Opinion: Why Climbing Efficiency Matters More Than You Think

Oct 20, 2023
by Seb Stott  
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I occasionally hear mountain bikers say that they don't care about climbing efficiency at all. "I'll get there when I get there" is something I often hear.

But do you ever wonder why pro mountain bikers often train on lightweight, efficient road bikes? If the goal is to get stronger and fitter, wouldn't a less efficient bike be just as good, if not better?

Victorian economist William Stanley Jevons might have an insight into this. In 1865, he noticed that whenever steam engines got more efficient, people used more coal, not less. This phenomenon has become known as the Jevons paradox, which occurs when improved efficiency leads to lower costs, and lower costs lead to more energy use.

A more recent example is the increase in vehicle fuel efficiency has probably contributed to an even bigger increase in driving in many countries, as it makes going by car more cost-competitive when compared to public transport, cycling, or even living in a walkable neighbourhood.

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More fuel efficiency = more fuel? Source: European Commission.

If this seems totally counter-intuitive, think of it like Tim Hortons offering a two-for-one deal on donuts, hoping you'll spend more money, not less.

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What's this got to do with cycling?

You often hear bike reviewers say that efficient bikes seem to push you to pedal harder, while inefficient ones encourage you to take it easy. I've experienced this myself - I used to ride all kinds of test bikes home from the office on the same hilly route, and whenever I was commuting on a road bike or XC bike, I'd usually try harder and break more of a sweat than on an enduro bike.

This makes sense in the context of the Jevons paradox because, with a more efficient bike, you get more bang for your buck in the form of extra speed for every extra watt you put in. Your effort is more rewarded.

This means that with a more efficient bike, you're not just going faster and further for every unit of power you can squeeze out of your legs; you might put down more power too, and end up going even further or faster than you'd expect from the efficiency gains alone.

You might even get fitter as a result, or squeeze an extra lap into your lunch ride.

Tires
Tire choice is one of the biggest factors in climbing efficiency.

What makes a bike efficient?

By efficiency, I mean how much distance or height gain you can achieve for a given amount of energy input at the crank. There are several factors that affect this.

The most obvious one is weight. But as we discussed in a previous article, saving a kilogram (2.2 lb) from your bike will only make you go about 0.2% to 1% faster, depending on how steep the hill is. Of course, there is scope to save more than one kilo when comparing enduro bikes to XC bikes, or if you include the rider and riding kit, but when comparing similar bikes, it's probably not the biggest factor.

In another article, we found the difference in climbing speed between a Nukeproof Reactor (a 130 mm travel trail bike) and a Nukeproof Giga (a 170 mm travel "parkduro" bike *sighs*) was less than 1% when using the same tires. Yet in the same test, we found that swapping from trail tires to Enduro tires (thicker casing, stickier rubber, more aggressive tread) made the bike go over 4% slower for the same power.

An idler pulley costs at least 2% in drivetrain efficiency, and even the choice of chain lube can affect efficiency by more than 1%.

Suspension efficiency (pedal bob), geometry, chain line and more can play a role too. The overall result, according to previous efficiency tests, is that some bikes can be as much as 10% less efficient than others in the same category, meaning they went 10% slower for the same power.

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What about e-bikes?

If getting more reward for your effort encourages you to pedal harder, does that mean an ebike is the ultimate training tool? Not necessarily. The Jevons paradox is not a law of nature; it's only observed occasionally.

For example, LED lightbulbs are at least four times more efficient than incandescent bulbs. This may lead to more widespread use of lighting, but not four times more, so LED bulbs are thought to have significantly reduced electricity use around the world.

So how does it work out with e-bikes? One study had 33 mountain bikers ride a regular bike and an electric mountain bike for one lap each and compared the effort with heart rate monitors. The average heart rate was similar on both bikes, suggesting riders weren't taking it easier on the e-MTB (although they were riding for less time).

With some motors, it is possible to soft-pedal and let the electrons do most of the work. On the other hand, several e-bike converts insist they ride more often than they otherwise would, tackling steeper climbs and more trails. So, it probably depends on the rider.




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241 Comments
  • 191 0
 Where is the code for 2 for 1 on donuts?
  • 102 8
 I was hoping the Tim Hortons donuts was going to bring Levy back.
  • 47 2
 @ReformedRoadie: I don’t think we can mention Levy or PB will delete your comment!
  • 29 1
 @ReformedRoadie: where did he go?
  • 8 0
 Pinkbike stop dragging up the hill and give us more field tests....
  • 6 0
 @mikedk: for a ride on his Donut
  • 11 9
 @ReformedRoadie: Literally came to ask if the Horton ref meant Levy was invoved here. Loving that ya got 3 Russian / Chinese downvotes for saying He Who Must Not Be Named...
  • 53 10
 @dresendsit: I think from now on its just (downvote) He Who Must Not Be Named. While I'm still beefed that PB / Levy didn't just say anything (downvote) which I'll never get over, he's at least still in the PB podcast image, gets ref'd by staff often and whatever - I could give a shit about they why...just thought (downvote) some announcement for such a prominent figure was warranted. Still - I hope homey is enjoying a hot cup of monster on the overpass looking for ufos and sliding down a gnarly slope on a downcountry bike in lycra...whatever. The guy is revered & missed is all (downvote).
  • 15 9
 @Mtn-Goat-13: on one of the podcasts threads a while ago I had made a comment about "where's Levy" and someone straight up deleted it. Wouldn't be surprised if they delete this too. They keep saying he's been on break? If he's going to be on 6 mo+ break, how hard would it be for them to just make a post about how he's taking a break? Or does anyone have an update on what is actually going on? Like was he fired? So weird...
  • 26 7
 @dresendsit: No idea and while I'll never not be bummed about him going MIA w/o a word...what online highly public entity does that w/o even a basic diplomatic lie? But - there's a downvote army here that demands you're "invading his privacy" by saying his name or even speculating. He was a public figure who divulged 1000's of bits about his life and then did a SRAM podcast interview that released this June with all kinds more personal information no one asked for so - yeah, we're jerks for asking about our favorite and most hiliarious PB guy I guess.

I've had posts seemingly disappear too, and have asked mods who said it was not deleted - dunno what happened. This was even pre-Levy's-alien-abduction and nothing even remotely controversial. He's still listed on the staff page, still pops up as being online (if you goto your profile page it will list anyone you follow who's online). I have hope but I've dropped trying to discuss it b/c the Russian Chinese downvote army will come after you because you can't say words they don't agree with.
  • 14 1
 @Mtn-Goat-13: pink bike is absolutely deleting comments.
  • 1 1
 we need a 2 for 1 code on grim donuts!
  • 4 0
 @ReformedRoadie: He went full Eat, Pray, Love..but with different options
  • 9 1
 @Mtn-Goat-13: It's not without a word, he's popped up repeatedly to address it in comments, you can see this just by looking at his Pinkbike profile: www.pinkbike.com/u/mikelevy

Assuming he's telling the truth, he just had a TON of time off banked, and he's taking it. Nothing wrong with that.
  • 4 1
 @Mtn-Goat-13: I had assumed Levy was perhaps in ill health and the downvotes were coming from people closer to him effectively asking commenters to back off - maybe a bit like Alicia's situation. It could be that, or some sort of employment beef - in which case this is sure to get deleted...

5..4..3..2..1..

