Athletes Now Need to be Fully Vaccinated Against COVID to Compete in France

Jan 18, 2022
by James Smurthwaite  

The French health minister has announced that foreign athletes wishing to compete in the country must be vaccinated against COVID-19.

Government sources told AFP on Monday that a new vaccine pass, “applies to everyone, to volunteers and to elite sportspeople, including those coming from abroad, until further notice.” The news follows in the wake of tennis player Novak Djokovic's high-profile deportation from Australia after it was revealed he was not vaccinated before travelling to the country.

To obtain the new vaccine pass, a complete vaccine procedure (two doses or one, depending on the vaccine) will be required. From February 15, a third booster dose (as long as it has been four months after the previous doses) will also be required for the pass to remain valid. Sports Minister Roxana Maracineanu emphasised on Twitter on Sunday evening that "as soon as the law is promulgated, it will become compulsory to enter Establishments Receiving Public (ERP) already subject to the health pass (stadium, theatre or exhibition) for all spectators, athletes, French or foreign professionals."

Marcineau later told the media, “To practice your profession or come for pleasure as part of a sports team you will have to have a valid vaccine. That’s the case for both people who live in France and also for foreigners who come to our country for a holiday or a major sporting event. Athletes have a role to play in helping convince non-vaccinated people into the vaccine programme as soon as possible.”, Cycling News reports.

A mob of fuzzy animals snatched Alex Fayolle off the hostseat as soon as Vergier crossed the line.
Lourdes may look very different to last time out in 2017 when we return in March.

The first round of the downhill World Cup series take place in Lourdes, France at the end of March and racers will return to the country in August for the World Championships in Les Gets. While we aren't aware of the vaccine status of any mountain bike racers, we know that some athletes have delayed getting jabbed due to their fears over the side effects of the vaccine. In road cycling, former Olympic champion Greg van Avermaet is one such rider as he delayed his booster after blaming his first two doses for a lack of form.

The UCI has yet to publish its own COVID protocols for the 2022 season and it has not yet commented on the French law.

Editor's Note: A previous version of this article claimed that an athlete could compete in France if they were recently recovered from COVID-19, this has been removed.

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Member since Nov 14, 2018
1,770 articles

  • 1338 24
 Lance Armstrong excited to hear that drugs are now mandatory to race bicycles in France.
  • 32 22
 @AyJayDoubleyou comment win for today. Big Grin
  • 144 99
 Technically a vaccine is not a drug. But the joke is good, you have my upvote
  • 158 9
 I want to see an enduro race on drugs. It would be a blast. Marijuana for first stage. Before the long climb, mushrooms somewhere midrace and PCP before the last downhill
  • 297 448
flag astock (Jan 18, 2022 at 10:26) (Below Threshold)
 @Obiwankenoob: technically the covid "vaccine" isnt an actual vaccine because you can still get covid
  • 117 180
flag truehipster (Jan 18, 2022 at 10:35) (Below Threshold)
 @astock: and you wouldn’t need 3 (or 4 if your in Denmark) shots!
  • 225 95
 @astock: Last summer the CDC removed the word immunity from the definition of vaccine. 1984 shit
  • 94 3
 @astock: The varicella (chickenpox) vaccine is between 85% and 90% effective in preventing all varicella infections.
  • 7 5
 @astock: so does that make it a drug?
  • 29 19
 @Obiwankenoob: the treatment in testing isn't a vaccine until the full process is done.
  • 104 281
flag astock (Jan 18, 2022 at 10:46) (Below Threshold)
 @Obiwankenoob: more like a poison but yea
  • 73 50
 @mammal: That's a hell of a lot more effective than the C-19 shots!
  • 43 66
flag astock (Jan 18, 2022 at 10:53) (Below Threshold)
 @mybaben: facts
  • 19 3
 @pakleni: OMG, so much yes. And a separate category at Redbull Rampage for guys on shrooms
  • 162 73
 @astock: You absolute idiot.
  • 52 101
flag astock (Jan 18, 2022 at 11:05) (Below Threshold)
 @HGAB: lol
  • 1 0
 @pakleni: I thought they called this ^^ trail riding lol
  • 184 105
 @mybaben: Dude the point of the vaccine is to keep you from dying from it. And it's working.
  • 200 204
flag mybaben (Jan 18, 2022 at 11:11) (Below Threshold)
 @HGAB: That's an apologist perspective. It's not what we were sold/told! We were sold the idea that this was the end, the light at the of the tunnel... Now the response is, "Well at least you're not dead." That's ridiculous. Our gov has failed us because they are owned by big pharma!
  • 216 272
flag blowmyfuse (Jan 18, 2022 at 11:25) (Below Threshold)
 @HGAB: @HGAB: Funny how 100% of the people I know who were healthly (which numbers in the HUNDREDS) who have had the virus, not the vaccine, kept from dying, kept from hospitalization and got sick but fully recovered.

And yet over a DOZEN people I know personally have had severe (not mild) if not life ending reactions to the vaccine.
Cousin - blood clots from abdomen all the way to toes 2 days after his dose ( 6 months of surgeries)
Brother in Law - massive swelling in lower leg 1 day after 2nd dose (ER visit, blood thinners)
Student athlete on my daughters team - Could not walk for 2 days due to intense pain/swelling in legs after 2nd dose
Close friends uncle - dead after his 1st shot from heart attack w/ no prior heart issues or meds
Good friends aunt & her son - both dead from heart issues 2 months after their shot (within weeks of each other)

But yeah....lets give me and my family, my church group, the lady who cleaned my teeth today...and most everyone I know... a shot that ruined the lives of people near and dear to me.

If France doesn't want people suffering from Covid, slap the cigarettes, sugar, salt & processed gobs of food out of the hands & make them get off their butts and exercise.

This is a disease of hypertension caused by gluttony, obesity, COPD & sloth that preys on people who didn't listen to good health advise.

2 Million more people alive in the US versus last year and the year before that. Stop virtue signaling.
  • 90 76
 If you can smell a fart... (edit: through an N95 mask)

and a fart particle hitting your nose is over 1000 times the size of the virus...

...Global warming!
  • 46 6
 @pakleni: Edible World Series…
  • 97 80
 @fabriciofracchia: Yes, and bug pharma will keep telling us it takes regular shots for the rest of our lives to be “complete”.
This “vaccine” is already the most profitable medical product in world history. Stop and think about that. Why do countries that can’t afford this “vaccine” have lower death/infection rates than the wealthy nations of the world?
  • 4 0
 @pakleni: Or let's go 100% performance enhancer. I want to see a 11x17 printout with 4 separate columns in portrait mode with #8 font singlespaced front and back list of the shit each competitor is taking.
  • 40 66
flag greener1 (Jan 18, 2022 at 11:36) (Below Threshold)
 @mybaben: If little pharma, or even you in your basement, can come up with something more effective I'm sure governments would be all ears....unfortunately, the folks who have the most knowledge and resouces to bring to the table guessed it: "big pharma".
  • 86 64
 @blowmyfuse: wow sorry for your losses .000006% chance that 2 people you know would die. Such bad odd. I would still get vaccinated with the .0022% chance of death. It's that or a 1.4% chance of death from covid.
  • 53 8
 @mattmach7: sulphur molecules are what you smell...and they're not 1000x bigger than a virus.
  • 29 28
 @astock: Ah, so relieved we have a doctor on the forum to shield us from random ignorant opinions!
  • 7 0
 @pakleni: I can imagine any racer on shrooms is going to have time dilation issues :-P
  • 82 104
flag blowmyfuse (Jan 18, 2022 at 12:13) (Below Threshold)
 @Daniel412206: @Daniel412206: Man....taking a crap shot at me with fake statistics? Really?

I do appreciate that you can take your own chance and I took mine and both seemed to work out. We ain't dead.

I know exactly ZERO people who died with Covid complications, no relative of a relative, not even a friend of a friend on Facebook.

Gluttony and sloth are the disease and countries around the globe are funneling all of society into a net to force feed the healthy populace a dangerous experiment they don't want.

And it's all so we can try to relieve ourselves of the guilt of overeaters, lazy people and smokers dying of the weakness they gave themselves.
  • 94 23
 @blowmyfuse: you have some weird luck. I know multiple people who have died of Covid but no one who has had any abnormal reactions to vaccine. Healing vibes to all your people
  • 25 5
 @mammal: and for how long does the varicella vaccine maintain this effectiveness? Does it fall by 5-15% a month? Kind of feels like we need to wake the RnD guys up and tell them to go back to the drawing board doesn't it.
  • 45 14
 @blowmyfuse: Not trying to argue, just stating what I think. I've had quite a few relatives who have caught covid and passed. I'm not worried about dying from covid just don't want to spread it along. I respect your opinion and I'm honestly not sure if the vaccine is worth it either with the breakthrough cases. I don't think it's necessary to require it to race.
  • 13 2
 @blowmyfuse: I will agree that obesity is an epidemic of the United States, but I would be hard pressed to say it's a Pandemic. As a Canadian, I can tell you that fitness and healthy living is on the rise, and it's very rare to see an obese person where I live. But this isn't news, just waste Southpark season 14 episode 3 called "Medicinal Fried Chicken".
  • 3 0
 @Obiwankenoob : techniquement, le pfizer n'est pas un vaccin non plus
  • 21 17
 @mattmach7: the virus doesn't float's inside of water droplets, which are gigantic because they are composed of millions of water molecules each, and why an N95 stops them no problem
  • 19 10
 @blowmyfuse: tell me your thoughts on ebikes please.
  • 17 1
 @greener1: actually, Biontech and Moderna were little pharma before Covid. AFAIK Biontech went to market with Pfizer not because they had the R&D knowledge but because they had the resources for large scale deployment.
Not so little that they were run from a basement of course, but startups living off investor money.
  • 67 32
 @greener1: That's a super poorly thought out analysis and response, and very typical.

The governments have failed us because of their complete lack of offering ANY advice or guidance on prevention, such as techniques for optimal health and wellness, or strengthening our immune systems. They have also offered ZERO guidance on ANY early treatment protocols of any kind. This is what has lead to hundreds of thousands being hospitalized unnecessarily, and also dying. Our guidance when infected has literally been; Go home, lock yourself inside and cross your fingers. This is all because the politicians and health agencies are owned by big pharma, and the corporate establishment in general.
  • 36 4
Covid virus size 0.1 microns
Sulfer molecule size 0.0004 microns
Check your facts.
  • 1 0
 AyjayDoubleyou! Absolute cracker mate,it even got my wife laughing haha
  • 29 8
 @mybaben: 75% of the population doesn’t question whatever the government says.
  • 53 75
flag blowmyfuse (Jan 18, 2022 at 14:07) (Below Threshold)
 @bchristiansen92: 2 years of masks and all we want to do is say they work but that people won't wear them or that "it's a pandemic of the unvaccinated" and you're tossing about on particle sizes.

2 years later. Fokking virus got out of an elite level lab in government controlled lab where if you screw up, they make you disappear off the face of the earth and you think some lower face covering is gonna make it go bye bye after it jumped to every continent in 90 days. got out of a lab where you get flat out MURDERED if you mess up...and we're running around with underwear on our noses like we're the smart ones..
  • 20 6
 @blowmyfuse: I was citing particle sizes in response to mattmach7 false claims about particle sizes. Please refer to the context of the discussion.
  • 57 6
 @blowmyfuse: Dude, get that underwear off your nose, you misread the instructions.
  • 15 5
 @xeren: That was what was thought early on, but it has been determined for some time now that the virus is airborne, not droplets. Anyone staying current with the latest findings is aware that cloth masks have a nearly 0% efficacy in a confined space (office, vehicle, etc). Some N95 (the ones without a vent valve) can still provide a degree of benefit though.
  • 9 8
 @kobold: so you never got the flu vaccine I take it. Immune !=100% deletion of a virus. Immune = body has a heads up on antibodies
  • 26 20
 @mybaben: I'm curious as to what guidance and advice on "strengthening the immune system" and "prevention techniques for optimal health" you feel the governments around the world should have been suggesting. I have to say, when I hear that stuff I think "wellness industry marketing" and not results from reputable peer reviewed sources or chief medical doctors.
  • 1 0
 @Obiwankenoob: Thought the same...
  • 2 5
 @astock: as yoda would say: "wrong he is not".
  • 28 22
 @Obiwankenoob: well it shouldn't be termed a vaccine. Vaccines stop the spread. This does not. Think about if this was called a drug....... would you still feel safe if the governments forced you to take? There needs to be more transparency on how to treat covid. This so called vaccine is not the only modality.
  • 25 6
 @greener1: pretty simple stuff. A healthy bmi/ body fat percentage. A good diet, plenty vegetables. Drink water. Exercise a few times a week. Get sunlight.
All this stuff is immune system boosting.
  • 4 0
 @pakleni: I would have to say MDMA in lieu of PCP before the last downhill.
  • 5 0
 @pakleni: Whistler used to have a race like that. That's how the trail "See Colours and Puke" got its name.
  • 4 12
flag Seldomseen83 (Jan 18, 2022 at 15:37) (Below Threshold)
 @astock: …and spread it!
  • 4 9
flag Seldomseen83 (Jan 18, 2022 at 15:38) (Below Threshold)
 @astock: ….and spread it!
  • 30 14
 @Daniel412206: the vaccine does not stop spreading.
  • 11 22
flag greener1 (Jan 18, 2022 at 15:46) (Below Threshold)
 @TSridesbikes: All those things are sensible to suggest and seem to be good advice in general but what level of evidence can we point to in order to suggest that it actually helps fight covid or even less specifically "strengthens our immune system"? If we're stating effectiveness, where is the evidence? What does strengthens the immune system even mean? Specifically, what are we measuring or looking at to say that, is it T cells, antibodies, gut flora? Again, unless we have some evidence to draw upon, it sounds like just general Wellness advice, not a failing of government/s to educate us on what we can do to combat Covid.
  • 8 1
 @calmWAKI: waki are you really real?
  • 1 0
 Floyd's of Leadville
  • 1 0
 @bchristiansen92: X1000, /1000, to-may-to, to-mah-to
  • 15 9
 @greener1: is evidence is probably Joe Rogan. FFS we are doomed here
  • 3 1
 @Obiwankenoob: good thing it’s not a vaccine then ........big pharma wins again
  • 5 1
 @jomacba: health and fitness is not on the rise. Get out of your bubble.
  • 20 24
flag mybaben (Jan 18, 2022 at 18:21) (Below Threshold)
 @greener1: All kinds of reminders and guidance: exercise, lose weight, stop smoking, take Vit C & D, Zinc, drink 10 glasses of water every single day minimum, get fresh air and lots of sleep. People need continued encouragement in basic health and wellness. You flag says Canada... If you're in BC, you are automatically deficient in Vitamin D, unless you're taking supplements. I live in the PNW, I'm the same. Instead we get 24/7 of put a mask on and take experimental shots. THAT'S ALL WE GET....
  • 2 0
 @zeeker: Salvia league anyone?
  • 3 2
 @mybaben: Not between the months of July and August I'm not!!!
  • 11 9
Western nations high death rates (particularly Americans), due to the virus ability to kill fat and lazy people more easily. Most 3rd world countries have populations that have grown up in or near jungles, where viruses thrive. Thus they have stronger immune responses to covid.
  • 1 0
 @pakleni: for yourself or the riders?
  • 4 5
 @HGAB: ur stupid
  • 7 7
 @mattmach7: Oh FFS man! Are you seriously that ignorant to how the concept of a mask works or are you just stirring the pot?
  • 17 36
flag mikeyb76 (Jan 18, 2022 at 20:57) (Below Threshold)
 @Obiwankenoob: This is not a vaccine, it is in fact a gene therapy drug
  • 83 19
 @astock: a vaccine doesn’t make it so you can’t catch that specific disease. It gives you antibodies so that you react better than if you weren’t vaccinated for it. So basically it’s way easier for your body to fight it than without getting vaccinated beforehand.

The immunity also slowly wears off.

The efficacy also depends on the individual vaccine and dosage.

I’ll give an example for the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine below:

1 dose: ~65% effective (against Alpha and Beta variants)

2 doses: ~92% effective (against Alpha and Beta variants)

2 doses after 6 months from 2nd shot: ~70% effective against Delta and ~50% effective against Omicron

2 doses + booster: ~75% effective against Omicron

Generally it takes ~2 weeks for it to start being effective.

A vaccinated person will have a better immune response to catching a particular disease compared to if they were not vaccinated. The unvaccinated person is way more likely to be hospitalized and/or die. The vaccinated person will have a much smaller chance of being hospitalized and if so, it would be less severe.

Being vaccinated does not mean that you are 100% immune to that particular disease and that you will never get it. It’s just training the body to fight against it so when you come in contact with it your body can fight it easier, and therefore have a significantly less severe reaction.
  • 17 68
flag mikeyb76 (Jan 18, 2022 at 21:04) (Below Threshold)
 @louiefriesen: Bullshit! The MRNA shot is causing ADE, that's why all of the vaxxed are getting OMICRON:MORONIC
  • 20 7
 What about the recently recovered from Covid? Is the French Gov. recognizing natural immunity?
  • 35 9
 @mikeyb76: no. Omicron is almost a completely different virus and has very different spike proteins to the variants the vaccines were designed to fight. It’s essentially a second pandemic.

The only way getting vaccinated helps against omicron is strengthening your immune system.

Where I live the population is 90% vaccinated. ~75% of the omicron cases are in fully vaccinated people. But that doesn’t mean that if you are unvaccinated you are 75% more likely to not get omicron. You are actually 2x as likely to catch omicron. That is because there are more people who are vaccinated than not vaccinated.

The cases for fully vaccinated people was extremely low before omicron.
  • 6 2
 @mikeyb76: yes, recently recovered from Covid share the same status as fully vaccinated people.
  • 11 7
 @Daniel412206: Just to let you know, the 1.4% chance of death from the original COVID strain (not omicron, which is much lower) was only if you went untreated. The chance of death when treated (especially early) was a small fraction of 1%...and even less now with omicron.
  • 48 15
 @Rob05: a vaccine is not a magical shield that prevents you from getting the virus cells in your body in the first place.
It just helps you respond better & faster.

There quite a few comments on failed governments etc.
There has been some mistakes of course. In France, I remember e minister saying that masks were useless because we in fact we ran out of them by throwing away huge stocks that were made for SRAS.
It is easy to judge the decisions that were made 1,5/2 years ago in light of what we now know. Politics in place had to take decisions with incomplete data, diverging scientific opinion, huge population pressure etc.
Yes it was hoped that massive vaccination would stop the spread. Turns out it is not the case. we could argue that the vaccination rate globally was never high enough to reach group immunity, but I will spare you this.
So what, we do not have group immunity and at least we have less people dying from it that if they were not vaccinated. And that is proven multiple times, by a factor 10 approx.

What makes me crazy is that it seems impossible for some to take a tiny tiny personal risk to avoid a greater personal risk AND reduce a greater risk to society at large. That is individualism and selfishness.

Sorry for the losses that you have personally had. I know 0 person who have had serious vaccine aftereffects. I know several people who died from Covid or had long stays in intensive care units.
That does not make my perception of the situation better than yours because you do not deal with epidemics with personal observations but with countrywide/ global statistics.
Of course if this is all conspiracy, big pharma driving the world and failed governments, you will have a hard time believing statistics.
  • 8 20
flag DRomy (Jan 18, 2022 at 22:34) (Below Threshold)
 @xeren: Your statement is factually wrong. The aerosolized water droplets that float around are not easy stopped by N95 mask. A cloth face mask will stop almost all of the bigger globs that cannot stay afloat, which is why the are effective against spreading colds and, to some degree, the flu. Even with a perfect fit, you’re still breathing in the viral particles (up to 2 per aerosolized droplet), and that’s easily many thousands per breath.

Sorry to burst your illusion of safety, but better to know and accept the truth.
  • 34 34
 @Obiwankenoob: Forgive me, but I don’t follow. You acknowledge in one sentence that this “vaccine” doesn’t prevent you from catching OR SPREADING the virus, but then you’re upset because you think people are selfish individuals for not getting the vaccine in order to protect others. If the vaccine still allows you to spread it to others, then everyone (vaccinated or not) is responsible for spreading. You have no basis to be upset with the unvaccinated. At this point, the evidence clearly shows that the vaccine’s only possible benefit in reducing the severity of your own personal reaction. As such, it should be your own personal decision if you want to take it.

The social shaming needs to stop — it’s divisive, pointless, and enormous harm to societies.
  • 14 5
 @mybaben: your first mistake is relying on the government for wellness tips.
  • 4 4
 @mikeyb76: looks like reading isn‘t your strength.
  • 12 0
  • 7 2
 @up-left-down-right: don’t mention the immune system. Our overlords don’t like it.
  • 25 9
 @louiefriesen: I would say you've given one of the better statistical summaries and explanation as to why vaccines work. The problem is that it's difficult to sway people to look at data when they're convinced of their own nonsense (who likes admitting that they're wrong?). Anecdotal evidence just rings home easier. "Yes but my friend..., A lady who got vaccinated died" etc. etc. At the end of the day, if the vast majority of medical professionals advise us to get vaccinated, I will take their word for it. We as mountain-bikers and humans in general will sooner or later end up at the doctor and need their help and advice on our injuries and ailments. For all the skeptics, are you going to listen to your doctor then or just wish yourself back to good health?

