these laws out of the goodness of their hearts, but because they can see much bigger opportunity this way - they see
mass appeal for this well beyond the bounds of either the bicycle or motorbike market.
Of course, we then reach the inevitable question of trail erosion. Some people have suggested that an e-bike may be less damaging to the trail, because the power is delivered more smoothly, eliminating some of the harsh acceleration that digs into the ground, but there is no evidence to support this right now, so let's consider this bullshit until someone proves it otherwise. However, any argument that e-bikes cause more trail damage is pretty much sewn up with
IMBA's 2015 findings of their study on trail erosion: "Results from the field experiment show that, under this set of conditions, soil displacement and tread disturbance from Class1 eMTBs and traditional mountain bikes were not significantly different, and both were much less than those associated with a gasoline-powered motorcycle." And that is coming from IMBA, who have recently clubbed together and decided that e-bikes are a Bad Thing, so hardly a biased source.
Hopefully by now you have a clear picture of what we are talking about when we say "e-bike." If we know what, then the logical next question is: why? At this point a lot of people roll out very earnest arguments about helping old or infirm people onto the trails, and as commendable as that may be, f*ck that. These are not the majority of people that are buying e-bikes right now, and that is not the main reason they are being sold. While many probably don't want to hear this, the main reason people are buying e-bikes is because they are fun. One stereotypical image of the e-bike user is lazy, but this doesn't seem to tally with the reality of the people who buy them. Certainly one major European bike brand noticed that their team who were focusing on e-bikes actually got fitter because they meant they were riding more than they were before.
Of course fun doesn't really cover the magnitude of what e-bikes represent. Let's start with a small example. How much time do you have to ride each day/week/month? And let's go on to assume that what most of the people reading this article enjoy most of all is going downhill as fast as they can. So if you introduce a bike that means you can get the climbing done faster and get more time doing what you enjoy most, logically, is that not more fun? Certainly from personal experience I know I am lucky enough to be able to find about an hour and a half most days to ride. Normally this means one climb and one descent. With an e-bike I can double this. Of course this leads to the question of fitness and we have to go back to how the motor works. If you want to climb 1,500m in an hour and a half you're going to have to work hard, the motor simply means you get more ground covered for your time and calories. The mistake most people make when thinking about e-bikes is thinking that it makes what they do now easier, rather than asking how much more they could be doing. The next obvious moral question is, is this any better or worse than taking a shuttle or a chairlift?
There is some cynicism right now because the industry is pushing e-bikes hard, that it is just another hype like Boost axles or metric shocks. If you step back and consider the bigger picture, what you find with e-bikes is the potential for mass participation, this is no incremental change, it is the possibility of expanding the boundaries of our sport. Among mountain bikers, we quickly forget that even a middling biker has far more fitness than most of the general public. If you don't believe me, go into any office building for a day and spend your time with people who do 40 or so hours a week at a desk.
If you've worked in an office for any length of time, you will probably have had to endure someone collecting to run a marathon. Earnestly going from desk-to-desk, to raise money for whatever good cause is in fashion this week to raise enough sponsorship to fulfill a lifetime goal of running a marathon. Yet if we as mountain bikers take a step back and consider what a marathon actually is, the simplest answer is around four hours of cardio. Now think of a four-hour ride, that's four hours of fairly comparable cardio. Most of us would be pretty tired afterwards, but it's not a lifetime ambition for most mountain bikers, it's merely a good day's riding. In our little bubble we forget that most people find the idea of doing an hour of sustained exercise deeply intimidating - something as simple as a 10km ride round easy trails may look like an ordeal to a good percentage of the general population. In steps the e-bike. By vastly reducing the fitness barrier, that opens the door to more and more people coming to do what is pretty much mountain biking (certainly they won't give a crap about our moral concerns of whether it is motorised or not). Think this is pure theorising? It is to some extent, but seeing as virtually every major manufacturer now sports an e-bike in their range, it seems to be a theory some smart people are buying into too...
One, valid, concern some riders have expressed when we have discussed this theory is what will happen to their trails. Certainly some of the less legal options out there wouldn't survive an onslaught of many times more traffic. However, there are problems and there are problems. Surely how to deal with potentially surging popularity is a good problem for the sport to deal with? Yes, there are risks, and some people are definitely going to get it wrong, so it's not necessarily going to be great for everyone, any major upheaval will inevitably have casualties. But some people will also get it right, we will need good trail advocates, land access negotiators, entrepreneurs who can see how to harness this, trail builders who can make trails both sustainable and fun. Places like 7 Stanes and Rotorua prove that mountain biking can have a massive positive impact for the whole community, and it's a pretty safe bet to say the people behind those destinations are starting to think about how to add e-bikes into their mix. They will tell you very clearly that anything that brings more money into their communities is only a good thing.