Still here? Maybe it was an alien abduction.
  • 27 0
 @dresendsit: Donut mention Levy
  • 12 0
 @Mtn-Goat-13: in the future mentioning Levy will become another inside PB jokes
-looks like a session
-let the ibis do the work
-just roll it!
-reece Wilson/Wallace jokes
-Where’s Levy?
  • 3 0
 @Kevindhansen: you forgot "pick a wheel size..."
  • 4 2
 @Superboost: 100% they are, I spoke up to ohlins, the sponsor of Chris’s suspension post a few weeks back and that was gone in short order. I was professional, didn’t slam them just my feedback on a new TTx2 shock on a brand new forbidden I built up. Either that or I got downvoted so hard in 3 hours that it had vanished. Either way I am now curious about Levy, had no idea he was awol or other.
  • 1 0
 @ReformedRoadie: cme to the comments only to say that Levy had been summoned by the donut reference... you re all so far ahead hahah.
  • 1 0
 @rcrocha it's hidden in your internally routed headset
  • 1 0
 @gearbo-x: complanin
  • 139 6
 But going downhill with a "send it" mentality is just so much better. Then I ride more because riding is more fun. That's why DH casing tires, 4 piston brakes, and a coil shock still find their way onto the bike I ride 90+% of the time.
  • 3 0
 Thank you.
  • 3 1
 You’re just a masochist
  • 71 3
 Hear me out,
Does that "send it" mentality come from external inputs (you juast watched Rampage, and youre now off to huck that 2' drop youve been eyeing up), or internal ones (the feeling of speed, drifting, sliding, schralping while actually riding)
i figure its a combination, somewhat, but I tend to get a littlemore pumped up while actually riding.
I have a big bike, shod with stiff wheels, good tires, great brakes, and loads of well damed suspension, then I have a little bike, with more sketchy versions of both (I use it for coaching, and mellower rides/terrain)
the "edge" where I find myself hootering and hollering is found closer on the small bike (which is still incredibly capable), and ensures less dramatic outcomes if it all goes wrong. Big bike, I need to be on the ragged edge of what ispossible to get a similar feeling, and I enjoy being there, but the consequences are many when I frig it up.

If you have the opportunity, give a short travel, good geo, small bike a try, Man are they a blast!
  • 3 0
 @onawalk: how much travel is your short travel?
  • 8 3
 @GZMS: 120R/140F
  • 14 1
 @onawalk: This comment is spot on. I am in a similar situation with two bikes and every time I hop on the smaller travel one I remember how capable it is and almost feels more rewarding. There is a time and a place for both, but the smaller travel bikes make the basics of biking fun again where it might feel monotonous on an enduro bike.
  • 6 0
 I think part of the thought here is that if you have a more efficient climbing and pedaling bike, you are more likely to push your aerobic and anaerobic endurance, which can then pay off with better speed on the bigger bike.

I agree with the thought that I am almost never hammering a climb on my privateer. Could I yes, would it be a detriment to my descending? Yes. But on years that I'm on the trainer or hardtail more often, I find my climbing and descending speeds on the larger trail bike to increase dramatically as well.
  • 3 1
 @onawalk: I'm the same way. A 120/130 bike with good geo and components with energetic, drifty tires makes more trails more interesting. The big bike comes out for the truly gnarly stuff or bike park days.
  • 18 2
 Steel hardtail with aggressive geo (drops mic)
  • 4 0
 Yea and a pretty casual intermediate rider, I'd rather just be safer and more stable on descents with a slightly heavier, less efficient climbing bike.
  • 2 1
 @onawalk: conversely if I'm on the big bike I ride even the tamer stuff miles faster and therefore have more fun.

To take to extremes (I know you were talking mid-travel) if I ride a hardtail its great but there are always sections I wish I could have been on the big one and hammered it.
  • 3 0
 @onawalk: yep that’s why I ride my hardtail most of the time and it’s a lot more efficient than a full suspension so I can get more runs in and ride for further with more energy.
  • 3 0
 @puukkopedro: interesting,
Im not sure I ride tamer stuff faster on the big bike, I know it doesnt "feel" faster, cause a lot of the tamer trails also happen to be tighter trails, which seem to slow me down more, so its not where I "push" I guess.

That being said, sections that "feel" faster on the small bike, are prolly not actually faster at all, but the sensation of speed happens at a lower speed/exposure than it does on the big bike.

Really just lucky that I have the opportunity to play on these different bikes, in areas that are fun and challenging with people that I want to ride with
  • 3 0
 @Acourtney: I hear ya,
A good shorter travel bike is a great addition, and maybe even a better "one bike" than a big enduro bike
  • 2 0
 @Erikabraham566: I guess rewarding more often, as it takes big exposure/lines to get the same feeling on the big bike.
the short travel bike is a real blast, and can keep me in touch 90% of the time with a fast group
  • 4 0
 @thenotoriousmic: I definitely dont feel like riding longer or further on a hardtail, as I find it beats me up too much, which feels like a lot more work than reward for me.
Much respect for those of you that opt for the hardtail over a short travel bike
  • 3 5
 Best climbing efficiency is a chairlift followed by a landy then a bolt on cyc ebike kit. seriously pedal uphill there's something not right with you lol
  • 1 0
 @onawalk: Love your outlook on this. There's a time and a place for everything. It's like Gambler 500 cars vs. trophy trucks. Is the trophy truck faster than the lifted crown vic? Absolutely. Is it more capable? Also yes. But will it be as fun and squirelly on some mellow gravel fire roads? Probably not because it is overly capable for what you're throwing at it, whereas the crown vic will be at the very edge of it's capabilities and give you the endorphin rush of, "I can't believe I got away with that maneuver," and the truck would feel like another trip to the grocery store.

But there will always be times when you really wish you had the trophy truck and you brought the crown vic.

A lot of times, less is more fun and makes you appreciate "more" when you need it.
  • 4 1
 @Erikabraham566 @onawalk, this is totally hitting home. This is pretty much why I sold my FS over 2 years ago to go all HT (steel with modern geom -- pipedream moxie & sirius). It made the trails so much more interesting at the time, in 2 weeks I ditched gears and went all SS. I thought I'd never go back! Then this summer I bought a chromag stylus and then shortly realized that the 27.5 wheels don't have the momentum I like for SS, so then back went the gears for the stylus! Then after digging the gears as a new thing, I got the itch to try FS again. It's like a cycle: mix it up with something new, then get a little bored, then repeat! Or maybe its just bike ADHD.

I have a V1 forbidden druid frame (150F/130R) showing up next week to scratch that FS itch, must say I am a little nervous it maybe too capable and get boring real quick vs the enduro HT's I am enjoying now, but we'll see...
  • 4 1
 @onawalk: you keep telling people that, as it is possibly good advice for a lot of folks....


but let me say, that just doesn't happen. As someone that sets maybe a thousand bikes a year up for people to test, The number one way I can tell that someone is going to buy a 160 bike, is that they show up wanting to ride the new 120/130 bike. LMAO. people ride them, then go.....give me the longer travel version!!!! It's not even their fault. the big bike pedals 99.5% as well, and also has more forgiveness. Add to that, the vaaaaaaast majority of people are of middling skill, precious time, and only have 1 bike.