Having said that, getting vaccinated remains your choice, but don't moan when you have to deal with the consequences, such as being banned from sporting events or the local restaurant.
  • 4 3
 @Turboute: Just as our immune system doesn't like polio, small pox, yellow fever, rubella, tuberculosis, diphtheria...
  • 22 5
 The independent just posted an article quoting experts who say that Joe Rogan is extraordinarily dangerous.

A friendly reminder that we should get our sht together and learn basics of facts checking… just saying.

No source of information, particularly media superstars (like Joe Rogan) and Government officials are right on everything. Nobody has figured it all out. Very little of widely accessible information has a long shelf life. Most of it will be proven incomplete or straight forward wrong.

Most importantly athletes are not role models, they are no different than Hollywood stars. They are credible at riding bikes and still most of them can’t communicate what the hell they do that makes them good at it. That doesn’t make them idiots or lesser people but they are definitely not the peak humanity. Nobody is. Saying they should guide by example as this French official is just a preposterous act of condescending.

  • 5 1
 @calmWAKI: Wait. What? Waki, is that you? Are you back?
  • 14 9
 @DRomy: Actually, as your body is better prepared to fight the virus once vaccinated, you will clear the virus faster and hence have a lower infectious period, therefore helping to protect your community. The vaccine isn't perfect, no one's claiming it is, but it is absolutely our best defense (individually and globally) against Covid19.
  • 2 4
Hey, did you have the appointment with your doc so that he gave your personal risk/benefit analysis ?
Well it seems yes, cause you know that’s just a tiny tiny personal risk. Well, so because that’s ok for you, let’s apply your own risk/benefit to everyone
  • 14 9
 @DRomy: It would be a personal decision if everyone refusing to get vaccinated also would refuse to get any hospital treatment because of Covid and as a consequence not put any load on the medical system. As long as unvaccinated are more likely to get severe illness and/or more likely to require ICU treatment (You can fact-check that), they prevent normal hospital routine and mean push back of scheduled surgeries (because no ICU bed available after surgery) etc.

Let's even make a thought experiment and assume you or your children are severly injured in a car accident and require ICU treatment, but your local hospital is overloaded because of an increasing number of COVID patients, lessening your/your childrens chances of adequate treatment.
  • 4 1
 @HGAB: Why is he an idiot for saying, 'it's a fact that it's less effective than the varicella vaccine'?
Any news outlet you listen to will tell you that, plus the loss of effectiveness over months compared to the varicella vaccine which is 10 - 20 years.
Sure, it's saved the lives of the vulnerable, but that's not what was being discussed
  • 13 7
 @nots1: May as well kick all of the obese people out of hospital that are in there because of life choices that they have made. Same goes for people who are sick for the many and varied choices they make in life that lead them to need hospital treatment, much of which is preventable by healthier lifestyle choices

And while you are at it, sell all of your bikes because can't afford you to fall off and need hospital treatment.

Where does one draw the line on who to treat and who not to treat? That is one slippery slope you are on there my friend
  • 13 6
 @Davec85: been to a hospital lately? They are not full of obese people. But they sure are packed full of unvaccinated Covid people. Your assumptions are not facts.
  • 10 5
 @Davec85: The difference is that smoking, obesity, normal rate of car/sports accidents don't load the hospital system the same way this pandemic does. You could argue that the hospital/medical system is scaled towards these "normal" loads (Also, your example of obesity disregards the fact that sitting next to a obese person doesn't make you obese, it's not an easily transmissive virus.)

COVID overloads the system. So it is quite easy to draw the line. Everything that is not the cause for a pandemic with all the shitty side effects (lockdowns etc.) is still managable by the system, hence acceptable.
  • 11 3
 @astock: technically your penis isn't a penis because it doesn't always work
  • 3 8
flag JohanG (Jan 19, 2022 at 4:39) (Below Threshold)
 The adverse reactions occur from certain batches/lots, not every jab. That’s why they had gps trackers on every single shipment so they knew exactly where each batch went and who it was given to. They could test out a bunch of different formulas at the same time while everyone believes they’re all being given the same vaccine. Any adverse reactions caused by a certain batch will be limited and much easier to brush under the rug.
  • 6 8
 @stubs179: Hospitals are packed with the elderly, obese, AND unvaccinated people.
  • 1 0
 @bchristiansen92: hes pretty triggered you best just let him go on an on an on...
  • 4 1
 @up-left-down-right: Sounds like we would be better off living in a jungle and not taking this “vaccine”. If these germs could be defeated solely by a stronger immune system, then why does your government lock you in your house?
  • 3 0
 @Obiwankenoob: But you do have to be genetically modified?
  • 8 1
 @greener1: And they think bigpharma is bad. Just wait for the unregulated medicines pandered by folks who are just as profit motivated (if not more so) to cure Covid baby!
  • 8 10
 @blowmyfuse: stop making shit up then. Your “I know a person who knows a person who had issues” reeks of incorrect anecdotes. Probably 98% of people I know have been vaccinated (say about 500 ppl) and I know of no issues beyond feeling a bit crummy the next day. Then again, I know about 8 people that have had covid, and every single one has said it’s awful and some have had lingering issues. Anyone who makes the argument that vaccines are less safe than the virus or not getting jabbed doesn’t understand math and risk. Then again mountain bikers aren’t known for their understanding of risk. But, you know, keep believing the crazy ass conspiracy theories and following the uninformed horde
  • 7 7
 @mybaben: naw. The drug makers are trying their best (and also probably trying to make money like any good business). Why don’t people understand that this virus is insidious, keeps changing, and is hard to keep up with? It’s not actually that hard to understand, and people should be thanking pharma for literally saving millions of lives
  • 9 4
 @calmWAKI: LOL. Another establishment media hit piece on Rogan? Classic. They're always trying to take him down because he has 5 times as many viewers as they do. This is regardless of the covid situation, and I'm not saying anything one way or the other about Rogan. I'm just pointing out corruption when I see it.
  • 9 3
 @ldhbaker: I simply don't have the time to educate you on the history of corporate/state collusion and corruption, and how big business owns the government, not to mention that there is a class war between the 1% and the rest of us, that has been going on for 250 years.
  • 4 4
 @astock: Show me you don’t know how vaccines work without saying you don’t know how vaccines work.
  • 10 7
 Fat, lazy people eating junk food and sitting on their butts all day would much rather take another "booster" than lose weight.

Wife has a full time job and you could clone her 10 times over and not have enough of her counseling 99% of people on how crappy their diet and lifestyles are.

Look, even Pisgah Area SORBA is a whore to Type II Diabetes.
[P= size=m align=c][/P]

The world is in such denial. I know the E.R. docs, I know critical care nurses at 3 hospitals. Over 90% of people going down have a BMI of 25 or higher. At 5'10", that's 199lbs.
  • 1 1
 @striveCF15: Its was the title, Pink Bike must have edited it out.
  • 2 5
 @blowmyfuse: Can you do math? Or even just basic googling? A 5'10" 199 pound person has a BMI of 28.6. At 5'10" you can weigh a pretty normal 174 pounds and be at a BMI of 25.

Also, Mountain Dew is the hill you stand on? BMX, skate and snow sports mega sponsor since the 2000's? I hope you stay off the trails that get the funding they need around here, just boycott them.
  • 3 1
 @stunnanumma1: that's something very different from a "vaccine." Your comment just show's your level of immaturity which is a common thing among people like you.
  • 1 0
 Can everyone pause for a few minutes? I need to grab a fresh bag of popcorn. Don't want to miss all the expert advice and metered, logical discussion from both 'sides'. Big Grin
  • 1 1
 @bman33: You make popcorn in the bag? Air popped is far superior. Just sayin.
  • 1 0
 @pisgahgnar: 100% agree, just don't have a popper and need to use the lame microwave bag. Big Grin
  • 4 0
 @bman33: So I just make it in a pot. Small amount of your preferred oil, pour in the kernels and stick it on high heat. Once done pour it into a bowl and then go back to your pot to melt a small amount of ghee (or straight butter) pour it over your popcorn, mix by hand and add salt to taste.... making some for an afternoon snack now I guess!
  • 1 0
 @vp27: yes, totally agree.
  • 2 6
flag ldhbaker (Jan 19, 2022 at 13:05) (Below Threshold)
 @mybaben: education or passing on borderline conspiracy theories? I'm not in need of the "education" but thanks for the offer anyways.
  • 6 6
 @blowmyfuse: You pretend that losing weight and getting vaccinated are mutually exclusive? It's not an either / or thing. Sure, being healthier is a great idea, but how does telling everyone to get healthier get us out of a worldwide insidious pandemic? It doesn't - it takes time and commitment to improve health, and anything that helps control this virus now is helpful. Anyone perpetuating the argument that "people should just be healthier rather than get a vaccine" doesn't: a) in any way understand epidemiology or pandemics and b) oversimplifies things in order to resolve the immense stress and uncertainty that they are experiencing.
  • 5 3
 @blowmyfuse: You lost all credibility at BMI. I used to be a bodybuilder. When I was 25 years old I was 6'1" and walked around at 265lbs.
Let's use your BMI chart for example.
That would give me a BMI index of 34.96, which I think we can all agree rounds up to an even 35.
The chart indicates 35-40 is severely obese.
Given that I walked around with anywhere between 7%-8% in the off season, I'd say the BMI index chart is wildly antiquated, and just the very fact that you have even used it as a reference at any point is enough of an indication that you have done little if any research at all. I found this whole thread quite comical at first, but now I think it's time to put your shovel away. You've dug yourself deep enough.
  • 1 0
 @pakleni: Where do I sign up?
  • 5 4
 @DRomy: we’ll, first thanks for keeping it civil.
Then I should have explained better, and I think I developed my point more on this on another post.
The problem we have with unvaccinated people this far is that they tend (on factor of magnitude of 10 compared to vaccinated people) to be gravely ill, therefore clogging hospitals. There are minor to medium consequences such as the postponement of surgeries and the risk of a triage situation that no one wants to see.

Hopefully the strains become less and less lethal and this will a thing of the past.
  • 5 4
 @Monotrace130: it is a tiny tiny risk and big benefit for the very vast majority of people.
There is a small minority of people for whom it is not recommended to vaccinate, such as pregnant women.
To me, that is reason enough so that the vast majority (95+%) of the population gets vaccinated.
  • 7 4
 @aljoburr: mRNA vaccines do not genetically modify you… come on.
mRNA is degraded by your body in 2 weeks.
  • 3 6
 Those afraid of messenger RNA therapy against a serious outcome when getting these current brands of Coronavirus generally clamor for MORE TESTING!!! Well 9.75 Billion of us are doing that for you as of this writing, so just hang in there and we'll let you know. Sure, some people are dying as a DIRECT RESULT OF THESE VAXXES, but I LIKE MY ODDS. We all gonna die, fools. Only Death is Real.
  • 2 3
 @suspended-flesh: Total population of Earth: 7.9 billion people

"Well 9.75 Billion of us are doing that..."

Ah yes, I forgot about the 1.8 billion friends on Mars, evidently.
  • 4 4
 @suspended-flesh: Even if you had 20 boosters, doesn't make there more than 7.9 billion people on the planet, lol. "9.75 Billion of us" is still an impossible and false claim. Mind boggling and dogmatic that you wouldn't just admit to the mistake, but double down I guess?
  • 1 2
 @mikealive: I could point out that you aren't counting the sub-terrestrial beings getting secret doses. But yes, for the sake of clarity, I typed something confusing and I admit that, here, on gilligan's island. Each dose being an opportunity to have an adverse reaction.

I should have said 9.75b doses have been tested on live humans. A drop in the bucket died. RIP.
  • 2 1

Yes, 'doses' does well to make your point clearer. It even brings it into the realm of being possible, some might say.
  • 4 0
 @Obiwankenoob: Well, i believe you didn’t get my point. As long as the drug development process isn’t ended, I am not sure if anyone can tell what the risk/ benefit ratio is. « 95%+ » is your gut feeling only and you are completely free to think this way. However, assessing benefit/risk ratio has nothing to do with gut feeling. BRA benefit risk assessment has a definition. Adverse reactions can simply not be ignored. And if you haven’t heard of side effects at the moment, then I am not sure we live on the same planet.
  • 6 3
 @suspended-flesh: the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine is fully FDA approved just like all the other vaccines out there (ie flu, shingles, tetanus, etc). So not really 'tested'...

And mRNA vaccines have been in testing for about the past decade or so (more specifically, for the flu). The Pfizer-BioNTech one was just modified to be for COVID-19 (more specifically, the Alpha and Beta variants), which is why it got the full FDA approval so quickly (or as what appears to be 'quickly' compared to other vaccines).

Most flu vaccines change every year for each variant, which is why they recommend getting one every year. The Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was modified to be for SARS-Cov-2 rather than Influenza. The concept (or if you're willing, 'prototype') was being tested for a long time before being modified for SARS-Cov-2.

So, 9.75 billion being tested on humans in not accurate. All the vaccines that are under emergency use (ie Moderna, AstraZenica, J&J, Sinopharm, etc) are being 'tested'.
  • 1 0
 @louiefriesen: Yes. I meant that the 'Test' subject is me and I'm OK with that. 9.75b injections, some death, some heart swelling, bloodclots, etc. I like the odds. No drama here. Nothing to argue about. Life isn't guaranteed. Generally, I take zero pharmaceuticals except opiates after Friday Fails repair surgery - love em, but don't need em. Didn't need the vax, but I chose to take it.
  • 3 0
 @wda1wustl: Here in Oz, we are no better then the US. We have just as many over weight and unfit people who would get smashed by covid. And just like the US, media moguls here have convinced us all that we are a great sporting nation, and that active participation in a active life is not required, just sit down and support your team….GO TEAM GO..!
They locked us all up, as the government is halfway to Ronald Reagan’ing our health care system. An they knew there main voting demographic (boomers), would all die off if they let it rip without good vaccines rates. And that would lose them the next election.
  • 4 0
 @suspended-flesh: can you imagine if Jocko Willink or better: David Goggins were antivaccers? Wake up at 4:am to do your research, be disciplined to write 1000 comments a day for a month. Stay strong!
  • 3 1
 @calmWAKI: Cheers. old friend. It's nearly midnight here on the west coast and I'm watching an interesting documentary on regular TV called Medicating Normal about the utter duplicity and insanity of Big Pharma. In order to get new drugs approved, they are advised to "torture the (testing) data until it confesses". LOL Good night - I need to get up and ride my bike to work in a few hours.
  • 5 0
 @suspended-flesh Cheers! Big Pharma doesn't steer things consciously. Indviduals in it may take certain actions but collective effect is not a result of couple of individuals in it. They are all interconnected which means we are all Big Pharma in a way. What fungi pharma can picture is that corporation can be viewed like a host like hour body, and we are organisms living in it. Some of your mitochandria may be pissed off at the state of things. We need to critique and correct actions of others but we have to accept the nature of our humanity and that if we do it too much we are just a little bacteria inside a cell. Covid is horrible - we'll see, vaccines will save us - we'll see, vaccines are a scam - we'll see. None of this will be relevant in 20 years and thinking "I was right all along" in relation to something that we have little expertize on brings no more satisfaction than chosing the winning team before a match. I envisioned Focus stem before they made it. Few laughs and so what... but drawing it was a time far better spent than being sour over Boost which I still am. Still working on not being sour over it Big Grin
  • 1 0
 @suspended-flesh: It's not Big Pharma. It's your country.

(Coming from the guy who lives in the 'Big Pharma' capital of the world)
  • 4 1
 France is pussy
  • 2 4
 @ReeferSouthrland: Who doesn't love pussy?
  • 1 1
 @jomacba: Canada next
  • 1 0
 @TSridesbikes: innate or hum oral immunity?
  • 5 0
 @pisgahgnar: , @jomacba :

All 3 of you did the internet thing where you decided to try to WIN A DEBATE and not FOCUS ON THE ISSUE.

A BMI of 25 or higher at 5'10" doesn't make you a bodybuilder. You're applying your personal build to the masses. The world population isn't "muscular cyclist/former powerlifter".
The vast majority of people with a BMI of 25 at 5'10" have visceral fat that they think is not all that unhealthy, but really is, Low resting heart rate, a great VO2 max, a superb max squat....they aren't a true indicator of physical health.

You can flip it and point out the Brad Pitt smokers with abs things. But that's not the point of anything I said.


And whoever spouted that crap about Mountain Dew sponsoring sports....yeah, it's a big part of the problem. If the healthiest things we do are supported and backed by literally the one thing that is associated with SOCIETY'S MOST JOYOUSLY IGNORED DISEASE - Sugar Diabetes -


Hell no! People are suffering from their own choices. Mountain Dew, Processed Foods. Drive Thru's. Nicotine.

I can have empathy for the person who indulged in these sloth acts, but I don't have to stop the world for the next decade while they may or may not slim down and give themself a shot at health.

That's on them. Not the world. The world does NOT owe you more time if you chose to indulge during the time you have had so far.

Those who have genetic issues, again...empathy.

@idhbaker: I don't NEED to lie about personal experiences of those close to me. I live in a BLACK & WHITE world. Every instance I listed....I stated plainly. None made up for some online accomplishment.

GEEZ!!! Why would I lie about family members & do a disservice to friend's family members who literally DIED?
  • 1 1
 @mammal: UnderRoos would look way cooler.
  • 2 0
 @vp27: I don’t disagree. Didn’t need 3 monthly boosters for those tho. Those vaccines must have actually worked
  • 4 0
 @Turboute: Swedes were good at getting jabs and testing. Comparison of statistics from 2 winters when you compare the number of cases to nr of hospitalizations shows clearly that vaccines work for keeping folks off intensive care, let alone morgue. with Omikron we are talking trippled cases compared to 2020 but 1/3rd hospitalizations, and death count is very low.
  • 1 1
 @Obiwankenoob: 2 weeks? More like 4-5 days for traditional mRNA. The excipients ( lipid carriers of RNA in vaccine) are degraded within 24 hours
  • 3 0
 @calmWAKI: Not to say vaccination is not part of the picture, but I think we're definitely seeing the severity of the virus drop with Omicron regardless of vaccination.
  • 3 1
 @blowmyfuse: If you look back, there was no debate. In fact, I really had absolutely no input into the "debate" until the point of mentioning the BMI, which is infact antiquated. That was my statement. It was not a debate. The majority of my comments have been completely pointless with absolutely zero relevant or useful content to parodize the thread.
  • 3 2
 @ldhbaker: Study Prof. Michael Parenti, Prof. Noam Chomsky, and Ralph Nader regarding corporate/state corruption and propaganda, then get back to me.
  • 4 2
 @mybaben: Chomsky also said “that the unvaccinated should just remove themselves from society” so there’s that.
  • 1 2
 @pakleni: no man meth for the climb !!!
  • 2 2
 @ldhbaker: Chomsky supports the pussification of all idiots who will do what they are told to do.
  • 3 1
 @ReeferSouthrland: I think we have a different idea of what “pussification” might mean
  • 7 1
 You guys know that virtually everyone of use involved in this thread deserves “retarded” tattoo on our forehead, we should be fired from whatever job we are doing with our stupid deeds being written into a world register of dumb asses?

But there is consolation. There is a dude called trailfeatures on instagram who makes videos where he comments on Pinkbike comments. He built us an altar. Give him a visit, follow his channel, help him grow the audience.

  • 2 0
 @Obiwankenoob: from the US FDA website: It is important to note that a vaccine is a drug. Like any drug, vaccines have benefits and risks, and even when highly effective, no vaccine is 100 percent effective in preventing disease or 100 percent safe in all individuals.
  • 2 0
I think that classifying vaccines as drugs is US centric. I was being petty anyway :-)
I don’t argue with the rest of the quote, it is always risk/benefits, not 100% effective etc.
  • 1 0
 @jomacba: I'm good with that. Mowtif this site would let you delete or esit
  • 1 0
 @Daniel412206: 1.4% chance of death from covid? You're on another planet
  • 2 0
 @Stmachreth: It's actually less, 1.224% in the US at least according to the current data available Jan 24th.
  • 1 1
 @bman33: So..... 1% chance of dying versus living? 1% chance of dying from Covid instead of dimentia?

1% chance of dying from it if tested & diagnosed COVID positive?

Every single person I know has had it and zero are dead.
I know exactly 1 person and she had dimentia, was end of life and had a do not resuscitate order.

