Review: Fox Live Valve Suspension

Aug 28, 2018
by Richard Cunningham  



"Just ride your bike." That's what Fox's Live Valve is all about. The premise is simple: Live Valve turns on your bike's suspension when you need it, and turns it off when you don't. Most trail bikes allow you to perform those functions manually, but the reality is that you are not smart enough to know exactly when to switch those levers, and even if you were, you would not be quick enough to switch them in time for your decisions to be effective. Live Valve gets it right every time. You push a button and ride your bike. Your suspension works. Pedaling feels seamless.

Suspension levers, anti-squat, platform damping, and inertia valves are all coping mechanisms. We optimize suspension kinematics between good pedaling and a good ride. We anticipate the trail ahead, make a best guess - maybe we'll turn something on or off - and then we live with the results until circumstances change dramatically enough to warrant a different decision.

How do I know these things? First, I've been riding dual-suspension mountain bikes since the beginning of mountain bike suspension, so I've had a chance to try every mechanical or electric suspension system that touts those abilities - including Live Valve. Second, while I'll freely admit I'm far from being the smartest guy in the sport, I have had the chance to ride with the most probable candidates and they all fall short of greatness in manual suspension mode. Third, the numbers don't lie.

Average human reaction time is .25 seconds for visual stimulus, and as short as .15 seconds for tactile stimulus - but those numbers are for people who are locked and loaded, not bouncing down a trail with a lot of other things to deal with. Controlled
Fox
The heart of Live Valve is Fox's patented "latching solenoid." It can toggle your shock's compression damping from open to firm in three thousandths of a second. Ian Collins photo
studies for auto accidents reveal much slower reaction times: 1.7 to 2.3 seconds before the brain can get the body to respond. Those figures may apply if you are riding a Scott or a Cannondale with a dual-remote suspension control, but if you plan on taking a hand off the grips and fumbling for a lever... taste eternity, my friend. By comparison, Fox Live Valve can sense an impact and respond in .003 seconds.

Fox
Fox Factory Image


How Live Valve Works

Fox Live Valve's heart is a magnetic valve a little larger than a pencil eraser that opens and closes the same low-speed compression circuit that is used for Fox's manually-controlled forks and shocks. This "latching solenoid" valve is packaged to fit inside both suspension components. The fork module simply replaces the damper-side top cap, while the shock module fits inside a second "piggyback" canister that sits parallel with the shock's IFP reservoir.

Two accelerometers, one in the fork arch, and another near the rear axle, sense and measure the velocity of vertical movement to register impacts. That information is sent through wires to Live Valve's microprocessor.

Fox
The fork and shock share the same solenoid-valve modules...
Fox
The front accelerometer is fixed to the back of the fork arch.
Fox
...Which greatly simplifies both service and installation. Ian Collins photos
Fox
The rear acclerometer is tucked behind the chainstay.


The brain of Live Valve is a small frame-mounted microprocessor (Fox calls it their Controller) that also houses a removable 7.4-volt battery. Key to the Controller is its cluster of sensors that indicate whether the bike is level, pointed up or down, or free falling. When an impact is sensed, the controller uses those four functions to determine whether it will open the fork, open the shock, or open both components. The interval between sensing an impact to opening the dampers is only three milliseconds - that's one hundred times faster than the blink of an eye. Opening the suspension's low-speed damping circuit in the nick of time, however, is only half of Live Valve's magic.

Fox
Live Valve's battery and Controller are combined into a single, compact module. This one is mounted to the down tube of Giant's 2019 Anthem Advanced Pro 29-0. Ian Collins photo


Live Valve's default is closed - the equivalent of you running your shock and fork in the firm pedaling mode. The Controller only opens the suspension after an impact, and it has a pre-set timer that tells it when to switch the servo module back to firm. The magic is that the controller consults its "tilt" and zero-gravity "Free Fall" sensors and alters its timing sequences accordingly:

Climbing: When you are climbing, the processor only opens the suspension component that experiences the impact - and then it closes it down immediately after to maintain support. That keeps the front wheel pinned to the trail and prevents the rear end of the bike from wallowing down in its travel.

Level: While you are riding level, the Controller uses either accelerometer signal to open both the fork and shock. This ensures the suspension will be balanced while cornering and pumping the bike. In level mode, the time interval to switch back to firm is lengthened, so the suspension will remain open to react to successive impacts, but not so long that out of the saddle pedaling will cause the bike to wallow into its suspension travel.
Fox
Everet Ericksen, Fox's Advanced Technology Group Manager, said that they delayed Live Valve's release three years to work further with riders and OEMs to construct new algorithms that play better with suspension kinematics and with varying terrain. It was a good call. Ian Collins photo

Descending: When the Controller senses the bike is angled downhill more than six degrees (the grade-angle can be programmed), impacts from either wheel will simultaneously open both the shock and fork, while the time interval to return to firm mode is further extended to ensure that the suspension feels unimpeded. It will return to firm mode if the terrain is smooth, so you can win downhill road sprints on the way home.

Free fall: Free-fall is sensed only by the Controller, which opens the fork and shock until the frame and fork-mounted accelerometers register that you have returned to earth and the bike is rolling smoothly again.

The takeaway here is that Fox developed an algorithm that senses what you are doing on the trail and tailors the suspension to enhance that experience. The addition of the tilt and free fall function also assures that Live Valve won't get confused while you are smashing through crazy zones.

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Live valve's Controller senses if you are climbing, level, or descending and then either lengthens or shortens the time interval from open to firm compression modes. Tapping the accelerometer opens the solenoid (first click). If there is no following impact, the Controller's internal timer switches the valve back to firm (second click).


Adjustments

Don't worry about losing your conventional adjustments and clickers. Because Live Valve only affects the adjustable low-speed compression damping circuits, all other functions of the fork or shock are the same, including the damping piston's valve stacks, external rebound dials, and air cans. Manual low-speed compression adjustments are made via a flush Allen-hex screw in the face of the Live Valve modules. It's not as pretty as an anodized dial, but it gets the job done.


Live Valve has a threshold adjustment that alters the bump sensitivity of the system. Five pre-programmed options are available, accessed by an external button above the on/off switch on the processor. Green LED lights on the processor momentarily remind you of which setting you have chosen when you turn the system on. Scrolling from option one through option five increases the G-force necessary to open the suspension and decreases the time interval that the fork and shock will remain open.
Fox

Live Valve always remains open for air-time and in rowdy terrain, Fox's downhill settings will remain open full time. That is when most of us want our suspension to work full time anyway. Switching to a higher threshold setting creates a firmer pedaling feel, especially while pushing big gears, where some riders want the timer to close down earlier at the expense of a proportionately harsher feel over chatter and roots. In most settings, however, only the small-bump sensitivity changes. Medium and large hits feel much the same.

Fox
All five of Live Valve's pre-set suspension modes can be customized using a PC computer and a standard USB cable. Presently, however, Fox only offers the software to OEM customers and service centers. Fox Image


Can I Program Live Valve at Home?

Fox says that at present only OEM bike makers and Fox service centers can re-program Live Valve's timing algorithms using a PC up-link. This is necessary to customize the system to match various suspension kinematics, and applications. There is the possibility that users could be given this power in the future, but as of now, Fox is taking a conservative approach as it releases the concept into the wild - at least for the first year.

Fox is still working out the details, but their plan is to give key retailers and service centers the technology to custom tune Live Valve suspension and later, offer a variety of plug-and-play pre-programmed tuning maps directly to consumers. Fox furnished me with a PC loaded with Live Valve software and walked me through the programming process. It was intuitive to use and the effects on the bike's performance were tangible.


Do Live Valve Shocks and Forks Need Special Tunes?

Fox encourages riders to set their suspension exactly how they like it. There is no need to change your air pressure, sag, or rebound damping to adapt to Live Valve. That said, the full-time pedaling action affords riders the option to choose a more gravity oriented tune without paying a penalty elsewhere on the mountain.

Fox
Fox says that both wireless options and Shimano's Di2 electronics were too slow to meet Live Valve's reaction times. Wires exit from the lower face of the Controller module, directly into the frame tube. Fox Image


Is Live Valve Compatible With Other Systems?

Fox investigated a number of options, including compatibility with Shimano Di2, and wireless actuation (like Bluetooth), but none of them had fast enough response times. In the end, Fox had to develop their own electronics from scratch. The decision to develop Live Valve from the ground up paid dividends in many areas of its development. Live Valve's latching solenoid valve, for instance, uses permanent magnets to retain the needle valve in position. To open or close the damping circuit, an impulse signal momentarily disarms the magnet - after which, the valve requires no additional current to remain in position. Similarly, Fox's electronic team were free to develop algorithms specific to Live Valve. As a result, the system is deceptively simple and draws little from its battery.

Fox
Evolutionary steps: Fox developed and perfected its electronics in-house. RC photo


What about battery life?

Fox estimates Live Valve's run time on a fully charged battery at 16 to 20 hours. The two-cell 7.4-volt Lithium Ion battery is essentially the same as the one Shimano uses for its Di2 shifting, although the two systems are not interchangeable. Recharge is via a USB cable and this can be done while the battery is on or off the bike. The battery has a quick-disconnect feature and is sealed (like the entire Live Valve system) against the elements to IPX7 standards.. Charge times are in the neighborhood of 1.5 hours, but if you forget, a 15-minute charge will get you through a two-hour ride.

Low battery default: If the battery fails or runs down, Live Valve defaults to open mode. Your descending will be optimized and at worst, you'll have to pedal home with your suspension in soft mode. That shouldn't be a deal breaker.

Fox
Fox
The Controller's battery can be removed or charged on the bike. Waterproof seals are used at every junction.


Which Forks and Shocks Will be Compatible?

So far, all Fox forks with FIT 4 dampers are compatible with Live Valve (32 Step Cast, 34 and 36 forks). Float shocks with the dual piggyback design will be available with EVOL air sleeve in standard, metric and trunnion configurations. Fox designed the dual-chamber reservoir to flip-flop forward and back on the shock body in order to fit up with frames that have clearance issues, or to make room for water bottles.


How Much Weight Does Live Valve Add?

Comparing apples to apples, Live Valve adds 144 grams (according to Fox) when compared to a stock 2018 Scott Genius with cable-actuated remote suspension. That delta is a little inflated, because the Scott has a lighter weight in-line shock as standard equipment, while Live Valve shocks are the more-sophisticated reservoir types found on most high-performance bikes.
Live Valve Weight

• Battery: 72 grams
• Controller + sensors: 104 grams
• Live Valve 185x55 trunnion shock, complete unit: 466 grams (compare with similar float DPX2 @ 400 grams)
• Live Valve fork damper adds 20 grams (36 fork, 29” wheel-size)

Fox
My review bike was a medium-sized Pivot Mach 5.5. Pivot says the up-charge for Live Valve suspension is close to $2000 USD. Ian Collins photo


How Much Will Live Valve Cost?

Live Valve will be an expensive purchase for aftermarket customers - the MSRP includes the price of a fork and shock in addition to the Live Valve electronics kit. Fox pins the aftermarket price for a Live-Valve system based upon the 36 fork at $3250 USD. But, don't freak out yet. With few exceptions, Live Valve first-adopters will be buying their systems pre-assembled on complete bikes, and will benefit from lower OEM pricing structures.
Live Valve Retail Pricing
Complete Live Valve Aftermarket system includes fork, shock, and controller with wiring and sensors.

• 32 Step-Cast: $3000
• 34: $3000
• 34: Step-Cast $3125
• 36: $3250


Significantly less for OEM customers: Pivot's Chris Cocalis says that the up-charge on their Mach 5.5 (which features the Fox Live Valve 36 fork) will be $2000 - still a chunk of change, but if it will make you feel better, that's equivalent to the cost of an elite-level carbon wheelset. Giant and Scott will also be offering OEM-spec Live Valve models and currently, Rocky Mountain and Niner have joined a growing list of brands that have Live Valve friendly bikes in production.

Understandably, bike makers initially will be offering Live Valve on their upper-echelon models. Giant will lead with their Shimano XTR 9100 equipped 2019 Anthem Advanced Pro 29-0 at $11,500. Scott will feature Live Valve on its top-level Genius at $9,999 USD. Fox projects aftermarket sales will begin this fall.




Fox
Riding
Fox Live Valve
Ian Collins photo

bigquotesI had doubts that Live Valve could manage a significant improvement in the Mach 5.5's pedaling efficiency, as it already rates at the top of the list (sans damping aids). Live Valve, however, would prove me wrong.


Fox invited PB to preview Live Valve at its new development and service facility in Asheville, North Carolina. The plan was to discuss the system with its creators and then spend a few days riding with the Fox crew on the outstanding trail network in the surrounding mountains. Fox point man Mark Jordan is well aware that a few days riding in a factory-selected environment, sequestered by their staff is not conducive to free expression and honest reporting. After the dog and pony show, they boxed up our test bikes and sent them home with us for an extended (and private) review on our home trails.

