The Pinkbike Podcast: Episode 88 - Mountain Biking on a Budget

Nov 11, 2021
by Mike Levy  
Pinkbike Podcast
Art by Taj Mihelich

There are many sports that don't require anywhere near the financial investment that mountain biking does, but that doesn't mean that you should be stuck using cheap gear that holds you back. In fact, with a bit of smart shopping, you might be able to find yourself a great bike, new fork, brakes, or whatever else you need at a reasonable price. The key, of course, is to figure out when it's worth spending a few extra fun tokens, and when it's better to save them for the next time you need a fresh set of Minions.

Episode 88 sees Brian Park, Alicia Leggett, and myself talk about how to get the most bang for your buck without paying for it on the trail. What's your best money-saving tip? What's the one component you're happy to pay too much for?

Nov 11th, 2021

I only buy used chamois...

Featuring a rotating cast of the editorial team and other guests, the Pinkbike podcast is a weekly update on all the latest stories from around the world of mountain biking, as well as some frank discussion about tech, racing, and everything in between.

This week's podcast is presented by Hammerhead and Michelin Tires.

Previous Pinkbike Podcasts
Episode 1 - Why Are Bikes So Expensive?
Episode 2 - Where the Hell is the Grim Donut?
Episode 3 - Pond Beaver Tech
Episode 4 - Why is Every Bike a Trail Bike?
Episode 5 - Can You Trust Bike Reviews?
Episode 6 - Over Biked Or Under Biked?
Episode 7 - Wild Project Bikes
Episode 8 - Do We Need an Even Larger Wheel Size?
Episode 9 - Why Are We Doing a Cross-Country Field Test?
Episode 10 - Getting Nerdy About Bike Setup
Episode 11 - Are We Going Racing This Year?
Episode 12 - What's the Future of Bike Shops?
Episode 13 - Are Bikes Too Regular Now?
Episode 14 - What Bikes Would Pinkbike Editors Buy?
Episode 15 - What's Holding Mountain Biking Back?
Episode 16 - Who's Your Mountain Biking Hero?
Episode 17 - XC Field Test Insider
Episode 18 - Electronics on your Mountain Bike: Good or Bad?
Episode 19 - The Hardtail Episode
Episode 20 - MTB Conspiracy Theories
Episode 21 - Stuff We Were Wrong About
Episode 22 - Does Your Riding Style Match Your Personality?
Episode 23 - Grim Donut 2 is Live!
Episode 24 - Why Even Buy a DH Bike?
Episode 25 - Fall Field Test Preview
Episode 26 - The Three Most Important Mountain Bikes
Episode 27 - The World Champs Special
Episode 28 - All About Women's Bikes
Episode 29 - Freeride or Die
Episode 30 - Would You Rather?
Episode 31 - Wet Weather Riding Tips & Tricks
Episode 32 - What Needs to Change in the Bike Industry?
Episode 33 - Behind the Scenes at Pinkbike Academy
Episode 34 - Grilling Levy About Field Test Trail Bikes (and His Bonspiel)
Episode 35 - Story Time - Stranger Than Fiction
Episode 36 - Grilling Kazimer about Field Test Enduro Bikes
Episode 37 - The 2020 Privateer Season with Ben Cathro
Episode 38 - Editors Defend Their 2020 Best-Of Picks
Episode 39 - Predicting the Future of Mountain Biking
Episode 40 - The Pinkbike Awards!
Episode 41 - Racing Rumours and Team Changes
Episode 42 - Mountain Biking's Guilty Pleasures
Episode 43 - Dangerholm's Wildest Custom Mountain Bikes
Episode 44 - Mountain Bike Suspension Decoded
Episode 45 - What Makes a Good Riding Buddy
Episode 46 - The RockShox Zeb vs Fox 38 Deep Dive
Episode 47 - High Pivot Bikes: The Good, The Bad, and The Why?
Episode 48 - Rides That Went Horribly Wrong... & Why That Made Them So Good
Episode 49 - What's the Best DH Bike?
Episode 50 - Are Bikes Actually Getting Less Expensive? (Value Bike Field Test Preview)
Episode 51 - Should MTB Media Post Spy Shots?
Episode 52 - Our Most Embarrassing MTB Moments
Episode 53 - Should Climbers Still Have the Right of Way?
Episode 54 - Best and Worst MTB Product Marketing
Episode 55 - Big Dumb Rides & Staying Motivated
Episode 56 - What Were the Most Important Inventions in Mountain Biking?
Episode 57 - What Were the Best (and Worst) Trends in Mountain Biking?
Episode 58 - Debunking Mountain Biking's Biggest Myths
Episode 59 - Value Bike Field Trip Surprises & Spoilers
Episode 60 - What Kind of Mountain Biker Do You Want to Be?
Episode 61 - Athlete Pay, Lycra, Equality and More from the State of the Sport Survey
Episode 62 - Editor Preferences and Why They Matter
Episode 63 - Our Best (And Worst) Bike Buying Advice
Episode 64 - Who's On Your MTB Mount Rushmore?
Episode 65 - The Hardtail Episode
Episode 66 - The Best and Worst of Repairing Bikes
Episode 67 - The Story of Mountain Biking's Most Interesting Man: Richard Cunningham
Episode 68 - Who Are Mountain Biking's Unsung Heroes?
Episode 69 - The Good, Bad, and Strange Bikes We've Owned - Part 1
Episode 70 - The Good, Bad, and Strange Bikes We've Owned - Part 2
Episode 71 - The Story of Mountain Biking's Most Interesting Man: Richard Cunningham - A Pinkbike Podcast Special, Part 2
Episode 72 - Hey Outers!
Episode 73 - The Details That Matter... and Some That Shouldn't
Episode 74 - The Best Trails We've Ridden and What Makes Them So Special
Episode 75 - Things MTB Brands Waste Money On
Episode 76 - MTB Originals and Copycats
Episode 77 - Interview with Outside CEO, Robin Thurston
Episode 78 - Modern Geometry Explained
Episode 79 - What's the Future of eMTBs?
Episode 80 - The Best Vehicles for Mountain Bikers
Episode 81 - You've Got Questions, We've (Maybe) Got Answers
Episode 82 - Behind the Scenes at Field Test
Episode 83 - Does Carbon Fiber Belong On Your Mountain Bike?
Episode 84 - Explaining RockShox's Computer Controlled Suspension
Episode 85 - Is the Red Bull Rampage Too Slopestyle?
Episode 86 - Greg Minnaar on the Honda DH Bike, World Cup Racing, and Staying Fast Forever
Episode 87 - How to Love Riding When it's Cold and Wet

Author Info:
mikelevy avatar

Member since Oct 18, 2005
2,032 articles

  • 96 6
 On a budget...why?