TLDR: all the cool kids say "short travel is sick brah!" but no one really buys them...
  • 3 0
 @onawalk: There is a popular saying with modestly powered sports cars - "it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow."
  • 2 0
 @onawalk: I kind of disagree with this take. Your ragged edge on the little bike is not at the same place as mine. And neither of us are likely to be anywhere near either a first time rider or Jackson Goldstone. This is why there are multiple kinds of bikes, ya know? The bigger bike affords more speed and more terrain in a more reliable package regardless of skill set. For my skill, strength, and riding preference, I have more fun, more often, on the bigger bike. And I do have a modern geo 120mm bike, I just don't like riding it as much. Maybe it would be different if I lived somewhere with buff shallow grade trails, but I don't.
  • 2 0
 I’m a fan of the zone 2/ zone 5 training protocols. Lots of hours at an easy to moderate pace, short periods of going all out. Big bike leads to this perfectly. I’ve never been so fit as when I used to ride a Santa Cruz VP Free with Sun Double Track rims everywhere. The big bike forces you sit, spin and slow the eff down (on the climb). Better for fitness, better for your head.
  • 1 0
 @dam5h: Don’t be nervous at all, I just built up a V1 a few weeks ago and it feels like a hard tail pedaling and and tosses about fairly lightly. Miss my hard tails but my internal structure is just too thrashed to hack riding them for long nowadays. Congrats on the new rig, enjoy it!!
  • 1 0
 @onawalk: I hear what you are saying, but I really, really like the big stuff where a big bike gives you the “ whoo hoo” moments that a smaller bike would deliver more of a “duck this is going to hurt” moment. That being said, I’m definitely looking at a smaller bike to spice up my local trails, but the big fun will always be in the big bike!
  • 1 0
 @mkul7r4: this is me.
  • 4 0
 @onawalk: I'm on board with this.

Until recently I had a 160/160 and a hardtail. Loved both, but also got a kick out of riding stuff that scared me on the FS on the hardtail too. Definitely only an average rider so that's probably equivalent of a canal path to most people on here.

But the hardtail did beat me up a lot, so I replaced it with a short travel trail bike. I get a real sense of it being like a rocket ship, but with loads of comfort added in.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: that’s exactly the reason I’ve built up a hardtail to compliment my full sus. Also it being easier to clean for winter riding duties.
  • 2 0
 @bat-fastard: Name checks out
  • 2 0
 @onawalk: Now that short travel bikes finally have great geometry, I completely agree. Sure, there are still some trails (and regions) that are just better suited to a longer travel bike. But I’ve always favored a lighter sportier bike for most of my riding as I really enjoy that feeling of riding ‘close to the edge’. The current crop of short travel bikes are just so capable, and there’s a wide range of choice to be had in this category. (Think BC40 or Blur TR vs. Tallboy or SCOR 2030)
  • 2 0
 @onawalk: not many people understand how lucky they are. Good comment. Eyes open.
  • 1 0
 @schlockinz: not exactly apples and apples, but I certainly never work as hard on the mountain bike pedaling to the tail head as I do on the road bike on the same road - I think it's because peddling harder makes little difference to how fast I go, so I don't!
  • 1 0
 @jgottya1 awesome, thanks, glad it is still tossable! How are you liking those massive chainstays?

How tall are you and what size did you get?
  • 1 0
 @sspiff: i stick with HT because i've always ridden HT. my current bike is Yeti Arc 29er HT with 130 front fork and i ride it everywhere - groceries, commute, easy greens, flowy blues, shake your bones downhills and double blacks :-D fun isn't dependent on speed!
  • 1 0
 @dam5h: They stays feel ok even though I have a lot of tech riding near me and my other bikes are fairly short wheelbase and stays. I notice it a tad on slow speed wheelie maneuvering but I will get used to it. I am 5-11 and grabbed a large new growth with the ohlins. A bit longer than my usual but wanted an actual trail bike feel as my others are much longer travel rigs.
  • 1 0
 @jgottya1 right on, I am 5'10" and got the exact same frame, tough to beat 1600 shipped!. Reach pretty spot on, effective top tube a little longer than what I used to as is seat tube and chainstays, assuming I'll get used to it. On V2 I'd be medium instead. Enjoy the druid!
  • 1 0
 @onawalk: yeah think I agree with 'feeling' faster.
I get that. Like Levy used to analogise driving the old Mini about.
Good comments dude
  • 1 0
 @marko369: I've not long bought one, and I find I keep reaching for it over the 170/160mm enduro for midweek rides I know are shorter. What a blast!
  • 1 0
 @dam5h: Nice! Yeah that was a steal, I got mine for 21 and then few weeks later saw them for 15, had all I could do not to grab another…the sickness never stops. I preferred the look of the V1 geo over the V2 so that and the price caused the tweek..lol. Thanks, you as well!
  • 1 1
 @marko369: and a think liner as no one likes the wifes lunch getting damaged
  • 1 0
 @haen: Can confirm,
Nothing is as fast as a crapbox, manual transmission, rental car in South America
  • 1 0
 @dam5h: You've got a lot going on, I love it.

Goos luck out there with the Druid, its on my shortlist
  • 1 0
 @FartanSpartan: In the end, we can all have fun on a tonne of different options out there.
I'm lucky enough to have a big bike, and small bike, both of which are very capable.

Sometimes one is more fun than the other, and sometimes I'm left wishing I was on the other bike, but thats pretty rare.
  • 1 0
 @MonsterTruck: Thats cause that was 20 years ago.....Not becuase you were riding a shitty climbing bike. You were in your 30's, with endless energy
  • 1 0
 @sspiff: I dont know where your ragged edge is, I dont think we've ridden together.
My small bike is still very capable, just not as much of a truck as my Spire.
The bigger bike affords more speed, but that sensation of speed comes at a higher consequence, that same sensation can be found on a smaller bike, with less consequence, can we agree on that?

I get the opportunity to ride differently than most people, in the fact that I get to spend a lot of time on the bike. My partner rides, so its something we do together, I have a flexible work schedule, so I can go more often, I live very close to several great trail networks, I have a long riding season, and I coach mountain biking, so I'm out with varied levels of riders.
In some of those instances, the big bike is overkill, and the small bike is a better option for more fun.

Lets be honest, everywhere has moderate trails, if theres mtb trails theres likely way more blue trails than black or double blacks where you live.
  • 1 0
 @Chief2slo: Everyones definition of "big stuff" is different, if youre having fun, thats all that matters. I've been riding a very long time, and theres really nothing I cant ride on the small bike, it just takes a little more out of me at the end of the day.
The luxury of having two bikes is great, in reality, my wife rides a an in between bike at 160/150, so Im even more spoiled for options...
  • 1 0
 @CrookedCrank: Nice,
I'm stoked for you!
  • 1 0
 @basic-ti-hardtail: Current short travel bikes (its pretty funny, my current short travel bike is much more capable than my older Stinkys, or RM7, or....) are very very good. Current short travel bike is a Fugitive, that has been short stroked to 120R/140F, thinking of trying a mullet setup on it to add to the fun times.

It is not as stiff as the big bike, and theyre basically the same weight, but its a tonne of fun on more moderate trails where the big bike is a bit too much.