Not indicating my belief of anything one way other...just sometimes the very specific context when quoting percentages helps me. Beer
  • 2 0
 @blowmyfuse: I have had it....twice! Not dead. I am merely reporting the stats on. 'Death's' vs 'Cases' on the Googles. (Total Deaths / Total Cases) x 100 = Percent death or 98.7886% survival rate or 1.224% chance of death. That is flat boring numbers. Factor in comorbidities and of course you chances of dying go up.
  • 4 0
 @Stmachreth: The original population-wide death rate without vaccines was about 2.0%, so he's not that far off. Of course it varies by age (mostly) and co-morbitities (to a lesser extent), so if you're 34 years old like you and totally healthy it's lower (say around 0.2-0.4%).
  • 2 1
 @bman33: Currently yes, but that's with a significant proportion of the population protected by vaccines a significant portion of the time. Pre-vaccine the death rate population-wide was about 2.0%. Lower if you're young and health, of course.
  • 1 2
 @jomacba: 6'1 and 265lbs lol. You were either a fatass powerlifter or you were on a lot of steroids. I love bodybuilding as well but that shit ain't healthy at that level.
  • 1 0
 @DylanH93: I’d recommend getting your vaccine from a medical clinic rather than the ripped guy at the gym /s
  • 2 1
 @louiefriesen: get them from the dodgy dude at the gas station that sells dick pills.
  • 6 1
 @bman33: no, this is totally incorrect.

Survival rate of covid is 99.9%+
  • 1 4
 @ldhbaker: Someone cares about your ideas?
  • 1 0
 @DylanH93: Given that I noted my BF% should give you an idea of my body composition.
Anybody that says they bodybuild for health reasons are the same people that say they drink red wine for the resveratrol.
  • 3 1
 @ReeferSouthrland: Yup - probably about as much as they care about yours or anyone else's.
  • 2 2
 @DRomy: "You have no basis to be upset with the unvaccinated." I beg to differ again...How about the fact that they are still taking up a disproportionate amount of hospital beds compared to the unvaccinated population ? This causes surgeries and other medical care to be postponed in some places. The numbers support that the overall number of people requiring care could be reduced if all of those people were vaccinated. Until they stop being a larger proportional part of the problem than they need be, people will still be upset.
  • 4 0
 @Stmachreth: Add in that until December 2021, there wasn't even a multi-test requirement to identify anyone who had influenza in the US. Not sure what forms of testing occurred in other parts of the world, but that's the standard only recently rolled out in the US.

There's a CDC map that shows Flu cases per week. Guess when suddenly the flu was real again? Shocking news...December 2021. And another stunner (I hope people know sarcasm when they read it)....Week 52 of country wide high cases of Influenza. But here I was being told that masks had stopped the spread of influenza, but that Covid was just more rampant and easily contracted.

  • 2 0
 @greener1: You could make the same argument about overweight people, smokers, or people who engage in high-risk activities (such as mountain biking). By your line of reasoning, I get to be upset with anyone and everyone — except for super fit, super healthy, super cautious people — because of all the hospital beds being filled as a result of decisions made by most regular people. Respectfully, your perspective is flawed in its narrow scope and does not hold up to scrutiny when applied broad.
  • 2 2
 @DRomy: So this isn't being applied broadly. Things certainly get easier to criticize if you apply them incorrectly. The difference is all those subgroups of people don't land in the hospital at the same time for those respective issues they have do they....when is last time a surgery was cancelled because there were too many smokers at once in respiratory distress? The only time people show up in hospitals at this rate are from ship wrecks, plane crashes and natural disasters and even then, it affects one hospital or at least one part of a country; this is global and sharing a common specific theme.
  • 4 1
 @greener1: We probably don’t need to go back and forth on this, but all the subgroups collectively do put far more people in the hospital at any given time. Plus, the majority COVID hospitalizations at present are for things unrelated to COVID. When all is said and done, hospitals in the US are not being overrun (many are short-staffed due to numerous issues, but that’s another discussion) and emergency surgeries are not being cancelled. If anything, unvaccinated patients are being denied emergency treatment, so I don’t see the purpose in targeting the unvaccinated with angry sentiment. If you’d like a scapegoat, then that’s your choice. I don’t see that as productive, nor am I not inclined to dictate what people put into their own bodies.
  • 1 0
 @ldhbaker: Welcome to earth son.
  • 5 0
 @DRomy: Your last post is more accurate than people can comprehend because they look at hospitals in "Mega" format, not "Minor" format.

Healthcare has been monetized and corporations now own hospitals in bulk. The result is that hospitals have closed at an alarming rate in less urban areas and care centralized into Mega-Hospitals where there is (no surprise) a sudden wait list where there were empty beds.

In Western North Carolina HCA has purchased our largest hospital, has ghosted smaller regional hospitals, deemed them unprofitable & choked off their resources.

What some people are trying to categorize as overcrowded hospitals due a really just downsized care, centralized to create a single profit center for the corporation with a cap on the number of people that can get in and NO competition or options for alternate care.

It's odd that we have 3 hospitals where I live, I have friends and family working at all 3 and none are overstressed with dying patients or the unvaccinated, critically ill. They do, however, tell of people coming in again this year that had Covid last year. They do say that the percentages are upwards of 60% of those hospitalized with Covid symptoms are vaccinated. They do say that the underlying health issues from the beginning that brought people down are still the overwhelming majority of those in critical care as well.

You can vaccinate 99.9% of the country, but if 60% have multiple co-morbidities, they're still unhealthy and susceptible to aggressive pathogens in 1 year, 2 years and 10 years from now.

Until I see a chart that shows prescription medications for hypertension, high blood pressure, cholestorol & insulin resistance dropping down....I'm not falling for it.

US Population has gone up 2 Million per year for 2 years in a row. It's a pandemic of sloth and gluttony.
  • 1 0
 @ReeferSouthrland: no need. I’ve been here awhile
  • 1 1
 @ldhbaker: Sorry I'm married
  • 2 0
 @jomacba: I fully agree with you on BMI being wildly inaccurate for those with lots of muscle. But you said 6'1", 265lbs, and 7-8% BF? Arnold, who was an inch taller, was only at 235lbs when low BF. Were you on a ton of juice or did you mean your BF was higher when not competing? That's far past the natural limit and past the juiced limit for that BF level. I've had tons of friends more into power lifting, super strong and heavy at like 250lbs but way higher BF level. No way you were 265lbs and 7-8BF at your height..
  • 495 4
 Looking forward to the civil and fact base discussion here.
  • 128 0
 I'm sure this comment section will go down in history as one of Pinkbike's classiest and most polite, next to Henry's internal cable routing article!
  • 3 0
 Haha. Great one.
  • 4 18
flag km79 (Jan 18, 2022 at 11:55) (Below Threshold)
 The fact is, my learned friend, no you are not. Discuss.
  • 77 5
 @nbram: Internal routing is the socialist agenda being forced on us by Big Cable to take away our freedom to put cables wherever we want and make me hide my red white and blue housing inside my frame but ha ha I painted eagles and skulls all over my frame now it's eVEn frEdomER do the research trust the plan sheeple! Was that right?
  • 13 1
 @number44: 100 Pinkbike Points for doing YOUR OWN RESEARCH
  • 7 1
 @number44: turn that into a meme and it’ll go virus
  • 5 0
 @number44: This is gold.
  • 8 0
 @number44: I think it's supposed to be Deep Cable, not Big Cable - literally
  • 3 7
flag aljoburr (Jan 19, 2022 at 9:18) (Below Threshold)
 Taking corona virus from bats, then modifying it, then giving it back to the bats?
Who thinks this was a good idea?
yet it happened!
  • 1 1
 @aljoburr: “Amazing. Every word you said was wrong.” -Luke Skywalker
  • 357 92
 "Athletes have a role to play in helping convince non-vaccinated people into the vaccine programme as soon as possible.”, they really don't.
  • 147 35
 Yeah this line made me do a double take. Selectively targeting a certain group to influence their followers is some F-d up public health policy.
  • 81 6
 Lots of top level athletes are seen as role models whether or not its good or bad. I would assume that more than just athletes will be included in this blanket vaccination mandate
  • 43 73
flag mattg95 (Jan 18, 2022 at 9:44) (Below Threshold)
 Yeah, it's weird. Arguing that the unvaxxed pose a direct risk to the health of others is a valid argument. Arguing they pose a threat by influencing the behaviour of others ( which I believe was the Australian argument for deporting Djokovic) is some twisted logic that negates the idea of personal responsibility
  • 45 12
 Not too sure they have to actively go out and campaign for vaccines.

I read this as meaning - just by being a professional athlete and role model and being vaccinated, you are in essence, "playing a role in helping convince non-vaccinated people into the vaccine programme as soon as possible.”

I don't think this implies or expects that all athletes have to overtly advocate for vaccines to their followers....
  • 29 2
 I agree it's too bad people look to athletes/actors/musicians to form opinions, but that's the reality which means they really do have influencer roles. It's forced on them but that's the price of fame.
  • 13 2
 @mattg95: Do you believe athletes (or other celebrities, or politicians) do not influence the behavior of others?
  • 31 5
 @mattg95: are you unfamiliar with the concepts of sponsorship and advertising.

Influencing people is part of the job.
  • 58 1
 Sure they do. When Elvis got the Polio vaccine on TV, vaccine rates went from less than 1% to over 80%. Don't kid yourself a lot of people are mindless minions to social media and personalities.
  • 68 38
 This is all part of the new French plan to completely demonize the unvaccinated. President Macron has made it clear he will try and make their life hell. It's time for another French Revolution....
  • 17 2
 @mybaben: Maybe this law will get kicked out because some politics has asked the constitutionnel council to approve or disapprove....let's see
  • 14 7
 @Cocorico: Good luck mate!
  • 2 8
flag sonuvagun (Jan 18, 2022 at 11:19) (Below Threshold)
 @old-banshee-rider: There's no cultural equivalent in today's America so that example lacks degrees of relevance.
  • 61 27
 @mattg95: even if you are vaccinated you can still get sick and infect others. Can't blame this shit on unvaccinated. Probably should look at the source of the virus. Wuhan, China we are talking about you
  • 9 20
flag greener1 (Jan 18, 2022 at 11:52) (Below Threshold)
 Why don't they? Charles Barkley tried this argument years ago saying he was not a role model for kids and never intended to be....But like it or don't get to choose NOT to be a role model. Accepting responsibility for your influence as an athlete and using that for the betterment of humans, children especially, is part of what separates great athletes from those not so great.
  • 9 0
 @PhillipJ: fair point, well made. I guess I'm thinking of 'people' in the abstract sense, like it's weird that a citizen is being expected to perform certain actions in the hope it will influence the behaviour of others.

But I think you could also make a good case that athletes aren't a typical citizen, they're public figures who's entire job is influencing others and representing certain institutions and their values. And that there's a different expectation of behaviour there.
  • 26 6
 2014 CDC report:
"Obesity and associated diabetes rates are rising worldwide.1–3 More than 1.5 billion people worldwide are now overweight, and at least 1 in 20 adults now have diabetes.2,3 Globally, obesity has doubled since 1980, such that most of the world’s population now lives in countries where there are more deaths attributable to being overweight than to being underweight.3 The prevalence of diabetes among adults aged 20 to 79 years rose from 5.5% in 2000 to 7.0% in 2010; 60% of people with diabetes live in low- or middle-income countries."
  • 29 0
 @greener1: I personally blame Charles Barkley for every bad decision I ever made.
  • 1 1
 @mybaben: Man, if that were true, FB and TIKTok etc. would be dead. It's kind of how a large number of humans function.
  • 24 16
 Fuck the nwo. Dont get shot
  • 27 25
 @weebleswobbles: No one blames the unvaccinated. Governments are trying to prevent the collapse of their health care systems.

For all the U.S. citizens: Health care systems contain centres with highly educated people that you can go to for help when you get sick.
  • 31 12
 This sports minister is pretty f*cked up and apparently doesn't have a clue what her role is. Whatever it is, it isn't saying what role international athletes have. It is one of the ugliest and creepiest things politicians do. Pick public figures (athletes in this case) and abuse them for your cause without their explicit permission. What if athlete A actually doesn't want to be vaccinated but really wants to race to keep her contract. She reluctantly takes the vaccine and races the event where this minister points at her yelling "Do as her and take the vaccine!" How f*cking ugly is that? Politicians should know their place and shut the f*ck up about stuff they don't have a say in.

I rarely use swear words.
  • 3 3
 @blowmyfuse: Just as your parents feared...
  • 2 0
 @robcartwheel: ??? What? Not following you...
  • 7 19
flag ColquhounerHooner (Jan 18, 2022 at 14:19) (Below Threshold)
 @blowmyfuse: and the world has USA to thank for this appalling situation. Fast food, sugar in everything, etal.
  • 17 3
 @ColquhounerHooner: Sorry, can't blame everything on the US. Availability is one thing, regulating it is the job of local politics and, in a democracy, the job of the people themselves. The thing is, the people don't know how things work. How the reward system in their body works (evolutionary trained to reward the intake of fast sugars) and I honestly believe that people really intend to eat a single cookie to then find out they ate a whole pack. Already at the beginning of the pandemic (or at least the western part of it, winter 2020) many people called for sugar taxes, lowering the tax on vegetables and other regulations to increase the health of people. Because people would be needing proper health when faced with the covid virus. Unfortunately bigger parties in politics voted against such proposals. Now, two years later, the situation could have been so much better. People could have been so much stronger if they got the help they needed to adopt a healthy lifestyle that. A health that isn't too picky about different mutations. Not sure how it is in other countries but over here (The Netherlands) lockdowns have been nuts. Shops for stationery and books (for kids studying at home) were closed. Shops for candy, alcohol and tobacco were considered "essential" and were open.
  • 3 3
 @ColquhounerHooner: Thank China as well, just don't analyze the ingredients.
  • 11 18
flag FuzzyL (Jan 19, 2022 at 0:24) (Below Threshold)
 Yes, they do! Companies should pull all sponsorship of athletes that don’t actively support vaccination. Because they’re not doing the job they’re paid for, being influencers in the interest of the companies. And all those companies have a massive interest in bringing the pandemic situation to an end, since it costs them a lot of money - and the only way to speed up the ending of the pandemic and the associated contact reduction measures is to vaccinate as many people as possible.
  • 14 11
 @FuzzyL: ok mini hitler, what about only giving the jab to the vulnerable like we do with the flue?
  • 7 4
 @FuzzyL: all hail the mighty company! be a good ant, have no voice of your own! do as you are told by those above you!
  • 6 7
 @sonuvagun: You’re the ant, if you make uninformed decisions, just because “those above” you plead you to do otherwise.
  • 8 5
 @BMXrad: Let me think a minute… hmm… maybe the difference is that the flu is endemic and there is no worldwide pandemic situation at the moment?
  • 9 7
 @FuzzyL: And if I make an informed decision despite the hysteria? Do "those above" plead us to do one thing, but are then caught doing exactly the opposite? Yes.
We can call it a pandemic, but that doesn't make it a particularly deadly one? No.
When the numbers used to calculate it's morbidity have to be fudged, warped or otherwise manipulated (to include auto-crash victims, not include information that the victims were over the average lifespan of the places they reside, had serious pre-existing health issues, etc) then I have to ask myself how honest that is. And when I come to my conclusion, I have to ask what motives people with power to gain, or wealth to accumulate might have for being dishonest.
If you think there's something dishonest or stupid about my way of thinking then what you think is none of my business.
  • 3 4
 @sonuvagun: My theory, and take it for what it's worth, is that the insurance industry is playing a heavy silent hand behind the scenes, at least in North America but likely on a global level. Approx 6wks after the pandemic was announced the industry essentially cut off coverage to customers for Covid liability claims. Their position was that Covid had quickly become a "named peril", aka widely known risk, and therefore insured parties would be limited in their coverage for covid-related claims. This put organizations in a bind, leaving it in their hands to take measures necessary to protect their staff, customers, vendors, etc similar to how they're responsible for mitigating slip and falls and other hazards. Courts in the US began to hear minor cases and the law was building around facts showing that yes Covid could cause undue hardship, yes there are measures one can take to mitigate risk (ie the courts believe masks, sanitation, spacing, etc all reduce risk of transmission). In lieu of leaving it up to every individual organization, government stepped in with public health policy to level the playing field, set a (ahem, somewhat) consistent set of rules by which we all operate to mitigate risk of catching and spreading covid to alleviate the burden from private organizations. Imagine if every person who could have gotten covid from an organization, had adverse outcomes and then tried to file a claim against the organization for not having a sanitization station, enforcing a mask policy, etc. It would be a gong show on the scale we're in now and the poor owners would be caught in the middle. Insurance risked collapse, which would spillover into banking, and the economy may well have been worse off than it is now (we'll never know). Business associations across our country were calling on government to set policy - they may have publicly been complaining about the outcome, but behind the scenes they were actively lobbying for consistent guidelines to alleviate their members of having to make the call. Now take that thread through all levels of the world we live in. International trade agreements exist where business can lay claim against a government for policy decisions that undermine their profits... countries like Canada have a duty to provide access to care (access to care is consider a right at province level) so if they do not take measures to ensure access to healthcare would the insurer who paid out life insurance claims not in turn sue the government for cost recovery? I figure they could, and knowing the industry at least one would try and if successful.... another gong show.

I could be completely out to lunch and much of this wild theory is nearly impossible to prove, but it connects some dots that otherwise don't really hang together. And if you know how insurance works, it is certainly a plausible aggravating factor that nobody is talking about. And I am admittedly biased, I hate the insurance industry.
  • 4 0
 @pourquois-pas: Agreed! Because it has been proven that no one makes better life choices than wealthy athletes or movie and entertainment stars. They are always my first go to when I have difficult decisions to make.
  • 3 1
 @FuzzyL: what the whole world every 3 months …..!!!
  • 1 0
 @pourquois-pas: You could be right, but how I see things is that I have to concede whatever goes on in the echelons of power, I am not privy to those inner workings and deals. And so it follows that I cannot conclude what the plan is. However, I can filter if there is overall honesty or dishonest with regard to presenting information. Since I have concluded there is a lot of dishonesty in that regard, I have to therefore conclude dishonest motivations are also there.
  • 1 2
 @FuzzyL: what does that have to do with limiting the vaccine to the vulnerable?
  • 2 1
 @Stmachreth: And especially, the vulnerable and health workers in poorer countries. Sure if it is available in abundance, vaccinate the healthy and wealthy who pretty surely don't need it to stay out of the hospital but still want one "to be safe". But we're nowhere there yet. People here are getting vaccinated to comply with regulations to go on holidays, thereby putting the lives of the elderly in poorer countries at stake. Not just that, also taking the syringes that should be used to vaccinate the kids there against measles, making a measles epidemic there more likely. The argument of the so-called "informed" provax peeps of how much good the regular vaccination programs have done for our kids is pretty grim in that context. Saying how great the vaccination program is yet actively destroying this very same program in poorer countries. How is this different from stealing one's money, splash it on shit you don't really need and enjoy these right in front of their very eyes, exclaiming how much you're enjoying your stolen goods?
  • 268 8
 Surely, this must be a djoke.
  • 57 1
 Aced it!
  • 14 46
flag nyhc00 (Jan 18, 2022 at 9:37) (Below Threshold)
 It’s a Djokovic
  • 56 1
 NoVax Djokovic
  • 4 3
 I see what you djid there!
  • 21 1
 @taprider: Novax Djocovid
  • 8 7
 Wait until someone tries to enter the country fully unvaccinated and the mom goes to social media spewing about some religious bullshit - Bahahahaha! Now, take that from NoVax Djokovid!
  • 4 1
 Novax JokeOfVic
  • 7 0
 Novac Deportovic
  • 13 5
 Kyle Warner professional mountain biker does not think it is a djoke. He cannot ride or race mountain bikes due to the vaccine. Death rate for professional athletes has gone up exponentially in 2021.
  • 283 135
 Measles vax? No problem. Polio Vax? Why not? Diphtheria vax? Sure. Rubella vax? Couldn’t hurt. Extremely effective vaccine for global pandemic that’s killed 1 million Americans over two years? Sounds fishy, there might be microchips in there, I’m not a guinea pig, I’ll take my chances and hop on the ventilator if I have to.