About the bikes: Giant, Scott, and Pivot furnished test bikes. My choice was Pivot's Mach 5.5, with 140 millimeters of dw-Link rear suspension and a 160-
Fox
Test bikes lined up in Fox's North Carolina service and development facility. The Polaris RZR UTV is also Live Valve suspended. Ian Collins photo
millimeter-stroke Fox 36 fork up front. I had doubts that Live Valve could manage a significant improvement in the Mach 5.5's pedaling efficiency, as it already rates at the top of the list (sans damping aids). Live Valve, however, would prove me wrong.


Initial Setup

Charging Live Valve can be done on or off the bike. Just pop open a waterproof cap and plug in the micro USB cable. Two hours later, you're good to go for a week or more of riding. Two clips retain the battery module, which is sealed from the elements by an O-ring and Fox provides a doppelganger cover that replaces the module to protect the internals while the battery is gone. Much like Shimano Di2 shifting, Live Valve's battery lasts so long that you'll probably forget to charge it at least once.

Fox
The USB charging port is also used for programming. RC photo
Fox
Break-away connectors provide crash protection. RC photo


Mechanically, I was prompted to set my suspension exactly to my previous preferences, If you're interested, that's 20% sag up front and 30% sag out back, with a few clicks of low-speed compression damping and with my low-speed rebound straddling the midpoint - a little too fast to tame G-outs at a slow trail pace and just fast enough to take the edge off of baby head rock gardens and roots on the downs. How many clicks that is would depend upon whether I am riding in North Carolina or Southern California.

Push the on-button, choose your threshold setting, and then Live valve takes care of the rest. I chose the number two option, which remains my favorite to this day. Initially, there are few sensations that signal Live Valve is at work. The latching valves make tiny clicking noises, so you'll know that something is going on down there, but the system responds so quickly that the hand-off between open and closed feels seamless. I was lulled into believing that nothing was going on until I realized that every root and rock that I was rolling over on my way up the mountain felt like it was the same size. They weren't.

Fox
Climbing was exceptional. The transition between open and closed was seamless under power. Ian Collins photo


G-limited: Live Valve opens when G-forces hit its preset threshold with such precision that all initial impacts feel about the same. I was banging into an array of rocks and roots ranging in size up to five inches, but at the grips, my 36 fork's four-G threshold setting made the bike feel like I was rolling over a continuous web of small, two-inch-diameter (50mm) roots. Adjust the G-force threshold up or down (Fox let me experiment with Live Valve settings), and you'll feel a proportionate change in the bike's small-bump sensitivity. After Live Valve's latching solenoids open, however, the quality of your suspension is entirely dictated by your air-pressure and damping choices, and the bike's kinematics. Or is it?

Fox
When climbing, the fork and shock respond independently. The rear suspension doesn't settle when it gets steep and rough. Ian Collins photo


Improved suspension action: One might assume that, because Live valve can only toggle a percentage of your shock and fork's low-speed compression damping, that it could not significantly improve the performance of your suspension outside of its pedaling feel. Live Valve's timing algorithms, however, greatly enhance the way the suspension responds while climbing. Live Valve manages to maintain the bike's ride height, so beyond the actual grade of the trail, there was never a perceptible change in the fore/aft balance of the suspension and its ride height as I made transitions from flat to climbing.

It took a while before I stopped pausing momentarily to transfer my saddle position forwards at the onset of every climb. That was no longer a necessity. The only times I needed to break my pedaling cadence and move my weight around on the saddle was for more technical ascents or steep, punchy climbs - and even then, the stability the system added to my already sharp climbing Mach 5.5 was remarkable. I also could pedal more smoothly up chunky section because the controller allows the fork and shock to respond independently in climb mode, which keeps the rear wheel driving, and the front of the bike tracking, instead of skipping over the chunder.

Fox
Ian Collins photo


Another surprising improvement to the suspension's action was the 'free-fall' mode. I never realized how often I was airborne while riding at pace over relatively smooth trails until I started using Live Valve. The controller can sense and react to a tiny drop, which dramatically smooths the medium-sized G-outs that most perceive as bothersome trail chatter. My bike felt more glued to the ground at speed. Corner entries and hard braking felt more precise.

The Live Valve litmus test occurs when you switch it off (or run out of juice in the battery, as I did once). Every time I switched off the system for back-to-back comparison runs, it only took a minute or so before I wanted to pull over and turn it back on. Live Valve defaults to open mode, which still provided sprite pedaling action aboard the Mach 5.5, but once you know something you can't un-know it.


Can You Live Without It?

Live Valve is going to find its home on high-performance trail bikes with generous amounts of wheel travel that are owned by enthusiast-level riders who already own a high-end machine and want a better bike for their next purchase. There are a handful of trail bikes presently available that pedal efficiently without suspension aids and Pivot's Mach 5.5 is among them. No, you don't need Live Valve to ride at the highest level, but if you have the money to burn, you'll get more performance for your dollar from Live Valve than you could hope to squeeze from electric shifting, a fancy carbon wheelset or even a sequential-shifting gearbox.


What I Liked Most

Simple pleasure, perhaps, but my favorite aspect of Live Valve is never having to pause at the top of a climb to check if my suspension is open. Or checking my suspension at all, for that matter. Down, up, flat, rough, or smooth, my suspension is always doing what I want it to do.

I have often written how I like to keep my suspension wide open all the time - primarily because I have hit so many downs with my climb switch accidentally left on firm that I'd rather enjoy the climbs a little less in return for the assurance that I'll be ready for every descent. Well, Live Valve lets me enjoy the whole ride without thinking about my suspension - and that makes me a happier, and a measurably faster rider.
RC Fox Live Valve
Ian Collins photo

Live Valve Can't Fix Stupid

What Live Valve can't do is compensate for a poorly set up fork or shock. If your suspension is pumped up to a zillion PSI and plugged with air-volume spacers, or if your dials are screwed to their maximum positions, you are on your own. Live Valve will happily toggle your low-speed compression circuits at precisely the right moments, but at best, your ride quality will only be less worse. Live Valve turns in its best performance when the suspension is biased to enhance traction and match the rider's technical skill-set.


Pinkbike's Take:
bigquotesFox was right to wait until Live Valve was thoroughly proven before they released it. I imagined that I'd be concluding with a carefully scripted paragraph that weighed its astronomical retail price against its potential benefits. The bottom line is that Live Valve represents the most useful and important suspension innovation to emerge during a decade of boring gradual improvements. It works great, and I don't want to ride without it.RC

Fox
Getting sideways at the Fox test track. Live valve first debuted on Polaris RZR UTVs under the name "Dynamix." Ian Collins photo







428 Comments

  • + 363
 Skynet will lockout your suspension before the landing and open rebound on your rear shock before that big kicker...
  • + 63
 your current spongy pink meat suit may not need the live valve, but your invincible surrogate robot body will smash with it
  • + 4
 LOL, Skynet will enable brakes and block the wheel just before the big kicker...
  • + 29
 Can't wait till Apple and Samsung starts making bikes.
  • + 24
 Jokes on you, Skynet: my technique is so bad that this will probably improve my results!
  • + 1
 @vjunior21: wait, this could actually incite a lot of urbans to start commuting xD
  • + 35
 John Connor for 2019 EWS Champ
  • + 14
 @vjunior21: Samsung's bikes will fold, and maybe explode. Apple's bikes will just be very expensive, but iSheep will still buy them #becauseapple
  • + 9
 @uphill-blues:
After 18 months the Samsung phones will update and start running slower until they stop working all together so you have to replace it.

Apple bikes will have a cool store you can take it into for repairs by someone with the skill set of a barista with an apple shirt on.
  • + 6
 @tkdbboy:
Sarah Conner for 2019 female EWS champ.
  • + 9
 @vjunior21: Apple was the company that was busted/sued for built in deprecation not Samsung
  • + 2
 It may work well for Cross country world cup racers.
  • + 11
 I hope they don't make your suspension start to feel really sluggish when they want you to buy a new one (like your smartphone does)
  • + 2
 Too much reading, but Richard Cunningham got Buff!
  • + 1
 @Svinyard: bursting into flames sure will depreciate a phone though
  • + 1
 @vjunior21: you've got to pay for cool, yo!
  • + 2
 @kpickrell: So then you remove Live Valve, and have a typical $10k superbike.
  • + 20
 “Open the compression lockout Hal”

“I’m sorry Dave but I’m afraid I can’t do that”
  • + 261
 "The interval between sensing an impact to opening the dampers is only three milliseconds. Fox says that it takes the human body three million times longer to sense that same impact at the handlebar." I dunno about you, but I definitely feel the impact at the handlebar earlier than 2.5 hours later...
  • + 13
 shhhhh...
  • + 126
 Idk, I usually feel heavy impacts the next day
  • + 25
 Someone better get their exponents straight at FOX...
  • + 107
 RC needs to check his meth.
  • + 11
 Haha I hope that's just a typo and they don't think we'll stupidly be impressed by these numbers.
  • + 5
 @ReformedRoadie: thanks for making me spit beeer all over my stuff Big Grin
  • + 1
 COTY
  • + 11
 Myself and every other engineer reading did the same math after reading that line...
  • + 7
 Lets hope the engineering dept is better at math then Fox's marketing team.
  • + 0
 IIRC human response time in the best case is 100 milliseconds.
  • + 2
 @OrionW: confirmed
  • + 45
 All fact about the computer reacting a million times faster than a human miss the point. Humans have eyes and can preempt the rock garden. They open the shock before they get there. They don't wait until they feel the first bump then react.
  • + 12
 What does the FOX say....
  • + 1
 @nigelh: but what this can do is open this over every single individual root, and close it after.
  • + 1
 @AshLol: yeah, this will be cool someday.
  • + 3
 @nigelh: That was my thought as well. Also, how fast does a normal shock actuate on impact? Additionally, normal shocks are free flow, and are always at some constantly changing point in their actuation cycle, except at the extremes. This may be a good or bad thing depending on terrain. These are important questions to asses the validity of the claims made.
  • + 2
 @AshLol: i agree, suspensions settings will be changed more often. Also the rider does not need to think the suspension mode. My point is you don't wait to feel a bump through the handle bars then react.

I hope it doesn't feel like a specialized brain fork or shock when it locks and unlocks.
  • + 4
 @ReformedRoadie: RC has Fox Live surgically installed to check his meth levels in 0.003 sec intervals.
  • + 1
 You made my day, Dude!
  • + 2
 @nigelh What wasn’t covered is how fast the suspension actually can physically move the internal parts. There is a delay here added to the 3ms, and then how long after this does the suspension feel different, oil takes time to move. This is all kind of moot though as the end result certainly impressed RC and sounds good. But given how hard they were trying to wow us with these reaction numbers it seems relevant.

More importantly it seems to me a reasonable comparison would be a bike with a fully remote adjustable suspension. RC didn’t compare this, he just compared it being off and on, I would hope turning the live on and off would be a stark contrast, but so is putting my rear shock from open to closed or mixed on my manually controlled EVOL. Is the extra $2000 worth it over this?!? I would guess not for most since most do not have “money to burn”.
  • + 1
 @wooooo: Ali barber and the 40 thieves.
  • - 1
 Their numbers, not mine...
  • + 2
 Marketing people pay the students from other majors to do their math homework.
  • + 138
 Argh, I dont want a computer on my bike. Guess I'm just getting old
  • + 108
 HAHA, 3k USD to open and close your suspension.
  • + 14
 Argh! Don't buy a bike with electronics on it then!!!
  • - 4
flag nyhc00 (Aug 28, 2018 at 8:48) (Below Threshold)
 1step closer to being a dirtbike.
  • + 14
 E-suspension, E-drivetrain... now if they only made a bike that pedaled itself... hmmmm.....
  • + 7
 @nyhc00: Dirtbikes dont have this
  • + 65
 I can finally build a $20000 bike.
Yeti SB150
  • + 4
 @nyhc00: Guess what will be getting Dynamix? Motos!
  • - 3
 @ Jolinwood Then don't buy it.

#fixedyourproblem
  • + 19
 $3000 to save me what fraction of a second?
Nah, saving my pennies for a Charger 2 upgrade and something from the Vorsprung catalog.
  • + 1
 @shishkah:

just missing an emotor, gearbox, and throttle too... then you're f'n golden.
  • + 143
 I find it ironic that the same people who spend their time on a website dedicated to tracking new developments in the sport of mountain biking are so reliably ANTI literally every new development in the sport of mountain biking.

