Video: Are We Finally Ready for the Automatic Groupset?

 nein!!!

 So far Shimano has;

1. First Oval chainrings(Biopace) that they got completely backwards
2. Dual control levers that makes you shift when you want to stop
3. Di2 elctronic shifting the nobody bought, even dentists

And now instead of investing in a proper gearbox, with how much resources they have, gives us Auto shifting that is completely unnecessary. Stop fkn around

 Nope.

 @gearbo-x: Shimano also took a run at auto shifting forever and a day ago already. www.bikeradar.com/features/review-raleigh-coasting Spoiler* it was really bad and a nightmare to work on. Granted, not der driven so a little bit apples to oranges, but still.

 I will ask my AI later its currently out riding my bike for me

 @gearbo-x: Shimano is always late to the party. More business for Pinion I guess.

 @gearbo-x: don't forget to pair your dual control levers with a rapid rise derailleur.

 I’m not flat out against it, but I’m skeptical of its practical applications in everyday use, especially out on the trail. I’m also not sure I want to be fiddling with it on an app and all that to fine tune it. I can see that being a fiasco. (Well it works when I do this, but not when I do this! So I changed it, and now it works Ok in this condition, but not that condition).

Beyond that, that video was just hard to watch. Four minutes of fluff talking about manual and automatic transmissions (a word they avoided using for probably obvious reasons) before they finally got to the product and its features. Ugh.

 @TheR: I've always felt automatic car transmissions are usually in the wrong gear, or at least not the gear I'd pick if I was driving a manual.

I have little hope a (less sophisticated) bike transmission would do any better. If I wanted my bike to be in the wrong gear all the time I'd just build up a single speed.

 @Stoaks: Yes. In this case, I guarantee there would be times when I’m trying to climb something technical and would be like, “where is that damn shift?” Or conversely, “F! Why did that shift right there?” I’m fine with a simple derailleur, or the SRAM transmission if I want to get really fancy. That will work fine.

 @gearbo-x: if shimano implemented Di2 same as road it would be a winner, copy sram put battery on mech with wire to shifter... not that hard

 It has almost gotten to the point of "why ride a bike?". Just ride on amusement park rides.

 @SunsPSD: I respectfully disagree. Peak power and peak (presumably, fuel) efficiency do not correlate, and are likely at odds with one another at times.

In my experience most auto transmissions are programmed to shift to the highest gear possible to chase fuel efficiency and hit the auto makers EPA targets. As such, they don't, for example, hold shorter gears long enough on descents or through corners, forcing the driver to manipulate the throttle to get the robot to shift to the shorter gear. In other words, nobody would manually shift through third and fourth gear when braking before a corner just to shift back to second when accelerating through it.

Less respectfully, hey, you know what I know better than I do so thanks for telling me.

 @gearbo-x: don't forget rapidrise

 @Stoaks: Respectfully, modern dual clutch transmissions all decide in the moment to optimize either mpg because you are accelerating slowly, or to optimize acceleration because you are mashing the pedal hard. Since the programming knows where peak torque is (optimum efficiency) and peak power is combined with the gear spreads it can most certainly do this better than a human.

 @SunsPSD: Makes sense. I've never driven a DCT and was referring to your garden variety slush box. So we ended up kind of talking past each other.

Cheers.

 @gearbo-x: Yet their products are still far superior and are finished products when released to public

 @TheR:

 "This ad was brought to you by Outside and affiliates"

 @SunsPSD: Race cars are almost all manual. F1 is semi automatic but to be fair it's against the rules to use auto.

Good auto transmissions in modern road cars (which have a really well defined power curve and generally drives on smooth roads) are definitely better than people now on road. Mountain bikes do not have a defined power curve and are almost never on smooth road.

I would be shocked if an auto bike transmission was at all comparable to any half decent rider but we'll see.

 Where's digital drive mtb?

 @gearbo-x: you are forgetting Shimano Airlines ! (Di2 wasn’t so bad to be honest).

 This is the best idea since Outside acquiring Pinkbike!

 Couldn't have said it better myself!

 I like my bikes as I like my cars. Manual.

 @gearbo-x: because they aren't stupid enough to get into a market everyone praises but don't actually buy!! Funny how you praise the almighty gearbox so much its your name but you have zero pictures of one you own!!

 It's Ok, it's for the e-guys not mountain bikers

 @SunsPSD: tell that to my VW Golf 1.6 TDI with DSG. When trying to accelerate out of a roundabout, it waits until after the roundabout with shifting down, being stuck in 4th until exiting the roundabout at 20mph.. Likewise, it also keeps the gearbox in 6th gear when entering a ciy road until the speed drops below 35mph, making the engine jerky when slowly accelerating.
No, I have enough frustration with driving that car to work. I don't need a bike disagreeing with me about gearing as well.

 Negatory

 I agree. It appears this is geared towards e-bikes that aren’t ridden on aggressive changing terrain. One bicycles are powered by humans that don’t sustain the same power struggles as motors or engines. And 2 I don’t see how this system could be quick enough to react in a situation where you are at high speeds but then immediately come to a short drop that climbs up then levels off. It’s all about looking ahead and seeing the trail and making the decision on what gear I need.

 @TheR: You are bang on about the video. I lasted about 2 minutes before turning it off. It was so boring, and I could tell that it was going nowhere. Please do not create content for the sake of creating content.

 @Stoaks: Ok, so I did a quick scan of the comments to see where to add my two cents and here we are. Auto shifting cannot really work on a mountain bike, but it kinda could. How? Here's how; 1, speed sensor on the front wheel, as it is much more directly tied to trail speed than the rear (skidding confuses the algorithm). 2, sorry kids, but the freewheel needs to move to the bottom bracket if this is a derailleur system. Gotta keep that drivetrain spinning. Gearbox can shift any time. Rider inputs their preferred cadence and the thingamajig sorts out which gear to be in as per wheel speed. This will work maybe ok at high speed but less well at low speed with a derailleur, and pretty well with a Pinion at any speed.

 @gearbo-x:
4. Psylent rear hub that never came to fruition, they should've bought out Onyx.

 @singletrackslayer: I had high hopes for the Psylent hub. So sad.

 @stubestrong: uhh, they did this ages ago before axs. It didn't catch on.

 @CarbonShmarbon: *Gearbox can shift at any time you aren't pedaling*

 @mhoshal: I'm not buying a gearbox yet due to cost, but I'm getting close.
We are going to be spending a lot of money on open transmissions hanging off the back wheel anyway.
Someday, I hope we look back and laugh at derailleurs for mtn bikes.

 @Stoaks: "If I wanted my bike to be in the wrong gear all the time I'd build a singlespeed" is going in my book of fantastic quotes. 10/10

 @SunsPSD: The problem with auto gearboxes compared to human operated gearboxes is that humans can see whats happening up ahead. Any good driver (or mtb rider) will be in the right gear before the event that makes that gear necessary. Auto gearboxes are always playing catch up, reacting to what the driver just did, rather than what the driver is about to do. Manual gearboxes produce faster lap times for this reason. yes to double clutch hydraulic actuation, but no to computer controlled selection.

 @Isaaccop: Yes, I should have elaborated a bit. Upshift at any time, downshift with a release of tension or momentary pause. Shift at any time coasting.

 @Stoaks: none of that is a concern with an electric motor car.

 @TheR: more shit to go wrong on the trail when it gets dark or the sun is rising at an expensive price.

 @gearbo-x: proper gear box? What about just a wireless drivetrain? Is that too much to ask?

 the shit aint even for sale... came out a year ago but no one has it on stock. So its not only no its also cant.

 @stubestrong: Gotta wait for those patents to expire. Don't wanna pay royalties to their competitors.

 @someguy101: late to the party with a stellar business model…ok…

 @stubestrong: Patent

 @rcybak: this was all about content for pay methinks.

 @Isaaccop: having riden one they actually shift fine under moderate/light power, and then so fast once you ease up it's more like a hiccup than stopping the power.