**Important note: many folks have very mild cases of Covid, and think this is because the virus was no match to their immune system: if you don’t feel very sick with Covid it could be that your immune system is simply not reacting to this unfamiliar pathogen, so it’s wreaking havoc in your lungs while you think you’re fine and dandy. The best test of how bad is your Covid infection is checking your blood oxygen saturation, some folks feel totally fine except for a bit short of breath, and end up spending a month on a ventilator. Stay safe!
  • 171 65
 This is such a disingenuous take on people who are hesitant towards this vaccine though. The amount of people that actually think it's a Bill Gates 5G microchip ploy is probably very few. If you treat them like they're stupid, the less likely they will be to cooperate. People have concerns that are valid and the best way to deal with this is through good and complete knowledge.
  • 143 95
 @lncorgnito: Treat anti-vaxxers like adults, which means we shouldn't have to treat anti-vaxxers with kid gloves and tiptoe around them and worry about saying the "wrong" thing. It's 100% their own fault if they don't get vaccinated; stop blaming their recklessness on other people.
  • 70 19
 @sjflow: Nowhere did I say that they should be treated like emotionally fragile children. Nor did I blame it on anyone else. If you want to treat them like adults, give them good and complete information so they can make their own informed choice. Again if you want people to do anything asked of them, calling them names and treating them like trash isn't the way to do it.
  • 31 1
 so glad to see Diphtheria spelt correctly.
  • 122 12
 @sjflow: if only people started treating obese people like this and stopped talking about how “everyone is beautiful”. Same with smokers. Let’s start pointing out that living an unhealthy lifestyle pre-Covid killed millions more people. Don’t pick and choose.
  • 66 10
 @lncorgnito: spot on, hard to label someone an anti vaxxer if they've had many vaccines but are concerned about the Covid one.
  • 92 40
 @lncorgnito: Agreed. It's part of the propaganda attack on those who can think critically. The strategy is to lump them all into one bucket of "crazy right wing conspiracy theorists". It's complete bullshit, and takes all the nuance and truth out of the discussion. There are SO many things wrong and suspicious about how our governments have responded, that it's worth discussing. But you can't discuss if "those people" are crazy anti-vaxxers.
  • 58 84
flag sjflow (Jan 18, 2022 at 11:12) (Below Threshold)
 @mybaben: If all these other people think you anti-vaxxers are nuts, then maybe the problem isn't with how you're being treated. Maybe the problem is with you. Take some responsibility and stop whining about how other people don't care for your conspiracy theories and misinformation.
  • 79 100
flag sjflow (Jan 18, 2022 at 11:17) (Below Threshold)
 @tim-r: There isn't a pandemic of smokers or diabetics who are taking up all the ICU beds in our hospitals, delaying surgeries for patients. There is a pandemic of unvaccinated covid patients with severe complications. We can acknowledge that smoking, diabetes, alcoholism, cardiovascular disease, cancer, and car accidents are important public health targets while still focusing on an acute crisis like covid. We can and absolutely should prioritize. Especially when the solution to the crisis is readily available and with no major disruptions to our economy: getting your damn shots.
  • 40 77
flag wobblegoblin (Jan 18, 2022 at 11:24) (Below Threshold)
 @sjflow: We’ve seen dozens, if not hundreds of young healthy people with zero health issues dying from Covid worldwide!!!! How we aren’t still in lockdown is beyond me. I personally used my Biden bucks to buy a positive pressure suit so I can mow my lawn safely, as well as getting my weekly booster shots. There’s no such thing as too safe, and we are all lucky that the governments let us have any “freedoms”.
  • 39 16
 @sjflow: Thanks for demonstrating my point. Well done.
  • 45 27
 @mybaben: No, you can absolutely have a political discussion (how our governments have responded) that's completely independent from a scientific discussion (are the vaccines safe & effective).

No one should ostracize you for having a skeptical view of government policy & messaging but to allow your political skepticm to cross over into questioning the safety & effectivity of the vaccines is idiotic in my opinion because the vaccines have proven to be safe & effective for the overwhelming majority of the worlds population by nearly all of the health and scientific organizations from many different nations based on facts & data.
  • 57 7
 @sjflow: if you think that people choosing to live unhealthy lifestyles aren’t taking up a ridiculously high percentage of valuable medical resources then you’re seriously misinformed… thank you for giving your comments some context.
  • 23 38
flag sjflow (Jan 18, 2022 at 11:43) (Below Threshold)
 @tim-r: The hospitalization needs of people who lead unhealthy lifestyles can be *planned for.* There are no dramatic spikes in cardiovascular disease patients that overwhelm hospitals. Their hospitalization needs are relatively stable. Private companies and municipalities can reasonably plan for the number of doctors, nurses, staff, and hospital beds to care for those patients. They can't do that with a pandemic that suddenly overwhelms hospital needs. It happened near my hometown. Google "Spike in COVID overwhelms Geisinger hospitals." You are being obtuse if you don't understand this.
  • 56 7
 @sjflow: Imagine thinking that being a smoker, obese, etc, isn’t contributing to your likelihood for Covid hospitalization… yikes.

Planning for people to be unhealthy and require medical care has nothing to do with the fact that these people are the most likely ones to be stressing the medical care system when they contract Covid and require hospitalization. I’m bowing out now because this is getting embarrassing.
  • 21 48
flag sjflow (Jan 18, 2022 at 12:01) (Below Threshold)
 @tim-r: Of course people with certain underlying medical conditions have a greater chance of developing severe complications and requiring hospitalization. What's your point? You have no point; you're just out here acting like you're playing "debate club." Why don't you start talking like a normal human being and not some third-rate mountain biking Ben Shapiro wannabe.
  • 43 6
 @sjflow: haha debate club? Dude, you’re arguing with me because I said that people should be pressuring unhealthy people to change their lifestyle instead of focusing solely on internet flaming people about the Covid vaccine. That was my point. You somehow missed that, despite how clearly I spelled it out. Go back to sleep.
  • 4 2
 @mtb-scotland: Mel Gibson would have slapped you right in your Robert the Bruce mouth.
  • 11 25
flag sjflow (Jan 18, 2022 at 12:33) (Below Threshold)
 @tim-r: No, you said, "don't pick and choose." Again, there are very good reasons to *prioritize* mitigating an acute pandemic where the solution, getting vaccinated, is easy. Whereas the solutions to the obesity problem are not easy. Don't pretend they are. They are completely different things. We can prioritize one thing over the other— while both are important. We can pick and choose.
  • 27 8
 @sjflow: you think the solution to Covid is easy and the solution to obesity is hard……. lol.
  • 8 4
 @loudv8noises: That's only partially true. It applies to those with compromised health at a 80-90% level.
  • 3 1
 What you said is a complete fairy tail, but very edgy
  • 16 35
flag sjflow (Jan 18, 2022 at 14:02) (Below Threshold)
 @tim-r: We’ve largely solved covid with widespread vaccination. The unvaccinated remain a problem; especially with new variants that spike hospital admissions. But we’re in much better shape than we were in 2020 when we didn’t have a vaccine.

Obesity is a hugely complicated problem to solve! The solutions are obvious to you and me: eat less, exercise more, calories in vs calories out. But implementing those changes in people’s diets and activity levels is orders of a magnitude harder. It’s much harder than getting a shot.

You know this; you’re just being disagreeable and super unpleasant to talk to. It’s childish. Grow up.
  • 6 8
 I just learned last night my Dell computer with a Core i7-3770 CPU cannot be upgraded to Windows 11! So, there is a conspiracy for Microsoft to turn every one of us into a chip that is compatible with Windows 11 in less than 2.5 years! OMG, you mean I've been injected twice with the Microsoft chip and I'm gonna go Borg? Guess resistance is futile!
  • 21 9
 @sjflow: haha ok chill out. You got all poopy because I dared to suggest that flaming people on the internet about vaccines shouldn't be your only course of action if you actually care about people not dying… typical though, getting upset because I disagreed with you and provided calm responses (which you also complained about, saying I was on a debate team, lol). I’ll continue encouraging a generally healthy lifestyle and promoting a fair application of health standards, don’t get upset about it again.
  • 12 9
 @sjflow: I 100000% agree that if we truly care about peoples health and lowering death rates then we need the governments to make some drastic changes: increase health/nutrition education, increase road safety by implementing better safety standards/increasing the requirements to get a drivers license, implement a fast food tax, de-incentivize people from partaking in unhealthy activities, require every citizen to participate in a government approved (ran by???) exercise routine every day, provide padded corner protection to every household and require helmets whenever a person leaves their home, reduce speed limits to 25 mph on all federally funded roads, outlaw or highly de-incentivize smoking, drinking and extreme sports, require every person who goes outside to be 99% covered up with clothing to prevent skin cancer….If people expect that they should receive health care through their governments then I think this would be a start to protecting the government’s population.
  • 14 20
flag mtbandskiforlife (Jan 18, 2022 at 15:34) (Below Threshold)
 @mybaben: While governments certainly haven't done a great job with putting out information at this point the vaccines have been proven and are safe. Hesitancy is grasping for straws to justify BS or other agendas. There are people on the far left and far right that have bought into the misinformation so you're right that it's not just one side. They've fallen for the BS or aren't smart enough to see what's going on. People who choose not to get vaccinated without legitimate medical reasons are a drain on society now. They are the reason our healthcare system is nearing a breaking point and why healthcare workers are leaving the profession or don't want to treat people. Their choice is why our premiums will continue to go up because our healthcare's business model is unsustainable with the number of cases happening. They are why care is either more difficult to attain or not available for non-Covid conditions now. IMO, if people aren't vaccinated now (without legitimate medical reason) any care related to getting Covid should not be covered by insurance companies and all doctor's appointments should be required to be virtual. My wife is a physician and people's decisions affect her and our family on a daily basis. Try getting information from a doctor, who's job it is to care for people's health, rather than people trying to get clicks or with other agendas.
  • 10 17
flag wobblegoblin (Jan 18, 2022 at 15:46) (Below Threshold)
 @mtbandskiforlife: Anyone who doesn't take advice from their doctors, who are regularly trained by the Pharmaceutical companies, on what to put in their body should be held down and forcefully vaccinated, IMHO.

And if someone IS VACCINATED and catches Covid, then they should have been boosted, and boosted, and boosted, and. . . .
  • 19 7
 @sjflow: you're a clown if you think covid has been solved by "mass vaccination". How is it solved if people who are vaccinated and have their boosters are still contracting it at damn near the same rate? Or when you hear about a new variant that the vaccine pretty much does nothing for? This coming from someone who is indeed vaccinated. We're taking the best paths possible to deal with this new worldwide issue but to act like it has been solved and everyone who doesn't follow said solution is a dumbass is absolutely laughable in this situation.
  • 14 14
 @NebulousNate: Being infected is not the important part. Breakthrough infections that cause serious complications, hospitalization, and death are an extreme minority. Virtually all deaths these days are in the *unvaccinated.* Surging cases among the *unvaccinated* are the ones who are stressing hospital resources; not the vaccinated. So it's not about being infected, it's about whether you're vaccinated or not. Infections in the vaccinated simply aren't as deadly by orders of magnitudes, you f*cking clown.
  • 10 10
 @tim-r: No, you said, "don't pick and choose." Again, there are very good reasons to *prioritize* mitigating an acute pandemic where the solution, getting vaccinated, is easy. Whereas the solutions to the obesity problem are not easy. Don't pretend they are. They are completely different things. We can prioritize one thing over the other— while both are important. We can pick and choose.
  • 10 16
flag noideamtber (Jan 18, 2022 at 18:28) (Below Threshold)
 FYI, Theres been more reactions to this vaccine than any other in combined history including Multi dose ones like the annual flu jab.
  • 6 6
 @sjflow: lol. Here we go again.
  • 9 9
 Funny you mention your **. Many are saying that even though you may feel fine after getting the shot the trillions of spike proteins your body is now producing to induce an immune response are also causing micro clots at a greater scale than the natural infection does. Maybe we could educate people and let them make their own choices instead of all these mandates for pharmaceutical products made by for profit companies making billions of dollars with no liability?
  • 3 8
flag sjflow (Jan 18, 2022 at 19:21) (Below Threshold)
 @tim-r: lol. Here we go again.
  • 10 7
 @sjflow: can I be the first to nominate @sjflow as our next president? He reel smarts and stuff.
  • 6 11
flag tim-r (Jan 18, 2022 at 19:38) (Below Threshold)
 @sjflow: The WHO stated that in 2019 heart disease caused 32% of deaths worldwide (17.9 million in one year, versus 5.55 million for all of this pandemic from covid). Since you’re the one saying that we should prioritize one health problem over another (whereas I said we should be pushing healthy lifestyles in general, not just flip out about Covid vaccines), why wouldn’t you choose heart disease to flame about on the internet? Especially since you stated Covid was easily cured, why wouldn’t you prioritize the difficult health problem that kills far more people? Go ahead and ponder that and don’t bother responding, thanks.
  • 2 4
 @unrooted: I would sooner insert a red hot poker into my anus.
  • 15 10
 @sjflow: I’m astounded people can still be buying the narrative at this stage in the game. Please turn the TV off.

You keep saying the unvaccinated (does that mean unboosted?) are clogging up hospitals. Where is that occurring? Can you link to the data because that is not occurring in Canada. As a percentage of the population the unvaccinated are a larger proportion but in absolute numbers vastly more hospitalizations occur in the vaccinated. Also statistically zero people under 60 without pre conditions are being hospitalized with Omicron so a mass vaccination policy across all age groups is pointless.
  • 9 11
 @tim-r: "why wouldn’t you prioritize the difficult health problem that kills far more people?"

You know the answer to that. We're in a *covid* pandemic with unvaccinated *covid* patients still clogging up hospitals in *covid* wards. In many regions, we don't have the hospital staff, doctors, nurses, or hospital beds to deal with the huge influx of *covid* patients. Before the pandemic we did have the hospital staff, doctors, nurses, and hospital beds to deal with car accidents, cancer, diabetes, heart disease, etc. Covid is an acute public health emergency and everything else, while important, simply isn't. So vaccination should be the number one priority for public health policy.

^Cue this a*shole putting words in my mouth in 3, 2, 1... "yOu BeLiEve cAncEr dOesN't KiLLLL???"
  • 10 8
 @sjflow: haha thanks for the laugh again
  • 7 6
 @tim-r: What a lunatic eh? Totally indoctrinated.
  • 12 7
 @tim-r: @tim-r: do you work bedside with covid patients? Im an ICU nurse and @sjflow is 100% correct here. covid ICU hospitalizations last at least 4 weeks, and that is what breaking the healthcare system. Usual ICU pts downgrade, but covid ICU pts rarely do - I have only known 1 pt able to walk out after 3 months in the ventilator. 99% of my covid patients are unvax, and since with delta they are getting younger and younger. We had couple of pregnant pts "harvested" their babies because mom is technically dead. Obesity, smoking, cardiovascular disease takes time to take its predictable and can be planned and managed outpt like @sjflow has said. Only vaccines curbed our numbers after the first wave. hospitals may have a shit ton of open beds but more often than not, no ancillary staff to take care of those beds if filled.
  • 6 5
 @Daxdagr8t: read again. I simply said that the same push of being “healthy” that is being done about Covid should be done about other lifestyle choices that kill millions more (such as heart disease, which kills a third of people on the planet yearly). And yet all sjflow and you assumed from my comments was that I’m denying that Covid is bad (which I never said). I’m saying that living a generally unhealthy lifestyle is also likely to kill a ton of people and should be talked about, then people like you just go off about Covid again because that is the only thing anyone is talking about anymore.

Telling people it’s ok to be obese and unhealthy and that “every body type is beautiful” and then railing about Covid is ridiculous. If you can’t see the irony there, then you’re beyond help.

I’m bowing out, you guys can go back to Reddit.
  • 8 8
 @Daxdagr8t: First, if what you’re saying is true, your hospital is an significant outlier and not representative. Second, maybe if hospital department heads and administrators opened their eyes honestly, they would realize their treatment protocols have been a disastrous failure and they need to adopt alternative treatments that are proven effective. Not to knock the hard work you’ve been doing, but you can’t take your individual experience as a sample set that applies to entire nation. Yes, the vaccine has been helpful, but our hospital system is not being overrun, and, on average nationwide, 30% of hospitalization for COVID (as opposed to *with COVID*) are vaccinated.
  • 11 4
 Those vaccines went through years of safety trails. Normally vaccines take 10 years to go through all the safety protocols. COVID vaccines took only 8 months. Kyle Warner professional mountain biker had adverse side effects with the vaccine (myocarditis and pericarditis) and can't ride or race mountain bikes anymore. Many other professional athletes have died with heart attacks and highly likely due to the vaccines. The death rate of professional athletes has gone up exponentially in 2021.
  • 4 11
flag mtb-scotland (Jan 19, 2022 at 7:59) (Below Threshold)
 It’s a tiny risk and for most people it had no lasting damage. Kyle most likely had a subvascular injection by mistake. Errors do happen but the risk is tiny and doesn’t out weigh the benefits. @tacklingdummy:
  • 4 4
 @mtb-scotland: So, you're going to give a medical determination on Kyle's situation without any actual knowledge so you can reaffirm your diehard belief that the vaccine is the end-all-be-all. Not asking you to say you're wrong, just asking you to take a step back and acknowledge that the vaccine/treatment isn't everything people hoped it would be, and that forcing everyone to take it is probably unnecessary.
  • 4 6
 @sjflow: Damn dude I have no idea who shit in everyone’s cereal in this thread. I guess some people just can’t concede a point, or accept they misunderstood the first comment you made. All it takes is googling “crisis standards of care” or “elective surgeries” to understand the strain Covid puts on the healthcare system, or better yet, hearing from nurses at reddit’s r/nursing. The unvaxxed ICU patients spend so long in the hospital, when instead there could be 15 patients who could have been treated in their place, if they had only sucked it up and gotten a shot. My area is in a “code black”, so if I get in a bad crash, I may not be able to get help in time.
The threats being made to healthcare workers is sickening, like if you really think all you need is ivermectin then just stay out of the damn hospital. It’s the trolley problem, except the one person tied themselves to the tracks thinking that nobody rides trolleys anymore.
  • 6 6
 @tacklingdummy: dang dude, I’m pretty sure half the biochemists in the world went into overdrive trying to find a Covid vax because of the effect the pandemic had on the world. There are nearly 20 different vaccines available for Covid, from over 100 that made it past the development stage. Governments and companies did everything they could to approve funding and to get rid of administrative hurdles that would slow down development, because everyone hates having to wear masks, have zoom meetings, etc. At this point, with hundreds of millions of people vaccinated, there has been many, many more person years of data for these vaccines than the ones you referred to as safe. It would be naive to say that technology has not accelerated the development process, of course earlier vaccines could have been developed more quickly if they had access to today’s lab equipment.

Finally, the horror stories we can find about vaccines may seem bad, but it’s mainly because they are so rare: it will never make the news when somebody gets the vaccine and has a sore arm the next day. Nor do we hear about it when a Pinkbike reader catches Covid and dies. But one single bad reaction should be a testament to how safe the vaccine is: if it were really dangerous, wouldn’t there be more confirmed cases of bad reactions, with the many tens of thousands of riders who received the shot? I’ll respond to your last two sentences if you can provide any factual backing for them.

Much of the criticism of the vaccines sounds a lot like “well if you can still crash and get hurt wearing a helmet, why wear one at all?”
  • 9 4
 @DrStairs: I have worked in pharmacy industry and science research (have a Biological Sciences degree). Safety protocols has nothing to do with the development speed of a medication or vaccine. The safety protocols is what takes the time.. You cannot "overdrive" or speed up safety trials and protocols. It take a lot of time to go through those trials and analyze the results. Historically, many vaccines and medications have been taken off the market for far less cases of adverse effects and/or deaths. Yet, there are still pushing the vaccines before they really analyze all the adverse cases. The people who are voluntarily taking the vaccine are the experimental trials and test groups.

Also, it is extremely concerning that the vaccine companies nor the governments forcing them will assume any responsibility or liability for any adverse effects of the vaccines.
  • 5 6
 @westeast: risk of blood clotts is way, way higher if you get Covid.

I feel like it's moot to inform people at this point, they made their choice, based on bad information, and ride with it to the end. Changing an opinion seems to be harder than figuring out the nuclear fusion reactor.
  • 2 3
 @tim-r: What you're doing is just a massive WHATABOUTISM though. It doesn't help produce meaningful dialogue. You're also constructing a strawman with your "every body type is beautiful" line - no one is saying that here
  • 5 3
 @tacklingdummy: You do realize that pretty much the entire world's pharmaceutical industry was solely focused on developing a covid vaccine and granted near unlimited funds to get it done asap right? Of course it went faster than vaccines in the past because the typical financial, non value added regulatory hurdles were eliminated.

Take some physical structure like a skyscraper building for example. The entire process from concept through design & engineering, permitting, construction must take what 6-10 years? If you removed all of those hurdles except the absolutely necessary design, engineering and then put every construction company within the country on that single project you're damn right it would be the fastest skyscraper ever built.

I get why people are made uncomfortable by that but once you understand that these projects are typically resource constrained and once those constraints are eliminated you can still produce something that is just as safe as before.
  • 2 3
 @loudv8noises: high rises are a great example. When I lived in Dubai, Chinese construction companies were building 30 story residences at unbelievable paces. I’m talking on floor of structure per 2-3 days. Living in those buildings would be terrifying after knowing that. Maybe the analogy is a bad one or it’s reasonable that people are wary of the vaccine process
  • 2 2
 @Mntneer: think about building a regular house. 95% of the time is a mix of waiting for the city to approve your permits, waiting for materials to come in, waiting for a crew/specialist to be available, and then you only get 40 hours out of the 168 in a week. If the city put your application at the top of the pile, the vendors overnighted all the materials, the contractor had no other clients, and you had 24/7 shifts, you can imagine a house that would take a year and a half would end up done in three weeks.
  • 4 4
 @loudv8noises: Of course big pharma wants to drop all the regulations and safety protocols. It means they can make bigger and faster profits, but at what cost? Cost to the populations with potential adverse effects and even worse and not assuming any responsibility or liability.

