Pinkbike Poll: How Do You Feel About eMTBs Today?
We're seeing more and more e-bikes being released, and they're starting to get past that awkward "What the hell are they?" phase. They're clearly still a contentious issue, but I'm wondering if they're slowly starting to gain acceptance. Clearly, Pinkbike commenters are universally reasonable, rational people with thoroughly thought-through opinions, but perhaps a few of you have softened your stance or changed your mind in the last few years.
We've turned of the eMTB filter for this one in order to get slightly less biased results. If you weren't even aware there was a filter, you can read the details here. Also, consider the e-bikes referenced in this poll to be pedal powered, Class 1 models, not ones that have a throttle and don't require any pedaling.
Bonus section: how do you feel about 29ers these days?
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If i was to get an ebike, i would not want to fart around with 1 horsepower, i want 100.
California will ban gas dirt bikes and everyone else will follow. It is coming. Why cant ebikes take over that space? Why do they need to be with Mt Bikes?
Can you forsee growing problems bringing innevitable enforcement and regulation for all MTB's due to E'bikes?
Ebikes need to be a distinct category from motos because there are LOTS of trails where dirt bikes aren't allowed (and never will be) but where ebikes would be fine.
Lay off the BC Bud dude.
Possibly most ebikers use the right category now (though my garmin watch doesn't give me the option I expect there's a way round) but I only look at the normal ride leader boards where clearly top 10 climbs are full of ebikes, not so clear on descents, but when I spoke to an ebiker crawling up the hill unusually slowly he said he saved his battery for downhill as it really made a difference powering out of corners
...Now before you downvote, just know I hold nothing against those of you who love pedaling uphill, more power to you... But that is not me.
Savage
This is a *great point*, and I think bears exploring further as a distinction between modes of two wheeled trail enjoyment...
In the words of the late great Mitch Hedberg...
“I like an escalator. An escalator can never break, it can only become stairs...
....
Sorry for the inconvenience of still being able to get up there.”
If a dirt bike runs out of gas, it’s trail furniture.
If an emtb runs out of juice, or you decide to turn it off, it’s just a bike...
"...Now before you downvote, just know I hold nothing against those of you who love pedaling uphill, more power to you... But that is not me."
You mean more power to yourself not us (Pun intended)!
I think what’s everyone is trying to figure out is ....
Is it more
Mtb.....emtb........................................dirt bike
Or
Mtb.......................................emtb.....dirt bike
No way is it the latter. My emtb and mtb serve as backup parts inventory for one another...
Because the 30k for view of trail users...
Horse..runner..hiker..mtb..emtb..dirt bike..ohv..jeep
THere’s barely a lick of difference.
Many ebikes for sale brag about this. One major ebike seller has been fined for it. And when I am going up mt hwy to the parking lot in my van at 60 km there are ebikes going up at the same speed on there way to fromme.
Like when full sus became prevalent and it brought more people into the sport and we got more access and more trails, the same will happen, and is happening, and we'll get more riders, more access and more trails. You only out weigh the sierra club anticycling mantra with more numbers. The future number incase is undoubtedly tied to E. You can continue flexing in the corner and spreading bs if you want. E is here to stay and grow. Exponentially more than trad mtb
My opinion is the same as it's always been: they're fun, and they're different than mountain bikes. And that difference makes managing them complicated. I still ride my mountain bike(s) way more often than any ebike.
That all seems pretty straightforward, but you're awfully worked up about it.
An e cargo hardly qualifies you to be any kind of expert on the subject, let alone riding your wifes emtb "sometimes" which you expanded upon a while ago as only being a few times because you didnt get a work out(cough/BS/cough).
The fact of the matter is that in 45 days of riding mine this year ive experienced zero rudeness. Im still generally the one stopping and letting people pass. Same with other emtbers i ride with . Other trail users have been extremely friendly this year. The overwhelming % of trail users , in a survey, believe theyre fine to be on our trails. Ive not heard of one issue. New riders are getting out. The core user is getting emtb's. The cycling association is selling more memberships, im clearing more deadfall as well as others i imagine, bike shops are selling and fixing more, the cycling community carries more clout. Im blown away how much peoples attitudes have changed now that they see theyre no big deal. Its just always been pleasant on the trails this year. They are now allowed on all our trails, same as rossland and n van and many other locales because the powers that be saw no problem. Youre stuck in youre crafted ideology bro. Trying to reason the narrative youve created. Cant stand down brah. Man up bruh!! I have more days on both a mtb and emtb than you by a long shot and that gives me more insight. Youre posturing is merely that, posturing. Like the politics we've all been recently subjected to, its hard to climb off that pedestal it seems
All I said is that they're different than mountain bikes. That is objectively true. One has a motor, the other doesn't. As I said previously, that's not a good thing or a bad thing - it's just a difference.
I didn't say anything about rudeness, or what trails they should be allowed on, or how I'm an expert at ebikes, or any of that other crap you're blathering on about.
And saying that ebikes could replace dirt bikes in dirt bike riding areas, come on. Just... no.
“There’s barely a lick of difference” in the view of other trail users is exactly the problem. I’ve talked to eMTB riders who are also bike shop employees selling the things, and they tell me how they can jump features on the trail while climbing. If you think that other trail users will be ok with someone doing that, compared to the slow and obvious struggle that non-assisted folks are enduring while climbing, then you are clueless. It’s hard enough maintaining a good working relationship with other user types as it is.
EMTBs don't even have enough gearing to do this speed on a flat road, much less up hill.
Stop talking out of your ass.
"ebikes are fun."
"I own 2 ebikes."
You:
"Quit slagging on ebikes."