I mean, I get it to some extent. Boost and Super Boost and 27.5 and 29 and fat and plus and Di2 and electronic goggles...it can get to be a bit much. But, guys, this is freaking cool! Suspension that adjusts to the trail virtually instantaneously, so you can have as much cush as you want with zero loss of pedaling efficiency. That is amazing!

I can understand why some people won't want it. For that price and for the kind of riding I do, I doubt I'll ever buy one (at least not until it comes spec'd on the alloy model). But can't you still just sit back and appreciate that this is some really really cool technology, and be glad that you're in a sport that is progressing at a faster rate than probably any other in the world? That's a good thing! Be happy!
  • + 12
 @mpcremata: That would be cool if it did what you describe but it doesn't. This is just a valve that opens and closes the lockout on your fork and shock. It's the electronic version of the brain from Specialized (which was also useless). It doesn't adjust your LSC/HSC or rebound on the fly depending on your terrain and how your riding. Now that would be cool! But I own a shockwiz and the recommendations from that thing are useless half the time so we're still a long long way from that.
  • + 6
 @mpcremata: Spot on! I have been riding since the mid 80's. Though I have never been an early adopter of tech, (I'm still on a 26" Devinci) I appreciate all the advances that let me ride better, faster and in more comfort despite my age. I just hope the hub/axle standards settle out though before I buy my next frame.
  • + 33
 @mpcremata:

gtfo - we're only impressed by new long travel 29ers with space for 19 water bottles.
  • + 3
 I don't want it on my bike, but I would 100% want this on an ebike.
  • + 1
 @Wilovanny: someone needs to get Two Chains on this, like stat...
  • + 50
 @mpcremata: I can only answer for myself, but I work on computers that change their interface and require updates for no real added value all the time, my car is a computer with an engine, my phone is a computer in which i store a list of no less than 58(!) different account names and passwords, my earphones are wireless and hence turn off at will because their batteries are 2 years old, my apple tv is about to get replaced by a cable because its an old version with useless streaming. Even my TV is a computer, it has some apps that are useless. I heard on the news the last week that thousande of people in china has an AI app as their best friend.

I think that one of the best things that has happened to me in the last couple of years was starting biking in my local forest. Because the bike takes me to the forest. It keeps me fit and its great fun but most of all its the temple of trees and wind in the leaves and rain and mud and stones and roots and I think a human needs that. The day my Canyon Striv-eBrain 20GHz automatically shuts down to initiate an update im gonna go down on my knees and cry. (readthiswithagrainofsalt) Happy biking. Be it analogue or digital according to personal preferenceSmile
  • + 4
 @Jolinwood: Fair enough. Honestly, for the most part, I'm pretty much right there with you. I ride a 1x hardtail because I love simplicity. I just think it's funny that I read about all this amazing new technology on this site and, no matter how cool it sounds, I can 100% bet on the comments section being overwhelmingly negative. For such a "cool" sport, we sure come off like a bunch of "back in my day" old men on here. Anyway, I do get your point. My commentary wasn't so much directed at you, I just hit reply on the first negative comment I saw. Happy biking to you too Smile
  • + 2
 @Wilovanny: this suspension for UNNO on Di2, ax biturbo wheelset, Procore, magura dropper, pedals with watt meters, enve stem, Thomson Ti bar, Cane Creek crankset! Yes!

And the peasants be like: awrghhhh!!!
And the bloke on S-Works E29 coil: nooooooo!
  • + 13
 @mpcremata:
the most ironic thing is that they demo’ed it on the very bike that don’t need it since its suspension is allready locked by 150% antisquat at sag (32/50) and 25deg+ pedal kickback for the same gear combination...
Bikes with less AS/PK (i.e. Suspension Working with less transmission interactions) will benefit far more from this technology.
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: Never have we needed the CTHULHU command stem more than now!
  • + 8
 @mpcremata: Yet another step away from the organic element of riding a bike. It's a bit of electromechanical stuff that like most other electromechanical stuff is going to be obsolete before the bits are dry from me typing what I'm typing & worse yet ... electromechanical stuff has a nasty habit of failing which would truly suck after the months planned and money spent on that bucket list riding destination and then *BAM* electromechanical stuff failure and not a soul around you knows how to fix it or has the stuff to fix it anywhere near you.
  • + 1
 @Jolinwood:

JW, reminds me of one my fav sci-fi films ever, Her. Not that far off......
  • + 1
 This will be great in 2022; smaller and cheap.
  • + 1
 @mpcremata: Agreed! Henry Ford once said if I ask people what they wanted, they'd say a faster, stronger horse. Bike tech and the information provided about it is cool shit. Haters going to hate though.
  • + 1
 @Double-Dee: Fallacy of logic detected...

People need/ed automobiles. They don't need suspension that locks/unlocks itself.

We now have bikes that pedal themselves, shift gears at the push of a button, and suspension that locks/unlocks itself. Don't people want to ride bikes anymore?
  • - 1
 @m1dg3t: fallacy of logic detected...

You imply that manually locking out one's suspension is the reason they ride in the first place.

I for one have never looked down at my shock and gotten excited by flipping the lsc lever. Excited for the implication that switching it means the fun part if the ride is about to begin maybe, but not in the action itself.
  • - 2
 @mixmastamikal: now sold as dropper stem option as well.
  • + 2
 I think it's going in the right direction and I rather have this on my bike than shimano Di2 because there are real benefits over non electric suspension.
But fox did really miss a big opportunity on this one. Why do I need hsc lsc hsr and lsr on a electric fork or shock? The sensors should be able to detect if there is a fast or a slow compression or rebound and set the valve accordingly. So the electronics should completely replace complicated damper systems. So you have a fork with a simple damper wich is cheap and easy to service and reliable and all the damping characteristics come from the software wich controls the valve. Electronics are way cheaper in mass production than high end damper systems. This could be a way to produce cheaper and better suspension.
  • - 1
 @emptybox: except in every single suspension industry, electronics are added on top of already expensive valving making everything even more expensive. If you buy any form of suspension tuning for your car, like active suspension, (including complete polestar package for Volvo) it costs much more. You won’t get RS to make electronic valving for Tora turnkey, rather for Sid World Cup XX
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns:
I know but it has so much potential. Take a good fork chassis and put a cheap damper with one electric valve in it. If the virtual setup is good it can be better than any other fork. Also the electronics can compensate for heat expansion and heat viscosity change so you could use super cheap oil
  • + 0
 @sspiff: Are you literate? You sure suck at reading comprehension.

I don't dink around with my knobs. I just ride my bike. Usually the HT.
  • + 1
 @Wilovanny: I can't wait to see a dentist on an SB-150 with Enve CK wheels, Sram Eagle-tap, E-verb dropper, Quark power meter, and Fox LV.
  • + 1
 @MikeAzBS: Quark power meter is for peasants. Powerfap, sorry Powertap pedals cost almost double.
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: good point, and to stand out amongst other dentists it's best to use a Power Meter in conjunction with Powertap pedals simultaneously lol! Might be over 20k now!
  • + 0
 @MikeAzBS: PowerFap!
  • + 1
 @emptybox: Great, so racers can hack the other bikes... I don't like where my imagination is going with this... Big Grin
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: @Wilovanny: Don't forget the Gemini bar/stem, Trickstuff brakes, Tune ceramic hubs, CB pedals, and ELEVENSIX.
  • + 0
 @mtbikeaddict: True that! Good eye with Eleven Six and trickstuff brakes. But I think Bike Ahead Biturbo S are still pricier than tune ceramic hubs with enve and aerolites
  • + 1
 @m1dg3t: people didn't need cars at all. Humans got by for thousands of years without them. People wanted better ways of getting around. Then came a horse. Then a horse with buggy to carry more people and their stuff (think early minivan) and so on.

They don't need this but many will want it cause for some it will be a bragging point and others for simplicity. Some may even put it on their electrics and remove virtually all effort required to ride a bike and that's ok, it's their bike.

I'm on two full rigid bikes so I'm out.
  • + 1
 @tkaszuba: I imagine that for a lot of the riders I speak to when they ask me about adjusting suspension that they would get in the right range faster with a shock wiz and a stop watch than they would without it. I'm not saying that it does not have some issues and obviously runs an algorithm that has certain assumptions built into it but it can help. That said having the self discipline to run multiple (ie at least 4 per suspension setting: air pressure, tokens, LSR, LSC and HSC) varied test loops with a stop watch and concentrating on improvements (or not) in traction and time in various sections would also help most riders.
  • + 101
 so now i can bunny hop by pressing space bar?
  • + 4
 You can hook it up to your shimano left side shifter, because what's that for.
  • + 10
 I think it's more complicated, along the lines of up-down-up-down-a-b-a-b-select start.
  • + 9
 @OriginalDonk: *ahem* up up down down left right left right b a
  • + 1
 @ZappBrannigan: still have to press start though
  • - 1
 Lol, c strike player perhaps? I hate you
  • + 3
 Accelerate with 'W' and Manual with S. IDDQD to enter God Mode.
  • + 1
 @Ferdi-Rax: depends on the game Smile
  • + 42
 Most modern bike suspension is so well sorted that it can be run fully open all the time.

The only time I lock out my hightower is for a tarmac section. I'll save $3k and just do that myself.
  • + 31
 Good point... considering almost every Pinkbike review makes a point of saying that a specific bike was just fine with the suspension open all the time.
  • + 10
 I'm in the same boat as you, but I think you might be missing the point here. This isn't just for climbing. Imagine having your suspension firm up as you pump through rollers, berms and g-outs, and then instantly open as needed to soak up rock gardens and drops. Suspension setup has always been a compromise between support and traction / comfort. Live Valve is an attempt to eliminate that compromise.
  • + 12
 I think you're missing the (or at least "a") point. Yes your Hightower pedals very well, but to do so, the suspension has been designed with pedalling efficiency in mind.
Everything is a compromise, and we may forget it but more anti squat means more pedal kickback (I'm not a specialist, many other can give better examples) etc.

Imagine a suspension designed to perform as good as possible on the downs, and live valve takes care of the pedalling, or not having the rear end sink on climbs, etc.

We must imagine the benefits on DH type bikes, otherwise it's like saying "my hardtail already pedlas so well this is useless"
  • + 4
 @dlxah: And how exactly would the suspension know to firm up through rollers, berms and g-outs? Pretty sure that this thing just goes open on these features.
  • + 3
 @stevemokan: Yes, key point here is 'imagine' as it surely does not perform as advertised in all situations. It would need more than accelerometers to consistently deliver what people in the comments believe it is capable of doing.
  • + 0
 @Uuno: I see your point, but this would mean every model from top of line to budget would need live valve as the suspension would then suck for a regular shock. Think we are probably a long way from seeing this tech on budget models.
  • + 0
 For the Hightower it's more a out getting small bump sensitivity back. It's so firm off the top that the pedal platform is great for fire roads etc but it'sa FAR cry from high end small bump compliance of a Yeti. The new VPP make some big changes to address this exact issue with VPP bikes but they haven't updated Hightower with it yet. This is the core issue tho, for most suspension tech, comprises have to be made. Ideally live valve removes some the need for these. I won't buy it, but I see the problem they are trying to solve.
  • + 4
 @Svinyard: Instead of creating this unnecessary setup they could have reinvested their profits into R & D and actually solved this issue. I mean, VPP has been around for what ~22 years now?

Just a thought.
  • + 2
 @tkaszuba: I'm not sure exactly how Live Valve works, but I believe you could use the accelerometers to differentiate between rider input, which would be a downward acceleration of the frame and little to no upward acceleration of the wheel, versus a bump on the trail, which would be an upward acceleration of the wheel and little to no downward acceleration of the frame. Then it's just a matter of using that information to trigger the solenoid valve to open or close the compression damping.
  • + 1
 @dlxah: In the Vital mtb review they actually tried to do what you describe and they claim that it should be possible but their system kept it open so it requires some input from the rider to get it to work. Either way this is an interesting idea and if indeed it is possible to get it to work like this then there is some value to this product.
  • + 6
 @catweasel: I see this being most useful for bikes that aren't like the pivot tested. Something like the commencal's am29er or a Knolly that are designed with traction and plushness over pedalling efficiency in mind. So I find it kind of funny that it was tested on a bike where the improvement would be the most marginal.
  • + 6
 @mikeep Pinkbike testers never want to use the compression setting on pedalling section, and here they think it's great
  • + 3
 @m1dg3t: no why bother when they can do a bit of marketing and the sheep will pay up
  • + 1
 @chrismac70: "If God didn't want them sheared, he wouldn't have made them sheep" Wink
  • + 1
 @mikealive: Jesus man don't say anything perceived as "hating". You'll be skinned alive!
  • + 4
 I know right! Funny that he tested it on a DW-Link too. I actually feel like I climb worse with it locked out on a DW-Link.
  • + 38
 Marketing could have been better on this. They needed a name that let people know that there's a computer involved. I dunno, something like...Smart Shock. Then maybe to further differentiate this from their regular suspension, they could do a high-end spin off brand. They'd need a name that's futuristic and a bit vague. Like some random letter and number combo that has loose ties to alpine life. Like K2 or something.

