Imagine this: The year is 202X and the world is a very different place. Mountain biking is still a thing, but there are only two ways to the top of the trail: you're either taking a shuttle or an eMTB - in this hypothetical future there's no way to pedal a non-motorized bike to the top.
So where does that leave you? Well, you have two options:
First, you can shuttle. Hop in the back of the truck and take the ride. Sure, it may involve some logistics, dropping a car at the bottom, an odd rider sitting out, or a dedicated driver, but it'll get you to the top and you won't let your moral obligation to shun the eMTB, which you hold steadfast to from years ago, slip. The other option is to take the eMTB up. It's quick...nearly as quick as the shuttle, and it doesn't take all that much effort, but the bike is a little more cumbersome for the descent. Then again, you don't have to get in the car and hassle with having other people involved in your ride.
Which one are you going to choose? It's either one or the other...or you just don't ride anymore.
Are you going to use a motor, or, a...motor to earn your turns?
Done plenty of emtb rides, and I love those too, but they are just longer rides compressed into the same amount of time.
Nothing beats the buzz of an uplift day.
This is like saying 'I rent an amazing $15k bike once a year and it's really special. I ride a Walmart bike the rest of the year instead of my $10k bike because it'd take away from the special rental'
Given the choice, getting the eBike and having 95% of the fun of a shuttle whenever you want is an easy choice is it not?
But the ebike handles worse. That's just a fact.
Although for the record: if any companies out there (e or otherwise) want to pay me to say nice things about them in the pinkbike comments, I'm game. Have your people call my people.
I'm not sure that argument is going to win many people over.
Definitely saw they had one planned for Rheola next month.
My mate said Black Mountains has open truck uplift - that might be a safer bet.
Sticking to Afan for now until it all quietens down.
I have chosen shuttle because I prefer a lighter bike down the hill. Spending some time in the gym one could ride emtb like normal bike for sure, but for an average Joey it is easier to pop and hop on a 10kg lighter bike. But if you ride machine built trails and fast straight lines, emtb is not much worse.
Ebikes handle like shite, so I choose shuttling because on the way down I’d rather peddle a bike that doesn’t ride like it has a bag of rocks tied to the frame.
Of course this Pinkbike scenario is not close to realistic, I nearly always ride my bike uphill, rarely shuttle, so kind of a straw man post.
My wife has a Pivot Shuttle ebike, essentially a Mach 5.5 with a motor and battery. It’s a great bike and a really good ebike, but I have nonneed to ride it; she rides it to stay up with me
You can tell when Pinkbike is getting bored, silly posts to get peoples riled up. Silliness.
"The obvious answer is of course the power equation. Using an external energy source vs using your body. But I don't want to define what MTB is. The line indeed gets blurry. A person taking the lift to the top of a bike park and going downhill is essentially using an eMTB if we look at it from an energy balance perspective. Is that not MTB? Hard to say."
Wonder if they were inspired by it. I want to believe!
So I am just saying, ebike accidentally is a goof tool for good riders, bacause it is just a tool. But it was not it's purpose. Companies created ebikes so they can sell a shit load of them to every Joey who can pedal on flat.
This is quite funny because I have stated it about three times in this thread, but you really cannot talk to someone who does not hate abikes anymore and want me to be a "tribal" ebike hater.
I am sorry, I do not hate ebikes, I literally give a sh*t. Tried them, did not like them going down, and that's it.
What pissed me off is this stupid question asked. A very abstract question which is not a question really. Just a piece of poor marketing. Like "admin that ebikes are better than shuttle". Well, if ebikes rode like bikes, I would happili admit that. Espiecially I am doing shuttle rides like twice a year really.
Stop trying to use the 'fitness' excuse to berate eBike riders, it's as ignorant and narrow-minded as all the "eBikes are scooters" people and the "earn a climb to ride a trail" people. Not everyone who rides bikes do it because they are athletes. Not everyone who rides bikes is required to "suffer".
The happiest people who ride bikes are the people who genuinely enjoy riding bikes, not the miserable ones who constantly waste time hating on things other people enjoy. Being an owner of both regular and eMTB bikes, per actual experience (not keyboard anger) I can truly say that eMTB riders have more fun on the uphill and the downhill... and that's the real part you hate the most.
Actually, you didn't; the bike carried you over.