So what are we left with? No, e-bikes are not quite mountain bikes, but they are far closer to them than many of their detractors would have you believe. They are not that much faster when it counts, they don't do much more damage to the trail and they are only 10kg heavier than a normal mountain bike (and still slightly lighter than a Karpiel Apocalypse). Certainly anybody who cannot tell the difference between an EPAC and a motorbike should not be allowed to ride either. Yes, they bring challenges and risks that we will need to face, but at the end of the day, they are a way to get more people doing, what as far as they are concerned is mountain biking, and surely that is a good thing? On a personal level, if this doesn't do it for you, fine - nobody is suggesting for a second that they will replace our bicycles. Even if my collection maybe expands to add an e-bike in the future, I'm certainly never going to sell my good old-fashioned leg-powered bicycles. You can pry them from my cold, dead SPDs. But I do believe we should welcome these people and bikes, as a bigger sport will bring better things for all of us in the long-run.
Disclaimer: The views expressed in this article are those of the author and do not necessarily represent the views of Pinkbike.com. For an alternate take on this contentious topic, you can read Mike Kazimer's opinion here.
Not everyone on an e-bike is fat and lazy.
Ride your local trails for 10yrs on a hardtail, knowing every rock/rut/and root. Then ride them on a motorized bike. It's a blast! It turns something familiar into something new. Something FUN again.
Sometimes you might have a couple hundred dollars to burn on something new, to have a new experience. So you decide to buy a new toy, an e-bike. Then you ride the trails a couple times, have some fun, then you garage the thing. Or youride it up the block to grab a six-pack every once in a while. Or you give it to your wife so you can spend some time together on a bike.... Stop acting like it's a plague of the industry. It's just a bike.
I have chronic severe ulcerative colitis, and this year I was diagnosed with osteomyelitis in my lower spine (which had been festering for a year before I was finally diagnosed), in short, my doctors are surprised I can walk one mile. I raced DH for years, and have loved bikes ever since I got my first BMX in 6th grade. I'm exactly the kind of person that an e-bike would help.
But, I think it's bullshit that people say e-bikes ok because people like me could use them. (1) If ANYTHING happened to the bike and I was more than a mile or two from the car, I would be immediately placed in an emergency situation where I would be reliant on search and rescue; (2) it sucks I have a disability, and I desperately miss mountain biking, but that doesn't mean we should change the essence of what it means to be in a wilderness area. I love mountain biking in part because we're in nature, and away from motorised vehicles, I'm not so greedy as to ruin everyone else's time just because I can't enjoy the same thing for a little while; (3) there's alternatives for people like us with disabilities, we can ride motorcycles, e-bikes on bike paths, or do just about anything else that doesn't require changing what I see as a fundamental rule (not motors in wilderness areas); (4) I don't like being used to prop up an argument for e-bikes, when I don't think they're valid even for folks like me.
Wow -- I have heaps of respect for your active position on this issue. So many of us are simply looking for any reason to validate the views and qualities that we already have, myself included, but you have (in part) placed conservation in front of potentially selfish concerns. Of course, others with disabilities may have their own desires, but I applaud yours here. Thanks for writing.
1) I have no faith that people will self regulate and stay off non-motorized trails with their e-bike. After enough e-bikers get caught on non-motorized trails, we WILL lose trail access because of e-bikes.
2) Blurring the lines between bike and motorcycle will create confusion on what users are okay to ride a given trail. Trails that are currently MTB only WILL start to have actual motorcyles riding them.
Hopefully I am wrong but you know I'm not.
how about this
The management concern is social because of how ebike haters will respond and behave when encountering ebike riders on the trails because of how they talk about it on forums like this.
Did you know major trail management groups are using ebikes to get crews and gear into work sites on the trails here in BC? Yeah, probably not.
If you don't like them, don't get one.
Specialized and the like are going to kill trail access in the US for the sake a few years of sales.
Is it bad? NO!
Is it easier? YES!
Do de fins make everything for you? NO!
I've tried them, they are fun, but not for me a 23 year old guy, but my 63 years old dad owns one, and its the only way we can get back riding together.
Your comparison is actually a lot better if you were to use swimming vs.swimming w/fins = walking vs. walking w/wheels (i.e. bike riding without a motor).
e-bikes are not good for "us". Why is it good for me that a bunch of people who have no business being in the woods are out riding e-bikes?
Mountain bikers are like reformed drunks who feel the need to tell the world how evil alcohol is sometimes.
But that's growth in MTB in general - and while I think it's a great thing (probably because I live in Bellingham, where it's been a great thing, and go to other places like Squamish and Hood River and the Fraser Valley, where that's also true), I don't at all agree that we have to embrace e-bikes because they're going to grow the sport. That is not at all a logical conclusion, I think, at least here in the US. There's plenty of potential to grow the sport in all sorts of sustainable ways that do not require e-bikes.
But seriously though: look at the power of the car lobby in Europe and the USA. They get their power from numbers of people using their products (OK, that, and the fact that these days it's pretty hard to live without a car). There's a lot of forest that's currently legally off limits,like the one 200m from my front door. If mountainbiking in all of its collective forms becomes bigger than equestrians and walkers put together, then maybe we'll have it our way for a change.
