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UPDATE: Nukeproof, Vitus, Chain Reaction Cycles & Wiggle Face Uncertainty as Parent Company in Financial Trouble

Oct 19, 2023 at 8:55
by Ed Spratt  
photo

Signa Sports United is facing financial difficulties as the past month saw it announce restructuring, delisting from the New York Stock Exchange and the termination of a 150 million euro equity commitment from an affiliate of its largest shareholder.

The e-commerce company Signa Sports United (SSU) owns a large collection of online sites and partners across outdoor sports, tennis and team sports markets. SSU also has ownership of the bike brands Nukeproof and Vitus as its list of owned retailers includes Chain Reaction Cycles and Wiggle.

The latest report from Cycling Electric suggests that Chain Reaction Cycles and Wiggle could be looking to enter into self-administration, a situation where the current leadership could restructure the business without the need to call in external administrators. Currently, this move has not been officially announced by the company but we will provide an update as soon as we have it.

Looking back to earlier this month SSU announced to investors it would be accelerating "its strategic realignment and performance enhancement program in light of continuing macroeconomic headwinds, oversupply in the market and the Company’s severe liquidity and profitability challenges." In its investor press release, SSU notes that a "continuation of material disruptions" started in the second half of last year and affected the first nine months of the company's 2023 financial year.

While the press release notes that the company has seen some market improvements in this time the demand for product remains "significantly below 2022 and pre-pandemic levels." Inventory levels were also noted as being high, with SSU stating the problem in clearing inventory is "resulting in a material adverse effect on the Company’s gross margins and increasing negative cash flows."

As part of the planned strategic realignment, SSU said its board of directors and management have concluded upcoming measures will include "the streamlining and rightsizing of under-performing business units, the termination or winding down of non-performing assets as well as the opportunistic evaluation of disposals of non-core assets to strengthen the company‘s distressed liquidity position and financial profile."

It was not made clear what parts of the business will be affected by these measures although SSU does explicitly mention its bike segment where it advised the segment's operating performance "continued to lag management expectations." It was mentioned this is a result of the industry-wide problem of lower demand and the increased "promotional activity to rightsize inventory levels."

Also in this announcement was the decision to delist from the New York Stock Exchange as "Company’s Board of Directors has concluded that the benefits associated with being listed on the New York Stock Exchange do not justify the costs and demands of management’s time necessary to meet the Company’s US regulatory commitments." In a snapshot of the companies stock performance a clear downward trend can be seen since it began trading in December 2021.

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A further blow to the company was delivered on October 16 when SSU published a statement detailing the termination of a €150 million equity commitment from SIGNA Holding GmbH, an affiliate of the largest shareholder SIGNA International Sports Holding GmbH.

The equity commitment from SIGNA Holding GmbH was claimed by SSU to be an "unconditional commitment" to provide a total of €150 million in "additional liquidity" from September 1, 2023, through to September 30, 2025. SSU claims of the €150 million, €143 million remains undrawn.

bigquotesAfter many years of mutually trusted collaboration and reliable financing between the Company and SIGNA Holding, SSU has relied on the binding and unconditional nature of the Equity Commitment Letter to continue to draw funds to meet its near-term obligations and for its going concern assessment of the Company and its subsidiaries. The Company considers the termination of the Equity Commitment Letter by SIGNA Holding unjustified.

While the Company regrets the termination of the Equity Commitment Letter, it will take the appropriate legal steps in the interests of all its shareholders, creditors and employees.
Signa Sports United

The most recent news of the potential self-administration of Chain Reaction Cycles and Wiggle has been accompanied by riders such as DJ Brandt sharing on social media that they will no longer with riding for the associated brands of SSU as contracts have been cut short. DJ Brandt said: "I wanted to make a post explaining why I won’t be riding for Nukeproof anymore so there wasn’t any rumors. I was on a 2 year deal until the end of 2024 but it got cut short due to Nukeproof's parent company losing a massive investor. It’s not my fault, it’s no one I worked withs fault. Just the product of some bad business way above any of our heads."



Update:

SSU has announced to its investors that Tennis-Point GmbH, one of its major subsidiaries has filed for insolvency with its other legal entities expected to follow.

In a small update posted to SSU's investor news page the company has stated that after the termination of a €150 million equity commitment Tennis-Point GmbH, an e-commerce company spanning bike, outdoor and tennis markets, has filed for insolvency.

The latest company statement also reveals that other legal entities of SSU are at risk as the company says: "Other legal entities of the SIGNA Sports United group, including SIGNA Sports United N.V. as ultimate parent company of the SIGNA Sports United group, are currently in the course of preparing similar filings in line with applicable local legal requirements and will expectedly initiate the necessary filings in the coming days."

We have also spotted that the SSU North America’s bike division has been shut down with just a few days' notice. Hap Seliga the CEO of Bike, North America posted on LinkedIn with the following statement.

bigquotesToday an amazing group of people has been forced to swallow a bitter pill.

Despite exceeding our top and bottom line FY23 goals handily, SIGNA Sports United North America’s bike division has been forced to cease all operations with less than a few days’ notice. This was triggered Monday by a sudden reneging of a binding 150 million Euro equity commitment to SIGNA Sports United N.V.

To say this comes as a shock is an understatement. I haven’t even begun to be able to process this yet.

Culturally and professionally, we created something entirely unique, built on a common passion to earn rider trust. We had the top talent in America in their respective disciplines, and an entirely novel approach to building a commercial enterprise in our vertical rooted in strong values. We made our culture a focus. We empowered and supported each other. We had each other’s backs, our rider’s backs and we moved with speed and conviction. Vitus and Nukeproof were merely steppingstones on the larger path we were building, and the immediate success of those two brands in this challenging environment speaks volumes about this team. And, to think it's all been done in just over a year!

I could not be more humbled and honored to work alongside and learn from each of you every day. I am better for it. Thank you for being awesome.
Hap Seliga






As part of our reporting we contacted the companies and brands involved in this story although at the time of publication we either received no response or we were not able to be supplied with a comment. We will update this article if we are given an update from any involved entities.




Author Info:
edspratt avatar

Member since Mar 16, 2017
2,975 articles

430 Comments
  • 318 3
 Nukeproof, not Recessionproof.
  • 46 4
 They are also far from Nukeproof
  • 27 2
 @TheChrisAndrews: we'll soon find out!
  • 7 13
flag samdaman1 (Oct 20, 2023 at 3:50) (Below Threshold)
 @TheChrisAndrews: the early round tube ones were genuinely very very strong (hence why there’s still loads of them knocking about on the used market!) but everything they’ve done since has been pretty subpar as far as that’s concerned, although I’ve heard really good stuff about how they ride before they crack to be fair
  • 33 3
 Its not even the original Nukeproof anyway, which was founded by a couple americans in Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA in the early 90s.
  • 9 0
 @deeeight: I still have a wheelset from my late mother’s Cannondale Super V that has those carbon fiber Nukeproof hubs from the 90s. Need to find a project bike to put them on.
  • 19 4
 @samdaman1: so you haven’t ridden a newer frame but you know they all crack easily….some serious keyboard warrior life you’re living if that’s the case.
Sick bikes, unreal teams, great tech support and the issue you claim has nothing to do with the issue in the article.

Frames crack and snap from all brands, it’s part of the sport deciding that people are too weak to bunnyhop so bikes have to suddenly weigh as little as possible even though it makes them ride like shit and snap.
  • 6 1
 inb4 vitus e-bikes are 75% off
  • 2 1
 @bouldertom: almost every brand of carbon bikes break rate at 3-4%. As bikes are often sold geographically, ppl have different exposures to different brands breaking more...or less.
  • 2 1
 @stunnanumma1: yeah cool, like I said, bikes break and it’s part of the sport progressing in the way it has

I was defending Nukeproof mate
  • 1 0
 @spencerimre: link me please!!
  • 2 1
 @stunnanumma1: would love to know where you got your 3-4% figure.
  • 2 1
 @hhaaiirryy: Lewis Buchanan's YouTube would be a good start. He has to be on 50% of his bikes this year cracked or fked in some way shape or form no? Evil, trek and his canyon have all malfunctioned early as well.
  • 1 0
 Based on the most recent news above, and assuming CRC Wiggle own nukeproof and vitus, then they have filed for bankruptcy as part of the Tennis-Point filing. Gnarly.
  • 3 1
 I don't doubt it's high, I'd say it's prob higher than 2-3%, like I said In initial post would love to know where he got his figure from. I guess out his ass as this is pinkbike.
  • 3 0
 @bouldertom: important that people understand that almost all carbon bikes are made my 3rd party suppliers. Most of those are making frames for many companies. Layup is labour intensive & needs to be done where labour is cheap. The brand isn't as important as the supplier who made it. The warranty , that's on the brand. With Santa Cruz for example, you'll get a warranty but you'll also pay for an extra frame at the time of purchase. (flirting with 6k cad ATM)
  • 1 0
 @Yekans: i wish i could help you lol
  • 1 0
 @bouldertom: I have and they broke. A slight hit in the chain-guard of my giga and now I have a cracked isgs tabs area.
I've been searching the Facebook groups and there are tons of cracked frames on Megas and Gigas....so yeah, it seems like they crack, no crashes involved.
  • 1 0
 @eugenux: look up "confirmation bias" all carbon bikes can crack , only the mfg knows if their failure rates are out of hand or not.
  • 1 0
 @TheChrisAndrews: the nuke got nuked
  • 169 1
 A shame really, CRC used to be fantastic. As soon as they were brought by Wiggle they started going downhill.
  • 76 0
 faster than Sam Hill in his glory days...
  • 42 3
 Yeah, it was a real Dissent.
  • 26 2
 They had some mega deals
  • 36 0
 I remember browsing CRC in 2005ish, the website was fantastic!! Less so these days..
  • 6 0
 Oh f. You just touched on something that also matters - did Sam Hill have a contract next year? I guess he’s free now.
  • 52 3
 Signa of times I guess.
  • 13 0
 @motardnoob: fondly remember how around 2008-2009 i show CRC to a LBS near me and the owner was like “shiiit, i can’t receive these products this cheap even on my delivery prices as a LBS”… he understood why i ordered everything from CRC!
  • 1 0
 Throwing out puns...
  • 13 2
 @nozes: you so almost had it.