On your 41, use an electric on your wife too and then pretend you're a $ex G.O.D. #upliftspiritoftheday #yeeeaaahbuuooy
By now, I thought everyone already understood who electrics users are. They are the pretenders...yees, PRETENDERS!, they like the ideea of mtb-ing but they don't want to put the effort in. I am not saying you don't consume callories or you can't get tired on an electric, as you can and will, of course. What I am saying is that electrics are mostly sought after and used by pretenders and wannabes.
Beside being a shame to the spirit of mtb-ing and a actually an offense to the mountain itself, the thing that bothers me the most is the snug attitude..like "yeah big buuuoy, we're rideeers"; actually, you're not, not even close. That is not mtb-ing and that's not a bike. It has propulsion, it has a motor, it's a pedally moped for off-road. Mtb-ing is something totally different and exactly because you can't tell the difference between mtb-ing and electrics riding, you'll never trully understand what it is and why mtb-ing is so special. Of course, you and all the others like you.
The good thing was, untill now, there was not a way for all of you to get on a mountain. Now, unfortunatelly, there is..and that's a damn shame. #idiocracy as it happens ppl, as it happens.
That said, I’m not sure I’d feel so proud of a 14k day on an ebike, at least no more than riding 14k using lift assist.
I’m fifteen years older than you and I routinely climb 5-10k without assistance. Maybe you have a disability that limits your ridding, maybe you don’t. I’d certainly recommend increasing your fitness if you can’t ride without assistance, just saying ...
And then slower tech jank was just ridiculous, hefting that pig over and around shit was not fun at all.
It just doesn't make sense for me right now... I want to be able to ride faster and have more fun than an ebike will let me.
The only instance where it was comparable to my current ride was straight fall line stuff where it's weight would let me just let it go and plow.. but my current bike seemed to ride just as well in those situations anyway. And then I had to turn... and it lost me again.
I'm 43 right now... maybe in another 10 or 15 years if I don't keep my fitness up and/or they get a lot lighter? I'm also currently into Enduro racing (about 8 a year... well, not this year, haha), so maybe after I stop doing that?
Not totally against them, they're great if old age has limited your speed and you can't ride as hard or fast as you used to or if you never got to that level in the first place so it doesn't feel like you're missing anything. Or of course to help you keep having fun even though you have some kind of nagging or chronic injury... I'm sure I'll be there at some point!
I'd only wish to be that awesome and witty.
Anyway, islandforlife says is much smarter than I'd ever could; with more calmness and arguments. I get too hot headed on the subject, unfortunatelly..
The fact of the matter is, you and I and 99.99% of everyone here is not a pro and we don't get paid to be seen riding on bikes for posers and mtb wanbabes.
Cheers.
Meanwhile you're up on your soapbox literally doing the thing you're calling out; posing. Grow up. Let people enjoy themselves. It doesnt change your life.
All of the bike industry is jumping on the e-bike train. It's more margin, more spare parts, more people to sell to. Just companies seeing dollar signs
Just because it isn't your case, does not mean it is not majority's case. Stop being a child, this is beyond the individuals. The fact of the matter is, just because you have 30 years of mtb behind you and your ride bc e-buddy has the same, does not mean that for every you, there are not another 1000 wannabes/pretenders, riding trails/mountains they shouldn't!(because, with out the electric help, they would have never been able to venture/ride there..., you know, #pretenders)
In the center of my country, there is a big town, inches away from the mountains. The biggest bike store in that town, this season has sold medium-high quality full-sups on par with electrics full-susp. Some of my riding buddies in that town got for themselves electrics because the store's plan is to populate the town/riding areas around with electrics so, for that, they give huge discounts, especially(mostly) to local riders.
What I wanted to say is that the average age is mid-30s..in no way shape of form being 50+.
Well, like I have said, for every true mtb rider on an electric, there are "1000" wannabes that walk 30% of the downs..usually, the real mtb parts of the trail. Are you, mr. Chuckolicious, a rider or a "walker"?
I'm not an ebike rider by any means, but jesus did you get molested by an ebike as a child or something? This level of hate isn't normal.
Like I say I'm not against ebikes. I would totally have one and probably will when the prices and weights come down in 5-10 years.
Trust me I know we are not playing the same game.
I have nothing against puritans like you trying to atone their sins and "earn" their fun, but please leave the normal people out of your sad little cult.
I knew the US is a country founded by religious fanatics. Is Canada just as bad? You always have to feel you "work" for everything to feel good about yourself? Sigh.
Then change the orthopedic with a better one; mine told me to muscle up and take the pressure off so what the #youknow are you talking about. That's such a lame excuse. My G.O.D., all of you americans are like that?, reading the comments, I'm inclined to think so.
www.bicycling.com/culture/a32346213/leo-rodgers-amputee-cyclist
Comparing the e-bikes and motorbikes is so disingenuous, it's just a cheap way to side step the issue.