Be safe be well,
Incognito Robin
  • 10 2
 Capitalism approves this message.
  • 1 0
 @cmi85: there is no more "on the budget", create enough demand and artificial shortage and you'll never sell any bike or bike component at more than 10%, if that as well.. maybe lower.. maybe none!
the same practice Mercedes and VW applies with great succes in cars. The same type of cars, with worse spec and componentry from gen to gen(but with more gagetry) is getting more and more expensive.. in fact, in the time it took me to write this, the mrsp of a new Mercedes just got up with 1k..why..because we are too dvmb enough to take attitude or do something about it.
  • 1 0
 10% discount, that is
  • 56 0
 I spent too much money on biking, and couldn't keep up mortgage payments, so now it....
Looks like a repossession.

"Thanks very much, I'm here all week." *dodges thrown tomato.
  • 17 0
 If you don't pay your exorcist do you get repossessed? *this is a Brett Tippie joke.
  • 2 0
 I hope you could hear my groan on the other side of the pond
  • 52 0
 Mtb-ing on a budget? Is this podcast just the sound of people laughing hysterically?
  • 17 0
 You’re not far off tbh
  • 10 2
 and scoffing at hardtails.
  • 12 2
 @fartymarty: I don't remember if we talked about HTs in there, but that's definitely a good way to save cash—both in up front costs and maintenance costs.
  • 3 0
 @brianpark: You didn't, I was excited for a little hardtail love
  • 6 0
 @7imothy: Absolutely no mention of hardtails. I would think this is one of the best ways to save money. Buy a used steel HT with reasonable geo, fork and wheelset. The rest are wear parts. Change the brakes if they really suck.
  • 1 0
 @fartymarty: or pop over to Decathlon and for £800 buy the AM 1.0, and a £50 helmet.
  • 1 0
 @fartymarty: swear to Gawd...after 20 years off I got back in the game. Bought a sweet eyewatering orange Vanquish, no problems. Year later bought a squishy bike, within 6 months fell off and put a big dent in my rear shock canister. Can't do that on a hardtail.
  • 2 0
 @Lemmyschild: Steel HTs are for life.
  • 1 0
 @fartymarty: if I had more time to ride more bikes I'd definitley be doing some research.
  • 2 0
 @fartymarty: I think the hardtail experience is not really comparable though. I would go as far as to say that it's almost its own category of riding. Not better, not worse but certainly different.
  • 1 0
 @BenTheSwabian: but they're a great way to get into the sport on the cheap.
  • 52 0
 Budget tip: keep the same bike for 5 years at least
  • 6 3
 Under-rated comment. $1,000 annual for repairs/maintenance/parts vs $4,000-$10,000 for new bike annual (or $15,000 if you want supercharged e-bike) : (
  • 25 7
 @Billjohn6: depends on how much you ride. From a pure budgetary perspective there's something to be said for flipping bikes every ~2 years. eg. new bike comes out in 2022, you buy it, ride in in 2022 and 2023, sell in spring 2024, new model comes out later in 2024. If you put in a lot of miles, there's a good chance that saves you money in the long run vs running a bike into the ground and selling after 5+ years when it's worth significantly less.
  • 28 1
 @Billjohn6: following up: I'm a proponent of keeping bikes for longer from an environmental perspective and a general waste perspective... I am happy to have the industry slow down and focus on the long haul.
  • 8 2
 @Billjohn6: If you ride a lot the math is much different..2 year flip I find is the best financially for me personally...
  • 4 0
 @brianpark: Don't really know how that worked before corona. With all the new standards, wheel sizes, geometry changes and changes almost each model year value could did drop significantly also because if you roll a new bike from the dealer the second owner can't make warranty claims. If you buy an ebike this matters even more because if the motor or battery die you're in for hundreds if not for over a thousand $ to repair it.
  • 5 0
 @MikeyMT: agreed. Often times when you buy new models as they come out so they aren't updated before you sell you can recoup like 70-80% on a bike after 2 years while only performing routine maintenance. You can even be honest about drivetrain and pivot/suspension needs. At 4 years the depreciation doubles but you've also bought a new drivetrain and performed major suspension and brake services.
  • 4 0
 I have a few old bikes - one I bought used in 1993 and the other new in 1987. So 5yrs is a low bar. Smile
  • 2 0
 @sspiff: Yup exactly. Ideally timing before the bike changes aesthetically is key. Even after 1 season its an absolute minimum of $1k maintenance if you're riding a lot. Hell I'm on my third set of tires this year and they are on their last leg...thats ~500 bucks alone right there.
  • 13 2
 @brianpark: How would one run a bike into the ground in five years? If the bike is half decent and you do your maintenance, it should easily last a decade or more. Plus of course, it is silly to think of it as just a bike and how long it lasts as a mountainbike is so modular. You obviously got your wear parts (drivetrain parts, tires etc), then you may want to upgrade parts because you want a new fork, you may want to try 12 speed, you may upgrade the freehub of your DT 370 hub... And then at some point you upgrade the frame and hey, loads of stuff just transfers to the new bike. Yeah I know the bitching about standards and all but actually in the past few years things have been fairly steady. So yeah, how much do you need to swap before you'd say you have a new bike? If it really means a complete bike from the shop then I only got that when I bought my first mtb. Which was 20 years ago. So in that sense, a bike easily lasts two decades (even though I don't actually have anything left of what was on that first bike).
  • 7 0
 Now that I've finally found a modern geometry bike that fits well I plan to keep it for a long time.
  • 2 0
 @brianpark: agree with the environmental aspect. 5 years on my current frame and I’ve had the major suspension service etc, but it didn’t lead to another bike being made from raw materials and I still hold the bike back more than it holds me back

Plus, I got it less than a season old used, and it’s got a build kit that I still wouldn’t dream of buying new
  • 2 4
 One year flip is same overall cost as keeping bike for five years. And environment has nothing to do with it if you sell your bike, which everyone will do.
  • 3 1
 @iamamodel: I'd say that a generalisazion is really hard because there are so many factors playing into it and most people are not even honest to themselves when it comes to things like this. And if you buy 5 bikes or one bike in 5 years does make a difference to the environment. What are you smoking?
  • 1 0
 @iamamodel: I've never sold a bike. The first (generic aluminium hardtail I used for four years) frame we assembled with friends with some parts everyone had into a bike for the club which people could borrow, so basically gave away. The second frame (a steel Voodoo Erzulie hardtail frame I used for one year) I wrecked in a crash so became useless. The third frame (a steel DMR Switchback hardtail used for ten years) I assembled with some light XC parts for my daughter so we could ride together. I'm now on my fourth frame (BTR Ranger steel hardtail since May 201Cool I plan to keep riding for as long as I can. Most parts have transferred from frame to frame though relatively little from the DMR to the BTR because indeed some standards have changed.