I seriously doubt that we will, but at least there will be the possibility of it.
On the other hand, it does mean a major traffic increase on trails around cities. There's no getting away from that.
Also, have you seen what an eMTB battery cost to replace? If you thought an X01 cassette was expensive...
I can't see how having more people involved is going to make the sport any better. It's about me out on my bike in nature. Getting more people into biking isn't going to help me with that. Probably the opposite.
Don't dismiss 250w as not much power. This is why there's such a furor over hidden motors in the road side of things. The ability to turn a donkey into a thoroughbred race horse.
The author either doesn't fully understand power or he was deliberately trying to obfuscate the truth.
@ARonBurgundy: yeah. Could you imagine sustaining 25km/h up a 10km climb with an avg grade of 9%? That would be awesome. Haha.
Bjorns Kranked kit is at this point already.
Not Mountain Bike.
This! We have a hard enough time keeping our trail systems open to bikes. Equestrians cant tell the difference and soon all bikes will be banned!
E-bike = E-bike
I don't know who is further from reality: a guy who says E-bike is a mountain bike or a guy who says E-bike is a motorbike. I mean I know, it is rather obvious. Go, fricking go and survive 2-3 years jumping around MX track and come back to me with your theory. Go ride a street bike on a track and tell me E-bike has anything to do with a motorbike... Jesus Christ...
You're getting hung up on semantics though. A motorbike doesn't have to be fossil fuelled, it is any bike with a motor powered drive train.
I'm a purist, and if you're not pedalling your mountain bike under your own steam, then you can f*ck off. (If you physically can't pedal, then that's a different story.)
There's a market for e-bikes, but if manufacturers think that people are going to sit by silently whilst they dilute MTB, they're so wrong.
Hence why I contributed my opinion to this open article, asking for opinions.
Or was it rhetorical?
Compare it to the exoskeleton suits being developed for soldiers and the disabled. If I wear one that helps me run faster or carry heavy objects, would you still consider me a human being or would you call me a robot?
Humans are on their way to converging with technology.The lines between them are going to blur and you are not going to be able to apply 100+ year old definitions to new technology.
No for a land manager that is not a good thing at all, and will result in a harder job for advocacy, and more blanket bans. So no, it is not a good thing for MTBing.
You'll just have to replace "mountain bikes" and "e-bikes" with "e-bikes" and "e-dirt bikes", respectively. All your arguments will apply.
Oh, and let us know how your 4 hour marathon went... it's just 4 hours of cardio after all.
Indeed. My ebike opinion is moot here based on the general PB sentiments, but I know a bit of running. I've done a 10k in under an hour, and it was a hard effort...couldn't be sustained for 4+ x that distance. My fiance has run several marathons at varying levels of fitness/training...4 hours for a marathon is a pretty epic time for most intermediate/amateur runners. So:
"a four-hour ride, that's four hours of fairly comparable cardio. Most of us would be pretty tired afterwards, but it's not a lifetime ambition for most mountain bikers, it's merely a good day's riding."
...is not so at all. Unless you're EWS, you're not conducting "merely a good day's riding" at 4-hour marathon pace. You're just not. So add this to the pile of anecdotal assumptions/comparisons made in this editorial.
but its "just 4 hours of cardio." nah dog go run a marathon and tell me how that compares..
Of course some will say "how about bike parks and lifts", well most of the people who ride never had their asses seated on one, and still, it's all about PEDALING only, even in DH. The thing is, through all my 20 and something biking years, I've been in shape and out of shape and never had any problems acknowledging that in this sport, fitness and effort are part of it, just like running. That's why there are others witch evolve motors, like enduro bikes.
Now the "knees" thing, I've ridden with people 70+ on granfondos, even some people who had horrible motorbike crashes and destroyed knees, they still ride, even with some limitations, but they do it for the challenge, they don't want to do short cuts, believe me.
For me, putting an engine on a bike will kill the spirit of the sport.
As for the fun argument, I bet they are fun. But I bet poaching a flow trail on a riding mower is fun too. It just seems more like gimmicky fun rather than a decent new direction for the sport.
"[The] production of too many useful things produces too large a useless population." Karl Marx, Human Requirements and Division of Labour, 1844.
the chasing footage is by an ebike cameraman, they show up sometimes in the video (crossing the finish line behind an athlete)
It's categorical thinking: motors-bad. People can't comprehend that not all motors are the same. I've even had people tell me that rider will "hack" the motor, as if it's possible or even easy to just make an induction motor more powerful.
So the difference between small motorcross and e-bike begin to be small ....
At the end of the day, I'm really not that concerned with how somebody else has fun, as long as it doesn't destroy trails I care about, & e-bikes fit within that. But I can't advocate for them in the US with how many enemies MTB trail access has.
so good.
Why do you get so hung up on rules which to me seem to be pretty unenforceable?