Signa the times I guess
  • 7 0
 Yep, CRC website grim since Wiggle took over and not used for a long time now.
  • 2 1
 They've really scalped themselves
  • 3 1
 @shredddr: Yeah, poor Sam. He got screwed by Iron Horse when they were run into the ground back in the day, and now this.
  • 4 3
 @kabanosipyvo: Yes for sure, Sam the millionaire is the biggest loser in this.....already a post up by his wife showing how big a victim they are. Tiny tears
  • 2 0
 @chillescarpe: where is his wife’s post?
  • 3 6
 @hitarpotar: Her IG, talking about surviving through thick and thin. but don't worry there will be more for every bad bit of news of people losing their jobs: people struggling with debt, childcare bills, mortgages and food bills never mind her millionaire lifestyle
  • 3 2
 @chillescarpe: You should ride your bike more. Maybe you'll become a 6x World Champion and can live the millionaire lifestyle too.
  • 3 1
 @SlikGraphics: No issue with Hill, big fan and followed him for years and years. Just moaning about surviving because he is out of contract vs the 1000s of employees on minimum wage potentially losing their jobs and will struggle to pay for next weeks shopping. Its a reality check.
  • 106 0
 That sucks for CRC, Nukeproof and Vitus, I used to buy a lot from them and loved their products (and the lads from Northern Ireland were nice blokes) but since Brexit anything from them is way too expensive so I stopped buying from them and went to other brands and retailers.The deal with Wiggle didn't help either to be fair.
  • 49 2
 Sadly Brexit halted all my purchases from them. I had to find new EU mainland vendors. Sad times...
  • 123 5
 @carlitouk: Yeah Brexit has been a bit shit really on all fronts...
  • 11 0
 @carlitouk: Yep, the same is true even though they are only an hour north of me in Belfast. Think this has far more to do with the parent companies issues rather then directly with CRC
  • 3 0
 Moving from NI to the midlands, UK won’t have helped there either.
  • 70 0
 As much as I hate on brexshit an it has been fckn terrible.. CRC's downfall started with the wiggle buyout
  • 9 1
 @carlitouk: Same here, I use to buy a lot at CRC but since Brexit I've shifted to other vendors Smile
  • 6 0
 @fartymarty: true
Felt it here in Germany to

Classic lose lose situation
  • 16 0
 @JasperTS: Funny enough I went from CRC to German online retailers like Bike24, BC, etc.Like 80% of my purchases come from Germay now, maybe 15% from France with Alltricks and 5% random like BikeInn, Deportvillage, etc. Another company I was buying loads of stuff from is Superstar Components but even on the products that don't need to pay a mad tarif because they are actually manufactured in UK, most of the time you still need to pay VAT, admin fees and the Pound is too high as well so I stopped all my purchases from then, quite a pitty if you ask me.
  • 2 0
 @Balgaroth: and lordgun
  • 20 0
 @briain: I think what stung quite a bit originally was the fallout from the Chiggle merger; I got the impression that a lot of the teams in Belfast and Portsmouth respectively got unceremoniously dumped in the move to Birmingham.
A lot of the things that made CRC good in particular was the way the staff went about their work; CRC always felt a bit like the online / mail order bit of a bike shop that it originally was. You could search for a 604 ERD rim with 28 spokes with the old CRC site and find a whole selection - you just can't do that any more.
  • 3 0
 Same here
Used to buy a lot and from a looong time cause items were available and with fair prices.
Thinking about it…I didn’t buy anything since Brexit.
German and French websites have become my choices!
  • 5 0
 @naptime: I have heard that CRC in Northern Ireland used to benefit from government subsidies that was intended to support commerce and create jobs in Northern Ireland. At that time their prices were unbeatable and I believe they had support from Royal Mail as well. I believe that support has now long dried up.
  • 4 0
 @tom666: yeah the glory days, I spent a wedge at CRC building my Mk1 Furious, so much so, I got an 'invite only' sale.. used that to build an NS Majesty for peanuts. Back in the days when we could double our club card points :'D
  • 11 0
 @bentudder: the website refresh was crap the filter options on the old sire were head and shoulders better than anything else
  • 4 1
 @carlitouk: same here I order everything form bike-discount, Bikeinn or Koloshop since Brexit.
  • 4 0
 @salvafc: I shifted to german vendors and they were very solid
  • 2 0
 @briain: Feeling that too! I wonder if the website refresh was a bid to drum up more business, isn't it ironic that it seemed to make it harder to find what you are looking for, and thereby reducing business?
  • 1 0
 @HardtailHerold: bikester could also go down if this all goes south.
  • 4 1
 I remember buying an order of tires and some other odds and ends from CRC. It was at my door 4 days later and I didn't pay a dime (pence?) for faster shipping.

These days, I do a yearly order from BikeInn for brake pads and consumables. Shipping is pricey and its 3+ weeks to make it across the pond (most of which is probably waiting on US customs). Still works out to about a 20% discount versus any US retailer and they BikeInn almost always have the exact tires I want in stock.
  • 1 0
 @Balgaroth: i heard Superstar lost 80% of their turn-over with Brexit. Now i still smuggle some bike parts via a british colleague. Looks like Superstar is refocussing on custom CNC parts for other industries.
  • 1 0
 @zoobab2: superstar did stipulate orders to the EU had to be a minimum £140 or something - that’s probably more to do with it and no idea where they get that figure from.
  • 10 1
 Could someone educate me on how Brexit was presented, sold and ultimately passed by the public? I would think most people would see the break from the EU as a negative, mainly from the economic standpoint.
  • 13 62
flag dotman (Oct 20, 2023 at 10:56) (Below Threshold)
 @NuckaMan: as an American, would you appreciate being governed by Mexico?
  • 21 3
 @dotman: If Mexico invested the hundreds of millions in the USA that the EU did...then I might think about it.
  • 5 0
 @NuckaMan: "take back control".
  • 15 0
 @dotman: Mexico is a single country. EU is a collective. Much different dynamics.
  • 10 12
 @dotman: better than being governed by Israel
  • 6 13
flag hitarpotar (Oct 20, 2023 at 11:28) (Below Threshold)
 @carlitouk: you do realize the Eu receive quite a fat amount as a “EU membership fee” from each country, UK included. Then the EU invests, but the investments are much smaller than the fee. Probably 1 of the reasons for Brexit!
  • 100 6
 @NuckaMan: the Brexit campaign lied repeatedly - these seven quotes were all sort of the campaign to leave and all have been proven to be untrue:

“We send the EU £350m a week. Let’s fund our NHS instead”

“Turkey (population 76 million) is joining the EU. Vote Leave, take back control”

“Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market”

“We can take back control over UK waters, set our own fishing policies, and support our fishermen”

“Britain will be forced to join an EU ARMY unless we leave, says Armed Forces Minister”

“The UK government will continue to give farmers and the environment as much support – or perhaps even more – as now”

“Believe me, we’ll have up to 40 [free trade agreements] ready for one second after midnight in March 2019”

Reading those quotes again makes me so angry that these people have not been punished for how much they’ve damaged the UK, both now and for years in the future.

The referendum result was very close - 52% leave vs 48% remain. Those lies alone probably swung it. Also, on average the old voted to leave whilst the young voted to remain. If the referendum was done now, the 7 years of new young voters would mostly vote remain and the 7 years of mostly older voters who’ve died would mostly be unable to vote leave, so the result would be different.

It’s been a total car crash.

But the very wealthy people behind the leave campaign have made a lot of money from it, which is why the newspapers etc that they owned kept pushing brexit as a good thing.
  • 5 0
 @hitarpotar: No, I had literally zero idea. I thought it was a one way street all in our favour. /sarcasm
  • 2 1
 @justanotherusername: Well in fairness if you consider the administrative fees alone, any purchase below 140€ would not make any sense really so capping it is not what is killing their business.
  • 9 2
 @NuckaMan: Yep, lies, big fat white lies sold to a public many of whom were/are reeling from austerity. Result ….
  • 4 1
 @Balgaroth: Nonsense, there are almost zero administration fees for the seller if they sell net vat and allow the customer to pay vat upon import - it’s what we do ourselves and we happily post items around £30 onto the EU regularly.

The only paperwork is an automatically filled out form at the time of shipping and that’s it, no issues at all, customer pays VAT upon import and a few euros handling fee all done digitally and item arrives within a week usually.
  • 3 0
 @NuckaMan: a whole load of lies
  • 3 1
 @justanotherusername: technically that shouldn't work; EU shipments in theory need an IOSS I'd or actual tax registration in the EU for less than 150€ value imports (hence the £140). You can't (if customs go by the book) send stuff under €150 into the EU now. I've had a bunch of stuff returned before we got on top of it.
  • 1 0
 @fartymarty: Not all fronts, the CAP and CFP are in the process of being dropped, but yeah total sh1t show on all other fronts.
  • 13 3
 @dotman: You just illustrated one of the reasons for Brexit happening. Gaslighting works and you still haven't pulled your head out of your arse. Ignorance is the greatest weapon of populist liars.
  • 1 0
 @benpinnick: from what I read the limit isn’t scrapped until 2028, we aren’t having any issues at all right now - maybe some other complications coming in 2025 too.
  • 1 0
 @justanotherusername: it's definitely in force right now, and only set to get worse. It's discretionary as to whether they let parcels slide at the moment but where we got away with it a year ago now it's getting harder. We've had to get registered. Although if you sell via fleabay or similar they do it for you so there it's transparent.
  • 2 0
 @benpinnick: I don’t understand your interpretation of this - we are still free to send duty on demand until at least 2025 when some changes come into play, the 150euro limit is then not removed until 2028.

Can you pass me a link over to where things changed recently?

As I say, we send 5-10 items to the EU daily, have done since Brexit with absolutely zero changes in returned items or issues.
  • 2 0
 @justanotherusername: so you're correct I think, I couldn't find any specific references saying it's currently compulsory to send via IOSS. But that's odd for two reasons. 1 because we've had stuff returned for no IOSS. We got away with it for a year or so then it started to show up more frequently. Second because some couriers won't let you book a sub 150 euro package without an IOSS. Which of course reinforced my view it was mandatory. Odd.
  • 8 1
 @NuckaMan: Brexit voting was split largely on demographic and geographical lines: older people and those in less affluent parts of the country generally voted leave, for instance.

As with all things, it’s never as simple as either side will tell you: leaving the EU has been disastrous economically, but the whole EU institution is fundamentally unfit for purpose and needs urgent reform.