 I still have the No Mopeds filter turned on in my news settings and yet it was bypassed by automatic moped

 @tacklingdummy: exactly! Mountain bikes are not what they use to be. It was fun back in the earlier days. Now the geometry and all the nonsense with bikes has made it kind of a pain. The bike is not as fun to ride. I have a 23 meta hardtail and it’s not as poppy and playful like the older bikes. It’s not as fun to sit and drool over the top of the line bikes and parts like the past and so much more

 @yamahawarrior: "I have a 23 meta hardtail and it’s not as poppy and playful like the older bikes. "

Well i've owned a few hardtails; neither of them where anywhere near poppy; agile and light maybe but not poppy. Maybe for just a second you can consider a hardtail has no preload designed into the bike or suspension platform that will rebound and pop like a frog off a lily pad for starters? I can relate to your nostalgia with MTB in earlier years though. It had a unique atmosphere surrounding it that has faded away, which i believe is due in part to the over-popularity of the sport and abandonment of Bike magazines and simple aluminum or steel frames + the long term familiarity of it became like a dog that was once a new puppy.

I although, would not trade the new rigs for the poorly designed bikes of yesteryear, whatsoever.! The bikes today are leaps and bounds better, safer and more enjoyable to ride than ever.

 @Isaaccop: I think that's one of the selling points of the system in the video and probably why it only works with their pedal assistance. This system can shift when you aren't pedaling as long as the rear wheel spins (forwards). It uses the motor to spin the chainring to complete the shift without actually using it to propel the bike. Considering people value this property of gearbox bikes, I suppose they'd appreciate it in this system too. Which probably implies indeed that we won't have to worry finding this system on a new complete (unassisted) bike. Chances are it will only work with their own motors anyway. So we now have two companies with a gearing/motor ecosystem. Pinion and Shimano. Loads will be rooting for Pinion but because it will probably also be the more expensive option, I can imagine the majority of those who want pedal assist and the ability to shift whilst coasting will still end up with this system.

As for Di2, I thought it was pretty good wasn't it? I haven't ridden it but reviews were positive. I thought AXS just sold more because it saves time on the (complete bike) assembly line. The OEM market is always be biggest market. For me as a rider and home mechanic, the wires wouldn't bother me and the option to mount the battery more centrally makes more sense to me. As for the ability of the AXS mech to protect itself in case of impact, the rapid rise Saint mech (2004 - 2006) and Hone mech (2005 until SLX came) could also protect themselves. Non rapid rise mechs don't need that anyway as the cable doesn't pull outwards. The images I see of the Shimano Di2 mechs is that they also have a spring pulling the cage outwards, so I suppose they'll be equally fine if they're being pushed inwards.

 @Silas13: BMW and likely others have different drive modes for this very reason. Eco plus for fuel saving and a sport/sport+ at the other end and for everything in-between there's comfort mode. I personally think modern autos are awesome and I couldn't shift anywhere near as quick as my 8 speed auto can but on a bike let's be honest it's not the speed of the shift that holds me back it's when it's required and I am the only one best suited to that task. Not some electronic system.
Now if your on an e-bike it makes more sense as your not affected in the same way but for normal MTB's this is a bad idea.

 Sorry I meant to link my earlier comment to something Stoaks mentioned but I accidentally linked it to Silas. I can't seem to edit this now it's posted.

 @CarbonShmarbon: Thing is the preferred cadence changes many times during a single ride. Also what about a situation when your preferred cadence is 85 but the closest gears give you 80 or 90? Slight variation in terrain or power changes your cadence and it could be changing gears there and back again. Of course it's dependent on how it's programmed, but I hope you see the point. As someone already pointed out. Human changes gears depending on what's up ahead, computer changes gears depending on what is currently happening. If you ride flat, then there is a very short steep downhill, let's say 10 meters, followed by a steep climb, I can easily imagine scenario where you enter the climb in the hardest gear because you kept pedalling on the downhill [with auto transmission].

 @TheJD: Well then you use the shifter and just select the gear you'd prefer.

 @gearbo-x:
Dual Control didn't do that. Overdue a comeback with 1x

 @SunsPSD: Why would I get automatic transmission then?

 @Compositepro: You need the 2.0 AI it can multi task, Maybe even wash its self to stay looking good.

 @lake-st: its upset i called it “it” basically now wants to be lnow as kettle/toaster

 I can see entry level riders getting some benefit but anyone that knows what they are doing has no real need for this.

 @gearbo-x: Shimano introduced a lot. Some of it we like, some we don't. It's fine. Buy what you want and/or need and leave what you don't. If you want a gearbox, buy a bike with a gearbox that's already available. What makes you insist on getting a gearbox from them instead?

 @gearbo-x: Let’s not forget about Shimano Airlines.

 @SunsPSD: F1 cars don’t use DCT

 @laksboy: *crapidrise

 @pivotpoint: *rapid demise

 @rcybak: it's not content it's an infomercial

 @CarbonShmarbon: but that's the joy of the opinion and actually the sram transmission they shift at the top of the pedal stroke so you don't need to wait more than a revolution it's a big improvement for gearboxes and apparently Gamux are using it on their dh team so it'll work on non ebikes gearboxes

 Pinion not opinion

 @briain: Yes it is, but they're quite clear about that as well, right? Also, on your way to the comment section you're being presented by the brand banner. You'll also spot the "sponsored" tag. Click it and you'll see Pinkbike is no stranger to this approach. It is their way of doing business and they're being clear about that too so we can all decide for ourselves how to deal with the information given. I think people who can't properly deal with this are not ready for free media.

 @vinay: I don't recall anything quite this brazen on Pinkbike before it's more akin to what you would see on GMBN but still worse than their infomercials. I really hope this video flops, because to me at least it cheapens Pinkbike to put out a puff-piece ad like this. How could you trust anything they have to say about this product? I understand there is a balancing act between ad revenue and editorial but this is just off the deep end and frankly, I hope it stops

 @briain: I don't know. I don't watch too many videos on Pinkbike as I find written articles much easier to skim through to find the info I need. But I did watch the video to understand what the whole thing was about and just filtered the crap about how mechanical shifting is so hard and we need a break every now and then. You'd say people can decide for themselves whether it is hard to move your fingers. Mountainbiking is about looking ahead and anticipating, then adapt your posture, speed AND gear accordingly. Adapting your speed but leaving the gear to be changed by a computer apparently is easier for some according to her rhetoric. I suppose everyone can decide for themselves whether that applies or not. I did find the info I was interested in though, what the system is and what it does. I can imagine for some (utilizing their pedal assist) it could be an advantage to shift without spinning cranks. It is not something I would have understood without watching thhe video, so that was nice. Again, to me that's a matter of anticipation too. And again, I like to have that level of anticipation to be part of the mountainbiking challenge. Maybe it is nice for those who don't. I just hope that we won't end up with tons of people on the trails who don't anticipate at all. I can't see that end well.

 @stubestrong: SRAM holds the patent for the battery in the derailleur. That's why Shimano had to go the "where the hell should I put this battery" way.

 @TheJD: Yup, I totally agree. I was more commenting on how a system could function, but would always have limitations. The rider would adjust the cadence, which is essential shifting, so what's the point. As you and others here have pointed out, it can't predict what's coming, just react. I don't think auto shifting is necessary.
Fast, rider inputted push button shifting in a gearbox, electric or analog, is the best scenario.
( until someone figures out an efficient CVT!)

 @CarbonShmarbon: NuVinci is the only CVT I know of. It isn't efficient though .

 @CarbonShmarbon: I worked at one of the Big Bike Companies in the Bay Area, and we had "beta" versions of the Psylence hubs to test. They worked great ... until you put too much of a load on them. With their manufacturing might, you'd think Shimano could've worked out the issues, but (and this is my theory alone) I think their marketing department killed it due to demand; I think people prefer loud(er) hubs, similar to the same reasons Harley riders like loud bikes. They claim it's for "safety," but I think it's a "conspicuous consumer" situation, where the "angry beez" is a signifier that lets everyone know how much you spend on your bike products.

Long live Onyx--why annoy other trail users when you don't have to?