But ultimately, part of my investment comes from the fact that I'm on the board of a local non-profit, fighting for more bike access, & I really don't want to see the progress we've made rolled back because somebody found a willing govt official to declare that "we can't enforce the ban on e-bikes because we can't tell the difference between them & regular bikes, so all bikes are banned."
Absolutely. And this applies to many of the more sensitive areas in BC as well. Many areas won't have an issue, but in the zones that are hotly contested by other (more "established") user groups, the current hard-fighting trail orgs won't want to triple their efforts in order to completely redefine what we want to consider non-motorized access.
Again. Be very very careful with pedal assisted E-bikes. They are after all mountain bikes whether you like it or nor. They are human powered/ motorized mountain bikes. And no pro rider but extreme cases of Fest guys will ever say no to his sponsor if he asks them to ride one to promote the genre.
Cry me a river of your cancerous thoughts.
Does it have a motor? Yes. Then it's motorized, period. That definition doesn't depend on how that motor is activated, be it via a twist throttle or turning the cranks.
I would go further and say, these are electric motorcycles.
We can tell the bicycle corporations to go F off by voting with our wallets.
Keep riding and enjoying the sport
Your point about the average office dweller being woefully out of shape, however, is well taken...
u probably wouldnt jump out on a football field with pads ready to smash somebody unless you're in shape, youve practiced and you're ready for the moment (unless you're looking to get hurt). i think the same with a bike.... if you're not in good enough shape to ride, going faster isn't going to help you. BUT it will help get up the hill!- maybe you're doing the wrong kind of riding? it's essentially a motorcycle with a bike industry's way of shifting gears. i like mototrcycles. e bikes look fun, but i just can't ride them where i do my bike. Nor do i want the occasional hikers, bears, and horses to have to compete with that traffic because in the end i will be the one that loses my right to pedal through.
PUT ROAD TIRES ON THEM AND SELL THEM AS TOURING E BIKES. KEEP THEM ON THE ROAD IF YOU MUST CONTINUE TO SELL PEOPLE YOU'RE STUPID FAD.
AND JUST WAIT TIL AN E BIKE BATTERY EXPLODES AND SETS A FOREST ON FIRE........
money- cuz thats all yall care about
me: "no."
It's great for the industry to make a buck, however, which definitely seems like the overall driving force.
More noobs on the trail hurting themselves is bad news for a lot of trail systems. Especially in places where there isn't a strong cycling culture. I can imagine a mom & 3 kids on e-bikes getting up a climb to find out the hard way that getting down is a bit more complicated. Fitness and dedication has always been a natural barrier to keep the weak and/or less skilled and/or less dedicated off harder trails.
I am also sick of the term noob being used to criticize new comers to the sport. Like somehow they are less deserving of being able to ride bikes than we are. We were all new at some point and everyone should be given respect on the trails regardless of skill.
Also the scenario you described could happen at any bike park or trail system. I have seen it many times at my local bike park where someone with a lower skill level attempts a trail that they shouldn't. Regardless of E Bikes its the riders responsibility to judge their skill level accordingly. Ebikes will have no effect at all on this.
I check the state of each trail before riding it (for fallen trees etc) so I can hit it full throttle, but last summer I started crashing into people pedalling up on their E-bikes. Mostly they were pretty obviously "new to the sport" (which many here consider a positive thing), so they knew nothing about how the trails were intended to be ridden. In the discussions that ensued they turned out to be smug and unreasonable...
So, in my opinion, E-bikes are a danger for everyone on the trails.
That’s 28 years I’m riding. 2 years ago, I had a thyroid cancer. It took me 2 month to correctly recover, and then I had a severe pancreatitis. It took me nearly one year to recover, and it’s still not really perfect. 2 years ago, I was riding a Mondraker Dune on my local trail. But with all my health problem, I was really tired, and I went from 30/40 km and 1500/2000 meters positive to 10 km and 400 meters/+. What were my choices? Improving my bike, so I bought a Dune Carbon, and I had 2 km to the ride. And I was still really tired. For example, for 10 km, I needed 3 or 4 days to recover. As an ex racer, it was really a pain in the ass to see myself so down, and not be able to do a sport I love. So, in august 2016, I bought an E-bike, a Mondraker Crafty XR. And I kept my Dune Carbon. I restart to ride as I was still struggling with health issue. Did it help me? Maybe, but more on a psychological aspect. And since January, I restart to ride my normal bike. But, as, with two children, and my job, and the lack of time, I keep riding also my e-bike when I don’t have enough time. I found a good balance.
I don’t follow people who keep saying “you have to earn it to enjoy it”, for me it’s completely stupid. I’m more on a “enjoy it and share”. During the time I spent without being able to ride correctly, I would have stayed at home and prevented myself to do one of the thing I really most. Riding my bike.
And I don't follow also the "no dig, no ride", because, it looks like "Bro, it's our trail, don't come here, you are not welcome".
Seriously, it's far away from the concept we all have about MTB, share, enjoy, have fun.