JP
  • 6 10
flag WkDayWarrior (Oct 21, 2023 at 2:14) (Below Threshold)
 @fartymarty: stop blaming brexit. Bike companies worldwide are in trouble and fk all to do with brexit
  • 6 19
flag WkDayWarrior (Oct 21, 2023 at 2:17) (Below Threshold)
 @threehats: incorrect. It would still be leave. And people like you will never truly look as to why. Same as why the Aussies voted no to the voice and Trump won and will win again next year, unless they manage to stop him in the courts.
  • 16 3
 @WkDayWarrior: Polling suggests at least 60% in favour of rejoining, but keep thinking with your outdated feelings. All these regressive results happen because it's easier to appeal to people's base fears than to explain reality in 3-word slogans. It's the loophole in democracy and it's why the world is f*cked.
  • 15 2
 @threehats: "the Brexit campaign lied repeatedly - these seven quotes were all sort of the campaign to leave and all have been proven to be untrue:"

Absolutely. The problem Remain had in the referendum campaign is that we were voting for a known vs an unknown. Remain could only sell what we had - Leave could sell whatever the hell they wanted. If you were considering voting leave but wanted to keep the free market, someone in the Leave campaign would say you can have that. If you didn't want the free market, someone in Leave would say you can have that. If you wanted free movement, you could have that, and if you didn't want free movement, you could have that too. It shouldn't have taken a genius to figure out that most Leave voters were inevitably going to get shafted but apparently it was too difficult for a lot of them to figure out that 20 conflicting policies into one reality doesn't go.

The problem has been compounded by the gradual hijacking of the leave process by the hardest of the hard line right wing leave and burn everything groups. A couple of months after the referendum the big promise was that we'd get Norway Plus, or Switzerland Plus or whatever. Free market membership with no regulatory or free movement compromises (obviously a fantasy, but whatever). Now, the hard right has twisted the narrative to such a degree that they can claim that any move whatsoever towards closer EU co-operation or even free market only membership would be a total betrayal of the referendum result and the vast majority of the media accepts that at face value. It's absurd.
  • 5 23
flag dotman (Oct 21, 2023 at 2:45) (Below Threshold)
 @BenPea: the eu is no democracy, that's the whole point, and stop being so bitter!
  • 6 4
 @dotman: All EU countries are democracies. Don't confuse a democracy with allowing the public to decide the future of a country...that is not the same thing.
  • 7 15
flag dotman (Oct 21, 2023 at 3:11) (Below Threshold)
 @carlitouk: all eu countries are, but not the European Union. Its a cess pool of failed politicians with their snouts in the trough, same as the devolved parliments in the uk
  • 5 0
 @dotman: "Its a cess pool of failed politicians"

And how do they get there? Are you also saying you're in favour of scrapping the Senedd and being governed from Westminster?
  • 3 0
 @threehats: I'm sure it had nothing to do with EU regs that were coming at the time in that allowed governments to see where and if you paid tax in different jurisdictions
  • 5 12
flag dotman (Oct 21, 2023 at 4:02) (Below Threshold)
 @wingguy: meps are elected, the top jobs are placed, Neil kinnock was a prime example. And the senedd definitely wants scrapping, an utter waste of tax payers money, have you enjoyed our 20mph roads yet? Last year the senedd spent 2bn on climate change related nonsense, yet 1.3bn on the nhs and now they want to increase the numbers of members on the gravy train....
  • 16 2
 @wingguy: Nailed it.

@dotman: Regurgitated Facebook propaganda does not an argument make. You've had your buttons pushed by catchy little quips that appeal to freedom fetishists (who inevitably think that a country can exist in isolation and rule the waves and we won the war, etc.) and there's no way back for many like you, because you only see what you want to. I'm not bitter, I'm sad that it's so easy to dupe people who have the right to vote and sway the future of a country that was once respected. "Cesspool" - have you smelt your local river/beach recently? EU regs wouldn't have allowed that.
  • 3 3
 @Jprestidge:
Equally there is a constant barrage of abuse and blame laid against older generations because they voted for Brexit. What is conveniently overlooked is that 28% could not even be bothered to vote. As age dropped so did turnout yet as age dropped allegedly support for the EU increases.

People voted leave for a plethora of different reasons. The Remain campaign were also unbelievably arrogant in assuming a win was assured. When that started to look less certain, instead of pushing the benefits of remaining in the EU the just attacked leave.

Yes there has been a knock-on impact however based on my experience of shipping in both directions the overheads are not a arduous or costly as many would have us believe.
  • 3 0
 @NuckaMan: In Austria - as I assume in many other EU countries - the EU is always the scapegoat. And I think the EU is not very good at selling their benefits. You only see it if you don't have them anymore. Think of it this way: You have a problem and ask the major. He says: he can't do anything - it's a matter of the federal state. You go to the federal state representatives - they say: we can't do anything these are the rules of the government. But now with the EU it's always the EUs fault. Surely the EU countries are quite different so some rules are really bad in some countries. But very often we would have rules we blame the EU for in our countries anyways - with or without the EU. Since Brexit the discussion about leaving the EU in Austria is pretty much dead. You also have to consider: If you are better situated you might benefit more from the EU. Like a job at an international company, you travel, you buy online, etc. But if you struggle you might not have or might not see the benefits and you want someone to blame for your situation.
  • 2 10
flag dotman (Oct 21, 2023 at 4:30) (Below Threshold)
 @BenPea: I have no social media and it may surprise you but I have my own mind and my own opinions. I take it you've been watching the BBC then? The upper severn where I am is very clean, the large grayling stocks show that as they only thrive in clean water, I have family in southern Spain the dry river beds there are effectively open sewers. As witnessed by my own lying eyes I guess.....
  • 1 0
 @NuckaMan: www.youtube.com/watch?v=uovt1sC3rtM&t=17s
This man sums it up better than I ever could.
  • 1 2
 @threehats: and there was only a 72% voter turnout... and younger generations could not vote for something that will have a huge impact on their future.
  • 1 0
 @BenPea: “ You've had your buttons pushed by catchy little quips that appeal to freedom fetishists”

Right - and what freedom is that, exactly? The freedom to leave the EHCR as the leave agitators are now pushing for? It seems they confuse freedom for a government to do whatever it wants with freedom for the people living under that government - when in fact it is often the exact opposite.
  • 2 0
 @zoobab2: Having had dealings with the owner of Superstar I struggle to feel sorry for him. One of those business owners who think "customer" is a dirty word.
  • 1 0
 @commental: as I said above, the 150euro thing is also not an actual thing, he just made it up.

He’s currently making a nob of himself over on the Singletrackworld forum too, he does own some very nice machines though.
  • 6 2
 @mark-p: "People voted leave for a plethora of different reasons. The Remain campaign were also unbelievably arrogant in assuming a win was assured. When that started to look less certain, instead of pushing the benefits of remaining in the EU the just attacked leave."

Saying the Remain campaign just assumed they were going to win is nothing but an unsubstantiated opinion. What evidence can be cited to either support or disprove it?

As for attacking Leave - the Leave campaign told numerous outright lies. What opposing campaign that is actually trying to win would leave those unaddressed? The Leave campaign also sold numerous fantasies - utter fantasies as demonstrated by the post Brexit difficulties in getting any kind of trade deal at all - about what we would get or be able to do after we left. What kind of campaign that was actually trying to win would not address those things? If anything, it's the lack of genuine challenge or honest appraisal of Leave campaign statements from the established media that contributed to the situation we find ourselves in. Remember the Emily Maitliss statement on the illusion of balance? They had to ring 20 economists to find 1 that would come on and say Brexit would be good for the economy... yet when the show goes to air they present 1 voice on either side and pretend that's representative of the conversation.
  • 2 6
flag dotman (Oct 21, 2023 at 6:12) (Below Threshold)
 @wingguy: they present one voice on either side because that's how a debate works!
  • 8 1
 @carlitouk: All EU countries say they are democracies, but are they really ? And EU administration absolutely isn't Democracy since Van Der Leyen got elected by absolutely 0 EU citizens, yet manages to take decisions that heavily impacts all our lives. The purest form of Democracy would be to have every decision decided upon by referendum. Democracy in ancient Greek (root of the noun and concept) literally means people (demos) and command (kratos), so I am not sure where you get your idea that allowing the public to decide the future of a country isn't democracy.
  • 4 0
 @dotman: I think you have intentionally missed the point. Sure it's how a debate works, but it's not how an accurate and unbiased presentation of reality works.
  • 5 0
 @dotman: we do have that in the US, it's called the southeast and Midwest. With the way our senate and house of representatives works, you can have a tiny, unpopulated state insist on their beliefs and block all other legislation, and then take more in federal funding than they give. Then, you can have a much more populated state like Massachusetts who would like to see changes, but can't get anything through Congress, and then pay more in federal funding than they get.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.voanews.com/amp/which-us-states-get-more-than-they-give/4809228.html
  • 2 0
 @wingguy: an accurate and unbiased presentation of reality is more people voted to leave than stay, I understand you find it hard to accept
  • 4 1
 @Balgaroth: Please don't let us public vote on everything...like we know best...it would be a flipping disaster face:palm
  • 4 2
 @dotman: I love the 20mph limit. My village is a much nicer place to live now.
  • 4 3
 @dotman: again and again you illustrate the simplistic mindset that got this bullshit over the line. Anecdote not data. Feelings not facts. Fear over thinking. Pride and prejudice. Xenophobia in its purest sense. Exceptionalism. Romanticised self-regard over pragmatism. Look at the tools who did this, the dregs of which are still in charge now. Couldn't organise a pissup in a brewery. If you're happy with it all, you're pretty much clinically insane.
  • 4 5
 @BenPea: all you've gave me is word salad and vague insults. You're government hates you and so will the next
  • 3 6
 @dotman: Your. It's a problem of education. As you prove again and again. And stop projecting. I couldn't explain it any more simply. My words mean something. Yours are fantasy. What's next? EUSSR? 4th Reich?

And the BBC were as complicit in giving a voice to the bullshitters as anyone else, in the name of balance (read false equivalence). I can do this all day. It's been a while. Brexiters are having their pants pulled down lower and lower every day. Hubris is a great mask with which to cover embarassment.
Get a dictionary if you're (as in "you are") struggling in terms of comprehension.
  • 1 3
 @BenPea: Bad spelling and grammar is a gave on here. Oops, I mean a given.
  • 3 10
flag dotman (Oct 21, 2023 at 13:28) (Below Threshold)
 @BenPea: bravo. Back to the insults.
Make you feel warm and fuzzy inside does it? Narcissistic with a superiority complex I'd imagine? Don't appreciate a loss do you?
  • 6 2
 @dotman: he’s 100% right though isn’t he, it’s not a superiority complex it’s common sense.

As for him ‘losing’ - what have the ‘winners’ won?
  • 3 6
 @justanotherusername: 100% correct? In which context does one speak??
The winners won the contest hence the winners won eh
  • 2 1
 @dotman: but what was their prize, what did they win other than the term ‘winner’?
  • 4 5
 @dotman: Warm and fuzzy? No I'm pissed off that you can't see past you own simple nose and think ruining a country's trade links, cooperative agreements and standing on the world stage is a victory. It's not about personal egos FYI. It's about the welfare of a nation's population. The UK is only 60% food self sufficient. Was it a good idea to erect trade barriers with those who feed you? To screw imports and export? To hinder the free movement of British citizens, businesses and performers across Europe? To prevent people from being able to retire to their home in Spain? Simple questions. The answer is no and will always be. I have no beef with you, but you were fooled and you are too proud to admit it. Pride is the worst. It's a dead end.
  • 6 1
 @BenPea: see I don’t agree with that - I do have beef with people like him now, people conned (or not, maybe just hard of thinking or part of the small group of people who did stand to gain) still taking nonsense about ‘remoaners’ or being bad losers, ‘we wun don’t ya gerriiiiit?’