 @gearbo-x: di2 is very prevalent on the road scene, but yeah a total flop in the mtb market

 @Mac1987: Same experience here. I was willing to give DSG a go after hearing street-light racers raving about it online.

Took one for a drive and hell-no. It got completely flumoxxed by any accelerate-glide-accelerate maneuvre and would take up to 2 seconds of power cut to sort itself out.

So I bought another manual. Automatics are completely reactive and when they get prediction wrong it's badly wrong. In addition to costing more, requiring more service, using more fuel and giving us whole generations who cannot drive anything with more than 2 pedals.

 @gearbo-x: i have spoken these words many times.

 

 Sadly too true...

 @Bro-LanDog: better that then your political affiliation or your sexual identity

 Uhhh, this hits too close to home. My boys are probably never going to be to drive manual. It aches my heart, of course ten years from now it will be illegal to drive a combustion engine.

 @slayersxc17: Not in Europe, we have synthetic fuels coming, keeping combustion engines going for a while yet.

 @slayersxc17: "of course ten years from now it will be illegal to drive a combustion engine"

Betcha $10k this is wrong

 As someone when make my living grabbing gears, it’s over rated. Hoping in my automatic is a relief. And yes my wife can shift an 8LL or 13 Eaton Fuller

 @slayersxc17: got an old accord so my wife could learn it. Although as “a good skill to have” the value is certainly waning, very few new cars sold/available here with three pedals.
@TheR: I disagree, manuals let you drive more efficient and smooth, especially on the highway. An extra interface to tell the car what you want it to do. New autos tend to be faster/better than manuals in racing situations.

 @pmhobson: I hope your right! This probably came across political. Was not my intention.

 @happyheeltoe: new autos are significantly more efficient than manuals. This isn't era or 3 speed slush boxes anymore.

 @Bro-LanDog: this is my understanding as well. Do you have any insight as to why manuals are still dominant in Europe where fuel efficiency has been a higher priority for so much longer?

Do you need a big American (market) motor so see those efficiency gains?

 @pmhobson: I imagine it's partly a historical thing. We have tons of tight and twisty roads, requiring frequent gear changes, and automatics of old (yes, totally different these days) were slow to respond.

 @pmhobson: GDP per Capita dictates cheaper cars. Manual gearboxes are cheaper to manufacture.

 @carlitouk: ahhhh I definitely hadn’t considered road design

 @happyheeltoe: username checks out!

 @happyheeltoe: Manuals keeps people focused on the driving. Harder to be on your phone and drive a manual at the same time.

 @Bro-LanDog: that’s actually pretty funny

 @bmied31: wtf?

 @slayersxc17: You just have to know how to fix one and have the parking space for it. It's pretty simple. Classic plates can be had for vehicles 25 years old in a lot of places....you think they require emissions on them? Also don't tell your insurance it's a daily driver...get Haggerty. You are the failure if your kid can't drive stick. Teach them in a parking lot...

 @happyheeltoe: Just my experience but disagree except for maybe North America. Both my wife and sister in law are not well versed in driving a manual transmission equipped vehicle. Fast forward to us moving to France and vacationing in Ireland. You either pay a huge premium for, or cannot find, an automatic rental vehicle, or I do all the driving.

I also believe knowing the concepts and having some experience driving a manual vehicle makes taking up motorcycling easier. And I do believe mtb'rs do it subconsciously when shifting the bike, and possibly do it better if they have those experiences.

YMMV, but I think there's plenty of life left in the skill of driving manual. And racing is a different animal (bike or car) that applies to almost none of us here.

 Flesh stick

 You're ahead of the curve. Visionary, really.

 That's just a very finely tuned Sram SX.

 Innovation that excites

 I can see the value for e-bikes and users that REALLY don't want to put much effort in; especially those in the US who never have driven a manual and struggle with when to shift gears on a bike.

 @NoGrip61: that's the whole point of this shit, to market MTB to a wider market that wasn't interested when it challenging. Make it easy and sell more stuff

 @NoGrip61: I agree. I have taken beginners on their first mtb ride and shifting was an extra problem on top of the challenges that the natural terrain presents. Even worse with 3x drivetrains of old. This should also become popular in "e-bike SUV's" (such as the Specialized Turbo Tero X) that are often ridden in central Europe as general use vehicles by older non-enthusiasts.

 Here's another idea. How about people stay inside and don't ride bikes at all. That's even easier, right?

 you forgot the avs braking...

 @Dogl0rd: right, it just seemed like the majority of commenters missed that point.

 @lostlunchbox: "Automatic shifting certainly does not change the sport in any drastic manner."

Tell that to the xc folks.

 @wburnes: then get a dirt bike?

 @lostlunchbox: you really don't see the difference? there is a line somewhere man

 @lostlunchbox: the difference between a fully rigid old mtb vs a modern one and the general idea of a MTB vs a now Ebike that has an automatic transmission. You really can't see that?

even if you like it, which is fine to each their own, you have to be able to see that fundamentally ebikes are not the same. they are not in the same evolutionary branch anymore.

 @lostlunchbox:

You've got me all wrong there.

"The truth is revealed by removing things that stand in its light, an art not unlike sculpture, in which the artist creates, not by building, but by hacking away." - Alan Watts

I'm simply trying to say what I believe mountain biking is not.

 At what point do you stop caring what other people spend their money on?

 Hard to stray from that which does not exist.

 Fun. Parties. @BermJunky.

 @BermJunky: accidental upvote, sorry.

 @BermJunky: Deliberate upvote. Any mtb God died a long time ago.

 Where does that leave robotised manuals and semi-auto drivers?

 F1 drivers are apparently not “proper”.

 @no-good-ideas: F1 still uses manually shifted sequential gearboxes. Fully automatic gearboxes are illegal since 2004 in F1. Whats your point?

 Nah, it is just different skills. I can't drive with an automatic gearbox and am fine with manual transmission whereas others may be better off the other way around. I can't see myself do well with automatic transmission on a bicycle but maybe there are some great talents with a BMX background who got shied away by the mountainbike gearing but are willing to give it a shot once that bit gets automated. We'll see. There is so much expensive and advanced shit available for mountainbikes these days yet we can still buy the basic and affordable stuff we need to just go ride that it doesn't really matter. Similarly for cars. Automatic transmission has been available for a long while but you can still get your car with manual transmission too.

 @no-good-ideas: Well, I mean an F1 gearbox is closer to a manual then a traditional automatic in most ways.

 @93EXCivic: seems like another one who didn’t watch the video.

 Proper drivers use dual-clutch transmission. Wanna-be racers use stick shift and tell everyone how they’re better than you.

 Or sequential gearboxes. Either way, not taking your hands off the wheel to shift.

 @nickfranko: Not taking your hands of the bars to shift did make it to the cycling sports, jay!

 99%+ of people in europe driving manual cars would be driving automatic, if only they could afford it

 @nickfranko: Realistically, what elite drivers are using dual clutch gearboxes? Its not the standard in F1, not in Rally, not in Drifting.

 @vinay: huh? You’re actually suggesting there are talented riders out there avoiding mtb because of the shifting?

The hell is going on lmao

 Lolz, go drive a twin stick Mack and get back to me on proper driving.

 Lot of pretentious BS in all of this...

F1 does not use manual gearboxes. It also doesn't use automatics. It uses "semi-automatics" which shift using input from paddle shifters on the wheels. It actually is pretty similar to a standard MTB drivetrain.

 @nvranka: No, not saying they are there or not. Just that if the shifting is holding them back, they might shine if that part gets automated. Just like people who claim the complexity (not just the unreliability or vulnerability) of 2x or 3x drivetrains was holding them back.

But yeah, being a talented mountainbike rider has little to do with the ability to shift gears to me. There is so much more to mountainbiking, shifting gears is only a small and not too exciting part of it.

@TopherJones93 : I'm not into motorsports, but does that mean the driver can't control the clutch? I always wondered how people with automatic gearboxes (in cars) can recover from a skid. I ask them and they're like "I don't know, I just try to not skid". Apparently they can live with that mindset but I'm sure a F1 car driver should have a way to control the clutch, or not?

