Pinkbike Poll: What If....?

Oct 11, 2017 at 23:35
by Richard Cunningham  
Specialized Epic Ultimate Carbon
The 1992 Specialized Epic Ultimate Carbon may have been the best of the "black aluminum" carbon bikes. Carbon tubes were glued into titanium lugs and socket-type dropouts, which were fabricated by Merlin Metal Works. The Specialized FSX fork also featured bonded-carbon-tubes. – Pro's Closet photo


Would you ride bike park trails on a carbon bike? It wasn't all that long ago when the overwhelming answer would have been, "Hell no!" If you were then pressed to answer: "What if the frame were stronger and more durable than the aluminum one you are riding now?" The most probable reply would be, "You'll never convince me that a carbon frame could be trusted."

The first "carbon" frames were basically aluminum or titanium frames with the straight sections replaced by carbon tubes. Unsurprisingly, they cost more and often weighed more than an unmolested aluminum or titanium frame did at the time. Component makers followed suit, replacing aluminum with carbon tubes for stems, fork sliders, and cockpit items, and after those over-hyped products underwhelmed, carbon was downgraded by its detractors (especially, by the cycling media) as "black aluminum" and the proponents of the material are still fighting their way out of that corner.
Specialized Epic Ultimate Carbon 1992
Close-up of the Merlin-made titanium dropouts. – Pro's Closet photo

Carbon wasn't at fault. The pathetic debut of carbon fiber as a frame material fell upon the shoulders of bicycle industry designers and manufacturers, who were locked into the vision that a bicycle frame was nine sticks of pipe, joined together with molten metal and could not create outside of that box. Carbon fiber's promise of greater strength and stiffness at significantly lower weights would not be realized until the manufacturing process was re-tooled, from conception through final product, to take advantage of pre-impregnated materials and molded monocoque-style construction techniques. It was a steep learning curve, but the end result was that carbon became the performance material of choice.

Trek Y22
It was Trek that commercialized the first manufacturing process for laid-up carbon mountain bike frames. The Y22 featured their OCLV monocoque design, which stood for "Optimum Compaction/Low Voids." It was crude, but a solid first step. – Plezurider photo


The take-away here is that the material was the same. It was the adoption of technology and manufacturing techniques, new to the cycling industry that turned failure into success. Few remember that it took almost 20 years to develop high-performance aluminum frames that could withstand the test of time – a feat largely made possible by FEA software, newly modified alloys, and innovations in butting and shaping tubes. There have been many inventions in cycling that have left riders with sour tastes because they failed initially or were rejected as a fantasy. Later, a number of them became viable products due to the introduction of a new material, a manufacturing technique, or a new design standard. So, the question for today's poll is simply: "What if..."
Unno Bikes
Unno carbon DH chassis detail. – Cero Design photo


What if press-fit bottom brackets never creaked?


2013 Specialized Carbon Demo BB assembly

Cavalerie Anakin bike review. www.thomasgaffneyphotography.com

What if gearbox drivetrains were almost the same weight as derailleur drivetrains?






What if lightweight tires were immune to cuts?


WTB Ranger 2.8 plus tire - review

Szymon Godziek full extedned.

What if clip-in pedals were developed by freestyle competitors?



What if your derailleur shifted automatically for you at a preselected rpm or torque setting?


Shimano Di2 2015

Reynolds DH wheels




Liteville 601 2015

Push ElevenSix review

What if your suspension always performed 95-percent or better, but had no external user-adjustments?



What if prototype DH bikes, specially designed to be ridden without saddles were winning races?


Beta Evo trials motorcycle
Beta Evo trials motorcycle.

Hope HB.211 Enduro 2016

What if only the cockpit components of a mountain bike were interchangeable, but service and spare parts were readily accessible?





338 Comments

  • + 1104
 what if... the prices went down
  • + 83
 the question they didn't bother to ask Frown
  • + 323
 What if we stop putting out click bait polls to impress perspective advertisers with our traffic numbers?
  • + 60
 I would spend the same, just have more stuff!
  • + 28
 I feel like prices are going down slightly thanks to brands starting to sell direct to the consumer
  • + 11
 That's a GOOOOOOD one!!!
  • + 12
 Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
  • + 82
 @jeremiahwas: Yeah but you pay thousands and get entry level and are told by the industry its not good enough. Bikes are a rip off. Top end motorcross bikes cost less than top end downhill bikes. Justify that one please
  • - 40
flag Scotj009 (Oct 20, 2017 at 13:50) (Below Threshold)
 99% of people answering these polls have no clue what they are deciding, some of these questions are just stupid! Neg prop away but a waste of an article!
  • + 7
 @bbachmei: So when your bikes not working and the lbs is gone...Just playing devils advocate!
  • + 7
 Ohhhh prices has gone down a lot. Compared to what a mid rangen MTB was prized in the 90 and now they have gone down a lot.
  • - 8
flag Scotj009 (Oct 20, 2017 at 13:52) (Below Threshold)
 Have you tryed making one... again playing devils advocate!
  • + 8
 @jclnv: Perspective advertisers, so Pinkbike's branching out into Art Classes too? Cool!
  • + 5
 @Paul7189: They sell far more which results in lower wholesale prices per part, shipping, labour ect...
  • - 2
 @greglikesspecialized: I think in todays world you have to be really narrow minded to think that bikes are expensive, look at the calibre bossnut that things cheap as hell!
  • + 12
 So much of the time for me it comes down to price. Not performance.
  • + 22
 @Paul7189: If you look at what the top pros are riding and compare top end to top end a motocross bike will far surpass the cost of a top end mountain bike.

Top end forks that will outperform my factory forks on my KTM $8000 Can
Engine Mods (Head, cylinder, piston, crank etc) $5000+ Can
Exhaust system $1700 Can
Wheels $2000+ Can

and this is just what us mortals can get our hands on. When Mitch Payton was contemplating adding a 450 to his Monster Energy Pro Circuit Kawasaki team he built a prototype Bike for Ryan Villopoto. That bike was estimated at $80000, a far cry from what you find on a dealership floor.

I race with vet riders that have bikes over $20000 and thats suspension, Exhaust, cams, upgraded brakes, wheels and graphics. No changes to cooling system, stock internals, or transmission parts.
  • + 52
 Why are prices so high, oh Jesus, grow up people, seriously... as if you snowflakes wouldn't like to get paid more for whatever that is that you do for money. I want a raise damn it! But I want prices of bike parts to go down, so I want others to earn less! Get the hell out of here, you bloody hypocrites
  • + 10
 @Scotj009: You fix it yourself or send it away to be fixed. None of the bike shops around me can even do a lower leg service or even get the kit.
  • + 10
 I feel like I could easily enjoy any form of cycling without half of the innovations and standards from the past decade. IMO pools like this are only a future money prospect guide for companies. I'm out.
  • - 1
 @choppertank3e: That's most likely because people don't support them and therefore it isn't worth worth them doing it!

If the consumer was more supportive of the bike shop they would be able to help far more!

Besides do you really want to send you whole bike away to fix that mysterious creak or the gears or something like that?
  • + 6
 @WAKIdesigns: Nailed it Salute

Ask for money off your gas bills or your house, or your weekly food shop, your bike is a far smaller cost than a house or anything that goes with it!
  • - 17
flag Scotj009 (Oct 20, 2017 at 14:45) (Below Threshold)
 @kovaldesign: A guide for companies lol

Half these people have no clue what they're talking about, that includedes me
  • + 50
 What if you could ride last year's kit/bike/parts. For half the price but....
Just as fast.....
  • + 7
 People always want all three things. Price service quality. You can get two of three together but not all three. That's just the world we live in and this statement goes for almost everything.
  • + 18
 @indydave124: But there is still more value in an $8000.00 dirt bike than an equivalent priced mtn bike.
  • - 1
 @DJ-24: until you run out of gas money
  • + 8
 What if.... these poles weren't so inane.
  • + 22
 @DJ-24: What would you consider and equivalent priced MTB? 8K MTB vs 8K Moto is not a fair comparison in any way. If its just dollar you are looking at, then no the value isnt there but look at Best Moto you can buy compared to Best MTB you can buy and you have a fair comparison. If you go into a Moto dealer say Honda, they will have 2 450 models. A CRF 450R and a CRF 450X, one is a track bike the other is a trail. If you go into a Rocky Mountain dealer you will find at least 5 different specs on the same model with different frame material choices. We can virtually buy the same bikes as the top pros in the MTB world (other then prototypes) but try to purchase a top end Motocross bike and see what you spend.