Buildings are not an applicable analogy because again, you are disregarding the time it takes go through the process of the safety protocols. Safety clinical trials, testing, and analyzation of vaccines and medications must be observed over time to fully understand how safe the vaccines or medications are. There is a complete unknown of the possible side effects of the new vaccines. It normally takes 10-15 years for full approval of medications or vaccines.

Here is a summary of the FDA Drug Approval Process
  • 2 4
 @tacklingdummy: 26-56 deaths out of how many hundred millions of people in the world? Even if we accounted for the worst possible case of several thousand death due to complications on vaccinations - work out the math - still less than 0.01% die from vaccinations. Seems some are focused on the odd minorities who have adverse effects from vaccines vs the mass who are protected. The mentality of protecting the few is actually more of a selfish one if you think about it. It's a Karen attitude that's stalling the recovery from the pandemic since basically the few seems to be making more waves and making more noise than the overwhelming masses.

However, what I'm pissed off about is why aren't the pharmaceutical companies set up a few million dollars in funds so that they're accountable for some of the deaths they have caused. These companies are making billions as the first world countries are buying into their vaccines and not accepting other brands as being effective. Yet, first world countries have decided they'll buy all available vaccines, protect the 3 largest COVID vaccine makes from any liabilities, and let the third world countries deal with their own problems. It's almost like Biden, Johnson, and Trudeau are talking Russia and China issues when out of nowhere, they forgot they horded all the vaccines and forgot about the continent of Africa! That's pretty much the kind of bullshit that comes out of this pandemic is actually all political grandstanding.
  • 1 2
 @CSharp: thank you for the information, and well written post. I used to believe the opposite of you, but now I believe exactly what you do. Thanks again.
  • 2 0
 @whoopsy: All mostly agree with your second claim, but the first seems to be up for debate. Have you watched /read Dr. Bakdi's videos on how the shots cause clotting?
  • 4 1
 @CSharp: The article states 282 deaths not 26-56. Also, the deaths are only documented "professional athletes and amateur athletes". It does not account for the regular population. Also, any deaths that could have been potentially caused by the vaccine of people with comorbidities have not been looked at or documented because they always attribute cause of death to something else.

According to WHO, there has been 2,199,476 adverse effects following vaccination against COVID-19. Majority of women (69%). Again, as I stated above, historically medications and vaccines have been take of the market for a tiny fraction of the adverse side effects and deaths, so they could set back and analyze the adverse side effects and deaths further to make sure of safety before administering it to more people.
  • 1 0
 its been known for years that adenoviruses can cause blood clots in a very specific circumstances.
  • 2 3
 @tacklingdummy: I actually took that into consideration for my percentage calculation. Still less than 0.1% are adversely affected. Obviously the benefits of any vaccination outweighs the risks. If the risks are like above a tolerable percentage of the population, I don't think anyone would be willing to take it. Like I keep saying, you can dig up all the "facts" on the net to support any claims by anyone, it's only a small percentage of the few who are making exceptional noise that's causing all the cuffuffles. If it wasn't for the small percentage of the people thinking themselves as the exception, this pandemic would've been over last summer! Yet, we're all here arguing about why we should or shouldn't be vaccinated while the variants keep popping up to prolong the illness.
  • 1 3
 @CSharp: thank you for the information, and well written post. I used to believe the opposite of you, but now I believe exactly what you do. Thanks again.
  • 5 0
 @CSharp: What are the proven benefits? First they said that vaccines were 95% effective and would prevent transmission as well as infection. Now we are seeing that is absolutely not the case. CDC Walensky just said the vaccines do not stop transmission or infection. Cases and deaths are higher with the vaccines than without the vaccines. What does that say?

The vaccines should not be even called vaccines because vaccines provide immunity. The COVID vaccines have proven no immunity.
  • 2 4
 @tacklingdummy: Guess it depends on what you think is reputable. Frick, every 2-chan, 4-chan, 8-chan, etc is doubling and spreading their info like a virus. So, take things with a grain of salt. I'm also not sure if you've taken note that the virus has mutated but it sure wasn't the same virus that first came out and was more deadly than the Omicron version. It's definitely easy to point a few things here and there and spew out numbers to make your point but the info becomes misinformation which others take it and spread. It's like what Penn and Teller said in one of their shows on how does a snake charmer climb a rope that comes out of a basket? It turns out that it wasn't magic or a slight of hand but it was one person or a group of people telling a story and it gets passed on from one person to the next - each time, the story changes and things get distorted. This is what anti-vaxxers are like and similar minds keeps spreading their BS around until you get to a point where nobody knows what the truth is.
  • 3 1
 @unrooted: Thanks, I got your sarcasm the first time.
  • 4 1
 @CSharp: yet you still keep posting about something you likely know very little about.
  • 2 1
 @unrooted: Oh, you're not a bot? Guess it's ditto for you Big Grin
  • 3 3
 @CSharp: don't waste your energy on dummy, he clearly has an axe to grind with academia in general. My guess, he did something stupid and /or illegal and got canned, hard.
  • 2 2
 @Mntneer: Any of those buildings collapse?
  • 2 2
 @loudv8noises: no, just massive fires that would have been prevented by higher building standards
  • 3 1
 @whoopsy: Stop trying to slander me to argue your case. Quite deplorable. That is the lowest form of debate when you can't refute an argument.
  • 3 5
 @tacklingdummy: Y’all antivax folks never want to acknowledge that Covid has killed 1 MILLION Americans in two years. If the vaccine only makes it 92% less likely that you die and not 100%, then it’s useless, right?
  • 6 1
 @DrStairs: and those were perfectly healthy citizens who took very good care of themselves!!!!

That’s why it’s ridiculous when someone says that they wear a mask because they care more about fat, diabetic, morons who don’t care about exercise or nutrition more than said morons.
  • 2 3
 @unrooted: damn, that’s a pretty callous way of looking at a global tragedy.
  • 3 1
 @DrStairs: I think it’s wonderful that the majority of Americans care so much about their health that they are always outside getting their exercise, and eating their vegetables….otherwise it would be up to me to care about their health…
  • 3 2
 @DrStairs: I'm not antivax. The vaccines are not vaccines because they do not provide immunity to COVID transmission or infection. They are similar to the flu shots in efficacy. The flu shots are about 25% effective on a good year and that is what we are seeing the COVID shots are. However, I still think the mRNA mechanism is still very experimental.
  • 4 7
 @tacklingdummy: The Pfizer and Moderna Covid-19 jabs are indeed considered vaccines. Check the wikipedia pages, government websites, public health organizations, universities, hospitals, etc. Where are they saying that it's not a vaccine? Antivax websites, crank doctors, etc. The fact that you even know about mRNA suggests that you know this already and are being intentionally obtuse about it.
  • 3 1
 @sjflow: Historically the definition of a vaccine was to provide immunity to infection and transmission. They all have moved the goal posts for the definition of vaccine to remove "immunity" from it. Just like they are moving the goal posts of what the vaccines provide. I have worked in science research before, have a science degree, and have read plenty of medical and science journals to likely know more about the mRNA mechanism than you.
  • 3 6
 @tacklingdummy: Well isn't that slippery of you. You admit that it *is* considered a vaccine; you just don't like the definition. Even if what you say is true, that the definition of vaccine has been broadened to mean something besides complete immunity to infection and transmission, what does it say that government websites, public health organizations, universities, hospitals, etc all seem to use this new definition? Why is it that the consensus of the entire scientific community seems to be standing against you? You fashion yourself a brave truth teller, but you're just a quack.
  • 6 1
 @sjflow: In my opinion, what we are seeing is very similar to what the cigarette industry did for decades. By 1960, only 1/3 of doctors believed that smoking caused diseases like cancer and other major health problems. The cigarette companies pushed back on any doctors and scientific studies that found smoking caused disease. Then they paid many doctors to put out studies that claimed smoking was safe. Fast forward to now, we know know that cigarette smoking is dangerous and has killed roughly 100 million in 20th century..

I don't think the vaccines were made to kill people, but I do believe that big money is motivating them to ignore any safety concerns and to pushback anyone who questions the safety of the vaccines, just like the cigarette companies did for decades. People, governments, bureaucracies, agencies, organizations, etc will pretty much support and say pretty much anything if the price is right.
  • 6 2
 @sjflow: You're just acting as a mouthpiece for the establishment and have demonstrated no understanding of what you're talking about. You are welcome to keep your head in the sand. Whatever false sense of security or superiority that gives you seems more important to you than actual understanding or critical thinking.
  • 3 4
 @tacklingdummy: So, conspiracy theories, innuendo about conflicts of interest, and misinformation about non-existent "safety concerns." Great. You're a quack and you know it.

@DRomy: Yes, I very much support the overwhelming consensus of the scientific community with regard to covid vaccinations and will happily share that consensus with others. Yes, that gives me a sense of security that covid vaccinations are safe and effective, as it should everyone.
  • 4 2

Damn son... go get another booster and give it a f*ckin rest.
  • 3 3
 @tacklingdummy: do you have any experience or education in molecular biology/immunology? Do you know how mRNA or MHC's work? This is school based level stuff here.

A vaccine primes the immune system - not all vaccines are 100% at stopping infection
  • 2 1
 @sjflow: Questioning the safety data of the vaccines should always be open for discussion and scrutiny when there is plenty of data showing adverse effects from the vaccines. Science is always based on questioning the data and findings. However, now questioning the safety of the vaccines or the data of the vaccines is not allowed? Something is seriously wrong with that.

Calling me a quack is the lowest form of debate. Just debate the subject if you have anything to refute.
  • 2 1
 @mtb-scotland: Yes, I have BS in biological sciences degree and work in science research at Stanford before (cholesterol research). So, I do have a science background. What is your science background?

Yes, I have read plenty of medical/science journals on the mRNA mechanism. It is a very simple concept. Where is the proof that the vaccines are priming the immune system? Cases and deaths in the US are higher with the vaccines than without. Again (as I stated above) historically the definition of vaccines were to provide immunity. They have changed the definition of vaccine to remove the word "immunity" from the definition. That is not my opinion.
  • 2 3
 @tacklingdummy: Really? the main side effects of the mRNA vaccines is myocarditis and pericarditis. I would love to see the data that gives you that idea. Study in Denmark found that 48 people out of 3.5 million people who had been double vaccinated were diagnosed with myocarditis, 5.1 million Israelis with 136 cases. pretty sure most people got a sore arm, fewer maybe felt a bit shit with fewer still having to take a couple of days off work
  • 2 3
 @tacklingdummy: PhD and over a decade of research in antibodies, microbiology, structural biology and fatty acid oxidation before I switched to teaching.

where is the proof. well you inject the vaccine into a living creature and the body then makes antibodies to said antigen and creates a T-cell response to kill virus infected cells. That is pretty basic immunohistochemistry right there.
  • 2 0
 @mtb-scotland: Good for you on your science credentials. I'm surprised that you with such strong science background would completely dismiss adverse side effects that have occurred and that may occur over a longer timeframe. As you should know, vaccines and medications take about 10 years to go through all the safety protocols and the vaccines only took 8 months? 8 months is definitely not nearly enough time for thorough clinical trials, testing, and analyzation of the data (adverse side effects).

According to the WHO data, 2,199,476 adverse effects following vaccination against COVID-19 have been reported in 2021, with 866,558 (39 percent) of the injuries being reported in 18–44-year-olds, and 1,517,989 (69 percent) of all injuries occurring in women. Myocarditis and pericarditis is one of the main concerns because it is such a severe side effect. Also, as you should know, many vaccines and medications have been pulled from the market with much less adverse side effects.

Belgium will no longer be recommending the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine for citizens under the age of 31, after data shows that using it for the first or second dose of vaccination may cause heart inflammation such as myocarditis. Japan Health Ministry dropped all vaccine mandates due to heart inflammation (myocarditis, pericarditis) Japan is now labeling Covid “vaccines” to warn of dangerous and potentially deadly side effects such as myocarditis or pericarditis. In addition, Japan is reaffirming its commitment to adverse event reporting requirements to ensure all possible side effects are documented. So, I still can't believe that you are pushing to ignore possible adverse side effects or safety concerns of the vaccines with such a strong background in the field.
  • 2 3
 @tacklingdummy: I have not dismissed any of them. The WHO data contains all reactions and of those that may not be due to vaccines but happened after them. My son fainted when he got his first one. That wasn't a side effect of the vaccine. People are also more prone to the placebo effect so a lot of these recorded AE are actually fake symptoms.
  • 3 3
 @tacklingdummy: “Cases and deaths in the US are higher with the vaccines than without.” You present yourself as someone with a scientific background, but you shatter your credibility by presenting that statement as if it’s a knock on vaccines. Those deaths you mention, are they mostly in vaccinated or unvaccinated populations? Did people behave differently after vaccines became available (less social distancing and masking, driving increases in case numbers)? Are there any new variants that the vaccines are less able to prevent the spread of? That quote screams to me of something someone on fox news would tell more gullible audiences who didn’t understand the difference between correlation and causation, not worthy of someone of your scientific pedigree.
  • 2 1
 @DrStairs: The moment you use “Fox News” as a way to trash the person you’re debating, you identify yourself as a non-serious person and a consumer of whatever drivel you’re watching.

All the rhetorical questions you ask of him actually support his point (which you missed) — there are so many variables with mass rollout vaccines that they require significant time and honest, critical scientific review before we can understand there impact. Of course any reasonable person wishes the “vaccine” was amazing and fixed everything and was perfectly safe. That’s not the case. I don’t think it’s a death jab designed for population control, but it definitely should not be cloaked in the blanket statement that it’s “safe and effective” because there are real, numerous risks that people should be clearly told. Then, weigh for yourself if the possible risks outweigh the possible benefit. This has all been wrapped in partisan political agenda, and very little of what you hear in the mainstream would classify as good science.
  • 2 1
 @mtb-scotland: You are literally dismissing them (equating them to placebo effect and a personal anecdote) in your statement about how you’re not dismissing them.

Is this the same narrow-minded perspective that you have when teaching? I would ask you to open yourself up to accepting more uncertainty and humility, especially having the responsibility of an educator. Students need more than one-lane, prescriptive ideology.
  • 2 2
 @DRomy: I literally complimented his scientific pedigree in that sentence. There’s no point arguing with folks so steeped in bad faith, you just choose the most convenient tangent to attack.
  • 4 1
 @DrStairs: Here you go. An article that compiled the data from the UK government. Since August 2021 to Dec 2021, 4 out of 5 deaths are the vaccinated. Also, the cases and hospitalizations are much higher in regards to the vaccinated percent rate (71.6% fully vaccinated in UK). In theory, the with that high rate of fully vaccinated, the cases, hospitalizations, and deaths should be much lower if the vaccines were quite effective.

Also, the UK has dropped all vaccine passports and mask mandates. Perhaps because of the data they have just compiled?

Here is a link to the article. Within the article, they compiled the links to the UK government data and you can look at the real data yourself. I did.
  • 1 4
 @tacklingdummy: That sort of thing pops up from time-to-time and it's routinely debunked. The key insights here are (a) in a highly vaccinated population like the UK, of course more deaths will occur in the vaccinated; but (b) regardless of the how vaccinated the population is, the death *rate* is always higher in the unvaccinated. See
  • 3 2
 @sjflow: “reuters” LOL! Anyway what the debunkers (LOL!) never include is vaccine efficacy claims. The vaccines are apparently 90% effective at preventing death remember? The 10% left over who are susceptible to death once vaccinated, are a smaller number than the amount of unvaccinated, so why are the numbers so high for vaccinated deaths?

I’ll give you two reasons, the vaccines are useless and deaths 14 days post vaccination (where in my part of the world 47% of people have died...) are counted as a C19 death.
  • 4 1
 @sjflow: have any of you considered the absolute garbage level of any of these “statistics”? Lets be real. No one knows the numbers. They have been manipulated and skewed from the beginning. And quite frankly it’s impossible to tell anything concrete from them. You cant extrapolate your way out of the debate.

Deaths with covid versus from covid have only recently even been separated and lets face it... those numbers should even be taken with a grain of salt.

Statistics are easily manipulated to promote any given direction depending on the source.

There is zero baseline of how many worldwide have been infected with different variants asymptotically.

Those studies are being made now but only recently as well. There is speculation within these studies that as much as or more than 70% of the world’s population has had this crap, either with or without symptoms. Therefore mortality rate percentages don’t mean shit either since they only compare to reported cases.

The simple fact is... we don’t know. We wont know for a long time. To keep quoting articles that “prove” anything is futile.

We know that the vaccines don’t work as they were first presented. That you can still get it, transmit it to others and whether or not you have been or have not been its a crap shoot. Roll the dice and trust that you are healthy enough to avoid serious complications.

We know that the obesity factor is high. Stay fit. That’s your best option.

Good thing they kept fast food drive throughs open during lockdown so we could all loaf around watching fear porn while shoving double big macs down our throats....its never been about public health and safety. Its been about power, money and control. Period.
  • 2 1
 @DRomy: not dismissing at all
  • 1 1
 @tacklingdummy: England has dropped masks, we still have to wear them. Also can you use proper statistics

just to note - the age-adjusted risk of deaths involving COVID-19 was 96% lower in people who had received a second dose at least 21 days ago compared with unvaccinated people.
  • 4 0
 @mtb-scotland @sjflow Both of your links to statistics is older (Aug. 23 and Sept 19, 2021 and January 1 and October 31 2021). The data that I showed is from Aug 2021 to Dec 2021. The vaccine companies claimed 95% efficacy in stopping symptomatic infection. Again, statistically the cases, hospitalizations, and deaths would be a far lower percentage of the total cases if the vaccines were that effective.

This Lancet article explains 95% efficacy.
  • 2 0
 @tacklingdummy: The dummies who believed those numbers had never even heard of relative v’s absolute risk reduction.
  • 143 8
 Looks like Gwin's back is going to be hurting the weeks of Lourdes and Les Gets.
  • 35 18
 was Gwin an antivaxxer? I guess this has shot down Ratboy's comeback though.
  • 55 6
 Pray the Le Gets away!
  • 12 0
 And MSA
  • 13 7
 @kclw: With how things are going in Quebexico right now, and with RCR being the cheapskates they are, don't be surprised if MSA gets cancelled. That resort is living on borrowed time (I'm taking bets on when the gondola breaks down again) and the local regulations on Covid are just confusing.
  • 5 1
 @m47h13u: We will see. Quebec was the really only province to host bike racing in 2020 or 2021. They have been either fully open or fully closed. Who knows what summer will bring.
  • 65 4
 @AyJayDoubleyou: I'd describe Gwin as being anti-COVID-mitigation, not anti-vax.

The article says proof of recent COVID recovery is acceptable in place of the jab. So Gwin is probably hunting down sick buddies like elementary school parents looking for Chicken Pox parties.
  • 60 83
flag thustlewhumber (Jan 18, 2022 at 11:33) (Below Threshold)
 Article should read -

"In order to ensure French victory on home soil at World Cups, all outside participants must have myocarditis."
  • 48 1
 @thustlewhumber: You know we don't need that Wink
  • 13 0
 @bocomtb: is there a link to Gwin commenting on covid mitigations anywhere? Not sure I've seen him speaking publicly.
  • 24 15
 @thustlewhumber: Joe Rogan? That you?
  • 11 1
 @GrandMasterOrge: Gwin mainly shared his pandemic-related thoughts via Instagram Stories. Stories disappear after 24 hours so I don't have a link.

I recall Gwin spent a good bit of his podcast with that-other-mtb-website discussing non-bike related topics. It's worth a listen for both the bike and non-bike content.
  • 2 0
 @bocomtb: thanks, I hadn't seen it so was going to look it up but that's a shame if it was via stories.
  • 8 2
 @CamNeelyCantWheelie: this is the greatest comment in Pinkbike history, IMHO. Really well done.
Separately, I can't point to a quote from Gwin, but believe he's largely left California for Montana and Tennessee and did complain about the political climate there - mostly since the last election. I assume he was pretty down with the Trump policy through the years.
Anyway, will be fascinating to see what he does here. Intentional infection is the obvious path I guess.
  • 5 2
 @AyJayDoubleyou: Jesus will save him
  • 26 8
 @thustlewhumber: Data has recently come out showing that the rate of myocarditis amongst those who've had COVID is six times higher than those who got it from vaccination. And myocarditis has always been higher for healthy active young men even before COVID or COVID vaccines - it's always been around.
  • 12 11
 @iamamodel: several sources have started to poke holes in that study as only Covid cases that went to hospital so your only getting outliner data as most with Covid in the age groups don’t need to go to hospitals so the numbers are off.
  • 15 14
 @iamamodel: I haven’t seen that data. I’ve only seen significantly higher rates via vaccination which makes sense as most young people have very mild symptoms to previous variants v’s the spike being distributed throughout the body via vaccination. Regardless, with Omicron and it’s very mild symptoms, vaccination for anyone under 60 without pre conditions makes very little sense.
  • 8 2
 @iamamodel: don’t let a fact get in the way of good conspiracy lol
  • 12 13
 @shredddr: Gwin is definitely a Trumper, though he seems afraid to admit it. The hardcore Christians like Gwin are usually the most loyal Trumpers. Here are a few of his Covid tweets, only a hardcore Trumper would be publicly promoting the completely disproven cow de-wormer Ivermectin. He also retweets a post critical of Twitter for censoring right wing idiocy and quack doctors:

Aaron Gwin Retweeted
Jul 27, 2020
Twitter censors the courageous Dr.
retweets a video of her speaking about the hundreds of COVID-19 patients she has successfully treated with #hydroxychlroquine, zinc, and azithromycin.
This Tweet is unavailable.