And what did he win? The ability to say he won, that’s it, it’s like betting somebody you could shit yourself and then doing it to prove you can - what a prize.
  • 4 4
 @justanotherusername: Good summation. "Hurrah! School trips to and from continental Europe cancelled! Take that Brussels! Up yours Delors!" Everybody lost, EU and UK alike, but Britain lost harder.
  • 3 3
 @wingguy: wasn't that the economist who said that Brexit would be great but would also involve the small matter of destroying UK manufacturing and agriculture?
  • 3 10
flag dotman (Oct 21, 2023 at 23:41) (Below Threshold)
 @BenPea: wow maybe get a room you guys??? Im watching the sun rise over the desolated ruins of which were once thriving welsh hill farms. Obviously my lying eyes can't of seen the £450k fendt forager just passing by because my leaned betters from across the seas have told me that agriculture here is dead.
I'm self employed in construction and I can't take on any more work for three years it's that busy out there. Nothings changed were doing just fine and yes I only think about myself, because nobody else does.
  • 2 0
 @Balgaroth: Bike24 is owned by Wiggle, beware. If Bike24/CRC/Probikeshop/Bikester dissapear, there's gonna be a Big hole in the European online cycling market, ready to be taken by germans.
  • 3 0
 @Balgaroth: the Council of Ministers is also problematic, as Ministers are becoming legislators, while being part of the executive. I stopper counting the number of EU laws where they have a direct interest (and confluct of interest) the last one is the chat control, where interior ministers wants more power for themselves.
  • 2 1
 @NuckaMan: In EU there are two kind of countries... those Cole understand they are small, and those who don't understand and think they are big... UK, Germany, France don't understand how small they... but among them only the English people did the stupid thing to leave the union...
  • 5 1
 @BenPea: The world is f*cked because of globalism and its retreat, and the importation peoples to countries that harbor not the same views or values, and make opportunity through human rights and civil liberties of our soft liberal underbellies. What's coming will harden all resolves, but much much pain first. .
  • 4 4
 @threehats: I am certain the Russians meddled in this campaign as they have done in American politics. Anything to undermine the West!
  • 5 1
 @dotman: if you want to talk about democracy in EU, please do explain how did you vote to elect last three prime ministers in UK? I couldn't find the results anywhere. Please explain how democratic it is when a party that gets around 35% of popular vote gets more than half of seats in parliament?
Also, how was the latest king elected?

It's ironic when British person complains about the lack of democracy outside of their own country. Pointing out how their opinion is their own is also funny as f*ck, when those opinions are exactly the same as bullshit that was debunked ages ago that stays alive only because stupid people keep posting them on the internet
  • 2 5
 @pooceq: how can you debunk my opinions when I've given none, and again with the ire and the insults? Seems eu enthusiasts love a good strop.
Pick yer toys up kiddo
  • 2 4
 @dotman: opinion that top jobs in EU are unelected and hence no democracy.

The fact is that indirectly elected is still elected. Only a moron would want to vote on everything themselves, especially in an organisation like an EU. That's MEPs are for.
  • 5 2
 @pooceq: not my opinions, facts!
And again with the insults?
How's the blood pressure I see you're a larger gentleman, careful with that anger.
  • 1 4
 @dotman: Now you're body shaming? You should be ashamed of yourself.
  • 1 1
 @BenPea: Exactly, without EU subsidies the English small farms model is history... small farmers will lose their business to big agribusinesses and become employees at best... and big agribusinesses will do what they know best, they will produce cheap junk food...
  • 2 2
 @Red-October: is it really?? Have you got boots on the ground then? I do work for many farmers, close personal friends, don't you worry about them they're doing just dandy.
Oh and Carlito, look at his profile he "body shames" himself......
  • 1 0
 @dotman: Yep, they're doing great... just like the bike industry... www.arc2020.eu/brexit-bites-uk-farmers-after-cap
  • 1 0
 @dotman:
I'm interested in exactly where in the upper Severn you live? Postcode, street and number would be great!
  • 2 0
 @Red-October: lovely read that.
I'm speaking about actual people I actually know.
That's how I form my opinions.
  • 1 1
 @HPdeskjet3630: newtown mate.
Message me when you get here.
  • 2 0
 @dotman: That is informal fallacy, my friend, based on anecdotal evidence...
  • 1 3
 @Red-October: actual evidence from actual people is the only evidence.
Don't believe everything you read.
  • 1 0
 @dotman: You can't have it both ways, that how lefties work. Either you only work in terms of anecdotal evidence, in which case yes some farmers do well despite overall shitshow but then you should also consider that immigration is a blessing for your country since some immigrants take jobs that nobody applied for, some do great work, behaves well, integrate and want to support our cultures and ways of life. Or you work by larges masses in which case, UK economy is doing shit overall( despite some people doing well) and immigration bring a lot of negatives like driving the wages down, bringing violence and religious extremism. But double standard where you pick whichever method whenever it suits you to push your agenda is fallacious at best, properly dishonest if you ask me. Tends to be French lefties methods, dunno about UK but if you have 2 brains cells and prefer reality rather than ideology you can't support such method of argumentation.
  • 5 0
 @Red-October: Don't be under the misapprehension that this is any kind of debate. It's a waste of time. The arguments made on the other side remind me of those who claim global heating is a myth because they were a bit chilly this morning. We're almost in flat earth territory.
The referendum was like asking your dog what type of washing machine you should buy. The answer would be the one made out of peanut butter.
Meanwhile, Brexit has cost the UK economy and population many many billions since 2016. Farage and his pals made a mint because of the pound crashing. The NHS has 100,000 vacancies, exacerby by an exodus of qualified EU citizens who feel unwanted. But it's all fine because a welshman saw some wildlife the other day and is making some coin. Ignorance is bliss. Funny how all the rEsEArcH these people do rarely leads to any kind of intellectual enlightenment. Almost like they're guided by confirmation bias, rather than a quest for stone cold information.
@dotman: you're the only one arguing in bad faith here. At least show some respect to people who are trying to explain things to you about the bigger picture, even if they succumb to the temptation to be rude in frustration at your disingenuous attitude and closed mindedness. You're not alone in having this mindset because it's a wider psychological phenomenon, like all conspiracy theory-led movements.
  • 1 0
 @dotman: That means you can use the n word too then mate Wink /sarcasm
  • 3 1
 @Balgaroth: No, it's just data and statistics. Nothing to do with being a lefty. Immigration brings more money to western economies than it costs. Foreigners treat our sick and wipe the arses of the old. Religious extremism is exaggerated by racists to justify their prejudices. The vast majority of terrorist atrocities in the States are perpetrated by white right wing extremists. It's just facts.
And immigration is also the rebound effect of colonialism. Our countries are wealthy because those resources have been plundered from the rest of the world over centuries. What you reap is what you sow. Can't have it both ways, as you say.
I know we're kind of agreeing, but I thought I'd answer a couple of points.
  • 1 0
 @BenPea: now, closed minded?
You have paid no heed to anything I have said, closed mind?
You have relied on statistics and reports written by others, possibly with their own agendas, possibly not. How can you tell?
I know not where you call home, so therefore couldn't possibly form any kind of opinion of what goes on there.
So I don't.
You may call me ignorant, uneducated, undoctrinated; I care not a jot.
I have me and mine, my own niche in life which pleases me.
What other people do, none of my business so I keep my nose out.
You can't possibly expect me to not believe what I can see but believe you instead?
  • 1 1
 @Balgaroth: my life is reality, actual reality I can see and touch.
Who brought up immigration, certainly not I?
They do seem quite keen to get the hell out of France mind....
Maybe our rain soaked basket case of an island isn't so bad after all?
  • 1 1
 @BenPea: Not sure you want to go down the statistics route really as there as loads of other statistics that can be taken into consideration like % of foreign people filling up prisons, committing violence, rapes, etc and in the last 2 decades all terrorist attacks have been perpetrated by Islamists in France, of whom most were either illegals or descendants. And the argument about Colonialism could be valid only if all immigration was from former colonies (it isn't), and if countries that don't have colonialism in their history (unlike France and UK) were immune to the problem but Sweden, Danemark, Germany are prime examples that negates your hypothesis. Also many European countries didn't go invading and abusing countries on the African continent and are pretty successful so the theory that Colonial countries became powerfull due to pillaging of African countries doesn't hold either, some people even consider that it costed more to colonial Empire to develop local infrastructures and keep hold of the places than it actually brought back in the balance. As always, learning and considering both side of the fence is the only way to get close to what reality might be but too many people only want to read about stuff that confirm their ideology.
@dotman I only bring immigration in the debate because from what I heard it was another strong argument for the people who voted for Brexit, so taking it out of the discussion to explain why Brexit happened seems strange to me.
  • 2 0
 @Balgaroth @dotman : jesus christ lads, give it a rest
  • 2 1
 @dotman: I get where you're coming from, but then why ask people to vote on a complex issue with vast implications if they will only view it from rheir own narroz perspective, which does not reflect the wider picture. The whole of Brexit was a total accident. Johnson rode that tiger as a way of boosting his own narcissistic ambitions. He was only supposed to blow the bloody doors off, not win the bloody referendum. There was no plan, because to actually plan something so mad (unless you are working for Putin or US big pharma/health insurance) would be impossible.
Reports written by the OBR for e.g.? You know, the body responsible for guiding govt economic policy and hopefully preventing it from from f*cking things up horrendously as Truss and Kwarteng did last year?
Brexit was a Trojan horse that allowed an ultra elite to separate Britain from the herd and suck it dry. And a complex mess that has served nobody but a few high-level gamblers and those who the few who have benefited from wage inflation. The coffers of the nation and the OVERALL health and wellbeing of the population have got worse. I'm glad you're ok though, but that's irrelevant to the wider discussion.

obr.uk/box/how-are-our-brexit-forecasting-assumptions-performing

Just read the top three points. It's pretty clear. Or stick your fingers in your ears and sing lalala. Up to you.
  • 2 1
 @dotman: It's also a myth that everyone wants to come to the UK, which is way down the ranking of countries in terms of taking in refugees. Again, facts over feelings please.