Everything is expensive and value really is a matter of perspective. I don't see the value in top end golf sticks but someone else does. I dont see the value in $600 football boots but I'm sure many others will. Products and services are only worth what people are willing to spend on it. That is basic economics. People dont work for free and companies need to turn a profit or they die. Money is the life blood of all business. If there was not money to be made then business would not be in that industry. If you didnt make money at work would you still go in? If people were not buying bikes and demanding better product from the manufactures then they would not exist.
  • + 16
 @WAKIdesigns: more than happy for CEOs to get a bit less at the end of the year. Probably most of people doing the work are on the minimum the company can get away with paying.
  • + 3
 Doesn't matter... I'm a bikeaholic.
  • + 6
 Question: What if your expectation wasn't that carbon on everything is the best thing you can get for your MTB?
Answer: your bike already gets much cheaper, and 95% of the riders, can't really tell a difference anyway. Just buying because some brand marketing guy tells you its the best thing to have...
  • + 16
 @WAKIdesigns: has your pay doubled in 10 years ?
  • + 4
 @Paul7189: And that's why I bought a Yamaha wr450 instead of full squish.
  • + 7
 @rockyflowtbay:

It's not Price vs Performance. It should come down to Value.

Value being the amount of Performance or Reliability you are getting for the amount of money you are paying.
  • + 2
 @Scotj009: and a total piece of crap!! very cramped and sit up and beg positioning. good luck on the trails with that one.
  • + 8
 @Paul7189: You can walk into a shop and get a DH bike that is 95% the same as what WC riders are on.

Just try that for moto Smile It's will cost you six figures. You're not making an apples to apples comparison. The "top end" mx bike at your dealer IS entry level for anyone who is serious about it.
  • + 1
 @Paul7189: There is a lot of R&D that goes into mountain bikes. There’s also a good amount of competition out there so if there are cheaper ways of doing things while still being able to run a business, I’m sure they’re doing it. Even YT, cutting out the middle man and all, has good prices but they’re still not cheap. People often compare bikes to moto and I don’t think it’s a straight ahead comparison. We’re not talking diamonds here where one company is propping up an artificial market. There’s, advertising, distribution, production, etc, etc. They’ve all gotta’ make a buck and they’ve all got budget bikes in their lineup to balance the universe.

If it weren’t for the ‘high’ prices of the flagship bikes we’d still be on Target and Walmart huffys.
  • + 4
 @jclnv: i don't see what the problem is even if that is the case. pb needs to make money, and 'mtb' while growing isn't exactly pop culture. pulling money into the arena and creating business around it (advertising among other sources of exposure) will only yield awareness.

ill click bait to support these doods.
  • + 3
 @jclnv: what if you just didn't click then to set an example? Oh wait, then you couldn't complain in the comments...filthy PB...
  • + 0
 @Dustfarter: funny enough people seemed to be ok with that fact back then when i was riding MX. Mountainbikers are different. Or are they just moar betterer riders Overall so they need everything to be 'factory'?
  • + 0
 Prices have been going down so much over the last 20 years, compared to buying power and what you get for your money, I don't think there's much room left.
  • + 7
 They will, ebike prices are embarrassing a lot of manufacturers right now, the price of top end bikes are a fucking piss taking joke.
  • + 1
 @jclnv: Oh shut up, you did the poll didn't you.
  • + 5
 @WAKIdesigns: not quite correct once more. Scales of economy and inflation and demand are the basis and then which pricing model is applied. In this industry one generally uses an emotional pricing model which works rather well. But it is going out of proportion. If we draw a comparrison to a brand which in a product category of similar scale to that of trek or specialized, in this example I take KTM e motorbikes. I get a hell of a lot for the money compared to a dh bike or e bike from an mtb brand. As customers we should not get over it as we create the demand. It is in out control by just not buying. It is not a simple matter or getting over it.
  • - 1
 @Dustfarter: mate ....... if I had better skills I could go buy the new ktm 450 sxf and be competitive in any championship in the world , fact ! May have to get a suspension guru to tweak her !
  • + 4
 @jclnv: this and the last few click bait articles make me feel like a whore. I know they're just doing it to drive numbers up, but I just can't help clicking.
  • + 1
 ..
  • + 13
 I have no idea how people complain about bike prices! I live in kosovo on of the poorest countries in EU. I ride a freaking scott genius carbon 710 model 2013. It was expensive for my standards for sure. But the rest of world complaining about prices for me is ridicules. If you have an avarage salary in europe that'd be around 3k +. You can buy a pretty damn good bike with 1 or 2 monthly salarys. And i mean a damn good bike. Do you guyz ever wonder how amazing good quality bikes are? I mean you can buy a bike and keep it for at least 5 years and in the end you can sell it for like one third of original price. I am not sure the people who complain work at all or not. But bikes are not as expensiv3 as you are making them look. Work your asses off and bike a good bike.
  • + 5
 Not all bikes or parts are expensive, the top stuff is but do you need the top stuff, really? I guarantee that 99% of the folks who complain about "prices" don't ride to the 'max' of what they've bought. The fact is that there IS choice out there and we've never had it better when it comes to bang-for-buck. You can spend £8000 on a very good bike if you want but you can also spend £1000 on a very good bike. For the most part the only realistic benefit most riders see from spending big money on top end XYZ tyres/saddle/bars/rims etc etc is that it makes you feel good (basic Self Gifting Consumer Behaviour), but if it makes you feel bad then don't!
Stop believing the marketing & comparing yourself to the pros and be realistic about what you need to have fun!
  • + 5
 @Matt115lamb: what? So according to you prices of bikes have doubled in the last 10 years? You have to come back to after you do your research right, like get a bike/components catalogue from 2004. Because I remember quite well the prices of my dream bikes and components. Like Marzocchi Super T costing 1100$ and you just can’t compare that crap to a current Boxxer. These days SLX costs just a notch over LX from many years ago, and it’s a much better product. Top of the line Cannondale Scalpel costed 8k$ and didn’t even have carbon frame or rims. I couldn’t even dream of a bike like Capra when I was buying my Nomad in 2008
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: I have a super t which still works and a buddy of mine makes a ton of money on servicing rockcrap products in the Alps. Boxxers ridden hard will fail within a single season. I built top end bikes 10 years ago for around 5 grand, with hope, xtr, yaddah yaddah yaddah. Now a similar top shelf build is 8k and upwards. I also see a lot of snapped and cracked yt bikes everywhere. Once again factually I beg to differ.
  • + 2
 @Keit: cracked yt everywhere? Hahaha where mate? I mean you can see every kind of bike time to time, but saying everywhere its a bit too much i think.
  • + 2
 @Scotj009: Nah its just a numbers game. The only cool bike shop I knew here went under. The rest are roadie stores who just can't carry the niche inventory. If you aren't buying a new bike they aren't interested in helping you. Even the best shop Ive ever know didn't treat me like a citizen until I had spent over $3000 dollars with them and then it was the good cop bad cop routine where sometimes Id get a good deal and sometimes I'd get shafted. Never had a creak I couldn't fix myself. Bikes aren't that complicated and when bike shops no longer exist like bookstores and record shops hopefully they will become easier to service. I think additive manufacturing will eventually replace everything any way. Just download a design and print.
That said if anyone knows a good bike shop they could recommend in West Aus I will take a punt.
  • + 1
 @Scotj009: its not a cery good argument when your list of cheap bikes is one bike dude
  • - 1
 @Keit: Super T weighed a ton and had no low speed compression damping which made it dive like a Scottsman after a penny. I rest my case.

So you have seen plenty of broken YTs? Can you describe each case with one sentence? Where, what model, whatcolour?

Go fact yourself
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: waki read carefully. My super t still works after having bottomed out more than all of your statements unlike boxxers. And I said I have seen many snapped and cracked yt bikes. If you would ride big mountains you would see this. And since you are so prominent you should have all the facts at hand. I cannot share my experience? Do you ever present any facts? Kettle pot tut tut.
  • + 1
 @choppertank3e: That sounds like an opportunity to me...
  • + 1
 Second.
  • + 1
 @nzobust: also second
  • - 5
flag WAKIdesigns (Oct 21, 2017 at 10:39) (Below Threshold)
 @Keit: so you still ride a Super T and bottom it out often, despite the fact that HSCV allowed for decent bottom out control. Wow, just wow. You must be terrifyingly fast with such front end stability. Your reports are worth a lot mate. NOT. Well if you've seen plenty of broken YTs then you must have seen plenty of other broken frames. Unless you worked there as a mechanic, watching people come in with broken frames, or you were a phonie in YT warranty service, then your "facts" are worth crap. And you said you value the Truth? Well, I say what I see in workshops around town, and broken YTs are a rare sight there, even though it happens. I saw at least 10 broken Trek frames - how? I am at Trek store often? What does it say about Trek bikes? How about - absolutely NOTHING?! Bought an expensive, color matched bike, kitted with Hope and carbon rims, and have a bit of anxiety related to decent bikes worth 1/3rd of yours?

Facts... you are an idiot. No point to talk to you again. ever. The very thought of how pointless and miserably unfunny your rebuttal can be, makes me puke inside my mouth. I got dumber with every word you wrote. Good luck Mr.T
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: far enough I may have exaggerated a little on prices having doubled in 10yrs BUT if you take into consideration that inflation, the cost of living and the lack of wages increase most people are a lot worse off than they were 10yrs ago !
  • + 2
 What if... you had an original thought
  • + 3
 @amirazemi: spot on, mate!
  • + 5
 @WAKIdesigns: As a 5 decade old libertarian voting citizen of the leftist socialist republik of Kalifornia, you just espoused an epiphany that the majority of the pixie dust tossing, cupcake farting, gender bunching, free speech intolerating, safe space seeking, echo chamber hyperbolous, co`dependant blunt brain baked youngsters will ever figure out until they are my age.