 @vinay: There is a switch on the steering wheel that they can flick that allows them to get off the line. Not sure if this is essential to operation or to just try to make the starts interesting. But the sequential gear box that is used doesn't need a clutch in the traditional sense. There are some neat videos on YouTube comparing the different styles.

I had never thought of using the clutch to get out of a skid... I can drive a manual, but I am not an expert. But after many winters of drifting/skidding in my automatic car, I always let of the gas and brakes and then do the steer-counter steer to control. I guess the clutch does a similar thing to letting off the gas and brakes?

 @TopherJones93: If you let off the gas, the engine is actually braking the wheels. If you push the clutch down, you allow the wheels to catch the ground more easily. The steer-counter steer thing doesn't change nor letting off the brakes and gas, but disconnecting the wheels from the motor helps a bit more. High-rpm motors like those F1 cars even brake a lot when you release the gas. I've heard you can't just suddenly release the gas as it would brake harder than anyone could ever brake in a regular passenger car. Some people said one option is to flick the gear lever (or whatever it is called) back to neutral. Which I can imagine could work, but it doesn't seem as great as being in a position where you can keep both hands on the steering wheel (or at least have some control over which one you can release). Maybe those semi-automatic cars with gear paddles near the steering wheel also have a switch to make it go back to neutral? That might work but again, unless these paddles rotate along with the steering wheel you may not be able to reach them in all situations (as you also need to steer to catch back your grip on the road).

 @TopherJones93: F1 uses sequential dogbox transmissions, like many motorsports. If you take it apart it is far more similar to an H-pattern synchronized manual than anything else. User controlled shifting (mandated in F1), and occasionally user-controlled clutch, I'd say it more manual than automatic.

Also please don't clutch in to correct skids (oversteer). Correct technique is using the appropriate amount of throttle to balance wheel speed and weight transfers to maintain control

 @nickfranko: but have you driven non synchronized gears...can you even double clutch bro...

 @irafd: ah yes, that poor socialist country of europe, with the capital of london, where people cant afford a car because their free healthcare and education is keeping them in chains.. they are forced to use a train to commute, imagine the horrors!

 @IsaacWislon82: Well yeah, the throttle allows you to recover traction more smoothly (as it can be a bit harsh if the wheels recover grip again) but so far I haven't seen real issues with this approach. At least much better than completely letting go of the gas (so that the wheels are being braked by the motor). But it also depends largely on the road surface I'd say. I think I can control a skid using the throttle if the road surface is smooth and predictable. If it has icy patches, lines of frozen snow etc I find it easiest to just push down the clutch and focus on the steering to get the car in the correct direction before I bring the clutch back up. It probably also depends on the vehicle. Long heavy cars with big tires are easy. I once got a long Volvo S80 to (unintentionally) skid on their test track and it was really gradual and easy to pull back. I don't even think I used the clutch, just steering did it. Short light cars just take a different approach. A 800kg Peugeot 107 rotates much faster and bounces off everything. The clutch just works fastests in those situations. A bit like riding a bike in slippery conditions. Find the spots where you can steer, brake and pedal and loosen up for the bits in between.

 @GZMS: free healthcare, free education... no adult believes in anything free.

listen, i grew up in europe, you don't have to tell me how things are over. i said that vast majority of people drive manual cars only because automatic cars are more expensive, not because they enjoy driving stick. and that is a fact.

for some reason you wanna make it about healthcare and education, i'm guessing you're butthurt about a simple fact that most europeans would rather be driving automatic cars, but it's cost prohibitive.

and i only mentioned europeans because it's virtually impossible to find a manual car here in the US - it's not even an option on most econoboxes, let alone higher end cars. it's an option on very few cars, mostly sporty ones

 @IsaacWislon82: I was trying to go a bit more lay-man than dive into sequential gearbox, but yes I agree with everything you say about it being more similar to a manual than an automatic in construction. But, I think the discussion is more related to driver experience/skills than construction... Where shifting gears on a MTB currently requires some skill with regards to timing, pedal strokes, not getting caught in the wrong gear for a moment, etc, all of which have corollaries to driving a manual transmission.
Then people said that F1 cars are more like manuals than automatics, which from a technical point may be, but from a driver skill/experience perspective, I don't think is correct, as the paddle shifting doesn't feature clutch work skills and timing like a manual does...

 @irafd: that is not a fact, that is some stupid BS you made up.. europeans buy cheaper cars because it is practical to have a SMALL car in a dense city , living in an apartment.. there is no space for fullsize cars.. and compact cars are usually manual, partly because of cost, but also because of weight and packaging.. in recent years when weight and packaging gets better for automatics it is seen on more new compact cars.. europeans are also buying way more EVs, which are 5-10K more expensive vs petrol cars.. so i think they would be able to scramble extra 250$ for an automatic if they wanted it.

Also i mentioned education and healthcare because you somehow made automatic car a symbol of american greatness, because freedom brah

 @nickfranko: Which proper drivers? Chavs in their Golf GTIs showing off how their mighty 4 cylinder sounds with a 'pop and bang' map, and flooring between street lights in a middle of a city... then telling me how their DCT shifts at least .5s faster than I can in a manual car, but they've never been to a race track and they only use it in auto mode anyway, because they hold their steering wheel with one hand at 12 o'clock 'cause it looks so cool?


Nobody in their right mind uses an automatic gearbox in motorsport. Almost every race car (track/rally/drift) has a manual gearbox - either an H-pattern or sequential, depending on a budget ;-). Sequential works somewhat like a derailleur on a bicycle - you MANUALLY change one gear at a time, there is no automatic mode and you have to use the clutch to stop and start moving, in many cases you have to use the clutch to downshift, or at least do a throttle blip. Some racing series allow auto-blip, so in those cases drivers do not have to do it on their own on downshifts... those (sequential) gearboxes are also usually pneumatically controlled.

There are race cars with dual clutch transmissions, but those are mainly used in lower series (e.g. TCR) and this is because they are cheaper, not better. Still, nobody in their right mind would use an automatic mode there, because it is completely useless on a track, sport mode or not ;-).

When it comes to the fuel efficiency, I quite often drive two automatic cars, a Hyundai I40 and a BMW 1 series and in both cases I can get ~20% (!!) decrease in fuel consumption when I drive them in manual mode instead of full auto. That is because I use engine braking much more and because I can see the road ahead, I can predict some situations so I use the gearbox to my advantage and don't have to wait for it to react.

When it comes to track driving, we had 2 identical Porsches - a manual and a PDK Cayman S. Used both on the track that I know very well and did almost identical lap times. PDK sometimes was a bit slower because there is a slight delay between pushing the button and gear change which does not exist in a manual, and it messed up my braking zones sometimes. PDK is also heavier, which does not help as well. Even when I got used to the PDK, I wasn't doing any better lap times than with a manual. Of course we could reprogram the PDK to shift faster, but it could also be damaging to the gearbox, and it is a road car, you are not winning any races with it, PDK or not. Our manual, race prepped M3 smokes both of those Caymans on a track, as well as basically any road car, dual clutch or not.

@TopherJones93 - you do not need to use the clutch to downshift in an F1 car, you need it to start and stop, but it is just F1, as I wrote above, in most race cars with a sequential gearbox you have to either use the clutch and throttle blip on downshifts, or at least do a throttle blip (if you can afford servicing you gearbox more often, which is VERY expensive).

