Don't Punch the Baby - Opinion
OhMyGod! Did he just punch that baby?
My daughter is stunned. If I’ve taught my kids one thing in life, it’s this—you never, ever punch babies.
Or play with Daddy’s chainsaw.
Or try to make the chickens fly by throwing them out the second-story window.
Or…
![banner]()
Well, I guess there are a lot of very obvious things that you have to repeatedly teach kids. None of them things you ever suspect you’d have to teach anyone. Not back in those halcyon, pre-child rearing days when you envision parenting as this grand, nurturing journey where you march hand in hand with your little angel towards enlightenment and self-realization. Ultimately, as a parent, I’ve spent a lot of time just trying to convince the kids to stop Krazy Gluing their body parts together. And, no, my children don’t eat paint chips. Thanks for asking though. But the baby-punching thing? I’ve never had to teach my kids that one. The hellions, mercifully, understood that one implicitly. So, you know, win for me on that score.
But this other kid at last Saturday’s soccer game? He’s struggling to grasp the finer points of the golden rule. He just walked up to his little brother (who is more of a toddler, really) and socked him one. His mom is rightfully mortified. How could her child do such a thing? Hadn’t she raised him on non-violent cartoons? Isn’t he in the advanced pre-school program? Didn’t she refrain from buying him that toy AR-15 for Christmas?
Sure. You can do all that, but if you learn one thing as a parent, it’s this: You have a lot less control over your progeny than you might imagine.Sometimes an older sibling just gets pissed, walks up and lays the pimp hand on his little brother. Shit happens. Or, as the parenting books solemnly intone; sometimes a child doesn’t understand what to do with his angry feelings and he acts out.
To be fair, it’s hard to know what to do with your anger sometimes. Even as adults we struggle with that challenge. And, yes, here’s the point where I start talking about e-bikes. Buckle up.
![Photo by Memekode]()
Well, What Did You Expect?
I could publish a recipe for scrambled eggs, or a haiku about snails or post up a picture of wildflowers abloom and you know what the top-ranked comment from Pinkbike readers would be? It’d be “f*ck e-bikes!” or if the commenter was feeling particularly loquacious, “f*ck your f*ckin’ e-bikes!” There’s a range, you see.
People hate themselves some e-bikes. At least a vocal chunk of our readers do. And many of them hate e-bikes so much that they can’t stop typing their rage out in screamy all-caps…even in response to articles that have nothing to do with e-bikes. People are angry. And they are lashing out. They are, in a sense, punching the baby. I’m not sure who the innocent baby is in this scenario, so the analogy isn’t exactly bullet proof, but you get where I’m going with this: We currently find ourselves in a very Hulk Smash E-Bikes! kind of moment.
You could argue, of course, that the Internet—in addition to being a brilliant conduit for porn and cat videos—is, above all else, a digital repository for anger. You might also say that Pinkbike’s forum has historically been a halfway house for a whole lot of very pissed off people. But this isn’t just a Pinkbike thing. Just about every other mountain biking site I visit these days is aflame with the same kind of e-bike anger. And in a few rare cases, that anger moves beyond the digital world.
![Wrecked by vernon felton]()
Haters Gonna Hate…
On July 23rd, Larry and Lori Garon parked their e-bikes in downtown Aspen. The couple has a home about 10 miles away; they wanted to pedal more and drive their car less, which is why they’d bought a couple of Trek e-bikes from a local bike shop, The Hub of Aspen, earlier in the season. Anyway, the couple is in town for an art fair and a bite to eat. When they returned to their parked and locked bikes, they found that someone had popped off the Power button from the head units of their computers.
“Obviously, it was a real drag because their bikes were almost immobilized,” says Tim Emling, the owner of the The Hub bike shop. “So the Garons came back to the shop and we were able to fix that. We sent them on their way and got some replacements ordered up for them.”
A couple days later, the same thing happened to three of the bike shop’s own e-bikes, which were parked just outside the store front. Emling takes it all in stride—no one is throwing rocks through his window, there is no mob of anti-e-bikers storming his bike shop with blazing torches, but still….
![tesla]()
We can put a finer point on this kind of legislation: The end game here is to open up more trails to e-mountain bikes. I think that’s fairly clear. And this does raise some thorny issues. We’ll get to that in a minute.
Emling has been selling plenty of “townie” style e-bikes. Even though he has received some interest from people wanting to rent e-mountain bikes, he’s chosen not to go that route.
“I didn’t want to be culpable for having renters riding those bikes where they aren’t allowed to,” says Emling. “Plus, if I am renting an electric full-suspension mountain bike to someone who doesn’t know what they are doing on a bike, then all of a sudden they can get themselves into a situation on the trail where they are in way over their heads. Or, if they are not conscious of how the bikes work and they don’t power them down on descents they could have a real safety issue with someone riding a trail much faster than they even intended to or are capable of. I get the resistance on the mountain bike side, at least within our community, but in terms of recreational around-town use, I don’t get the opposition.”
You mean jacking up another rider’s rig because you disagree with his choice of bike is just a dick move?
“I’d put it this way: Vandalizing someone else’s property in an attempt to make some kind of a statement is just bullsh*t to me. E-bikes are here. They don’t need to be vilified. We need to have a rational dialogue about how and where these things make sense on road and off road.”
![Sign of the times by Mari Lynch]()
Taking The High Road
Emling's final sentence strikes me as singularly important, because the one thing the bike industry is not having is a rational and honest discussion about e-bikes, at least when it comes to e-bikes on singletrack trails. And that is a problem.
On one hand, we have a lot of companies bum-rushing the show to sell these things. The cycling market is flat and brands are desperate to keep their lights on. If that means selling e-bikes, then slap a motor on it and move it out the door. On the other side of the divide, we have a lot of people who are enraged that e-bikes might be coming to their trails soon. A lot of those people hate e-bikes because the bikes are “lame,” “cheating,” and/or just “not really mountain biking.”
A big part of cycling, for me, has always been about pushing my limits. To me, the essence of riding is knowing that I, and I alone, am responsible for cleaning every tricky section, summiting every climb and setting every shoddy, half-assed personal record that I have set. But that’s just me. You are under no obligation to like mountain biking for the same reasons. If you want to ride an e-bike, you should be able to. It is not akin to killing puppies or defrauding grandmothers of their pensions. It is riding a bike. It is also riding a bike with a motor, yes, but that's not an offense punishable by death.
![Photo by Sarah Mah Withers Cycling Western Colorado]()
And yet…if people are riding these bikes on every trail that is mountain bike legal, we are poised for a serious problem, because taking an e-bike onto singletrack is still verboten in a lot of states. For starters, e-bikes are not permitted on non-motorized trails on most federal (BLM, US Forest Service, etc.) lands in the United States. Adding an unhealthy dollup of confusion to the mix, rules and regulations governing e-bike use on state and local lands are all over the map. It's a confusing mess, even for people who are aware of the issue, who want to do the right thing and stay on the right side of the law. And what about all the people who have no idea that e-bikes aren't Kosher on every trail?
![E-bike map]()
Yes, People for Bikes has a map on their site (see image above) that gives a rough snapshot of e-bike regulations in the United States, but dig a little deeper and you find that e-bike regulations vary, not only state-by-state, but county-by-county. The map, well intentioned as it may be, is of limited use at this point. And, really, how many bike shops even know this map exists? Meanwhile, e-mountain bikes are now beginning to roll out of those same shops.
What we have here is the perfect recipe for widespread trail closures. And I do have a problem with that.
![wrecked by vernon felton]()
Don't Punch The Baby
But here’s the thing. I’m not going to punch the baby. I don’t think that lashing out at e-bikes or the people who like them makes any sense at all. While it may feel good to leave a flaming bag of e-dog shit on a forum or call people out on Facebook or give an e-bike rider a bad time at the trailhead, it doesn’t solve any problem; it merely gives you the false sense that you are being heard and that you are doing something constructive.
If you are pissed about e-bikes, you can always type it out below; that's what the Comments section is for, after all. Be my guest. But while you are at it, there are infinitely better channels for your fury. Ring up IMBA, call up your local club, talk to your legislators, tell People for Bikes. Go to the people who are either making decisions on e-bike access or who are trying to pave the way for e-bikes on trails. Tell them what's on your mind.
I’ll also argue that it’s worth your while to ride an e-bike before you pass judgement on them. That is, to my way of thinking, common sense. We should understand a thing before we form an opinion about it. It might change your mind. Or maybe it wouldn’t. Either way, you’d be informed.
Me? I’m not against the things. E-bikes don’t light my fire at this point, but I am not going to insist that other people forgo motors because I choose to do so. I will, however, continue to point out to the bike industry that we need to do a much better job of educating bike shops and consumers about where these things can and can’t be ridden. Trails are going to get shut down if we don’t get a handle on that.
In short, I’m not telling anyone that they shouldn’t be angry. I’m saying that if you are angry, do something constructive with that anger.
Don’t punch the baby.
My daughter is stunned. If I’ve taught my kids one thing in life, it’s this—you never, ever punch babies.
Or play with Daddy’s chainsaw.
Or try to make the chickens fly by throwing them out the second-story window.