Then the irony will be, THAT unlike myself, the same majority will no longer be shredding a bike because they will long lost the emeaning of what is really improtant in life.
  • + 1
 @Paul7189: "Top end motorcross bikes" (think Tomac, Musquin, Dungey etc.) cost WAAAAY more than the stock mx's and dh bikes on the showroom floor that you're referring to.
  • + 4
 @Paul7189: actually last year there was an estimate done and top level motocycles like the ones raced by guys like Ryan dungeybare valued at around 100,000$..
  • + 7
 @limkilde: no one ever looks back to when a rigid alloy 8 speed bike with cantis cost $2k.

For $1550 NZD I can buy a trek roscoe off the floor, with a 1x11 drive train, 130mm fork, and a dropper seatpost, and hydraulic disc brakes. The price of what a capable bike costs has come way down.

@paul7189 you're wrong. The industry doesn't tell you it's shit. That's your own issue. The performance out of a $1,500 bike today blows a $4k bike from 5 years ago out of the water. Disregarding spec, even just geo-wise they're make your day getting up and down a hill easier and more fun.

The value of this year bicycles has grown dramatically with shimano releasing deore m6000 with a 11-42 cassette they have brought 1x drivetrains to the masses for a fraction the cost of GX. SR Suntour has managed to market themselves as a brand worth owning and now are dominating the entry level price point with some stellar suspension products worthy of more praise.
  • + 4
 @DJ-24: this is a retarded comment. Moto's are incredibly simple machines. Until recently I had kept moto's at arms reach. But recently I have had to investigate them much more thoroughly. Their construction is so basic, their linkage is so rudementary, the fit and finish of a moto is non-existent. Sure you get a motor. But you need to the service the shit out of that thing. So little attention to detail, so little attention to grams wasted. Just welded up, bolted together and cover with some plastic fairings. I expected so much more from a dirt bike. They come in one size, they don't appear to have any difference in geometry, or spec choice. An "enduro" bike vs a "motocross" bike seems to be an electric start and a headlight, more guards and maybe a little higher case height.

You go and look at a modern mountain bike for $8k from one of the big names and the details are so much better. Can't hide big ugly welds with a sheet of plastic on a bike.

Honestly with how big motocross is, I was greatly disappointed by the product. Just everything looks to subscribe to the "make it beefy, and as cheap as possible" with limited regard to weight, performance, aesthetic.
  • + 8
 @WAKIdesigns: ahhh, there it is! When WAKI runs out of intelligent things to say, he resorts to name calling. Once again WAKI is the authority on EVERYTHING. Keyboard jockey
  • + 1
 @indydave124: This patter is pathetic, stop comparing bicycles to motorsport. This nonsense has been the curse of mountainbiking since Palmer hit the scene in the 90's. Get over it.
  • + 2
 @bonfire: I think your wrong in most things here !
Sizing can be changed by certain adjustments ie ; forks to clamp height . Geo , not really an issue as with Mx/enduro/trail riding you’ll all be going up down over things and jumping things . You may think there linkage is faff but there’re not . The motor differences between the Mx/enduro are vast . A lot of money goes on weight loss but when you got 60+bhp under your ass a couple of grms hear and there don’t matter . Go ride one for a day and you’ll be glad there’re made beefy !
  • + 1
 @Scotj009: bike shops like any business need to adapt. Lots of trade possibilities installing and fixing bikes that clueless people (most bikers) can't or won't work on themselves
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: Smile you contradict yourself sir. The simple and the vicious are simply swayed. You have been swayed in less than a few words.
  • + 3
 @Matt115lamb: you are correct with your statement of bicycle prices.
  • + 1
 @properp: next season's MTB bikes and parts will be out before I run out of gas money.
  • + 5
 @indydave124: You nailed something there in the middle of your post (without actually saying it). Very "average" mountain bikers are buying bikes that are almost no different from World Championship Winning race machines. You can get Loic Bruni's winning bike at your LBS you can't buy Eli Tomac's bike at your local motorcycle shop. For 90% of riders the aluminum, Deore spec'ed version of WC winning bike would be fine (just like my stock KX450f is more moto than I will ever need). Other than being lighter and inpressing people that are impressed by shiny things, most riders aren't getting any more out of the $10,000 carbon fiber frame, carbon rims and top level shifting. The fact is no one but pro level riders benefit from the $10,000 bikes. The only reason bikes are "overpriced" is consumers are buying bikes out of their league.
  • - 1
 @BetterRide: not only that, a modern 4000$ bike is way better than 4k bike from 10 years ago. A well setup 4k 160 bike from 2017 like base Giant Reign would easily outride a 2007 DH bike like Giant Glory - both due to suspension and geometry. Oh and the brakes... Price whinnies also forget that 2007 S-Works Enduro (that you owned if I remember right) costed 7100$, and it just cannot compare to current S-Works Enduro 29 at 10000$ which adds: carbon everywhere, DROPPER POST, wide rims, better tyres, much better BRAKES, ultimate level suspension from Öhlins, lighter and more reliable drivetrain (n/w chainring), bonuses like SWAT box. E29 in basic build can easily give a 2012 DH run for it's money, and easily outclimbs anything from 2012 that isn't an XC bike, as long as we keep same tyres.
  • + 0
 @bonfire: I remember 2008 when you could buy a norco bigfoot freeride hardtail with Marzocchi 55s and hydrualic disc brakes for $899 so tell me again how the price of stuff has gone down.
  • - 3
 @mhoshal: www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/bikes/mountain-bikes/product/review-norco-bigfoot-9025

Let’s say that 899 for 2008 Bigfoot is MSRPn not a blow out sale on pricepoint.

Now let’s look at a comparable bike for MSRP at 1500€ and analyze it:

26bikes.com/shop/bikes/enduro-allmountain/prod/dartmoor-hornet-2017

Better geometry, better brakes, better drivetrain and comparable if not a better fork (55 was an absolute crap).

Now I can list some more stuff: in 2005 I bought new Hayes MAG brakes for 180$ each (today I get new Zees in that price on bike components de) and new Manitou Black Comp for 350$ (Two years ago I paid that for a new Reba). Then in 2006 I bought 66RC2X for 800$ on sale. 100$ cheaper than Lyrik last year. Performance of both forks is uncomparable. Over 2lbs lighter, real damping. 2008 - I buy a Nomad frame for ca 2000$. 2012 - Whole bike costed me over 3500$. Ermm... Capra, Spectral, Radons? Far better than my 2008 Nomad?
  • + 2
 @indydave124: BS. most people modifying modern motorcycles beyond controls and suspension are just ego stroking. theyre nowhere near good enough to ride a stock bike to its potential
  • + 1
 @PinkyScar: aren't most poles inane? oh wait you meant "polls"
  • + 4
 @WAKIdesigns: you obviously never owned or rode a super t or similar. Please read carefully, I said it still lives, not in my hands. Next point trek sells more bikes than yt.... If failure rates were public , based on my experience, would like to postulate a different scenario. Next point facts. You never present any. You are rude, simple minded, easily provoked, why would I even make an effort to present you with facts. PS vomit goes in the toilet or bin and should not be regurgitated via keyboard ninja antics. We have a saying in many European languages and you are full of it and more. Vai para caralho
  • + 1
 @dirtchurner: you made me smile. Thank you
  • + 1
 @properp: that ain't gonna change! So I always buy a used high quality frame & fork...then a new shock and new old stock components. My last build totaled $3200!
  • + 1
 @shedsidechuck: $2600 www.pinkbike.com/photo/14354296 the last new bike I built for my wife.
  • + 1
 @shedsidechuck: $2800 on carbon hoops the last new bike I built for myself. Lots of clearance shopping and eBay deals. www.pinkbike.com/photo/14898234
  • - 3
 www.pinkbike.com/photo/13652713
Costed me 3500€... a regular, smart person, with smaller mouth (paying full price for the frame) would not pay more than 5,5k. And I still paid 250$ too much for that stupid Hope Crankset. But well... Enve costs... so does Di2 or Eagle...
  • + 1
 @jenlee2008: The calibre is not cramped!
  • + 1
 @mhoshal: YT, canyon, Radon
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: hmm list price 2999 no shock. Add 400 shock. You were saying?
  • - 3
 @Keit: 3400€ - you’ll easily build a more than decent bike under 5,5k on that frame. At least as long as you stay away from stupid crap like carbon bars or rims

SLX 11sp groupset 300€, brakes 250€, wheelset hope+EX471/FlowMk3 400€, dropper 250€, controls 200€, tyres+ sealant 100€, Fork 650€.