Also, in drifting you use all 3 pedals. It depends on the situation, but you control the car and your drift with brakes, clutch and throttle. Just look at any pro drifter's pedal cam, they use their clutch a lot, and that's not only for clutch-kick ;-)

 @GZMS: it IS a fact. what difference in car size does it make if a car is automatic or manual? it's clearly you making up stupid bs. automatic cars are heavier, but really that's only a concern if you're trying to save money, and heavier cars are clearly less efficient. you guys drive smaller/manual cars because of the COST, period. there are cars of ANY size with automatic transmission, you just can't afford one.

when you talk about smaller space, and urban driving - wouldn't it make your lives EASIER if you drove automatic. of course it would, but then again, it costs more money.

people who buy EVs could afford an automatic car (talking about the initial cost here), but most people who drive manual cars CAN'T - that's the whole argument.

also, europeans buy more EVs because:
a) it makes more sense - shorter commutes, more urban driving - EVs for MOST americans make 0 sense
b) gas is WAY more expensive than it is over here
c) cheaper maintenance
d) tax incentives
e) you like gay stuff

so really, going with an EV is about SAVING money long term. do you think any EV buyer would option manual transmission if it was possible? yeah, me neither.

people who have money tend to buy bigger cars, they have a garage, a reserved parking space, and don't really care about tight parking spaces as much as the rest of the people do, even if they live in a bigger city.

nah, automatic cars are not necessarily a symbol of american greatness, but definitely a symbol of prosperity.

clearly you have no idea what you're talking about - the last thing you wanna do is debate our education and healthcare.

 @irafd: Yeah, I clearly can't afford an automatic. All my cars are manual because I am poor. My Corvette is a manual, my M3 is a manual, my Alfa GT 3.2 is a manual and my 5 series wagon is a manual as well. My best friend and business partner can't afford an automatic too, because his Boxster, Cayman GT4 and C7 Z06 are all manuals. We're all so poor and jealous of your American wealth. Got some spare change?

People here like their small cars and trust me, even super wealthy people here drive small cars quite a lot, cities here are much more dense, streets are narrower and parking spaces are small, it is easier to drive a smaller car, and small cars with manuals are just quicker. Forgot to add, when I have to commute around my city, I take my manual hot hatch... Mainly because I can not afford an automatic SUV, of course.

You have some serious issues man, maybe it's the amount of homeless and poor people in the US and you need to compensate somehow... anyway, from my experience, an average European is much wealthier than an average American.

 @kuejku: hahahah, you're such a clown. why are you so butthurt? i've stated multiple times that the vast majority of people drive manual cars because of the cost, not everybody. i said manuals are an option on sporty cars almost exclusively, as manual cars add 0 value to normal day-to-day driving - if you exclude cost related benefits.

good for you if you can afford to have multiple sporty cars, enjoy them.

are you trying to tell me you're an average european? most europeans have multiple porsches and corvettes in their garage? average european takes their cars to the track? no? then why are you talking about yourself and your boyfriend when we're talking about an average manual car driver... talking about someone having some serious issues...

and no, an average european is not more wealthy than an average american, not even close

 @irafd: Yes, many Europeans have multiple expensive cars in their garages or can afford other expensive stuff if they're not interested in cars. Even if they don't, most car buyers here could easily afford an automatic, but choose not to. Many used cars with automatic gearboxes here are cheaper then their manual counterparts, so actually... people tend to pay more for a manual. You know... I am not living in a bubble, I even have some friends (wow!) and most of them are quite average when it comes to their income. Many of them drive manuals just because they prefer it, Maybe you should change your news source and stop believing the propaganda you're clearly being fed. Life in Europe is pretty good and an average person here is wealthier than an average American. Some countries are poor of course, but most of the European population lives in those wealthier countries. Life must be really bad for you if you are so angry all the time and need to insult random people on the internet (you must be very brave!), I am sorry for you man.

 @kuejku: again, you can't sell that bs to me - i've lived in europe, i visit there every year. i know very well how people live there.

in fact, i'm a dual US-EU citizen, and could live in any of your utopias, but for me it wouldn't make financial sense. i could live in the UK too, if only i wanted to. keep lying to yourself that driving manuals for MOST people is about the driving experience, and not cutting cost, but you can't convince anyone else.

used automatic cars are cheaper because they're more expensive to maintain, same reason why used luxury cars depreciate more than economy cars - thanks for proving my point once again. people do the math, and see that owning an automatic car would be more expensive, and they go with a manual. again, not because of the driving experience, but because it's cheaper.

again, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, i bet you never even visited the US - and you're telling me to change my news source?

 @irafd: Of course you do, probably better than us Europeans... anyway, somehow I feel the same about the US though, I had a lot of opportunities to move there, but I'd never want to live there. And you would lose your bet, I have a family in Boston and Wilmington. Also, torque converter automatic gearboxes are quite often cheaper to maintain than a manual (no need to change clutches, dual mass flywheels, less issues with linkages...) and people know it very well. I am gonna leave it here, got to go ride my bike. One last thing I wanted to say - every time you attack and insult someone, especially on the internet, you are only insulting yourself. This kind of behavior says a lot about you.

 @irafd: bruh. You really need to lay off the drugs or whatever you’re on.

American cars size, transmission, and comfort are all about the stupid dick measuring contest that most Americans partake in with their vehicles. Do 99.9% of the pick up trucks ever get used for anything other than hauling a diabetic driver???? Bragging about our vehicles isn’t anything worth bragging about.

 @kuejku: ok, let's settle this, answer truthfully:

let's take a common econobox for example, let's say a mazda 3. now imagine if that brand new car, an automatic and manual, cost exactly the same. let's say the gas mileage is the same, same depreciation, cost of ownership, everything is the same, other than the transmission part, ofc.

now tell me - which one would the MOST buyers go for?

 @sunringlerider: drugs? go read all the comments above and then come back and tell me where i was bragging about our vehicles - i actually read your comments, and you stated yourself that driving an automatic is a relief. as is for most people. all i said was that if the COST wasn't an issue, MOST people driving manual cars would be driving an automatic.

you really lack reading comprehension skills.

no dick measuring about driving an automatic, don't be ridiculous. you don't have to haul stuff all the time in your bed to justify getting a truck. a few home depot runs a year easily make the math work over a smaller vehicle, especially if you have kids, outdoorsy hobby, etc.

and no, i don't own/drive a truck, nor does my wife...

 @irafd:

LOLZ

Your comment about euro folks enjoying gay stuff and signs of prosperity are having automatics are all the reading comprehension that I need.

Hell ya I own and automatic car and it drives awesome.

Justifying a truck to not haul things??? That’s comedy gold.

 @sunringlerider: clarly you have no idea what reading comprehension even means. read that again - i said hauling stuff ALL THE TIME.

yes, there are standards by which prosperity can be measured. if you compare two postal codes anywhere in europe, higher and lower income ones, and you compare a number of automatic cars, i GUARANTEE you that the higher income one will have more automatic cars registered per capita.

again, over here automatic cars are the default, and manual cars are a sign that you're a car enthusiast. in europe it's a bit different - manual cars are the default, and opting for an automatic could be interpreted as a kind of status symbol, no matter how small.

why am i even wasting my time, you drive a mack for living, and it shows

 @irafd: you americans buy houses out of plywood clearly because your gdp is so low and you are so poor…

 @GZMS: we're much more mobile, and move out into a new home way before materials used cause any issues. it makes sense to do so, because houses usually appreciate in value, and buying a new one isn't a problem.

but seriously, you're not going to address anything stated above?

 @irafd: your mazda 3 econobox example, just hilarious... most of european econoboxes - yaris, juke, fabia, c3 - are not even sold in US, so your understanding of the situation tops out at mazda 3.. hilarious.. next, what would the people choose..? for many of the cars they would choose manual, regardless of cost, especially for 5 y.o. cars or older… just because automatics are so horrible, especially in small, low-hp cars… now the situation is changing, but not because of money, but because new autos are actually decent.. if you offerred people a 2016 yaris (or similar) with an 8 speed ZF, they would probably took it vs manual, but guess what, such cars dont exist.. is the cost a factor? Yes, no less or more than in the us.
Also, your idea about average eu v us is hilarious. Try comparing medians

 @irafd: oh, so there are other considerations about houses , not only costs? Who would’ve thought? Apparently it only works for houses, but not cars.