But yeah I agree with your main point. If parts are still good, they'll still be used one way or another. If parts are broken, then they won't. So from an environmental perspective, buy stuff that lasts (and be a bit lucky) and they'll continue to be used.
  • 3 0
 @iamamodel: but if you sell your bike and buy another used bike... boom, environment!
  • 2 0
 @brianpark: No, you buy the current model when the new one arrives on sale at the end of the year, automatically you are going to save enough for that 5 years of abuse. But I can only speak in behalf of human powered bikes, not sure what is going on in fancy electronics...

But I think is your logic applies to all consumer goods... and that logic is a consumerist (and industry) logic unfortunately. Is time to rethink this anual ritual for future sake...

btw... I liked your recent content regarding this concern...
  • 3 0
 @brajal: hah yes that's another good strategy. Buy one generation removed from the newest AFTER it's depreciated. I think that's a lot more viable in 2022 than it was in 2019, because we'll have gone through one generation of bikes that have pretty reasonable geometry.
  • 1 0
 @mca896: If you put it like that, no actually. If you sell your bike and replace it with a new one instead then yes indeed. Yet at this stage from what I understand there are more people getting into the sport. And considering the reported scarcity, most if not all used bikes will be sold and will be used. I feel technological progress has settled a little in recent years so a bike a couple of years old now is still good enough for anyone (if cared for properly). The pedal assist market worries me a bit though. Technological progress is so fast these days that these bikes age faster plus of course the condition of the electronics (including the mechanical part of the motor) is hard to assess by everyone except the expert/professional. I can imagine this gets in the way of reuse.

That's the mtb scene. Living in The Netherlands, most bikes around are commuter bikes and are being used for work, groceries and school. I think pretty much every bike is being used to (or beyond) the point that it is completely dead. Reports are loads of new bikes have pedal assist now but this only means that we can buy quality used bikes. For both my daughters I could buy used bikes with 7sp Nexus internal geared hubs, which is great because it is quite a way to school. And every bike they grew out of got a new happy home. So the transition to e-bikes doesn't quite hurt at this point as these people typically leave some very good unassisted bikes for us to ride. And hopefully those who made the transition to pedal assist are actually riding their cars less and their bikes more. It obviously requires more and wider cycle paths but I'm seeing those being developed everywhere, at the expense of car lanes.
  • 1 1
 @KalkhoffKiller: A bike is only bad for the environment once it is thrown in the bin. My bikes aren't thrown in the bin. It's pretty simple.
  • 1 0
 @iamamodel: Interestingly, the Trek report only covers the process from material to bike delivered to the customer. Would be interesting to see the process of end of life disposal too to check your claim. Though I wouldn't surprised if the disposal of old tires and used DOT liquid (both independent on the durability of the bike itself) has a larger footprint than the disposal of a bike frame.
  • 1 1
 @vinay: I'm really just responding to the allegation that buying five bikes in five years is worse for the environment than one bike in five years. As long as those five bikes are sold, then there's no difference to the environment.
  • 2 0
 @iamamodel: if it is driving up the overall production of bikes then it is impactful.
  • 3 0
 @brianpark: Depends a lot of the resale value of your bike. I ran the math with a spreadsheet which include all the maintenance cost year by year (yes, I'm kind of a nerd and I keep track of all my maintenance cost on all my bike for the last 8 years).
The results mainly depends how much you can sell your bike. Pre Covid, down here in the south of France, it was very difficult to sell a used bike over 1800/2000€. If you want to flip the bike every 2 years, you have to accept a big loss of money.
After 4 years, your bike is worth a lot less but you can sell it easily and your loss per year drops. Of course you have more maintenance cost but after all, on a yearly base, it's the moment when you loose the least amount of money. Pass 4 years, the maintenance cost increase, the resell value continue to drop and there are no advantage to keep your bike longer. It's not cheaper, you ride an old bike and you have more mechanical on it.
  • 1 0
 @hpman83: maintenance costs are highly individual, depending on how much and it the kind of conditions you ride. Some people can get away with only tires and oil/grease over years.
  • 1 0
 @hpman83: How is maintenance more expensive once a bike is older than 4 years? Your wear parts (cassette, tires etc) probably have been replaced in the mean time so these aren't that old and don't contribute to the cost. A good hub could do with basic half yearly maintenance, which doesn't suddenly cost more after four years. Even cartridge bearings aren't that expensive, let along the oil or grease for the freewheel. Only thing I can think of is bushing wear (which aren't too expensive to swap and I don't think it matters much between brands). And probably damper service/replacement, which could become expensive depending on the type. But other than that? If your bike has rear suspension and the linkage has been poorly aligned, I can imagine you're eating through bearings there too. But even there, are these expensive to replace? From what I understand, Santa Cruz replaces them for free so I can imagine others do too. I'm honestly curious what could possibly make a bike more expensive after only a few years. I've ridden my previous frame for ten years and except for a bit of rust where the cables rub it was fine. My current frame is over three years old now (and most bigger components for it I bought new back then, so these are as old, other components are older) and it is going just fine. I can't see how anything could suddenly become more expensive.
  • 1 0
 @vinay: From my experience riding here in the south of France, a place where the mud is not existent.
I ride about 3000Kms a year for about 100 000m vertical. Type of riding Enduro (ish) with no competition. No bike park with chairlift on this bike (I have a downhill bike for that).
So from my previous bike what changed after 4 years:
*/ With no mud, the transmission doesn't need to be changed before 4 years (cassette and chainring).
*/ The derailleur need to be replaced because of too much play and decreasing shifting performances.
*/ I had to change to shock body (where is the piston) because of internal wear. I'm doing my suspension maintenance at manufacturer intervals (so it cost me only seals and oil).
*/ The stanchions on the fork start to see some sign of wear (the black coating is not as black as before)
*/ Often you can have a lot of maintenance to do on the dropper post.
*/ Replace the rear rim or at best, change all the spoke because they start to snap one after the other.
  • 2 0
 @hpman83: Thanks for your elaborate answer. I understand that components wear but it doesn't quite clarify to me why it would be cheaper to replace the complete bike at that point. If your rear mech is worn after for years, if you replace it with a new one then in that respect, it is as new isn't it? Same goes for other parts. A stanchion (hence crown-stanchion-steerer assembly) may be a bit more expensive to replace but most fork manufacturers do offer these as spare and still much cheaper than a complete new fork. And again, if you replace that part (and the bushings) there is no reason why it wouldn't last just as long as it just did before. I mean, I can imagine that if the bores for the frame bearings start to widen, the headtube starts to ovalize, threads get worn, that may be a reason to replace a frame which, for some, implies a new complete bike may be interesting. But until that point, replacing or repairing quality components would be cheaper I'd say.
  • 1 0
 @vinay: To calcultae the cost per year I do the following:
((Cost of new bike ) + (Total cost of maintenance) - (Resale Value of the bike)) / (Number of year I keep the bike) = (Cost per year).
During the first 4 years, the cost per year is decreasing but after 4 years, it stabilizes and has a tendency to slighty increase. So overall, keeping your bike 4 years or 7 years cost you the same amount of money but you have more breakdown, and a bike with old geometry and old standards. Of course, this results is only valid if you buy the bike new. If you buy your bike used, you have to do the math (I have no idea of the result).
And also the result can vary depending how much you ride (for the cost of maintenance), where you ride (mud or dry makes a big difference), if you do your own maintenance or if you pay a bike shop to do it etc etc....
  • 1 0
 @hpman83: Thanks again for clearing that up. The difference with my approach (and I fully respect your approach) is that I just ride nearly everything until it is worn or broken. The exception may be frames of which I've broken only one (a steel Voodoo Erzulie hardtail). My first frame (generic aluminium hardtail) we assembled with parts everyone had kicking around and gave it to the club for people to borrow. My previous frame (steel DMR Switchback hardtail) was actually good and I rode it for ten years but it was quite short (because I just want a low top tube and back then that implied the frame would be short). Especially as I at some point shifted to Catalyst pedals which are designed to have your midfoot over the axle (rode ball of the foot over the axle until then) balance was too much over the front which made it too twitchy and I was constantly losing the rear in corners which gets old quick. I reassembled it with lightweight parts and my daughter rides it now. But I'm happy with my current frame and I don't see it break though even if it does, they'll be able to fix it for less than the frame cost initially. But other parts, they just wear. I recently replaced my right hand Magura Louise 2006 (green) master for a Magura Marta 2009 because it started sucking air. Calipers were already the 2007 model as I needed PM for frame and fork. But that's it right? Nearly everything can be fixed, spares can be had everywhere. Nearly nothing of the stuff I dispose of is usable, let alone worth money. The stuff that can be used, I give away as indeed it probably doesn't have any resale value anyway. But that doesn't mean that it has ever been particularly expensive to keep my old gear running. Whoever buys used gear takes the cost of maintenance into consideration so it seems to me the cost of maintenance and the difference between the cost of new and resale would cancel out. If not, either whoever buys your used gear would have been better off buying new. Or it would have been cheaper for you to hold on to what you had because you're paying more for your new component/bike than it would have cost to maintain it.