K2 Smart Shock. That'd be a cool name, right?
  • + 8
 shock-O-tronic ftw
  • + 1
 adjust-o-matic turbo-switch turbo-thrift hydra-matic smooth-o-perator
  • + 14
 @gotohe11carolina: Thanks, I was starting to worry that nobody would get it.
  • + 1
 Lol
  • + 2
 I had one of those Smile
  • + 1
 @bj007: Did it work (at least by the standards of the day)? I remember the reviews at the time were actually pretty favourable.
  • + 2
 @big-red: yeah it worked pretty well. It was light years better than pushing oil through an elastomer (girvin ods, etc). But noleen did, and still does know what they're doing.
  • + 1
 Brain.
  • + 1
 @big-red: It did work pretty well. The only problem was the electronics stopped working in my second season of riding it, and it was a terrible suspension design on its own. Every watt of pedal force made the rear suspension bob. It looked different too, so everyone wanted to talk about it.
The bike is still cooler than I am!
  • + 36
 Some dude on a single-speed rigid fat bike is laughing at his screen right now.
  • + 40
 That dude never saw this.
  • + 7
 saw that dude actually pass me on a steep climb a few weeks back... no joke. simplify beotch.
  • + 1
 @WasatchEnduro: I wouldn’t do it everyday but riding a DJ on XC track is a fantastic experience (as long as you have 2 brakes and tyres like Ikons). Get into a group of slower folks too. A thing that is eye opening (and roadie cadence ,saddle glued folks should have it as mandatory exercise) is how much you can climb (and sometimes how steep) on this thing by first accelerating fast into a climb and then mashing slowly but surely up the hill.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: I actually appreciate a lot of what you say but I don't know why you think the rest of these heathens would.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: cadence drills, I'll bet no roadie has ever done those! /s
In fairness it is a bit more fun doing them off road.
  • + 1
 @dhridernz: the problem is that I bet more mountainbikers do roadie cadence drills than BMX gate starts. Road is considered as the only developed/ scientifically researched athletic discipline whereas pro BMXers pound out more momentary Watts than track cyclists and olympic sprinters. Guess which matters more than an average Endurobro, performance on fireroad climb or acceleration on singletrack #wegotitallwrong
  • + 29
 This has e-bike written all over it, all integrated into the battery system (and probably cost £12k)

Being realistic, I like this kind of innovation, it is development and wont mean we end up with bikes that we cant swap weels between because one of them is 5mm wider and 0.5% stiffer, we wont all be forced into sucking up this crap, it will be for people with ultra deep pockets only (at least for now)
  • + 22
 I remember being skeptical of disc brakes and then dropper posts. I know no battery is involved but I am looking forward to the day my gears, dropper and suspension can be controlled through one battery without the need for any cables. I'll still paddle my own butt up the hill until I get too old. This stuff makes more sense to me to develop than widening my hub by 3mm or re-standardizing my shock stroke. Now just wait 10 years for it to become affordable.
  • + 1
 I had the same thought about disc brakes and droppers (wrong). Now, I still hate the idea of another battery to charge but I admit my suspension settings are always a compromise (usually toward squishy because, like RC, I often forget to open it up at the top of a climb). RC, you make a good argument. Maybe my next 6 inch bike will have this. If it breaks, I'll still have my hardtail.
  • + 21
 This stuff is pretty cool, but keep in mind it is the equivalent of buying a 4k tv in 2013. High cost for being an early adopter. Within the next decade I would imagine most higher end bikes will be running something of this sort by default
  • + 5
 Maybe, but part of what drives down costs of advanced technology is people actually buying them, which in turns drives further development and reduced costs. Throw in some competition and 5 years later you've got a few options, all much cheaper than when a single manufacturer originally debuted the tech. The problem with our sport is that only Fox and SRAM have the funding the pursue projects like these and be prepared for the loses. X-Fusion, MRP, SR Suntour, DVO and even Ohlins don't want to spend money developing such technology when they know so few will buy. If the Live Valve or similarly electronic valving was more universal, I think you'd see some reduced costs to consumer, but if anything I think the technology has gotten more expensive as the years go by because Fox in particular knows how little profit is to be made on it.
  • + 2
 @PHeller: "only Fox and SRAM have the funding etc"
Not to say the marketing machinery or OEM contracts to force it's way into the market, either there is demand or not.
  • + 7
 @PHeller: Ohlins has electronic suspension dampening on Panigales. They probably just don't even see the point of wasting time with this. At what point does buying a bicycle become totally absurd though (if it hasn't reached that level already)? Racers still take it off their bikes often times anyways in place of other traditional and specifically better valved stuff, and that's like a $25k motorbike. Now we're looking at $12k bicycles and you can get a showroom leftover ZX10R with you know... a damn motor, and traction control and a slipper clutch and blah blah for that much money... its just getting to be ridiculous, pinnacle of tech or not. You can compare it all day to buying a Moto2 bike for $100k or a McLaren or whatever as how niche its supposed to be. Still a pedal bike at the end of the day.
  • + 0
 This is for all those over-biked riders running pillowy 160mm rigs on rails to trails and fire roads. Run the proper amount of travel on a proper trail and you'll be fine with setting your suspension up properly, and leaving it at that. Want advancements... how about a shock that does not blow up multiple times from hard riding. Give me simple, durable, functional stuff. Keep your bells and whistles.
  • + 2
 @MikerJ: I agree with you on the shock not blowing up but man it's nice to have a 160mm bike that pedals as good as my 2011 140mm trail bike. We can't all have more than one bike and I'm trying to keep up with my kindergartener on the DH races. Must have the travels
  • + 3
 @Svinyard: "We can't all have more than 1 bike"

Yes we can. Buy 2nd hand. Wink

Smile
  • + 18
 Could you elaborate on the word "algorithm"? Would be interesting to hear whether they've opted to go with a classical PID Control method or a modern State-Space control for preventing oscillation in the control of the solenoid valve. What embedded systems have you used? Did you need an FPGA for the speed you wanted or separate MCUs? ARM or AVR? 8-bit or 32-bit? How are you coping with temperature variations - is everything milspec?

Surprised at the inability to integrate into Di2. If Shimano uses High-Speed CANBus - speeds of upto 1MBit/s could be achieved. Bicycles are in a low SNR environment too so don't see why this isn't possible... These cables are also in a rugged environment, so are likely shielded too.

All it would take is for Fox, Shimano and SRAM to adopt the same H/S CANBus Protocol and all their devices could play nicely with each other. Work together and give each device its own specific address space and signalling. Heck - it would mean that you could use a Shimano motor, with an electronic SRAM groupset, with Fox Live Valve....... but that would mean corporate partnership... and you wouldn't be able to force customers into buying your entire device range... which is not a profitable business model. Would be a pro for the consumer, but big con for the likes of Fox/SRAM/Shimano.

The downside with the introduction of electronics onto a bicycle is that you take the power to maintain your ride out of the consumer... for a "low" (read: high) fee for the software to interface with the devices. Additionally, every brand will inevitably use their own comms protocol, meaning lack of compatibility between devices. It also means these companies can also withold their protocol too to prevent 3rd parties from manufacturing alternatives and adapters thus narrowing the market and creating a monopoly.

I'd personally like to see each company publish what comms protocol their using and a specification on how their devices talk to each other. This opens the door to 3rd parties such as "One Up Components" to produce alternatives for the consumer and keep cycling "open source".

The nightmare scenario would be that if you wanted to upgrade your shock in the future, you'd have to change your Fork, groupset, motor, battery AND controllers... because they all work on different protocols.

Nah, I'd stick to good old fashioned cables and hydraulics...... interchangeable between all brand components.
  • + 20
 Holy crap is this comment part of your CV to apply to work at fox?
  • + 2
 Aside from the elaborate signaling in the first half of this post, I really couldn't agree more--well put!
  • + 3
 @Jabber127: if this is part of his effort to be hired as an electrical engineer by fox, then his elaborate signaling is fine by me
  • + 7
 @Duffersss: wow you went full nerd modus on this one! It is an open loop system and the solenoid is either open or closed, so good luck for running a PID in there. My guess is a much simpler 2-step controller with a bunch of fancy algorithm dynamically adjusting the setting points and thus hysteresis. Since the sensors are wired and there is probably no need for time consuming wireless protocols any modern 16 bit microcontroller running at a couple of MHz speed can do the job if programmed properly. What do you mean with mil spec? They are hundreds of them. Did you mean proper environmental qualifications and making sure that the box is immune against electromagnetic interferences? I would be surprized if not, although probably only basic tests have been performed.

I guess the main issue with Di2 or any wireless comm is latency, not speed, and that is why FOX went full wires. Or maybe just shimano asking for too much money for the protocol? The fact that FOX did not use a Di2 battery to power the system is actually already a good hint on how the "common standard for electronically controlled bicycle components, rev. A" discussions went between them.
  • + 4
 @pads: haha sorry, I work with electronics so I'm just interested in where the industry's going! Open loop would be very risky - no feedback could mean the solenoid get's set in the wrong position for a gradient change?

I've got a bad feeling it's as you've said. SPDT switch on a solenoid that just opens/closes a value dependent on gradient and impact.... hopefully it's much more involved with a variable value & a little bit more computation!

Milspec in being able to stand -10 to +80 (or so). This sort of stuff will need to be able to withstand harsh Canadian winters!

I understand why wireless introduces latency, but surely there could be a standardised wired protocol? Yes they will all use CANBuss - but if everyone agreed on a common set of rules for using the CANBus address-space/identifier then it'd be better for the industry as a whole.

At the end of a day, a 7.4-volt Lithium Ion battery, is a battery. If the battery datasheet aligns with another manufacturer's (discharge rate, capacity, max/min voltage etc) - no matter what "brand" you print on it - they're compatible. Even a sensible choice of SMPS would allow a Di2 battery to be used in this system... either as you say Shimano doesn't want to play ball, or Fox want to seek another method of grabbing cash.

If only someone specificied a standard set of connectors on an e-bike battery for: shifters, dropper, groupset and suspension... or am I living in fantasy land?
  • + 2
 @Duffersss: The Di2 battery isn't just a battery, it's more like a battery-shaped computer with an onboard power source. Quite a lot of firmware determines how and to what it delivers current. While Shimano and Fox have worked together before, I doubt either company wants to be joined at the hip when it comes to updates on either platform.
  • + 0
 It would indeed be big bonus if there would be common battery system and communication wires+connectors for the electronically controlled stuff, would make it possible to mold wires in carbon frames etc. Also this would likely increase sales of these gadgets eventually, as it would be less of a hassle for customers to actually install and use these(ie. if someone would want to use LiveValve and Di2, they would now seem to need two separate systems, batteries and cables).

It seems that Shimano uses some of their own encrypted protocol, although the physical bus would be some sort of CAN bus . So if Fox doesn't want to use that protocol(due to delay), they can't use same bus for power&communication.

The Di2 battery is probably not much more than just a battery, the brains of that system is elsewhere. Problem is likely that as it uses 2 wire system, the same bus can't be used with different protocols(see the above)....
  • + 2
 @alexdi: A battery is just a battery! Granted, the Li-Ion will have a standard undervoltage controller which is universally required on all Li-Ion batteries, but the MCU that Shimano uses will communicate using a standardised protocol such as CANBus. Wouldn't be too hard to address the Shimano MCU with a message such as "Hey, how much capacity does the battery have left?".

@Vertti83: I'd highly doubt that Shimano is encrypting *wired* communications to it's equipment over a simple 2 wire interface. What would the encryption achieve? Wireless is a different story, but I'd be surprised if that's also encrypted. Likely just a specific CDMA code to prevent interference and to offer a light layer of physical security. "2 Wire Interface" would also mean a standard protocol - which would more than likely be CANBus. (CANBus uses 2 wires, has the best SNR for outdoor environments). Developing your own transceivers for an entirely new interface standard would take a lot of R&D, custom silicon chips to be manufactured, silicons dies etc... not the sort of thing a company like Fox who manufacture suspension dampers would get involved in. Much more commercially viable to use a proven and existing system.

But what would I know? I'm probably just an armchair engineer bashing my keyboard in the Pinkbike comments section spouting fancy acronyms! Probably.
  • + 1
 @Duffersss:

CAN bus is standardised, but there are different versions of it, so all devices that use CAN bus aren't directly talking same language. The physical layer of CAN bus might be just one standard(or two, High speed and Low speed) so no need to develop own HW, but there are several different lower and higher layer standards for CAN bus protocols, as well as bus speeds, so "CAN bus" is not just one thing, the format in which the data is moved on the bus can vary.