So, if somebody want an e-bike, good for him, if he wants a normal bike.... Good for him.
And E-bike is huge at the moment in my place, did it change something? No, i saw maybe 3 or 4 new faces, no more. But I see more my old friends who started to stop riding because they were around 50/60. By the way, I'm 40, and I really love my 2 bikes.
Oh, and one of my mates, who is from US told me a good story last time. (He is doing the EWS by the way, so not a slow fresh fish), He was against E-Bike, then he rode his bike in switzerland, then around Nice and Finale Ligure, and he understood the E-bike concept. He was able to ride everything, but understood that the terrain was so steep and so difficult, that for some person, E-bike could be really interesting for the normal people who does not ride everyday. For exemple, in my place, you have a minimum of 10 km to do to take the first trail, and not 10 flat Km, 10 km at 10/15%. And even the fire road are steep sometime.
@ Matt Wragg, thanks a lot.
@haters No problem if you don't understand, I'm having fun riding.
I don't bother that much about the discussion. I just think that the 250W is much too high imo.(depends on your weight off course). An extra 250W is a lot if your goal is just to 'assist' someone with pedaling. (unless he/she is really heavy)
To do the 40 mile trip to the official trails with all that water and kit would be awesome, getting there and still having energy, all thumbs up. But id still want the same playfulness I get from 30lb bike.
To use it on the unofficial trails 10miles away..id rather get the exercise. Same reason I don't use uplifts and prefer wild trails. Mountain biking is as much about my body as the adventure. But with it becoming a mainstream bro thing..the times they are a changing.
With that said, I could never ride an e-bike. it will literally weigh me down and ruin my experience.
"its only 10kg heavier"... this is a killer for me. We purposely buy components that are light weight for a reason. Changed out my forks and saved 2 lbs, its night and day!! How can I get used to riding a bike that is over 20 lbs heavier?!
It will never happen for me.
You will not see e bikes in the competitive side of the sport as it defeats the purpose. Without the pros riding them it will never be big. Its popular now because it new. But what about mopeds? We has assisted bike . bikes with motors long ago and how many mopeds do you see?
The is just a fad...
Once the hype and new toy smell wears off its just another dust collector. how many people under 20 are going to buy an ebike ?
I don't care if you ride one of these things or not, but ride them where motorized bike are allowed or dont ride them at all. They are motorized bikes, plain and simple. Perhaps the e-bike crowd should see this as an opportunity to develop their own riding areas. Whatever, just don't ruin the fun for everyone because your knees feel better when the bike is doing 3/4 of the work for you on the way up.
Evergreen, will have to deal with the fact they're dependent on state funds for everything they do, and subject to discrimination laws. Now, there is a world of difference between a pedal assist and a throttle, but that'll be fought out in the courts. Long term, assist bikes are here to stay, they'll get smarter, lighter, stronger, and in a few years common.
Chances are you opposed full suspension, dropper posts, hydraulic brakes, carbon, because I hear the same tired arguments, it'll be to easy, they'll take away our trails and Joey's will ruin them all anyways....nobody is that special, time moves on, deal with it.
Give the aftermarket a few months and there will be throttle conversion kits.
Embrace ebikes if you hate the sport and want to kill it.
Let's revisit this topic in 20 years when all of the egocentric clowns talking shit about ebikes are old enough to have bad knees or backs but still want to ride. 100% chance tunes will have changed.
Keeping horse shit and f*cktard headphone-wearing joggers off dedicated bike trails is more of a concern than ebikes will ever be.
In Vermont, 90% of the trails I ride are dedicated MTB trails. People trail run and walk on some of them, but the vast majority of traffic is from mountain bikers. These trails are maintained by mountain bike associations, and build specifically for us. We are incredibly lucky to have so much hiking, biking, and equestrian trail, all specific to their own uses, that we very rarely have on-trail conflicts. So here, (even though I think e-bikes are contrary to why I enjoy the sport), I think e-bikes would be fine on most trails.
Unfortunately, our situation is vastly different from the majority of the U.S. where there can be a crunch for space and trail access is limited and precious. In these areas, e-bikes are just a bottle of kerosene thrown into the fire...
I'm all for bikes and MTB, that's why I read this blog, but the author probably hasn't run at all (and please don't take this as an insult; nowadays everyone seems to have very shallow skins).
Running and cycling aren't quite comparable in intensity and the toll they take on your body. If you think running for 4h is comparable to riding for the same time (and that assuming the flattest of pavements for both), you are very wrong!
As an anecdote (which I know doesn't prove anything, but there are studies, look them up if you're interested): the longest ride I've done recently went for 6h (not counting dead time, stops, etc, only effective riding time): I went to some "nearby" waterfall for a swim, in total about 94km with 1.5km of long get-off-the-bike-and-push hard ascents because I live in "Valley Land", Mexico. The last kms of flat pavement arriving home I was keeping a great pace; I remember being very surprised of not being more tired. Of course, the next day I was in pain, but manageable.
