I occasionally hear mountain bikers say that they don't care about climbing efficiency at all. "I'll get there when I get there" is something I often hear.
But do you ever wonder why pro mountain bikers often train on lightweight, efficient road bikes? If the goal is to get stronger and fitter, wouldn't a less efficient bike be just as good, if not better?
Victorian economist William Stanley Jevons might have an insight into this. In 1865, he noticed that whenever steam engines got more efficient, people used more coal, not less. This phenomenon has become known as the Jevons paradox, which occurs when improved efficiency leads to lower costs, and lower costs lead to more energy use.
A more recent example is the increase in vehicle fuel efficiency has probably contributed to an even bigger increase in driving in many countries, as it makes going by car more cost-competitive when compared to public transport, cycling, or even living in a walkable neighbourhood.
More fuel efficiency = more fuel? Source: European Commission.
If this seems totally counter-intuitive, think of it like Tim Hortons offering a two-for-one deal on donuts, hoping you'll spend
more money, not less.
What's this got to do with cycling?You often hear bike reviewers say that efficient bikes seem to push you to pedal harder, while inefficient ones encourage you to take it easy. I've experienced this myself - I used to ride all kinds of test bikes home from the office on the same hilly route, and whenever I was commuting on a road bike or XC bike, I'd usually try harder and break more of a sweat than on an enduro bike.
This makes sense in the context of the Jevons paradox because, with a more efficient bike, you get more bang for your buck in the form of extra speed for every extra watt you put in. Your effort is more rewarded.
This means that with a more efficient bike, you're not just going faster and further for every unit of power you can squeeze out of your legs; you might put down more power too, and end up going even further or faster than you'd expect from the efficiency gains alone.
You might even get fitter as a result, or squeeze an extra lap into your lunch ride.
What makes a bike efficient?By efficiency, I mean how much distance or height gain you can achieve for a given amount of energy input at the crank. There are several factors that affect this.
The most obvious one is weight. But as we
discussed in a previous article, saving a kilogram (2.2 lb) from your bike will only make you go about 0.2% to 1% faster, depending on how steep the hill is. Of course, there is scope to save more than one kilo when comparing enduro bikes to XC bikes, or if you include the rider and riding kit, but when comparing similar bikes, it's probably not the biggest factor.
In
another article, we found the difference in climbing speed between a Nukeproof Reactor (a 130 mm travel trail bike) and a Nukeproof Giga (a 170 mm travel "parkduro" bike *sighs*) was less than 1% when using the same tires. Yet in the same test, we found that swapping from trail tires to Enduro tires (thicker casing, stickier rubber, more aggressive tread) made the bike go over 4% slower for the same power.
An
idler pulley costs at least 2% in drivetrain efficiency, and even the choice of
chain lube can affect efficiency by more than 1%.
Suspension efficiency (pedal bob), geometry, chain line and more can play a role too. The overall result, according to
previous efficiency tests, is that some bikes can be as much as 10% less efficient than others in the same category, meaning they went 10% slower for the same power.
What about e-bikes?If getting more reward for your effort encourages you to pedal harder, does that mean an ebike is the ultimate training tool? Not necessarily. The Jevons paradox is not a law of nature; it's only observed occasionally.
For example, LED lightbulbs are at least four times more efficient than incandescent bulbs. This may lead to more widespread use of lighting, but not four times more, so LED bulbs are thought to have significantly reduced electricity use around the world.
So how does it work out with e-bikes? One
study had 33 mountain bikers ride a regular bike and an electric mountain bike for one lap each and compared the effort with heart rate monitors. The average heart rate was similar on both bikes, suggesting riders weren't taking it easier on the e-MTB (although they were riding for less time).
With some motors, it is possible to soft-pedal and let the electrons do most of the work. On the other hand, several e-bike converts insist they ride more often than they otherwise would, tackling steeper climbs and more trails. So, it probably depends on the rider.
I've had posts seemingly disappear too, and have asked mods who said it was not deleted - dunno what happened. This was even pre-Levy's-alien-abduction and nothing even remotely controversial. He's still listed on the staff page, still pops up as being online (if you goto your profile page it will list anyone you follow who's online). I have hope but I've dropped trying to discuss it b/c the Russian Chinese downvote army will come after you because you can't say words they don't agree with.
Assuming he's telling the truth, he just had a TON of time off banked, and he's taking it. Nothing wrong with that.
5..4..3..2..1..
Still here? Maybe it was an alien abduction.
-looks like a session
-let the ibis do the work
-just roll it!
-reece Wilson/Wallace jokes
-Where’s Levy?