Are they comparable in weight? Are they comparable in speed?
One can confuse the general public by calling them both "motorized" (which is technically correct),
but nobody on this forum is fooled by this.
Should e-bikes be prohibited on some of the two-way trails due to safety reasons?
Maybe, one can at least make an honest argument for it.
But what is the argument for banning them on a one-way trails?
If it's a climbing trail, the unassisted bike going at 4mph will be passed by an e-bike going at a neck-breaking speed of (gasp) 7mph. Is it a safety issue?
If it's a downhill trail, we all know the speed is limited by the skill of the rider and not the bike, assisted or not.
The speed difference is of significance on flattish trails of low technical difficulty.
Not many MTB trails fit that description. I don't remember last time I rode one.
Trail wear?
That extra 15-20lb of weight is suddenly a critical consideration?
So a fit and strong 200lb guy shredding on a 30lb unassisted bike causes smaller trail wear than a not-quite-as-fit 140lb woman on a 50lb ebike going the same speed? No. But the guy just "deserves" it more?
Will people on ebikes ride longer distance than on regular bikes? Yes, most likely! Either go further into the woods or do more laps. Is is a bad thing? Every MTB organization proclaim its principal goal is "popularizing and promoting MTB use". E-bikes is the largest opportunity to do this.
The MTB trails are not an inherently scarce resource, we can build 10x more if there is support for it. And the more people do MTB, assisted or not, the wider popular support for expanding the trail network.
I just have not seen an argument that did not in the end boil down to "they don't have to work as hard as I do for the same thing therefore they don't deserve it and should not be allowed to".
Thus I am only half joking when referring to the puritan origins of USofA culture.
Yes, it might be cleaner to ride 20ebikes up to the trailhead than it is to drive a 20 person van up with all the bikes.. But for many, shuttle riding is only a small portion of total riding.
So the rest of the time, theyre using their batteries to ride stuff they used to ride unaided. And that's a negative for the environment.. That's certainly what I see a lot of in the uk
In my opinion, the environmental price of riding an ebike should only be considered if :
a) you take shuttles so much that ebike shuttling is cleaner..this is changeable of course, because shuttle vehicles will no doubt become cleaner as time goes on, and you'll likely be buying new ebikes as tech moves on too.
or b) you can't manage the pedaling or walking up hills and it will never be achievable for you, so an ebike is necessary for everyday riding
As for the rest of your comment, I don't disagree with you on some points (one way trails) and do on others that you've tried to make too simplistic based off my own experiences. Nuance and thought needs to be applied when determining access for bicycles with motors, especially as the ability of the batteries to provide power the riders are incapable of producing on their own will rapidly increase, and thus the ability to ride with the max level of assist for longer and longer times. If you don't think this will increase conflict on some very crowded trails (CO front range where I ride) you are burying your head in the sand.
My problem is with the entire notion that folks need to justify their recreation. People may bike for different reasons (fun, self-punishment, nature communion, etc) but they sure do not feel they need to justify it. Unless they think they will be ones setting the standards.
So you think eMTB is pushing it? How about that full suspension bike of yours? Can you justify using it instead of a hardtail? One can say that you have no business to ride the full suspension on the trails you can ride on a hardtail. Or at least somebody can. If you cannot, you just need to train harder and develop your skills. No full suspension for you. You already ride hardtail? Well, can you justify that suspension fork of yours? You surely don't "need" it. You can prove to yourself that virtually everything can be ridden on a bike with no suspension by consulting the youtube.com.
Can you justify biking at all? It's a very unnatural mode of locomotion. And it's surely quite dangerous as compared to walking.
Do you see what I mean?
@nordland071285: this comment is addressed to you as well. ALL bikes are used "unnecessarily". Both unassisted bikes and eMTB. So my response to "e-bikes are mostly used unnecessarily" is "so what?"
The only justification worth talking about is the marginal public safety. That is, does eMTB is significantly more hazardous than the unassisted biking?
I don't have eMTB. Yet. But I know many people who would go riding (instead of staying home) if they had one, So I am happy to see folks on e-bikes riding along.
Please defend the use of assistance for able body folks, it’s beneath you.
Don't see how it can't be fun riding a powered mountain bike flying up a hill/mountain. However, I think having a bunch of fully capable riders flying up shared trails with other trail users (other bikers, hikers and horses) in no way is beneficial to the sport/image.