But I admit, I'm no proper armchair economist. I just ride my bike and fix and maintain it when I should. I think most money disappears in lube, tires, chain and the smaller cassette sprockets (maybe because I always stand and as such apply more load on the drivetrain). I just don't think I'd be cheaper off at any point to replace the bike instead of any of these wear items.
  • 25 0
 Both my local bike shops offer 15% off parts and accessories to members of the local MTB club. For $50 it's well worth it plus the other perks.

And, contrary to popular belief, you can have fun on a bike with outdated geo and *gasp* 26" wheels.
  • 12 2
 No you can't. Fake news.
  • 20 0
 Buy used, do your own wrenching, don't buy the into the "this bike will make you faster" advertising. You are fast enough, any faster and you'll be spending more for hospital stays & dentist visits than on biking. Learn how to adjust psi and turn knobs on your current fork before spending $1000 on another fork you won't know how to tune. Get a tire gauge & use it. You don't need oil slick parts, oil slick was stupid in the 90's, it's still stupid.
  • 14 0
 After watching the recent Peaty video where he rides his 2006 V10 vs the 2021 one, it made me think.. What would be faster? A 2006 frame with 2021 components or a 2021 frame with 2006 components?
  • 12 1
 Or a 2013 frame with 2013 components..?
  • 27 1
 One Peaty sized duck or a hundred duck sized Peaty?
  • 6 0
 Totally! If he had modern brakes, a wider bar and some other basic upgrades I think his 2006 times would have been indistinguishable from other factors such as fatigue and mistakes that day.

Kind of blew my perspective actually, surprise that video didn’t get more traction.

I think for DH bikes this dispels the myth of progression. Maybe climbing bikes like xc/trail would have a greater gap / tangible difference.
  • 8 4
 @map-guy: he's also a professional mountain biker, unlike 90% of consumers.