@Balgaroth: fair points, but the points we both make can all be true at the same time. And "some people consider" is not particularly powerful either. You seem fixated on violence and rape by foreigners (define "foreigner". These are obviously right-wing media tropes designed to stick in people's minds. Regular sensationalism we see on the front pages of UK papers owned by billionaires who want to influence a nation but pay no tax in the country. I wonder who they would prefer to have in power?
  • 1 2
 @BenPea: the uk economy has grown faster since lockdown than both France and Germany.
Go outside now and again, take a deep breath and take it all in.....
The wheels are still attached, the sky's not fallen.
  • 1 1
 @BenPea: oh and
Rhier and narroz
Happens to us all.
No need to question academic prowess.
  • 2 1
 @dotman: That's because it fell much further in 2020. So its rise is relative to a lower starting point. Which is irrelevant anyway because it would have grown faster without Brexit. To state this is a Brexit benefit is nuts. And, as the OBR states, the full effects of Brexit haven't been felt yet. No imports are being checked yet. The regulation is being postposed again and again because it is virtually unworkable. The ports will collapse. Food standards will drop, because of this and the influx of cheap hormone-filled meat from the Antipodes. The country is run by chancers who flushed any remaining sense out of their party the minute they took control. Again, I'm glad you're fine.
  • 2 0
 @BenPea: Those are "right" side arguments, like I said I like to listen to all sides to try to get a better understanding of things. I just double checked and in France 25% are of foreign nationallity, meaning they don't hold a French passport. I am not bothered to check what the percentage is including bi-national people and I've heard some politicians also doing statistics using first names and family names (since ethnic statistics are forbidden in France, that's a proxi I guess) which brought the number stupidly high (in the realms of 80% if I remember correctly). But then you can argue that those people are there not because of nationality and origins but because of poor/violent/abused up-bringing which surely doesn't help the situation. But I think we agree anyway, things are far more complex than either side wants their minions to believe, and trying to approach the truth is very complex with media filtration bubbles, confirmation bias and so on. Right let's go ride lads, politics is just an illusion anyway not like we have real power as citizens anyway lol.
  • 2 2
 @BenPea: my meat comes from a five mile radius, I can put a face to it.
Choose where you live.
You sound a joy, so upbeat.
Bet you're a blast at parties
  • 3 1
 @dotman: When you start making stuff up that other people didn’t say it’s really a clear admission that you’re unable to address anything that has been said.
  • 1 1
 @wingguy: example?
  • 6 1
 @dotman: I give up. You clearly don't give a shit about anyone but yourself.
  • 2 1
 @BenPea: I did point that out a day ago.
If you put others before you and yours then you're either a Saint or a liar.
  • 3 0
 @dotman: Ok, so what was the point of any of this? Just write your autobiography.

I'm super f*cking fun at parties by the way. I'm not having that. Also, conflating ignorance and being fun is one of things that allows people to be manipulated.
  • 1 2
 @BenPea: I have no idea what kicked it off?
I'll pop you an invite to the book launch,
Diaries of a selfish Welsh man!
See how strong your party game is then...
  • 1 0
 @fartymarty: unless your a tory MP with a finger in all sorts of pies
  • 3 1
 @dotman: example.

Sorry, I misread something. I thought you said 'hard to understand' when it was actually 'hard to accept'. My mistake.

Still, it was just a deflection from what was being said. When the criticism of a campaign is that it was full of outright lies, contradictions and fantastical promises that couldn't possibly be fulfilled, the comeback of 'yeah but it won' doesn't address any of those points. In fact it just goes to show how important it is to recognise and analyse the mendacity of the Leave campaign and its media supporters to know how better to counteract similar tactics in future.
  • 1 2
 @wingguy: good god not again?? All the broadsheets supported remain.
Osborne, Obama, carney, Cameron.
All lied.
All the doom.
Didn't happen.
I made up my own mind.
One less level of bureaucracy for me.
I don't like being told how to think.
So stop it
  • 3 1
 @dotman: Nigel told you how to think and he told you what you wanted to hear, you aren’t the free thinker you might fantasise yourself as being.
  • 1 2
 @justanotherusername: f*ck me your back too?
Pity your dad didn't fancy the back door eh?
  • 3 1
 @dotman: You seem to have f*cking and back doors on the brain my man, more thoughts you struggle to make sense of?
  • 1 0
 @justanotherusername: best ask Nigel, I can't think for myself.
  • 2 1
 @dotman: "All the broadsheets supported remain."

Err, ok now that is something you've just made up. The Telegraph, Sunday Telegraph and Sunday Times all officially supported Brexit as their editorial position, along with the two most read newspapers in the country.

Seems like the Leave campaign was so good at telling you what to think they managed it without you even realising who they were.
  • 1 2
 @wingguy: it was a guess, I don't read newspapers and I really don't care.
What is wrong with you?
No cwtchs from mam?
Bullied I bet.
Not enough.
I'd of thrashed you like a hire car.
Twll dyn pob saes.
  • 3 1
 @dotman: you would have ‘thrashed me’? - haha - there we go again with those repressed thoughts man.

Let yourself live, come clean with the real you, it’s no wonder you were angry enough to vote with Nige.
  • 1 1
 @wingguy: youtu.be/ZRc0by2vZ7k?feature=shared

I don't think I need to add anything else.
  • 1 2
 @justanotherusername: wasn't a reply to you, I'd left you at cutie.
Why are you so desperate for me to listen to you?
Unloved?
Not surprised.
  • 1 2
 @BenPea: no you don't.
So off you scuttle.
  • 1 0
 @dotman: soz, got excited as you were talking like a pervert again.

Still cute.
  • 1 1
 @dotman: Baaahahahaha, mate just how insecure are you that you have to go down that road instead of admitting you said something wrong?

You called me out on a mistake earlier and what happened? I immediately acknowledged it and apologised, because I'm a grown man without any major psychological difficulties. So just what the heck is going on with you?
  • 1 2
 @wingguy: christ.
I bet you're a feeble man.
Ten stone soaking wet.
Pick pick picking away on the Web.
Trying to force your opinions on folk.
Can't accept differences of opinion.
Bet you wouldn't speak stood in front of me.
Wet leftie jellyfish.
  • 2 0
 @dotman: you are visualising a 10 stone soaking wet man, aren't you?

Essentially what I gain from this long exchange is that you are aren't being truthful with yourself about your sexual preference and also that you are a bit of a pervert and its why you are a bit of an angry breixity, gammony type.

Cute.
  • 3 0
 @dotman: Is this the worlds worst stand up routine? You’re saying that I can’t handle a difference of opinion while at the same time threatening to beat me up, calling me a wimp and saying my mum never loved me... just because I pointed out that you misremembered what some newspapers said seven years ago. You do see the irony, don’t you?

By the way - very telling that you’re only happy talking tough because you think I’m smaller than you. Great image of yourself you’re sending out there.
  • 1 2
 @wingguy: medium size frames.
Small man.
In many ways
  • 1 2
 @justanotherusername: angry?
I'm more than happy in my life like I've pointed out repeatedly.
Your obviously another wet socialist.
Weak and feeble.
Vegan?
Definitely a nonce.
Careful with your hard drive.
  • 2 0
 @dotman: ‘wet socialist’ - you are obsessed.

Pervert.
  • 3 0
 @dotman: Errr, so in your mind someone would have to upsize their frame after going to the gym for 6 months or….?

Speaking of small, you’ve absolutely flipped your lid because I’ve pointed out that you were factually wrong about a single statement. C’mon man, why are you doing this to yourself?
  • 2 0
 @wingguy: he’s just horny.
  • 1 2
 @wingguy: quite the gym that makes you taller.
Strange conclusion to come to.
Absolutely flipped my lid!
Oh the drama.
  • 4 0
 @dotman: quite the gym that makes you taller.

Exactly my point. Why would my frame size mean I’m a ten stone weakling? It was a very silly thing for you to say, wasn’t it

And yes, flipped your lid. When you’ve calmed down, or slept it off, or whatever is going on with you, come back and have a look at the exhibition you’ve made of yourself simply because I pointed out you were wrong about what some newspapers said about Brexit. If you’re lucky, you might come to some kind of realisation.
  • 1 2
 @wingguy: you're short and fat then.
Still weak.
Pick pick picking away with these other dicks.
Safety in numbers for the feeble.
Twll dyn bob says.
  • 3 0
 @dotman: Haha, brilliant, so no realisation yet, you’re just going to keep digging. Don’t you think it’s obvious that you’re so desperate to sound like a hard man on the internet because it’s the only place you can get away with it?
  • 3 0
 @wingguy: can you two stop arguing please
  • 50 1
 Geez that didn't take long....as an old NP dealer, I can tell you the people working for NP and riding for NP are about as good as they come. I pray that the company will come out of this in a way they all can continue in their current roles.
  • 19 1
 This - UK nukeproof people are a top bunch.
  • 3 0
 I love my Nukeproof. I must have bought bikes from more than a dozen different brands (inc Yeti, SC, Trek, and Spesh), and I can confidently say the Nukeproof has been the best purchase I’ve made (followed by Commencal and Transition).
  • 9 1
 Used to work for CRC, and can further confirm. Top to bottom, the Nukeproof team are 1st class. Really hope all works out for them and the wider WCRC team. Great, great people.
  • 5 1
 Good to hear some positivity in these shitty comments sections for once!
  • 1 0
 This is a huge bummer. Nukeproof stuff has always been good quality and great value for me and it seems like the brand really cared about mountain biking especially racing. Hope everyone lands on their feet.
  • 1 0
 @obliquemountain: Yep they always seem like a good crew, and byuilt a good business up over time. Yes they had big investment last few years which really progressed the bikes, but would be a shame to see them go. Very grassroots level support for many riders seemed to be a big deal to them.
  • 45 0
 Rubbish website redesign this year plus poor stock and range for a long time.They haven't been my goto for many years.
  • 8 0
 Curious, who are your go-tos? The best prior to brexit were bike-components.de and bike-discount.de. However, both seem to have high minimum order values for UK customers now. (Thanks Brexshit)
  • 5 0
 @Will762: Whoever appears in the url when searching and is cheapest & instock to be honest, but usually biketart, swinnerton, merlin, slam69 have been my main shops this season.
  • 4 0
 @ThatEbikeGuy: Yeah, fair. I've found Biketart pretty slow tbh. Merlin are good tho.
  • 1 0
 @Will762: Is Merlin still good in UK? For the US, Jenson and Thunder Mountain are the best now IMO.
  • 3 0
 @Will762: I’ve bought a lot from Tredz, which despite their affiliation with Halfrauds, has good stock and good customer service
  • 27 0
 My issue with CRC and Wiggle has always been that they never seem to have anything you want actually in stock. Everything is priced well, their site is easy to use but if they don't actually have the product on hand, why would I buy from them? Quite a shame to see them on the verge of collapse but not surprised.
  • 1 0
 @metsrangers35: Well - except for the fact that the financial health of Wiggle right now has next to nothing to do with the sales performance of Wiggle.
  • 1 0
 @wingguy: I didn’t say it did. I was just agreeing that they never have anything in stock of the stuff you want to buy.
  • 24 1
 Question is when will Rene Benko's house of cards will fall down altogether.
  • 5 0
 well, at least he didn't buy pinkbike
  • 2 0
 Looking at the seeming endless list of companies he had dumped and caused to fold one questions how long he can continue. Sadly as long as he keeps making money then he does not care. His only interest is money, lots of it at the expense of everyone else.
  • 1 0
 A Vulture capitalist probably.
  • 20 0
 just google Rene Benko, read a bit about him or just lask at a picture. its really one person behind this shitshow thats way bigger than this. sports is just one business branch. ruthless upstart investor feeling the heyyears slipping away
  • 1 0
 I don't think so. Usually, he comes out on top when he fails yet another company. Not that this is a good thing, but hey...
  • 13 0
 CRC service has been shit lately. They say high inventory but a lot of products are not in stock. For several times I went to CRC to buy stuff and had to look elsewhere. I remember when I could find anything Hope related on their website. Now you struggle to find hubs.
  • 1 0
 Bought a set of Hayes dominions from crc only to find out later they don't stock brakepads or any other kind of spares for them.
  • 4 3
 Which is wierd because Hotlines (Owned by the same people) are the Hayes distributor for the UK.
  • 4 0
 @benpinnick: except, that they aren't any more. All Hayes group now through Hayes Germany direct. Hopefully this means we can start stocking Manitou at some point, wouldn't touch them through Hotlines due to lack of service spares. Same for the brakes
  • 14 0
 According to other sites Fraiser group (sportsdirect) is looking like they'll buy CRC/wiggle. Which probably isn't good news for most people involved
  • 13 0
 That is dog shit horrendous news if true.
  • 2 1
 @justanotherusername: Why? I've never heard of a Fraiser group before.
  • 3 2
 @pyromaniac: google Mike Ashley - he’s a huge retail business man in the UK, saved many companies intact, good at what he does, purchased Evans cycles not long ago but he is good at box shifting, not sure he’s a great fit for CRC, kiss goodbye to product development and community involvement.
  • 6 0
 Or the fireplaces if Ashley decides to have a power drinking session
  • 7 1
 @justanotherusername: did you not see what Ashley did to nufc? He's the saviour of nobody
  • 5 1
 @dotman: he’s saved / took over companies and therefore peoples jobs, he’s keeping some retail alive in the real world shop environment.