I once ran for 22.5km (a bit more than 2h) in flat pavement and ended up almost walking the last kms. I couldn't move without pain for maybe 3-4 days after. The same day I couldn't even bend to pick things from the ground... And back then I was running a lot!
Another one: I regularly (3-4 times a week) go riding on local bikeways (less than 500m of ascent) for about 20-30km / 2h and I could take that as a warm-up for the rest of the day, while if I go for a 10k run I know that's all I'm going to accomplish that day... and the next.
Running and Cycling/Mountain Biking aren't even close.
Now, e-bikes are ok, I don't see all the fuss. If you like one and are fortunate enough to be able to buy one, by all means, get one! If you don't like them, stick with your old bicycle. I think it's very simple.
i am time poor. i want to ride more. i tolerate climbing. an ebike means i could ride more in a morning and be home to the family. its still exercise, it makes climbing fun and it sounds like they are still fun to descend.
does it mean the trails will be over run with idiots who shouldnt be on there? probably not. tech trails are still hard to ride.
do surf lessons mean that the good waves get crowded with kooks dropping in on everyone all the time, no?
if you think an e mountain bike is a motorbike then you are a moron. simple.
i dont have one but id sure like to try one.
if you dont like them dont buy one. just spend your money on 12 speed or boost or matching kit instead.
go ride your bike, whatever it is.
and please read the entire article properly.
Maybe North America will get it one day (and this applies to their trail access issues as well).
_MK
This was said at the very beginning of the topic and as far as technicality goes a e-bike would not have a engine because a engine is internal combustion device were as a motor is a electric and they whoever it was that wanted to name earlier on they too were bicycles with engines fitted to them.
So a e-bike is actually the truest form of a motorcycle just wait till the sierra club figures this or better yet let's get the Sierra Club to work with us and protect our trails from what could potentially be the worst possible thing to hurt our access to the trails we all care about so much.
The curious thing about ebikes and their "European invasion" is what they show about the difference between the riding mentality of the two continents.
In the US we place a high value on liberty. In Europe they value equality. Our value of liberty lends itself to divisions between the DHers, singlespeeders, bikepackers, flowtrailers, and all other self identifying user groups. This fragmentation beaks down our collective bargaining power when it comes to trail negation and undercuts our liberty to build and maintain new trails. It is reflected with the responses written in this ebike thread - "This is the way I do it and it is the only way it should be done".
Europe values equality over liberty and this leads to a better relationship between subsets of the biking community and is reflected with their larger adoption of the ebike user group. This, in turn, increases the participation in biking communities and is reflected in the standardization of regulations, better access to trails and more streamlined adoption of new trails.
Will ebikes kill the trails that we love? Doubtful. Will the American mentality of existing user groups towards this new segment of users place in peril the trails that we love and slow future development? Absolutely.
I personally do not take Strava that serious but to a StravaTw@, I'm sure having your KOM taken by a guy who probably didn't even break a sweat would be infuriating!
Is that really still our sport?
I see e-bikes in a different light. Imagine a DH bike with one of these tiny motors. You ride the trail with a smaller weight penalty than one of these big, heavy batteries we currently see. Then when you get to the bottom, you put your seat up and you can actually ride up again instead of pushing. It may also eliminate the need for uplift services, which environmentally probably cause more damage to fireroads than e-bikes.
The arguments in these comments are 20% unknowns ("They might impact X, we shouldn't risk it") and 80% self-righteousness. A greater population on which to build cycling advocacy can only help us. If you're not in a race and you find people passing you offensive, get over yourself.
I have seen this same essential argument play out for years at Skateparks and let me tell you it helps absolutely no one and ruins the experience for everyone. Every skatepark is full of people who either skateboard, bmx, scooter, mountain bike or rollerblade. Everyone is there for the same reason, to have fun doing the sport that they prefer. However, its inevitable that one user group thinks they are better and more deserving of using the space which leads to fights and confrontations despite the facility being used more or less in the same fashion. This ruins the fun for EVERYONE. The same thing is destined to happen with Ebikes.
Entitled mountain bikers are going to whine and stamp their feet "But its not mountain biking...wah wah wah, I am better than you cause I use my legs and I am so good at exercise." If you don't think its mountain biking that is totally fine but it does not change the fact that everyone has a right to have fun and share the environment where multiple sports can be done. So go ahead critics and keep whining like children and see if that stops people from riding Ebikes. Surprise! It wont. What it will accomplish however is making a nice trail a hostile environment where everyone is fighting with one another about something completely trivial that wont change YOUR fundamental experience. Could the trails be busier with more people outside enjoying themselves? Absolutely, but that is something that you will have to learn to live with just as I have with busier skateparks and guess what? Its kinda nice seeing tons of people outside having fun and you learn to appreciate it.