Or…
Well, I guess there are a lot of very obvious things that you have to repeatedly teach kids. None of them things you ever suspect you’d have to teach anyone. Not back in those halcyon, pre-child rearing days when you envision parenting as this grand, nurturing journey where you march hand in hand with your little angel towards enlightenment and self-realization. Ultimately, as a parent, I’ve spent a lot of time just trying to convince the kids to stop Krazy Gluing their body parts together. And, no, my children don’t eat paint chips. Thanks for asking though. But the baby-punching thing? I’ve never had to teach my kids that one. The hellions, mercifully, understood that one implicitly. So, you know, win for me on that score.
But this other kid at last Saturday’s soccer game? He’s struggling to grasp the finer points of the golden rule. He just walked up to his little brother (who is more of a toddler, really) and socked him one. His mom is rightfully mortified. How could her child do such a thing? Hadn’t she raised him on non-violent cartoons? Isn’t he in the advanced pre-school program? Didn’t she refrain from buying him that toy AR-15 for Christmas?
Sure. You can do all that, but if you learn one thing as a parent, it’s this: You have a lot less control over your progeny than you might imagine.Sometimes an older sibling just gets pissed, walks up and lays the pimp hand on his little brother. Shit happens. Or, as the parenting books solemnly intone; sometimes a child doesn’t understand what to do with his angry feelings and he acts out.
To be fair, it’s hard to know what to do with your anger sometimes. Even as adults we struggle with that challenge. And, yes, here’s the point where I start talking about e-bikes. Buckle up.
I am not, for the record, advocating the punching of infants. Let's be clear about that. It's just part of a greater analogy. And, yes, we'll get to the bike angle in a second. Hold your horses. Photo by Memekode
Well, What Did You Expect?
I could publish a recipe for scrambled eggs, or a haiku about snails or post up a picture of wildflowers abloom and you know what the top-ranked comment from Pinkbike readers would be? It’d be “f*ck e-bikes!” or if the commenter was feeling particularly loquacious, “f*ck your f*ckin’ e-bikes!” There’s a range, you see.
People hate themselves some e-bikes. At least a vocal chunk of our readers do. And many of them hate e-bikes so much that they can’t stop typing their rage out in screamy all-caps…even in response to articles that have nothing to do with e-bikes. People are angry. And they are lashing out. They are, in a sense, punching the baby. I’m not sure who the innocent baby is in this scenario, so the analogy isn’t exactly bullet proof, but you get where I’m going with this: We currently find ourselves in a very Hulk Smash E-Bikes! kind of moment.
You could argue, of course, that the Internet—in addition to being a brilliant conduit for porn and cat videos—is, above all else, a digital repository for anger. You might also say that Pinkbike’s forum has historically been a halfway house for a whole lot of very pissed off people. But this isn’t just a Pinkbike thing. Just about every other mountain biking site I visit these days is aflame with the same kind of e-bike anger. And in a few rare cases, that anger moves beyond the digital world.
Haters Gonna Hate…
On July 23rd, Larry and Lori Garon parked their e-bikes in downtown Aspen. The couple has a home about 10 miles away; they wanted to pedal more and drive their car less, which is why they’d bought a couple of Trek e-bikes from a local bike shop, The Hub of Aspen, earlier in the season. Anyway, the couple is in town for an art fair and a bite to eat. When they returned to their parked and locked bikes, they found that someone had popped off the Power button from the head units of their computers.
“Obviously, it was a real drag because their bikes were almost immobilized,” says Tim Emling, the owner of the The Hub bike shop. “So the Garons came back to the shop and we were able to fix that. We sent them on their way and got some replacements ordered up for them.”
A couple days later, the same thing happened to three of the bike shop’s own e-bikes, which were parked just outside the store front. Emling takes it all in stride—no one is throwing rocks through his window, there is no mob of anti-e-bikers storming his bike shop with blazing torches, but still….
“Obviously someone isn’t psyched on the whole e-bike thing,” says Emling. “I get it. I understand that if a guy got on an e-mountain bike and crushed everyone’s Strava records, he’d be pissing off the locals, but my stance on the e-bike thing is this: No one has come into my shop looking for an e-bike out of laziness. No one is saying, ‘I want one of these because I don’t want to work as hard.’ It’s mainly people like this couple whose bikes were vandalized. They just want to get their car off the road.”
To date, e-bikes haven’t posed a risk to trail access around Aspen—because the rules were simple: E-bikes weren’t allowed on anything other than a few Forest Service access roads. That may change in the future. Colorado is one of the few states to have enacted legislation that breaks e-bikes down into three different categories. Proponents of such laws often contend that making distinctions between relatively low-powered e-bikes and the throttle-twisting variety helps land managers make better, more informed decisions as to where e-bikes do and don’t belong.
To date, e-bikes haven’t posed a risk to trail access around Aspen—because the rules were simple: E-bikes weren’t allowed on anything other than a few Forest Service access roads. That may change in the future. Colorado is one of the few states to have enacted legislation that breaks e-bikes down into three different categories. Proponents of such laws often contend that making distinctions between relatively low-powered e-bikes and the throttle-twisting variety helps land managers make better, more informed decisions as to where e-bikes do and don’t belong.
Tesla had no idea how much shit he'd be stirring up. On the flipside, microwave burritos have saved countless lives. There's that.
We can put a finer point on this kind of legislation: The end game here is to open up more trails to e-mountain bikes. I think that’s fairly clear. And this does raise some thorny issues. We’ll get to that in a minute.
Emling has been selling plenty of “townie” style e-bikes. Even though he has received some interest from people wanting to rent e-mountain bikes, he’s chosen not to go that route.
“I didn’t want to be culpable for having renters riding those bikes where they aren’t allowed to,” says Emling. “Plus, if I am renting an electric full-suspension mountain bike to someone who doesn’t know what they are doing on a bike, then all of a sudden they can get themselves into a situation on the trail where they are in way over their heads. Or, if they are not conscious of how the bikes work and they don’t power them down on descents they could have a real safety issue with someone riding a trail much faster than they even intended to or are capable of. I get the resistance on the mountain bike side, at least within our community, but in terms of recreational around-town use, I don’t get the opposition.”
You mean jacking up another rider’s rig because you disagree with his choice of bike is just a dick move?
“I’d put it this way: Vandalizing someone else’s property in an attempt to make some kind of a statement is just bullsh*t to me. E-bikes are here. They don’t need to be vilified. We need to have a rational dialogue about how and where these things make sense on road and off road.”
Photo by Mari Lynch
Taking The High Road
Emling's final sentence strikes me as singularly important, because the one thing the bike industry is not having is a rational and honest discussion about e-bikes, at least when it comes to e-bikes on singletrack trails. And that is a problem.
On one hand, we have a lot of companies bum-rushing the show to sell these things. The cycling market is flat and brands are desperate to keep their lights on. If that means selling e-bikes, then slap a motor on it and move it out the door. On the other side of the divide, we have a lot of people who are enraged that e-bikes might be coming to their trails soon. A lot of those people hate e-bikes because the bikes are “lame,” “cheating,” and/or just “not really mountain biking.”
A big part of cycling, for me, has always been about pushing my limits. To me, the essence of riding is knowing that I, and I alone, am responsible for cleaning every tricky section, summiting every climb and setting every shoddy, half-assed personal record that I have set. But that’s just me. You are under no obligation to like mountain biking for the same reasons. If you want to ride an e-bike, you should be able to. It is not akin to killing puppies or defrauding grandmothers of their pensions. It is riding a bike. It is also riding a bike with a motor, yes, but that's not an offense punishable by death.
Photo by Sarah Mah Withers/Cycling Western Colorado
My concern is less with e-bikes themselves and more with the way the bike industry is rolling them out in North America. To date, there is no clear and comprehensive plan for ensuring that trail access doesn’t suffer as e-bikes roll out of shops and into the hands of a public that has not been given clear guidance on where motorized bikes can be legally ridden. And that, frankly, is irresponsible.
More and more bike shops are going to want to sell e-bikes. They need something--anything--to bring new customers in the door because the local bike shop is struggling these days. Nearly 39 percent of bike shops in the United States went belly up between 2000 and 2015. So if someone walks in wanting to buy a five-thousand dollar e-mountain bike, most shops are more than happy to sell or rent them that bike. I‘m guessing that very few of those shops, however, are telling prospective e-bike buyers, “Here’s this very expensive bike and here’s a map of the couple of places you can legally ride that bike off road, because most of the trails around here are closed to e-bikes.”
Tim Emling, back at The Hub of Aspen, is taking the high ground and forgoing easy money on bike rentals in an effort to keep Aspen’s trails open. He’s a rare bird.
To be fair, bike shops (and the larger bike industry) are in the business of selling bikes, not regulating how their customers use those bikes. It’s not part of the business model.
More and more bike shops are going to want to sell e-bikes. They need something--anything--to bring new customers in the door because the local bike shop is struggling these days. Nearly 39 percent of bike shops in the United States went belly up between 2000 and 2015. So if someone walks in wanting to buy a five-thousand dollar e-mountain bike, most shops are more than happy to sell or rent them that bike. I‘m guessing that very few of those shops, however, are telling prospective e-bike buyers, “Here’s this very expensive bike and here’s a map of the couple of places you can legally ride that bike off road, because most of the trails around here are closed to e-bikes.”
Tim Emling, back at The Hub of Aspen, is taking the high ground and forgoing easy money on bike rentals in an effort to keep Aspen’s trails open. He’s a rare bird.
To be fair, bike shops (and the larger bike industry) are in the business of selling bikes, not regulating how their customers use those bikes. It’s not part of the business model.