Encryption wasn't probably the best word to describe what I was after, better would be: some non-standard higher layer implementation for the Shimano stuff, and it would be to prevent 3rd party devices to be connected to same bus controlling or being controlled by Shimano Di2 components. Also they can't patent standard CAN protocols(to prevent others using it in commercial products).

The Di2 components draw also their power from the 2 wire CAN bus, I'm not sure if that is working very well with standard CAN bus either (although the power the shifters draw is very small, so might not be that difficult).
  • + 1
 > If Shimano uses High-Speed CANBus - speeds of upto 1MBit/s could be achieved.

I think they were concerned with latency, not bandwidth.
  • + 16
 I've nothing against innovation, but I'll wait for:

1. The majority of EWS pros to use this, sponsored or not.
2. Gen 2, or whenever they manage to integrate this without a rat's net of wires, controllers and batteries.
3. The price to come wayyyy down.

Also, I still think there will always be something wonderful about a suspension design that is so well executed that these party tricks aren't really needed.
  • + 3
 Totally agree. While this makes sense and sounds good, $2000 extra is absolutely eye watering. I'd love to see the actual cost to manufacture this. I know they have to recoup R&D costs but I feel like they'd do better by selling more volume at a (much) lower price.
  • + 2
 electronic suspension is quickly becoming the industry standard in auto sports racing. The future of high performance suspension is this. Its like film VS digital photography. Film still can, under certain conditions, out perform digital, but for most people ( including the pros) digital is superior.
  • - 1
 @mhaager2: It's a couple of solenoids, a couple of accelerometers, a controller, and a battery, it can't be that expensive. Off-the-self parts would probably cost $250 retail. The electronic parts and software would be an easy DIY project (if you've ever done any Arduino style projects), but the machining required to mate the solenoids with the shocks' compression circuit is not a DIY project.
  • + 2
 @dthomp325: A modern quadcopter control board runs a 32bit arm processor, has both an accelerometer and gyrosope, and the ability to do just what you are describing with the correct code. It even has data logging to a micro sd card. Retail price is around $30 US. I'm pretty sure the solenoid is not all that expensive. So with enough ingenuity, a home mechanic could produce something for even less than $250. But I bet the same ingenious people probably also know how to shim their dampers, which provides suspension performance much, much better than stock, without the need for a battery.
  • + 2
 #1 is key. People ask my why I think plus is goofy. The fastest XC pros and the fastest EWS/DH pros use similarly sized tires.
  • + 1
 @scotthy72:

This is exactly what I've been playing in my mind, to use quad copter FC for this kind of purpose. Or initially the idea was to use it as el-cheapo DIY data aquisition unit, it would not be too difficult to connect different sensors like cadence, frontwheel speed, brake lever position, maybe even some sort of suspension position measurement.

Same board could be used for controlling the pro-pedal lever of the shock with some simple servo motor. The basic idea would be the opposite as with LiveValve, suspension would be by default open, and when certain conditions are filled, it would close the pro pedal. Lapierre e:i system was quite similar to how this would work...
  • + 1
 > The majority of EWS pros to use this, sponsored or not.

That's the thing that stuck out to me. The article claims they waited until it was proven, but it's not on anyone's bike at this time especially not racers (EWS or not)? So how is it proven?
  • + 1
 @Vertti83: just have it talk to a power meter- closes the shocks when you're pedaling.
  • + 12
 I’m intrigued by this. Not going to lie. I don’t have a problem with electronics on my bike.

Feel like this is aimed more at making averge riders a little better than taking advanced riders to the next level. Otherwise they would have put this on to the X2. For people too dumb/lazy to set up their suspsnesion this is a godsend.

I can see the average dentist/lawyer type taking about how great this after riding 4.5 miles on the local IMBA flow trail. “Made me so much faster”

Anything that makes mountain biking easier and more accessible is good right...

The fact that no EWS guys have taken a chance on this in a race tells me all I need to know.
  • + 1
 Average riders better? After what? Selling an arm and a leg for a not even necessary part on a basic functioning bike? I'll take my average skills to a brand spanking new Alu SC 5010 for the cost of this thing, it's the price of a whole frickin' bike!!!!!
  • + 4
 I agree, this will be of no interest to racers because it surely cannot be predictive and responsive enough given the fact that it is first generation product and the only sensors are accelerometers. In other words - i think it would be dangerous for race speeds. But just as with every innovation, the ordinary people who buy it and see a benefit in it are those who are responsible when one day it becomes perfect enough for serious application.It took electronic stabilty control in cars 10-15 years to become of significant help for racing drivers so that they would consider it at all.At the beginning if you want to drive a car fast you simply switched it off, now you set it to one of the 20 settings it has and adapt it to your likings. I believe it is a solid beginning, but needs some time.

On another note: the article seems pushed to promote it and that is a no-like!
  • + 2
 @sh4dy: good analogy with stability control. Only the truly great drivers are faster without it and the average joe will end up spinning their mustang in to a tree.
  • + 3
 @wibblywobbly: as an average rider I recon the one thing / upgrade that improved my riding performance and fun factor, was hitting the damn gym, and doing bike specific workout. Pretty cheap investment with high return in a short time. But your right, I can also see busy and rich folks buying this as they rather buy “fitness” then work for it, just to get left in the dust by some bum looking guy on the clapped out 26er. Big Grin
  • + 1
 @evanguthrie , what's the word...did you use this at EWS Whistler? Evan finished 22nd in Pro btw racing the same Pivot 5.5 he's riding in the LiveValve videos.
  • + 1
 @eveono , sorry.
  • + 2
 So what does it do while you're manualing? Doesn't matter, cause the people riding it don't do manuals.
  • + 10
 FFS bike industry - you cant even make a dropper that lasts a year with out getting loads of play or turning into a pogo stick and you want to charge us £3000 for this????

Basics first you absolute numptys.

- A drivetrain that doesnt need to be me adjusted lubed cleaned all the frikin time.
- Forks that dont need servicing every 2 months
- Wheels that dont explode and loose spokes.every 6 months
- Tyres that actually last more than 5 days in the Alps but are actually grippy
- Cable roiuting that doesnt rattle
- BBS tat last more that 3 months and dont sqeak
- Sensible pricing

Fix all that sh*t before staring with your electronic gonaddery - you total bellends.
  • + 1
 Go buy an old zocchi..
  • + 11
 "Live valve cant fix stupid"

That's for sure, or it would prevent anybody from spending 3k on it.
  • + 9
 Are we at the point where the rider doesn't matter? Is the industry catering to the lazy, dumb and unskilled? This had zero review and all paid advertisement.
  • + 3
 @drunknride " Is the industry catering to the lazy, dumb and unskilled? " Of course. They did their market research. This group far outnumbers the hardworking, smart and skilled riders. It would be stupid to cater to the smart.
  • + 9
 Oh wow, they found a way to break the 10k$ psychological barrier on bikes, actually they haven't broken it they smashed it to smithereens.
  • + 4
 Imagine how much an e-bike with enve wheels, finishing kit, XTR and this gear would cost.
  • + 1
 Scott did that almost ten years ago with their Genius that was at $11k. Had that not-so-great twin shock deal. And lots of crabon fibre.
  • + 9
 Uh oh, they gave this one to RC to review.... Guess Fox feared any true objective commentary. Just more of the same fake news reviews. I’ll wait to see what Vital says.
  • + 10
 Yeaaahhhh neg me baby! Posted this before I read one word, just saw that it was authored by a Real Clown and then wouldn’t you know it, its the best product in a decade and works flawlessly!!! Go read the Vital review, not flawless, and no you won’t see this on any WC DH or EWS rigs. For a reason.
  • + 10
 @dtm1: continue to fight the good fight, brother.
  • + 3
 @dtm1: AMEN!!!! Can’t wait for the auto drive handlebars that auto correct you if you over steer the berm. Soon Mountain biking will be the equivalent of cruising on the boardwalk LOL.
  • + 9
 I don’t think that guy even rides hard enough to know if it’s working. I wonder how it woulda worked when he endo’ed off that rock in his last bike review.
  • + 8
 I wonder how it works when you do this:
www.pinkbike.com/photo/16063117/#cid10334436
  • + 1
 @skelldify: hahaha, front flip maybe.
  • + 6
 With a couple more "improvements" I am sure we can hit $20k.

Man o man will that be a crazy bike.

For an extra $25K, we can also get the latest implant that attaches directly into your brain and simulates the effect of riding. No actual riding required. It just feels like you are riding minus the issues of loading your bike up, driving to the hill, and then actually riding. Think of the reduced carbon footprint that will have.
  • + 2
 "Implants directly to your brain and simulates the effect or riding..."

Although a great idea, mountain biking will not be the first thing on my mind if I can have something simulated like that.
  • + 1
 @uphill-blues: why not both?
  • + 5
 My 1987 Toyota MKIII Supra Turbo had an electronically controlled suspension with 3 different valving modes for the Tokico struts; 2 Manually selectable modes + 1 mode that came on automatically above 80 MPH. It was pretty cool. I eventually installed a set of Eibach lowering springs and upgraded, aftermarket Tokico Lumina struts that worked with the factory suspension computer. That setup tracked super flat through high G-Force turns. It was a fun ride.

I find it amazing that it's taken 30+ years for similar technology to reach bicycles. Do I want it on my mountain bike? Not really. I'm just surprised it's taken this long to show up as an option...
  • + 6
 At what point does tech kill the spirit of going into the forest and riding a bike with your friends? I ride to get away from the computers and the machines I sit in front of all day. F this shite!
  • + 1
 I know what you mean. I work with technology for a living. I commute by bike, ride a tandem with the wife and also tour on a bike, ride a MTB in the forest, etc. I never put headphones on. One, it's stupidly dangerous. Two, I like being involved with the ride itself and I don't want to be distracted.
  • + 5
 Mtb suspension is way over rated... unless you are WC level racer and even some of them do not fuss with it too much i.e. Danny Hart, Luca Shaw etc.

All the time I have seen this kind of question asked to a pro "pick between a modern geometry frame with 20 years old suspension OR 20 years old geometry with modern suspension".... they usually just say they want disk brakes or modern geometry....

I like my bike to be simple, reliable and able to fix it myself, even if I am in the middle of a mountain.

Don't want to send in pieces or having to go to some random shop to fix the electronic.
Besides that, I doubt the bicycle industry has the money to actually make it work... look at the specialized failure with their similar system.
  • + 5
 ME: Right bike ride tomorrow.....................
E-Bike battery's charged
Di2 charged
Garmin charged
fit bit charged
Phone charged
go-pro charged
Suspension charged

When did riding a bike become so complex???
  • + 4
 Credit card charged
  • + 1
 @iamamodel: Ha, Brilliant!

I wish my credit card would run out of batteries
  • + 4
 Oh, man... It seemed kinda promising, but a rave from Richard "Wrong about everything involving mountain bike technology since 1988" Cunningham is the kiss of death.

I guess we'll have to wait until DT Swiss comes out with a version with forward-looking LIDAR, and then SRAM figures out a way around their patents a couple of years later. Fox will recover to become the "retro" choice - with Marzocchi their retro-retro choice.

RC will still be around 5 years later, telling you all to ride self-balancing off-road unicycles with 777mm wheels derived from F1 technology and spent Uranium valve caps. ...also, the hotel mini-bar was empty when he checked in.
  • + 4
 I remember reviews telling me that 36's were perfect. Then the review that told me that this years 36's were perfect following the forums being full of complaints about harshness (which were correct). I have been spoon-fed so much shit that I struggle to believe a single word of a review.
  • + 6
 Crud, I wanted an Ant+ controller so it could talk to my GPS. Then I could upload my suspension data to Strava and obsess over all the numbers.
  • + 1
 Then you could have ebike, live valve and normal bike leaderboards. Yay.
  • + 3
 That's more than active dampers cost on my bavarian M car. Product management and marketing at Fox there is absolutely no way you can justify this price from any perspective. Material costs and R n D plus, manuf. costs, distribution plus profit margin.... You are pushing too far too much.
  • + 6
 SIRI. Ride my bike to the trailhead. Take Strava segment 1032. Keep speed at 28.2kmh =/- 8,2% deviation.

MY DREAM!
  • + 6
 And let's not overlook the possibilities

" In the end, Fox had to develop their own electronics from scratch"

Fox has so much expertise in electronics! This will never ever lead to more new standards

"Similarly, Fox's electronic team were free to develop algorithms specific to Live Valve"

Ie Live Valve will be proprietary! Even more possibility for more standards!

"Fox estimates Live Valve's run time on a fully charged battery at 16 to 20 hours".