Your e-insecurities are getting the best of you.
In 10, 15, 20 years, if you can step back from tour narrative, youll be able to look back at mtb in general and see that the two 5ish year segments in mtb that brought more people to the sport, brought more trails and access, and improved technology the most will be full suspension and emtb/full stop
The secret is to be able yo get people on a mtb for 15-20 days. At that point they have some trail skills, dome flow, and are feeding on their endorphins/runners high. Then theyll continue with the sport.
Before full sus the casual rider wouldnt stick with the sport, with no suspension, long low rise stems, seat jacked, shit brakes shittier tires. They just got eorked on any technical section. Bmxers just figured mtb was gronola crunching hippy dippies lost in the woods. Enter full sus and less keen riders could ride a lot more trails comfortably. Full sus made it easier for the occasional rider to get that 15-20 rides in and the sport became their "thing". Bmxers saw full sus and only then dropped their bmx's. In 3 or 4 years our 100mm travel bikes now ranged up to 200 with short stems, riser bars, discs, coils, good tires. All in 3 or 4 years. Trails were getting built bigtime.
The same thing is happening with emtb. Is making it easier to get that new or casual rider to 15-20 days in and its becoming "their" sport and its extending the cycling years of the aged. Its all mountain biking. The same pursuit, just a refined tool to make the sport grow and be more inclusive. Bike companies want to grow their market share but they also want to bring new riders in. The bmx apapters of the past are now the moto X riders that are happy not to load their trucks and drive a fair distance to minimal trails. They can just hop on a bike and ride from their house. People that would never try cycling and would stand no chance pf getting to tgat magical 15-20 ride days are now doing that.
It was hard to get my ski buddies up to day 15-20 before full suspension. If their bike broke anywhere before that it was no chance. So many people dabbled and left the sport back then
The anti eeb whiners today where the newbs and xc riders back when full sus was expanding the sport. Mountain bikers worse enemy then and now are other mountain bikers trying to tell people how and what they should be doing with their bike only because its not what they do on a bike. The newbs and xc ridefs back in the full sus daze said we shouldnt be riding those trails, those bikes were too fast and people were going to get run over. Meanwhile they were still riding trails we built just that they were trails ghey weee comfortable with. We still just called ourselves montain bikers. We pedalled up as many hills or more, yet they were willing to throw us under the bus and differentiate themselves to save the trails they liked or were able to ride.
Same thing is happening now with this anti emtb lobby by fellow mountain bikers, particularly but not limited to the US. Instead of using the additional clout that additional riders brings to open access youre will to regulate and throw your fellow mountain bikers under the bus for the sierra club to run over. Youve been handed the golden key and your egos won't let you use it for the good of all mtbers.
Emtb has brought numerous new companies into the fold. Its going to bring a massive increase in technology which will bring more riders.i have no doubt emtb will finally get rid of the derailleur and chain as we know it. Tire/rim tech will see a much needed refining, and the new crop of riders theyll bring will have the semenuks and brunis of the future. Many riders that upped the game only were able to do it because full sus brought out more riders
All the whiners of the past are probably riding 150-180 travel bikes and ripping down black diamond trails. All the things they railed against then.
Its extra disgusting knowing you actually had a 40+ lb bike with a granny ring, and with your experience, should be able to see the backlash similarities between the full sus years and the current emtb years
They must have been some pretty accurate Chinese knock offs to fool me into thinking they were actually name brand endurbro ebikes huh. Sorry i have been corrected. You must be right and it is not easy to fool the speed sensors and boost the power.
And just to clarify i said 60 km not 60 mph(although there was a emtbike on CL for sale claiming it can do this last week)
That agenda is usually because they like to flex and tell everyone how no hill is too big for them to climb and they dont need no stinkin emtb
Or they have a tiny pen and someone on an emtb was going faster up a hill than they could
Which is it tough guy?
Ill wait, mom is making me my breakfast
YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!
Its true. Whats the difference between they should be treated differently and regulating them? Sounds like anorher cop out.
Emtb is just another tool more effectively getting people out on bikes. Thats what bike advancement does, whether its full sus, 1 x 12, or dropper posts or emtb's. Its mountain biking bro
Look at the company you keep. Youre surrounded by ridiculous comments, fabwizaed for example. The kid isnt very bright. Everything needs to be spelled out for the morans
And why should anyone listen to your tutorial on internet arguing when you been repeatedly proven wrong and using misrepresentations to back your point?
You old timey slow bikers lose on all fronts, resistance is futile and soon non e bikes will only be viewed as potential scrap metal for recycling, or as donations to third world countries where they can't afford them, like old American clothing rejected by Goodwill.
You wouldn't want to ride with me. I have 3 batteries and would be doing 2-3 turbo mode laps for every 1 slow bike lap you do, and riding all day. Pedaling 15k in one day on a double crown bike? You taking the lift all day, lazy park rat style? Tell me about your ride.
"I don't have anything against escalators......I just don't call them stairs"
Firstly, Escalators run continuously, until switched off.
Secondly, there is a difference in the Classes of E Bike which square-heads cannot seem to comprehend.
Class 1 is E Assist upto 20 mph. The power your legs are putting out is multiplied, no throttle. Depending on motor system, Eco feels much like a traditional bike often only removing the additional weight of the bike. Trail is torque sensitive, adding more assist the harder you pedal. Boost is similar to Trail, however is more cadence based than torque based. All modes = No pedal, no go.