Does that "send it" mentality come from external inputs (you juast watched Rampage, and youre now off to huck that 2' drop youve been eyeing up), or internal ones (the feeling of speed, drifting, sliding, schralping while actually riding)
i figure its a combination, somewhat, but I tend to get a littlemore pumped up while actually riding.
I have a big bike, shod with stiff wheels, good tires, great brakes, and loads of well damed suspension, then I have a little bike, with more sketchy versions of both (I use it for coaching, and mellower rides/terrain)
the "edge" where I find myself hootering and hollering is found closer on the small bike (which is still incredibly capable), and ensures less dramatic outcomes if it all goes wrong. Big bike, I need to be on the ragged edge of what ispossible to get a similar feeling, and I enjoy being there, but the consequences are many when I frig it up.
If you have the opportunity, give a short travel, good geo, small bike a try, Man are they a blast!
I agree with the thought that I am almost never hammering a climb on my privateer. Could I yes, would it be a detriment to my descending? Yes. But on years that I'm on the trainer or hardtail more often, I find my climbing and descending speeds on the larger trail bike to increase dramatically as well.
To take to extremes (I know you were talking mid-travel) if I ride a hardtail its great but there are always sections I wish I could have been on the big one and hammered it.
Im not sure I ride tamer stuff faster on the big bike, I know it doesnt "feel" faster, cause a lot of the tamer trails also happen to be tighter trails, which seem to slow me down more, so its not where I "push" I guess.
That being said, sections that "feel" faster on the small bike, are prolly not actually faster at all, but the sensation of speed happens at a lower speed/exposure than it does on the big bike.
Really just lucky that I have the opportunity to play on these different bikes, in areas that are fun and challenging with people that I want to ride with
A good shorter travel bike is a great addition, and maybe even a better "one bike" than a big enduro bike
the short travel bike is a real blast, and can keep me in touch 90% of the time with a fast group
Much respect for those of you that opt for the hardtail over a short travel bike
But there will always be times when you really wish you had the trophy truck and you brought the crown vic.
A lot of times, less is more fun and makes you appreciate "more" when you need it.
I have a V1 forbidden druid frame (150F/130R) showing up next week to scratch that FS itch, must say I am a little nervous it maybe too capable and get boring real quick vs the enduro HT's I am enjoying now, but we'll see...
but let me say, that just doesn't happen. As someone that sets maybe a thousand bikes a year up for people to test, The number one way I can tell that someone is going to buy a 160 bike, is that they show up wanting to ride the new 120/130 bike. LMAO. people ride them, then go.....give me the longer travel version!!!! It's not even their fault. the big bike pedals 99.5% as well, and also has more forgiveness. Add to that, the vaaaaaaast majority of people are of middling skill, precious time, and only have 1 bike.
TLDR: all the cool kids say "short travel is sick brah!" but no one really buys them...
Until recently I had a 160/160 and a hardtail. Loved both, but also got a kick out of riding stuff that scared me on the FS on the hardtail too. Definitely only an average rider so that's probably equivalent of a canal path to most people on here.
But the hardtail did beat me up a lot, so I replaced it with a short travel trail bike. I get a real sense of it being like a rocket ship, but with loads of comfort added in.
How tall are you and what size did you get?
I get that. Like Levy used to analogise driving the old Mini about.
Good comments dude
Nothing is as fast as a crapbox, manual transmission, rental car in South America
Goos luck out there with the Druid, its on my shortlist
I'm lucky enough to have a big bike, and small bike, both of which are very capable.
Sometimes one is more fun than the other, and sometimes I'm left wishing I was on the other bike, but thats pretty rare.
My small bike is still very capable, just not as much of a truck as my Spire.
The bigger bike affords more speed, but that sensation of speed comes at a higher consequence, that same sensation can be found on a smaller bike, with less consequence, can we agree on that?
I get the opportunity to ride differently than most people, in the fact that I get to spend a lot of time on the bike. My partner rides, so its something we do together, I have a flexible work schedule, so I can go more often, I live very close to several great trail networks, I have a long riding season, and I coach mountain biking, so I'm out with varied levels of riders.
In some of those instances, the big bike is overkill, and the small bike is a better option for more fun.
Lets be honest, everywhere has moderate trails, if theres mtb trails theres likely way more blue trails than black or double blacks where you live.
The luxury of having two bikes is great, in reality, my wife rides a an in between bike at 160/150, so Im even more spoiled for options...
I'm stoked for you!
It is not as stiff as the big bike, and theyre basically the same weight, but its a tonne of fun on more moderate trails where the big bike is a bit too much.
That Scor, the new Optic (HP/idler) the Element, and the new Druid look like a good time.