Boom! Waaay better than some Santa Cruz in posh build. On boutique frame. Get some Commencal Meta on a sale out and you cut the price by 2k. So for 3,5k you get a custom bike that stands for 98% of what’s possible with best bike tech...
  • + 2
 @Keit: SMILES are FREE just like hugs but when I do that I get in fights. SO! I stick to giving out smiles. My honor MTB brother from another
  • + 1
 @Keit: Let me give you some details on what you suggest. The KTM Freeride E. I just got my hands on a 2016 model (2 months before the 2018 model came out with a 50% bigger battery). The 2016 retailed for around 11k. I bought it for 6 brand new from a dealer. The price of a middle to top end mountainbike. The KTM comes in a low-end spec (which is a mix of under-performing formula brakes and the suspension from their 85 kids models). It is rideable (and I use it to work on my balance, not on my whips over 60ft gaps), but so is a 1500$ full suspension mountain bike. That's what you need to compare it to: thats could be 5-10x the price of the mountain bike.
  • + 1
 @meph: don’t bother, he owns a color matched Starling with carbon rims and says bikes are too expensive. It’s like a dude who buys a Lambo and complains about fuel consumption. And then he gets supported by another dude who is 50, has owned plenty of expensive bikes and to make it even better, effectively calls me a millenial with 1st world problems.

As usual, when a bunch of folks find “something that is wrong with the whole world” it means they are bloody hipocrites, accusing other of their own treats.
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: good god man I said their pricing is disproportionate. Can you read or just read what you want to think and say.
  • + 3
 @meph: yes the KTM is list 11k and so is a Santa Cruz V10. Thank you for demonstrating the point. Now whixh of the two has more components, materials, distribution costs, etc? The pricing of bicycles is disprotionately high. A decade ago we joked about a top shelf dh bike of 10 grand. There were 1 or 2 around sure. But now we have trek, Speccy, Santa Cruz, and many others.
  • + 1
 And you have forgotten my Turner, my Yeti, and a few others not pictured.
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: your bike cost more than 3500 list. You present false information again. You should not be allowed to have a voice.
  • - 1
 @Keit: the pricing is disproportionate because they produce stuff that makes no sense, because people buy it. Gladly. And they produce that stuff having limited access too tooling compared to large car and motorcycle companies. Then you have an issue like moto and automotive are subsidized by the state. The scale is not comparable by any means. Carbon bars, cranks, ceramic bearings and electronic shifting - Where do you find such useless stuff on a moto for 10k?

Again 3,5k for a full suspension bicycle that offers 95% available performance, is not much to ask. Everything above 4k is masturbation. Unless you want to pay for a thing as Starling or Sick Bicycles or Unno which at laest for me, is understandable and admirable. You can also go on AliExpress and build a carbon bike for 3,5k... then I genuinely wish you to crash due to breaking carbon bar for 40$ and getting 30$ carbon seat post in your bum. Then I hope carbon splinter gives you ass cancer so you need to walk around with colostomy bag.
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: starling is 1500 for a full custom frame which outclasses anything I have ever ridden; and full custom is fully tailor fit. Automobile industry you say. Also uses an emotional pricing model. Another great example. An fk2 type r outperforms a BMW i8 on everything except 0-60. Keep going waki... It's raining the next week down here. So how much did you really spend on the antidote?
  • - 4
flag WAKIdesigns (Oct 23, 2017 at 1:29) (Below Threshold)
 @Keit: I paid 3500E for my bike. Regular person would pay 6k E for it. If I saw you on the street today I would gladly punch you in the face. Then kick you on the ground right in your stomach. You piece of crap
  • + 2
 @dirtchurner: I was utterly shocked by his pro doping comments on the EWS Artikel; enough is enough. Thank you once more. Perhaps in this exercise I learn your patience.
  • - 3
 All those years I had to stop myself... thank you mate. I’m in piece now. Huh... nothing personal. What a relief.
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: no you will not!
  • + 1
 @Paul7189: Smaller market
  • + 1
 @jclnv: Web developers don't need polls to see their websites traffic numbers..
  • + 1
 @Scotj009: The LBS has never turned a wrench on my bike, never will.
  • + 1
 @oevets4130: I was responding to another comment that made the comparison. I was not the one making the comparison.
My comment was based on value between the two and the poster was comparing a 8K MTB to a 8K Moto. I was pointing out that he was comparing entry level Moto to top level MTB.
  • + 1
 @drunknride: A lot of guys are modifying motocross bikes to change the power delivery so they better suit their individual riding style. I like to rev my bikes out and ride more on the top end and I don't like bikes with a lot of bottom end power but I also want a strong mid range. Some riders like a lot of torque and modify to add more bottom end power. Changing the exhaust, cams and remapping helps to set up a bike to the individual. Yes some guys go for max power but most guys I've ridden with overt the years are just getting a bike setup so they feel most comfortable.

I do agree most riders MTB and Moto cant ride their bikes to its potential But that still doesn't mean they shouldnt try to make the bike work better for their individual needs and riding style.
  • + 0
 Because you think you're better Rolleyes
  • + 3
 @Matt115lamb: Pretty sure Waki is from the Scandinavian country of Alabama.
  • + 1
 @Scotj009: I don't think I'm better, I just like my bikes to feel and perform a certain way. The mods I do to any of my bikes have the same result, my comfort on the bike. That's it, no ego or anything else. I keep my bikes for 5-6 years and I want them to fit me like a tailored suit. There is no point riding a bike that I am uncomfortable on.
  • + 1
 @indydave124: the fast the bike the sooner you have brake Wink
  • + 1
 @fruitsd79: don’t get me involved in the waki baiting ! Lol
  • + 1
 @Matt115lamb: That's why for Moto I ride KTM, they have Brembos! And MTB I have Saints and XTR! I like to be able to stop fast if need be!
  • + 1
 @bbachmei: Prices are not going down. ;p)
  • + 2
 @Paul7189: this is a false statement. the bike that AG rides can be bought today for about $5000. A stock KTM enduro bike will cost you about $11,000 OTD before you likely dump $2000-$3000 into it just for accessories, battery, guards, tubeliss, pipe, etc. Once you do all of this you have a decent bike to take to the local trails and have fun w/ your buddies but there isn't a pro in the world that would ride it to the grocery store without stripping it down to the frame and adding another 30-50k in mods and you'd need to change motors and swap parts out constantly adding many thousands per year. bikes are the cheapest wheeled racing sport there is.

nobody needs a lot of this crazy exotic stuff that is pushed on us. look at the poll they did about aluminum rims vs carbon. a lot of pros don't want carbon because they fail and can't complete a day of enduro so if thats the case why would anyone thats not sponsored want to pay all that money for them?

the $5000 bike with a solid set of aluminum wheels, 1x drivetrain, any one of the good braking systems and a middle to top notch fork is more than enough for 95% of the MTB'ers on the planet. the average joe can get by w/ much less.
  • + 2
 @indydave124: thank you for pointing this out. I should have scrolled down further before going on my diatribe above. you are a gentleman and a scholar.
  • + 1
 @DJ-24: nope. you spend $8K on a bike you have top o the line or damn close. spend that on a moto and you are just getting started and if you live anywhere near a major city you need to drive far to find the good trails. With a bike, you can ride a different awesome trail every day of the week. you also don't need trucks, trailers, toy haulers, etc.
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: dude, you are taking this whole thing waaaaay to seriously. This is a discussion on bicycles and you are wishing cancer on someone, f@$k off!
  • + 1
 @fruitsd79: no shit. Homeboy has to be the most Argo person on here! Who shit in his cereal this morning?
  • + 1
 @lightsgetdimmer: Wish I dad. Not cool Waki, not cool.
  • + 1
 @amirazemi: Just watched paradise waits (a ski movie) which had a segment in Kosovo. You guys know how to have fun with what you have instead of always waiting for the "next big thing"
  • + 1
 @WE-NEED-MORE-ROOST: hahah yea we call them kamikazi, nevertheless they have ton of fun they dont care about a damn thing Big Grin first time on skis and on jeans Big Grin
  • + 1
 @amirazemi: not really. I travel all over Europe to ride and see many in shops hanging on walls of death or at the side of trails and a few buddies with bad experiences. In fact I managed to sell my np scalp to a poor guy who went through two Tues. I like the way most of their bikes ride apart from the 27.5 tues. Besides it is an observation.
  • + 1
 @lightsgetdimmer: never did see the cancer comment. Well he should be thoroughly exposed now. Perhaps pinkbike becomes a nicer place again to address our mtb thirst on the cold and rainy days. And I apologise to all for dragging this out, I have no excuse other than I cannot change the world but I can try and address my world in an effort of improvement. Once again my sincerest apologies.
  • + 1
 @Keit: no sweat over here bud. Some ppl just taking riding a bicycle too serious.
  • + 118
 What if we spent less $$ on bikes and more $$ on trail building and advocacy?

What if we worked as hard on innovating trail features as we do on innovating bike parts?