Class 2 is the E bike we should ALL have an issue with, and IMO shouldn't be sold with pedals. It is by definition a "motor cycle" and falls into the same category as scooters. Max speed 20 mph and have a throttle. AFAIK no major bike manufacturer who is serious into mountainbikes has produced a Class 2 bike. These are the bikes you see RIPPING down the sidewalk, or road, no pedal input. The typically have a motor in the rear wheel, some are now 2 wheel drive, and I know first hand the offshore bikes will even do a burnout.
Using your analogy, only a Class 2 is similar to an escalator - running until switched off. This class of bike NEEDS governing, and shouldn't be sold with pedals and cranks. The bikes PB is referring to are Class 1.
First hand experience: Wife and I own Norco Range VLTs, and Norco Shores. Similar bikes, right down to travel, geo and tires, one offers Class 1 assistance. We went for a VLT ride yesterday, bouncing between Eco and Trail. We were passed on the climb twice by XC guys. We held our own against the Enduro guys. After the descent - we ripped back down on the Enduro guys tail, passing the XC guys. Joking with them at the bottom ha-ha we had our snacks, they went home gassed and we went for another lap. The end of lap 2 is when we felt fatigued. No throttle, no cheating, we still rode, our power was just amplified. If we took the Shores, it would have been a 1 lap day. The difference is more ride time, not necessarily faster.
Telling my wife about this online squabble - her response: "I wish everyone would just shut up and ride their damn bikes". For once I don't disagree with her. Lol
Downvote away; keyboard warriors, just had to lay it out plainly.
Don’t need luck. I’ve ridden many trails with the motor off, and also with my toddler on the Mac-ride.
The added weight stability and traction make it a lot safer to ride with her on it, especially in the shoulder seasons when I may encounter some frosty surface conditions.
It’s not bad at all.
Maybe it’s just where I ride, but I’ve met way bigger jerks on regular bikes, and most ebike riders I encounter are just out for some laps... they’re not trying to poach pedal-only trails on their electric motos...
I think the guy in the road helmet, full Lycra, and 1.9” tires is the bigger hazard. He’s gunning up hill as fast as he can with a sense of entitlement because he’s ‘earning it’ and he’s not slowing down for anyone... good luck to any dogs and kids he may come up on!
I ride road, cx, mtb, emtb, and moto.
One of those things is not like the other.
for example 3x9 gear, 2x10, etc. each wheel size, tire width etc.
and furthermore we need separate trails for each of those kinds.
wait, what?
"a motor vehicle similar to a bicycle but usually larger and heavier"
I’d love to see the ‘motorcycle’ that’s not not *slightly* larger or heavier than a bicycle...
Even a motoped weighs 125 before gas and oil, and that’s a gas engine grafted on to a beefed up mtb, using some mtb components.
Still a world away from a FF emtb
I own and ride an emtb and I can tell you that even on full boost, I'm not anywhere near as fast on the climbs on my local trails. The power cutout will stop you going anywhere near KoM, unless your local riders are terrible. Eg, my PR on a climb is 1:25, that the KoM is 39 seconds. You just can't get max enough power out to match really fit and fast riders. Of course, the benefit is the climbs don't smash you so you can rider further and faster, but so long as people aren't modding them, then pedal assist ebikes are fine.
As for the garmin, I set my Strava gear up as an ebike and my Garmin records an mtb ride and Strava applies as a ebike no worries.
We went on an extended ride last night, which involved road and trail riding. You're 200% right, with assistance cutting out at 30 km/h, we were nowhere near KOM, anywhere we rode. Pretty much as soon as the trail points down, if it's flowy - it's not providing assistance anymore either.
The Shimano system is really good at making you earn it in Trail mode - which we ride in 90% of the time. We connected to the Bluetooth and turned down assistance in Boost mode when we first got them, it was too unnatural feeling.. but we mostly reserve it for steep road / paved - commuting over distance, or those grunty ass climbs which you'd normally push up on a regular bike.
The Shimano system just takes the "suck" out of climbing on a 180mm travel bike on 2.6 DD Maxxgrips.
Joking aside, one day when they don't look so damn hideous and weigh a ton lighter maybe be cool to own a big bike version to session certain trails that are best shuttling. Although until that happens ill stick to fitness and lighter bike. Rock ON!
After 28 years I still like the challenge of this sport, no one forced me so I can't really say "oh those damn climbs", it's a part of this thing.
Somehow I think if Strava didn't exist most of you wouldn't have a problem with ebikes.
Somehow I think if Strava didn't exist most of you wouldn't have a problem with ebikes.
To that end, please support your local trail building community with time or money so we can all continue to enjoy the trails.
But still unsure about this knee-jerk reaction to using an e-bike. I haven't seen any dilution of the sport, and will report back if I do. Thus far I only see them passing me going up hills.
They want it now without any hussle.
Uphill is fun because its a challenge and makes a good workout.
I cant cope with this weak E-Bike mindset
So yeah, screw them
The one who wanted to be funny fell over his bike 10seconds later on the fireroad.. lmao
I remember when there was outrage at these new seatposts that cos £300 that went up and down and weren't even as light as standard ones that cost a tenth of that
Similar to how 29ers were when they started. They both went through a weight weenie phase too, with weight weenie options driving prices up to ridiculous levels.
The way I see it, ebikes enable people who otherwise cannot ride how they want to - ride how they want to.
I also dont really have a problem with otherwise physically capable people riding them, so long as they respect the legal and environmental limits imposed on them.
So your shuttling idea is great, but I feel there are a lot of acceptable applications for ebikes that are much broader.
I also turn my usual 15-20km rides in 40km rides now, and self-shuttle or explore more on multi use trails where allowed. I'm conscious to be courteous and respectful for all cyclists reputation, as I always have been. I see more poor behaviour from analog bikers than e-riders these days especially towards hikers and pedestrians, but thats a stats game by ratio so not a fair analysis. But the fact remains an asshat is an asshat no matter what they're sitting on.