And yet…if people are riding these bikes on every trail that is mountain bike legal, we are poised for a serious problem, because taking an e-bike onto singletrack is still verboten in a lot of states. For starters, e-bikes are not permitted on non-motorized trails on most federal (BLM, US Forest Service, etc.) lands in the United States. Adding an unhealthy dollup of confusion to the mix, rules and regulations governing e-bike use on state and local lands are all over the map. It's a confusing mess, even for people who are aware of the issue, who want to do the right thing and stay on the right side of the law. And what about all the people who have no idea that e-bikes aren't Kosher on every trail?
Yes, People for Bikes has a map on their site (see image above) that gives a rough snapshot of e-bike regulations in the United States, but dig a little deeper and you find that e-bike regulations vary, not only state-by-state, but county-by-county. The map, well intentioned as it may be, is of limited use at this point. And, really, how many bike shops even know this map exists? Meanwhile, e-mountain bikes are now beginning to roll out of those same shops.
What we have here is the perfect recipe for widespread trail closures. And I do have a problem with that.
Don't Punch The Baby
But here’s the thing. I’m not going to punch the baby. I don’t think that lashing out at e-bikes or the people who like them makes any sense at all. While it may feel good to leave a flaming bag of e-dog shit on a forum or call people out on Facebook or give an e-bike rider a bad time at the trailhead, it doesn’t solve any problem; it merely gives you the false sense that you are being heard and that you are doing something constructive.
If you are pissed about e-bikes, you can always type it out below; that's what the Comments section is for, after all. Be my guest. But while you are at it, there are infinitely better channels for your fury. Ring up IMBA, call up your local club, talk to your legislators, tell People for Bikes. Go to the people who are either making decisions on e-bike access or who are trying to pave the way for e-bikes on trails. Tell them what's on your mind.
I’ll also argue that it’s worth your while to ride an e-bike before you pass judgement on them. That is, to my way of thinking, common sense. We should understand a thing before we form an opinion about it. It might change your mind. Or maybe it wouldn’t. Either way, you’d be informed.
Me? I’m not against the things. E-bikes don’t light my fire at this point, but I am not going to insist that other people forgo motors because I choose to do so. I will, however, continue to point out to the bike industry that we need to do a much better job of educating bike shops and consumers about where these things can and can’t be ridden. Trails are going to get shut down if we don’t get a handle on that.
In short, I’m not telling anyone that they shouldn’t be angry. I’m saying that if you are angry, do something constructive with that anger.
Don’t punch the baby.
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having a motor | not having a motor
TLDR: you blur the line by not focusing on distinctions, and making analogies within stories instead of focusing on the 'line'.
Works every time.
Narrow-minded as that sounds, it is what it is. Many others in my area of the world and others feel the same way.
Vandalizing another rider's bike is a lame move. Advocating for sensible rules governing e-bikes so that they don't wind up costing all of us our trail access? That's a much better move. That, in a nutshell, is the point of the article. I'm very clear about that--I made pains to explicitly state it several times. I don't blur the lines. If you are pissed about e-bike, be constructive about it. That is the message.
An E-bike can and has to be pedalled.
hikers and equestrian riders are mad about it and yell at us.
people didn't buy the brand new SB5/5.5/6 just to get yelled at, so they have to yell at someone.
can scooter kids just get real into diggling so we can direct our anger at them, instead of at e-bikes?
I hate your argument. We simply can not wait until access is lost to take action. The risk of lost access out weighs whatever reason you may have to allow ebikes to be sold in the United States.
@utopic If you vandalize anyone's bike, you're an a*shole. That's the line.
I'm not a fan of people blowing up unsanctioned trails in my area by shuttling DH bikes through a private residential neighborhood or dumbing down trails by cutting trees and buffing lines out, but I try to talk to them, I don't mess with their equipment. Seriously.
And if anyone has a problem with old people on pavement e-bikes, there's something wrong with them.
Local lbs? Manybe when the lbs sells them their bikes they should also inform them where they can legally ride them. Bike companys need to realize that with more trail closures the less number of people will be riding, less number of people buying mtb bikes, less people clicking on pb. The whole industry suffers with trail closures!!!!
1. Harley Davidson, Yamaha R1, Triumph, Kawasaki 450F - these are examples of motorbikes. Specialized Turbo Levo does NOT resemble them in any fricking way.
2. Nobody gave mountain bikers a full right to ride in nature, don’t behave as if you fricking belonged there. You don’t. You are a tolerated guest. You havo no voice
3. I don’t like e-bikes, industry behaves like bunch of a-holes coming to a party with empty hands and drinking everyone’s beer. I don’t want e-bikes on trails. Just like I don’t want people on regular mtbs who are so stupid that they can’t tell the difference between an e-bike and a motorcycle.
4.nobody gives a tiniest damn what you and I want.
No
Are they allowed or able to ride a skate park?
No
Are they considered skaters by real skaters?
No
Why should e mopeds deserve a different consideration?
They are always ridden by people w no skills, and no fitness.
This is just because the bike industry is nowdays run by people that have nothing to do with cycling or sport. More products, more sells, exploit the market, then move to another sector. This is what they teach you at Ivy League schools.
Every year there is a new bs innovation, that often makes your 3 years old bike impossible to buy parts for.
What is going to be after e mopeds? Two stroke bicycles? Virtual cycling? Water cycling?
Stop with this elitest bs. You're not special because you can ride a mountain bike. If people with no skills and fitness see e bikes as a pathway to a healthier or more enjoyable lifestyle so be it. Don't bash them because your ego hurts when they ride past you.
@vernonfelton: I read: Don't attack the bike or the rider, blame the manufacturer and the government. It's not the shooter or the bump stock; it's republicans fault, or the manufacturer.
I say all four suck. That's where we differ.
"Nobody gave mountain bikers a full right to ride in nature, don’t behave as if you fricking belonged there. You don’t. You are a tolerated guest. You havo no voice."
This is a regional issue. On the eastcoast we (I've) never experience the trail nazi's telling us what we can and cannot do in the trails. We use common sense and show respect to nature. You take out what you bring in. If you build it, maintain it and show it respect. If you'e a hiker, get the f*ck off the mountain bike trails. If your a mountain biker - dont be a dick.
E-bikes aren't really the problem, it's the uneducated people riding them. If you want to ride one to be more eco-friendly or you have an injury and you want to still enjoy the trails, thats fine. But educate yourself on where and when its appropriate to ride one. The same way you adhere to traffic laws, the trails in your state or region apply, and the people selling them to you should have a responsibility to pass on that knowledge.
slow news day vernon?
clickbait.
I always pass them going down and up as well. Regardless it does not take much as they are slow as hell. And I would be too, if I was riding that tank.
The elitis are the ones who fork out 5-10k to buy an electric veichle and they occupy places they should not.
All kitted out with tld but can’t even wheelie?
Cyclist train for years to reach a big mountain top... they just buy it.
There are few mountains in the alps that closed acces to all bicycles because of the larger crowd riding electric mopeds.
You need to earn a mountain, can’t buy it.
If older people want to use it, go ahead, but all I see is young and chubby or middle age lawyers.
Motors = loss of my KOM. Where does it end Vernon, where does it end....
Don’t you look on the bright side? My girlfriend has a debilitating chronic illness. There are months out of each year when she could only ride 10-20 minutes with me in the mountains if she tried. I have thought about getting her an Ebike so she can take it easy and maybe keep up for an hour to get some enjoyment. I wish I could afford one at all, let alone a fancy one that would be so “sneaky”.
Most people don’t run red lights just to be sneaky, or steal candy from a baby. If you’re worried about people sneaking around stealing your rights to public land maybe you should start looking at the politicians that we elect, or the private companies that exploit the natural resources of our public lands. Are you going to let them do that?
What about just getting people into the sport who would never know the enjoyment until getting a ride on an ebike? Rent an ebike once a week and then graduate to a regular Mountain Bike. What about people with disabilities? Out of shape family or friends getting the chance to keep up with their athletic friend. Might be good motivation.
Admittedly regulation and being able to tell the difference between a class one e-bike ( aka allowed on bike pathsand needs to be PEDALED to work) and a motor bike ( aka has a throttle and needs to be ridden on a road or in an OHV area) is needed.
The negative, ignorant knee jerk reaction of "it's a motorbike" is not only incorrect it's getting OLD.
I know more flat regions have more emtbs but same thing there. No one use the trails.
Also funny that the last mega avalanche also had a separate e mtb race going on on the same track.
If you are an a*shole you could f*ck up trails fast with and without e bikes. It only matters what kind of a turd use the bike.
@stacykohut - you just kicked the baby in the face.
I don't claim to know the solution to ebikes. But I do know thay that being dogmatic in either direction will only stiffel useful converststion and ultimalty force a line to be drawn...work with your community for a solution, dont punch the baby.
Personal Accountability and Awareness is the most important metric here... The regular MTBer needs to be aware of his impact on his surroundings and regulations. The people buying AND SELLING the E-Bikes need to be aware of their impact and regulations regarding their available usage.
@deadmeat25: Trail damage caused by heavier motorized vehicles. Want more? There are a LOT!