"The two-cell 7.4-volt Lithium Ion battery is essentially the same as the one Shimano uses for its Di2 shifting, although the two systems are not interchangeable."

Not interchangeable. What a surprise!

"My review bike was a medium-sized Pivot Mach 5.5. Pivot says the up-charge for Live Valve suspension is close to $2000 USD"

Whew. What a relief Thought it would be expensive.

"No, you don't need Live Valve to ride at the highest level, but if you have the money to burn, you'll get more performance for your dollar from Live Valve than you could hope to squeeze from electric shifting, a fancy carbon wheelset or even a sequential-shifting gearbox"

What if one were to take that money and purchase some lessons. Or a week off to ride one's bike. Nah. That's crazy talk.
  • + 1
 @leelau: Or how about we take that money and use it help poor people or preserve the environment? Just a weird idea...
  • + 3
 How does or react to a very active pedaling? Does the movement on the bikes opens the shocks? How do bunny hops and jumping feels on the bike? Is there any delay.
And how does the system deal with different riders' weights? (surprisingly a 60 kg guy weight less than a 120kg rider)
  • + 3
 $2000 upgrade feels like the bike companies are scamming you a little, full system with 36 fork, shock and everything is $3250 but a standard 36 and dpx2 shock retail for $1600, that's a $1650 difference, i hope the extra $350 isn't just lining pockets especially considering the trade prices they will actually pay for it.

Starting to feel like the very high end bikes are attached to price tags based on what they can get away with charging because that demographic can afford it rather than it actually being worth that price.
  • + 0
 On another note it does seem pretty cool in theory, the fact you don't have to remember your suspension switches is useful especially on undulating trails like race stages with lots of changing terrain and short climbs this would save lots of time and thought.
However i am a little against adding batteries and more cables/wires to already busy cockpits and frames for a start but surely simply using a remote lever (yes it still adds cables, but no batteries) would give you that same ability to adjust on the fly and to your liking rather than a computers and cost a tiny fraction of the price.
  • + 1
 "Starting to feel like the very high end bikes are attached to price tags based on what they can get away with charging because that demographic can afford it rather than it actually being worth that price."

see also ferrari, bugatti, lamboughini et al

further reading suggestions - basic economics, price elasticity of demand, r&d costs, halo products.

until the world's economic system has a whole scale change towards mass socialism and the eradication of private property [newsflash] companies will charge what they think they can get away with... (and therefore be able to pay salaries, develop new products, invest in local communities, sponsor athletes etc etc etc)
  • + 3
 I can't wait to see the first bike built specifically with this suspension. If it works as well as RC thinks it does, wouldn't this completely change design parameters for kinematics. You could build a frame with massive travel and not need to worry about bob or squat.
  • + 3
 Nope, nope, and dash of nope with that...

Why do MTB companies keep shoving electric junk down our throats? Sensors, wires, batteries... no thanks. All for marginal gains... Live valve "might" help you climb better but you could save the cash and just get in better shape. Or take a half a day with your fork/shock and actually set it up properly.

Rigid single speeds are looking pretty good right about now...
  • + 12
 Yea but its not like that boost spacing wheel which offers no real benefit, or 35mm bars, or strange bb standards, its only really for bikes that are so expensive they are an ultra small market. If you dont like electronics on a bike you can completely avoid them, while it is sometimes difficult to avoid the industries other 'bright ideas'
  • + 9
 offering it as a $2-3K optional upgrade is pretty far from "shoving it down your throat"....
  • - 1
 @justanotherusername: thats definitely true but like everything else (drive trains, brakes, etc.) this will trickle down and get cheaper and before we know it you'll need an electrical engineering degree to do basic maintenance on your bike... While Live Valve may be cool technology its completely unnecessary... and stupid expensive for basically a low speed compression adjuster.
  • + 2
 @Pisgah85: I think thats highly unlikely, even if it did are you telling me you service your own rear shock / fork damper anyway?

Its a stupid expense you wont have to go near for the forseeable future, dont worry about it.
  • + 5
 @justanotherusername: You don't service your own suspension?
  • + 1
 I'm sure people said the same thing when power windows and locks came out on cars. If you don't want it, you don't have to buy it, but it's pretty damn nice to have. This is only on top-spec'd bikes which aren't obviously priced for everyone. If anything, there will be some trickle down technology in a few years to make it more affordable for everyone. But still, that's only if you want it.
  • - 1
 That's not electric junk you've got in your throat, it's your dads...
  • + 1
 Sounds like a lot more than marginal gains.

> The Live Valve litmus test occurs when you switch it off (or run out of juice in the battery, as I did once). Every time I switched off the system for back-to-back comparison runs, it only took a minute or so before I wanted to pull over and turn it back on.
  • + 4
 If the battery, controller and sensors alone weigh 176 grams plus the Live Valve dampers are a little heaver than their regular counterparts, then how is it possible for the whole system to only add 144 grams to the bike?
  • + 6
 because they are comparing it to the garbage lockout system that Scott has that no one uses
  • + 5
 They're comparing it to a Scott that has extra weight added to it by the remote lockout system. Most bikes don't have that, so it'll be a bit more on the Pivot or Rocky or Giant.
  • + 2
 because marketing.. oh and hopefully MTB'rs can't do maths
  • + 3
 I can get behind the whole idea (sort of) and why it would appeal to some. But i like simple stuff and shall be damned if any of my bikes ever comes equipped with it. for pete's sake my whole bike costs less and i bet i'm not slower for the lack of it.
  • + 3
 This +ebike + wireless seatpost and drivetrain + Smart Navigator + Sensitive glasses= Revelation of Machines is getting closer... Go and arrest AI if you found me dead down the cliff...
  • + 4
 That will be too late. AI will figure out quite quickly that the survival of the planet will only be possible without humans, then hack the defense systems and nuke us all. Its simple mathmatics. Some of our most intelligent minds are trying to warn us and stop AI because of this *fact*?
  • + 1
 @Boardlife69: I know I know my friend... I see Cosmic Disclosure and Gaia TV after pinkbike... what a combo... They said AI signal will get removed after the Solar Flare event... and also all electronics... 10 years from now... so just an advice don´t get too dependend on this gadgets or you may forgot how to really ride a bike...
  • + 6
 Watch the comments section explode faster than an X2 with this pricing
  • + 2
 So it's active suspension for mountain bikes.

Great tech to shout about but I can't see it appearing on any of my bikes anytime soon. I just don't ride to a high enough level to get any benefit of it. It's not that I'm crap on a bike, it's just that this kind of development is only really going to benefit the top 5% of riders. Great to see the boundaries being pushed but I'm struggling to see how this can filter down to general bikes without being quite badly compromised so it will stay up there with Di2 as a plaything for rich people and a proper tool for serious racers.
  • + 2
 @Zanebodd I am a dentist and have zero desire for this. "This" includes any of the bikes that were part of the testing here and Fox suspension. The only electronic things I take on a ride with me are my phone and my Mp3 player and both are hidden away out of site and have nothing to do with how the bike rides.
  • - 8
flag onemanarmy Plus (Aug 28, 2018 at 10:46) (Below Threshold)
 Rad... so you like using equipment that makes you unsafe and puts those around you in danger. Sweet.
  • + 4
 @onemanarmy: Phone is in a ride wallet in my pocket, Mp3 player is clipped to my bib beneath my jersey and I ride with stereo to mono earbud so I can hear everything around me. No danger to anyone. farendgear.com/shortbuds/?showprod=ECSV1#prodtop
  • + 2
 @onemanarmy: wow thats an aggressive assumption.
  • + 2
 Perfect now when it doesn't work I can make an appointment at my local dealer service center to have the system analyzed, while I wait in the lounge drinking shitty coffee with a bunch of people who bought into this marvelous new technology.

Service adviser, sir it seems that you need the "updated software patch" how will you be paying for this??

Or you are somewhere in the middle of no where looking for a way to charge the battery so the Fking thing works.

Bicycles are beautiful because they are simple human power creations, bad enough we have to charge phones but my bike to thanks.
  • + 2
 Haven't read all the comments but I think this is sick and my first thought is: "My wife would love this!"

She has a bigger bike and we generally ride a lot of techy rolling trails on Vancouver Island. I'd say one of her bigger frustrations with her bike is the amount of adjustments she has to make during a ride. She came from skiing so she just wants to roll and not think about the bike.

While $3kusd is more than I'm willing to pay, if the price came down or I end up making a lot more money I'd be more than happy to throw this system on her bike so she can focus on riding rather than dorking around with stuff.
  • + 6
 Pinkbike = Mountain Bike Action
  • + 1
 OH NO U DIDN’!!
  • + 2
 This isn’t for me, I ride my bike fully open all the time. Up, down and flat! That’s on my full sus and hardtail! I’m lucky enough to have Bikes with good enough geometry, kinematics and suspension to be able to do that. A lot of people do these days. Plus other reviews have stated that the fork isn’t as good as the current best forks, so what’s the point?
  • + 4
 Wait until the Russians hack it and publish on Wikileaks that you if fact walked past all the drops and doubles you were bragging about in the pub.
  • + 2
 Game changing suspension technologies have a long history:

- Cannondale's "Simon" that used 5 different sensors. Cannondale expected trickle-down technology to show up quite soon now (this was in Sept 2009).
"Stanley Song's five years at Cannondale as a design engineer have been dedicated to bringing this project to market." Except it was never brought to market.
www.bikemag.com/gear/cannondale-unveils-simon-suspension-concept

- Fox's own Terralogic. At least maintenance info is still available on ridefox.com.

- Specialized Brain technology, claimed to not be useful anymore in May 2015, when the "brainless" Stumpjumper 2016 was introduced. Not used in front fork for the EPIC evo either.

- Cannondale's ELO Lefty. forums.mtbr.com/cannondale/lefty-elo-conversion-manual-lockout-553160.html

- GT's iDrive

- Lefty Supermax

- Unified rear triangle

A failure of your electronically controlled transmission may mean remaining stuck at the start line (just ask Nino). A failure of your electronically controlled suspension may mean going over the bars at high speed : an opportunity for a lifetime of using an advanced electronically controlled wheelchair. With all due respect for wheelchair users, heroic people they are.
  • + 2
 and the slow guys turning 40 soon with lots of money to burn will buy it in pursue of the ultimate performance... and the guys who used to be faster than them... will still be faster than them. Let it burn. At least this won't become standar and be pushed down our throats.
  • + 2
 I don't think this will be around that long, unless it becomes an add on for less then a grand in extra cost, waaaay less. New bikes are getting to the point where people will say enough is enough. But I'm sure are plenty of rich meat heads out there ready to throw down.. I can still remember my friend showing off his PROFLEX with the smart shock... We would say, How's the shock work and he would say.. this think is awesome. Which we would reply, try turning it on you. It was always a good laugh. I'm sure most riders won't even notice when the battery dies..
  • + 1
 C'mon this kind of stuff exists many years ago in automotive. Nothing new, another lie from bike industry trying to invent something that already exists, like wireless o wired drivetrains. And this device could be miniaturized more than that.
  • + 1
 I was kidding around at work the other day in our suspension service centre saying:

TFR (terrain following radar as used on most military aircraft) will be the next gimmick embraced by the MTB world. It can be used to find the smoothest lines and also have the damping set accordingly to the impacts ahead.

This is one step closer at least.
  • + 5
 I don’t believe RC rides hard enough to accurately test this system.
  • + 3
 brutal
  • + 1
 I'm game for innovation but theres just zero justification for this considering the cost and extra components that are bound to break and/or need servicing. You'll sell a couple, maybe... but it just seems like a huge waste of time and money for both Fox and the consumer. Who truly needs or even wants this?

Instead of this marketing review, I'd love to see the actual Research your team did before embarking on this journey that definitively said "Yes, this is something the industry wants - and our target consumer is xyz"
  • + 1
 Sry for the neg rep, hit the wrong button. “Marketing review”... couldn’t agree more!
  • - 1
 If people weren't asking for it do you really think the money would have been spent to develop it?
  • + 1
 The price is crazy, so that is a serious minus. Also , this is one more thing that I might forget to check before a ride , that will really screw it. If i forget to charge my garmin, oh well, but if my suspension won't work, that sucks. The battery life seems like crap. The sound might be annoying. However, I love the idea of not really having to mess with my suspension, that is something I prefer not to do. If I could ask for my dream product it would be a derailer that did not need to be tuned , and was not such a pain to dial in.
  • + 1
 Wow, another glowing shill-tastic review of a new innovation with ZERO downsides! Reads like a pill ad with the disclaimers at the end left off.

Another review states:
1. Timing off at times, causing suspension to spike
2. Over damped
3. Inconsistent at times
4. A constant clicking noise can be heard as the solenoids transmit!

Not a Fox hater, I frankly prefer their suspension over all others most of the time.