It would give a viable option for those with true physical disabilities to still access trails while not having someone being excessively critical after they see/recognize the disability plaque.
I know I'm having to deal with a medical issue that may severely limit how much I can ride (actually pedaling is the real issue). If I opt to get/ride an ebike, I would want some way to let others know that it isn't my preference to be riding an ebike. On the contrary, I'd kill to have the disability gone and would happily vow that I wouldn't ride an ebike on a trail in exchange.
I'm sure I'm not alone in that thought for those who've developed disabilities that limit them in their activities they enjoy.
A lot of areas do this, have a accessibility paper or license or sticker or something showing that you’ve registered your e-bike or e-cart or whatever for disability and are allowed on all the local trails where ebikes are banned
Stationary bike is the standard prescribed rehab post op. My buddy had hip surgery, same deal.
Of course I took the MTB out for some mellow dirt riding asap
Nobody anywhere has ever been prescribed e-bike riding...
......and the bike was pretty freaking awesome by the way.
I really don't think many opposed to the idea of them is going to change their mind after riding one. More like if someone really wanted one beforehand they'll overlook the shortcomings.
Got to love marketing.
My bad, don't want to spoil the narrative and advertising $...
Using it to commute is even greener.
#GreenMachine
You imply that because both faced resistance from their community upon their introduction, that they are the same problem - ie one of overcoming inbuilt conservatism. This can raise doubts in Mtb riders’ minds because at heart we’re a progressive bunch who don’t think of themselves as conservative
You do thus because you face great pressure from your advertisers to change hearts and minds on e-mtbs. It is transparently the case.
However attempting to hoodwink your readers with shitty manipulative arguments posing as questionnaires such as this inevitably raises hackles. So why do it?
Let’s try a reductio ad absurdum :
A) bigger wheels are the way forward. Therefore in the future Mtb wheels will become progressively larger, as they confer mechanical advantage.
We know that not to be the case, as this would create more problems than it solves.
B) electric assisted motors and batteries on emtbs will become lighter, more efficient and cheaper.
These Eventually become so light, efficient and ubiquitous that every Mtb might as well have them. The distinction between electric dirt bikes and e-mtbs becomes only one of one having pedals and cranks, the other not.
A is absurd. B is foreseeable. They are not the same thing. Conclusion: larger wheeled mtbs are still mtbs. putting a motor in mountain bikes changes them into something else.
Knock it off
Remember when non-mtb people used to look at your DH bike and say "where's the motor"? Now you can sheepishly point down between your legs, while I will keep saying "you're talking to it". Human power will always be cooler than batteries.
And we need to do something about people doing five or even six laps a day. One lap maximum. Enforced with trail cams. People are out there ruining trails by riding them too much.
Ride less! For the sake of the trails, ride less!
A typical E MTB will have a 504wh battery and Shimano E8000 crank drive motor (250 watts).
Many of the chinese throttled E bikes will have a 1000wh battery, and a 1000 watt hub drive motor which is down rated to 500 watts for legal reasons, but can be uprated to 1000 easily by the selling shop.
The difference is the china bikes have 80-100% of their torque available at 1 RPM, throttle twist. I've seen some do burnouts against concrete walls, smokeshows if you will. Whereas the E MTB has a torque sensor, and will only multiply your human input at the crank, once the crank begins to rotate, feeling very natural as a bike in its own right.
This immediately seperates them into motorcycle with pedals, vs bicycle with assist. This is the root issue which needs to be addressed, and IMO throttled bikes should require licensing such as a moped - and then disallowed from parks.
This is all speaking from my own ownership of a Norco E MTB, Norco manual MTB - and having done burnouts on a buddy's chinabike.
The assistance of a 250W motor and 504WH battery is enough to boost my natural input, but not enough to drive on its own.
Class 1 and Class 2 are VERY different animals.... great question though - I hit ya with an upvote.
anything else and it just seems like you're a cheater. to me they defeat why people started biking in the first place. i want to EARN that downhill, i want the exercise even if climbing sucks and i hate it, it's a part of biking and the downhill is more appreciated. "but i work just as hard on my ebike" no you don't - you're just going farther for longer.. and i haven't even touched on the fact they are a trail builders worst nightmare. if you ride a trail more times with an ebike than you would have on a bike, you are doing more damage to said trail. simple as that.
But now that is an expensive trail tool.
As far as maintenance, Class 1's do more laps for sure which causes more wear, but it's normal bicycle wear and tear. The real problem is that along with the class 1's the class 2's show up. Sur Rons and such will absolutely destroy a seasons worth of back breaking work with one day of roosting.
Trails get worked every time you ride them, but usually the physical effort it takes to get to the top of them is the limiting factor that keeps ppl from abusing the trail and riding it so much that they destroy it. With e-bikes you have a way to cheat the system, you could ride laps all day long without getting nearly as tired from the climb, thereby doing more damage to the trail than someone who has to put the effort in to get to the top and can only do one or two laps.
On a grander scale, you sort of have the same problem with access and trail conflicts. In the past, the physical effort required to ride limits how long you can be out there & how many days in a row you can ride (for normal humans), but with ebikes you can be out there every day as long as you can keep your batteries charged. People who could maybe do a 10 mile ride can now do 30, and people who maybe wouldn't ride at all because they don't like putting in the effort are now able to be out there. That just increases the number of people on the trail at any given time, and the potential for trail conflicts with hikers.