@McNubbin: Bingo! I'm all about bringing new users into the sport, but you have to think.. "if they're not physically fit enough to get out here on their own, they better have enough friends with them to carry them AND their E-bike back to their car, when it fails" And it will fail. Have you EVER had a mechanical item that didn't fail at some point?
just the way they've been pitched, which is to say not very well, at the target population, us. Also take into account a real lack of any substantive new ideas other than changing bullshit standards, and you had some pissed off people. For an economical alternative to commuting or to making short trips with the car, I think that they're fantastic. But as far as we (mtber's) are concerned, the industry has missed the mark. First of all, no advertising what so ever other than a few shred videos with guys who probably never ride them in reality. Why should we want them, why are they better? It all comes off as nothing more than another money grab by a bunch of suits that have become disconnected and lost touch with why we ride in the first place, with the e-MTB being the ultimate embodiment of that disconnection.
@therage43 - I homestly could not give much crap about anyone dying while riding a bike, hiking or climbing or performing any sort of outdoor activity. If their battery dies and they end up spending a cold night somewhere it's all good, for everyone involved. No matter the outcome. Natural selection is a great thing, without risk it would not be fun. But there are risks you impose on yourself and ones coming from other people. I just worry about not colliding with a poor bike handeler riding at 20km/h up a trail I am descending
www.altamotors.co/redshiftmx/#redshift-mx
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[https://www.altamotors.co/redshiftmx/#redshift-mx]
2. Walked out to get gas from a 4x4 trip as we brought not enough spare fuel.
1+2 = opps!
What is your point? That occasionally people get spanked in the bc...
Sorry man, no idea why I responded to your post, I was trying to reply to @bman33 and I think I messed up... My bad.
@therage43: @tsn73:
I cba getting into a discussion about this if I'm honest because it's not an issue that effects me, trail access in Scotland is great.
Having said that, I agree that I probably understand very little about the issues regarding trail access in the states, but my point was not that California or Colorado need to change their polocy, it was that the entire nation should possibly look at the way it views the access issue. Why is there apparently a need to decide who "owns" the outside, and who gets to determine when you do and do not get to use it?
I dunno, I just think that the way this discussion is being framed is wrong, it shouldn't be about preserving trail access, it should be about the removal of restrictions to where walkers/horses/bikes are/are not allowed to go when on the only planet we have access to... Then you can think about motor bikes, and if E bikes count as bikes or not.
In small towns where tourism related to biking is a big part of the economy, you find they have much better local policies about trails. But in any of the more populated areas (and I am referring to Socal now) mountain bikers don't count for jack shXt!! It's really sad actually but there is always money for a new football/baseball facility but all that happens is land gets taken away and access blocked for trails. And even the trails we do have are ALL mixed used trails. Either hiking/equestrian/biking or hiking/equestrian or the odd trail which is hiking/biking. There is not a single dedicated mountain bike trail that is not mixed use.
And the hatred towards mountain bikes is real. I live right next to some trails that the equestrian folks have commandeered. These asshats regularly sabotage the trails for bikers. I know because I ride them multiple times/week and I regularly undo the BS that the saboteurs do. I am skilled enough that they haven't got me yet and I make sure to thoroughly remove them so beginners won't be injured. My backyard trail was re-routed to make it more horse-friendly and less bike-friendly. Even though in that same park, mountain bikers are the only ones who help maintain trails, there was no bike consideration whatsoever when the horse folks pressed to make changes.
And yes the OCTA (Orange County Transportation Authority) is using public money from a 1/2 % sales tax to buy up massive plots of private land (many of which had trails on them that previous owners turned a blind eye towards use) and turn them into off-limits "Wilderness areas" where you can be arrested for trespassing against - not just a misdemeanor either, criminal trespassing. But then to "give back" to the public, about 6 times/year there are "docent-led" hikes and horseback rides. I contacted them and volunteered to guide bike rides just to see what their response would be - you guessed it - we have no plans to open these lands to bikes.
So yeah it is very frustrating, as you realize after awhile that the cards are against you. You can try and fight but there are only so many hours in the day. A guy has to go to work and raise his family etc. I contacted my local IMBA chapter to voice my concerns and try to get involved but quickly realized that they too realize what they are up against and basically take a "roll over and die" approach.
So I agree with you, it would be so much better if an intelligent conversation about e-bikes could happen, but considering the environment the USA riders find themselves in, it really does not make sense to promote e-bikes on the limited trails we have legal access to.
I will say though, that largely due to the Rock N Road bike shops, who are mainly a Specialized dealer, I am now seeing e-bikes in all the OC parks almost every ride and they are clearly not allowed there. In some ways it makes me realize maybe they (pedal assist e-bikes) aren't that big of a deal, but also it makes me realize that we could be just getting closer and closer to having all bikes banned from these parks. And if anyone cares, I will never spend $1.00 in Rock N Road again for that very reason.
Battery life for an ebkie running at full power is less then an hour at 28 mph. Most roadies can maintain this with a moderate level of fitness. They are a disadvantage on the downhill because of the additional weight and hard to move around so you'll get higher speeds on a regular mountain bike .The benefit of an ebike is only on flats and uphills and flats is only marginal.
Then you are completely off if you think that e-bikes are not causing trouble as commuters. They do. Majority of people in my town have no fkng clue about riding a bicycle, they are careless, show no respect to other users of traffic, especially pedestrians. When they find themselves at a risk of collision They are much more enticed to use a ring bell than brakes and handlebar. And now these people are given a possibilty to easily reach 18Mph, whereas before they were going around 10mph. Yes, MAMILS on road bikes, or "elite commuters" as we call a characteric group of cyclists here, are equally dangerous and ride even faster, like 25-28mph but they are very few and ride better.
E-bikes are a safety problem that has to be adressed. Especially since it is so easy to hack the speed/power limiter. I see a few hacked e-bikes on cyclepaths in town a month
#HorsesR4burgers
I call horse boxes burger vans. Hope this makes someone's weekend / makes it into standard diction.
I often take my CX bike when I ride with my wife. It's a lot more fun to chase her than it is to wait around, and being out on the trails with her is a lot better than having her uninterested/unable to ride with me.
But I already know with an ebike I'm going to have a new problem. It would be two seconds on the trail and I'd have the spandex mafia after me. I would likely just tell them to piss off, but you know it's elitist shit like this hatred of people who just want to ride bikes that makes me want to ride my motorcycle instead. Seriously.
What people here don't seem to understand is that just because they're not into something doesn't mean others aren't. If it's not your cup of tea, so what? It's hers. As long as she's using it legally, it's her business.
Now we can discuss proper usage on trails and bike paths and all that, but just to poop all over someone and vandalize their property because they're into something you don't like is some bull. But then that's basically what Vernon wrote.
Nah, I see you bike industry.
I am comfortable making exceptions to general rules for people with handicaps, and one of the ways could be allowing e-bike use on otherwise non-motorized trails. The point I was making is that beyond a certain difficulty of trail, you need a minimum level of fitness and skill to make it through the trail. If you lack that fitness, you become a hazard to yourself and others. If you are fit enough to handle advanced descents, you probably aren't handicapped enough to merit making an exception.
For example, any public trail labeled as downhill only should probably be off limits to eMTB. That's an indicator of higher speeds and technical trail features, and why would you want the extra weight anyway? These trails are subject to more erosion already, at least human powered ascents limit the number of laps in a day.
Absolutely. But there are designated places to ride dirt bikes, some with power and speed limitations. Emtb can be legally used on those trail systems.
The crux of the problem is manufacturers trying to act like emtb are not motorized, and to pifgy-back onto the access that mtb have worked hard to gain. Unless the landowner explicitly allows emtb but not other motorized vehicles, users need to assume ebikes are only allowed on existing motorized trails.
Rogue trails, I say leave it up to the builder. Its illegal regardless of user so mtb doesn't have a moral high ground.
They're tearing up trails and are a hazard? Maybe it's true for certain trails with erosion issues or whatever, but for the most part, I'm not sure I'm buying even that. My favorite trail here in my town is multi-use, including dirt bikes. They banned them for a couple years, and with the ban came more hikers, who, quite frankly, did more damage to the steeper parts of the lower trail than the dirt bikes ever did. Now the dirt bikes are back, and the trail might be in better shape than the last time I rode it before the ban was lifted. There's certainly no difference, and dirtbikes would have more of an impact on the terrain than an ebike ever would. But maybe our trails are more hardy, and can withstand that type of thing. I don't know.
As for the struggle to gain access to trails -- there's just not much of a struggle here, so I just can't relate. There is an ongoing issue with a single trail, but ebikes won't affect the outcome one way or another -- they don't want anything up there.
All joking aside, I agree with you man. I don't understand why we here in the states put the needs of the tiny minority ahead of the vast majority at an increasing rate. My mother has fibromyalgia, it's no good, but I would never dream of jeopardizing access for thousands and thousands of people so that she could ride a few miles of trail. Riding a bike is not something she does well at these days, so we do other things instead. Pretty simple, really. I appreciate you being realistic when assessing your fitness and abilities as they relate to growing older. When I can no longer ride a bike on the trails I ride today, I'll ride less challenging trails. And when those become too much for me, I'll go hiking or fishing.