That Scor, the new Optic (HP/idler) the Element, and the new Druid look like a good time.
I wold love to give that BC40, and Blur a try as well
  • 1 0
 @Lemmyschild: Im very fortunate, and I try my best to remember that
  • 1 0
 @aviator99: For some, speed is definitely a big factor, for some, its a deterrent.
Its rad you've found what works for you!
Keep having a kick ass time out there!
  • 1 0
 @dam5h: @jgottya1 : I'm very jealous of both of you.
There are several Druids, around here, and they are under riders that are exceptionally fast. They are great looking bikes!
  • 1 0
 @puukkopedro: Exactly, that sensation of "speed" which is what fun is about for a lot of people, comes at a much lower exposure level.
An old Honda Civic feels fast af at 60km/h, my Diesel 1tonne longbox, not at all.
  • 76 2
 I like Seb's articles. And I like bikes.
  • 4 0
 Couldn't agree more
  • 7 1
 100%, great article. Love the reference to Javon's paradox, and so glad he highlights that tires are the biggest factor, not the nuances of suspension travel or design we tend to get so wound up about.
  • 1 0
 and I can't lie
  • 57 1
 I climb on the chairlifts up. Super efficient, but can be expensive.
  • 23 1
 With a season pass it gets cheaper every day you get in the bike park Smile
  • 33 0
 @nermol: I prefer thinking of it has the first day is very expensive then the rest are free
  • 1 11
flag bat-fastard (Oct 20, 2023 at 14:11) (Below Threshold)
 I get that few weeks a year too, rest of time I've a 1500w cyc ebike kit for home to shuttle when there's no lifts..
  • 47 0
 I have definitely become slower during the great wonder bike revolution of the last decade. It has nothing to do with being 10 years older and having more life responsibilities.
  • 16 0
 there also may or may not be some equatorial expansion involved...
  • 18 0
 @mattmatthew: Is that when all of your clothes start shrinking in the wash at exactly the same time? I've had that. Super annoying.
  • 44 2
 This article reminds me of college psychology classes — this could be caused by one of several factors, or a combination of several factors, or all the factors, or none at all. We don’t know. We can reach no definitive conclusions.
  • 4 0
 Oh yeah, classic "water is wet" theory
  • 17 0
 Lucky for you this "article" starts off with the word "opinion".
  • 6 6
 I liked this. ‘It’s just my opinion’ is like the last refuge of people who’ve been noticed saying nonsense. Trying to bolster an opinion with facts is a pretty clear red flag that the basic difference between those two categories is getting lost. But this one struck me as an analogy used just to be better understood and was interesting in it’s own right. There’s very little claim being made and it matches the (small) size of the evidence. Fine work pb
  • 7 0
 its almost like, and stay with me here, different things mean different things to different people...
Like we all have different experiences, different terrain, different body proportions, different wants/needs/likes, different abilities, and all those small differences add up to, well big differences!

All in, as long as youre having a good time, and you can revel in the fact that others are also having a good time, and those good times might/are/can be/are great if they are, different, then everyone should be in a good place!
  • 4 0
 That's true . Levons Paradox seems to address human behavior and our neuroprogramming far more than actual physics. In fact, I don't think it speaks to the physical factors at all. It's a paradox of human psychology...
  • 2 0
 @RayDolor: I read it as more an economic principle. Regardless, sometimes there is no black and white in the world, and it’s helpful to evaluate various factors and causes.
  • 1 1
 @Snfoilhat: Thank you. "it's my opinion" is in no way an argument. It's like how people think "I'm offended" is an argument too.
  • 1 0
 What I learned here is a name for the fact that I leave the lights on a lot more now that I switched everything to LED.
  • 6 0
 @stinkie: Moisture is the essence of wetness, and wetness is the essence of beauty.
  • 3 0
 If someone asks me if i liked the old fashioned or the pink frosted with sprinkles more, i wouldn’t feel like my answer needed to include focus group data, historical trends in donut preference, or technically flavored wharblgarbl conjectures about taste receptors and yeast performance as a fluffiness correlate.
  • 39 0
 Speaking of psychology classes, I finally read the linked article about e-bikes and thought the findings were interesting because they don't support the conclusions from the paper I always hear referenced.

"One study had 33 mountain bikers ride a regular bike and an electric mountain bike for one lap each and compared the effort with heart rate monitors. The average heart rate was similar on both bikes, suggesting riders weren't taking it easier on the e-MTB (although they were riding for less time)."

The average heart rate was decidedly not the same, and in fact meaningfully and statistically different, with a mean of 145 for the e-bike group and 155 for the mountain bike group with statistical significance at p.001. That's a big difference -- not no difference -- while also being statistically different.

With a mean Max HR for the sample being 182, that puts the mountain bike group at an average HR of 85% of Max HR vs 79% for the e-bike group. I'm not a physiologist, but I believe in their literature there is agreement that roughly 78% of MHR represents LT1, and 86% of MHR represents LT2 -- coincidentally, the values the control and treatment groups both averaged. In simple terms, LT2 represents your lactate threshold. If you've tested your lactate threshold, it isn't pleasant. LT1 represents the level at which your body can clear elevated lactate and should be sustainable for hours.

I know that isn't the purpose of this opinion piece, but after finally reading the study, I thought it would be worthwhile to correct the misconceptions around the findings.
  • 3 0
 This is a truly excellent comment.
  • 2 0
 @onawalk: Your positive zen here is making me proud to be a human again. Thank you. I hope you get some good rides in this weekend!
  • 2 0
 @jgottya1: I had a great ride this weekend!
Hope you got out lots yourself!

Im not always positive, but I do try my damndest
  • 2 0
 @onawalk: Thanks brother! I did get out albeit after tons of rain and made the best of it with wet leaves adding to the excitement. No matter what, far better than not riding. Glad you got a good ride in, nothing better! Way to be man, keep positive!! If you are ever in the Northeast you are welcome to take my Druid out for a rip.
  • 1 0
 @jgottya1: Nice,
I'm originally from further East than I am now, that Canadian shield rock, with wet fall leaves, makes for some great spicy riding.
I'll take you up on that offer if I ever make my way out out east to ride bakes again.
  • 1 0
 @onawalk: Oh yeah it is spicy season for sure!! Absolutely always welcome brother.
  • 24 0
 Unpopular opinion : Semi-slick rear tire are really great. Better rolling performance and I find that it makes you work on your cornering position (you need to really lean on to find the tire knobs), I need to work better on the front brake and body weight on front because if you block the rear wheel you'll drift.

I had a slaughter for a few season, it felt great. I went back to DHR II but I'll go back to semi-slick when the DHR II is all worn.
  • 1 0
 I have been thinking of running a Slaughter in the rear for exactly this reasoning!
  • 3 0
 There was a top Belgian XC racer who used to practice with slicks in wet conditions over roots and rocks. Just so that he actually learned find grip through technique rather than just to rely on grippy and knobby tires. Plus it is a lot of fun too if you only have a slick in the rear but proper knobbies in the front. I sometimes put a knobby tire on the front wheel of my DJ bike when on a 4X track when it was wet. But it doesn't necessarily make you better overall and the forwards position isn't necessarily the best. Yes you learn to extract grip from the front tire but you can't pump to accelerate out of corners. Plus if you approach a jump and you you're tempted to put in another pedal stroke to give you a little more speed, your rear end kicks out and you lose your speed instead.
  • 4 0
 Not unpopular with me at all. I’ve been rocking the semi-slick for 5 years now, ever since one of my bikes came stock with a Rock Razor. I think the slaughter is even better. Might now be great for really loamy or wet, muddy riding, but lucky for me, we don’t have that here. Rocks and dust! I don’t see any drawbacks.
  • 3 0
 I used a semi-slick in Colorado for two years and I thought it was awesome! But it is usually dry there. I live in Switzerland now and it is often slightly damp to wet and it was super sketchy. So for their place, they are amazing, but it isn't a panacea.
  • 5 1
 I love running "under tired" running the semislick rear and moving around my bike like a crazy monkey to find climbing and cornering traction.

Still out-climbing and out cornering my buddies on minions and big lugged tires and shamelessly running away from them on the straights All that body work on the bike leaves me gassed on downs but overall it's my preferred set up and is overall faster over the ride.