I wold love to give that BC40, and Blur a try as well
Its rad you've found what works for you!
Keep having a kick ass time out there!
There are several Druids, around here, and they are under riders that are exceptionally fast. They are great looking bikes!
An old Honda Civic feels fast af at 60km/h, my Diesel 1tonne longbox, not at all.
Like we all have different experiences, different terrain, different body proportions, different wants/needs/likes, different abilities, and all those small differences add up to, well big differences!
All in, as long as youre having a good time, and you can revel in the fact that others are also having a good time, and those good times might/are/can be/are great if they are, different, then everyone should be in a good place!
"One study had 33 mountain bikers ride a regular bike and an electric mountain bike for one lap each and compared the effort with heart rate monitors. The average heart rate was similar on both bikes, suggesting riders weren't taking it easier on the e-MTB (although they were riding for less time)."
The average heart rate was decidedly not the same, and in fact meaningfully and statistically different, with a mean of 145 for the e-bike group and 155 for the mountain bike group with statistical significance at p.001. That's a big difference -- not no difference -- while also being statistically different.
With a mean Max HR for the sample being 182, that puts the mountain bike group at an average HR of 85% of Max HR vs 79% for the e-bike group. I'm not a physiologist, but I believe in their literature there is agreement that roughly 78% of MHR represents LT1, and 86% of MHR represents LT2 -- coincidentally, the values the control and treatment groups both averaged. In simple terms, LT2 represents your lactate threshold. If you've tested your lactate threshold, it isn't pleasant. LT1 represents the level at which your body can clear elevated lactate and should be sustainable for hours.
I know that isn't the purpose of this opinion piece, but after finally reading the study, I thought it would be worthwhile to correct the misconceptions around the findings.
Hope you got out lots yourself!
Im not always positive, but I do try my damndest
I'm originally from further East than I am now, that Canadian shield rock, with wet fall leaves, makes for some great spicy riding.
I'll take you up on that offer if I ever make my way out out east to ride bakes again.
I had a slaughter for a few season, it felt great. I went back to DHR II but I'll go back to semi-slick when the DHR II is all worn.
Still out-climbing and out cornering my buddies on minions and big lugged tires and shamelessly running away from them on the straights All that body work on the bike leaves me gassed on downs but overall it's my preferred set up and is overall faster over the ride.
When the big tires come on it's frightening how fast the corners can be taken with the techniques developed.
Wish someone made a 29 x 2.6 semi slick I also really like big tires as it smooths out the roots and rocks a bit better.
If it's not loose,deep mud,it can work well.
it's not the thunderburt grade semi slick I often run on the rear but looks great
For example I love the Rock Razor, but I don't think it has ever existed in a supergravity style casing, AND fast rolling rubber. Thick casings are unfortunately always paired with soft rubber.
Does the slaughter exist in that combo? And at less than 60€?
The ebike thing is interesting in that regard, too. I've only demoed e-MTBs so far, but I found that I got about the same amount of vert and mileage out of the much smaller (430Wh) battery on a Relay as out of a Repeater (630Wh), and did so in about the same amount of time with very similar average speed, despite the lower assist from the motor. There's just enough assist to make the climb trail fun, so I push myself (and have to push myself a little more than on the full fat eeb).
Goes to show how much of all of this is between the ears. Part of how much I enjoy my new Sentinel has probably to do with it being a much better, more composed bike than my old Process, so that right there makes me want to ride more and add an extra lap. Having even a little bit of fun on the climbs helps (I'm a hedonistic rider - climbing for the sake of pushing myself is not really my cup of tea), and that's good for some extra laps right there as well. Hopefully, that all leads to more riding to an extent that increases fitness, which then in turn decreases the suckiness of climbing, reinforcing the whole thing some more, so I'll get more riding. Or, as the eeb contingent always crows, more miles-more smiles...
Got one Michelin DH22 for bikepark/ugly trails an the other one with DD Assegai. That Michelin tire is painfully slow compared to any other tire I know,grip is awesome but it got a huge penalty with it in rolling speed.
(which are a regular sight on _trailbikes_ though)
- Fire road : seated, no prob
- High power short climb : antisquat keeps the bike stiff, no prob
- Long semi steep tech climb : I have to stand, I feel like on a pogo stick, it's a PAIN.
So yeah, I agree with your point if we're talking only about fire roads. But for all the potentially fun tech climbing, it's night and day between a Spur or a Spire even if both have DH tyres.
@Hayek a burlied spur will be less efficient than a light build, but the frame is 1kg lighter than the spire, so that's a good starting point to build a light ish and capable bike.
Shuttle laps or I'm not coming.