 @GZMS: wrong - yaris was sold up until very recently, so was juke. clearly your understanding is lacking, not mine. most econoboxes sold here are sold in europe as well, but obviously they're not identical. main difference - bigger engines, no diesels, and automatic transmission.

read again - i said BRAND NEW car, as there are way less variables this way - mileage, condition, etc.

i'm telling you again, manual transmission in econoboxes here in the us are virtually non-existent. manual transmission is reserved almost exclusively for sporty cars - usually for people who have another daily driver.

what people consider econoboxes here (rav4, cx-5, etc.), are actually quite nice and big cars in europe. am i wrong?

sure, medians, let's compare medians - people tend to say average, but in reality they mean median. what do you want to compare?

 @GZMS: dude, you make no sense. try that again. everything is about a cost, whether it's short or long term. why would you buy a brick house, if it's much more expensive than hardy plank, if the extra cost starts paying for itself long after you move out of that house?

 @irafd: Volvo actually get it right. And again you are justifying doubling your fuel expenses because you might haul some flowers from Lowes. How is that not a dick measuring contest again?

I could go on, but anyone that resorts to immature jabs on the internet, probably doesn’t have the brain power for much comprehension of anything outside of their very narrow opinions.

 @irafd: yes rav4 and cx5 are considered medium sized cars here… quick google tells me yaris was sold in us from 2019.10 to 2020.06.. impressive 8 months..

What is brand new? This month? This year? Do you have stats about manual vs auto in eu for whatever you call brand new? Or are we talking about current cars on the road, of which most are 5-10 year olds?

Manuals are nonexistent in US because people dont care to know, understand or actually enjoy the shit they consume. Thats why fast/frozen food, starbucks and plywood homes are also very popular. Also its the reason why US car manufacturing had very limited success producing any proper luxurious cars, or why your most popular sportscar had rigid axle until 2015. Or is it because you are so poor and cant afford a car with independent suspension? Can’t tell…
You like driving automatic no matter how shit it is, just because it is less work. I like driving whatevers drives better, or better suits my use case.
And btw, I see the value in the american way, it is just that this is not the only way

 @sunringlerider: well, you said mack above. but really - volvo, mack, whatever, same shit, still doesn't take a degree to drive it.

you would buy a truck because trucks:
a) are cheaper to buy than a full size SUV (that shares the same platform, always) - if you have three kids, good luck putting three child seats in a smaller car (comfortably), not to mention if you have more kids
b) depreciate less
c) are easier tax write offs
d) provide utility - rent a trailer a few times a year and tell me you're saving money on gas
e) more fuel efficient than they used to be (four cylinder full size trucks are nothing unusual today) - what's $500-1000 a year if you're gonna drive something you don't enjoy
f) are usually cheaper to maintain and less gimicky
g) if you have an outdoorsy hobby and pull a trailer or a boat, a pick-up truck is basically a no-brainer
h) are safer than f*cking corollas - tell me how much you saved if an under/un-insured driver hits you and you end up in a hospital

again, i don't have a truck, but a lot of people i know do, and it makes perfect sense. i was considering one, but didn't make sense for us plus we didn't like the driving experience so it didn't happen.

instead we have two mid-size suvs (large suvs by european standards), because i don't wanna think about how a child seat is going to fit, if we're going to have to pick up somebody else, and want to minimize the risk of serious injury in potential crash.

 @irafd: assumption usually don’t work in your favor. But please tell me again how owning my own business that happens to use semis to deliver our products makes me apparently inferior in intellect to you?
Yes, please inform me about how to write off trucks for taxes, I am completely unaware?

 @GZMS: it was sold for way longer, definitely before 2019, but that's not an issue here.

brand new means when you're the first, original owner of a car, when you buy it directly from a dealership and no one else before you farted in the driver seat (one can only hope), a few miles/km on the odometer, really doesn't get any simpler than that.

i'm not going to argue that the average american consumer is very informed, but just as most people all over the world, people just want cool stuff that's easy to live with. nobody really cares what YOU like driving per se, i made an argument that an average driver would pick automatic over manual, because an average driver just wants to get from point A to point B, and work as little as possible while doing it. but there is the cost that most people can' justify with pure convenience.

horses for courses.

oh, and i've never owned an american car. how do you know what cars i drive to make such a statement?

 @sunringlerider: well, if you know that tax write offs exist, why is it still puzzling to you how people can make math work on a truck? on top of other benefits of owning a truck? yeah, not proving much intellect there.

you said you drive a mack, and you clearly do it for work, not fun, so what part did i assume incorrectly?

 @irafd: wait wait wait. Weren’t you razzing on reading comprehension? Never mentioned I drove a Mack truck. I was referring to a very old transmission that is quite challenging to drive.


There is quite the difference in using the tax code to your advantage and driving a pickup. . . but then again I’m just a dumb truck driver.

 @irafd: first owner, bought in which timeframe? All the cars that got their first owners this year? Last five years? That’s how statistics work, over some time period..

So what about those average sportscar buyers in the US, are they so poor to only be able to afford a rigid axle car? Or a car with plastic trunk and fenders, that claims to be an icon?

You did not make an argument that an average driver would pick an automatic against manual. That is how you later tried to twist your argument. Which i still disagree with, because it is hard to define what is an average driver. You first of all made an argument that the fact that EU has more manual cars as a proportion, is a proof of a lower standard of living in EU.

 @sunringlerider: you mentioned driving a mack few comments above. i was reading between the lines

we're talking about a work truck here, not a ferarri, relax.

 @irafd: you are correct, Ferraris are cheaper.

 @sunringlerider: and you're telling me to get off drugs, ahahaha

 @GZMS: my original comment, word for word:

"99%+ of people in europe driving manual cars would be driving automatic, if only they could afford it"

you misinterpreted it, when it meant what it said - most people in europe (i said europe, not EU, but nevermind) driving manual cars would be driving automatic, if they could afford it/justify the extra cost associated with automatic cars. and i still stand by what i said. i didn't mention the US, because as i stated multiple times before, there are no manual econoboxes here.

ok - another one - are there more automatic cars in the richest parts of the eu, or the poorest ones? c'mon, what do you honestly think?

why you keep coming back to sport cars? i don't even know what car you're talking about.

also, are you f*cking retarded? when i say brand new, i mean brand new at the time of purchase, the way any person with common sense would understand it.

you don't know what an average driver is? ok, let me make it really simple, so even you can understand - go to your local grocery store, pub, whatever, randomly pick out 100 people. ask them if they'd rather drive stick or automatic, and whatever answer you get (automatic), that's what an average driver would pick...

 @irafd: the avergare person in america does want to just get from A to B.. in europe a lot of people have some form of car culture or car appreciation even if they drive a 20yo toyota wagon.. there is still a huge part who want to just get from A to B , but ironically these are either 18yo college girls who buy a cheap car to learn to drive , so they buy a manual.. or someone like my 85yo grandpa, who was driving a manual for 65 years and cant be bothered to switch..
I’ve been working in car trading for some time, and there was a portion of business of used cars (3-5 yr old) coming from US, and it was very well evident that “average” driver there doesnt care much about what they drive or what state they keep their car in.. a bit similar to french in that regard.. quite different from dutch or swiss or even italian..

 @GZMS: well, an average person in america wants to get from point A to point B in:
a) comfort
b) style
c) safety

and in this order. driving experience is probably the last on the list, way behind reliability and utility.

that doesn't mean there aren't car enthusiasts who drive muscle cars, ricers, old timers from 50s and 60s that look more pristine than when they were brand new, or off roaders, or whatever the subgroup, i'm sure you get my point. and you're way more likely to find manuals here, than with the rest of drivers

 @irafd: yes your original comment said “could afford it” , now you are framing it as “could justify extra cost”.. which are different things. And now you are just pussying out.

At the time of purchase? There are many different times of purchase. And in order to gather statistic you have to track the purchases over a period of time. That is how any analysis of the market is done. That is how car companies gauge the demand of the market. Or are you too stupid to understand that as well?

If you go to a random pub in europe, pull 100 people and ask them what they would buy, you would roughly get the same percent of manuals as is actually currently sold, say this year. And this percentage will be higher than if you do the same survey in US. And the difference of US vs europe has almost nothing to do with cost because cost is a small factor between these two options.