Clearly you ARE being responsible--enjoying the benefits of an ebike, but riding where it is allowed and not jeopardizing access for others. The broader point I was trying to make was with regard to the lame reasoning of "I just can't ride the trails I used to when I was younger/wasn't injured/etc. so I should be able to ride an ebike on my favorite trails". It reeks of entitlement and selfishness. Life changes, you adapt--in your case, an ebike and gravel paths are the solution. I'm behind that 100%. However, there's no way I would risk access to a trail system for hundreds or thousands of people by riding unauthorized transport where I don't belong, or worse, insisting that my *motor assisted* mode of transport be allowed to ride the coat tails of the decades of work the MTB community has put in to build or gain access to those trail systems.. I just wouldn't do it, and people who try to make such an argument are boneheads..
Someone was gonna say it, might as well get it out of the way.
Of course, BPW does charge you more for riding an e-bike
Looks like its going to be up to the e-bikers to establish access rights for e-bikers in the US. Its there country and there complex legal system so only US citizens can sort it.
The US seems to like lots of local laws so you could make it mandatory for e-bike retailers/rental shops to hand over a legal notice on trail access for E-Bikes. That way the e-biker has no defense and can be locked up for at east 50 years for an infringement. If the shop doesn't issue the notice it gets shutdown and the owner jailed.
So long as we don't get to many de-restriction idiots (turning them into motorbikes) I think we will be OK in the UK (and Europe). An e-bike is only allowed a max 250w motor and cuts out at 25kph and throttles are in effect banned (only up to 6kph). Anyone breaking that should be jailed for driving an unregistered/taxed/insured vehicle illegally and made to ride a hybrid for the the rest of their life..
For a tiny country we are more tolerant and liberal of activites such as green laning (makes e-bikes look like a gift from god), riding in the rain and wet and general access. We also have a system that on the whole airs towards more open access to the countryside and rivers. Furthermore our laws are set nationally not regionally (give or take minor devolution) so for the Government to be discussing the banning of an e-bike means they are not trying to get Brexit right. Hmm. Priorities
I usually end up failing to stop myself punching the kid who punched the baby.
Before I say anymore, I have demo'd ebikes three times as recently as a few weeks ago just so I know what they're all about. I figure I can't piss on the parade if I don't what the parade is all about... I have zero interest in them nor do I want them on mixed use trails. I have motos for when I want power-assisted fun - there is no grey area in this argument for me.
Constructive? Sort of... Yes, I agree we shouldn't vandalize others property. Good, valid point as there is no place for that. Being rude to ebikers on trails where they don't belong? I'm probably OK with that as I've "been that guy" and have zero regrets about it. Especially after the douche told me he knows they ebikes are not allowed on those particular trails... We expect bike shops and consumers to keep these things on the right trails? Right...
And this is where Vernon and I do not agree. "We, the people, need to solve this problem by channeling our energy." I'm sorry, I just can't behind that. How about the moral obligation of many of your manufacturer advertisers to hold off selling ebikes in one of their largest markets until the situation is sorted? They could sell "townies" for the folks in Aspen. How about writing a constructive, pointed article putting the burden back on the manufacturers? I'll be waiting for that one... As always, profits fog common sense and the near-sighted approach of dumping these things into a market in turmoil is baffling but not surprising.
Manufacturers only need to come here to comments section to get an honest view of the situation albeit arguably a narrow one. Speaking of - whatever happened to that Yamaha bikes follow-on article? I see the Yamaha representative had the balls of a toddler and only responded once to their press release "article". Did they decide Pinkbike wasn't the best venue for their "soft launch" of small displacement motorcycles?
The ebike conversation and approach in the US is so f*cked up, I've stopped volunteering for trail maintenance days and attending meetings/events advocating for trail access. To think that this issue is the responsibility of folks who have already spent so much time fighting for trail rights to now have to go back and do that all over again is just flat out wrong...
Off my soapbox now and off to rip on my MOTORcycle at the ORV park (I'll be on the lookout for some ebikes).
While the mfrs pushing e-mtbs in the US market do ultimately bear most of the responsibility for the situation, is it realistic to expect them to stop what they're doing without organized pushback from mtb orgs? What exactly is the mechanism for getting that message to them? If bike companies set their product / marketing strategy based on people bitching in PB comments the industry would look a lot different than it does right now... but they don't.
I agree it's not really a fight any of us want to deal with, but I don't see how checking out of advocacy, trail work, etc makes anything better.
I just don't agree with it and why I'm not spending any more time on it. It's tough as I've spent countless hours volunteering and advocating but until this bullshit clears up, no mas. At this point, I'm more likely to volunteer at my for profit ORV park since at least they got their shit straight.
I'll challenge Vernon or any other writer to publish a level-headed and constructive article calling out the manufacturers and their role in the problem. It won't happen - it's their livelihood so we get articles like the one Vernon has published tackling the problem from a different angle - "it's on us". No thanks.
And to reiterate, I'm a huge fan of Vernon's work. I just don't agree with him on this topic.
No argument from me there. I'd love to see that. Sounds like he's on it!
I'm amazed that anyone can morph @vernonfelton 's CLEARLY STATED opinion into some objectionable e-bike propaganda worth getting worked up over. The piece literally states that we need to "educate bike shops and consumers about where these things can and can’t be ridden. Trails are going to get shut down if we don’t get a handle on that."
I have no love for IMBA or ebikes, but the fact that I think they're bad for our trail access situation doesn't give me license to stop being decent to people, or to intentionally damage their bike just because it has a battery on it. There's no false equivalency there, that's just basic morality. If you don't agree with those points, you may want to consider whether you're a crusader for a cause, or just an a*shole.
Nobody says anyone has to like ebikes or advocate for them on your trails. Vernon's piece is about not letting our beliefs turn us into an a*sholes, and using our energy in a more constructive / less dehumanizing way.
The filth is real and PB is just one of many smoking guns we'll look back on in disgust when we wonder why MTB land access stagnated.
I'd say that this system works really well.
(a) make sure shops and ebike owners know where ebikes are/aren't allowed, so they don't screw things up for us
(b) get involved with political / industry groups that reflect our views on ebikes
(c) don't be destructive a*sholes to individual ebike owners, because it doesn't solve our trail access issues (and it's a shitty thing to do)
You're right bro, that's some deeply disturbing propaganda @vernonfelton is pushing. I can really see future me being "disgusted" with such horrible "smoking guns" of ebike love.
You seem like a person I wouldn't want to ride ANY bike around, motorized or not. Maybe read the whole piece next time...
A lot of the worst case scenarios you hear people associating with e-bikes just don't happen in use. They don't tear up the trails more than a normal mtn bike (and Lux has the worst mud I've ever ridden in), and people aren't hot-rodding them to go faster. It's older people wanting to still get out, or riders who like going for very long distances in their rides while touring. No one gets stuck in the woods because their battery dies, it's pretty idiot proof.
I understand trail access is more of an issue here, but they're really not all that different from normal mountain bikes in most regards.
On a more basic level, if people think they can take something all for themselves they often will. Generally we have a pretty litigious/activist culture here, and if a group of hikers (-ahem- Sierra Club -ahem-) decides they don't like bikes whizzing by them, and they think they have the clout to change things, they'll go for it. Between city/county regulations and federal Wilderness designation they have a lot of tools at their disposal to make that stuff happen. Idk what it's like in Europe, but around here people will just say "oh they can go ride somewhere else, I just don't want them in my backyard". I don't think that really applies in Europe, where everyone is sharing comparatively small bits of wild land.
Pretty frustrating, tbh. If Americans had a similar attitude to what you describe in Switzerland I'd have zero problem with ebikes on trails. It's just pure politics here, and in many aspects of public life we've forgotten how to be tolerant and decent to one another.
Depending on where you want to cycle, eg a national park or forestry area, different rules apply. My city is situated in an area of massive floral diversity with over 3000 different kinds of plants in a small area. However, the national park and botanical garden we ride in allow cycling and trail development provided its done in accordance with the environmental laws and in predetermined areas. These areas have the highest levels of environmental protection but cycling is still allowed in many areas both here and in other such parks. This is partly because it generates tourist revenue which in turn funds conservation. The US laws prohibiting cycling seem particularly unfortunate when seen in the light of the relative lack of biodiversity present.
User conflict develops in areas that were recently opened to cycling. Some of the hate on cyclists is unfortunately justified because of the entitled way they ride through these pedestrian filled areas...
Ebikes haven't been an issue at all however. They are very expensive but getting more common slowly. I doubt they will ever cause trail access issues here.
The traditional conservation organizations are still by and large run by old-school anti-bikers with nearly unlimited pockets from an organizational standpoint.
Here in Montana with the latest forest plan revision process, we are at risk of losing thousands of miles of trails to "Recommended Wilderness Areas" (with hundreds of miles already lost). I open every news article I see talking about the subject with dread because I know that the odds are against mountain bikers in this fight.
We do not have a unified national mountain biking community stepping up to the plate as there are still far too many people with the "why should i care about wilderness areas if I don't live near one" mindset (although hopefully this is getting better as more awareness is drawn to the problem). I understand that things are never black and white, but even if the entire mountain biking community was unified with regards to trail access we would STILL face an uphill battle given the organizations (and $$$) opposing us.
Given all of these things, I cannot ignore the likely negative repercussions that would come if e-bikes became common on trails here.
There is zero doubt in my mind that the anti-bike crowd will latch on to e-bikes and try to link them with traditional mountain bikes to justify their original goal of keeping us out of "their" trails. It is vital to keep the distinction between traditional mountain bikes and e-bikes clear or we risk providing a silver bullet to the people who would deny us legal access to the trails we know and love.