Aaron Gwin Retweeted
Robby Starbuck
Jul 27, 2020
Social media companies are censoring videos of Dr. Stella Immanuel and the other doctors involved in real-time because that’s what Democrats want them to do. Many doctors & studies say hydroxychloroquine works. They don’t want
to be right.

Aaron Gwin Retweeted
Michael Snow
Jul 7, 2020
Replying to
Yes. And a 'must read'
Doctors Break Down COVID Response and the Demonization of HCQ, DOCTORS TELL ALL - The Minnesota Sun
  • 8 0
 @jclnv: That study doesn't compare the effects of vaccination vs Covid infection. Why wouldn't you also extrapolate that finding to suggest that rates of myocarditis due to Covid infection might also under reported?
  • 5 6
 @jeremy3220: Because there are countless anecdotal reports of people with post vaccine injury’s being ignored when trying to report them. See VAERS. Not to mention the numbers attributed for anything pushing the agenda from 40 cycle PCR tests to to the death classification of anyone dying of ANY reason being labeled a C19 death.

Here’s what happens when you have almost zero C19 in your population and you start mass vaccination.
  • 8 5
 @jclnv: Countless anecdotes!

Imma go with the scientists on this one. You keep fire hosing everything you can find at people though. Between the studies you don't understand and countless anecdotes something will stick.
  • 6 1
 @jclnv: the plural of anecdote is not data.
  • 3 6
 @jeremy3220: What “scientists”? And what do they “go with”? You mean the scientists that said kids were getting diabetes from C19? The scientists who advised vaccination of 5-11 year olds? I don’t think you understand how ‘the science’ works.

Here’s an opinion by a doctor about the ‘science’ that you should watch.
  • 3 4
 @GrandMasterOrge @jeremy3220:
Funny thing is that the mentioned underreporting by jclnv is a scientific fact.

"Adverse events from drugs and vaccines are common, but underreported. Although 25% of
ambulatory patients experience an adverse drug event, less than 0.3% of all adverse drug events
and 1-13% of serious events are reported to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).
Likewise, fewer than 1% of vaccine adverse events are reported. Low reporting rates preclude or
slow the identification of “problem” drugs and vaccines that endanger public health. New
surveillance methods for drug and vaccine adverse effects are needed."

Link: (p. 6)
  • 2 0
 @mazze: So they're probably under reported from people getting Covid too then.
  • 6 0
 @iamamodel: Yes, one of the ways in which Myocarditis seems to occur is after your body deals with an actual virus....weird huh? It's like people think taking a vaccine is the only way you can have the condition. People also seem to believe it causes permanent "heart damage" or causes some permanent career ending impairment for athletes. Not wanting to minimize it, but if you think you have symptoms of myocarditis, get treated; it is very treatable and you'll be okay.
  • 3 1
 @DoubleCrownAddict: I really like Gwin and I am disappointed that he, like so many people seem to feel they have to take the "side" or lean one direction on 8-9 issues their political party seems to lean in. Instead of thinking about each critically, such as an opinion on a vaccination for's also masks and censorship, and immigration and the second amendment and on and on...
  • 3 0
 @GrandMasterOrge: That is gold! My favourite up to now was "If you torture the data long enough, it'll tell you what you want to hear." I now have a new favourite. And so succinct. Ta!
  • 3 2
 @DoubleCrownAddict: So Gwin has an opinion, big deal.
  • 77 1
 The photo shows the team mechanic testing the brake fluid for COVID.
  • 69 0
 Was the Brake Bleed Syringe supposed to represent the Vaccine Shot or something?
  • 21 2
 It would be reckless not to jab your bike !
  • 7 1
 Sram brakes this probably means we all gona die soon
  • 102 36
 Why am I not surprised at some of the ridiculous statements typed in these comments.
The French government have set out the rules for entry into their own country. Many countries have done this, its just the antivaxers who are kicking up a fuss. They didnt say you had to have the vaccine. They only said if you want to go to their country, you have to have the vaccine, you still have a choice. I`m sure REDBULL TV will be broadcasting it for all the armchair racers.
  • 24 8
 "Death to drug traffickers under Indonesian Law" is on the Indo arrival card.

How do people feel about that one?
  • 6 0
 @jaame: it was on a massive display before immigration the last time I passed through, scary enough when the most powerful thing I was carrying was paracetamol!
  • 5 26
flag jclnv (Jan 18, 2022 at 20:37) (Below Threshold)
 @number-6 Yeah who cares if there’s any logic behind the decision. Let’s just continue to coerce people into a pointless medical procedure they don’t want.

  • 5 1
 @jclnv: they’re not forcing anyone , if you don’t want it don’t have it !
  • 1 1
 @Matt115lamb: I think in Canada it’s the law that everyone has to have it
  • 3 0
 @jaame: To work in some sectors and do certain things but it’s not the law everyone has to have it
  • 1 0
 @Matt115lamb: oh right. I guess I got my wires crossed there. I thought it was a general mandate and one needed a “valid” reason to get out of it… “I don’t want the vaccine” was not considered to be valid.
  • 53 1
 This post is just to stir up opinions in the comments.
  • 43 0
 "User engagement"
  • 1 1
  • 5 1
 I'd expected much worse! The top one is the usual one full of humor -sigh of relief- and there's some good discussion in here. Also some of the usual simplemindeness from both sides of the argument, but hey... nothing worse than under an E-bike article.
  • 96 49
 Worth noting here that France currently has 300k+ cases per day. They have vaccine passports, masks everywhere and the president is trying to make un-vaccinated peoples lives a misery. Vaccine or not, this thing isn't slowing down so forcing vaccines upon people surely isn't the answer given the data we are seeing come out of the country.
  • 50 57
flag HGAB (Jan 18, 2022 at 11:15) (Below Threshold)
 Yes, actually, it is.
  • 47 33
 This thing isn’t slowing down? How do you know the rate wouldn’t be 3x higher without masks and vaccines? Despite using traffic signals and speed limits, people still crash but I’m guessing the rate would be much higher without.
  • 7 19
flag wobblegoblin (Jan 18, 2022 at 11:50) (Below Threshold)
  • 38 37
 Vaccines massively reduce the risk of serious illness and death from COVID. Vaccinated individuals were 96% less likely die following 2 doses of the COVID vaccine compared to unvaccinated individuals. Rates for non-vaccinated individuals are almost 938.9 deaths per 100'000 population compared to between 7.3-33.6 per 100,000 population for those with 2 vaccines. (All the data, from your own country, is easily accessible. See:

Requiring people to be vaccinated is an effective means against the pandemic and choosing not to be vaccinated puts you and others at risk. It is absolutely IS the answer and to suggest otherwise, given the data we are seeing coming out of the country, is frankly ignorant of the facts.
  • 29 20
 @nickism: the real question is how many of those unvaccinated covid deaths died actually from car accidents? Unfortunately, we'll never know.
Fun fact: More people died in 2021, in which we had 4 different vaccines marketed and up to 3 doses administered to the population (roughly 80% adult vaccination rate in most western countries), than in 2020, where no vaccines were available at all.
  • 18 19
 @mazze: The virus has become more contagious over time, as viruses generally do. The number of hospitalizations and deaths accompanying the high number of cases has remained lower (for some countries, much lower) than earlier in the pandemic when vaccination rates were much lower.

Vaccination isn’t 100% effective but it’s keeping people out of the hospital and from dying
  • 43 18
 @emptybe-er: You said it yourself, the virus became more contagious over time as viruses generally do.
What you failed to mention, however, is that this process is, in fact, contingent on it becoming milder over time.

The fact of the matter is, that the vaccine would be most effective, if it was ONLY administered to old and immuno-compromised individuals for whom the benefits clearly outweigh the risks. Because mass-vaccinating the entire population during a pandemic and tuning all their immune system to act on one single spike protein, puts immense selective pressure on the virus population... possibly creating immune evasive variants like in the prominent case of Marek's disease in chickens. Omicron proves this, as vaccines virtually offer no protection for it.
Besides, most covid deaths had a minimum of 1 to 3 comorbidities and the average age of covid deaths is congruent with their statistical life expectancy. For healthy young adults and especially kids, the illness is not very dangerous at all. This is proven by hard data, too. However, the experimental vaccine has proven to be especially hazardous for kids and young athletes. That is why Moderna and AstraZeneca vaccines both have been forbidden to be administered to less than 30 year old individuals in some countries.
I'm not against vaccines in general, but this is literally an experimental drug and I'm not willing to partake as a test subject for big pharma. By the way, did you know that those companies are relieved from all compensation payments due to possible future adverse events and that they tried to lock the data of their safety studies and contracts away for 55 years (basically until the current generation has died off)?
Making this product mandatory is not just borderline retarded, it's simply insane.
  • 18 20
 @mazze: How is this vaccine more experimental than any other? Covid is related to SARS/MERS so it’s nothing new. Not all viruses have the exact same vaccination process. Two of the vaccines are a new type of mRNA vaccine but researchers have been studying the technology for decades across a range of diseases.. Flu, Zika, rabies for example.

Thousands of kids have been hospitalized for multisystem inflammatory syndrome with ongoing heart and lung problems.. How many kids have had this kind of complication from the vaccine? Hello! It’s pretty simple. Vaccines and science work, if you haven’t noticed.
  • 13 12
 @mazze: I think maybe we should leave it to the real experts. Go ask your dr what they think you should do, just as you would with other major health concerns. You know what they’ll tell you? The same thing the world health organization is telling you. Enough with the paranoia and armchair geniuses already, it’s getting super old.
  • 4 7
 @emptybe-er: It blows my mind that people would question the quality of these vaccines, the CDC has been very open and up front about the efficacy of these vaccines.
  • 25 20
-"How is this vaccine more experimental than any other?"
Because it works entirely different than any vaccine ever approved.
-"Covid is related to SARS/MERS so it’s nothing new"
I never said it was.
-"Thousands of kids have been hospitalized for multisystem inflammatory syndrome with ongoing heart and lung problems."
Bullshit, you're pulling numbers out of your ass, the death rate for non-immunocompromised kids is literally zero.
-"I think maybe we should leave it to the real experts"
What the f*ck do you know about my professional background?
-"Enough with the paranoia and armchair geniuses already, it’s getting super old."
Coming from the guy advocating the FORCE VACCINATION OF LITERALLY EVERY PERSON ON EARTH out of his own paranoia. Joke is on you.
  • 2 4
 @emptybe-er: woohoo! I passed your quiz!!!!!
  • 2 3
 @emptybe-er: how do you know it would be?
  • 15 10
 @mazze: How is listening to the world health organization/qualified professionals vs. listening to someone in the comment section now considered paranoia?

If you’re caught up on this vaccination being different than others, maybe just don’t be. I’d personally find it more curious if the covid vaccine ended up being exactly the same as the mumps or polio vaccine. That would seem rather suspicious to me. Vaccines are changing just like everything else, hopefully evolving.
Sharing complicated conspiracy theories on the other hand, that’s definitely checking the box for paranoia. It’s also a privileged BS attitude. And you don’t see anyone that isn’t a complete throbber resorting to CAPS to make a point.
  • 6 6
 @unrooted: Yeah? Well people not trusting science/experts during a pandemic and instead falling for conspiracy theories left and right reinforces my hope for society as a whole. Just when I was beginning to worry that we’re running short on morons, whew
  • 8 8
 @emptybe-er: have you noticed how doctors and scientists who speak out against the narrative are punished?
  • 8 8
 @emptybe-er: What “scientists and experts”? The entire response to this pandemic in most western nations is a vaccine only, dictated by pharmaceutical corporations.
  • 8 2
 @jclnv: I guess you could flex or make angry faces at the virus. Just about as good as the other non-medical advice going around.
  • 6 5
 @FaahkEet: Look at the vaccination rate of India and the US, then compare the number of deaths and get back to me with an explanation.
  • 2 4
 @emptybe-er: Listening to the WHO as you mention is an excellent idea. Allow me to quote from a WHO speech from about a year ago.

But all of this work is at risk. I think Dag-Inge said it, and I’m sorry for repeating it, but it’s important: As we speak, rich countries are rolling out vaccines, while the world’s least-developed countries watch and wait.

Every day that passes, the divide grows larger between the world’s haves and have nots.

Bilateral deals between countries and companies are putting the promise of COVAX at risk.

At least 56 bilateral vaccine deals have been signed, which fragments the market, forces countries to compete, and drives up prices.

COVID-19 vaccines are now being administered in 50 countries, nearly all of which are wealthy nations. Seventy-five percent of doses have been deployed in only ten countries.

It is understandable that governments want to prioritize vaccinating their own health workers and older people first.

But it is not right that younger, healthier adults in rich countries are vaccinated before health workers and older people in poorer countries.

Seems like a fair guideline indeed and I trust most of us are well aware of determining whether it is our turn to be vaccinated or whether there are elderly and health workers in poorer countries who should get a chance first.

Also the huge number of covid vaccinations (7 billion a year if not more due to boosters) compromises existing vaccination programs as they take up all the syringes (6 billion produced per year).
There is serious concern about vaccination against measles as they had to cut back on the existing programs.

Feel free to debunk those "conspiracy theories" as published by the WHO and UN. The stage is yours.
  • 2 1
In the Uk 17000 deaths over 2 years or people with no co morbidities, out of 150000 deaths, population 65m.
This represents 0.01 % of population.
This data can be found HMG ONS web site
  • 4 1
 @Murfdog: and that's deaths within 28 days of a positive test, not necessarily death from COVID itself
  • 2 2
 @Davec85: I haven’t looked but I bet the age of those deaths was very close to the national average.
  • 5 1
In the Uk the Omnicron variant is about 100% of the virus circulating, it is highly transmissible and will infect and immunise most unvaccinated that get it and boost those that are vaccinated. The virus is therefore endemic, we will live with it, it will cause the death annually as flu of 200-300 per day, which we don’t lock down for!! The ones that are susceptible will be old and infirm and/or immunocompromised.
Western Europe should recind all legislation and open up everything as it it was prior to covid by mid summer with no restrictions passports or anything, otherwise it smacks of population control. This basically goes against what Macron is trying to do in France, but he will be proved wrong and to be an Idiot
  • 1 2
 @emptybe-er: Sorry mate, you claimed to listen to the WHO yet you also claim that everyone in the rich west should get vaccinated quickly. I helped you with some WHO articles (and one from the UN). I say it feels wrong for me as a healthy adult in a rich western country to use a vaccine and a syringe at the expense of someone else who needs it more than me. Could you now use all your reason, logic and knowledge to blast my statement? I gave you the stage and you gave a no-show. Please step up.
  • 2 0
 @vinay: My guy, tldr as usual. I regret the few times I’ve untangled verbosity from you. Please, for the good of mankind, try to be concise. Especially when arguing
  • 2 0
 @vinay: Thinking too hard (with poor results) again. I’m sorry but when I see vinay I usually just skim the first few sentences until I confirm that it is, in fact, more wordy drivel. Sorry if my lack of interest has hurt your feelings but I and other people avoid arguing with you because it would be far too time consuming and also not satisfying (nothing learned). Go think out loud somewhere else.
  • 2 2
 @westeast: ah nope. Have you noticed how people seem to have lost all reasoning and start to believe crap like this? That I have noticed. Keep the lid screwed on, dude
  • 2 1
 @jclnv: The same scientists and experts you listen to about everything else. Why chose a pandemic as a time to start thinking you’re more educated on Covid than a respected dr? You aren’t.
  • 2 1
 @emptybe-er: I don’t listen to them about everything else. It’s simply information that you have to decide makes sense. I think you would be dumb if you did anything else. For example, the Neil Ferguson computer modelled data that the majority of the world based its response to C19 on was clearly at odds with the reality on the Diamond Princess, so I knew it was junk science from day one.

You obviously just blindly follow narratives. Good for you but don’t expect everyone to do the same.
  • 1 1
 @emptybe-er: Dude, about half that post was a tiny quote from a WHO speech. Three urls to help you read the full article. The rest (the part I actually wrote myself) is a fraction of what you've written yourself in this single thread. How can you even claim to follow the WHO if you can't even work yourself through a fraction of a single WHO speech?
  • 1 2
 @jclnv: Since you like "doing your own research," maybe you should research how to qualify for a Herman Cain Award.
  • 1 1
 @sjflow: There’s a 0.16% chance of death in my demographic. That’s okay with me, if you want to live your life dictated by fear that’s your choice. Although I question your choice of recreational activity as you have far higher odds of being paralyzed while mountain biking. Is it because you don’t have the government and media propagandizing you on a daily basis about those risks that you seem less concerned?
  • 1 1
 @jclnv: I don't think about covid at all. I'm vaccinated.
  • 2 1
 @sjflow: Great, so you have taken vaccines that will distribute the spike protein throughout your bodies internal organs and will subsequently caused multiple micro clots in tissue that doesn’t regenerate. For a respiratory virus that you could have been asymptomatic or only had mild symptoms. Your survival rate from the far more aggressive Alpha variant is 99.9996%. You really need to rethink your cost/benefit analysis.
  • 1 0
 @jclnv: Cost: sore arm, bad night's sleep, and some chills. Benefit: I don't have to think about covid at all. I'm vaxxed and relaxed.
  • 2 1
 @sjflow: until you'll be reminded by the government to get your next booster shot or else be outlawed, lol.
Imagine thinking we non-vaxxed are worried about getting covid, you clown.
Covid is the least of our worries.
  • 1 1
 @sjflow: I highly suspect you have no idea what the effects on your body the vaccine has had. Did you carry out of Vo2 max test pre and post vaccination to see if there has been a reduction? Did you get a D-dimer test post vaccination? Who often do you stress your cardio vascular system? Why do think athletes are collapsing with cardiac issues at 300% higher than normal rate?