When the big tires come on it's frightening how fast the corners can be taken with the techniques developed.
Wish someone made a 29 x 2.6 semi slick I also really like big tires as it smooths out the roots and rocks a bit better.
  • 2 0
 @vinay: Depending on the type of rocks,a semi-slick can be a very good choice in rocks and roots,as it offers more rubber to grip on the surface. Also less squirmy knobs.
If it's not loose,deep mud,it can work well.
  • 4 0
 I had been running the DHR II for years as my rear tire and recently switched to the Maxxis Agressor and the decreased rolling resistance (despite a supposed slight increase in weight) was immediately noticeable, with only a very minor decrease in traction. I've been riding the aggressor for probably six months now and am totally used to it and am a big fan!
  • 2 0
 @Mikevdv: Kenda Booster comes in 29 x 2.60. I just started a love affair with that as a rear tire.
  • 2 0
 @Landonarkens: The booster that's a beauty! Thanks! I've been running an XR2 2.6 as a front but tend to rip off the small thin side knobs. This one is a little lighter and side knobs look a little more likely to stay on the tire
it's not the thunderburt grade semi slick I often run on the rear but looks great
  • 4 0
 @Rideuse67 not so unpopular opinion, but manufacturers don't seem to understand this or maybe they make it rare/expensive on purpose.

For example I love the Rock Razor, but I don't think it has ever existed in a supergravity style casing, AND fast rolling rubber. Thick casings are unfortunately always paired with soft rubber.

Does the slaughter exist in that combo? And at less than 60€?
  • 1 0
 @Uuno: There is a heavier casing for the slaughter. That’s what I use. I can’t say for sure if that’s what you’re looking for.
  • 2 0
 @Rideuse67 @haen. Got a Slaughter for fall riding! Great minds!
  • 1 0
 I ride a Dissector right down to the threads, theres a short time period where you have the perfect rear tire. Its just the loosest, most predictable rear tire I've found.
  • 1 0
 @Mikevdv: Maybe a low volume tire, with inserts and lower pressure?
  • 19 0
 A lot of riders claim to not care about climbing efficiency or speed. But what they miss is how much easier the trail is when you go faster, even by a bit. Momentum is an element overlooked so often in the bike review world, but it is what makes climbing most trails go so much easier. Fresh going up, means fast going down.
  • 3 0
 So true, just simple pumping natural features generates much more speed
  • 1 0
 @GZMS: Very true. I recently spent some time at a pump track developing better technique and it's paid off the trails. Much easier than pedaling hard.
  • 5 0
 Amen brother - momentum allows for more flow, both up and down. I went from an alloy Process 134 (37#) to a carbon Sentinel (34# with all the same parts, except shock, which is lighter than the coil I ran on the Process). The ever so slightly lighter weight probably doesn't do much - but the more composed suspension platform and the longer wheelbase makes it easier to keep a bit of momentum on climb trails, and that gives great incentive to push a bit harder to keep it going rather than just resigning myself to a granny gear grind. And so I find myself doing the same climbs in a little less time, working a little harder, and generally having a better time (i.e., dreading the climbs a little less). It doesn't work on gravel road climbs - those are still soul sucking grinds, and I avoid them like the plague.

The ebike thing is interesting in that regard, too. I've only demoed e-MTBs so far, but I found that I got about the same amount of vert and mileage out of the much smaller (430Wh) battery on a Relay as out of a Repeater (630Wh), and did so in about the same amount of time with very similar average speed, despite the lower assist from the motor. There's just enough assist to make the climb trail fun, so I push myself (and have to push myself a little more than on the full fat eeb).

Goes to show how much of all of this is between the ears. Part of how much I enjoy my new Sentinel has probably to do with it being a much better, more composed bike than my old Process, so that right there makes me want to ride more and add an extra lap. Having even a little bit of fun on the climbs helps (I'm a hedonistic rider - climbing for the sake of pushing myself is not really my cup of tea), and that's good for some extra laps right there as well. Hopefully, that all leads to more riding to an extent that increases fitness, which then in turn decreases the suckiness of climbing, reinforcing the whole thing some more, so I'll get more riding. Or, as the eeb contingent always crows, more miles-more smiles...
  • 23 1
 Contrary to popular belief...mountains go up and down.
  • 8 1
 Well actually... Einstein's general theory of relativity states that within a frame of reference it's impossible to distinguish between the effects of gravity and acceleration. So in a certain frame of reference the mountain is accelerating downward.
  • 6 0
 @jeremy3220: Einstein could shred.
  • 16 1
 My personal experience is the same as listed in the article. Tires matter WAY more than amount of travel for climbing efficiency. This is why "downcountry" bikes don't make a lot of sense to me. If you spec them with enduro tires and wheels they don't climb any better than an enduro bike, so if you're going to run heavy tires there is no reason not to go for more travel too.
  • 17 0
 Multiple wheelsets make more sense than multiple bikes.
  • 5 1
 I think this definitely is true for fire road style climbs, but (for me at least) not so much for punchy out of the saddle climbing.
  • 6 0
 @ReformedRoadie: Amen to both of you. Everytime I put my spare light wheelset with Rekon Races, my enduro rig completely transforms itself.
  • 1 0
 @ReformedRoadie: I got 2 wheelsets in my Enduro,rear one I do not swap to often,but the front wheels yes.
Got one Michelin DH22 for bikepark/ugly trails an the other one with DD Assegai. That Michelin tire is painfully slow compared to any other tire I know,grip is awesome but it got a huge penalty with it in rolling speed.
  • 5 0
 Couldn’t agree more. I’ve lost count of the number of guys I know who bought a Spur or something similar, put minions on it, maybe a coil shock, bumped up the fork, etc. all looking to improve its descending ability. I love efficient short-travel bikes, but you’ve got to know what you’re getting into and be okay with it, otherwise you end up just turning a downcountry bike into a poor excuse for a short-travel enduro bike.
  • 5 0
 @dthomp325: downcountry bikes aren't meant to be equipped with enduro tyres.

(which are a regular sight on _trailbikes_ though)
  • 2 0
 @dthomp325 my experience is the opposite, when I compare my enduro bike (frankensteined to 186mm or rear travel, coil) to anything with less travel.
- Fire road : seated, no prob
- High power short climb : antisquat keeps the bike stiff, no prob
- Long semi steep tech climb : I have to stand, I feel like on a pogo stick, it's a PAIN.

So yeah, I agree with your point if we're talking only about fire roads. But for all the potentially fun tech climbing, it's night and day between a Spur or a Spire even if both have DH tyres.