Do I like it when I am at the skatepark on my BMX and there are 30 scooter kids ripping around? Not really. However, because I am an actual human being I can recognize that they have just as much of a right to be there as I do and I share the facility and end up having fun anyway. I won't let it ruin my day and neither should you.
So how about everyone grow up and learn to share
Ah...aren't carbon 29ners with 12 speed drive trains that easily weigh under 30lbs the new fitness barrier reducer. My distance, speed and fun factor has increase dramatically simply with how much has evolved in the last 6 years with mtb bikes. Even the first dropper post I bought six years ago increased my speed noticeably with reduced stopping and better body positioning for riding all aspects of trail. E mountain bikes are not mountain bikes, pure and simple. No matter how close the industry is telling you emtb bikes are to real mountain bikes, it is a lie. The sale of bikes, all bikes, never really dramatically increases year to year. In fact, they are really the same from year to year. Goes ask the NBDA. With the increased competition among manufactures who have blown up their business too much and want to sustain what they have they look to any new idea as good, practically. Sorry for the problem with digression.
I've had one interaction with an e-bike rider on a climbing trail on Mt. Seymour and it was not pleasant. He caught up to me and my buddy on a hairpin and tried passing us. We're not slow and not fast but regardless of who was riding what, don't be a dick on a bike. maybe he was carrying an e-bike stigma and decided to take it out on us?
And they are sweating and they are getting fit and they are supporting our sport.
I am in sales and one easy calculation is, selling bigger volume is decreasing the price.
So as more bikes are out there as cheaper the parts will get.
I did a test ride day on an e-bike because I am lazy and was looking for strong assistance uphill.
But I found out, the support is very small and I pushed the pedals as hard as usual.
It is just normal if you pedal a bike that you use all the power you have, the difference is, on an e-bike you are faster on the top of the hill.
The result of that day was, my average heart rate was higher than usual, because going uphill was more fun and you start pushing for more, especially on the technical climbs.
I did three times more descending on one day and trails which were usually just for transition to the next DH were getting kind of descending feeling, even if they had a little rise.
Lumping pedal assist MtB's together with human powered MtB's WILL HINDER TRAIL ACCESS - guaranteed. This is precisely what the equestrian and/or hiking lobbies need to "prove" the danger of allowing or sharing trail access in the western US (and just wait Europe, it's coming). It was hard enough to fight for trail access before, now it's much harder.
So thanks for that :/
E-bikes are fine, but anyone promoting their off-road use had better also reach into their wallets to contribute to the real hard work of attaining, and keeping trail access for MtB.
Locally, I have friends whom I would ride with, even if they showed up on their e-bike, but my voice and vote will continue to against e-bike use at my local trails. In the US we don't have the EU definition for the e-bike established. I also have zero faith that operators would remain adherent to such or any regulation that might be adopted. It's not that I hate the idea of a pedal-assist bike outright, but concern over if or how we can draw such a line of distinction, and all of the arguments over exactly where it should be drawn, who keeps pushing the limits of that line, and who ignores it anyway. Something like human power v. any motor, is a very clear distinction that would be hard for anyone to argue. Add that to all of the pissing already going on for mountain bikers to get or maintain trail access as it is, I think we need to keep the argument that clear (at least for now).
1) When did mountain bikers become like roadies
2) When did suffering become something to aspire to for a hobby?
3) When did FUN leave this sport to be replaced by this weird crossfit type of attitude of suffering should be the goal.
I started riding because it is FUN not because I enjoy some climb as a personal challenge, climbs suck and are a necessary evil.
If you don't like ebikes don't buy one also don't try to stop those of us that do from having no place to ride them. Jealousy is not becoming to those in this hobby or at least that is how mountain bikers used to be.
American is actually pretty ass-backwards...if you take all the folks who live here and put them into a pot (disregard what part of the country the live in)...you will find that half of them still believe that women, minorities, anything that is not white male is innately an inferior kind of human....
that being said, e-bikes deserve their own category and their own fricken trails...it is in no way mountain biking...biking requires human power...
this shouldn't even be a debate...e-bikes need to go away, forever.
Guy 2 - "It's not a car, its a Tesla, it runs on batteries."
Guy 1 - :scratches head:
Thus I feel that there is little difference from an electric bike to an electric motorcycle: it's a motor driven mean of conveyance and therefor no longer should be considered a "mountain bike" or used on trails made for such.
And BTW i don't like e bikes, have ridden some, would never buy
His bike has assisted pedaling where he can choose the level of assist this way controling his pulse rate so he doesnt go to high as his age is dangerous.
so for all you dumb f*ckers who hate on it, just think that this can help many people and families
I don't mountain bike for exercise, I do it because it's fun as hell. The exercise is obviously a nice byproduct and I like to push my fitness levels but at the end of the day I wouldn't do it if it wasn't fun and I would still do it even if it had zero affect on my physical fitness and health.