He has also done a shit load of bad - you miss my comment where I said it would be dog shit horrendous if it happened?
  • 7 1
 @justanotherusername: I saw the name Mike Ashley and that was enough for me sorry buddy, he ran my beloved nufc into the ground and I despise him for that!
  • 15 1
 Evans has gone to shit since the acquisition. Ashley's businesses treat employees like subhumans. I wouldn't call using desperate people as slaves on zero hour contracts "saving jobs" tbh. It might help his tory mates inflate employment stats but that's about it.
  • 3 4
 @bananowy: I don’t disagree with much of that but your personal views don’t change fact, if he didn’t provide the jobs someone would need to, at the moment on the high street who is it?
  • 16 0
 @pyromaniac: He's a bottom feeder. If I remember correctly when he bought Evans he laid off the staff and offered them their jobs back at a much lower salary. The BBC even did an investigation into how he runs his sport direct business because of the sheer number of ambulance call outs to their warehouse in a year
  • 4 0
 Ugh. Mike Ashley is shit show. Get ready for the quality of the in house products to fall apart.
  • 5 0
 @93EXCivic: If he keeps NP and Vitus I'd expect them to go to catalogue frames and good luck on any warranty support
  • 4 0
 @briain: this - he will have no interest in engineering or product development / design.
  • 3 1
 @dotman: Ashley sorted out NCFC they were shit he paid £134 mill sold for 305 mill and look how good they doing now everyone was a winner hahahahahahaha
  • 2 0
 @dotman: But most Prem clubs run at a loss and surely he was just trying to balanced the books? He kept you afloat long enough to be rescued by Saudi oil so bravo!
  • 1 1
 @BMXrad: did he buy Newport County too?
  • 4 1
 @jimmythehat: nobody buys a football club and expects to make money, he basically just asset stripped it
  • 1 1
 @justanotherusername:
He is a very smart businessman and his organisation is very efficient in "saving" companies that are in trouble. If you look at Evans you will find it is a completely separate entity with in his group. The debt and everything to do with it is nicely packaged up to ensure it can be off loaded with minimal impact on his wealth and empire.
Take Sports Direct and the returns policy - you can only get a credit note.
  • 1 0
 @mark-p: is that legal ?
  • 12 0
 The signa group is owned by an Austrian investor and other parts of it have been struggling lately. No real interest in the companies and people behind it but rather looking out to maximize profit, rather ruthless. Really sad.
  • 18 0
 Private equity literally fucks up everything it touches with its greedy throbbing tendrils. Late stage capitalist greed at its finest.
  • 15 0
 Thank god this time it's an Austrian living in Austria who f's everything up.
  • 9 0
 Did Benko fail to enter an art school too?
  • 4 0
 @dustyvoid: he failed regular school as far as I know.
  • 11 0
 This is very sad to see. I used to work there from the early days, and can honestly say it was a great place to work. Probably about 80% of the people working there were all cyclists, all passionate about the sport. I really feel for anyone I know who is still there, fingers crossed they get something sorted out.
That all started to change once it was sold off and the Wiggle takeover (deffo wasn't a merger) happened. No amount of corporate branding can replace the people who were lost after that. Genuinely shocked at how they managed to take something so good and turn it into what has happened now.
  • 11 0
 Hotlines distribution Fahrrad.de Probikeshop Bikester... All part of the same company. This is proper collapsing house of cards stuff.
  • 3 0
 I wonder why is there no mention of the other guys like probikeshop and bikester, not involved somehow?
  • 3 0
 @justanotherusername: Dunno mate
The ramifications are far more widespread than just the UK Co's.
  • 7 0
 @justanotherusername: here's a list of other affected stores. Don't know if its a full list.

www.mtb-news.de/news/fahrrad-de-insolvenz
  • 2 0
 @Muckal: wow, that is a shit load of companies
  • 2 0
 There is a message on Bikester saying they don't take return anymore seems like the beginning of the end
  • 1 0
 So that's why Probikeshop is losing momentum to...used to be my go-to store,lately I even forget about it.
  • 2 0
 It's about 80 online shops affected by this (on the SIGNA site they even mentioned 100 shops), although I wasn't able to find a complete list yet.
  • 12 0
 No way…I switched from riding a Guerrilla Gravity to a Vitus a month ago.
  • 48 4
 Maybe you should switch to an ebike now so those will go away too.
  • 10 0
 As a Canadian, Jenson and local sites became cheaper. Taxes and duty etc. became really bad on CRC years ago. During the glory days their shimano and schwalbe prices couldn't be beat.
  • 11 0
 Well that's a big dominoe to fall. Good luck to anyone who's job is at risk.
  • 9 0
 Hope Nukeproof and Vitus Survive. Vitus offers a really good bike for the money, and the people I met at their traveling booth were rad. And my warranty...
  • 7 0
 Never thought I'd see the day CRC closes. 10-15 years ago the used to be the goat. The pricing was great and the international shipping was great (I lived in NZ at the time).
Then half the products I wanted to buy were geo blocked, Then they were acquired by wiggle and things went downhill from there.
Now the website sucks, Nothing is in stock, the pricing is not competitive and the shipping is outrageous. I haven't purchased anything from them in a long time.
  • 10 1
 this is probably because the CRC website doesnt work on my work PC for some reason
  • 6 0
 Yeah and because they stopped selling Shimano to NZ customers
  • 10 1
 @dkendy1: Brands really need to stop this whole geo restriction thing, Often shimano has certain things out of stock for ages.. cant buy overseas because of the restriction... cool either dont buy that part as shimano or go to aliexpress, then shimano lose out even more... makes no sense.

Recently I tried to get some Fox float x spacers, none in country and sites wont ship to nz untill i found some in italy who dont care and sent them to me... Im not waiting untill january for NZ stock, what rubbish.
  • 1 0
 @HeatedRotor: I know right, two summers ago I had 3 bikes with requirements for Saint pads in my preferred metal fin. What a pain in the ass that was. For something like spacers I’d hit up marketplace on nz mtb sales.
O.P.P.(arts box). I’ve got some of those
  • 1 0
 @dkendy1: I've got a terrible thing for buying everything new, except for a few things like my boat.
NZ importers do my head in, they only bring in what they want and nothing more..
like the hope people... bring in everything but the best brakes on the market(imo), absolutely mind boggling.
I also think NZ has the worst middleman situation... It feels like it goes through 3-4 mark ups before you get your product
  • 10 5
 Running theme for those small guys that got too excited during covid and took on too much debt or investor money - I can’t help but think the selling off of nukeproof pedals, stems etc and other brands by CRC at manufacturing cost has already damaged some smaller brands too.

A few examples of small UK companies seemingly ‘not good’ or gone:

Planet X - bought out after administration, how long will it run?

Stanton - wrote off £700k of investor money and now stays afloat by buying stock back from someone who keeps it in their garage.

Unite Components, recently moved out of their new premises back to the company that part owns them, socials are dead, no communication and staff look to be gone.

Pembree - £300k investment from guy farrant formerly of Whyte bikes the year previous (boom time) and now a further £30k this year put onto the company to seeming keep the doors open?

Wheels coming off, only the real big boys will benefit.
  • 15 0
 Small Guys? They dont come much bigger than WiggleCRC in their global reach and market share.
  • 5 0
 @chillescarpe: yea I worded that badly - I kind of meant the smaller guys will get damaged as collateral from this CRC issue, companies likely not already in great financial condition.
  • 5 3
 @justanotherusername: 100% people do not realise just how much this company does for the sport. The Athletes they sponsor, events they provide money to, the deals they bring for customers, and the brands they invest in as start ups
  • 5 2
 @chillescarpe: completely agree - it’s not just a shop, it’s several brands of bikes and components, a distribution company, online retail, multiple warehouses, offices etc, staff from design / manufacture to warehouse and logistics, sponsorship and involvement etc.

I don’t think they will disappear, but if they do the knock on effect will be huge, both short term for those that compete who will have to weather months of sales prices and long term for the industry that was supported by them.
  • 10 2
 @chillescarpe: Nearly all of the non-natural trail network in Northern Ireland was created and maintained by CRC. They have been huge for the sport locally and we have the only physical shop here in Belfast too.