 @irafd: tell me you know nothing about the agriculture world without telling me you know nothing about the agriculture world.

 @sunringlerider: we're talking about trucks people buy to use as personal vehicles, not actual work machinery. you know, f-150s, 1500s and silverados. i don't know where you lost track of what we're talking about, nobody was talking about agriculture machinery...

 “we're talking about a work truck here, not a ferarri, relax.”


I am relaxed. Most of the grocery getting pick up bros are driving the higher spectrum of trucks. Most of those are $80k+ at this point, which yes is less than a spaghetti racer.

 @GZMS: if you can't justify the cost, it really means you can't afford it. if you made more money, it would be easier to justify something. so it's really the same thing basically. like, if you could pay extra couple of thousand on an automatic, but you'd rather buy some furniture or fix something in your house, that's what we're talking about. but in scenario where the cost is the same, automatic wins 9 times out of 10.

just stop playing dumber than you are, admit you're wrong and get on with your life, it's not worth wasting so much time arguing such a well known fact.

if i buy a new (brand new car, or new car to me, doesn't matter) car today, that's a time of purchase. so, at ANY time. you pick. last month, last year, last five years. my argument was that people manuals vs automatics in general, regardless of time frame, because of the cost. whether it's the last month, year or a decade. c'mon, not even you are that dumb not to understand that.

my point is - if you asked them what would they buy IF THERE WAS NO PRICE DIFFERENCE - that's the only way you can exclude the cost out of the equation and gauge how people feel about driving experience, manual vs automatic

 @GZMS: Funny to hear people generalize entire continents. Keep up the entertainment factor, just know you'll always be both right and wrong. As it always applies to some but never to all. I can only speak for myself (living in The Netherlands). And again, what applies to me applies to a lot of people, by far not everyone. First of all it is not just a matter of being rich or poor, it is also a matter of what you're willing to spend your money on. For instance, it baffles me how some people manage to spend silly money on a cellphone even though they don't have the money to afford a balanced diet. Either way, I don't want to spend a lot of money on cars or whatever goes with it (maintenance, fuel etc). So that means it needs to be reliable, efficient and easy and cheap to repair. Some people swear by German, Swedish or Czech cars, I've got good experience with French cars. Fuel consumption (petrol) is about 4.5l/100km on average, which I think is quite decent. Every time I looked, listed fuel consumption in the catalogs was lower for manual than for automatic transmission, which inherently makes it cheaper (and slightly less environmental-unfriendly) to drive a manual transmission car. I understand automatic transmission seems to have improved recently, primarily because of the addition of gears. Bigger manual gearbox cars have six gears too so that might trickle down eventually. If automatic gearbox cars have even more gears but they only become useful beyond the speed limit, what's the point? Personally automatic gearbox cars (which I indeed have driven in Canada, the US and Australia) don't quite work for me. I choose my gear based on what's coming ahead, these automatic systems are "blind" and can't anticipate. Despite what's being pictured in the video, shifting gears isn't "hard", it is quite intuitive. Who out of everyone here agreed with her statement that shifting gears on a bike is demanding? I don't recognize this at all, not on a bike nor in a car. And maybe for people into racing cars it matters who quickly one can shift gears but for someone in normal traffic anticipating properly, there is never a need to rush. If you need to act quick it is to steer or brake (and operate the clutch indeed), but I can't imagine a situation where you'd need to shift gears in that much of a hurry that manual shifting becomes a challenge.

 @irafd: if you ask random people what would they buy for a regular daily car even if there is no price difference , americans would 100% choose autos.. europeans would not be 100%.. 80-85, maybe, but not 100.. that is a simple fact, that your stupid brain is too stupid to understand.. and out of this fact comes the conclusion that your statement that “europeans would buy automatics, if they could afford it” is wrong..

And yes timeframe matters , if you ask this question 5 years ago , you get one percentage, if you ask it now, you get different numbers. If you ask it in 10-15 years from now, you will probably get close to 100%, as you imagine in your head. But currently it is not the case in europe. And that is a fact.

 @vinay: i am generalising only to the extrnt that i saw multiple cars coming from different countries.. and i am not talking about cars manufactured there i am talking about used cars driven in those countries.. a bmw 3series from netherlands, france, and us looks quite different after a few years of ownership.. dutch and swiss are usually very clean, very well maintained, no scratches, sometimes with aftermarket upgrades.. US and french are often (not always, obviously) are a complete dumpster in and out

 @GZMS: hahaha, you f*cking retard. i never said everybody, only vast majority. that's why i keep using terms like 'average driver', 'most people', etc.

by saying that 80-85% of europeans would be driving automatics rather then their manuals, you are completely agreeing with me. whether it's 80, 90 or 99 percent of the people, it doesn't matter at all - it's still MOST PEOPLE.

and then you say 100% of americans would choose an automatic, which is also wrong - i just happen to know two people who daily manual cars, and they had to go out of their way to get them.

of all the people i've talked to, you're the only one i've had to explain what brand new means, and you still don't get it.

cars you see from the US are mostly salvaged - have been in wrecks, floods, hail or whatever, and were written off as total damage by insurance. as such they're basically illegal here, so we ship them off to shithole countries such as yours, so you can finally have some nice cars

 @irafd: but 80-85 is how much is sold right now as automatics.. so where is the “would be” of your statement? You implied that there are some obstacles for europeans to get to the percentage they want, and there is no such obstacle because such minute cost differential is already a nonfactor in purchasing decisions..

You said one thing. And now after you realised how retarded that thing was, you are behaving like a complete pussy and trying to twist you own words.

 @GZMS: you're proving to be dumber and dumber with each post - i said MOST PEOPLE DRIVING MANUALS would RATHER BE DRIVING AUTOMATIC CARS if only there was no issue of COST.

dude, just read your last post before this one. you really are hopeless.

here's a quick read - in 2020, over 80% of cars sold in europe were MANUAL. where tf did you get a number of 80-85% automatics?

blog.getmyparking.com/2020/01/20/why-does-europe-prefer-manual-cars-over-automatic-ones/#:~:text=3%20min%20read,-Reading%20Time%3A%203&text=According%20to%20a%20study,between%20manual%20cars%20%26%20automatic%20cars.

 @irafd: there is no issue of cost with modern manuals you stupid monkey. They cost either the same, or just a few pennies more. Anyone who WOULD RATHER an automatic in europe, buys an automatic. If you count cars on the road, yes most are manual, but you insisted many times you are talking about new purchases, so I hope you wont be a bitch and flip your opinion on this one again.

You posting bullshit blogpost with no sources or methodology, as some evidence. Truly retarded.

Here some posts for you that say 75% in 2021:
mobilityforesights.com/product/automatic-transmission-market
Or 54% in Uk in 2019:
www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/analysis-are-manual-gearboxes-way-out

And you maybe noticed, it is 2023 already.

 @GZMS: listen, you little shit - as i said so many times, most people who buy MANUAL cars would rather be buying AUTOMATIC cars. i've said that million times, and keep saying it, but your stupid ass just doesn't get it.

just because someone buys a manual, that doesn't mean that that's what they prefer. if cost difference associated with automatic transmission were $0, then there would be virtually 0 new manual cars sold.

for instance, cheapest yaris in germany costs about 20k. cheapest automatic is about 23k. that's about 15%!!! that's a huge difference, and not few pennies as you say.

with opel astra there is over 5k difference (though gas vs diesel, but still) - 26k vs 31k. again, huge difference.

that's not including extra gas cost, etc.

and the market is clear, even in europe more and more people are buying automatics - but still not a majority of people. and that's mainly because manufacturers are pushing automatics for fuel efficiency, and the cost is lower than it used to be.

anyway, to prove how retarded you are, and how you make my argument for me, i'll quote the article you linked:

"Premium brands are among those shedding the manual fastest. Only 10% of cars Volvo sold in the UK this year up to the end of September were manuals. It dropped its manual option for the Volvo V60 earlier this year so now offers it only on the T2 and T3 variants of the Volvo XC40. Mercedes was already selling fewer manuals than anyone else. Its automatic share was a whopping 82% across Europe in 2018, with Volvo next at 78%, according to International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) data.