I don't think e-bikes are intrinsically bad, and I do appreciate the access they can give people with physical limitations, but they have the potential to greatly exacerbate the problems we already have. I'm sure they're fun, and I wouldn't mind having one, but if I saw someone riding one on a loamer I built, I would tell them to get lost.
With greater excitement and larger total ridership - trail wear will be accelerated regardless of who is riding the trails. The magic card here is not to disallow or discourage Ebikers from riding - it would be to build a better club with stronger membership fees and trail fees - putting the proceeds towards trail maintenance and education or clinics for new riders.
Its the rider who does the damage either through lack of skill or bike setup - not the bike itself.
I think e-bikes should continue to be regulated separately from mountain bikes, but ultimately it is a land manager issue to regulate the access and maintenance of trails. Unfortunately, these organizations are slow to respond to trends that are developing as quickly as e-bikes and the explosion of outdoor recreation. Here in the states we generally don't have clubs that can charge access fees that go towards trail maintenance, and most land use decisions are made by the Forest Service or municipalities.
E-bikes are here to stay whether we like them or not. The industry and even Pinkbike is jumping on board because of the revenue potential (just take for instance the leading questions in the above survey), so yeah I think as a community one of the best things we can do is to educate and cultivate good etiquette for both traditional bike riders and e-bike riders.
And if you're riding an e-bike on sensitive hand-built trails, for god's sake lap it once and move on! "When you take a chip, just take one dip, and end it!"
Our trails here are pretty hardy, but are built to be. We have 2 dedicated MTB clubs which maintain the trails with the proceeds from donations, fundraising and most importantly, membership. Many trails are bike park, ski hill quality, and are ridden by hundreds of bikes per day, thousands of bikes per week. Our city even comissioned a skills park, and bike trails in a local park - both of which are great.
Ebikes aren't the issue. It sounds as though you need a trail crew, a club, organization and cooperation from the state and city you're in. We're lucky to have all that - but us Canadians almost invented mountainbiking though.
I was passed on my Ebike by XC homies uphill on our last ride out. On the downs - their skinny, hard pressured tires on their hardtail bikes were skidding all over. Tires dragging off of roots and rocks, pulling dirt down with them creating erosion. Us? F*k it, we just jumped that section, or rolled it with speed due to the bikes capabilities. Where you have to brake, there is no need to skid due to too much traction.
We're almost never sessioning 5km loops either, because when you can go bigger, higher and further - you do.
Perception looking in is different than looking out, and as a 20+ year rider currently owning bikes in both camps, E and Non... they're not as bad as most say. No need for regulation of a Class 1 bike, as they come pre-regulated. Its the Class 2 with throttle that is in a grey area which badly needs regulation. IMO, if it has a throttle - it doesn't get cranks and needs to follow moped rules. Easy.
Personally I like Ebikes and I don’t believe they do more damage to the trails or that you need to earn your turns, but with Ebikes going faster than normal uphill the rules of crowded places like Fremont Older may literally need to change to make them safer for all. That doesn’t mean I think they should or should not loose access, but there has to be a reality check to the ebike lovers out there who think it’s exactly the same sport. Now I’m about to go buy a Kenevo SL, and assuming I’m on an ebike legal trail STFU when I pass you by(politely and at a safe spot) because it’s not cheating I’m just richer than you…
Not uncommon for hate and jealousy to compel people to lie. If there were closures we would have heard about them. All 468 are complete liars. Notice that not one comment provides proof of a closure due to e bikes.
The big takeaway here is that pinkbike old should never be trusted.
#PeopleVotingBasedOnEmotion.
Just say, “I decided to spend a lot of money on it because it makes it easier to go up the hill.”
So to counter your rationalization, why would anyone who tries an MX bike ever ride an ebike or a analog bike.
1. batteries - how will they affect the environment in the future.
2. i already own a vehicle for work- i can shuttle etc. It takes a lot of fuel to add up to the savings of shuttling on ebike given the major price difference between analog and quality ebikes.
3. I enjoy exercise
4. my analog bike is not as loud as a ebike
5. fng heavy
6. restricted riding areas
7. my wife would mock me for being lazy
8. i can still pedal so why not
9 battery life/power no where near enough for me- i come from a motorcycle background
10. I just want to get more upvotes than you get down votes ;-)
@suspended-flesh: I have a tolloing motor on my jon boat to get out in the lake to fish (there's no ICE vehicles allowed on the lake). I could paddle it but I'm there to fish, not paddle. Same thing with ebikes. I'm there to ride downhill, not get a nice butt.
Re Trolling. Couldn't you just get a real motor and fish in a lake that allows motors?
Also, to stay on topic, down here in the southeast, ebikes and acoustic bikes go hand in hand and there have been no problems.
The only time I've had issues on trails have been from super fast analog riders (not Bec and Dan - they are lovely!!) wanting to get KoM's on every section and not giving way.
In most places, more riders has brought far more benefits that issues. Hell in Australia local communities are really getting around mtb trails as they revitalise old mining towns and bring people back to the community.
My beef was always about new riders who didn't understand/respect the trails. Now I'm 100% anti ebike and anti e biker after riding with them and hearing them all talk about how they "dont have time to work on the trails". Also, none of them were over 40 and none of them were disabled.
And it’s not like MTB is in a vacuum here. Our society has countless endorphin hits requiring no skill or input to achieve. Why must we pave a road to every single area of human experience?
#EBikeEquality
Most of the bikers are courteous (yield to hikers, use bells, don't ride at mach-chicken), but there's a minority that rip around the place like it's their own race course, and this causes friction and access issues today, even before get to e-bikes.