You can't compare how a pro can ride an old bike vs everyone else at the trailhead.
  • 5 1
 @jcougs: you’re getting downvoted but I completely agree. Normal riders would get far more benefit from a modern bike (geo wise) than a pro. I think that’s why “what the pros use” doesn’t have a direct reflection on what is best for the average rider. They’d be fast on anything.
  • 1 0
 @stumps916: Sounds like someone should redo this test with a group of riders of varying skill ranges.
  • 15 1
 If you want to save money, service your own bike it's easier than you think and you'll save a ton of money in the long wrong even if it's a bit more money upfront.
  • 7 0
 This^ and think of the collaterals, not only the bike: latte before and restaurant after every weekend ride? Gas, you split with friends? Clothes, are they too specific so you can't wear them for other sports? Wanna save money? Lose habits.
  • 2 0
 @Jo-rides: the collaterals are a big one. A lot of people need those things to feel like they are really part of it, such as the post-ride beers at a local beer garden with the bikes parked out front, or the fully kitted 4x4, Kashima rack, whatever.
  • 1 0
 @mca896: collaterals = lifestyle
  • 2 0
 @Jo-rides: I was wearing a tshirt from a triathlon I did 10 years ago (which I also wore all day at work) and a pair of swim trunks on my ride last night. Only my flats were biking specific...sorta. My street shoes are a pair of flat pedal shoes I got on clearance that I found to be uncomfortable when riding.
  • 12 1
 Pro tip on how to get a bunch of prodeals - join American Alpine Club. Annual membership is only 45 has some good perks like an air ambulance insurance AND pro deals on dozens of brands...not all are MTB brands but all 'top-tier' outdoor brands....anywhere from 20 - 50% off.
  • 2 1
 also join your local IMBA club and you get prodeals on a ton of brands, only some are MTB but it's still a good deal
  • 1 0
 You get the deals on apparel for the $45 dollar membership. You have to go to the $100 annual for the insurance and other perks.
  • 9 0
 Another overlooked area to save money on mountain biking is to invest in a good set of tools and learn how to maintain the majority of the bike yourself vs taking it to a shop. If you can take care of everything but major suspension overhauls & wheel building you’ll be good to go
  • 10 0
 Meanwhile Sam pilgrim has just put put a video having more fun and riding better than all of us on a janky old free bike
  • 9 0
 ~~having fun~~
I feel like at least 70% of the folk I bump into are completely missing this fundamental aspect of bike riding.
  • 6 0
 @dirtyburger: do you think it's maybe because you just "bumped" into them? I would be ticked if someone ran into me too.
  • 1 0
 Pils rides with the mindset most of us had when we were kids, I try to do the same. I had fun skidding on wet leaves in a neighborhood park using a friends beatup old 2006? Gary Fisher mullet. Fork bushings were absolutely toast but it was a great time!
  • 6 0
 If I had gotten a dollar each time my friends tried to convince me to upgrade my slx for an xt derailleur (because it ''shifts so much better''), I'd be riding a Yeti e-Bike

I really enjoy the podcast, keep it up!
  • 5 0
 Something I have done twice now is buy a new bike with a Rockshoxs Yari and the crap MC damper and then buy the basic Charger damper on the pinkbike forum for less than 100 bucks (from someone who has upgraded their Lyric Select+ charger damper to a charger 2.1). Now you have a Lyric Select + fork for cheap.
  • 2 0
 Thats a great idea. I would argue that it would be better to spend the $300 and just get the rc2.1 though. You dont know how beat that $100 damper is. And them while youre at it get the $42 debonair spring. Now your yari is lyrik ultimate (or whatever nomenclature it is)

I started with a lyrik RC in 2018. Rode it for 3 seasons and only did lower service. This year bought debonair and rc2.1 and the fork is dreamy. I havent thought about bushings until now though when it was mentioned in this podcast.
  • 2 0
 This is what I do, but then spend 250 bucks for the smashpot coil conversion and you have the ultimate fork for still less then a 36 or lyrik
  • 2 0
 Totally! I even bought the Yari "Ultimate" decals for it!
  • 4 0
 Havent listened to this yet, just pressed play but did notice that this is 40mins long. The cynic in me immediately thinks there is a strong correlation between how NOT cheap mountain biking is and the length of this podcast Smile
  • 1 0
 I was thinking the same, but there were only three of us on this episode so there was a bit less talking.
  • 3 0
 Thanks for the response on the tires! Funnily enough it is in regards to my optic that I bought sight unseen off of Pinkbike buy sell. I did get burned because it came without a very important pivot nut that won’t be in until January. Thankfully a bolt company had the right thread pitch and I was able to figure it out and the bike is amazing. I’m running the stock magic Mary and Hans dampf on it which I like because you feel close to death the whole way down. Makes it more exciting! Thinking of something a touch safer though later on.
  • 6 3
 We're a single income fam with kids, and it's only been recently that I've been able to afford this sport. Once the mortgage payments have diminished.

We're not seeing economies of scale yet, but we are seeing prices that reflect high demand. There are many folks here carrying water for overinflated bike prices–including PB staff.
  • 10 7
 Hard disagree that I'm part of the "overinflated bike prices."
  • 7 0
 Mtb on a budget? U mean bmx riders
  • 3 0
 Okay, so this answer may get a little long. I apologize upfront. Mountain biking is not an expensive sport in comparison to other outdoor activities I enjoy. It is actually one of my cheaper sports I do besides hiking. I hunt, fish, snowmobile, hike and golf. In comparison, I spend way more doing each of those than I do mountain biking.

Now to focus on mountain biking itself. I think the most money spent is initially. I got back into mountain biking after many years of being out of the biking world. My mistake was buying a bike without doing some research. I tend to learn best from making mistakes so who knows if I would of listened anyway. I started off by buying a Trek Marlin. I tend to like jumps and was lured into a hardtail to start due to costs. For the first year I was okay, but after that, I broke pieces every few weeks. Every time I broke, I upgraded that part. So now, I have a entry level hardtail with a bunch of upgrades. Since then I bought a slightly used full suspension frame, shock, crank and wheels. I can take the tires, pedals, tubes, bars, grips off my old bike and throw them onto the newer one. I will have a mid-grade full suspension bike for about $2000. Granted it will be slightly used on some parts but the new equivalent is $3700. I hope to use this for a few years and maybe do another build. This allows me to keep this at about $500-800 a year. That is not bad. My gear is all new but I by last year or two year old new old stock. Keeps prices low. If you look at golf, most of my friends have $2000-$3000 sets of clubs and then pay $80 each time you go at a course. Most courses in Mn I ride are free to use. I hate the description of the mountain bike to a cost of a motorcycle or car. High quality metals are expensive. Boats are 10's of thousands of dollars and then require larger vehicles to pull them, then tackle, gas, licenses for every state you fish. Mountain biking is my cheaper sport I enjoy that gives me exercise, an adrenaline rush and a connection with nature. If I only had one sport to do, I would sell my boat, my guns and bow and keep my bike. There is a satisfaction about it and it does not have to be expensive. Keep on riding.
  • 2 0
 @brianpark the only problem with getting fox fork with grip1 damper or the rockshox with charger damper is most are only OE forks…so it will be complete builds with less choice on the other components. Complete builds generally will have one part weaker ie drivetrain, resin brakes, etc
  • 10 5
 Don't even need to listen... The answer is: You can't.