What's not fun is spending an hour laboring up a boring ass fire road for a 15-20 minute descent. What's not fun is making a weekend trip to mountains with 50+ miles of trails and only being able to ride a fraction of them before I'm beat for the day. I only have time to ride on the weekends which means 1. I don't get into good enough shape to make multiple trips up and down a mountain in a day under my own power and 2. I need to make the most out of the time I do have to ride.
That is why I like the idea of pedal assisted e-bikes. I want to get the most out of the time and money spent on weekend mountain trips and if e-bikes help me get up easier so I can ride down more frequently in a day then so be it. They are not motorcycles. They are not the same as any kind of motorized bike with a throttle. They aren't going to make ruts or destroy berms. Quite frankly, the power a professional rider puts to the ground is probably more than I would put down on any pedal assisted bike.
Now, fully motorized bikes with a throttle and no pedals are a different story. Something that is essentially an e-dirt bike probably isn't appropriate for bicycle trails but those aren't being mass made like the Levo. A bicycle that gives your pedaling a boost is still a f*cking bicycle no matter how much anyone wants to deny it.
Not everyone who thinks fitness is important is immediately a dork.
I'm not saying your other points don't have merit.
Part of the reason I like cycling, of all disciplines, is that you have to work for it the entire time.
The only one I fear is the dedicated mountain bike. The other ones really help folks with prior injuries or maybe physical disability get out and ride hard pack gravel nature trails or rides along the beach and of course for commuting... But the E-bike? It worries me a little more being as I have already found a guy at our local trails riding around and just smashing up climbs on his E-bike and eating up the softer trails.
Now obviously not every E-biker has disregard for vulnerable trails and just goes up and trashes trails but it's showing that there are already folks doing so.
Also, I like Strava, I like all my buddies and I striving to be in the top 10 of all the climbs and descents. It's fun chirping eachother if someone beats someone by a few seconds and what not... With E-bikes, f*cking forget it unless there is a way to tell if they are on an E-bike no sense going after a KOM if buddy with record did it with team BOSCHE on his side lol.
I think the whole f*cking anti E-bike thing really doesn't go much farther than Pinkbike... When people come into my shop, just average folks (the 98% of people coming to a bike shop)they see these bikes and immediately gravitate towards them... So why wouldn't I sell them a f*cking 4000 dollar bike if that's what they want? Remember want and need are different but a "need" doesn't sell as well.
Only.........
The Ritchie Rude wannabees riding mach chicken, going off trail, and skidding every switchback is exactly what contributes to some trails being closed to MTBs here in North America.
Ultimately, I believe whether standard or eMTB, most trail access issues will continue to be more about the rider than the bike.
(PS motorbikes are cool, on dedicated trails/tracks).
Get off your high horse and learn to share the trails with others. you're going to have to do it anyway so why not now rather than later?
Simple - it's just a bicycle with a little assistance. Like a little helping hand gently pushing you up the climb to the top or allowing you to keep the pace with your friends who are taking you around their favorite trail.
The animosity here is what is fueling the challenge of access. If everyone just realized that these are just heavier bikes with a little assistance, I doubt we'd still be discussing ebikes like this and would be more in line with how they are viewed in other countries.
If you are an average cyclist and all your friends are world champion XC riders I can see how that might work out well...
If it really was just a little assistance and limited to maybe 20km/h I could probably get on board but that is NOT what the industry is pushing here.
How about if you are an average cyclist and your buddy/girlfriend who is on the ebike and is new to the sport?
250w max and 25kph is not much - I would bet that the vast majority of average riders will have no problem keeping up or exceeding that.
250W is a lot. And this is the 1.0 versions we're seeing.
CM!
Get used to sharing the trails with new users because they are here. We won't stop them any more than the hikers and environmentalists stopped us. Stop whining about cheaters and go ride, walk or whatever it is you do.
A 3000 watt ebike could probably destroy trails, and who's going to be policing the trails and stop those bikes?
Much easier to just ban all ebikes in the trails.
I'm not actually against them in shuttle/downhill primary trail areas as a replacement for vehicle shuttling, and I think there could be a place for them on some designated trails or systems specifically managed to include them. But I steadfastly believe that they should not be allowed on non-motorized trail systems or trails not specifically designated for their use.
I'm heavily involved in advocacy for our local club and this position is generally shared by most, although probably a bit more liberal towards them than others opinions. We advocates have serious concerns about the long term impacts related to how they'll change the use of trail systems and how they'll interact with other users as they're capable of using the trail system in fundamentally different ways than they're currently used.
En moped som har godkänts enligt äldre svenska bestämmelser (typintyg före 17 juni 2003) tillhör även den moped klass II (s.k. 30-moppe)."
www.transportstyrelsen.se/sv/vagtrafik/Fordon/Fordonsregler/Moped/Moped-klass-II
How about some descriptive adjectives that aren't blatantly sexist. Or just exhibit some level of normalcy and morality in your writing.
In a sport where we should encourage community, female riders and inclusiveness, we often find ourselves as a hateful, regressive group.
You should leave Canada and come join us here in the states, Trump's words most likely align to your ideology.