I hope for a solution that gives e-bikers fair access to trails, but I don't want to risk losing out because of it. While this is certainly a selfish sentiment, I believe it is also a pragmatic one given the current trail access environment we have.
If there was a magic situation where ebikes (motor bikes) could be brought in and we (traditional mtbs) were guaranteed not to lose any access, I personally think the e-hate comments would stop.
That said, there is the possibility that e-bikes will attract more people/money to lobby for trail access. Most people who buy e-mtb's clearly have time and money to lobby. It's complicated.
If that were true, you're as dumb as you are angry.
OR maybe you're just a Bot.
They label states that classify a motorized bike as a motorized vehicle as "problematic". I prefer them to be regulated as motorcycles.
While ebikes are currently slower than what we traditionally think of as motorcycles, that won't last long. They will soon be indistinguishable in terms of performance from motorcycles yet look like a normal bicycle. And when I say indistinguishable performance, that means it can accelerate fast enough to burn out and will have a top speed well beyond what is acceptible on public trails.
We could try to differentiate between different sizes of motors or other criteria, but I believe that would be a futile effort. It wouldn't work at all. Legal and illegal bikes will look identical except to extreme bicycle geeks. It just isn't feasible for cops to police the city parks looking for people who have illegal bikes or illegally modified bikes.
I had the opportunity to visit the Petersen Automotive Museum in LA a couple weeks ago. There are dozens of motorcycles from 80-100+ years ago that have pedals. Even an electric one!
There is a hard line. Motor | No Motor. Non-motorized trail use agreements mean eMTB are not allowed.
When it comes to illegal trails, I think it should be up to the trail builder. You're trespassing anyway, so the arguments against eMTB fall down pretty hard.
People who hate on these machines scare me. They only see the world with a narrow scope, and in my opinion, they are why we are loosing trail access. Mtbing is not some elitist club that only the fit and healthy are able to enjoy. Mtbing has been and should continue to be the opposite of road cycling, and should continue to embrace changes and new comers with open arms. Is change scary? Yes it is, but you cannot play it safe and win in this world.
I complegely agree with your point about more people entering the sport, particularly an older crowd, being a good thing. I hadn't considered the issue from that angle.
It does raise some concern about people getting in over their heads, but I wouldn't have a problem with e-bikes on low difficulty trails or fire roads, as a way to lower the threshold for newcomers to the sport. I'm sure my parents would enjoy an e-assisted pedal up to the top of our local mtn - a place too far for them to access otherwise.
We would probably keep the same pace, and they wouldn't want to ride the technical descent. They'd be happy riding back down the fire road
Also, we dont need more people in the sport here. And there is no way we can outnumber other city park users. It’s an interesting dilemma that I don’t think most bikers have ever seriously considered. How many bikers are too many bikers?
Man I want me some pacific crest trail mtb access so baaadddd..
Yeah we pay money our moneys to our local orgs to try an' make it happen, we go to the fs meeeetttiiinnnggsss...
We're as polite as can be on the trails and still the floppy hatted hikers are such haterrrrrs....
They even hate trail runnerrrrrssss!!!
The hikers are arguing from passion not science or pragmatismmmm,
Aaannd they use these f**king ebikes as another excuse to say no.
So watch out that baby ain't no baby, its a prison-tatted rapist!! Electricuuuuutttte iiit 'til its deaaaaadd....
Thank you thank you very much.
who cares about getting passed by an e-bike as long as it's a safe pass?
"cheater" only applies where there are rules- ie: a sanctioned race.
That's like saying someone passing you on a $10k superbike is "cheating" because you're riding a clunker. Take pride in your choices and fitness and do your own damn thing, what others choose to ride has nothing to do with you.
Trail access is a legitimate concern that needs discussion.
EgoBabyBros getting butthurt because someone is having a different kind of fun is a non-issue and only deserving a good laugh at their fragility.
However emtbers shouldn't be made to feel like they have some form of contagious disease at the trailhead for they're choice of ride, and it says more about the person saying than it does the recipient. I've only ever encountered one issue of this sort when I've been out as most riders are relatively level headed, so to set the scene I was out on my own riding up a fire road to the next section, 3 fellas were a way off up front but naturally I caught them up, conscious I did t want to burn past I nodded said hello and I slowly went past. I stopped at the next trailhead to adjust my knee brace (I have no ACL and a torn meniscus) when these guys started to come closer, I heard them bickering amongst themselves with things like "us real humans" and "they shouldn't be allowed" etc. I chose not to say anything when They turned the corner and saw me there, of course initially they didn't say anything and I asked if they'd like to go first, to which I had a reply of no you better as your on a motorbike, I then explained that it wasn't and I'd leave ample space etc, it got a little tit for tat and it ended with 2 outcomes, me feeling like I had somehow wronged them and partial rage and them probably feeling like they shouldn't come back to that trail anymore (these plate my local tracks and these guys were from 3 hours away) anyway, my point is there are 2 sides to this and in-house fighting doesn't solve anything. WE all love cycling and I probably shouldn't of piped up myself or just let they're comments fly but I've reflected and it is what it is. Enjoy riding whatever bike you own, enjoy the woods, and the exercise.
My only gripe is when did emtb's become the new roadies?
Neg props to follow
If you go quicker for the same energy input, you're doing less work. That's physics. Whether we should care about how hard it is for you or anyone else is a different thing . Without the access concerns we have in the states, I wouldn't care. More fun for the same effort sounds sick to me!
I also have a torn ACL and meniscus, sorry man. Isn't too much of a problem for me on the ascents, but makes the world a no-fall zone on the descents.
Maybe ebiking needs to be a permitted activity to monitor use, track violators, and generate income to municipalities that will be implementing their access. If my wife and son can ride one and clear the rock gardens and hills that I ride, maybe they'd ride with me.
Maybe ebikers would increase the number of trail users that would attract attention of local land managers here to pay attention to their safety, so they actually do something to prevent the illegal mx and atv riding that is damaging and closing trails here.
I need the exercise and am not interested in one due to the complexity, weight, and cost. But when I retire, I think I'd give it a go.
Not saying mess with people's stuff because that is wrong, but we should never accept them and people need to know that they are awful people for riding them.
We should also not buy bikes from companies that make eBikes. (so no Trek, Specialized, Scott and soon Santa Cruz) and we shouldn't buy product from people like TLD that support eBike racing.
Or is that too simplistic? The land issue seems to be uniquely US/Canadian one, in the UK e-bikes whilst viewed with suspicion can ride the same trails as organic assisted models. Is this more about the fear that they will be used as a baseless argument for proponents of the wilderness act?
For the record I don't own an e-bike and whilst I don't intend buying one, I am e-bike curious. At my age I carry years worth of old injuries, niggles, knees verging on gammy, these e-bikes are likely to be my future. For now I still fall into the camp who sees themselves as not 'cheating' my sophisticated linkage supported 160mm full suspension unrecycleable carbon wonder bike, with dropper post and eagle drive train is all I need thank you very much, plus I have the option of paying top dollar to a man with a minibus and trailer to shuttle me up and down hills should the need arise.
Finally, on the land issue. I maintain the trails at one of the UKs busiest trail 'centres' and over the last two years of increased e-bike sales in this area, I can't see any difference or increase in trail erosion.
I agree that Motor+bike= motorized vehicle, plain and simple. Keep them Off the trails we've worked So hard to get access to and build.
I've seen the rigs some manufacturers are pumping out; ie: Giant. The thing comes with a Lyric RCT3 for crying out loud! It may not cause rooster tails, but an average guy, like me on an Ebike would crush all the KOMS. And what would that prove.
And that sign with all the non this and non that should just read "No Motorized Vehicles" Sums it up nicely.
First, what type of power do they add?
Do they assist pedaling, or are they a legit motor?
Do they work going down and up?
When I initially heard about e-bikes, the marketing pitch was that they would make it easier for older/less able riders to get up the hill, but they were otherwise very similar to a traditional mountain bike.
For me, the main reason why I think dirtbikes shouldn't be on trails is because they destroy them. If an ebike gives you a little boost going up, and doesn't impact the ride down, I'm not sure what the big deal is. That said, I wouldn't buy one, and would definitely tease my friends if they brought one to the trail.
I saw an E-bike on unsanctioned trails in Santa Cruz for the first time today. We all know Santa Cruz isn't the only area with well known trail systems that aren't really on the map, but authorities know about them and could pull the plug at anytime. So many areas have trails on thin ice. Do we really want to see what happens when E-bikes enter the fray?
I have no hate for the e assist bikes in the MTB range. I see all these comments about trail errorsion and I am baffled, until you realise no one has likely ridden a new MTB style e bike, they are not what 90% of people I talk think they are.
I rode specialized's latest offering as a demo at 24 MTB race ( no not on a race lap) here the thing it doesn't just go, you have to pedal and then it gives a little assist, on steep stuff it sure helps a lot and maybe you are going to faster if your fit than someone on an MTB, but new user who doesn't have the legs is still going to struggle to keep up with the cardio kings.
It sure isn't spinning its tires and digging holes and throwing dirt around. It is NOT a dirt bike.
Like in this thread everyone is going to day f*ck ebikes without ever trying them.
Do you know what the next post they are going to comment will say ... BRAPPP brappp
I am writing from Austria, European Union and must admit that e-bikes are allowed on the same trails where normal bicycles are allowed. This personal experience applies for DACH countries (Germany, Austria, Switzerland) and Italy, where MTB=eMTB in terms of trail access.