I'd rather ride a crappy bike on a great trail than the other way around, and I'm more than happy to pay access fees to parks if they offer cool trails.
  • + 26
 Agree. It really is all about the trail, not the bike. I'd rather ride a rigid steel on a good trail than a tricked out plastic rocket on a lame one.
  • + 6
 Things that make you go hmmmmm....
  • + 3
 Praise
  • + 3
 200% with you. Tip my hat to you good sir.
  • + 4
 You should move to the UK. Our trail network is awesome within 2 hours, I have over 10 places to ride all with awesome trails and with ones I still don't know about I can assure you that will be over 20.
  • + 3
 @jewsef: aye. Lived all over Europe and despite many of the conditions in the UK being abismal (can say this being a brit and having experience to compare) the UK has the best trail centers that I have ridden. I really miss this part of the UK.
  • + 1
 @jewsef: right! I feel so lucky when I read about the problems faced by riders in the states over access rights etc. I’m in the midlands, I can reach some pretty rad places all under 3hrs. Some of the raddest are only 5 mins away. I’m still discovering new places to ride and will be for some time. The UK is just one big sprawling mess of trails and spots and it’s like a game seeking them out and ticking them off. The trail centres are like level 1 where everyone starts, bonus stages like bpw, boss stages like Revo and Wharny and the myriad of local trails and spots in between. Each time you complete one you’re led to the next level. I can go in any direction and revisit an old level, rack up some more exp to help me conquer that next boss level.
And there is always more in development. Only thing we could do with is a bit more sun from time to time Big Grin
  • + 4
 @dthomp325 I've never seen a crappy trail in my life and personally I'd prefer people didn't dig up the natural trails as much as they do in my area anyway sure man made features can be fun but i prefer riding single track trails filled with natural obstacles than these steamroller flat dull trails with a couple jumps in them
  • + 4
 @dthomp325 Damn dude, that is really one of those 'deep thoughts' moments that I wasn't expecting in the comment section. It makes sense though! I used to ride a trail network in GA (Chicopee Woods) that had a 'donation post'--you could always ride for free, but a few times a season I'd drop a $10 in the post because the trails were a) Close to my house and b) Had bathrooms and a hose for spraying off your bike. Living in OR now, I'd happily pay $5 a day to ride most of the trails, if I was assured that the money went straight into the maintenance/expansion of that trail network.

I don't need a 13 speed cassette or electronic shifting on my mountain bike. But more or better trails? Absolutely. You make a really good point.
  • + 1
 da real MVP
  • + 3
 @mhoshal: "natural" trails still need good design, especially if they are going to survive long term with any amount of traffic. I think a great recent example of a "natural" trail is the ews stage they built at Snowmass and then opened to the public, they did a great job on that one.

Where I live in CO, we have very few mtb trails outside of ski resorts, and we are stuck riding 2-way, multi-use hiking trails with gobs of people. This just doesn't work for a high-use area, and there are some optional hucks off rocks and such, but we have nothing resembling "jumps".

IMBA clubs' push for multiuser is stupid. They should be pushing hard for mtb trails or alternate day use when mtb trails aren't feasible.

Logging land has been great for riders in BC and WA, but not a lot of places have that. The rest of NA needs a different solution, and I'd absolutely love to see pay trails built for mtb where I live, either on public or private land.

I'd honestly write my local trail building org a $20k check today if they could deliver a one-way, mtb specific trail with features and grade.
  • + 2
 @dthomp325: Lol, someone negged you for your last comment.. haha, why? Perhaps they have never ridden outside of an area that has wonderful, natural single track by default. In many parts of the US that is simply not the case. I'd take technical single track over buffed flow trail any day, but even those trails need to be maintained/improved/preserved in some fashion (especially with increased use).

Thankfully IMBA is imploding (unfortunate for Dave, I like the guy). Chapters are dropping out left and right for, among other reasons, the dumbing-down of good mountain bike trails. I stopped sending them money 4 or 5 years ago. Well, I still have that money, and what hasn't gone to STC I'd happily donate locally for purpose-built bike access.
  • + 1
 I think this poll was made to check if customers will buy fox's new electric suspension stuff. Probably they will. But I won't. First, I don`t want any electric stuff on my bike. And second, I like to do my own suspension setup even though it won't be perfect in the end. To dial it in and change here and there a click is fun and I learned a lot about riding and the behaviour of the bike by all that.
  • + 73
 What if E-bikes had a throttle, gasoline engine ranging from 125-1000cc, and no pedals?
-Yes, thats what my motorcycles have
-no, I only like when I don't fit in to a specific category of rider
-undecided
  • + 30
 What if it was more fun to ride your bike than be upset with other people on PinkBike?
- Yes, I’ll experiment with the idea but will auto live tweet my Strava times
- It’s not possible. Being indignant makes me feel so good. It’s like I can see the whole world beneath me.
- Not sure; I’ve never ridden a bike but I know if I did it would be a home welded 26”plus titanium hardtail with a linkage fork, gearbox and drum brakes
  • + 7
 Make it 25 kg and not as noisy and you have a deal.
  • + 2
 @Altron: I think you've just won Pinkbike for the day. :-)
  • + 2
 @Altron: rekt
  • + 60
 What if Kyle Strait was never born and Rachel was still available?
- I'd work on my flips, 360's and drop skillz to win her over
- I'm gay
- I'm googling Rachel right now...
  • - 11
flag nvranka (Oct 20, 2017 at 13:02) (Below Threshold)
 Where's "not interested"
  • + 2
 Hahaha
  • + 52
 @nvranka: See option #2
  • + 14
 just did #3, will be doing #1 this weekend
  • - 5
flag nvranka (Oct 20, 2017 at 15:13) (Below Threshold)
 @AydinR: meh
  • + 58
 what if we swapped out bikes for unicorns and our local trails for rainbows?
  • + 51
 Undecided.
  • + 8
 Then we would be debating the dumbing down of natural tech rainbows by the iura.
  • + 7
 Are the rainbows raw or buffed out
  • + 1
 @bkm303: monochromatic these days
  • + 23
 Those fkrs on e-Unicorns will ruin the rainbows for all of us.
  • + 1
 I want the metal robot unicorn attacks version.
  • + 4
 @number44: Top comment
  • + 5
 Horseback riders are the worst. I don't want my rainbows trampled with hoof marks. It would increase rainbow erosion and eventually cause a complete ban on rainbow access for all recreation. And please PB, don't cover the e-version of this. I don't want this site to turn into some pink-e-unicorn.com website. Unicorn riding has traditionally been a nuclear-steam powered activity and I don't want to see that change.
  • + 50
 Was hoping I could say no to an ebike question
  • + 46
 What if I had no responsibilities and could ride my bike all day, every day?
  • + 1
 Exactly
  • + 2
 its freakin awesome man, except when i break shit then i need to find side-jobs to buy parts.
  • + 1
 @whitebullit: Less work, more riding, more parts breaking/wearing out, less money to fix/replace. It's a constant struggle. When I was busy working 5 days a week I spent nothing on my bike, riding 5 days a week and everything needs work.
  • + 1
 @bruvar absolutely man, luckily between my 5 bikes and side jobs ive been able to keep everything up and running
  • + 1
 @whitebullit: I broke two Carbon wheels this summer. You should see the dramatic effect this has on my credit card bills
  • + 3
 @properp: i can only imagine... aluminum 4 life bro. i have ex823's on 3 of my bikes, id be as bold to say they are amongst the toughest rims ever made for mountain bikes, i cased a 30 foot gap a couple years ago, back wheel completely on the backside of the top log of the tranny, pretty much perfectly centered on the weld too, any other wheel would of exploded but it just flat spotted about 10 inches or so, held psi and i rode out, i have the rim on the wall of shame downstairs ill have to upload a pic
  • + 4
 www.pinkbike.com/photo/15291017

so 10 inches was a bit of an exageration, more like 8 inches, but still...
  • + 2
 @properp: m.pinkbike.com/video/443524

and theres the footage! i was the guinea pig for this line, we ended up adding another log to the lip of the takeoff and it ran smoothhh, til it all got tore down Frown
  • + 4
 @whitebullit: I've been riding mountain bikes since before there were mountain bikes. I've never broken a mountain bike frame. I broke two carbon fiber Cannondale Jekyll. I have never broken an aluminum wheel. I have now broke into carbon fiber Wheels. I'm also an extremely heavy Rider at 135 lb. LOL the bike industry can take their carbon fiber crap and stick it where the sun don't shine. Nothing but overpriced underperforming bulshit.
  • + 37
 Why on earth would you choose press-fit over threaded!?!
I really want to know the reasons behind this.
Do you not service your own bike?
  • + 39
 I just love the feeling of replacing my BB every time I service it!
  • + 20
 cost is the only reason. the claim is a larger bearing, but this could have been achieved with threads as well. Threading costs more $$ to manufacture (tooling and time) to spec and takes slightly longer to inspect (thread plug gauge vs a bore gauge). The reason, is 100% cost.
  • - 11
flag Hetman64 (Oct 20, 2017 at 13:38) (Below Threshold)
 I had countless problems with threads f*cking up and having to go through a painful process of trying to screw the BB in and hoping to god that the BB threads inside the frame are still recoverable. We already have press-fit headsets, why not BBs? Aluminum is not a very good material for threading unless you treat it like a newborn child.
  • + 8
 isn't Press fit easier to install and uninstall? Isn't Press fit better for carbon fiber frames, since they don't require threads and since carbon frames can be made to get the exact fit? And also they are just cheaper to manufacture?

I remember a while back on a forum someone asking if there was a way to to unscrew his BB as he cross threaded it. Everyone on the forum was telling him the BB shell is probably screwed and that the frame is DOA. Ever since then I thought press fit was the solution. After reading time and time again about how press fit creaks people reall hate press fit BB's. I've never experienced the creaking noise yet.