For me this is also true on lower angle descents. I'll push harder with the XC bike because it feels so responsive and a bit on the edge all the time. On my trail bike I'm only enthused when things get steep and rough.
E bikes probably don’t work for that purpose because you never have to actually push yourself. There is always the temptation of the turbo button as an easy cop out when tires. And human nature means almost everyone will use it eventually.
Next you'll tell me that bikes that descend better, also go downhill better, and make you want to go downhill more!
What does Jevon say to this: if I go the same distance (to work) every day, I should have more training effect since it is harder..?
Normally, drivetrain drag with a clean chain and top performing lube is only about 5 watts, so the idler is actually nearly doubling the drag. If the idler only added 2% of the 5 watt total it would be an immeasurably small difference in anything but a super precise lab test.
www.pinkbike.com/photo/24097396
A robust mount on both sides of the idler is under rated, alot of force is pulling the chain and any flex in the idler or uneven load on the bearings will increase friction, also worth noting idler bikes can better isolate the anti squat with outside factors like chainring size and which gear you're in having less influence so in reality they can create an improved pedalling platform if designed with that intention which not all are.
My point being not all idler bikes should be judged with the same efficiency losses.
So I agree
Used to ride bike parks every week but the cost of trips adds up.
Breaking bumps,destroyed trails and overcrowded days with chair lineups got old too.
Now focusing on riding more trailheads, spending 75%+ of my time climbing, my tire setup has incredible grip but is so slow.
Need more middle of the road grip tires.
Currently on:
Magic Mary Super Gravity Ultrasoft
Continental Xynotal Enduro Soft
And thinking about:
Magic Mary Super Trail Ultrasoft
Nobby Nic Super trail Soft
How much of a difference would actually be on the way up?
One thing I did find that may be useful to you, where the cables leave the back of the top tube and enter the swingarm, may want to put a few layers of shrink wrap or other right there to keep the cable housings from floating in and out of the swingarm hole. Some folks use zip ties, I like a cleaner look if I have options. If it isn’t isolated it looks like it wears that area down, surely the more grit,mud etc in the area increases the wear. Cheers! Other than that, no snags at all in the frame up build.
Aerobic variances aside, I have def noticed an increase in strength which seems intuitive as throwing around an additional 15lbs of a bike for double the altitude descending certainly works your body out harder from an anaerobic standpoint and I think that point about ebikes isnt made enough. I think this benefit is major for the dads or time constrained riders of the world. Its hard enough to get in 3 solid rides in a week let alone time for weight lifting and other fitness goals bc if its me Ill always choose to ride than do any other activity. This benefit of ebikes is kind of a two birds w/ one stone thing. That said as winter closes in Ill be on my hardtail more so it will be interesting to see how the metric trends move in the coming months relative to previous years.
Also, one of the upper comments was interesting re: heavy casing tires nullifying benefits of climbing efficiency and I think there is a ton of truth to that, at least for me. Whats more, to what Quinny has been shouting about, heavy bikes just plain ride better descending. Add to that that Im 235lbs on a good day so I tend to build my accoustics to be burley enough to handle that rider weight well on the descents which results in pig bikes. Enter my ebike, Ive set PRs on all my strava descent segments by around a 5-10% improvement gain in time which is sizable and I entirely attribute that to 1. the heavier bike that didnt sacrifice on component strength just smashes through stuff and 2) more energy on tap for the descents as a result of energy saved on the climbs. So in total Kcal output on ebikes is relatively the same as accoustic, just a mix shift in how those kcals are spent up vs down and over the course of the ride time. Overall likley an aerobic loss but an anaerobic gain w/ ebikes.
Curious if any other ebike converts have observed any of this.
Anyways, Ebike propaganda and diatribe over. Now Ill go F myself lol.
The 2 biggest downsides are battery related pollution and price.
Then the weight/charging which take away some peace of mind (hike/bike scenarios, carrying the bike in stairs to an apartment, more stressful to keep it in a not so secure place...).
To each their own about how much weight you put into those matters.
But the amount of fun is quite addictive... Ah also that, a part of (an already instant-satisfaction addicted) me fears like the "normal" biking might loose its taste more and more, kind of like adding sugar to every meal, until the day you decide to consume less of it
Depends where the weight is; unsprung rotating mass makes a HUGE difference.
youtu.be/Aq4yliFHBO8?si=FlDTpZwP5mwFC3sH
1. Are you shuttling back to top?
2. Is your ride time sensitive?
3. Do you want more exercise?
I can ride anything I want because I’m fit and I stay fit.
It makes me cringe when people who are not fit complain about bike weight or spend more on lightweight bikes/components.
Just lose some weight and get in shape, problem solved.
"HI COLIN!"