It's all overpriced and expensive.
  • 2 0
 @mikelevy and Alicia question regarding this week. I find myself being likely able to upgrade my frameset, with 90%ish of my components that can be moved up. Doing so would leave me with a boosted rear end, but the older 100mm axle fork. Any concerns with that or do you think that mismatch would go unnoticed on the trail?

Also @brianpark you can count me among the 3 people excited to hear more about your 3D printing, perhaps you can convince Jason Lucas to do a video in exchange for a printing him ankle braces for the next huck to flat.
  • 2 0
 That's what's currently on my 2nd bike (full 29er). No issues... I'm looking for a good deal on a boost fork but there's no time pressure this way
  • 2 0
 @Mr-Gilsch: boost made forks worse anyway! In theory at least. More leverage should mean more independent motion from each leg which will create binding.
  • 3 0
 boost spacing is an unbelievably small part of wheel/system stiffness especially in the front. It was just tacked on when boost spacing for the rear was adopted but there's really no real world performance benefit.
  • 1 0
 @chize @Mr-Gilsch The only down side I could think of was being limited to ala-carte wheel building, as sets are distinctly not mismatched. However that would allow me to upgrade in smaller stages, rather than saving for a longer time and then buying all at once. That train of thought makes me wonder if anyone has over forked a 27.5 fork and wheel on a frame intended to run a 29 mullet until they can buy a 29 fork and wheel.
  • 2 0
 @pockets-the-coyote: you could definitely run an overforked 27.5 front with a mullet bike, bb might be a bit low at full bottom out but probably no issue. You could also run your current wheelset with a boost adapter in the rear until you've saved enough to get a new fork and wheelset all at the same time
  • 2 0
 @pockets-the-coyote: yeah or in my case I can only swap half of my fancy wheelset over to my hardtail.. But the day of the boost fork will come haha
  • 4 2
 I would also add factoring in the expected resale value in the price of your purchase and being on top for cosmetic wear. Sometimes spending a little bit more for posher stuff will help you get more when it's time for you to sell. It's fine line to walk though

Heli tape and 3M will also go a long way in keeping your bike looking sharp in the buy/sell section. Nobody wants a bike with a crank polished to bare Aluminium and scratches everywhere. Protect the crank arms top tube, fork lowers, rear triangle,...
  • 3 0
 This is a really good one.
  • 2 0
 I can't ride a bike that I have to worry about scratching. I want to enjoy riding it, not stress over "what if I scratch it?"
  • 1 0
 @JSTootell: Well sure, but when I see a worn top tube from kneepads, seatstays from rubbing heels and polished cranks, I think it's a degradation that you can easily avoid.

I've trashed and raced all my bikes without holding in, trust me. But when I sell them I just peel the 3M off and tadaaaam! When people say "wow, looks brand new!", you know your bargaining price just went +10%. For a broke man like me, it's defo worth the care !
  • 1 0
 @freebikeur: My bike bounced down a waterfall in Sedona. Your 3M tape isn't protecting against that.

I was only concerned that maybe I broke the bike. Amazingly, just chipped paint.
  • 3 0
 @JSTootell: Mhmmm, I'd say dropping a bike down a waterfall surely isn't the best way to save money ahah Glad it held up though !
  • 2 0
 My first MTB was an ex-rental from my local shuttle service. A $2000 bike, ridden 10-20 times, well-maintained, bought for $1200. Buying an ex-rental is a bit risky since the renters wouldn't have been kind to it, but I trusted the rental place and it was worth the risk. I ended up selling it 3 years later (a few months ago) for $950! I loved the bike, and financially it was amazing!
  • 2 0
 Isn’t this all just building the foundation for company’s to start profiting off leasing a new bicycle(or finance)? It’s more cost effective to buy some new bike every 2 years….yeah cause rich people spend their own money and new bike prices are getting lower!
  • 6 0
 A ton of brands and shops already finance bikes. Which is insane to me.
  • 1 0
 @brianpark: Bike financing has been around for years now, at least since 2015 when I started riding.

A friend of mine does/did finance all his bikes. But he always got the 0% intro rate and just paid it all off before it was due, he had the cash available for it.
  • 2 0
 Guess everyone has different terrain and taste but Wicked Will a XC tire? Minion DC tires? Aren't the latter labeled FR/DH? I like Minion on longer travel trail bikes but on an efficient 120mm bike I surely don't want more than something like a Forecaster or Rekon.
  • 2 0
 You don’t notice the performance difference between an NX and a X01 derailleur until you’ve had it for 6 months and the springs gets wonky and you’re constantly having to fiddle with your barrel adjuster, then you just buy a GX derailleur and you’ve spent the same amount as you would had you started with the X01. Long term reviews on budget stuff would be good.
  • 2 0
 No offense guys, I usually enjoy the podcast very much and can't wait for each new episode, but this time it seems like you didin't really put in the effort. There's so much more you could have gone into, like what you would buy for specific budget components, what bikes you personally think are good value right now, your personal experiences with buying used, recommendations on resources to learn doing maintenance yourself, etc etc. To be fair, you briefly touched on most of those points but I'd have appreciated a more indepth conversation and not like 30 seconds to quickly gloss over every topic. I suppose you are all very busy and and the pod isn't number one on the priority list. If this is a trade off that we'd have to make, I'd honestly rather not have a podcast every week but one that is indepth and researched well.
  • 4 0
 Buy wear items on sell in bulk - chains, tires, brake pads, etc... Your going to need em eventually
  • 3 0
 Buy aluminum with good geo for full suspension, or a steel hardtail. Put the whole family or friend group on the same components then buy wear items in bulk.
  • 1 0
 Last full bike service - last month
Full forks and rear shock + CSU £630
Frame bearings + tools to fit £145
Bearings for, Headset, wheels, BB £130
New chain ring shimarno composite £54
Chain £27
New jockey wheels £35
Cables £30
Front tyre £50 (rear still good from last year)
Brake pads £30

Total £1131
Other than the shocks I did all the work my self, it’s still more though now that I’ve added it up! That advice about a mechanic course is well worth considering. And you can always share tools, we do in our riding group.