I think there's pros and cons to both but I could never understand the full on hate for press fit.
  • + 3
 People have no clue!
  • + 4
 Pressfit is lighter, so if it was equally durable and uncreaky as in the imaginary Pinkbike wonderland - why not?
  • + 5
 @JoeRSB: Because threaded is easer to install and doesnt seize in, and I'm not so sure about the lighter claim, som road bikes stilll run threaded!
  • + 6
 Because nowhere else will you find threaded shells creating three parts to install two bearings that have to correctly align when you can use a single tube. There is a reason for this. Simply learn to use a bearing press correctly...
  • + 5
 @lukesky: I can use a bearing press Companys just cant make bb shells...

Also a threaded bb is far less likely to seize in my experience and they didn't discount seizing!
  • + 0
 @Hetman64: that is not a nice feeling. I once basically screwed my bike to death.
  • + 6
 That's user error not shit manufacturing!
  • + 5
 @Scotj009: Anything will seize if you don't prep the frame properly
  • + 3
 @mnorris122: True... but they still seize when the factory doesn't build it right or the user doesn't take care of the bike properly!
  • - 1
 @Scotj009: Oh you'd be surprised. You think people just jam the bbs in thinking it won't be damaged? I always clean the frame threads, clean the new bb threads and gently screw it in, but it still tends to cross thread etc.
  • + 1
 @LiquidSpin: So much this. Sure there can be trouble with press fit as well, but it's amazing how so many people suddenly seems to have forgotten about all the trouble that came with threaded BB's back in the days. So many coming loose and ruining the threads, the "pro tip" for a while that was actually really common was people getting Saint BB's since these had a longer threaded section so it would reach fresh threads in the frame inside of the ruined ones. Even the small shop I worked in had thread cutting tools that was often in use.
And they sure could seize up haha. Especially before you had external cups like Hollowtech II that had a good interface for the BB tool, those old Truvativ Isis, Shimano Octalink and what not... Damn.
  • + 1
 I do not think that, that sure as hell is one way but you can screw it up just by not paying attention, using the wrong cup or just unlucky or whatever...
  • + 1
 @lukesky: I don't have a bearing press. I do have two other less expensive bb tools already. People resist change especially when coupled with extra expense unless it is notably better and still take forever to do so.
  • + 0
 @LiquidSpin: I think most people that complain about press-fit bb's are probably Hammer mechanics. They probably add extra dirt and grime then go and complain about why does it make noise. I have never had an issue with any press-fit Shimano bottom bracket
  • + 2
 @choppertank3e: My bearing press is a hammer and a couple of different sizes of steel rod I found laying around... dirt cheap and works haha
  • + 1
 @taquitos: Yeah I got my headset in with a rubber mallet. Hardly ideal but a poor tradesman blames his tools. I guess a rich tradesman always has the right tool.
  • + 0
 Pressfit plastic shit always wears out and makes your cranks wobble. Always. Get it wobbling bad enough and you ruin your frame.

Threaded BB means you never have to worry about it ever again. Luckily, you can convert pressfit to threaded pretty easy. wheelsmfg.com/bottom-brackets.html
  • - 3
 @taquitos: you can beat on a dick also but there is a better way.
  • + 0
 @properp: you can be a dick but there is also a better way.

But seriously if you know what you're doing it's no big deal.
  • + 1
 @taquitos: dont be a sore dick. You cant beat that.
  • + 2
 @properp: hahaha oh it is hard to beat a sore dick. But I wouldn't know much about beating dicks
  • + 36
 I seriously doubt dh race bikes will ever not have a seat, it's an important tool for turning, stability, and most importantly safety. It simply doesn't benefit the rider enough to warrant removal.
  • + 15
 I thought this was a bit of a weird suggestion too. I could understand if DH racers ran their saddles slammed like a DJ bike but they don’t - some riders have em quite high, some lower (independent of their height sometimes) but you never see a racer with their saddle slammed for the reasons you mention. So duh...not gonna happen...
  • + 3
 no kidding. It's been done where it actually makes sense: Trials bikes. Just like the trials moto bike shown (where speeds are very low and you never sit down). It makes zero sense on a DH bike, just like it would make zero sense on a MX bike.
  • + 2
 @ThomDawson: but why does it have to be saddle-shaped? Years of familiarity? They don't need the sit-bones area, but do need to feel where the saddle is relative to what the bike is doing.
  • + 4
 @twozerosix: I guess it doesn’t necessarily but it works well. Sometimes the best solution is a simple solution. There have been and still are DH specific designs but generally racers seem to just use whatever feels comfy and familiar because it works. They may also need to sit down at some point even if they’re not planning on it.
  • + 3
 @twozerosix: actually DH racers sit down all the time. Resting is an important aspect of racing.
  • + 17
 @Kainerm: I’ve got the resting bit dialled.
  • + 3
 This had been tried and failed. A couple of decades ago someone produced a BMX with no saddle. Lopes rodes it. Said it was hard control. Also, in the DH realm, Tioga released a very long narrow saddle just for DH bikes. It disappeared.
  • + 0
 @Kainerm: all the time, like in the start hut before the race actually starts.
Not saying they don't need a saddle, but maybe one that isn't the same shape, because the use model is different.
(I've done exactly one DH race in my life)
  • + 1
 @twozerosix: you probably don't realize how much you use your seat to steer.
  • + 1
 @inter71: I get it, I get it, I get it. All I'm wondering is, if the seat's purpose in a DH race isn't to sit on, what other shape would be better for steering?
  • + 26
 What if:

Bmx'er's got in to the sport sooner?

Mountain bikes started out with geometry suited to the riding, rathe than the road?

Prices went down?

the industry actually adhered to standards, instead of adopting the wordpress model eternal upgrading?

The industry admitted to a huge marketing bias, fired most of the marketing departments and quite preying on the naive?
  • + 17
 Downhill bike with no saddle... I assume that means you get rid of the bare seatpost too. Otherwise...ouch?
  • + 9
 nah just run the grease all the way up the post, rather than just the inserted portion
  • + 5
 @twozerosix: at some junctures both portions could be the "inserted portion".
  • + 1
 Ok, I need to wash my eyes now after reading and thinking graphically about this.
  • + 12
 I don't feel like pressfit BB's creak much more than threaded BB's as long as they're quality components installed properly.
The problem for me is user serviceability (and this is coming from a bike shop wrench with a full spread of tools at his disposal)

I think a simple threaded interface is 100% better than having to use expensive presses and bearing pullers to service a wear item like a bottom bracket. The alternative to these expensive tools is wailing on your 3000$ frame with a hammer.
  • + 8
 That's my primary complaint about pressfit bbs. I do most of my own bike maintenance, and I loathe the idea of taking my bike to a shop for something as mundane as a bb replacement. As a home wrench, the idea of buying expensive tools for my occasional use is cost prohibitive and there is no way I would want to go the hammer route (hello voided warranty!!).
  • + 1
 One of the reasons mfgr's went to press-fit was many ham fisted mechanics messing up their threads and ruining the frame.
  • + 12
 What if pinkbike didn't sell data mining efforts disguised as 'polls' to advertisers?
  • + 8
 Just make sure you offer the most "entertaining" responses to every poll PB posts...
  • + 8
 - Press-fit creaking isn't the only annoying thing about them: you need more complex tooling/methods to actually get the BB in and out
- I would be tempted by a light gearbox, but if that's at the expense of durability, there'd be no point. I'd want to try one out too , bearing in mind a lot of people reckon gearboxes and hub gears can feel "draggy"
- The pedals thing will probably always be personal preference. I like flats and my iffy knee probably does too
- What does automatic shifting actually bring, in terms of benefits, for 90% of riders. Niche applications, but I can't understand why anyone would ever expect it to be mainstream
- Carbon still has the problem that you can't verify its integrity (voids, delamination, dry fibres, etc) without ultrasound scanning your bike after every crash, knock, etc so it's just not a very end-user-friendly material. Getting one season out a £3,000 wheelset still doesn't sound too good, either
- I'm 6'2" and have size 13 feet, so the idea of anything being designed to fit me "just right", out of the box, is an entirely foreign concept. Knob-twiddling isn't the most fun thing to do on a bike, though, so I'd take the 95%
- This is a silly idea; anything that limits a rider's options is a step back, isn't it? Knacker a fork, or wear something out, then have to send the entire bike off, or buy a new one? Not for me, thanks
  • + 8
 Why would you willing choose a BB requiring specialty tools and precision to install and remove over one that can be swapped out in 10 minutes by any monkey with a $15 wrench??
  • + 2
 2 specialty tools mind you... an extraction tool AND an insertion tool.
  • + 8
 What if I had been born fifty years before you
In a house on the street
Where you lived
Maybe I'd be outside as you passed on your bike. Would I know?
  • + 10
 what if the pinkbike polls were only for marketing research .
  • + 9
 What if your aunt had a penis she d be your uncle
  • + 2
 Thats funny. What if people on pink bike actually had a sense of humor.
  • + 4
 That Y22 was the first mountain bike I ever had.....purchased in Bloomington, Illinois in 1997......I thought it was so damn cool :-). Later moved to Boise Idaho and found out the true beauty of the Y design and the fact that the rear suspension was fully active while seated but totally locked out when standing.......genius!
  • + 4
 If carbon and aluminium performed and costed the same, the choice for frame material would be guided by environmental impact and worker conditions. PB missed that one in the list of possible answers.
  • + 7
 *Optimum Compaction Low Void
  • + 3
 What if manufacturers actually priced carbon frames based on their production costs? ie: less than welding up a frame with the use of pre-preg cloth.Would you
Buy the carbon frame, its cheaper!
Stick with AL, its more durable
Undecided.
  • + 3
 'Boi, are you outta yo mind'
You have to pay the people who design and market it let alone make it, ship it and other boring admin.
Carbon is expensive due to the R&D, but I like your thinking.
  • + 1
 @greglikesspecialized: Not out of my mind. The same R&D, admin, etc costs go into AL frames too. Yet, somehow they cost less?
  • + 1
 @Poulsbojohnny: Nope, far less carbon means its more, the man factoring costs are more due to labour and so much more R&D goes into it as there are far more variables to change. Watch a vid on carbon manufacturing then look at alloy. Also you have to pay more to train people to lay up carbon than learn to weld.
  • + 5
 If pinkbike posted polls with inane questions, would you bother responding?
-yes
-no
-this is as inane as the original polls
  • + 2
 What if press-fit bottom brackets never creaked?