By e-bikes I mean:
- 250W motor power max
- no pedaling - no motor help
- motor does not help beyond 25 km/h
This definition makes it clear that e-bike is no more powerful than any MTB rider in decent shape. Skidding rear wheel on a normal MTB makes way more impact on the trail.
On rides around Vienna I meet 1-2 people on e-bikes every ride. And I am happy to see this!
Those people are mainly 50+y.o. and e-bike lets them continue to ride despite heart issues, knee and other medical conditions they have. It also makes me believe that I can continue my beloved hobby when I get old. It also makes me happy for the 65y.o. who has an option to enjoy 25 km ride in the forest without getting into ambulance. My friends and I consider taking our unskilled and untrained girls for a day ride as e-bike makes it possible for them to keep up uphills and non-technical "flat" sections (75% of the ride time). Sure, with less skill they are no match for a downhill sections, but, hey, the time difference on short downhill is no more than minutes.
Then do better! Quit charging me 80 bucks for a rotor when I can get it online for half the price! Or go to your supplier and obtain a better deal so you can make your margins. Don't bring this into the conversation, this is not the point.
I admit e bikes are here, who cares. Just don't muddy the water with something like this.
You know why?
Because, more people into the sport means a bigger voice for the sport and it also means more money for the sport. Unless we want to keep seeing trails closed and land access cut off we need more people with cash flow to be a part of our sport. Mountain bikers have really disappointed me in their inability to see this opportunity to bring new life into our sport and make it more obtainable for everyone. Thankfully the loudest voices on Pinkbike's forums have no actual pull as to where this industry is going.
But that's different from mountain biking. People ride trails for enjoyment and fitness (or at least I do), not to get to work, or an appointment, or pick up some groceries. I don't think e-MTBs belong on trails that are currently limited to hikers, normal bikes and equestrians (for that matter, I think equestrian use should be looked at as well). If people want to ride them on trails open for motorized use, I think that's fine. And to be honest, I think that's where most of us sit on the issue.
I read some previous comments regarding the fact that they help differently-abled people enjoy the sport. I think forward to when I'm 75 and want to go mountain biking, and I wonder how I will feel about them then. But I have come to terms with the fact that there will be a day when I am not able to do some things anymore (not just MTB), and that's just part of life, whether it's due to the abilities you were born with, age, or injury. I try to take care of myself, so hopefully I will still be on the trails at 75. When did we get the idea that we have a right to enjoy things that we are unable to do? That just baffles me.
Man, Felton, I love your writing and all, and basically agree with most of your points, but this is just wrong. Big wrong. I don't need to ride an eBike to understand it any more than I have to wrestle a pig to know something is awful. There's no mystery in understanding eBikes: they provide a boost for people who can't and/or won't pedal hard enough to get where they want to go. And I don't mean that in a disparaging way. I see the purpose and utility in eBikes, and I am especially stoked to see the local ancients here out riding the bike paths instead of whiffing past my elbow in their sedans. But, I don't need to ride an eBike to know that more power in the hands of morons never has a good outcome. Your argument for regulation and clarity is totally sound, but not the idea that I have to cross to the dark side to understand my (possible) enemy.
I.e. I would be adding a layer of technical challenge to the uphills before enjoying my share of downhill rough.
The negative of e-MTB as usual has to do with lack of education & respect on part of the riders who e.g. enjoy whizzing at max speed weaving through the pedestrian flow on the wide and flat fire-roads (seen that first hand).
C'mon? Is that their idea of "mountain" biking?
I can definitely see why some groups hate to see e-bikers on pedestrian trails, besides the consideration of the lack of trail specific skills that will cause more accidents (which in turn strain the resources of the rescue and medical teams).
As far as implementing specific e-mtb controls on the trail - seriously how could this possibly work? They disassemble the motor to make sure you're not running a goosed-up tweaked variant of the legit factory lo-wattage version? Or would you need to have your bike pre-checked by some kind of authority who would issue a trail-pass which you would have to exhibit to whoever is in charge of trail patrol?
As e-MTBs allow more low-skilled riders to mingIe and tangle on the trails with trekkers and horse-riders am afraid that the mtb community as a whole will probably be confined to some kind of pre-agreed playgrounds a.k.a bikeparks or selected resorts (Livigno, Madesimo etc.).
After all in the Dolomites some trails are off-limits to horse riders, for example, and on this basis it would be easy for MTBs (assisted or not) to be called out as well. After all "the outdoors" is becoming an industry, with more and more fans eagerly wanting to enjoy their share: on foot, on horseback, and whatnot. But the actual available resources (trails, loam, gnar) are limited, at least here in many parts here in Europe. I am afraid that our free-roaming mtb days, e-assisted or not, are coming to an end.
#NoSolution
*Yes yes I know that Chris Akrigg would make breakfast of the aforementioned trails BUT I am confined to office job and can't train/ride as much as he does.
If trails are actually to be shut down because of e bike use, it will most likely be MOUNTAIN BIKERS (who are against e-bikes), calling local authorities and alerting them of illegal trail users.
The "core" mountain biker tough guys are going to be the ones who eventually get the trails shut down. The likely oblivious e bike guy will be just as bummed when its gone.
Regardless of opinion, dont you think this whole drama about ebikes is a bit self destructive to the scene?
If I ripped out the ignition on all those Douche Canoe of a truck (jacked up gas guzzling pick up. Usually a Tacoma) that I see everywhere at the trail heads, would those owners get on an e-bike to get home 70-100km away?
So it's not the riders or the bikes, it's the manufacturers (looking at you Spec... again, if there was a model bad citizen, you'd be it).
To me it seems like People for Bikes (ebike manufacture shill) is equally complicit in this. It shouldn't be 'problematic' if an ebike is regulated as a motorized vehicle. It's problematic when it's unclear how an ebike is treated. Not to mention the status on the map is referring to local rules largely pertaining to commuting on a bike path, NOT ability to use federal or state non motorized singletrack. Coincidence that the group pushing ebikes is headed by the dude the guided IMBA to so many years of ineffectiveness?
If you want sustainable long-term mountain bike sales make sure younger generations get into the sport by:
1-Having attractive affordable bike options that are durable and easy to service
2-Pinkbike, and others, need to test and report on these affordable bikes
3-Bike brands need to support grass roots racing/events
Too many bike brands want to focus on selling expensive higher profit bikes for older generations with high disposable income.
I love LBSs, but this is coming eventually. The cost of modern bikes is making MTB a rich kid sport.
Keep motorized vehicles off non-motorized trails. Get more people into biking instead of pushing your lazy-boy bikes.
If only someone would invent a bicycle that couldn’t be immobilized by removing the power button!
E-bikes aren't going away.
Neither is the (warranted) vitriol.
And babies are still getting punched.
RUN DMC said it best: It's like that, and that's the way it is.
He's had a bad day now
It's great to see that areas with a higher population density actually need to define what is acceptable on their trails, I can only hope that the introduction of eMTBs is the final wake up call for our local government and others like it to make up its mind on where they stand on ALL access issues.
Really I just think they've come too quickly, and marketed incorrectly.
They are an amazing opportunity for many people, whether it means replacing a car or being able to ride despite some health issue.
What we really need is to just calm down and tell the e-bike makers that we don't want to replace our bikes with e-bikes, so please start making the e-bikes for the people who just want to bike.
Thank you.
European Union directive 2002/24/EC from Wikipedia:
"Cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25km/h (15.5mph) or if the cyclist stops pedaling."
I hate tubeless. Does this mean I can slash all your tubeless tyres guilt free? Or is there a double standard here because you don't have an electric motor?
Most of the people we come across when out riding are more than happy to see him out riding, on an ebike or not, it tends to give them hope that they can keep riding themselves when they get older and their body starts to pack up.
On the 'Motorbike' comments, they are laughable if you actually ride motorbikes. I just sold a Triumph Speed Triple R, my brother rides a Honda VTR1000 Firestorm and my old man has a Triumph Rocket 3, they are nothing at all like a Levo...
- Bike shops business model is build around policing how what they sell is used. OK, well if said bike shop doesn't care, then trail access in their area gets closed, now they aren't selling MTBs or e-MTBs. So maybe they should re-think their business model. And I keep hearing on forums that we should support our local bike shops. Perhaps also local bike shops should support their customer base that relies on that trail access by not doing something that will put that in jeopardy. It sounds like the shop specifically mentioned in this article gets it at least; they DO have a responsibility.
- There may be some people that hate that E-bikes exist. This just seems silly. But those that claim that adding a motor is the same as development of suspension and disk brakes are fooling themselves. It is not the same. These are in fact a different category of vehicle. There is nothing wrong with this new category existing, but we all have to be honest that it is a new category, even those proponents of E-MTBs.
- It would be much better for proponents of E-MTBs and the MTB community to work together and with land owners. Instead of assuming that E-MTBs will ruin the world, talk about the issues, how to educate people on proper E-MTB usage and trail access for their area, and on the inherent differences and technique between riding MTBs and E-MTBs. I think most people do care about laws and riding legally, whatever they are riding. It is not like MTBs are actually allowed on all trails. If MTBer's can keep themselves off of trails restricted from MTB use, I'm sure E-MTBer's can do the same. There will always be a-holes that don't follow the rules, but as long as the vast majority of people follow the rules the risk to trail access should be quite low. But it is essential that the communication is there and that everyone works together. This ties into what the article talks about for a responsible roll-out of E-MTBs into the US market. It's all well and good that in Europe that there is a big Kumbaya lovefest between land owners and trail users, but that is not the case here in the US, and without a plan, it will make things worse for trail access in some areas.