I always wonder, would ebikers and other feel it was fine if I put a small gas powered motor on a mountain bike that helped with my pedaling uphill? I really think most would say absolutely not, but for some reason because the motor is electric, people seem to accept having people use motors just because they are quiet.
How about I just ride my bike?
Self shuttle with eMTB: $12,000 + eSHAME
I may change my tune as age and injuries keep stacking up, but in the meantime I'm happy to leave the advances in accessibility technology to those who need it.
Not every dentist rides S WORKS brah...
Mammoth and Snow Summit lift tickets are about $45 for the day. I also see people taking eBikes on the lift, only once seen an eBike pedal up Summit (I also skip that lift mostly and pedal up).
www.strava.com/activities/2049290340 (shuttle)
www.strava.com/activities/2360397038 (non shuttle)
Wait, I thought the Toyota Tacoma was the only vehicle capable of this? What if you have to drive over some pebbles?
f*ck it, gotta buy a 4x4 Sprinter van.
Currently still the car I take out camping every weekend right now. THough I will be trading with my ex wife soon, her F150 for my car. But I don't shuttle, just ride solo.
1. Better for Environment
2. Less time stuffed in a car
3. More time on bike
4. Mores areas to access and lap
5. Even if it is assisted you are earning your turns with a pedal up
6. Don't need a truck and/or multi bike rack
7. Can go it alone
That said, it's not an excuse to add batteries to your bike when you don't need the help
Where I live, the majority of e bike riders I meet benefit 4 times a year from not having to use the shuttle on their infrequent bikepark trips. The rest of the time, theyre using battery power to ride trails they didn't need batteries for before.. And they had to buy that new bike in order to do that.
So overall imo its negative for the environment
I don't see your problem with doglords comment about the energy taken to make batteries.. It all has an effect on the environment doesn't it? And if those batteries are being used unnecessarily by most, then that's still less eco friendly than not using them.. whether they can be recycled 100% or not
Laptops/tablets/phone - sure, if you don't need these devices?
I need my phone so I keep it charged
Go and see for yourself all the idiots in summer holiday "equipment" on rental electrics and their serious nasty behavoir to all of those who use/are riding/hiking on those trails. It is already a well known problem.
8000+ is a more appropriate weekend ride. But I guess we don't have mountains in North America? (I live at 600', live next to a 10000' peak).
So i may continue to shun e-bikes... I'm proud of myself...
But we can bond over our love of Tundras. Mine is a 2005. I'm the only owner, only 120,000 miles. I thought I'd never need another truck. But now I want to tow a monstrous trailer around to sleep and shit in, so I want something bigger.
I am also moving to Baja. I don't think any electric cars can make that drive....
That and the local shuttle companies (here) put a lot of time, money and effort into maintaining the trails that they provide the runs for.
Question for PB poll overlords, do people who have ebike content filtered out see this poll?
* waiting at the bottom for an hour because there aren't enough shuttles
* getting your bike off the shuttle last, and getting stuck behind everyone and his mom at the start of the trail
* getting your bike destroyed by the metal pedals on the bike next to you
* paying $50. BTW I have no problem supporting the trail associations, and I do.
I get the social aspect of shuttling, but you can have that same social aspect e-biking up the road, especially if you're not gasping for breath. And that way everyone's naturally spread out on the trail.
Yeah, no.
Dirt bike or BMX it is then.
And can me and a couple of friend shuttle up in an electric car, making it the best option environmentally, or does the shuttle have to be gas-powered?
Both are pigs and ride crap. Merida can't make a bike ride decently even if the future of the company would depend on it.
Goes to show what I always "preached"; electrics users know exactly shite about riding if shites on wheels like that merida is considered a good "bike". Try riding good bikes for a change and then give an opinion.
since when intense makes current good bikes?, the last good bike from them must be 10-12 years old by now.
for four years! It was a beast and was awesome and handled everything
and more that I threw at it!! Kinda seems like maybe you haven't actually
ridden one which makes your opinion well just an opinion I guess....
I know what you are saying; I've played back and forth with angle-set, reach enlargement headsets(I'm still using one on my reactor), off-set bushings and custom links on my beloved well...gt sanction(I have a soft spot for the way that high(-ish) pivot works/-ed in conjunction with that floaty BB. I even sized up in order to have a modern geometry(read reach) feel but...the fact of the matter was, even though if felt bloddy unbreakable(with a 180 in the front and all the geometry changes), it was still old(-ish) design bike and I had to give up on it. Then again, my wagon wheels reactor barely feels any slower, in fact, it is 10-12 to 15-20 seconds on the same trails but, the feeling at the handle bars tells me another story. On some mellower trails, it actually feels faster.