As a trail maintainer, I combat this by trying to keep the sight lines as clear as possible, and to intentionally promote features that will slow the bikes down, especially on downhills. Now, I have to worry about electric-augmented bikes, which are capable of greater speed, especially uphill. The bikes themselves have substantial mass, and I mostly see them piloted by less-experienced riders - sneakers and no helmet - and treat it like a dirt bike that they have to pedal.
Personally, I'd prefer we stuck with human-powered on trails like this because that's already plenty to deal with. Nobody is going to stop bikes and check for motors though, so if people want to be jerks and run hikers off the trail, there's nothing I can do. Eventually, somebody will get hurt, their insurance will sue the park, the politically connected hiking groups will raise hell with the legislators, and the no-bike signs will go up.
Answer Choice 1: I really hate them
Answer Choice 2: I really really hate them
Answer Choice 3: I really really really hate them
Thank you for participating in the poll
Answer Choice 4: I'm jealous but afraid to try one
Answer Choice 5: I hate them because they pass me on the climbs
Answer Choice. 6: I hate them because I can't afford one
Analogous to what?
eBikes don't make sound?
I wouldn't ride one and I'd rather no else did ON MTB TRAILS (or on most mtb trails).
Oh wait, it's because by putting an extreme choice, they're only giving us a choice between sounding like d!ck or accepting ebikes with open arms. I have no problems with ebikes, but most trails weren't built for them, and I doubt ebikers will contribute as much to the trail system, either in volunteer time, or monetary contributions (considering they will erode trails faster). Let them go out a build their own trails. This is what mt bikers had to do when their sport started. They had to fight for land access, they had to build their own mtb-friendly trails. This poll is definitely geared to skew towards the type of answers industry will like.
Even here though, there's a $9K demo eBike sitting in my LBS right now that the rep pleaded for the owner put on display. Nobody around here needs a full enduro bike, let alone one with an electric motor that weighs 50 pounds! The industry is marketing these things like they're the solution to every problem, when in fact they only make sense for a tiny sliver of riders, and not even all of those are on board with giving up being solely human-powered.
Completely agree.
I see tons of ebikes at my local riding area, where they are explicitly illegal. It definitely irritates me.
Mostly because this is one of the riding areas where another user group is actively trying to get mountain bikers removed from the park, because of conflict and speed differentials :/.
I mean, I sort of like seeing an overweight middle aged lady churning up my favorite local trail with her saddle 15cm too low and a sweatshirt wrapped around her waist with her helmet on backwards. I just might start not liking it if it happens all the time.
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I regularly get passed on the Mt Fromme gravel road(Mt HWY), and you can see a line or roost in the gravel after each ebike. But the path of the analog bikes is invisible.
@Levy
I have no desire for an ebike. But if it got my wife to ride with me on some mellow trails, she's have one. I'm also in my mid-50's so I can possibly see one in my future. Way future, I hope.
Cycle + Motor = motorcycle why this is so hard to realize!?!?
Sure, motorcycling could be fun, but that is not mountainbiking and causes issues if you pretend this is a bicycle, get it.
The last questions simply shows how wrong the industrie (and PB in this case) is trying to turn this around.. 29", FullSuspension, Carbon, that is a different story... has NOTHING to do with a motorcycle and trying to argument this way... weak tactics!!!
Damn, stop being stupid, selfish behavior is what it's all about... protecting conscience, oh yeah, there are a pedals... come on.. This is damn fckn stupid!!!
Be honest by yourself, you already stopped MTNbiking, time to realize!!-go out of the woods or go ride your fckn BIKE (if you still have one) .
Too often I see e-bikes going up what is generally a downhill intended trail. I've had close calls when not expecting to see some a-hole coming up a trail intended for downhill.
If you would not climb it on a regular bike, then for sh*t sake don't do it on your e-bike. Someone's going to get hurt.
We are now talking about making trails directional for those with small brains!
It's rocky, like 30-50cm boulder fields EVERYWHERE, the Emtb just eats it up and enables you to ride things you'd never be able to get either up or down due to it's ability to carry and pick up momentum at 1/2 a turn of the pedals and then carry the speed you simply couldn't generate with legs. It was honestly astounding to me the things we rode, both downhill and indeed uphill. Tracks you'd be carrying your manual bike up, without a doubt, but you get up it on the Emtb.
Did this convert me to Emtb's, well no, i bought a new manual Bird frame last weekend and built it up, because i love cycling... Emtbs isn't cycling in the same way... it's being on a bike, but it's a different game all together. The trails are different, the riding is different and the enjoyment is different.
I don't like living with 'the fear' either. Ending the ride with the battery light flashing as it's about to die and you're instead dragging a 25kg bike up a rock fest, it's not fun, no sir, not at all....
Live and let live!
MTB riders once where freaks, a community of like minded and tolerant people seeking for fun in the forests.
Nowadays every individual thinks what he does is the holy grail and everyone else is wrong and needs to be called out.
Relax people, relax and mind you own business. Every rider will have his reasons why he has chosen the bike he rides.
CHILL!
Related to this is the article a few days ago about Wilderness access. Federal land designated as formalized "Wilderness" receives the highest protection is is often of the best quality. Specifically, the law states "no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport" is permitted in Wilderness areas. This is the language currently forbidding mountain bike access under the "mechanical" catchall. There have been efforts to argue that mechanical=motorized since at least the 1980's, largely based on the legislative history and the context of the other examples given in the sentence. If it becomes accepted that ebikes and mountain bikes are the same, that is a much harder argument to win.
If you are in your 60s and not in good enough shape to ride in the woods safely you should stay out of the woods, now is not the time for X games mode.