- I would prefer E-bikes not to be promoted by MTB sites. While these categories of vehicles are related, they are not the same. I'm not saying they shouldn't be mentioned, especially in articles like this, but I personally don't like that a lot of mountain bike sites have simply started to review and advertise e-bikes to the same level as regular mountain bikes. Some are coming to a near 50-50 split (looking at you Bikeradar). To me, this is the definition of blurring the line. I understand that there is also revenue involved for these sites as there are advertising dollars at stake. But I think it would be much better (and honest) to create a new site for the E-MTB focus, if you are going to cover them to this level. Even put the link to that site on your MTB site to the E-MTB site, that would be fine. Or in the case of bike radar, make an E-bike or E-MTB subcategory like they do for Road, MTB, etc already. But don't push this new category of vehicle as an MTB. People who are really into mountain biking in general, percentage-wise, have no interest in this E-MTB stuff, so they don't want to see it in their faces all the time. This may be why there seems to be such a disproportionate amount of hate on the forums of these sites for the mere existence of E-MTBs. People that are into MTB enough to frequent MTB sites don't want to see a bunch of articles about E-MTBs.
- Vandalizing property of others is never acceptable or permissible, ever. Ever. Or being rude to someone riding an E-bike. If you see someone violating trail access rules with their E-bike politely inform them of this; it may very likely be a mistake on their part. If you see them doing it again, simple report the mi-use as appropriate. No need to be a dick or a vigilante. That makes you the a-hole.
Well, I don't think this hate is about e-bikes. We are territorial animals, once we ride a certain trail, it becomes "our" riding spot and anyone who's not from our "pack" or an invited guest becomes an intruder. Animal packs usually adopt only their own kind, so, by comparison, for a mountain biker, everyone else would be intruders on his " own riding spot", be it an e-biker, hiker, ATV, car, or even another slower or faster mountain biker. In addition, an e-biker looks like either a degenerated animal or one that mimics the kind of the pack in order to cheat the adoption ritual (sweating the climbs to earn the trails).
We need 2 things: to evolve beyond our animal instincts and to understand that the places we ride are not only "ours". If we do this, we'll be able to evolve further, to dump the posessiveness and share, to develop proper rules of etiquette and ride - hike - bike - motor - whatever happily ever after.
"... you envision parenting as this grand, nurturing journey where you march hand in hand with your little angel towards enlightenment and self-realization. Ultimately, as a parent, I’ve spent a lot of time just trying to convince the kids to stop Krazy Gluing their body parts together."
As positive as I try to be, most of my parenting comes down to "No, stop, don't..." repeat.
E bikes. Great alternative to other motorized vehicles, like cars.
Motors and electronics have permeated almost every inch of our landscape.
Is it too much to set aside a small part where only by the strength of the human heart one can tread?
I prefer my riding to be self-powered, but I just don't get some of the arguments against eMTB that are being constructed. They're just blatantly hypocritical. It's a lot of "well I got mine, but f*ck you and your ebike".
a very large portion of [ebikers] have to decide between riding unsanctioned trails or not riding at all. With such awful trail access in many parts of the US...there just isnt even an option sometimes. Sure you could spend 10 years lobbying for one trail and dump thousands of dollars into legal fees fighting [mountain bikers], wealthy equestrians and nature lovers...but youll waste most of your life not riding.
It's a nuanced issue, but if people were more willing to share trail access...it would be fine. but thats not how it is...and the odds are a lot higher that all bikers would lose total access because of some unwilling to pedal uphill. Most MTB'ers wouldn't give a shit about your E bike otherwise, they might tease you for it but there wouldnt be a huge reason to restrict access otherwise.
"well I got mine, but f*ck you and your ebike"....isnt really true because most areas " dont have theirs"...they are trying to get it and Emtb works against that mission
That doesn't seem to stop a bunch of knobs on non-eMTBs going and f*cking Strava-ing their rides, and then the park rangers go in and decommission the trails. I know for a fact that the park service monitor the Strava Heat Map (labs.strava.com/heatmap) in our area and use it to decommission illegal trails.
These same knobs are the ones who piss-and-moan the loudest about eMTBs being on "their" trails, and how it's going to endanger trail access.
That was the point of my first comment. These jerks don't see the hypocrisy in riding unsanctioned trails and then complaining about eMTB.
forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/motobecane-hal-e-looks-like-cool-whip-1058744.html#post13402675
Change the bikes for guns, strange how a motor can cause so much hate but something that can kill another person is so vehemently defended.
Please think about that before you post a thought back.
Bit off track I know but worth the obs.
F's sake PB, just start a separate mobility/every bike site. That'll keep your real bikers happy AND your ad revenue flowing
Dolla dolla bills yo
godmann those laws, they´re screwing all the manufacters marketing bs! all those new possible e-clients down the drain...
While I probably won’t throw down the money, I could see getting a fat ebike now that I’m back to living in a mountain town a couple miles from my watering hole to make it easier to meet up friends for a drink in the middle of winter. And I have motocross trails near my house that it would be fun to ride on midwinter. I’d rather spend the money on a snowmobile to get me to some remote backcountry skin tracks easier, or on a regular fat bike, or a new backcountry ski setup. But, I understand why someone would want one.
Loving internet
sudden big e-bike hates
in spite of man snail
Pinkbike: Say no more
I understand wanting an electric motorcycle. Why would you want pedals on something with a motor? Get a mountain bike or an electric dirt bike such as KTM, quit posing.
The bike shop lack of profit excuse is hilarious, with the MTB market booming these days with how good the bikes have become, and people throwing down ludicrous amounts of money on bicycles. If the online shops are killing the local bike shops, why won't they also kill the local electric moped shops?
Local bike shops selling electric mountain mopeds will experience the opposite effect on profits over time due to repelling people who ride actual bikes. People who were on the fence between buying online or in the LBS have now completely written off the LBS after walking in and seeing the new shipment of electro peds. Goodbye to any bike shop irresponsible enough to sell these things.
If you are a parent, then you are probably way better at it than me, but I find it difficult juggling a full time job, all the regular day-to-day responsibilities of parenthood, and using the small amount of time occasionally left over to go do things with your kids that will hopefully turn them into the kind of adults that you would chose to be friends with even if you weren't related, and then still find time for myself.
Don't get me wrong, I make the choices I do because it's more fun to see them have a good time than it is for me to have a good time by myself. I just want the holy grail... something that is way fun for everybody.
Consistency is the key if we wish to be effective.
"What we have here is the perfect recipe for widespread trail closures. And I do have a problem with that."
My problem with that statement is that you simply fuel the fire you're supposedly trying to put out, that one line is all the ammo the dickhead ebike haters need to continue firing their constant barrage of drivvel at ebikes and ebikers, and whilst preaching to everyone else about being constructive rather than simply abusive, you offer not even a glimmer of an idea about how to sort it out, now that's lame.
Your piece did nothing to help at all, unless you are FOR ebikes, you're simply yet another fool that would stand shoulder to shoulder WITH those that would ban ebikes, for no logical reason i might add, making the argument on behalf of people that would ban even regular MTB's if they could, the type that just wants to ban everything to feel a ounce of control in their pitiful lives, in this case, banning bikes they don't understand from land they don't use or even visit. The reason i say that is because if you are actually AGAINST ebikes, there is something mentally wrong with you, it's like being 'against' electric cars, the electric car next to you on the road, is having exactly the same negative impact on your life as the guy over there in the woods on his ebike, absolutely no negative effect at all, all you have to do is get on with your life and do what you came to do, ride your f*cking bike.
You should stand with your fellow bikers, who want the same thing you do, just to ride bikes, on road or off road, and have fun.
The fact that you even mentioned Strava shows you are looking in the wrong direction on this, Strava users that cry about being beaten by an ebike should be taken outside and physically beaten until their first world problem demon is fully exorcised, until they realise that like a person reborn after a near terminal accident or illness that life is for living, breathing the air, smiling and having fun, not spending every waking moment trying desperately to stop those that would mar what is both an entirely personal and ultimately totally insignificant achievement, here's a revelation for you, no one but you give a f*ck about YOUR Strava times. If you want to race, go f*cking racing.
Here in the U.K, like the rest of Europe i see no problems at all, the trail 'industry' is booming, more and more ebikes are being sold, along with more and more trails are opening up their doors to them. If you have morons making your laws over there that's your problem to sort out, but change won't happen by constantly dividing opinion and being a prick.
What could work is if someone was to organise say a 5000 strong ebike ride on land where their use is prohibited, and then do it again, and again, and again. Make a f*cking point and take a stand against stupidity.
I'll make this point very f*cking clear so there can be no confusion, the electric mountian bike i'm referring to has pedals, like the ones mentioned in the post, bikes that are currently made by mountain bike manufacturers, i am NOT talking about any of the high speed throttle actuated off road electric MOTORBIKES you can buy, and whilst they look like tons of fun, that is NEVER what any of us are ever suggesting should share trails with regular MTB's.
Final thought:
I remember playing on the slide as a child, i loved it, but it was the walk back up to the top of the slide that was by far the best part.... Said no one f*cking ever.