Big thank to TFtune for getting the service and set up of the shocks spot on - that was definitely worth the money.
  • 3 0
 This is something I don't quite understand. How often does one get a service like this done? I service my bike when it starts to feel a little off, but am riding a 2015 frame and ride quite a bit, and pretty hard, and have not had to do headset bearings, wheel bearings, or frame bearings. So my question is (not directed at you specifically) how many people are paying tons of $$ for new bearings etc. not because they need them but because they've reached their "recommended service interval"? That's probably a good avenue to save money - don't replace something that isn't broken!
  • 1 0
 @mca896: hello, mine were well past there service interval! The headset ones fell to pieces when I took the fork out, and to say the others felt granchy would be an understatement. I ride in soil that has a good sand/clay mix and makes a great grinding paste. It was also the first time I’ve had to change the frame bearings and would normally expect them to last at least +3 years. I also am trying decent SS enduro bearings for wheels, etc so cost a bit more than I’d usually spend. I’m with you on the don’t replace until you have too.
  • 2 0
 How on earth did you come up with 850$ for suspension service? Sorry, but that is just absurd.
  • 1 0
 @SimonJaeger: Hi as I said new CSU as the forks are 2018 36’s that have been through the ringer. The CSU was creaking and clicking badly. Been locktite’d twice, CSU £435. Might be expensive but still cheaper than a new set of forks. Hence why the service for fork and shocks cost £630.
  • 2 0
 @MrAngry: 435 pounds for a new CSU? Wow. That's tough man.
  • 1 0
 @SimonJaeger: yep, not idea but cheaper than a new set of forks, and better than grinding my face in the dirt if they failed.
  • 2 0
 Building a bike on a budget is more challenging this year than 2 years ago. Somehow I have put $1,500 into a 26" trail hardtail/dirt jumper but was able to build a full suspension for $1,800 in 2019/early 2020.
  • 2 0
 On the podcast you mention that some dampers are easier to service at home than others. If you were buying parts with an eye towards working on them yourself what would be some picks?
  • 3 1
 Rockshox or DVO
  • 2 0
 SR Suntour
  • 2 0
 Rockshox Pike, Lyrik, Zeb, Yari, Revelation, Dominion, Deluxe, Superdeluxe and Superdeluxe Coil are all 100% user serviceable.

If you want to do ALL the maintenance youself, there's basically no alternative to RockShox.
  • 2 0
 @AndrewHornor: Not really. Their inline shocks are require a nitrogen charge in the IFP chamber and most of the damper cartridges of their forks are not user serviceable at all.
  • 1 0
 @SimonJaeger: I bled my Durolux rc2 damper in my back yard with no special tools. I used an old 25.4mm stem as a clamp to hold it.
  • 1 0
 @SimonJaeger: After I explained that I bought the fork second hand and wasn't expecting any kind of warranty service, the guy from Suntour NA emailed me a PDF of the procedure. There are small parts to reassemble in the right order and that may be the only reason opening the damper voids its warranty.
  • 1 0
 Might have been space to break it up into 'MTB on a budget for people that already MTB' and 'MTB on a budget for noobs' - I have been both at this point and it's gone from saving for a bike that has disc brakes and modernish geo to saving to maintain a solid bike I plan to have for quite a few years
  • 1 0
 @brianpark Why did you go with a better chain for your ideal „budget“-drivetrain? Where does it make a difference, do they last significantly longer? I always agonise over whether I should spend the extra cash, but then don’t since I just don’t know what benefit it would truly get me.
  • 2 0
 Mostly because I kinda buy into the snakeoil that the nicer chains last longer and wear the rest of the drivetrain out more slowly. Might be my years of shop bro indoctrination coming through though.
  • 2 0
 @brianpark: Ouh, ok, I was hoping you had actual data, but oh well. Turns out we‘re both in the same boat ^^
Don’t know if you‘ve got the Equipment to do it, but testing that might be interesting. Could be anywhere from lab-testing to just restricting @mikekazimer to only deore chains for half a year and then only XT-Chains Wink
  • 1 0
 @brianpark: …but maybe I should also just google if anyone has done that already before „demanding“ tests from you Razz
  • 1 0
 @mikelevy @henryquinney - A digital fist-bump to ya for Comment Gold of this cast. I'm basking, triumphant, ascendant, and otherwise at the peak of my life and can die now. Skip the Henry's-on-Acid show and lets focus on a peak-glory soundtrack peppered with quick quips of wisdom and insights from all 88 Comment Gold winners of the casts - followed by a DH race among us to see who really is the badass of all time on our cheapest gear & unwashed used chamois (chamoises?) Except, not.

Seriously though - really just felt it for Henry since I don't think he's the I-Think-I-Can-Fly off a building type, but he really coulda wound up in a serious situation that being his 1st time, and having been abandoned with only a headlamp on that uphill climb outta the party. Glad he lives.
  • 1 0
 MRT: it's the best and worst. definitely don't fly in from out of state jsut for it. But for fall colors in oregon and Tamolich falls, it's epic. Overuse in the midsection (hikers to tamolich falls) it's the worst -- but now there's a 4 mile bike-only reroute trail for that very reason, haven't checked it out yet but it goes through the same lava section, but is much faster and less slow/tech from what I hear. Handles water well in winter, which is why it's great.
  • 1 0
 Building bikes on a budget… I saw a video for the cdale Dave and it had a pike dj and a deck tape down tube sticker.

I bought a dave and it’s a manitou and a normal gloss over.

I know it’s tough times for supplies etc but how often to these types of switcheroos (have to) happen?

Any funny stories from the inside that project managers would to tell anonymously?
  • 2 0
 The idea of a drug effected riding podcast or video is great. Put it behind 100 pay walls idgaf. Levy trying to learn backies on DMT is all I want for Xmas. Also more of what Henry had to offer. Please and thank you.
  • 1 0
 First of all shimano is too hard to spell so you have to run sram. I run gx drive train with xx1 chain. Code rsc’s but code R’s work just fine. I also can say there is a big difference in suspension. Currently I’m running a zeb ultimate because my old olhins rf36 blew up. The olhins was a great fork but from riding park all summer and all the dust the seals dried up and the bushings had play. I would have liked to purchase another olhins but servicing them is a pain and shipping them away every time the damper is gone is super expensive and takes up to 2 months to get your fork back. For tires I like running a specialized eliminator and slaughter DH. I have also run the purgatory and it had tones of traction on mud and roots but was slick on wet rock and didn’t have a great rolling speed.
  • 1 1
 Cheap bastards.....y'know, it's weird how using this derogatory term (it's not a compliment to anyone whose father abandoned them) is quite accepted. I'm not complaining, just noticing some irony.
Anyways, it's just interesting, it's really neither here nor there.