I truly hope the NP and Vitus brands can be saved.
  • 5 2
 @oldblokeonabike: Youre right, they have invested in the trail networks, teams, athletes, start up companies, local employment, and have boosted the UK distributors in market share. Not to mention delivered goods to countries that struggled with LBS, literally keeping the wheels turning. Credit where it is due
  • 3 0
 I bought something from unite the other week. No issues
  • 1 2
 @Pabsm80: where did I say there would be issues getting product from them?

I stated they seemed to have stopped updating social media, have taken on hundreds of thousands of debt and moved out of their premises back to the old premises owned by an investor presumably to save money, and are running a seemingly permanent sale - things are obviously financially strained there.
  • 2 1
 Unites components ‘parent’ company is literally that as it was a spin off from his dad’s engineering company as far as I’m aware.

Still see their vehicles about.
  • 2 0
 @cypher74: the unit was open last time I looked? I see the van at makefast last week but like you say that's not odd
  • 2 0
 @justanotherusername: you had them in a list of "seemingly "not good" or gone"

They don't appear to be either and I evidence that with what I said.

I am sure when your business is struggling you would appreciate someone highlighting concerns whether they are legitimate/in good faith or not.
  • 2 0
 @cypher74: the dads small engineering company sold to makefast, it’s not the dads company now and is part of their group.

unite operated here until moving to its own premises two years ago, it’s since moved back to the shared premises makefast occupy, presumably to aid cash flow - makefast own 20% of unite as it acted as guarantor for its loans.

By ‘not good’ I mean clear financial tightening, the accounts on companies house show this and the premises move, all available online, im making no claim that unite are going out of business or won’t provide product at all but public info is public info.
  • 1 0
 @justanotherusername: chill out, you’re obviously more up-to date than I, but then I haven’t seen Andy or his dad for quite a few years.
  • 1 0
 My experiences with Unite showed them to be shoddy ‘engineers’ with little to no knowledge of their products. A shame as their stems and chainrings looked nice, but the pedals were dog shit with horrible tolerances. Whoever was running their customer service was very quick to play the ‘user error’ card without explaining how the user was in error, how the user should be using them (torque specs, etc), and despite systematically obtained evidence that there was an ongoing manufacturing problem.
  • 6 0
 All stared in a mid terrace shop 15 miles from me, Ironically if had stayed in Northern Ireland it should of still been able to sell into EU. Cant blame original owners for selling up as they retired with a mega payout.
  • 5 0
 Nukeproof/Vitus/Hotlines in the US had an awesome team and were doing great things. They got barely any notice they were getting shut down, sad to see such an awesome group lose their jobs Frown The US CEO posted on LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7121056597061107712?updateEntityUrn=urn%3Ali%3Afs_feedUpdate%3A%28V2%2Curn%3Ali%3Aactivity%3A7121056597061107712%29
  • 2 0
 Well, I guess a new Nukeproof is out of the question. I was really, really looking at the mixed wheel Mega.
  • 4 0
 In this post, there is mention of the employees. One of the employees is Sydney Dowd. She helped me back in the spring as I was bike shopping for my son. She was top notch. I am sure she not the only great employee there. Hopefully these folks can find new meaningful jobs soon.
  • 6 1
 Read the original article, now also read the update. Is it acceptable to admit that even though I understand how reach and stack are defined and measured, I probably don't understand half of what's being said in the article? What I need to know is, will CRC, Nukeproof and Vitus continue as brands, will they disappear or will they only stop the North American operations?
  • 8 3
 As cold as it sounds, I truly don't feel sorry for ANY company in the mountain bike industry. The fact that companies in this industry make hundreds of millions of dollars a year and still can't manage to stay afloat — even after the cash-grab during the pandemic this industry fabricated, citing "supply chain issues" while companies saw record profits.

There's skate brands (your favorite culture to jock) who have been around for several decades and they barely scratch a couple hundred thousand dollars a year, yet they manage to stay in business and pay their teams a fair wage.

I don't feel sorry for millionaires that lose money. I feel bad for the people they screw on their way out.
  • 5 1
 While this is undoubtedly bad news, I do have some hope for the future. For sure, we're in for some rough times, but hopefully the tide of random investment companies buying into profitable bike businesses is turning and we will see a future industry where the people who run bike businesses do so because they're invested in- bikes. Maybe that's overly optimistic, but I'll take a smaller, less profitable industry with even an iota of actual passion for the sport over big business decisions any day.
  • 4 0
 It likely came down to not meeting shareholder goals. Usually they want exceptional growth, like 15-20% growth per quarter. However, anyone with a head connected to their body would know that once the covid non-bike riders were out of the market, it would be back to around the pre-pandemic level, based on 2019 sales figures. I mean, smart companies should have explained that to investors and companies should have completely expected it. BTW, still seeing high end 2020-2021 bikes for sale with less then 10 rides on them in my local used bike listings. Any company that seeked out investors during Covid did a misjustice to that investor.
  • 5 0
 I think this has little to do with bicycles and Signas core business of cooperate property. There was something about overvalued assets and investors have pulled their cash because of it
  • 2 0
 they had negative EBITDA for years now and last year was blown out to losing $500M over the year...at some point money dries up
  • 3 0
 @briain: this is quite possible. it sounds to me like the bike companies were in trouble for sure but their lifeline from Signa has been pulled because they have bigger problem brewing elsewhere in their company. these guys have fires burning all over the business and are having to chose which fires to put out and which will be left to crash and burn. CRC looks like it's going down in flames.
  • 1 0
 @darlos-finest-son: yeah, I think so. There getting to have to sell off anything thats worth anything
  • 4 0
 the press release notes that the company has seen some market improvements in this time the demand for product remains "significantly below 2022 and pre-pandemic levels."

Well....of course? Sometime I read something and it really makes me realize that the people who run the world (through finance, mostly) have nowhere near the expertise that you sort of assume they have.
  • 2 1
 and if they have high inventory... hmm... let me think... what could they do to fix that??? Maybe put on a big sale?
  • 5 1
 @trillot: they've basically had a fire sale for the last 9 months
  • 4 0
 Benko is in some trouble. in September the CentralEuroBank has told lenders with outstanding loans to Benko to take a hit and expect losses from their loans with him. ..so, SIGNA, being the big weight in the boat is making things unsteady and business partners will need to bail.
  • 7 0
 Isn't Ragley Bikes owned by WiggleCRC too?
  • 3 0
 Yes.
  • 1 0
 @benpinnick: really? Oh man I loved the bigwig
  • 1 0
 Yeah I have a feeling NS and Octane One are linked to CRC too?
  • 2 0
 @samdaman1: Fortunately not. As far as I'm aware, NS Bikes is still owned by the Polish company 7ANNA and that, I think, is still in the hands of the original founder, Szymon Kobylinski.

Not that losing a big distributor like CRC won't hurt them, but hopefully not completely drag them down.
  • 5 0
 Yeah. Which sucks. I love my Big Wig. Hopefully Ragley can survive somehow.
  • 4 0
 Are HLC bikes in the USA / Canada also on the way to trouble since being bought out?

A few friends over in the US have told me they aren’t restocking at the moment and suppliers payments aren’t going out on time.
  • 2 0
 I would imagine most distributors are under a lot of pressure/in distress at the moment. Low margin high inventory business, where you suddenly can't even shift stuff at cost - basically the same issue Chiggle has had.
  • 3 0
 @benpinnick: apparently the issues only began when they were bought out from the original owner who started the business - a familiar story.
  • 8 0
 @justanotherusername: When Wiggle bought CRC they basically destroyed it. Got rid of CRC's wheel building, moved the registered business to the UK out of NI, started running the place like it was Wiggle when they should have run Wiggle like it was CRC.
  • 4 0
 @Fix-the-Spade: I couldn’t ever understand why they ran both together and didn’t merge them to become one website in honesty.

All about trying to turn a large online bike shop into a faceless shopping service to maximise profit for the holding company.
  • 1 0
 @benpinnick: Absolutely. QBP is the biggest distributor in NA and they're constantly running flash sales trying to get liquid cash, still sitting on so much inventory from massive COVID orders. H2 is hurting, HLC is hurting. The smaller distributors might not make it through this, same with some of the smaller brands that are already on the rocks or scaling/pivoting operations to stay in business.
  • 1 0
 @GTscoob: As I said above a few friends of mine who work for a US supplier of HLC are starting to become worried about them going the way of CRC, they are pretty exposed too.

Of course both are now owned by ‘parent companies’ too…..
  • 11 5
 for everyone crawling back to their long abandoned IBD / IBS.. we take cake and beer as apologies...
  • 8 0
 cake and beer are triggers for my IBS. Not fun.
  • 1 0
 Not sure that's gonna happen at least in the volume needed to prop up all the struggling shops.
  • 14 5
 Sounds like your attitude is the reason you lost customers, not crc/wiggle.
  • 3 0
 Sad news. I only have positive experiences from Nukeproof and I have been watching their product line evolve since the beginning. Solid designs and execution at reasonable prices. The bikes got more expensive over time, which is why Vitus was introduced as the wallet friendly version. Currently only own a NP stem and handlebar, but they are excellent. A mate had an earlier version of the Mega and currently one of their wheelsets, all great products. The Sam Hill saddle is an affordable alternative to the Specialized Power if you are into that shape. Their pedals are good too. I'd happily buy a Scout if I was on the market for a ht.
  • 3 1
 earlier this summer myself & a group of friends all chipped in together to buy a new bike for a friend who's had an appaling time the last few years. ordered the frame from CRC, it took nearly 3 weeks & several emails & phone calls for it to turn up.
  • 2 0
 Sounds like they will be filing for bankruptcy, some of the brands have already started with more to follow.
From the latest press release

Tennis-Point GmbH, one of the major subsidiaries of SIGNA Sports United N.V, has filed for insolvency