But come on with the sales-pitch reviews!!!

The list for all objectivesly written Real Clown reviews begins here:
1. _______
  • + 8
 What site has the contrasting review? Would be curious to read both and come to my own conclusions. . .
  • + 8
 I cant agree more, the main reason i hate all product or bike reviews is all they do is blow smoke up your a$$. I want real reviews, be critical, tell me everything about it. not just that it's new there for it's better so go out and buy one. if you only went off reviews you'd have no idea what to buy because everything is awesome and perfect at everything
  • + 6
 May cause loss of scalp and penis
  • + 4
 @grundletroll: go to enduro-mtb.com
That is what I do if I want real reviews...
  • + 5
 RC gave the same glowing review for XTR Di2 and still nobody is running that.
  • + 13
 I dunno, they did list a deal-killing downside actually - the $3000+ price.
  • + 8
 Classic one sided stuff from RC. "Ive been riding dual suspension bikes forever so i f*ckin know. Ok? Trust me, I am here to tell you THIS is the best thing ever." About as good as his piece on the Patagonia trip to Utah...
  • + 8
 Welcome to the world of journalism. It's been like this for years and years. Paper magazines always have raving reviews so that those companies will spend their ad dollars with them and they can continue publishing their magazines. Pinkbike is essentially just an electronic magazine updated daily. Write enough bad reviews and have all of your advertisers leave, and now you have no money to keep the magazine going.
  • + 4
 @whilgenb: www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/category/components/rear-shocks/product/fox-live-valve-review-52192

They had some minor issues in some of the settings but the main take away was that it was a minimal improvement for mega £££.
  • + 3
 We need a shoot out between this and k2 smart shocks, the other big player in the electronic suspension industry
  • + 6
 @huntstyle: Oh, I thought it was just a coincidence that the entire front page of PB was splattered with Fox Live Valve ads at the same time the review dropped...
  • + 16
 @dtm1, you're overstating the few negatives mentioned in another review in order to try and discredit RC. I'm not sure why, but in any case, here's what that other review said without the selective summarization:

1. Spiking: "Just unlucky timing, and honestly not something I felt really deserved any more attention than a mention."

2. "It felt over-damped at times on the Scott Genius." --- RC was on a Pivot Mach 5. Different bike, likely a different tune, and he had the ability to alter the Live Valve setting.

3. Different feeling when bunnyhopping: "more time with the system would allow me to learn how it reacts, and I am confident it would become more predictable"

4. Sound: "very light clicking action as the valve opens and closes," audible only on "slower climbs without the wind in your face." - It's not mentioned in the review, but RC said it sounded like a tiny ball bearing dropping, and it wasn't distracting.

The nice thing about Pinkbike is that all of the editors are easy to contact. It's as simple as writing something like, "Hey @RichardCunningham, did you notice...?" and you'll have an answer from someone who's actually ridden the product that's being reviewed. Although calling names usually won't get you a very helpful response, at least in my experience.
  • + 7
 @mikekazimer: With respect Mike, in all fairness to the guys above, the Bike Radar review (I don't think that's the review you refer to) used the Mach 5 and it looks from a skim read like the gains were marginal at best, not suited to an efficient pedaling platform, made bunnyhopping weird, and definitely nowhere near as great as what RC was stating. Each to their own obviously, and perhaps RC loved it (we all know he's well into his tech!).

I'm not saying that it's a bad thing or poor tech, and don't really have a strong opinion about it. the BR review included time comparisons with the system on and off as well. I'm not saying they're right either but it was a bit further from RC's review than your example.

All that said, I'm not sure why this article garnered so much frustration - PB editor liked it, BR one didn't seem that impressed with the gains, your example seems somewhere in between. We should all be reading around more on things like this to get a balanced view. It surprises me that people read different opinions on things then get frustrated with the opinions at either end of the same bell curve.
  • + 2
 @Trailstunter: since I'm sickly addicted to mountain biking I also read enduro-mtb......and a dozen others
  • + 6
 @mikekazimer: classy response but like any customer feedback (I'm in eng sales) it's good to recognize the bit of truth stuffed in the turd sandwich and address it (which your latest reviews seemingly have). I think if you and other regular dudes banged on this stuff for a bit, you'd have more of an objective response than this review which was a bit "puffy". We want the hard truth and something tells me this has a bunch of sugar coating on it needlessly.
  • + 0
 @mikekazimer: I read PB and and Vital's review, much the same points raised. Though highlighting the number of times racers in XCO uses lock-out is good point to compare. On the other hand, the clicking sound of solenoid is a + for me, confirming that the live valve is working Smile . To conclude, reviewers has nothing to write sound cons about it.
  • + 0
 @mikekazimer: Mike, thanks for the reply. I can see how it would appear to you that I was overstating things, especially when I’m slamming your buddy. I certainly was not; for the sake of brevity and clarity, I summarized and did so accurately. You notice I didn’t reference the other site on here, because that would just be low class. So give me the benefit of the doubt for a moment here...

The article reads like a sales pitch. It is highly biased, and not at all objective. The other reviews mention several negatives, and they are congruent with each other. So either RC missed what everyone else noticed, or he is the one overstating things.

Now let’s look at his CV from both MBA and PB. His reviews are borderline press releases. He is not critical (which definitionally is what reviewers ought to do- critique!) He is constantly singing the praises of his component-du-jour. As I challenged in my post: Let’s hear about all the impartial, unbiased reviews & articles he has written?

Here’s why this bugs me, and btw I don’t take slamming a guy’s livelihood lightly. But were talking about outright dishonesty. He holds himself out as a objective, non-affiliated guy who is here to use his background and engineering knowledge to tell us, the consumer, about the latest products. And that couldn’t be further from the truth. I’m not saying Shimano writes him checks directly, but there are clearly “secret profits”, quid pro quos and benefits he is deriving from his whitewashed “reviews”... even if it is simply to endear himself to manufacturers in order to get selected for more reviews.

I can admire you sticking up for him and defending him. I’m sure you’re a great friend, and its not often ppl stick their necks out for others, so good on you. But lets not get off topic; you can pick apart my post, but what you’re NOT saying is: “He writes fair, impartial, objective reviews, and has the reader’s best interest in mind”. He has the rep of writing puff pieces for a reason.
  • + 2
 @dtm1: "Outright dishonesty"? Seriously? Out of order, mate. Well out of order. I rate Richard's reviews because he's been there, seen that and bought the tee shirt. I thought this particular review was insightful and well researched, though he did let Fox off easy on the truly ridiculous pricing.

But to lay the boot in and call a bloke dishonest... poor form.
  • + 2
 @dtm1 : Different reviewers will have different experiences and different opinions - especially when riding the system on different bikes. That's not necessarily evidence of dishonesty.

I completely agree with the suggestion about reading different sources to get a more balanced picture, but then i would say that as i work for a different website!
  • + 4
 Interesting system. I’d like to try it one day. But at $3k a pop, I doubt I will see one on my nearby trails anytime soon.
  • + 1
 Great. So if you're under about 200lbs, you still get an overdamped high speed compression circuit. How about adding compression clickers? Last time I had a motocross bike with 3 compression clicks was like 1979.
Not everyone who rides is the same weight.
  • + 1
 Cmon!! I had to jump to a 1x transmission for had a clear-wires bike... So: Rear derailleur, rear brake, front brake, dropper, front sensor, rear sensor... 6 wires!! At least I don't have lock suspension/shock wires... (8 wires!!)
  • + 1
 I won't be paying for this until the price comes down a lot, but it's definitely an interesting bit of tech. It's a basic (although already refined) sensor platform from which much can come out - like the smartphone of mountain bike suspension and this is the Steve Jobs presentation.
  • + 1
 I love what it can do to a bikes suspension as advertised in their promotional video. How well it performs and how durable it is will determine if this is the future of bike suspensions years down the road. It looks promising and even though I can't afford it, it'll still be cool to see the pro's use it while racing.
  • + 3
 This is just getring f*cking ridiculous, it even starts out by saying just ride your bike. We dont need f*cking computer bikes peadal your bike p*ssies.
  • + 0
 Should have said,"Just ride ride your bike (after you charge it of course)".
  • + 3
 i think its cool but i dont want it on my bike and i dont see it taking off. mabye in the dentist ebike market. the technology is cool tho
  • + 1
 Article starts off telling me I'm too stupid to know how I like my suspension, then attempts to sell me a product that's over the price of an entire bike that is, in literally no way, needed to ride my bike. You then follow this up by letting me know a system made to make my suspension more efficient was designed for longer travel bikes, not XC whippets. You guys aren't even trying to market this shit intelligently anymore, you're bullying customers into impulse buys.
  • + 1
 f^ck anything with a battery on a bike

also, being a software developer, i know that using timeouts is a very bad practice. events should be used instead, but they will need much more complicated system for that (which we will see for sure in future)

and now they want you to pay for this awkward system for them to have money for future development
of course it's your choice whether to buy it or not
  • + 2
 "... but my favorite aspect of Live Valve is never having to pause at the top of a climb to check if my suspension is open."

You mean just like I do currently with my Enduro?
  • + 1
 I don't get the pricing. $3500 as a stand alone or if it goes on your bike as standard about an extra $2000. So it's $2000 for some sensors and the brain assuming the non live valve bike still comes eith a girl and shock. That strikes me as a lot of cash, I think I will stick to rockshox gripshift lockout leaver
  • + 1
 Inevitable march of progress. These systems debuted in the 90s from Williams F1. It was such a game changer that it was made illegal. The technology has subsequently trickled down to cars and more recently, motorbikes and bicycles. Might not be for everyone, and certainly won't be for me (and my wallet). But I'm glad to see smart people working on innovative solutions.
  • + 1
 I spend a lot of timing thinking about my bike, but never do I wish my suspension could be more complex. I appreciate the proposed benefits, not hating, just don't gravitate to this kind of innovation at all and am surprised there is a market for this. I like simplicity in my biking, as much as I can get from a modern full suspension bike that is, haha.
  • + 1
 This will be nice once the bikes are designed around it completely. No need to balance anti squat vs pedal kickback. Just minimize pedal kickback and use live valve. For my bikes now I prefer climbing with the shock open. But if my suspension kinematics were those of a DH bike (which I would like) then I’d like some more LCS when on the gas.

Cool new stuff.
  • + 1
 Anything like this is going to elicit a lot of hate and skepticism. Frankly I’m skeptical about even skeptical or bad reviews because many reviewers are going to bring a ton of baggage to this and even feel they have to be somewhat skeptical to please all of the skeptics/haters among their readers. If it’s really good and a useful contribution it’s going to win out in the end as the cost comes down.
  • + 1
 3000 dlls for some electronics, a valve and a pair of accelerometers? C'mon Fox, there's no f*cking way the whole system costs more than two hundred bucks to manufacture. I know you have some R&D costs to cover but this is ridiculous.
  • + 3
 I'm glad it's too expensive to consider. If it was any lower I'd probably be trying to figure out which of my wife's rings I'd be trying to pawn.
  • + 1
 Oh sweet I was just thinking 8 G's for my bike isn't enough I want to spend more like 12 or 15G's???????? I mean I'm all for technology but bikes are already priced through the roof, where do we draw the line???
  • + 1
 Just curious, were there any undesired caracteristic while jumping or was it predictable? I wonder if it could lock up detecting an ascent while taking a big long booter like crabapple hits or things like that?
  • + 3
 And yall were bitching about a $3800 yeti frame yesterday....

Fox: “hold my beer....”
  • + 1
 I so don’t care.

Someday the computer will read the trail around the bike for context, just make suspension perfect without ‘valving’, or guessing intent by the angle of the trail.
  • + 1
 Soooo.... $3k, then when they find out that the servo controllers don't work as well as they should, for a mere $1k you can upgrade to the boost valve version! Thanks Fox, but I'm all out of lube.
  • + 2
 Yeah, hard pass. Seems like a kludge rather than an actual intelligent solution--flipping the climb switch on/off at a fast rate is hardly an 'intelligent' suspension.
  • + 0
 I can "Just ride my bike" perfectly fine without this. In fact, I can prolly ride better because I spend most of my time on my HT! LoL

I can see the benefits for pro athletes/racers, but for 99% of people this is completely unnecessary. I wonder how long before I see 150mm ++ travel bikes with this suspension on my local XC loop? I've already spotted a few riders will full face brain buckets LoL
  • + 2
 Getting hard to keep up with all the changes these days, bikes a few years old are getting outdated and difficult to sell while the new stuff is getting crazy expensive.
  • + 4
 Is this something that customers actually want?
Genuine question
  • + 4
 Customers that earn enough and dont frequent the turd that is the PB comments section, probably.
  • + 2
 @justanotherusername: but we'll never know, since they don't read this, eh?