- some nerd on a 26"
At least these are useful for identifying shills in the comments.
So I personally will enjoy the heck out of an e-bike on bike trips, or on the right trails, but am pretty annoyed by them on my home trails where they are illegal.
But horses aren't allowed. Those people have it easy enough.
How about a poll more like
-I’ve never ridden a motorcycle or an emtb, but I know they’re the same thing
-I’ve ridden a motorcycle and an emtb, and I know they’re the same thing
-I’ve ridden a motorcycle and an emtb, and I know they’re not the same thing
-I’ve never ridden a motorcycle, but I have ridden an emtb, and I’m pretty sure they’re not the same thing
-I’ve never ridden a motorcycle or an emtb but I’m pretty sure they’re not the same thing
What am I forgetting?
I figure we might as well drop the prejudice and let the people pedal!
So, we both work in the industry... Who is paying for your extra time? My boss pays me by the hour. In my experience, e-bike shoppers require ten times as much hand-holding as the average customer, and are much more reluctant to make a purchase. Too much wasted time, and the shop ceases to be profitable. That's me, and all my coworkers, all out of a job. We seem to be doing just fine--better, actually--since we stopped selling e-bikes. I'm comfortable with that gate being closed.
1. There are A-holes on either type of bike
2. An emtb with a skilled rider on the flat or climbing is no different than a skilled and very fit rider on a regular mtb on the flat or climbing.
3. An emtb going downhill is NOT faster or in any way different than a normal mountain bike going downhill (when that motor cuts out, it feels like an anchor) Fast jump lines are way easier on my normal mtb.
Quick story...for 27yrs I've been married, but never shared anything related to mountain biking with my wife UNTIL last year when she got an Emtb. It has transformed her into a mountain biker (yes, the same skills apply) and it has transformed our marriage for the better. Not only does she ride, but we can ride together! Its amazing! An EMTB is just a fitness equalizer, and a fun enhancer.
4. Having also ridden dirt bikes my entire life, anyone who compares an emtb to a motorcycle of any kind is just ignorant.
5. I can see no reason that Emtb's shouldn't be allowed on any trail a bicycle with fit and fast riders is allowed. All I see are fragile egos and elitist mentalities (most of whom have never even ridden an emtb as evidenced in the poll) keeping emtbs from having the access they should in this country. If they weren't so stupid expensive, it would probably start a health revolution in this country, they are that much fun. If you disagree, I'd love to know why
Digger, one of the most influential trail builders ever and a keystone contributor to MTB culture for decades, has been able to spend the last few years riding the trails he’s built and maintained since before the Shore was a thing. This after barely being able to walk for years prior to knee replacement surgery and being gifted a new e bike.
If anyone tells me “you have to earn your turns” or something equally stupid, I want them to tell me how many trail days they’ve attended and how much of their life they’ve spent “earning” their access to any trail they’ve ever ridden and then I want them to them Digger that he can’t ride his trails any more.
Also can some emtbikers chime in on points for and against ebikes riding mx trails. It seems simple to me as I actually come from a motorcycle background before mt biking and I don't get living with 1/4 horsepower when I could have 50 or 100.
{Coexist: Exist in mutual tolerance despite different ideologies or interests.}
For example, If I plan on waterskiing on a Friday I won't mtb on a Thursday because I won't be able to ski as hard the next day. If I had a e-bike I could ride without worry of getting to sore to ski. There are times when I ride park all weekend and I am so sore at the beginning of the week I won't ride xc and then later in the week I won't ride xc because I want to be 100% for the weekend. An e-bike would definitely expand my opportunities to ride.
Problem with that would also be that for mtb brands , they found a way to get more dentists to sell bikes to , and are less and less interested in providing good value mtb for decent price for normal people like most of us
Sorry Seb, this poll sucks.
Is this a problem? Well yes, trails need more maintenance and more overtaking means the potential for more tension between riders.
If you look at it from further away, E-bikes fit the general trend to make all things easier. It just creates a pretty lazy crowd - you know, the types taking the car to the gym a few blocks away. These guys are now on E-bikes, very easily spotted by wide knees because of a low saddle. Which is fine, because there isn't any significant pressure on their knees anyway.
Disclaimer: I am not talking about the people that have a medical condition, recovering from one, or are simply of age. For those, E-bikes are a great way to get out and get riding with friends.
How many times have you been in a bike park and used the chairlift or gondola? How many times did you go skiing or snowboarding? What if a old-school ski tourer told you you are weak and should have used your muscle power to go up the hill with your snowboard instead using the gondola?
Do you use your car sometimes to travel to a destination? Train? Plane? Why not using your muscle power and walk? Why do you cheat if you can't earn your turns?
Who are you people to define what's right and what's wrong? Ever heard of live and let live?
If just more people would stop spread their frustration and thinking only what they do is right and everyone else is wrong, the world would be a much better place!
I hope to see you on the gondola in the bike park dude - have fun!
You know who you are
Jus sayin
Personally, I ride single speed.
Watch out for all the poison oak, it’s going crazy around here!!
I’ll look for you on your Revel on the trails and say hi!
To illustrate this, I have already attached the following comparison ..
The current hour world record (RR) of the men has been 55.089 kilometers since April 16, 2019 (source: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stundenweltrekord) (standing start), the average performance of the top athlete Victor Campenaerts was according to various calculations around 450W!
This is just an unbelievable achievement, everyone knows who has only looked at it for 10 minutes .. otherwise you can watch one of many examples on this youtube how some “athletes” and also athletes, based on this record, try such an achievement (mostly short) to hold .. and the capacity of the fit Victor is then used also for a few hours of "charging time" for sure. So let's say roughly his battery has 450W / h "content" for a brisk full-throttle ride.