@Hayek a burlied spur will be less efficient than a light build, but the frame is 1kg lighter than the spire, so that's a good starting point to build a light ish and capable bike.
  • 13 1
 Cool little article, Jevons paradox definitely strikes a chord with me. Although I thought a lightweight, efficient, Trek Top Fuel would inspire me to push harder and longer while riding, it merely held me back on the descents. It still didn't insipre me to push harder on the climbs and further distances because I wanted to reserve energy for descending. On the contrary, put me on a gravel bike and I will hammer the entire ride and work towards increasing my ride distance over time. For me, MTB is all about having fun whereas Gravel is about pushing my limits with a super efficient bike and building my fitness for MTB.
  • 7 0
 I recently switched from a Specialized Eliminator T7 to a Specialized Butcher T9 for my rear tire (the higher the T number, the grippier the tire). The increased rolling resistance in the Butcher T9 was painful. I initially thought my brakes were dragging, just riding on flat land. I flipped my bike over and spun my rear wheels just to confirm.
  • 3 0
 That tire in particular has so much drag. I just got one and am feeling the same effect.
  • 1 0
 I had to take the T9 Butcher off the back of my bike, I just couldn't do it any more. I was actively working much harder to ride with a buddy I usually ride with at easy pace. Put a T9 Eliminator on, its ok.
  • 1 0
 @jqwan: I'm going back to the Eliminator T7 or possibly the Slaughter T7 for even less rolling resistance.
  • 1 0
 Butcher T7 f, Eliminator T9 r works great for me as an all rounder combo, can do local trails with long climbs and also works good at the park without having to swap out tires. I would never consider putting a Butcher on the rear for a trail bike.
  • 1 0
 I put a T9 Butcher on the back but reverse direction. It rolls faster than regular way and the grip climbing up is unreal.
  • 1 0
 @DizzyNinja: Interesting. Might have to try that.
  • 3 0
 @haen: I'm probably just going to stop buying Specialized tyres =D
  • 6 0
 This is why I'm constantly surprised that most of my fastest strava times are on my hardtail and not my trail bike. Doesn't tax me as much when I'm hammering, and unless the trail is really gnarly, that makes up for the lack of rear travel. At least that was my theory
  • 32 1
 Most of my fastest times on Strava are on my single speed because if you aren't mashing up the hill you're not going up the hill.
  • 4 0
 @vitaflo: Agreed! Single speed bikes force you to try and conserve momentum as much as possible, such as attacking hills before you get to them. No grabbing gears halfway up as you slow down.
  • 5 0
 @vitaflo: e-bikes near me have rendered Strava KOMs, etc. absolutely useless. I swear half the riders near me run their strava on MTB trails riding their 250cc Kawasakis. No point in trying anymore.
  • 7 1
 What my friends and I have noticed is that more and more, most riders can't really pedal anymore. Maybe it's the enduro "trend", maybe it's bikes that don't inspire it? Maybe it's public malaise and American food portions...
  • 1 0
 I have to put so much extra effort into work lately that I'm not willing to pedal anymore...
Shuttle laps or I'm not coming.
Frown
  • 4 0
 I experience this same paradox all the time. When I ride my XC rig with fast tires and efficient suspension I always pedal harder on the climbs (measured by heart rate/power/speed). The exchange of extra effort for extra speed feels so good that I don't even notice the extra effort. Conversely, on my trail bike I will at times push hard on climbs, but the reward never seems to match the extra effort, so I usually end up cruising along on the climbs.

For me this is also true on lower angle descents. I'll push harder with the XC bike because it feels so responsive and a bit on the edge all the time. On my trail bike I'm only enthused when things get steep and rough.
  • 3 0
 This is the same with fitness. The more I pedal my bike uphill, the more fit I get.... but it always feels just as hard as it did 2 years ago. Turns out, I just pedal up faster than I did before to get that same feeling.
  • 8 0
 @tvan5: it never gets easier, you just get faster - Greg LeMond
  • 4 0
 If bike is underperforming on downhills that can lead to injury and lots of time off the bike. You are unlikely to get hurt on a climb. Feel like that trade off should be considered more considering we pretty much all have joined the clavicle club
  • 1 0
 It’s also unlikely to have fun on a climb Vs a downhill
  • 5 1
 I concur. When I’m on the XC bike, climbing is more fun and I tend to put in extra effort on the uphills. Or go „just one more hill“.

E bikes probably don’t work for that purpose because you never have to actually push yourself. There is always the temptation of the turbo button as an easy cop out when tires. And human nature means almost everyone will use it eventually.
  • 7 0
 The lycra skin suit is making a comeback!
  • 4 0
 I've noticed that I'm 66,6% more efficient the day after I drink half of a bottle of wine rather than the entire bottle, even with my 16kg trail bike and my beefy tyres. Astonishing Smile
  • 3 1
 I have always said that for m ost big rides, enduro tyre up front, trail tyre out back. No point lugging and anchor around with you for a 30 mile ride in the mountains that's faster on 2 corners, slower on the descents mostly too.... Slower because your top speed and acceleration out of the corners is worse on the anchor. Assagai up front, crossmark mkii exo casing out back. Until winter when it's just too wet for the crossmark to brake on steeper, gnarly stuff. For Torridon big mountain ride, wet or dry the crossmark is an awesome tyre, there is no slop to worry about so all good,, even in the hammering rain.
  • 4 2
 Making the jump from flats to clipless made enough of a difference in efficiency to pretty much disregard the weight of my bike. Over a long day of singletrack climbing, the difference in energy output is so noticeable. Clipless just makes the downhill a lot more fun as well
  • 2 0
 Jevons Paradox, huh. I've seen the same with computers and mobile phones over the decades - faster processing just leads to being stuffed with more software etc. Booting up takes just as long as it ever did. There was a dip in boot-up speed when we first went to SSDs, but then they got crammed with crap.
  • 2 0
 Interesting take @sebbstott , but wouldn’t this only work if you’re riding solo and you can choose to take it easy? If you’re riding with others who have more efficient bikes, they are going to force you to ride faster on a less efficient bike, thereby, getting fitter.
  • 4 2
 Wow, bikes that pedal better, climb better? and make you want to pedal more? What a groundbreaking discovery!
Next you'll tell me that bikes that descend better, also go downhill better, and make you want to go downhill more!
  • 2 0
 The more efficient your bike is, the more trails you can ride in a given time-frame/ with your available energy. Over time this will probably make you faster on the trails too because of more training. So always choose the fastest tyre you can get away with.
  • 1 0
 One point I was hoping to see in this article was how a efficient bike makes the downhill more enjoyable. I had a horribly inefficient suspension bike for awhile and I hated how boggy and slow it seemed on those trending down, twisty up and down trails that used to be really fun on a fast bike. When your out of the saddle, accelerating on a downhill or out of a corner, you still want to feel like your fast and be fast.
  • 3 0
 Stick the XC rubber on the hardtail for cranking out 25 mile rides, pull out the DH tire ladden full sus for the 10 mile quality over quantity laps
  • 1 0
 Great article. I notice the "Jevon's paradox" a lot when I change tires on my XC bike. I just want to hammer when I have fast tires on, but when I put chunky tires on in the winter, I want to cruise. That said, I think a big factor is whether you're riding with people or alone. I've had a couple sluggish high pivot bikes in recent years. When I ride by myself, I am trying extra hard to take it easy. I probably work less hard than if I was on a faster, more efficient bike. But when I am riding with a group of people on more efficient bikes, I am definitely working harder because I am forced to overcome the efficiency differential to keep pace with the group.
  • 3 0
 Ever since I bought an Epic Evo, I definitely enjoy pedalling around on not too extreme trails more, compared to on my 37lb, downhill tires equipped, Forbidden Dreadnought
  • 2 0
 Try the lighter wheelset on the Forbidden and vice versa!
  • 1 0
 It’s also easier to put in more hours on a XC/gravel/road bike if you don’t have a lot of properly gnarly trails in riding distance from your front door. I also feel like once your riding 10+ hours a week (there are going to be some days where I don’t have the mental focus to ride more challenging trails without doing something stupid and crashing
  • 1 0
 For me, climbing efficiency is more about having a supportive pedaling platform and a comfortable climbing position - not about having the lightest bike. My 38lb RocketMax with a coil shock left open somehow pedals uphill better than my 28lb Transition Spur. I climb faster when I'm motivated on the RocketMax, than when I'm bobbing up and down on the Transition (even at 27% sag). So for 30 mile / 6k ft backcountry days, I take the big bike. The small bike is more suited to mellower terrain.
  • 1 0
 Agree. And yet some people despise a climb or lock out switch.
  • 1 0
 I leave my mud/rain tyres on my commute bike all year - thinking I get more training out of it…
What does Jevon say to this: if I go the same distance (to work) every day, I should have more training effect since it is harder..?
  • 1 0
 As far as weight is concerned, if I only gain .5% efficiency with a kg lighter bike... the number in percentage seems irrelevant but in terms of a typical one hour climb that's 30 seconds I gain. Dunno about anyone else but I'd gladly take that in any race scenario just sayin!
  • 2 1
 I’m kind of upset that Pinkbike now quotes their idler efficiency test as fact that an idler will cost you 2%, having ridden a few idler bikes I can safely say all are not equal on idler drag and the forbidden used is that test is definitely not one of the best.
  • 1 1
 2% of drivetrain drag, which is already very small compared to aerodynamics and MaxxGrip rolling resistance
  • 1 0
 @pmhobson: I thought the result of Seb's idler efficiency test was that the idler consumed about 2% of the total power produced, so at 200 watts you'd have 4 watts of idler drag.