A lot of us haven't tried many different tires and just the answers to the first question are really helpful.
  • 3 0
 Bastards are children out of wedlock, not father abandonment. So it’s not really derogatory anymore
  • 3 0
 Children born out of wedlock*
  • 1 0
 This topic is indeed near and dear to me. I go by @cheapondirt on Instagram and the schtick is that I spend no more than $100 per month, on everything related to riding. It's possible - and actually kind of fun.
  • 1 0
 Does your $100 a month budget roll over to the next month if you don't spend it? I could see easily going 2-3 months without needing to buy something, so then can you spend $300 on something more/bigger?
  • 1 0
 @mca896: yes, exactly. Whatever's left goes into a dedicated bank account at the end of the month. I saved up 4 months for new brakes. Set your budget based on what makes sense for your finances, it can even change month to month if income varies. The best part is if you have a partner and they get the same allowance, there won't be fighting over discretionary purchases.
  • 1 0
 Cool idea, but does that include the purchase or just the maintenance const?
  • 2 0
 @SimonJaeger: purchase too. It takes a very long time to get a new bike on $100 / mo. You can always set a higher budget to allow maintenance, upgrades, AND setting aside money for the next frame or bike.
  • 5 2
 I really enjoyed this podcast heading right into the topic. Maybe ditch the news on future episodes too.
  • 6 0
 Agreed Smile
  • 1 14
flag lev3000 (Nov 11, 2021 at 22:31) (Below Threshold)
 It was also better without Quinney trying to hold court, trampling over Levy and turning it in to an episode of “The Crown” for Mountain Bikes!
  • 7 0
 But…I really like the news
  • 2 0
 I agree with Brian about the MRT. I rode that thing in like 2ish degree weather and raining. That is the coldest I’ve ever been in my life.
  • 1 0
 Agreed. The MRT sucks in my opinion. I rode it at least once a year for about ten years. Always because a riding buddy wanted to do it. Every single time I was cursing myself half way through the ride for saying yes again. Happy to say I've been MRT free for three years now. Also don't recommend riding up and down it on the same day. Absolutely miserable.
  • 1 0
 @garrisond5: I crave this validation.
  • 1 0
 @brianpark: I flew there for my 50th birthday bucket list ride; was disappointed
  • 2 0
 Washing up liquid. Clothes from Decathlon. Fixing tires. Doing your own maintenance. Get fit so you feel good on your bike regardless of what condition its in.
  • 1 0
 Can absolutely agree on the "get fit" point and would like to add "train technical riding skills". This makes a huge difference. Most people fail to realize this I think, because they get fooled by marketing. But buying a new bike will not change who you are as a rider, it won't enhance your skills. If you don't have the skills beforehand, you won't have them on a new bike. That new Santa Cruz, Ibis or Specialized will not magically make you a super skilled rider overnight.
  • 4 3
 Deffo the first episode i've listened to where i felt it was really under-explored. 15 mins of chat about used sofas etc and little real insight which was a real shame.

Hope this isnt a downward trend starting :-(
  • 1 0
 I felt so too. I usually like the podcast and can't wair for each new episode, but this time it seemed like they just scratched the surface.
  • 1 0
 I would rather choose a drive train depending on the amount of riding. Deore may shift great but if you ride lots a XT chain becomes cheaper and you create less trash after over time.
  • 3 0
 Get a job at a bike shop, score pro deals, and dip
  • 3 0
 Most shops are wise on this now, and often require 6 months of work before letting you EP a bike. by the time you work 6 months at minimum wage, you'll loose more money then save. That being said, I loved my time at a shop!
  • 11 0
 That was my plan… ended up staying for a decade haha
  • 2 0
 @mikelevy: sounds about right, I’m just now leaving the bike shop after 8 years myself. They got me.
  • 3 0
 Once you've bought the bike, its a cheap sport... right?
  • 4 0
 Definitely has possibility to be if you have trails from home.

You could get a decent mountain bike across a couple of years for the same price as a monthly gym membership over same period.

I know which would be better for your body , mind and soul after 2 years as well as skillset/adventure/challenge/outdoors etc etc.
  • 2 0
 Don’t forget N+1
  • 2 2
 I used up my 2021 mtb budget already in March. My ride buddy then bought an ebike a few weeks ago and now I have used my mtb budget for 2022+2023! ebikes are extremely contagious apparantly ;/
  • 18 0
 new riding buddies are way cheaper...
  • 7 0
 @VtVolk: making them wait is priceless
  • 1 0
 Is there even that much of point on buying an E-Bike when you live in Denmark? No offense, but isn't the highest point of elevation in your enrtire country like 120m above sea level?
  • 3 0
 No Kaz? What kind of podcast is this.
  • 13 2
 I heard he's off on vacation with his hentai body pillow in Sedona.
  • 1 2
 @brianpark: Eeew….um @pinkbikeHR!
  • 1 0
 @brianpark: The same one he uses in HOV lanes?
  • 1 0
 I am just going to come here and appreciate Michelin - on point sponsor for saving money. I love the wild enduros, been holding up great in the wet north shore conditions.
  • 1 0
 Can you guys stick kaz on one of those ski bike things, id like to see what he thinks of it as a skier. they look pretty cool.
  • 1 0
 Buy a second hand cyclocross bike for peanuts from a disillusioned roadie, remove all but 1 cog, and learn how to suffer for a winter season!
  • 1 0
 @brianpark what were you saying about chain lube? it was hard to understand the words you said and just curious what method you're using
  • 1 0
 Hey Guys, Jack Moir had some surgery done on his shoulder, maybe he has some time on his hands to join the podcast.
  • 2 0
 Where are these promised youtube links to Aliens in the comments, Levy?
  • 2 0
 Don't buy top spec anything and you're set
  • 2 0
 Bontrager tires are made by Maxxis, and Maxxis’ parent company is CST.
  • 1 0
 compared to playing golf, mountain biking is definitely a supersaver sport for the fiscally frugal minded
  • 1 0
 Mike vs Mike After taking 100 mics.
  • 1 0
 3D printing is awesome! I need to print some pedals I guess lol.
  • 1 1
 Best bikes on a budget... Ragley Big Al, Spec Stumpy Comp Alu, Ibis Ripmo Alum,
  • 8 1
 The one you already have with an angleset.
  • 1 0
 How do I save money on mountain bike-related medical bills?
  • 1 0
 Heavy tires? Nah fast race and ardent race 247
  • 1 0
 Good Stuff!
  • 2 2
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