I wouldn't know, because I don't use them. They are poor solution to a problem that didn't really exist.

What if gearbox drivetrains were almost the same weight as derailleur drivetrains?

IF they were guaranteed durable as a regular rear mech set up sure.

Lightweight tires?

Really, you have to ask this? less rotational weight...

Pedals?

There is NO way freestyle competitors would develop clipped pedals. That's just silly. C'mon.

Automatic rear mech?

Preselecting won't cover all situations, so what happens those times you cannot plan for? No thanks...

Carbon rims?

Mmmm.. make it TWO seasons, and maybe. I'd rather be able to buy OUTLAWS again at a reasonable price... have no idea what made their prices go up...

Carbon Frame?

They'll never be the same price. Too much marketing hype over the years on carbon for them to redact any of it. Nice thought though.

Suspension?

My suspension already performs at 95% Where are you coming up with this stuff???

No seats?

Shirley, you can't be serious....

Cockpit components?

Again? really? Limiting my choice as a consumer is only going to create unappy, reluctant customers. The auto industry already does this...
------------------------------

Overall, less marketing mumbo jumbo, and more desire to actually create a useful, durable product at a decent price. MOST major companies fail at this, miserably.
  • + 2
 Gearboxes are sure more durable. The problem is the drag and the price
  • + 3
 ...and don't call me Shirley!
  • + 2
 The aluminum vs carbon debate needs drive another looking into aluminum frame construction. Specialized is doing it with the Chisel and it's Smart Weld technology, but seriously, we had 4lbs aluminum frames just 5 years ago, but suddenly they've all disappeared: replaced by heavy steel frames or expensive carbon ones.
  • + 1
 Still some really great aluminum frames available. Check out Knolly for example. Their aluminum bikes perform better than most companies carbon offerings IMHO.
  • + 4
 @Skooks: Mmmm nope. I'm talking about aluminum bikes that are as light if not lighter than their carbon versions. Using Knolly as an example is silly, as they don't do anything special with their frames. Their aluminum bikes are significantly heavier than their carbon versions. Liteville on the other hand, produces very lightweight frames from alloy and hasn't gone carbon largely for that reason.
  • + 1
 @Skooks: Not just that, but having ridden quite a few Knolly I'd best their ride dynamics as "meh".
  • + 3
 What if (insert leading question)?
• obvious answer
• throw-away counter answer
• undecided

“Overwhelmingly, the bike market chooses (obvious answer from leading question).” - Sold Data
  • + 2
 What if we started buying a new bike every five years because they last longer. I notice that allot of things in the industry just aren't designed with longevity in mind. Better to make a bike that needs service regularly and the occasional Replacement part. Some big dudes are hard on carbon frames with the press fit BB Trek does a warranty for those dudes, They even down cycle the old frame into new park benches etc.. Worth the cost I feel but if we held onto them a bit longer I feel like the prices would come down. Surprised no one brought up the I Phone Those things are garbage they are designed to go defunct plus they are manufactured under practically forced labor conditions. They have suicide nets surrounding the building! Yet people are still lining up and paying a premium for them.
  • + 2
 I think there's a press fit option that's never really talked about. How about we do press fit properly!

Bearing's aren't meant to be pressed into carbon, or any soft material. Manufacturers need to bond in a metallic insert into the bottom bracket area to press the bearings into then you can have all the advantages of pf with no creaking.

Same goes for headset bearings, exactly the same issue but arguably worse as you don't have the option of buying things like hope's pf bottom bracket to solve the issue.

Bearings pressed into carbon last a matter of years before ovalising the bore and scrapping off the frame, but maybe this is the manufacturers plan?
  • + 1
 I've got carbon rims, a carbon frame, and a press-fit BB. No creaking from the BB, and the rims have been holding up fine. Just buy the right products that will hold up to the amount of abuse you put on bikes and you'll be fine.
  • + 1
 Haters gonna hate.
  • + 1
 "The pathetic debut of carbon fiber as a frame material fell upon the shoulders of bicycle industry designers and manufacturers, who were locked into the vision that a bicycle frame was nine sticks of pipe, joined together with molten metal and could not create outside of that box"

We're definitely still in that era now...
  • + 1
 The question about aluminum (Alu) bike vs carbon. That was pretty pointless. For the current price difference ($800 - $2000 depending on company) the carbon had better be pretty amazing to make me look at it. If alu and carbon were EQUAL why would carbon frames even exist. Looking at a new bike for next spring. Been on my current Alu rig for 9 years (yeah it gets ridden, like I stole it). Alu on the whole has only gotten better in that time. Carbon has 'caught up", and in some aspects may be "better" than Alu (quieter, lighter, stiffer) Lifespan? The clincher, I can take my old frame (and every component on it, Alu all the way) and drop it off at a recyclers. That carbon frame will end up in a landfill at end of life. Spent a week riding a carbon bike with a PF BB (Rocky Slayer). Very impressed, now I would ride a bike with a PF BB (put in a HOPE unit rt away), but I still lean toward Alu. The gains in material choice are less than the improvements in technology hung on the frame.
  • + 1
 Most of these are about price for me. Don’t care if gearbox weighs the same, they’re retarded expensive. Tires I go for performance, don’t really care about weight too much. Carbon frame vs al? Still torn. Good polls though!
  • + 1
 What if pf bb... : threaded bb. easier to work with.

What if gearbox... : the main problem with gearbox it's drag, not weight. Drag free derailleur over a light and slow gearbox any day.

What if light tyres...: durable light tyres sound good, but sidewall support and grip are more important. So heavy tyres for me
  • + 1
 Blah Blah Blah...Aluminium, Carbon, front suspension, v-brakes, front / rear specific tires, disc brakes, dual suspension, 29ers, dropper posts, through axles, 27.5 / 650b, 1'1/8 steerers, 1' 1/2 steerers, intergrated headsets, pressfit bb's, clutch rear mechs, gearboxs.....bla bla bla. in the end your gonna put that bike saddle between your cheeks and love it. not by force, but by choice. and as that saddle slides into your nether region your going to say, OMG this IS good!!!
  • + 4
 Price price price price. You act like we are all sponsored or independently wealthy.
  • + 1
 My oldest bike is a Fat Chance from 1983. It's 25lbs of steel, with a big wide alloy bullmoose bar, and some old Campagnolo mtb components that work better than we all gave them credit for at the time. Everything can be taken apart, cleaned, and regreased in seconds, even the derailleur pivots pop apart with snap rings and a yank, which is a fun way to enjoy the dark snowy season. 25 years ahead of its time, it has a pressed-in BB with huge oversized bearings, which have never creaked because they actually press in properly, lock in place, and last a decade at a time. All the other standards this frame adheres to are hilariously undersized compared to anything modern. I've probably spent fifty thousand dollars over the years on more technologically sophisticated bikes, and they're all amazing, but bombing around town and local trails on this old rusty beaster is still the most fun I've ever had on two wheels. And it's the most reliable. Crazy.
  • + 1
 This may get lost in the comments but...the last question is bait and switch. The first option mentions motorcycles having only interchangeable cockpits and nothing else but the next answer only gives parts availability 4-5 years? Trick question. Motorcycle parts have availability of TWO DECADES so lets get MTBs there and I would be fine with proprietary shit anything less is jerking customers around.