Normally, drivetrain drag with a clean chain and top performing lube is only about 5 watts, so the idler is actually nearly doubling the drag. If the idler only added 2% of the 5 watt total it would be an immeasurably small difference in anything but a super precise lab test.
  • 1 0
 Yes, the number of teeth on the idler will have a (relatively) huge effect on the friction generated by the chain links pivoting around it. I'm sure bearings, seals, robust mounting points, etc...play a roll too, but that chordal effect of the links on a highly tensioned stretch of chain is the biggie.
  • 1 0
 @thekaiser: Once you get above a certain number of teeth the differance isn't huge, see graph:
www.pinkbike.com/photo/24097396
A robust mount on both sides of the idler is under rated, alot of force is pulling the chain and any flex in the idler or uneven load on the bearings will increase friction, also worth noting idler bikes can better isolate the anti squat with outside factors like chainring size and which gear you're in having less influence so in reality they can create an improved pedalling platform if designed with that intention which not all are.
My point being not all idler bikes should be judged with the same efficiency losses.
  • 1 0
 I agree with the main idea of the article. A bike that feels fast pushes you to pedal it hard. I'm fine with soft pedaling my trail bike, esp if the Enduro tires are on there. When I am on smooth asphalt on my road bike my legs start itching if I am not going full gas. Would like to hear some psychologist tell me how that works.
  • 1 0
 Recently upgraded from a knolly chilcotin 151 to a deviate highlander 2. The highlander is so much better at climbing and effecient i can hardly believe it. I’m also blowing my lungs out way more on tech climbs because it makes me want to push harder.

So I agree
  • 1 0
 Really liked the article. It makes sense. I bought a Spectral 125 when it came out, with the intention of it being the Do-it-all-bike outside of bikeparks where a fr/dh specific bike just works better than an Enduro. Flatted the rear Dissector exo too often, went heavier. The climbs sucked more (the thing weighs around 16kg with pedals in the cheapish spec). But I didn't want to compromise on the downs. So I found a cheap light-ish wheelset ~1400g and put xc tires on it. Around 1500g weight saved and massive better rolling. Now it flies uphill and on straights and I use that setup as a kind of gravel bike and commute to work. Extreme increase in usability for those days I don't really want to hit the trails and just fly over fireroads.
  • 1 0
 Looking at new tires because my DHR2/Assegai combo is insane on the downs but terrible on the ups.

Used to ride bike parks every week but the cost of trips adds up.
Breaking bumps,destroyed trails and overcrowded days with chair lineups got old too.

Now focusing on riding more trailheads, spending 75%+ of my time climbing, my tire setup has incredible grip but is so slow.

Need more middle of the road grip tires.
  • 1 0
 I discovered this by accident recently. I was fully in the "get there when we get there" crowd but I picked up an xc bike for the hell of it and realized that I ride that bike way harder than I ever ride my enduro bike. I've gotten in far better shape and am way better on the enduro bike for it. That said, the same wasn't true for me when I had an emtb. It was fun as hell and I pushed myself on it but it didn't translate into better riding on my other bikes.
  • 1 0
 I’m actually considering a swap of tyres

Currently on:

Magic Mary Super Gravity Ultrasoft
Continental Xynotal Enduro Soft

And thinking about:

Magic Mary Super Trail Ultrasoft
Nobby Nic Super trail Soft

How much of a difference would actually be on the way up?
  • 1 0
 @dam5h:
One thing I did find that may be useful to you, where the cables leave the back of the top tube and enter the swingarm, may want to put a few layers of shrink wrap or other right there to keep the cable housings from floating in and out of the swingarm hole. Some folks use zip ties, I like a cleaner look if I have options. If it isn’t isolated it looks like it wears that area down, surely the more grit,mud etc in the area increases the wear. Cheers! Other than that, no snags at all in the frame up build.
  • 1 0
 Well, I just got a bike with an idler and, indeed, it climbs slower. However, it descends so mutch better, especially here on lockal trails, so for me this is way more important compare to -2% on climbs
  • 1 0
 Its not that you enyoy more being more efficient but your body brain tells you wats hurting you and whats ok. Pedaling an 50pund bike with the wrong muscles ligaments and so on its hurting you.
  • 1 0
 It must be a balance between body and bike to enjoy its not said that lighter more efficient bikes will ride better than a havier bike with proper posture for your body. Well lightness probably is a big factor but not so much as posture and balance.
  • 2 0
 So what I've gathered is that people with prius's have single handedly harmed the turtles instead of what their bumper sticker says!
  • 3 3
 I appreciate the article but not sure what the point is beyond going down an idiosyncratic, speculative rabbit hole. We would all ride the most efficient bikes we could for climbs, but have to balance that efficiency for goals of the descent or the type of descent we ride. There is no substitute for a heavier bike with travel and DH casings with soft rubber for ambitious descents, which is what a lot of people also like to ride.
  • 2 0
 Idiosyncratic speculative rabbit holes on Pinkbike? There's more holes than substance down here (which must be on purpose for weight savings, we're an efficient bunch)
  • 2 0
 Aside from tires , one of the biggest changes I noticed is buying lighter shoes. Used to pedal in 510 impacts. Now with Spesh 2FO. Night and day.
  • 1 1
 I appreciate fun in efficiency. I live in the south east of England, a good descent is 1 minute maximum, otherwise undulating, enduro bike and dh casing worthy descents are probably 10 seconds long and few and far between, screw a hard 5-10 minutes for potentially 10 seconds of fun when I could be on a more efficient bike, sack off that once in a blue moon 10 seconds of gnar for an extra few laps of that 1 minute lesser gnar.
  • 2 0
 That’s why you should train with heart rate zones if you really care about fitness, then you know exactly how hard you are trying regardless of the machinery
  • 3 0
 Strangely enough, I can walk my full suspension bike up a steep hill just as fast as my XC bike. Maybe it's my chain lube?
  • 1 0
 Just so you know, “just as fast” != “just as fast, for the same effort”
  • 4 4
 Very interesting article. Totally +1 the point on actual outputs on acoustic vs ebikes. Ive been tracking my fitness and caloric outputs closely for 4 years and this year being the first year that I got an ebike there have been some interesting results. Obviously my elevation gained has more than doubled, no duh. What has been interesting from a fitness standpoint is my fitness value (as measured by Suunto's proprietary metric and thats an entire debatable topic in itself) has never been higher as of EOM September this year which is where I tend to see my peak after the summer season. My Kcal per hour is naturally lower on the ebike (700 ebike vs 900 accoustic) BUT the key differentiator has been that 1. I ride way more frequently as the climbing burden has significantly reduced (you can get a meaningful door to door ride in 90 min on an ebike if your time constrained and who knew hungover rides were a thing) and 2. I ride for longer meaning my total Kcal output per ride is actually higher since im typically riding for more hours. Although max heart rates are the same I think on the ebike youre just in that upper zone for less time which is where I think the Kcal/hour disparity really comes from.