BTW, you didn’t have to worry about C19, prior to vaccination. The government and pharmaceutical corporations told you to, and you believed them.
  • 1 2
 @sjflow: You had two shots? Ok, let's say one was to increase global inequality (caused by our governments by not following to WHO Covax program as intended, but make bilateral deals with the pharmaceutical corporations so that could hoard vaccines to jab the wealthy healthy before the anyone could vaccinate the health workers and elderly in poorer countries) and the other was to sabotage the running measles vaccination programs in Africa (by hoarding the syringes). Let's add that to your cost/benefit analysis. Just curious though, how much is your life worth compared to theirs?
  • 42 4
 I'm super pro vaccine. So use these syringes to get the measles vaccinations in Africa back on track. 6 billion syringes produced each year, 7 billion used for covid vaccinations by the start of November last year. So let's get priorities straight. Let's vaccinate... the children in Africa against measles. And obviously, I understand there is a malaria vaccine too. Seems to take priority too above vaccinating healthy wealthy peeps here.
  • 16 7
 Missed you man! Sad that Orient Dave is not here anymore I looked forward to chat with him. So what can we talk about in the middle of this sht storm? How’s life? Let us troll the world and make a little island of peace in mutual respect hahaha
  • 6 4
 @calmWAKI: Waki? Is that you??
  • 6 2
 @calmWAKI: "a little island of peace in mutual respect"

That sounds very unlike the WAKI I know...
  • 10 4
 @Tambo: yep! U guys excited for the launch of James Webb space telescope? We can finally see how long are bikes of Aliens
  • 2 1
 @calmWAKI: *only if they're on fire...
  • 3 2
 @calmWAKI: Better chill out in the eye of the tornado than go where the shit flies. Shit's been flying for a while though so yeah, could just as well make a little island here indeed. See, Megadeth and Jimi in a single post, this is where peace, love and mutual respect resides. Feel free to join, chill and have a little mushroom.
  • 2 0
 @vinay: that's a victory.
  • 1 0
 @Tambo: Good one, you're invited Smile . Wonder what the tune would be like with all the albums released after Youthanasia, not to mention if he'd also include Jimi Hendrix titles!
  • 1 0
 @vinay: longer than 4m30, that's for sure!
  • 13 3
 @vinay: it sucks really. All this sucks. Office job, dedication, discipline can be such a great way to escape this social media BS. And Jesus, MTB sucks so badly. I saw a video of a guy who broke spine on a fricking green trail because he never learned basics of jumping. A thpical friday fail, bam! You’re on a wheelchair. How do we allow this to happen? People will talk about antisquat or some stupid reach, and there are people who will break their neck few minutes after they probably talked about Trek getting a swat box. Away from family, riding with folks who pretend to be your friend because it feels better to ride with bros than alone. This sucks. Especially this inclusive BS. Nobody welcomes anybody with open arms, they just want you to spend your money. They don’t care. Universe doesn’t care…
  • 1 1
 @calmWAKI: spitting truth
  • 1 6
flag wobblegoblin (Jan 18, 2022 at 18:11) (Below Threshold)
 I’m more pro vaccine than you are.
  • 2 0
 @calmWAKI: Sorry to hear you feel like this mate. Not going to downplay what you see or experience, but I'd say it also matters hugely on where you look and what you do. I'd say there is more awareness and acceptance of issues like fear, concussions etc than there was twenty years ago. And I also feel that people actually do care. Not only in recent years with Lorraine Truong, but also back in the days with Johnny Waddell and Tara Llanes. Sure possibly the bigger the company (hence the more people using your stuff) the less the company people might care but then I wonder, should they? I recall a discussion with a dude who was complaining that a doctor did help him properly, but he felt the doctor showed too little empathy. I said the doctor needs some level of emotional disconnect to be able to do his or her job properly or would otherwise just break down. If you design cars for Toyota and break down and cry every time someone dies in one of your cars, you'll be crying full time. A few years ago Olympic silver medal winner (BMX) Jelle van Gorkom had a career ending stupid crash in a training session. The whole team just forgot to remove the chain at the bottom of the start ramp which you can't see from the start gate. He's alive, he's still smiling but he can't race anymore. His coach Bas de Bever (also ex WC DH race winner back in the days) couldn't bear it. Even though it was a team failure, he couldn't bear it any longer and quit his job as coach of the Olympic team. So that's two ends of the spectrum probably and you can't tie them together. You can't have someone who cares as much as Bas de Bever yet can keep functioning properly when shit keeps happening all the time.
  • 4 1
 @vinay: I met him personally and he has a damn positive and strong aura around him. But that is not what I meant. I cannot express myself well without writing tons of text. I tried to say that I am deeply saddened about lack of self criticism in MTB and fake stoke. Riding with highly skilled "youngsters" Iately makes me think that the fault lies higher up for the most part. The line between MTB being a get away activity and a suffocating passion is extremely blurry
  • 1 0
 @calmWAKI: by lack of self criticism and fake stoke, are you referring to people's ideas that they are more capable than they really are, and thus getting into "trouble" (i.e serious life changing injuries)? I've been thinking about this a lot lately too. I think I saw the same video as you, young 20yo guy on YT on an old Cove? But there are other keen hobbyists who have been seriously injured, and I may be making a completely inaccurate assumption, but I believe they are all trying to run before they can walk so to speak. They see the badass things on the socials, and want to emulate. So off they go, trying to huck that big drop, or jump that huge jump, before they genuinely have the skills. Perhaps also our extremely capable bikes mask our inadequacies too. Makes you think about your own abilities and how far you wish to push yourself - or at least it should do!
  • 3 0
 @gravitysgirl: I see loads of what you describe, so This but also the issue that the industry's drives (also on the bike park and tourist agency side) and narrative of enjoyable thrill around a rather dangerous activity. I am not saving people from themselves, I do accept risks involved even though I may not be aware of many of them. Flow trails claim many victims each year, sometimes causing life changing (and sadly ending) injuries therefore it should not be advertised so carelessly. Riding bike parks and local trails is not a rollercoaster ride in amusement park.

Environmental aspect can also be discussed. MTB is sold as green activity while it isn't. Can't honestly say why would it be significantly greened than MX? Many people drive to trailhead (including me, even though rarely I still mentions it). Bikes are getting more and more durable but they still are not up there in that regard. The low end market is really bad on that front.

Financial aspect is also rarely mentioned.

Finally the sense of entitlement is growing, many say MTB is a wonderful community. No it isn't. Pretty much same as any other.

I don't mean that we shouldn't do this or that something is inherently wrong and we should bike less. Not sayign MTB is uniquelly corrupt. Mainstream Skiing is far worse. But we should be clear about what MTB really is.

I have kids now and have seen them crash and hurt themselves. I am reluctant to push them too much into it, even though I know, life's pain anyways, we do it because iti is hard, not easy - and all this.
  • 1 0
 @calmWAKI: Yeah, I get that. If it is easy to reach dangerous speeds, that's what's dangerous. Big travel on a flow trail as we're seeing now, but remember the same goes for road bikes on tarmac. It may be easy to go fast and stay on the bike but when you have to bail, chances are slim you're going to come off well. And if you do land on your feet, on those shoes with exposed cleats... Better start on narrow singletrack in the woods with roots and stuff where even 20km/h feels fast and keeps you on your toes, but crashing isn't much worse than running down slight descend. Could hurt too, but it should be something most people could come away with fairly well. Other side of it is though that the Velosolutions pumptracks we see now are pretty safe yet build the essential skills to ride gracefully. It just wasn't like that back in the days.

So yeah, there are goods and bads. Stick with the goods.
  • 2 0
 @vinay: I am just trying disassociate myself from it but not in an elitist way. I am not a purist. I am not trying to bend everything to my likes. I am just stepping aside tring navigate around others doing what they think they are doing. Trying to put it together in my head to stick to the goods as you call it. But MTB as a whole got too big for me haha.
  • 2 0
 @calmWAKI: I signed up again just now to say Hi, I’m not sure whether I’m glad to see you back here or not; genuinely, because I myself have achieved far more in my life after finally pulling the plug on this place and I wouldn’t want you to waste any more of your time on, well, you know. I’m not even sure if I’ll stick around beyond the occasional lurk. Even this is stopping me getting out!!!

I look forward to some more interesting, thought provoking ideas exchanges with you Sir; but not too many I hope! We have families who need us and mean more to us than this place!! I’m having such a fantastic time watching (and hopefully helping) my astute, young adult daughter navigate through the living hell that is growing up well rounded in the 2020s that that comes first. I’m pretty confident that if you are approaching raising your kids with the same level of thought you give to ideas that others dismiss because it shakes their grip on their personal reality, then you will be bringing perspectives into your children’s lives that they will truly appreciate as they make their way onwards!

Right, 30 mins later than planned, I’m out of here for a ride firmly within my skill set!!
Stay calm.
  • 1 0
 @calmWAKI: Back when I was a kid, I thought competition was one big party. Especially something like the Olympics, having top athletes of different disciplines in one place sure must have been inspirational. Already in my teens learned something was fishy. Just to learn what happened to DDR athletes, how they were a mere tool to support national ego. Dragged in from a young age, gone through physical and mental abuse, destroyed for life, ditched when they were no longer good. So that was then. What do we have now? Still so many Olympics held on conflicted land, under notorious regimes, the upcoming World Championships soccer being held in stadiums built by slaves, in another country that doesn't support basic human rights. I don't care one bit about F1 car racing but living in The Netherlands, it is hard to miss what's going on. There is this dude who lands his car on top of his closest competitor and just walks away without checking whether his competitor is ok. He eventually wins the series and is being awarded the "sportsman of the year" title. Another nominee happened to knock down an official who crossed the Olympic BMX track without looking. The athlete cracks his kneecap yet immediately goes back to check how the official is doing. And he eventually goes on to win Olympic gold. Yet this man doesn't win the "sportsman" title. Really, what does being a "sportsman" imply these days?

In this big mess of elite level competition, I think mountainbiking is relatively fine. All good? I think you need to know the details to know for sure. But then again in these other competitions where the level that's visible to the public is already rotten, I wouldn't expect the details to be pretty either so mountainbiking still comes away relatively fine.

Aside from my rant about top level competition, I still believe recreation or competition on a lower level (where your life doesn't depend/rely on it) can/should be whatever you want it to be. The main thing is that people understand about ownership, about the level (intrinsic or extrinsic) of their own motivation. Sure it can be ugly when someone wants to trick you into something you don't actually want, but dealing with that is something anyone should learn from a young age. As it doesn't just apply to sports, but also to relations, career, buying habits, health and whatnot. And again, I feel that the increasing popularity of pumptrack riding is the best thing ever for the sport. And not in the least because the heaviest marketed drivers for new gear (suspension, drivetrain, tires, longer/slacker geometry, bigger wheels) are pretty irrelevant there.
  • 2 0
 @vinay: soccer, F1 all sorts of mass psychosis are surely worse than MTB, but the way I see it, it's irrelvant. MTB is a poser fest with high percentage of being inconsiderate and just not giving much sht. Todays visit to dirt jumps didn't make it any easier for me to like MTBers. Everything was soft and wet, yet a bunch of a*sholes decided to ride anyways, destroyed the hell out of the place and left without a singel thought of repairing anything. It's no surprise to me that a person with 2.6" Specialized tires could do such thing.

So I am extremely hesitant to make any blanket statement giving any credit to MTBers as unique group of sport people.

Pumptrack is great. But at the same time we all know that it's a sport for Beta BMXers that MTBers suck at. We all should know that 4X has always been a joke given existence of BMX Supercross. We can all observe how silly Enduro series is, where Downhillers absolutely dominate the scene. Finally XC will now see influx of roadies who will surely make a big dent. The zone for MTB elitism is shrinking and the only way it can stay sane is denial.

It will get better. There is a new generation coming up and they don't care about living up to dads expectations, dreams of Vo2max, FTPs, The roadie past is leaving MTB, dies with Boomers ability to ride. Their fond memories of X miles ridden are losing value. I don't give a damn if you've seen Tomac race or wached Steve Peat win Gold. The new kids want to fly. I see flying 10yr old girls. This is our hope. Celebration of skill. Celebration of what you can and cannot, celebration of progress, rather than who the hell you think you are, where you've been and what you have.
  • 48 13
 Wonder if any will ask Kyler Warner for advice.
  • 4 1
 Waiting for this comment. And that line that they don't know any mt bikers vaccine status is complete bs.
  • 16 11
 Incredible not a word of PB mentioning Kyler Case plus other 12.000 affected.... Seemd if any component of your bike could cause damage there is instantly a recall from the brands.... But something experimental so many are taking with severe risk and no liability, and having a failure for life in your health even death and is not news here... Outside has a policy here as so many other mass media?... Lame ...
Kyle case is just breathe taking... and everyone should know before taking these jabs .. plus no one is gonna respond for you if goes wrong when some are doing milions.... Really people has gone nuts... simply blind idiots.
  • 17 11
 @PauRexs: As I've written above, data has recently come out showing that the rate of myocarditis amongst those who've had COVID is six times higher than those who got it from vaccination. And myocarditis has always been higher for healthy active young men even before COVID or COVID vaccines - it's always been around.
  • 5 4
 @iamamodel: I can't find your post with a link to the claim you made. Can you post again please? It contradicts claims made by Dr. McCullough, that the myocarditis seen in vaccine recipients is (my paraphrasing here) much more sever than what he's seen caused from natural infection. Seriously, I'm just searching for info so please share the link if possible, thanks.
  • 2 0
 @westeast: Oh, I just meant I've written the same thing above - I didn't cite anything.
  • 9 11

Higher rate post vaccination -

Regardless, these comparisons are pointless as Omicron is an upper respiratory virus. There is zero risk of myocarditis so the vaccine has significantly higher risk.
  • 2 4
 @PauRexs: Should PB run a front page article every time some youtuber has health issues? If not, why is Kyle different? He's not a pro mountain biker, wasn't even a full time youtuber when he got ill.

If my mate Colin from the pub gets a discounted pair of tyres for an instagram mention and then has an anaphylactic reaction to his seasonal flu jab, should PB do full coverage?

What about the "12000 affected" that you talk about? Are they all relevant to PB? Who are they? Do they even know mountain bikes exist? Do they want their medical info discussed on some stupid pushbike website?
  • 2 3
 @iamamodel: so you are defending his health troubles are not related to the inmediately vaccination? Could you tell this to de 12.000 affected?
  • 1 2
 @bananowy: it runs it every time a pro changes brand or get injured... This doesn't really affect/brother us... But something you gonna take or are taking.. IS. It really affect s sporty healthy people the most... Just as opposed to that flu virus...
  • 1 2
 @iamamodel: thanks for the links. Too bad the articles don't account for patient outcomes that use early treatment protocols. That still seem the best option to me (no risk from the experimental shot and reduced death and severity of covid 19 with more robust immunity following infection).
  • 36 6
 What on Earth has happened to this community? I thought we were better than this. Either have the vax or don’t but either way don’t hate on others for the choice they made. There’s scientific arguments backed by quality research for and against. Stop for a minute and consider maybe there is no right answer and accept we’re all in the same situation together. Hopefully covids severity is reducing with each variant now and you can all soon get down off your soap boxes and get back to chatting about bikes on here instead of all this divisive bull shit!
  • 24 16
 "There’s scientific arguments backed by quality research for and against."

No, there is nothing lazier than "both sides"-ing an issue. There are not two sides to every issue. One side here is significantly more correct than the other. One side is significantly more backed by science than the other. I'm all for changing the subject and talking about bikes, but throwing your hands up in the air and saying, essentially "you're both right" is not the way to do it.
  • 14 21
flag jclnv (Jan 18, 2022 at 21:46) (Below Threshold)
 @sjflow: Bullshit. One side is a corporate pharma response masquerading as science. You must be clueless to not see how this entire thing has been politicized for corporate profit and state control. The science on vaccinating kids, passports, and mass vaccination of an entire population against a respiratory virus is baseless.
  • 6 3
 @sjflow: one side wants vaccines as a choice, the other wants vaccines as mandate, he is definitely on one side
  • 15 10
 @sjflow: "One side is significantly more backed by science than the other"

Just...all the lolz. You wouldn't know 'the science' if it walked up and peed on your leg dude. And you're right, there aren't "two sides" to every issue--it's typically many more, much more nuanced. But in your bid to be an ever more Big Brain authoritarian, you've been conditioned into the trap of 'othering' anyone who doesn't agree with your views. 'Don't agree with me? You're now in the 'out' group, nuance be damned.' It would be funny if it wasn't so dangerous. Clowns like yourself ready to turn in their neighbors just for a pat on the head. It's gross.
  • 1 1
 @mikealive: thank you for the information, and well written post. I used to believe the opposite of you, but now I believe exactly what you do. Thanks again.
  • 1 2
 @mikealive Cliches on top of vague insults in a post that says virtually nothing. Great job.
  • 2 1
 @sjflow: Your response is so tiresome, really. Demean, denigrate, dismiss.. but never actually engage, right? Your inability to engage on anything that is a "no-no word" only validates the point I was making. Thank you.
  • 1 1
 @mikealive: My post was about which side has the weight of the scientific community behind it. Your post is a scattershot of weird references to pissing, authoritarianism, danger, clowns, turning neighbors in, and making things up about me. Who's "not engaging" here? It's you.
  • 1 1
 @sjflow: Right. And my initial reply was highlighting the idiocy of attempting to divide the topic into only "2 sides", and the absolute arrogance of suggesting that only *your* side (whatever you perceive that to be) could possibly be correct. The fact that you could not grasp this does not surprise me, frankly. Additionally, I called into question your tactics of making this simply into an in group/out group matter, which is highly authoritarian in nature. Your response was to demean, denegrate, and dismiss... and now, when called out on it, you again minimize and deflect--after all my response was, as you say, merely "...weird references to pissing, authoritarianism, danger, clowns, turning neighbors in, and making things up about me.", right? Yet still no actual engagement. Color me shocked, lol.

It's not clever, rather it's positively transparent. And then you end it with a blatant gaslighting attempt, just *chef's kiss*. 'All those things you called me out for? Nuh-uh, that's you'. Jeezus, are you 12?
  • 1 0
 @mikealive: We're talking about the safety and efficacy of getting vaccinated. The person I was responding to said there was good research for and against the safety and efficacy of getting vaccinated. My point here is that they were mischaracterizing the weight of the evidence: the scientific consensus is overwhelmingly in favor of the safety and efficacy of getting vaccinated— for most people at least.
  • 60 35
 Where we were - " 2 Weeks to flatten the curve"

Where we are now - "Everyone, including 5 year olds, must have a vaccine to travel, go on a school trip, or even take part in sports activities".

What next?

Keep in mind, these MRNA vaccines have never been used on humans before. No long term safety data.They didn't pass animal trials. Short term safety data is bad. Check out US VAERS data.

The companies have full indemnity from prosecution in the event of any negative reaction. And we're talking multi billion dollar companies. Why can't they take responsbility ?

Pinkbikers roast Specialized for being corporate - but it seems we just love Pfizer !! Imagine if the new Stumpys small print stated -

"in the event of a catastrophic frame failure - you can apply for a small tax-payer funded handout - if you can prove it was our fault !"

The fact is - these are the biggest corporations in the world and we're all falling from their marketing campaign - which just happens to have government backing.

Check Pfizers past lawsuits - they have paid out BILLIONS in the past in fines for lying about the effectiveness of thier products.

It's forced vaccination just through coercion, psychological torture (isolation) and removal of the ability to make a livelihood.

And most of you are defending it.
  • 27 9
 @Rudella 100% this. Summed up perfectly, thank you!
The absolute state of pinkbike... tragic.
  • 22 16
 link to animal trial data since there are plenty of papers showing successful trials of mRNA vaccines for influenza virus, Zika virus, rabies virus and ebola in animal models. Also mRNA vaccines are not new.
  • 5 5
 Thank you
  • 32 8
 @ rudella

"MRNA vaccines have never been used on humans before." False. First trialed in humans in the late 90s. A trial for rabies vaccine was in 2013.

"Didn't pass animal trials." Debunked and false.

Pfizers have paid out for 'False Claims', but it isn't "BILLIONS"

And of course the governments are funding healthcare for a pandemic - that's what they are there for! Public safety!

And of course if you had a product and the government were pushing you to release it without going through your normal testing regime, you'd bloody well make sure your ass was covered with a 'Get Out Of Jail Free' card.

The logic you use is spurious - it's like the people that accuse Monsanto of producing seeds that can't reproduce AND ALSO saying they don't want genetically-modified plants getting out into the wild.
  • 10 11
 @iamamodel: Thanks for your fact check, isn't it great that Google serves up about 15 "Fact Check" articles every time you search anything related to Covid vaccines.

Animal studies - Here is an article warning against the potential negative effects of mRNA "vaccines" due to issues in animal studies. Keep in mind, the first Covid mRNA vaccine was given in March 2020 - we do not have long term safety data.

Conflict of interests are real and very worrying.

This also happened before, profiteering in the swine flu days.

Does your gut feeling say this is right ? Look at how children as young as 5 years old are being excluded from normal activities unless they take doses of a "vaccine" that has only been around for two years and serves NO benefit to them?

The side of the majority always feels good, but it isn't always right.

And sorry - Pfizer have only been fined 10 million, not billions. But why aren't they paying out directly to people like Kyle Warner now?
  • 8 2
 @Rudella: You were correct the first time. In 2009 Pfizer paid $2.3 BILLION in fines regarding felony criminal violations and a civil settlement. "The company pled guilty to felony charges for violating the Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act by misbranding the anti-inflammatory drug Bextra and promoting it for uses that the FDA “specifically declined to approved due to safety concerns,” the Department of Justice stated."

The emergency use authorization for Cov vaccines is a big deal, as it absolves manufacturers from such liabilities in the future.
  • 6 2
 @mikealive: Thanks for that, I was sure I had read billions. It just seemed too extreme to be true .....
  • 4 2
 @Rudella: Yep. It is very suspicious that neither the vaccine companies nor the governments requiring them will take any responsibility or liability for any adverse effects associated with the vaccines.
  • 4 2
 @Rudella: no mRNA vaccine in that research and we are not seeing masses of people with side effects. They are also mice nor humans.
  • 4 3
 @mtb-scotland: "Four candidate vaccines for humans with or without alum adjuvant were evaluated in a mouse model of SARS, a VLP vaccine, the vaccine given to ferrets and NHP, another whole virus vaccine and an rDNA-produced S protein." - These are very similar to what has been rolled out as covid jabs.

There are millions of reported adverse side effects, in the UK alone - but nobody cares.

Check UK Yellow Card, US VAERS and EUdra Vigilance data. It seems like approx 70% of the adverse reactions are in females also, unless there is a bias in reporting.

Remember this is just looking at the very short term effects - we have NO idea what the long term effects will be.
  • 1 1
 @Rudella: thank you for the information, and well written post. I used to believe the opposite of you, but now I believe exactly what you do. Thanks again.
  • 1 1
 @Rudella: According to WHO, 2,199,476 adverse effects following vaccination against COVID-19. Majority of them women (69%). Also, the deaths potentially caused by the vaccines will never be really known because (I think) majority of deaths that may have been caused by the vaccines are labeled with cause of death of something else.
  • 4 3

side effects are common with drugs and vaccines. side effects can include sore arm (well you just had a needle stuck in you), fever (well you just had a foreign substance injected into you and your immune system is working on it).