You can buy parts for 1997 motorcycles and dirtbikes all day long...
  • + 1
 I do remember an automatic rear mech back in the day. It worked on the same principle as self energising brakes. The harder you pedalled an put more pull on the mech, it would move up the diagonal cam towards the larger cogs It was shit But I do see, in the not so distant future an electronic system that gauges power, tilt an speed an GPS to adjust gears suss tune an dropper position
  • + 1
 The question regarding press-fit VS. threaded BB was asked fairly IMHO. Press-fit BB frames have weight and stiffness advantages over their threaded counter part. If all things being equal, including weight, stiffness, longevity, lack of creek, and serviceability... Etc... Then I still pick threaded BB. HOWEVER, if all above still being equal except press-fit frames are stiffer and lighter... Then I would pick press-fit BB.
  • + 1
 I don't think I would ride a bik without external adjustments and having to ride stock components. As it sits the company I have access to deals with only really use one company and I'm not a fan of that company so I would frame up build it.
  • + 1
 The non -interchangeability of bike parts would have to have some real reason, and so far I have never seen one. From personal experience (such as specialized brain shocks) proprietary parts are never properly supported, are poorly tested prior to market and have no real performance advantage. It's fine for a media hack to ride one for a short while and say "it's amazing", but a totally different experience to own one of these "amazing" shocks that crap out in a couple of months, and be forced to go and buy a mainstream part to replace it. Then you find out all of these "amazing" products crap the bed (ex Trek's shocks).

I don't take parts bike to bike, as I find all parts have a definite life cycle in BC conditions. If I am breaking something, I find that everyone else is too. Here in BC all of the sram brakes went south, the LBS was replacing with shimano under warranty; that would be great if you couldn't interchange your brakes.
  • + 2
 All I know is I lusted after the Trek "Y" bike when I they were around, specifically the "Y-5-0" version, and that Specialized frame still looks cool..but those questions are pure nonsense!
  • + 1
 Those of you who love saddles so much clearly have not experienced riding DJ or trials bikes. If you could turn a DJ frame into a full suspension frame, it would have made a world of a difference in terms of corner stability and balance. KILL THE DAMN SEATPOST Dead Horse
  • + 1
 Are people really still wary of riding carbon parts?

I thought by now the only holdback was price. Surprised to see people in the poll saying they’d go alu at the same price.
  • + 0
 What if ti was easy available and easy to manufacture as alloy but with all the strength and weight of carbon. So people would stop bitching as said material doesn't match there views/use/wallet /preferance..... And we wouldn't have to argue /listen to closed minded idiots who can't grasp that there point of view/experience isn't the only valid one.
F#@k that il wish for world peace and a billion pounds its more likely
  • - 1
 Carbon sucks
  • + 1
 **What if an aluminum and a carbon frame had the same performance, strength, weight, and price?**

What a f*cking stupid question. If these materials were identical, there'd be no need to choose between them would there?
  • + 0
 Uhh why are these the most retarded poll ever? “What if a you could have a magic bike that only weighed 5 pounds and never broke?” -Yes please it’s obviously superior - No thanks I’d rather ride my clunky 35 pound dated DH that might break at some point -Undecided
  • + 3
 I like how they tried to compare a trials moto with no saddle to a DH bike.
  • + 1
 As an industry tech at a shop i would say cost of bikes is high for what your getting also the mechanics are not payed well or respected for what they do
  • + 0
 Screw automatic transmissions. It's the same as with the V8s . Automatic transmissions are for useless asshats. Learn to use your gearstick and to enjoy the driving experience.
  • + 1
 OCLV was the first commercial carbon bike???? Hmmm, I seem to remember the Scott Endorphin as one or two years ahead of Treks first offerings.
  • + 1
 Everyone please keep buying more of the latest and greatest bike stuff so that I can buy it lightly used for a fraction of the price.
  • + 2
 second hand stuffs still a god option if you cant get a new rig or demo bikes
  • + 0
 No Warranty though.
  • + 1
 **redacted**
  • + 2
 What if, none of this shit was real and you actually swallowed the red pill
  • + 1
 What is real?
  • + 2
 What if Pinkbike did more articles on riding technique and skills, and less on trying to sell us crap?
  • + 2
 There's already creak free press fit BB's. All you need is a frame built with good tolerance
  • + 3
 WHAT IF COMPANIES MADE RELIABLE WELL BUILT PARTS?!?!?!?!
  • + 6
 There is Hope for us all.
  • + 1
 Then business would dry up and they would close their doors
  • + 2
 @doe222: but would they? for example novatech (novacrap) make shit hubs we warranty so many i cant image they make anything. but what about chris king? how do they make money selling you hubs that last 20 years?! well they do you can charge more in the 1st place if they arnt gunna break
  • + 1
 @ryan83: I see what you did there Wink
  • + 1
 @nojzilla: I did too but my hope hub freebody cracked recently. Still think they make great stuff
  • + 1
 @freeridejerk888: Just contact Hope, they probably want you to send it to them and you will get a new body for free.
That's my experience.
  • - 2
 "What if only the cockpit components of a mountain bike were interchangeable, but service and spare parts were readily accessible?" if they were the components on a hope hb160 I'd love that (aside from that cassette, it wears out in under 20 hours), but if the components weren't made in europe or the u.s. I wouldn't touch it.
  • + 1
 Yeah. I was like "never!". Then I looked at the hope and changed to undecided. But only if it's that bike basically - you know as long as Hope exist they will support that bike, he'll even if they no longer stock the hubs etc they could just run you off a new one from CNC. And you know that is what they would do.
  • + 1
 I owned one of those Specialized Ultimates, once upon a time, still kick myself for selling it.
  • + 1
 I guess we'll know who put some money into this post when we see whos got a seatless DH bike in testing this winter.
  • + 1
 What if brakes would run on water instead of polluting liquids?

Oh, wait...
  • - 1
 "What if only the cockpit components of a mountain bike were interchangeable, but service and spare parts were readily accessible?"

You mean weren't interchangeable, correct?
  • + 1
 what if ... there wasnt over 9000 different bike standards and ppl just rode their bike instead of feeding into the industry
  • + 2
 This has to be the dumbest article poll I’ve seen on Pb in. While
  • + 2
 What if any of these questions were relevant?
  • + 1
 What if all new parts were built to last and/or be upgraded into in infinity or until destroyed?
  • + 1
 When they start making beer cans out of carbon, I'll start riding a carbon bike!
  • + 1
 Bike prices are going up in Canada because a certain high ranking US government official is killing our trade agreements!
  • + 2
 This is tailor-written for the comments section.
  • + 2
 What if your bike had 2 different wheel sizes
  • + 1
 Seems like more people than i thought are ready for gearbox bikes!!
nice !! don't give up #CavalerieBikes !
  • + 1
 I saw someone walk out of Wal-Mart today with a bike similar in geometry and shape to that Trek.
  • + 2
 I think it would be bichin to ride a unicorn over a rainbow
  • + 1
 What if you could still ride the bicycle, even though the technology and standards have evolved?
  • + 2
 Amen brother!
  • + 1
 If your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle
  • + 1
 What is that cool looking old derailleur on the Specialized at the top?
  • + 1
 what if private parts were fake or real?
  • + 1
 What if there was bikes made in the USA again ???
  • + 1
 What if the bike industry actually listened to consumers?
  • + 1
 The world must be coming to an end if that happens.
  • + 1
 What if pink bike actually called out junk products as junk
  • + 1
 Feels like they're greasing the skids for Fox's new electronic suspension.
  • + 1
 You can add Liteville to your special boutique bike list @wakidesigns
  • + 0
 I'll switch to carbon hoops when their performance and weight saving far exceed Alloy.
And they're marginally more $
  • + 1
 Call it as it is. Price tags!
  • + 0
 What are those things on the pedals of the 92 spesh? Clips you say? Hmmm...
  • + 1
 What if you owned an M16c.....
  • + 1
 "What if lightweight tires were immune to cuts?" ... Really? WELL DUH!!
  • + 1
 Nitro shox! 8th question
  • + 0
 What if = What Should We Sell
  • + 0
 I hope that when we die we get to go to heaven via unicorns and rainbows
  • + 0
 "Ocean-Fill" Frown i won't ever ride carbon.
  • + 0
 oh, Trek Y, the dentist's bike from 1990
  • + 1
 Tell that to my friend in the 90s who collected cans for two summers to buy one of these bikes and had rotten teeth.
  • + 2
 @properp: he could've lived in a college town like I did and get paid by the dental school so the students could clean your tarter($50) and rid the cavities($100)..then he could've had nice teeth and a bike! Smile
  • + 0
 @properp: they got cheaper over the years, but no way he could buy one collecting cans when they were first released. I only got to see two in my area, owned by a rich ass guy and his wife
  • + 1
 @GlassGuy: wish that was the case with my college town. Great point though. Teeth more important than bike, car, house, anything. Take it from me I lost a few life has been a challenge without a good smile. Still I have managed to eek out a living, but I wish I could just work at a bike shop and build custom wheels for people,
  • + 0
 OPTIMUM COMPACTION Low Void...
  • + 1
 WHAT IF!!!
  • + 1
 See what you starts?
  • + 1
 What, no eBike poll??!

Post a Comment



You must login to Pinkbike.
Don't have an account? Sign up

Join Pinkbike  Login
Copyright © 2000 - 2019. Pinkbike.com. All rights reserved.
dv65 0.226228
Mobile Version of Website