Aerobic variances aside, I have def noticed an increase in strength which seems intuitive as throwing around an additional 15lbs of a bike for double the altitude descending certainly works your body out harder from an anaerobic standpoint and I think that point about ebikes isnt made enough. I think this benefit is major for the dads or time constrained riders of the world. Its hard enough to get in 3 solid rides in a week let alone time for weight lifting and other fitness goals bc if its me Ill always choose to ride than do any other activity. This benefit of ebikes is kind of a two birds w/ one stone thing. That said as winter closes in Ill be on my hardtail more so it will be interesting to see how the metric trends move in the coming months relative to previous years.

Also, one of the upper comments was interesting re: heavy casing tires nullifying benefits of climbing efficiency and I think there is a ton of truth to that, at least for me. Whats more, to what Quinny has been shouting about, heavy bikes just plain ride better descending. Add to that that Im 235lbs on a good day so I tend to build my accoustics to be burley enough to handle that rider weight well on the descents which results in pig bikes. Enter my ebike, Ive set PRs on all my strava descent segments by around a 5-10% improvement gain in time which is sizable and I entirely attribute that to 1. the heavier bike that didnt sacrifice on component strength just smashes through stuff and 2) more energy on tap for the descents as a result of energy saved on the climbs. So in total Kcal output on ebikes is relatively the same as accoustic, just a mix shift in how those kcals are spent up vs down and over the course of the ride time. Overall likley an aerobic loss but an anaerobic gain w/ ebikes.

Curious if any other ebike converts have observed any of this.

Anyways, Ebike propaganda and diatribe over. Now Ill go F myself lol.
  • 7 0
 I don't appreciate you providing compelling evidence for me to buy an e-bike.
  • 1 1
 I have done only 4 test rides on an ebike so far, I'll be honest :
The 2 biggest downsides are battery related pollution and price.
Then the weight/charging which take away some peace of mind (hike/bike scenarios, carrying the bike in stairs to an apartment, more stressful to keep it in a not so secure place...).

To each their own about how much weight you put into those matters.

But the amount of fun is quite addictive... Ah also that, a part of (an already instant-satisfaction addicted) me fears like the "normal" biking might loose its taste more and more, kind of like adding sugar to every meal, until the day you decide to consume less of it
  • 2 0
 My switch to an ebike surprised me with this contradictory feeling of being absolutely wrecked after a ride. Then I went on another ride the next day. Same result. Now add the fact that I'm getting out for like 3 times more riding because time constraints no longer appply. So I'm basically pushing way harder because the bike encourages it and getting out more frequently to do it. Getting an E-bike for "fitness reasons" wasn't on my 2023 bingo card.
  • 1 0
 @m47h13u: yeah dude I totally agree. Ebike haters are going to punch air to this one lol
  • 1 0
 "...saving a kilogram (2.2 lb) from your bike will only make you go about 0.2% to 1% faster, depending on how steep the hill is."
Depends where the weight is; unsprung rotating mass makes a HUGE difference.
  • 3 0
 Take a look at what Steve from vorsprung has to say about this topic.
youtu.be/Aq4yliFHBO8?si=FlDTpZwP5mwFC3sH
  • 1 0
 Thanks for sharing. I never thought about how the power meter doesn't measure vertical displacement or energy lost to the suspension
  • 1 0
 Came here to post this. It’s mostly impossible to measure climbing performance of various suspension designs.
  • 2 0
 This article is probably more relevant to old farts like myself than the cool kids who "shred or die" lol.
  • 3 0
 Got it, don't buy Maxxis tires.
  • 1 0
 What’s a good fast rolling tire option that I could reasonably run for light enduro/trail riding (160mm front 140 mm rear bike). I have a DH bike for the proper gnar
  • 2 0
 Continental Kryptotal FR in Enduro Soft with a Xynotal in Trail Endurance out back...
  • 2 0
 I weight about 87 kgs and ride a Trek Fuel. I put Vittoria Agarros on it, and they roll so much better than a typical enduro tire. They've been super durable for me, but I'm not trying to be a shredder and am attempting to pick lines, versus bashing. This setup is used on a lot of sharp rock terrain without issue. But hey, maybe I"m not going as full beans as others? Take a look at them. Maybe they'll be just what you're looking for.
  • 1 0
 @kkse: nice thanks man I’ll check em out. Where I live isn’t super rough, more fast and open anyway.
  • 1 0
 @KDix85: nice thanks I’ll take a look at those next time I need some rubber.
  • 2 0
 I didn’t like the xynotal. My favorite tire in that class is the new 2.4 nobby nic
  • 4 1
 a study with 33 riders is hardly rigorous data collection......
  • 2 0
 This is only relevant if you ignore the fact that absolutely everything to do with bike selection and setup is a compromise.
  • 1 0
 But as we discussed in a previous article...and links to poorly written article that tossed math around like a Neanderthal operating an ipad.
  • 2 0
 This was genuinely a refreshing, insightful, and entertaining article. Cheers Seb for improving morning dump time!
  • 2 0
 This has a very Jim Downey 'Deep Thoughts' vibe
  • 1 2
 The "I'll get there when I get there crowd" is simply lazy. It's amazing how much better your ride is when you feel great throughout its entirety. It ends up making you want to ride way more.
  • 3 3
 Depends what you're going for. Cardio? Yeah sure, get a light efficient bike. Strength in the legs and mind? Stick with a heavier bike
  • 1 1
 My alloy Patrol weights 39lbs, and has heavy slow tires, yet is consistently do 3800+ ft days on it... because I am stubborn lol
  • 1 1
 I think the question is... how much less efficient are you at climbing if you mount your tire before you add spokes to your rim?
  • 3 0
 I'm bored
  • 1 0
 Its all relative to:
1. Are you shuttling back to top?
2. Is your ride time sensitive?
3. Do you want more exercise?
  • 2 1
 The picture with the Pole e-bike is rotated to make it look steeper. And it's not the first time that's happened here.
  • 1 0
 Yeah, the old Mountain Bike Action trick! The trees never, or at least rarely, lie. Your bringing my attention to that though, also brought my attention to the fact that the previous photo of Kaz climbing in some dark woods seems to have the opposite situation. Props to Kaz, as that climb looks properly challenging.
  • 2 0
 Loose 15 pound and your climb quicker and save money.
  • 1 0
 I love the little bj to ebikes at the end, really tops off that meh article.
  • 1 0
 An article about climbing on a Gravity focused MTB website.........What's going on?
  • 5 5
 What if you live on a Ski Resort where there is ski-lifts in the Summer? How important is climbing?
  • 1 0
 100% agree Seb! great point and article.
  • 1 0
 Public opinion shaping right here.
  • 1 0
 Climbing efficiency matters as much as I think.
  • 1 4
 Nah, efficiency means shite unless you’re racing uphill.

I can ride anything I want because I’m fit and I stay fit.

It makes me cringe when people who are not fit complain about bike weight or spend more on lightweight bikes/components.

Just lose some weight and get in shape, problem solved.
  • 2 1
 Given similar performance for the part, or the whole bike, lighter is almost always better, regardless of fitness.
  • 1 0
 Given similar performance, lighter is almost always better.
  • 1 0
 This explains why enduro types I ride with are so lazy.
  • 1 0
 Loving this article/ good thoughts
  • 1 0
 "Hello, my name is Colin, and I am a weight weenie."

"HI COLIN!"
  • 1 0
 Great article.
  • 2 3
 This argument sounds very familiar...ebikes?







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