@IllestT: customers will want whatever they're told to want.
  • + 1
 I'd like to see more DBCoil IL like shocks for trailbikes...
  • + 1
 @shinook: but not made of glass.
  • + 2
 Solution for a problem that doesn’t exist.

Does motocross, which is way more advanced in suspension technology use electronically controlled dampers? Thought not.

JP
  • + 1
 I think you lack the fundamental understanding of a dynamics involved in a mass spring damper system. If mtb was the same as F1 or Mx we would have settled the performance and kinematics issue a long time ago
  • + 1
 @Loamhuck: I think you lack the fundamental understanding of how not to be patronising (see what I did there?)

Remind me what happened to all of those wacky suspension ideas that differed greatly from current mx suspension - leading link forks, URTs, etc. How did they work out? Now tell me that current suspension tech on mountain bikes doesn’t owe a massive debt to mx suspension.
  • + 3
 bike companies can get away with bad suspension designs with Live valve mounted
  • + 2
 Lame prototype. It should have programmed in all the trails in US with GPS based topography so nobody should have to do anything but "pedal" his e-bike.
  • + 2
 My math indicates that after 463 doctors 666 dentists and one former president buy this tech. I will only need to wait 5 years to afford it second hand.
  • + 2
 I think it's a cool idea. Lots of wires and junk strapped to the bike, and expensive. But in a few years this will probably be normal, sleeker, and cheaper.
  • + 3
 So you can get a UTV with live valve for $20k. Glad to see bikes getting into the mid-high teen's.
  • + 2
 As always a brilliant innovation but all those wires. The next round of bikes will come with conduits in the down tubes and a fuse box! Fox - one word - Wireless!!!!!!!!
  • + 0
 Immediately recognizing every feature and section of trail that you were riding and testing this equipment on, I cannot thank you enough for staying in the main corridor (1) and utilizing pictures to accompany your article that reflect this (2). It is refreshing and responsible and I genuinely appreciate your professionalism and hope that others follow suit.
  • + 4
 Cool, does it post to IG for me too?
  • + 2
 A large part of me wants to hate this, but another part really wants this to work and be retrofittable to my bike, and if it is, well, I'm in.
  • + 4
 Fake review! Not buying into any of RC!
  • - 1
 Wow this seems ridiculous!!!

so whats next?

1)shark skin frame texture for greater aerodynamics?
2)wheels that change shape according to the bumps(telescopic spokes)?
3)terrain following radar (as mentioned in previous comment)?
4)suspension service indication light?
5)dildo grips?
6)metal frame protection bars for carbon frames?
7)bike Tamagotchi (bikes have emotions/feelings too)
Cool QR scan code on each component for home set up and service guides.
9)instant "radness" sensor & computer (you have to feel great/the best or else you wouldn't ride right?)
10)hire purchase schemes with direct brands...well they're getting damn expensive.

I started riding over 20 years ago and the ratio of what you get/what you pay is radically changing.
  • + 1
 What happens if your halfway through a rock garden with your bike pinging to f*ck and you realise you haven't switched it on ?
  • + 1
 Unless you ride through rock gardens with your LSC closed it shouldn't make much of a difference since it defaults to open.
  • + 1
 @ak-77: problem i used to have was having everything locked out for the pedal from the carpark, and not remembering to unlock it as im starting the trail, if im shelling out thousands for a piece of tech like this i expect at least a text/email to my shock overiding my stupidity ,mind you i dont do much pedally riding anymore Smile
  • + 3
 Will it charge my vape pen and bluetooth speaker mid-ride though?
  • + 3
 Benefit/cost ratio is down the toilet
  • + 3
 More shit to bolt on your bike and cost insane money when it messes up
  • + 2
 Glad to see RC's thumbs up on this. But $3250 USD to basically replace my fingers? No thanks.
  • + 1
 No, to give you an extra arm and hand thats always on your fork dials
  • + 1
 I don't even notice the benefits of flipping the propedal lever on my 160mm Norco range on pavement pedals... Cool none the less, but essentially worthless.
  • + 3
 What about Lapierre EI Shock ?
  • + 1
 Knew it was a shame. I mean what links/improvements between both system
  • + 2
 How is this different to the lapierre rockshox ei system from 10 years ago?
  • + 1
 Yay, I can upgrade from my K2 smart shock finally! Which is good, was feeling guilty about going through all those 9v batteries and tossing them in the trash!
  • + 2
 Hey RC

Could bikes now be designed like every MX bike with a single low, aft pivot & be good to pedal?
  • + 1
 So for 2-3 thousand dollars, i can have a computer adjust just my low-speed compression. It doesn't sound like the wonder system that was promised.
  • + 1
 Late to the party but
READBETWEENTHELINES hashtag byotch
Would I spend 2-3 k for this? No.
Would I write a glowing review so I can continue to ride this? Yes.
  • + 2
 They couldn't assemble my sc 32 or perf. elite 34 correctly so why should I trust them with this?
  • + 2
 Coming from spinning wrenches on cars... you're going to love servicing sensor, and electronics on your bike... just love it
  • + 1
 If they called it “live wire”, they could have used the Motley Crue song in the introduction video.
  • + 1
 That's cool.

But when can I get hub dynamo powered magnetorheological dampers?
  • + 1
 $3k for an electronic lock out!! Shits crazy! No suspension performance, shits crazy! $3k $3k
  • + 1
 Nice stuff dude, now you don't need to understand how suspension are working.
  • + 1
 this is super cool. in 5-7 years us plebs can buy the 1st gen to slap on our then way old and out dated geo bikes.
  • + 1
 Electric bicycles, electric shifting, electric shock control, we might as well hand over humanity to the robots now
  • + 1
 It’s a first step towards something cool. I’m not interested in a system that is an on/off switch.
  • + 2
 Looks like a great shock for a downhill tandem!
  • + 1
 Wait, how does this work aftermarket? Don't there have to be routing and mounting holes for the sensor on the chainstay?
  • + 2
 will only be able to be implemented aftermarket on a frame that is live valve compatible. unless you want to bodge it together on a non-live valve ready bike
  • + 1
 Bleh. RC, this. RC that.

I won't buy it unless it's reviewed and recommended by RCT3.

No "OEM" reviewer for me...
  • + 2
 2013 Lapierre Ei shock is that you ?
  • + 1
 Wouldn’t improving their airsprings to not require the biggest volume spacer available be better R&D money spent?
  • + 1
 How many years has it been since K2 came out with the smart shock? It's about time.
  • + 1
 Now thats suspension worth spending money on....... but I cant afford that hahahaha!
  • + 1
 Please wait while your system is being updated... Do not power off your bicycle.
  • + 2
 Hey RC

Is it now possible for MX style low aft pivots for MTB?
  • + 1
 Just gimme speed sensitive mechanical damping that works, no need for electronics.
  • + 1
 if this is used in racing, could it be considered cheating or na? Just an honest question.
  • + 1
 TANTRUM does this and possibly more, without the electronics, and without the price premium.
  • + 1
 @RichardCunningham

Let's have a shootout!

Trek Re:Activ Thru-Shaft .VS. Specialized Brain .VS. Fox Live Valve.
  • + 2
 $3,000+ DOLLARS?! Are you kidding me?!
  • + 1
 As a bike mechanic, the picture of all that internal routing gives me the heebie jeebies... yeeeesh. Fuck that.
  • + 3
 #justgorideyourbike
  • + 2
 What a mess. Expensive mess.
  • + 2
 Looks expensive.

And I can't believe my bike supports it! Big Grin Big Grin
  • + 1
 Soon you enter a bike shop and it's like cars, bikes connected to computers to diagnose failures and so on LOL!!!
  • + 1
 Happy to see that!!! Honestly guys 3000 bucks for that? Thought 2000 are enough for carbon rims
  • + 2
 What EWS Pros have been using it?
  • + 1
 So my question is will this be legal for riders on the EWS or XC circuit next season?
  • + 1
 Already in use
  • + 1
 Can't wait to ride an autonomous bike on a Word Cup DH track and beat all the Pros Wink
  • + 1
 Adding another 0.5kg on my bike? Sure its not problem because im $3k lighter :-D
  • + 2
 I can see in the future we will be riding hologram bikes
  • + 1
 Would I pay 2-3 k for this? NO.
would I write a glowing review so I could continue to ride this? YES.
#readbetweenthelines
  • + 2
 That's shockingly expensive...
  • + 1
 This review gave me the urge to ride my fully rigid 29er,while giving 0 f#ks about electronics on bicycles.
  • + 1
 I'd like to try it. If it works well then I'd want it.
  • + 1
 Take my money. Just take it.
  • + 1
 So it locks and unlocks your suspension for $3000? Pass...
  • + 1
 the next model will have a fingerprint scanner...LOL
  • + 1
 Tantrum missing link anyone
  • + 1
 We are headed here... youtu.be/MXW0bx_Ooq4
  • + 1
 I'd take the rear half for an eighth of the price, thank you.
  • + 0
 FINALLY! A way to add more cables, switches and levers to a Scott bike. Smile
  • + 1
 would rather have higher quality internals.
  • + 1
 Lol, the Pinkbike kids without jobs are going to tear this to pieces...
  • + 1
 Will this make my bike more fun to ride? ????
  • + 1
 @pingryj: No, but you will be as fast as your favourite pro!
  • + 1
 Just more shit to go wrong and ruin a well earned day of riding.
  • - 3
 This is NOT expensive, it say in article "Complete Live Valve Aftermarket system includes fork, shock, and controller with wiring and sensors."

For 3000$ you get fork+shock+live valve, thats not expensive, if you buy top of the line fox36+fox dpx alone this is aprox. 2500$. So Live Valve is 500$, which is not that expensive for latest and greatest tech.

Its impossible to build 10K$ bikes with this, please release some gold or diamond version of Live Valve!
  • + 1
 Ah, electric suspension. Just what my mountain bike is missing out on.
  • + 1
 2K extra to put this on lmao what a joke lol
  • + 1
 Just as I predicted, ELECTRONICS!
  • + 1
 Fox and Yeti should MAKE LIKE A TREE AND GET OUTTA HERE.
  • + 1
 All that is needed now is Fox Live Transfer dropper post.
  • + 1
 We need satelites involved
  • + 1
 Dentists of the world are getting excited !
  • + 1
 I know dentists who can't afford this thing
  • + 1
 This is cool. Thanks @foxfactory for pushing the boundaries of technology.
  • + 1
 “Dammit I forgot to charge my suspension again!”
  • + 1
 Analog vs. digital. Age-old dilemma.
  • + 2
 This is sick!
  • + 4
 like whooping cough?
  • + 1
 I can recognize the future when I see it !
  • + 1
 We would see bike with AI one day.
  • + 1
 I'm not interested in this even 1%
  • + 1
 just another gimmick so they can add thousands to your bike!!
  • + 1
 Fuck more cables!
  • + 1
 Reeeetaaaawwwdit.
  • - 1
 I think given the amount of tech that goes in to modern bikes a computer shouldn't raise an eyebrow
  • + 3
 We're jumping realms, all the tech on a conventional mountain bike is mechanical tech. This is bringing in the dark magicks of James Clerk Maxwell.
  • + 1
 Yeah, I think computer tech will be standard on bikes within the next ten years. A system like this Fox one will smaller, battery will last a lot longer, and all the bugs will be sorted.
  • - 1
 Anther crutch to add weight and expense to your ride. I'll get one of these and a dropper post for my E bike!
  • + 1
 GAME CHANGER!!!
  • + 0
 I'll stick to my SPV...
  • - 1
 If only I were a dentist...
  • + 4
 Can we change this dentist bit to banker or hedge fund manager or lobbiest? I ride with several dentists and find them to be quite friendly,frugal, hard working and strong AF.
  • + 2
 @MonsterTruck: I think the idea behind "dentist" is that they're rich... Nothing to do with their friendliness or whatever.
  • + 1
 @Uuno: Must be a US thing - no richer than any other professional person elsewhere. People with most money near me are the "pay me in cash only" builders.
  • + 1
 @Karve: Dentist have money AND lots of free time. Hedge fund managers have none.

Is there a euro analog to that?
  • + 2
 I get the thing about dentists being rich, they still need to work for a living. They are far from being RICH. So when a frame costs $3800 and the suspension upgrade is $3000 then you need to look past the working class rich to where the real money is. Mountain biking is not quite yachting or Polo, but I feel that it is trying to be! @Uuno:
  • + 0
 I'm not a dentist and I still afford all this crap.
  • + 0
 ha ha ha ha ha ha
  • + 0
 I love this comment. Like a troll in the forest logged in to troll online and all it could do is laugh it's ass off
  • - 1
 Just buy an Ebike!
  • + 2
 since that makes sense.
  • - 1
 Ha !!!!!!
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