So again: 700W / h, on the other hand, bring the moped batteries (currently), i.e. more than 1.5 times as much. And now guess what the factor would look like with you!? - I would guess if there is a clear majority, the 1 in front has nothing to do with .. and with a lot of people it will be a tight 2.
It should be very clear that we are not talking about support here, but about a different type of throttle of a motorized two-wheeler, not to say a motorbike. There is no counter-argument to .., is there !?
I just see and hear illogical, reality-distorting and funny things from people who grab 1.5 of the Victors on the moped ..
Speaking of which: Our Victor comes with its 450W, which it treads for over an hour, so roughly a power-to-weight ratio of what?-...
75KG .. 450W / 75KG = 6Watt / KG maybe !?
A Bosch or whatever .. incl. Battery weighs what?-.. 10KG (rather less !?)
10KG .. 600W / 10KG = 60Watt / KG
Somewhere the performance of the moped pilot may also play a small role, with luck he will bring 3W / KG on average.
So .. and how do we do it with the weighting .. quite bluntly .. 100KG total system, 10% of that bring 60W / KG, 90% the 3W / KG .. let's just say 0.1 x 60W / KG. .
Yikes .. Oh .. so only the moped alone brings the power/weight of the dear Victor to the weight of the entire system (including the driver!)?!?
So I am Victor, you are Victor, we are all Victor ..
Oh no .. he must have sweated and then had weak knees .. maybe he puked a bit .. but up to this point we all just had to “step on the gas” .. so we decide to add it ourselves noticeably , Victor looks damned fast like a very nice leek .. Now if every amateur athlete is on the road with a power to weight ratio of 9W / KG and thus brings 50% more to the ground than an exceptional top athlete .. Please, have I missed something !?
As far as that is concerned, there really is no room for interpretation, motorcycle and .
And yes, the one who complains about the example, for example. because Victor certainly has a higher "total capacity" over a longer period of time, you should take a look at data from tour (de france) stages ... Stage victory with an average of 246W over almost 4 hours (2000HM and 43km / h). We almost scratch the 1000Wh.
It still means that you can have almost ¾ of the "day's grain" of a world-class athlete in the form of a 10KG package work for you for over 4 hours .. And add your own miserable few watts.
Clearly, the trail use by moped pilots is increasing massively, even if not everyone who buys one will it ever drives on a trail ... every other claim is really ridiculous.
I see the existence of mopeds as very problematic .. Basically I don't see any right to them .. I'm worried about what I'm watching. What are they developed and built for? -Not stvo-compliant, top performance of around 700 watts, 90NM torque, 170mm travel F&R, ... WAKE UP!
Everyone who now switches from MTB to a moped should be aware of this and be honest with themselves .. be clear that there are two pairs of shoes and that it will inevitably require and promote exactly the bottlenecks we had problems with before . Instead, many ignore it completely in favor of their own convenience, wanting to sell it as "oh come on, we all do the same", etc ..
And this “everyone has a right to do so, do you want to forbid other people to have fun!?!” - is something of a lie .. Man, that's obvious!
To each his own .. as long as he doesn't do anything bad to his counterpart, that is, endangers, restricts, harms the common good ... But damn, it does harm and it is not to be equated, no way.
My love for riding bikes increased dramatically, instead of finding excuses not to ride I'm always looking for that spare hour or two to cut some afternoon laps.
I'll admit, I am not at the pinnacle of performance as far as been athletic, those 2-3 hours a week I get for a ride will make little to no difference to my body composition over the course of a week of questionable eating decisions, this is my own fault.
More riding, more laps, more downhills more fun! The trails I'm riding on I maintain so the moot point of wrecking them (which is no real difference IMO) is a moot one.
I don't see any animosity in person either, most people are like "I wish I had one too!" the tides are changing here in Aus and people are a lot more accepting I feel compared to the USA.
in the end, pick a bike and be a dick about it.
It can be an excellent fit for slower riders to hang with faster riders too.
I totally understand the class 2 categorization with actual throttles as those are no longer "assist" bikes... But the people who also claim pedal-assist e-bikes should be considered the same as dirt bikes are out to lunch! Ive ridden moto/enduro my whole life and there's no way e-bikes would make it anywhere near some of the same places a dirt bike can go.
Shit, we regularly get schooled climbing by a Legend of Fitness in his 60's.
It's timeline based on a reasonable expectation of physical wear and tear on two guys who both work in the trades. And, secondarily, a personal goal to be mortgage-free by then.
it’s a better tool for the same task and they’ll be ubiquitous within a few more years.
Nobody cares about your ego, generally access is expanding not retracting. Governing bodies also like ebikes. There’s no other cogent arguments against ebikes.
You can simply calculate what is reality... Therefore you have to check some datas..
85NM by around 85rpm... do the math and it comes out with something around 750Watts!!!-that is no "support"!
Did i missed something?
m.pinkbike.com/news/video-paul-basagoitia-shares-how-an-emtb-has-helped-get-him-back-out-on-the-trails.html
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Class 1 YT Decoy Shred rider here and will never go back to analog. I'm 48 this year with a jacked up knee from it using too much shredding shit throughout my life when I wasn't crying like a baby about what other people are riding. LOL SMH
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Grow up
Mostly just old dudes on Pinkbike from what I've seen.
Through riding and trail work, I've met plenty of the guys who originally built my local trails. Considering they all either own ebikes themselves, or regularly ride with ebikers, I'm going to assume they're not the ones whining about ebikes on Pinkbike all day.