Other legal entities of the SIGNA Sports Group, including SIGNA Sports United N.V. as ultimate parent company of the SIGNA Sports United Group, are in the course of preparing the initiation of insolvency proceedings in the coming days

investor.signa-sportsunited.com/news/news/news-details/2023/Tennis-Point-GmbH-one-of-the-major-subsidiaries-of-SIGNA-Sports-United-N.V.-files-for-insolvency-with-further-insolvency-filings-for-other-legal-entities-of-the-SIGNA-Sports-United-Group-including-SIGNA-Sports-United-N.V.-to-follow/default.aspx
  • 3 0
 If it wasn't obvious do not order anything from any of these accompanies until any formal adminstration is agreed. They could be forced to close shop without notice at anytime. Feel sorry for anyone whose job is impacted.
  • 2 0
 CRC was a steady go to for me, easy to contact, a prompt reliable service, and the website was easy to navigate, this when it was all based in Ireland, then it all changed, no direct phone contact, slower delivery, website turned into a tits up affair for me to navigate, and all seemed to mirror with wiggle. I purchased from other shops thereafter, CRC, Wiggle was only a last resort if stuff was unavailable elsewhere, get better service, stock availability and pricing from places in Germany nowadays.
  • 2 0
 A: I guess I should complete my warranty claim regarding my Brand X dropper ASAP
B: I have not shopped much at CRC since Shimano vetoed them from selling to Canadian customers.
C: I cannot understand how I could order a rim and a bunch of other parts made in Taiwan, shipped in a 30" square box from Ireland to BC in 3 days for under $100. Either parts are WAY cheaper than I thought, or shipping is way cheaper than I thought.
  • 2 0
 Ever since they went to the new website design, and changed a lot of pricing for Canadians, I totally stopped shopping there. They used to be my #1 retailer and my first stop for everything. Terrible web UX and terrible deals have kept me away from even browsing their site now.
  • 3 0
 Wiggle changed their website and made it hard to buy stuff in NZ - the old website worked great.
They also had odd shipping rates, $1100 to ship a bike to NZD... for reference, Canyon charge $250.
  • 3 1
 I feel so sorry for the people who work for these companies. I have no sympathy for the executives at the top who have lost at their own race to the bottom of pricing, who knew a bike company that sells everything at +20% off would go bust? People love a deal but turnover is vanity you need to make profit on something to be able to sustain as a business.. all of these virus bikes that sell at 4k for a carbon bike with golden fox suspension giving people the idea that 8k bikes of the same spec are a rip off, turns out they can’t afford to sell bikes at those prices after all….
  • 3 1
 Bring back the old prices of bikes and parts here in the United States specialized was selling carbon e-bikes for $3500 out the door which means the margins are insane on bikes and components everyone is greedy for the money now that’s why YT is doing great they didn’t go crazy on price hike they kept it consumer friendly
  • 5 0
 Sam Hill signs with Iron Horse Gravity Team
  • 4 2
 Hmmmmm think we all saw this coming. Brexit and pandemic probably didn't help much. CRC used to be THE place to go as many have said but someone or something pretty much ran them into the ground.
  • 5 3
 There are a stack of other companies based in the EU all financed by SIGNA that are also filing for bankruptcy or insolvency protection. This is not a Brexit issue. It is venture capital, highly leveraged financing and greed, all from an Austrian parent company.
  • 5 0
 Better get your rear derailleur hanger orders in...
  • 4 0
 dang that means kyle strait if without a ride or the ability to see the bike he was developing come to market.
  • 1 0
 Looks like Vitus has shut down their US website and orders. That said the frame I want at is discounted on Wiggle/CRC. I assume they are still fulfilling orders? I received my last Wiggle order here in the US back in late August.
  • 2 1
 Out of interest, does this news make it more likely to buy something from them to support a cycling business, or less likely you'd buy something as you might not get after-sales support IF they go under?
  • 4 2
 Nope, not buying anything from them, wont buy anything from bikester neither since theres an announcement on the website that they cant handle returns, so that doesnt really strike with confidence.
  • 1 0
 you may say it's a vicious cycle...
  • 6 4
 Nukeproof/hotlines have the worst customer service it’s is awful ,CRC has been sh1te since the original business was taken over by wiggle
  • 2 0
 Maybe still some space for Butlers Bikes on Highland Rd, Pompey. This little bike shop has just had a midlife crisis and will be back up and running soon Smile AKA Wiggle
  • 4 1
 I just placed an order with CRC... please ship out order before going under, then whatever happens, happens. Thanks.
  • 3 1
 Is there any update on what this means for Ragley Bikes? I believe they are owned by this group as well. As a Ragley owner would hate to see them disappear.
  • 1 0
 You have the reverse Midas touch.
  • 1 0
 Yeah, Ragley is owned by Wiggle, so they're affected as well.
  • 1 0
 Just bought a spare derailleur hanger for my new Ragley. I hope they survive, the value on their frames are top notch and the new models have great geo.
  • 3 0
 These suits better not be calling Ronan Dunne and Sam Hill "under-performing assets"
  • 1 0
 They will be because they have no tangible value in the eyes of there sorts of financial organisations.
  • 1 0
 Signa just delisted from stock exchange , filling bankruptcy total liquidation sale. North America offices just closed in Utah...,everyone just lost their job with only two hour notice.
  • 2 0
 Surely reporting this only causes people to loose trust so I assume people will cease to place orders and accelerate the decline.
  • 2 0
 If they can't make Nukeproof, Vitus, and Chain Reaction cycles profitable, it is completely bad financial management. I'm sure those companies are selling a ton of product.
  • 2 0
 And Scott sports Switzerland is laying off a fair amount of its employees, this time it's getting serious.
  • 2 0
 Signa also sold German sports retailer SportScheck to Frasers Group in the UK recently.
  • 3 0
 Better hope my Vitus doesn't break on me.
  • 1 0
 Major bummer. I owned several Nukeproofs and they were all great. I ordered from CRC and they all shipped to east Coast US very quick.
  • 2 0
 Same. Except I bought a few Vitus bikes. Great bikes, relatively cheap and shipped very quickly to the northeast. It’d be a bummer to see Vitus and Nukeproof go as they both just set up US headquarters.
  • 3 0
 Viva la small bike shops!
  • 1 0
 I purchased a Nukeproof reactor from CRC this summer for 40% off. I guess I know why now. Luckily I have a couple great local shops who I usually shop at.
  • 1 0
 Considering a Nukeproof giga is like my dream bike, should I just get over it now or hope they get bought by someone and continue making bikes lol
  • 2 0
 And they also bought Bikester and redirected online traffic to CRC, such a shame as Bikester were superb.
  • 2 0
 CRC Might have to put a sale on.... I'll see myself out.
  • 2 1
 Without the bike boom, they could've lived forever solely off of revenue from oldstock Shimano parts too Frown
  • 1 0
 I just tried going to the USA Vitus website and it automatically sends me to the UK site. Strange.
  • 1 0
 The USA side is already gone and no more apparently.
  • 1 0
 Times like these make UDH an even better idea...

(not sure if Nukeproof, Vitus have them. I don't think Ragley does)
  • 1 2
 Yeah, I don't think I'd buy a bike with proprietary hanger ever again
  • 3 0
 Most of the recent Nukeproof frames (post-2021 Giga etc) do have UDH
  • 1 0
 @ecwecw: I got caught out years ago with a commencal supreme dh were the hanger was about €60 so never again
  • 1 0
 FFS just ordered a vitus Emythique yesterday. What do you reckon the chances are of me getting it?
  • 4 0
 Well it's showing as shipped now so fingers crossed
  • 1 0
 Hopefully someone buys and restructures the company, even if its a leaner version of its old self.
  • 1 0
 It's going to be a banner year for those that want to buy a name in the bike biz!
  • 1 0
 Nukeproof was making some really rad bikes, hopefully someone picks up the brand
  • 1 1
 Nukeproof is or was Frown one of my favorite brands. I almost bought one a couple months ago but it was at full price and hearing the rumors about CRC I decided not to.
  • 1 0
 If Specialized hadnt put their bikes on sale last year, they too would be having liquidity concerns.
  • 1 0
 If they not bust now they will be after this, I mean who would buy from the now?
  • 8 11
 Here's hoping they can re-vitusise the business and blue-sky their way to forward thinking signagies to wiggle out of the situation. At this point the business is a reactor and they are at risk of a chain reaction happening. They need a business capable of withstanding a nuke at this point, but if they succeed they will be over the Sam Hill and onto new ground. No other Brandt will come close. Soon there will be a Heap of riders back on their bikes ready for more complaining about their absolutely shocking website.
  • 1 0
 I guess that explains the huge Vitus sale at the moment...
  • 1 0
 Wow, right when I was looking to maybe buy a Scout in the US.
  • 1 0
 You're probably SOL, as they are only doing (or were doing now I guess) limited runs with unique paint jobs, like the "Stout" one on there now. Next run not due till 2024...who knows now.
  • 1 2
 With these companies closing out, will there be a bank-sale to sell the remaining stock? A cheap bike might be a fun purchase.
  • 1 0
 That sucks. I use to buy everything from CRC
  • 1 0
 I wonder if Bikester will also be affected?
  • 2 0
 Yes it will, they have a banner on their website that states "returns are not possible at the moment".
  • 1 0
 @Twr: That's a shame, I always use them in a pinch for any smaller parts. Hopefully we do not see these companies go under
  • 1 0
 The UK site redirects you to Wiggle.
  • 3 2
 This is why you're supposed to be a Sigma male, not a Signa male.
  • 1 0
 Next up... Devinci signs Sam Hill?
  • 3 0
 No they just pulled out of the UCI enduro series
  • 2 0
 @Ck7lOi: Well then... Razz
  • 1 0
 Sam hill to gas gas
  • 1 0
 @Ck7lOi: so did sam haha
  • 1 0
 Classic GUT the company hedge fund manuver.
  • 1 0
 The US dtc website is longer as well.
  • 1 0
 “Just send it”- mtbrs in early 00’s
  • 1 0
 CRC customer service sucks
  • 2 1
 Nukeproof not "crisisproof"
  • 2 0
 quite sad innit?
  • 1 0
 Ok @cyclesdevinci .... Time to sign Kyle Strait
  • 1 0
 Any new update on Nukeproof?
  • 2 5
 Just trying to send my mega frame back because the paint is cracked. Dont know if its a good idea. Maybe i should just repair the paint in a shop before sending the frame into the unknown
  • 12 2
 The PAINT is cracked? Dude? It's a mtb...
  • 6 1
 @Will762: Cracks in the paint can be an indicator of problems under the paint.
  • 2 0
 @randalliser: i know… so hopefully everything will work out with the warranty. They have a frame for me. So its just about the annoying thing of sending the frame back.
  • 1 2
 @randalliser: if your that concerned get it x-rayed. NP carbon frames are renowned for their slightly crap paint
  • 2 2
 @briain: There aslo renowned for cracking....
  • 3 0
 My 2020 reactor carbon frame paint cracked and delaminated under the bash guard took nukeproof 2 months to even give me an answer in the end I got a complete new 2021 frame for free , but by that point I’d already got so fed up with them mucking me about I’d already bought another frame of a different brand
so sold the reactor frame , vowed never to buy nukeproof again , hotlines are awful to deal with
  • 1 1
 Vitus US website is shutdown. That's a sign.
  • 1 0
 Signa just filled for bankruptcy today
  • 1 0
 European site still up
  • 2 5
 It would be cool to see Pinkbike save this company by pumping up the stock. Kinda like Reddit did for Gamestop. I see zero chance of that happening as the only thing Pinkbikers can agree on is that autoplay videos suck.
  • 5 0
 You missed the part where it says they de-listed from the NYSE so there is no stock to pump!
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