Probably I'll try the Clash and the future freeride-ish bike from nukeproof(the one based on the dissent susp. design) but I do long for a high pivot, rearward axle-path type of bike burly enough to take any DH trail. Too bad no one wants to make interesting bikes, as for a couple of years, Horst has become "free for all".
Tracer...poser bike v1.1
Cheers.
You can climb SO MUCH faster, even on the flat undulating trails that motor is always pushing. It's a blast.
Down's aren't as much fun, it's a lot of bike to move around. But you actually have fun on ups, so it's a wash.
But the benefit is, you can ride 2-3x even more trail since the ups are draining you 2-3X less.
Also great to tow the kiddo's to the top of the trails.
Yes, I still hate when I get passed by an EMTB'r but I can see the point. More power to em!
3x more laps, check. 3x more trail maintenance needed? By some magical voodoo, apparently no.
I don’t hate E Bikes, I just wish with this influx of riders, there would be an influx of trail work volunteers helping to repair the damage to trails caused by all of us.
Is climbing not fun?
Also, my legs outlast the batteries. So I don't get 2-3x as much fun.
Needing an e-bike to ride the half hour up the gently sloping fire road at Fromme to 7th would just be sad.
Next Fromme climb try going from Braemer, and on Seymour up a climbing route like Good Sir Martin.
One big pedalling zig zag lap of Seymour is usually enough to call it a day, especially with the swarms of bikers and hikers.
Cypress however is a bit of a slog up and I usually partially shuttle. But then it's mega technical kill-you descents that I would definitely not want to be wrestling a portly e-bike on.
I'm sure there's big mountain legal places that assist bikes makes sense, but Vancouver's tiny ultra-technical and crowded mountains seem like an especially poor fit.
And you wouldn't buy and ebike because you worry some newbie minimalist bike, underbiked pimply faced wimpy opinionated Uni kid with a corse "feelings " ebike's not 'cool'. In really the povo packed , no car, crap geared trihard has no clue "but" gets to hang out with the losers that get bumped from shuttles . ,,,, OK
You can punch out way more DH run on a de restricted Ebike than shuttles if you can actually ride.
We’ll see how it goes.
Win win as my dad can use the ebike to ride w me on my normal climbs, and I can use it to self shuttle when it’s hot or I’m lazy. Hoping 50lbs isn’t a total kill joy.
And before someone else says it, everyone against ebikes is some Strava dork in spandex who hates the disabled and having fun.
I hate this sport. I hate that Pinkbike is jockeying to be first in line for the all expenses paid trip to New Zealand for the next Levo launch when Covid goes away.
BUT, if you have the fitness, after a while they get pretty dam dull. Sure its easy, but you end up riding smoother trails and jump lines all the time. Ever tried throwing an ebike down a dbl black tech line at speed? It sucks!
- Shuttling is shit for the environment and is lazy af.
- E-biking is fine just not my thing (kinda lazy tho)
I’ve opted out of e-bike content but this still shows up for me, that’s why I clicked on it and commented.
I have e-bikes filtered out, why am I seeing this?
I'm sticking to my guns though. A horse-sized duck will be incredibly low and most importantly, a single target
Takes away from the nobility of the sport.
Did you really dwell on my comment for 5 hrs between comments?
Now i am seeing a lot of different comments , going in the direction of the ebikes actually !!!!
This is good ,the difference is always hard to accept .same was for 29”... look today
29 ebikes !!!!
Ebikes for life !!!!
Keep your shuttles and eBikes, I'll pedal up.
The trouble with replacing your occasional shuttle with an e-Bike climb is that you have to ride an e-Bike.
When the weight / cost / handling penalty of e-Bikes shrinks enough then maybe...
For everyday e-bike riders, isn't every climb a solo shuttle? lol
I also pedal up.
I am sorry for all the people that think an easier ride up makes riding an anchor back down the mountain is worthwhile.
On fast, flatter sections where it's hard to pedal past the 19.9999mph governor, a pedal bike is faster. PNW doesn't have a ton of trails like that, so we're good. It's the absolute greatest, and I can't wait to see how rad my next one will be.
The eeb is more than just worthwhile: it's essential.
This is the future.
If a person looks as an ebike as a way to do less, I don't know what to say...we're out here doing way way way more with ours.