Also note ported

cases concern suspected side effects, i.e. medical events that have been observed after vaccination, but which are not necessarily related to or caused by the vaccine.
  • 1 4
 @mtb-scotland: thank you for the information, and well written post. I used to believe the opposite of you, but now I believe exactly what you do. Thanks again.
  • 4 0
 @mtb-scotland: Lets wait 6 months and see what we think then eh -
In the mean time, here's some data for you.
  • 3 1
 @Rudella: I've been vaccinated for over 6 months.
  • 4 1
 @mtb-scotland: I wasn't referring to that - I am talking about that fact that in 6 months we may have a very different info on the reality of this "pandemic" - like the info above which shows only 6,000 deaths solely from covid in 2 years in the UK.
  • 60 37
 RiP the comments section.

And rip dean lucas' season?

The idea of an athlete sabotaging their season because of a vaccine everybody around them probably already has is tastefully humorous to me. Replace it with a flu vaccine and suddenly a lot less people talk. Make it mandatory vitamin C supplements and nobody says a word. Uneducated man babies are actually afraid of the C word.
  • 9 3
 What's the c-word? c*nt?
  • 9 22
flag lepigpen (Jan 18, 2022 at 10:52) (Below Threshold)
 @jaame: No, that's the word they use to refer to people who are vaccinated.
  • 7 0
 I believe he came out and said he is vaccinated. We'll find out I guess!
  • 16 0
 dean lucas is vaxxed, he confirmed this in his insta story after everyone shouted at him
  • 14 28
flag Larkey1 (Jan 18, 2022 at 12:15) (Below Threshold)
 Apparently Dean Lucas was double vaxxed the whole time while travelling the world riding bikes. He just thought it was a public service to shit talk on the vaccine while we were all locked down. His career should already be over.
  • 21 3
 @Larkey1: god, you again. What is it with you and Dean Lucas? Did he beat you in a race 10 years ago?

You're spreading disinformation again, after you were already called out for it.
  • 22 3
 @tgent: so ridiculous that he even had to. He talked on a podcast about what could be achieved if we took preventable deaths like suicide as seriously as we take COVID. And somehow people thought that meant he was anti-vax.
  • 6 2
 @Mitch243: you clearly didn't see the shit he posted. You're the one who is misinformed.
  • 4 1
 @Mitch243: get angry bro
  • 7 2
 @Mitch243: me again? You don't have to read my comment.
Sorry but I'm allowed to call it as I see it.

It's pretty infuriating to have full vaxxed c*nt who allowed to be overseas racing while we've all be locked down.

Sure he backed away from his comments but f*ck him. The damage is done.

You're in Norway and we're here where he's from. We've had some of the worst lockdowns in the world. Get f*cked dude
  • 3 4
 @Larkey1: I'm Australian and have been stuck here due to COVID rules without being able to return to Australia for the past 2yrs. But sure, what would I know.

@FairGoFalcon: did you see it? I'm not convinced anyone did. I follow him, certainly never saw any of the shit that was alleged. And no one has ever shared a screenshot or anything like in every other allegation. I'm happy to be convinced, but career impacting witch hunts aren't cool.
  • 4 3
 @Mitch243: sure did. It's dickheads like you who didn't who blindly defend him who are part of the problem.
  • 4 1
 @Mitch243: if you don't like people getting mad at antivaxxers who are being jerks while we're all locked up her in Aus then I advise you to stay in Norway.

It hasn't been any fun here and seeing some bloke we all thought was the bee's knees discouraging vaccines (all while he's double vaxxed) is a real kick in the dick.

It's fine if you didn't see his posts, but seeing as you don't have all the facts, aren't here and are just some troll on the internet - get f*cked.
  • 4 1
 @Larkey1: maybe I should change my name to angryLARKEY1
  • 2 1
 @angryWaki: fair call. I'm glad your back Waki
  • 2 1
 @Larkey1: No one should get mad at anyone. Live and let live. Peace.
  • 1 2
 thank you for the information, and well written post. I used to believe the opposite of you, but now I believe exactly what you do. Thanks again.
  • 106 89
 after seeing what the vax has done to several athlete's careers and even in biking. kyle warner had a huge reaction to the vax which ended his career. i have a feeling france might be an empty show.
  • 62 47
 funny how my comment, which is based 100% on fact, is being downvoted so quickly. the brainwashing has really sunken in.
  • 31 2
 What is the probability of severely adverse reaction to a vaccine versus probability of severely adverse reaction to covid?
  • 17 25
flag novajustin (Jan 18, 2022 at 10:36) (Below Threshold)
 @pisgahgnar: that's an interesting read, thank you for that. i believe it's hard to calculate how one person's body would react to the vaccine over how it would react after having covid. seems like there would need to be more long term studies done which this will be studied until the end of time. the cases where people developed myocarditis from the vaccine, from what i have read, seemed to onset rather quickly after getting the 2nd dose. my concerns don't lie with myocarditis, but with the litany of unknowns at this point.
  • 6 3
 @pisgahgnar: i suppose the calculation becomes
what is the probability of myocarditis if taking the vaccine vs
what is the probability of myocarditis if infected with covid * the probability of becoming infected with covid (which seems more likely every day) vs
what is the probability of myocarditis if taking the vaccine and then also getting infected with covid

these are hard probability to make for any individual
  • 35 8
 @novajustin: I'm glad you're interested. But you do cite KW who unfortunately had myocarditis reaction to the vaccine. And it's not hard to calculate the odds, it's all right there in the data. Sure you don't know the specific risk for you're body, if there are any that can be identified beforehand which lead to higher incidences, but you do know that in a study of 1 Million people, you are six times more likely to get myocarditis from COVID than from the vaccine.
  • 37 10
 @novajustin: Hate to imagine the anxiety you experience getting in the car and pulling into traffic every day. So many unknowns out there.

Just admit no amount of research, already done or to be done in the future, will convince you to get it. I waited quite a while before I got mine. I was watching more for side effects stats than efficacy stats. Lo and behold they both turned out boringly stellar for being vax'd.

Also you were never concerned about the unknowns of covid itself lol. The reactions were WILDLY varying. You couldn't guarantee you you would end up with a sore throat and no taste or on a ventilator before the week is out. But those unknowns are okay because suddenly it's "worth the risk" to you.

Your arms are gonna be frickin stacked when you're done moving the goal posts all day.
  • 10 6
 @lepigpen: I drive a 10 wheel dump truck the 2 days a year that I leave my house, and yes I have all my moto kit on in case I get hit.
  • 18 1
 Hopefully Kyle will recover and come back!! Fingers crossed.
  • 20 12
 @lepigpen: i mean, you could take that critical approach to my thinking if you'd like. my approach is, i had covid and i was lucky to have super mild symptoms. about the same as a head cold. i recovered in a week and was back on my bike the next week after that with hardly a hitch in my breathing. why would i go out of my way to inject myself with ??? and deal with still getting covid, still transmitting covid, and still being told that i need to get more shots of ???.

i will side with body's way of dealing with it. i'm done being scared of this BS and dealing with the people who are living their lives in fear.

if i get in a car crash, i get in a car crash and it was probably my time to go. that similarity is the weakest comparison that always gets brought up any time someone has a debate with someone who doesn't want to inject mystery chemicals into their body. along the same dumb shit as "what happened to my body my choice bro?"
  • 17 3
 @twonsarelli: Not totally accurate since we are only talking about myocarditis here. We should really be looking at the probability of severe adverse reactions. As far as I know, myocarditis and blood clots are currently the two potential severe adverse reactions (apart from anaphylaxis but that is a little different since allergies may be known). The potential severe adverse reactions to COVID are numerous and occur significantly more often than the two as a result of vaccines.
  • 28 15
 @novajustin: Again, you are okay with the risk of getting covid but not the risk of getting a vax. Bro it made me a little tired for less than 24 hours.

So, as it turns out, our anecdotal experiences are meaningless in the grand scheme of public safety (which is what this article/legislation is about).

My body my choice is great for things that aren't contagious diseases. That's a bit like saying "I like to drink and drive it doesn't hurt anyone because I've done it many times and haven't crashed yet." But if someone kills someone in a DUI accident we charge them with involuntary manslaughter... As opposed to trying to sue alcohol companies.

"Being scared of this BS." What are you scared of? The... The vaccine?

I'm not living my life in fear. I really hope you aren't going to public elementary schools where vaccines with "mystery chemicals" are required to attend and telling children and their parents they are "living in fear".

You sound like you're living in fear of a vaccine that millions and millions of people have and haven't said anything bad about. But when people who DON'T have it say there are gonna be bad things about... Suddenly you're living in fear.

Again, the goal posts. Do you wanna help me move some furniture? You're gonna be riiipped.
  • 22 15
 @lepigpen: i am not "moving the goal posts" the "goal posts" are being moved by the government. now a 4th shot is being suggested? what happened to 2 doses meant you were fully vaxed? who is moving those "goal posts"? and when is enough enough? i guess never with you. you will just bend the knee to the all mighty bo jiden and do whatever he comes up with next.
  • 17 10
 @novajustin: Thanks for confirming this is more of a political thing to you than an actual personal my body my choice issue.

I don't vote for any of your f*ckin cringe overlords. George Carlin didn't die to watch you f*ckin dumb ass far lefties and far righties ruin this country. You're both a bane to society. I hope you take your guns and the lefties take their hair dye to an island and you just have at each other until there's no longer extremism on earth lol

Enjoy your day, dude.
  • 9 7
 @lepigpen: YEAH @novajustin!!!! You can take your 1st amendment rights and shove it deeep, deep up your ass!!! How could someone from a former Soviet country ever possibly have a negative view of an incorruptible government that obviously has YOUR best interest at heart???
  • 8 3
 @pisgahgnar: People should still have a choice.
  • 10 4
 @HB208: not if people are actually the property of the government.
  • 12 8
 @HB208: They do. Anti-vaxxers are not being rounded up and thrown in prison. Business owners and event organizers are making choices to who to serve and/or represent.

And I know of people who legit moved to Texas (from California) in order to better support their choice. That's fine. But when it comes to government mandates people are still voting in the government and ultimately curate the government that they answer to. I am against further lockdowns that jeopardize businesses in California. But am still for mask mandates (its a f*ckin piece of cloth) and vax promotion (via gov). Even in California I have not seen any government program mandating the vax.
  • 9 5
 @HB208: Then you should wear a sign so people have a choice to avoid you in public.
  • 9 4
 @lepigpen: I don't have any issue with vax promotion. I have an issue with forcing someone to make a health decision to be in public.

Cloth masks do next to nothing against omicron BTW.

I have been vaccinated since March 2021 btw. I am 28 so I probably won't get a booster for a while, but I have never been anti-vax.
  • 5 5
 @HB208: Nobody is forcing someone to get vax'd to go in public... ???

Do you think private businesses and event venues that operate under a permit are... The public? lol

Where is this place you are referring to where you have to be vax'd to be on public land?
  • 9 4
 @lepigpen: What are you talking about? NYC has those rules in place. The CITY says you cannot go into "non-essential" business (such as restaurants) if you are unvaxxed. I have zero issues with private businesses saying that you need to be, but private businesses aren't given the choice in NYC (and I am pretty sure SFC/LA).
  • 2 4
 @HB208: Not happening in Los Angeles. Show me proof of that for NY and SF. I've heard of businesses mandating vax and governments mandating masks. But never gov mandating vax for anything. Just show me the article.
  • 10 1

"People ages 5 to 12 are required to show proof they have received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine, and people 12 and older must show proof of two doses (except for Johnson & Johnson recipients), for:

Indoor dining
Includes restaurants, catering halls, hotel banquet rooms, bars, nightclubs, cafeterias, coffee shops, fast food restaurants, grocery stores with indoor dining and other indoor dining spaces

Indoor fitness
Includes gyms, fitness centers, fitness classes, pools, dance studios and other indoor fitness studios, such as yoga or Pilates

Indoor entertainment and certain meeting spaces
Includes movie theaters, music and concert venues, museums, aquariums and zoos, professional sports arenas, indoor stadiums, convention centers, exhibition halls, hotel meeting and event spaces, performing arts theaters, bowling alleys, arcades, pool and billiard halls, recreational game centers, adult entertainment and indoor play areas"
  • 3 8
flag lepigpen (Jan 18, 2022 at 12:50) (Below Threshold)
 @HB208: That's a bummer. Not too surprising for NYC. I'm assuming it's the most dense city in the country. Probably even more so than LA where I live. But it's tiny.

I wouldn't like to live there and I wouldn't blame anyone for leaving, for a million reasons including a vaccine mandate.

If the residents don't like it, they should vote that mayor out... But... I have this sneeaaky suspicion a city as blue as NYC simply will not do that.

You may have noticed that the other 19,494 cities in America have not done this. If SF has, that would be 2 cities out of 19,495 cities. The residents in those cities probably support the decision because of the unusual circumstance they live in. If you aren't in a city with a population over 8 million... I simply wouldn't worry about it lol
  • 5 1
 @lepigpen: Right, but I could completely see other large left leaning cities implementing something similar. Its not out of the realm of possibility at all.
  • 4 4
 @HB208: Yeah but it's not a problem here because large left leaning cities are full of vax'd people. And the residents are SUPPORTING the decision (as a majority) because that's the type of government they voted for.

I'm vaxxed so I wouldn't even give a shit. I don't think they should do it. But if there was a vax card check at the door for LA tomorrow I can't begin to explain how almost nothing would change. A huge majority of people here are vax'd. And a mandate would probly cut the small amount of unvax'd people in half (which is literally the goal of mandates, so it is what it is).

Where do you live? I hope you're not in some swing or red state being terrified of what happens in these awful cities all day lol (i say that unironically, big cities are awful and i've been thinking where to move recently. my brother already left this state)
  • 17 3
 @pisgahgnar: There is more recent data from UK that shows that Myocarditis in young males is more common after MRNA vaccine than it's from covid infection. The risk after the 2nd shot of Moderna is significantly higher.

The original study that looked at males and females under 40 combined -

A followup done by the same scientists where the data is also split by gender -

It's also worth listening to Vinay Prasad MD MPH "UPDATED DATA: UK Myocarditis Authors Stratify by Sex for Men under 40- Vax vs Virus" video on YouTube about this topic.

Some key takeaways:

1) It is now clear for men 40, dose 2 and dose 3 of Pfizer have more myocarditis than sars-cov-2 infection, and this is true for dose 1 and dose 2 of Moderna.

2) Pfizer boosters (Dose 3) have more myocarditis for men 40 than infection.

3) Myocarditis post infection is more common as you get older, in contrast with myocarditis post vaccination, which is more common as you are younger (reverse gradients)
  • 2 3
 @lepigpen: I live in Boise, but I am pretty left leaning. I have visited PDX and Seattle recently and don't think either is horrible FWIW.
  • 1 4
 @HB208: Visiting is fine. Arguably the best method. Living in these areas will kill ya dead lol. Let's do a time share. I wanna ride some of those Idaho trails with the Vital boiz Smile
  • 13 9
 @cogsci: for males under thirty, the vaccine is more likely to cause serious harm or death.
  • 7 5
 @LearnedHat: Cite your sources.
  • 3 0
 @pisgahgnar: oh for sure. I was just pointing out that some probabilities are more complex and have compounding factors. So taking a vaccine is 100% taking it, whereas not taking it is not 100% infected (although these new variants seem to be getting us at higher rates). So the true risk may be in between two days points. Also, we do have freedom of association, which is very helpful to mitigate risks further. My mom is at high risk due to a health condition that has a treatment which is known to destroy your immune system. So if I wanted to see her, she basically said that she wanted me to get vaccinated, just to knock down the risks of transmission even further. That’s a very fair trade in my life. If my neighbor had the same demand (and I was otherwise inclined to not vaccinate), I might not adopt the same course of action.
  • 8 6
 @pisgahgnar: where do you get this BS from? Farmanfia propaganda ? You are not going to get miocarditis from covid... That's simply lying. You ve been brain washed...
  • 3 6
 @pisgahgnar: Except the reported cases of Myocarditis is lower from covid than the vaccine and considering The covid Cases vs Vaccine doses.
Anyone with any precovid health power is just pushing what they want to suit their job.
  • 7 0
 @PauRexs: right here:

Estimate an extra ten (95% CI 7, 11) myocarditis events per 1 million vaccinated in the 28 days after a second dose of mRNA-1273. This compares with an extra 40 (95% CI 38, 41) myocarditis events per 1 million patients in the 28 days following a SARS-CoV-2 positive test.
  • 4 0
 @noideamtber: not true check my reply right above.
  • 4 1
 These are the numbers people are avoiding the vax because? lol
  • 6 9
 @pisgahgnar: You mean on a medical Media page? no thanks, Anyone can write that crap. go view official numbers on official sites.
I can google whatever i like and choose what ever pages agree with my agenda, exactly what youve just done.
Official sites are the only ones that hold any Value, bonus points if you get your info from .govt Sites. is exactly what makes the pandemic so bad, they post Whatever they like and it suits agendas so people chose that.
The same arguement for scientists and Medical experts who were top acting pre covid who disagree with the others/govt agenda so they get punished...

The simple minded people on this site is pathetic
  • 5 2
 @noideamtber: Holy shit lol. Holy shit. Yikes
  • 7 6
 @lepigpen: No, this is part of the puzzle. The spike is a T-Cell inhibitor (T-Cells prevent cancer growth) and in autopsies the spike protein has been found in multiple internal organs in high concentrations. There have already been reports of particularly aggressive cancers. Who knows how widespread that will be but is it worth the risk for a virus (Beta) with a 99.84% survival rate in under 70’s?

Not to mention Omicron symptoms are very mild, is it still worth the injecting that alpha spike in your body?
  • 7 1
 @noideamtber: yikes. Your ignorance is scary. I have a feeling you won't like this one either but here is a .gov link to the current CDC guidance based on data of the risk of myocarditis vs covid complications.
  • 1 6
flag Augustus-G (Jan 19, 2022 at 7:16) (Below Threshold)
 @pisgahgnar: Why don't you just break out the Yellow Stars?
  • 4 5

"Yeah but it's not a problem here because large left leaning cities are full of vax'd people. And the residents are SUPPORTING the decision (as a majority) because that's the type of government they voted for."

That sounds a lot like tyranny of the majority.
  • 5 3
 @HB208: Or democracy where majority vote rules? Is it tyranny when a presidential election is 51% to 49%? What about a Senate that is currently being effectively controlled by the party in the minority? What about an election where the "winner" loses the popular vote but ends up in the seat of power?
  • 4 4
 @Augustus-G: Six million Jewish people perished in the Holocaust — shot, gassed, starved — solely because of their heritage. Five million others also were killed for their orientation, race, religion, or willingness to aid their Jewish neighbors. Get the f*ck out of here, you are an abhorrent human being.
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flag Augustus-G (Jan 19, 2022 at 7:30) (Below Threshold)
 @pisgahgnar: KMD you tyrannical douche. Don't you have some books to burn?
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 @pisgahgnar: No, it is specifically when the majority takes away the rights of the minority through democratic rule. Look up James Madison's concerns in the Federalist Papers.
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 @pisgahgnar: Yes, because a 2 party system is tyrannical.
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 @Bobohunter1776: explain to me how it’s more than a single party system!
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 The main question here is...where are the Pinkbike Advent Calendar Winners??????
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 This should be a lively "discussion."

They should put an asterisk beside "fully vaccinated" as who is going to determine the precision of the phrase? Two doses won't cut it in 2023, for instance. And Pfizer et al are interested in a continuous profit stream of boosters.

At this point (Jan 2022 and Omicron is dominant), vaccines don't appear (empirically) to be reducing transmissibility but ARE reducing severe disease. And IMO after studying myocarditis risks of booster shots (3rd dose) in young people, I would respectfully decline.
  • 1 0
 People are gonna be pissed no matter what. People are gonna be angry if they don't, but then people will be angry if their favorite rider isn't allowed to compete.
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 Honest question, does 'fully Vaxxed' mean double vaxxed or must boosters be included?
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 In France fully vaxxed means at least 2 doses (or one if Janssen) and from Feb. 15 onwards a booster is mandatory to be considered as fully vaxxed.
Recently recovered from Covid share the same status as fully vaxxed.
  • 30 0
 If only the answer was somewhere in the article........
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 @Zaeius: what’s an article
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 It depends on when one wants to enter France and is very fluid. Likely to look something like this:
Entry before the end of Jan 2022: Three shots (2 + 1 booster)
Entry Feb to July: Four shots
Entry July to Sep: Five shots
Entry Oct to December: Six shots
Entry Jan 2023 to April 2023: Seven shots
Entry May 2023 to September 2023: Eight shots
Entry Jan 2025 to June 2025: 36 shots

Entry Jan 2029 to Aug 2029: 138 shots
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 @jaame: I’m waiting for the corona+ subscription system, monthly boosters for everybody and build a paywall around France
  • 15 9
 @fewnofrwgijn: you're joking, but this is actually what it is... vaccinees have literally turned their immune system into a subscription model. By vaccinating everyone and tuning their immune system merely on very specific spike proteins, selective pressure for new immune evasive variants is created. Thus, a new vaccine is going to be needed for those variants. It's a self-sustaining business model... paid by the taxpayers of the world, directly into the wallet of billion dollar companies.
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 Riding your mountain bike is more effective at preventing serious covid infection than the vaxx.