Countries where premium cars take more sales ditched manuals long ago. In Luxembourg, for instance, 90% of cars sold in 2018 were automatic, according to the ICCT, while in Switzerland it was 74% and in Sweden 73%."

so - who buys premium cars? what's the difference between switzerland, luxembourg and the rest of europe?
manuals are still reserved mainly for the poor and enthusiasts.

now stfu, and go back to driving your piece of shit and keep comforting yourself you do it for 'the driving experience'

 @GZMS:
"Manuals will survive longer in budget cars, due to their lower production cost. The Ford Fiesta was the best-selling manual in the first nine months of 2020 in the UK, according to Jato, followed by the Vauxhall Corsa. Across Europe, just 3% of Dacia sales were automatic in 2018, while it was 6% for Fiat and 14% for Opel and Vauxhall. Manuals are often thought of as the driver’s choice for sports cars, but they’re losing ground there, too. BMW won’t offer a manual version of its new M4 Coupé in the UK, yet will in the US – a country where manuals took just 1.1% of sales last year, according to JD Power."

you link this article right after you say:

"there is no issue of cost with modern manuals you stupid monkey. They cost either the same, or just a few pennies more."

hahahahahaha, what a clown you are

 @irafd: just checked astra pricing.. for the same spec model the monthly payment is different by 15eur.. for yaris it is 12eur.. the vast majority of people who want an automatic will not be deterred by that.. for many other brands there is no price difference at all, it is just a free option.. plus all the hybrids market which is automatic only.. old preconceptions about autos that you had from 5 years ago, or from the time you “grew up in europe” (hilarious) are completely outdated and irrelevant.. today, people who buy a manual do it because they WANT a manual, not because they are counting each euro or cent… and the share of such people in europe is much higher, at least for the near future..

Go maybe do some work, so you could afford a proper house thats not made of cardboard, or earn some money to visit europe and learn something new about the world.

 @GZMS: hahaha, 15 euro difference on what, 20 year loan?

just fyi, i make more than you ever will, and buy brand new cars exclusively. i just bought a brand new 2024 xc90, like two weeks ago, paid cash, so don't you worry about me.

i bet you live in russia or ukraine or romania or some other shithole and the only decent car you've been in is some used piece of shit imported from the west.

 @irafd: 15 euro difference on a standard 5 year plan, it is obvious to anyone who isnt a total dumbfck.

Bought new xc90 (designed in europe, because dumbfckistan cant make a proper car), but still lives in a cardboard box. Priorities.

 @GZMS: 15 euro a month is 900 price delta, and that doesn't even account for the interest rate. far from 5k+ difference from the official website. so, you're lying - you could be comparing a top spec manual vs cheapest automatic. doesn't even matter, i don't really care.

tells me everything i need to know about you when you're looking at a five year loan to buy a f*cking astra.

this dumbf*ckistan has more medical patents a year than the rest of the world combined, for instance. i'm pretty sure we can handle designing a car.

you really don't wanna go that route - so how come my car has an android auto infotainment? couldn't swedes come up with their own infotainment system (oh wait, they did, it was called sensus and people hated it), but they ended up using an american product.

do you see how pointless your argument is? next time you go to the doctor, or dentist, pay attention to how many GE or other US designed and manufactured equipment they use... you'll be humbled

my house is built to higher standards than yours, has AC on 24/7 in the summer time, and heating during the winter. it's built to last way after we're planning to move to another new house.

you probably live in a concrete bunker, stuck with a god knows how long loan, that you know your kids will have to continue paying off, but it helps you cope thinking our houses are somehow inferior...

 brilliant, whomever pitched that. "hey, bob's got a manual trans civic we can use. no, we neeeed to drive a classic 911 on the S2S for this analogy.to work."

 Just need to rotate that tach so the 6 is at the top.

 It was really hard to focus on what she was even saying in the first third of the video because I just kept staring at the car!

 Heres the specs for the fellow Porsche nerds:

1977 911S in Ice Green Metallic
3.0L engine from a 911SC
SC rear flared arches
Factory sports seats from a 3.2 carrera
Momo Prototipo wheel, what else
Numeric racing short shift kit and pedals
Some muffler shop one off exhaust thats almost too loud
The thing rips

 @tomivorrichards: and it’s name is George.

 Terrible marketing by Shimano. They show us how fantastic manual shifting in the 911 is, then try to sell us automatic shifting like you get in a Chevy Equinox.

 auto play brings in ad revenue from false views tho............

 keep your headest plugged in

 @naptime: That makes so much sense I'm embarrassed to only learn now.

 @naptime: The whole video is just an advertisement for Shimano disguised as "original content" from pinkbike. I want to know how much Shimano paid to get this kind of content.

 On Apple devices, you can disable auto-play across all websites or just Pinkbike.

 @Roost66: tell me more

 @speed10: At least on a Mac using Safari, it is, Safari > Preferences > Websites > Auto-play, then disable auto-play from all the websites you want and you are golden.

I'm sure Firefox and other browsers offer the same feature.

 Yep, Firefox too, both desktop and mobile:

Settings > Privacy and Security > Permissions > Auto play

 You can disable auto play in your pinkbike account settings.

 @warmerdamj: MVP

 @warmerdamj: this works. I just had to reload the site a few times. Appreciate the tip

 Low on the info, high on the mercial.

 I can't wait for ChatGPT to fix my flaws.... Looks like Canyon getting a head start with the steering thing.

 I hope Mike Levy's having a good day. . .

 @rrolly: where is Mike?

 I’m pretty sure both SRAM’s and Shimano‘s BA monkeys are already licking their lips thinking about electronic drivetrains that only work with a monthly subscription fee.

 @Ttimer: Drivetrains as a Service (DaaS)

 "Our seat post sensor has detected that you have increased in weight by 5% since your last ride. We adjusted your shifts and throttle to accommodate. REMINDER, you have 3 days left on your Shimano+ trial. Shimano+ will auto renew at $9.99/mo. going forward. That's not all! For $1.99 more you can add Strava+ and ensure your activities are promoted on other Stravidiots feeds to maximize your kudos."

 They should only cover stuff you’re interested in?
BTW..auto shift is BS.

 No, they should cover whatever they want. But they should do it independently of the company that makes the product they are covering.

 @Bobadeebob: Second that.

A journalist in the role of a presenter/actor for an advertisement is... creepy?

Yeah, that was the first feeling that struck me. Even though bike media has been stepping towards this point with various tech videos in recent years.

 @Quebracho: journalist? Presenter yes.

 @Bobadeebob: that’s fair.

 it's nice how they forget to mention that this is a sponsored video until the last third of the video.

 Dude. It’s never going to happen. Just get yourself a nice, low maintenance derailleur and enjoy.

 @TheR: or, @dsciulli19 can suck it up and get a HIGH DRAG GEARBOX with:
1. Non-universal mounting.
2. Unreasonable Weight.
3. Limited gear range
4. SHIFT WHILE PEDALING.

 @mi-bike: I’m happy enough with a simple derailleur, thanks!

 @TheR: Wishful thinking I suppose. I have a 1x10 bike and an GX Eagle bike and they are plenty decent. Which is why it annoys me that all this time and effort is being spent on "eLeCtRoNiC sHiFtInG" when it's not much better in the grand scheme of things. For some it's enough to justify the price of admission but for me, the average dad MTB rider, AXS and the like just don't add up.

Whoever figures out a gearbox good enough to spur widespread adoption will predictably win all the money.

 I could live without the shift while pedaling bit. At the moment I really back off when changing to reduce chain breaks anyway.

 1. Won't happen. Just look at the space requirements for gearboxes, it will always require something drastically different from a standard bottom bracket...
2. Define reasonable. Pinion is about 1.2 kg weight penalty (although removing unsprung mass). Gearboxes will never be super light, sprockets are generally a very weight efficient solution compared to gears.
3. Pinion and Effigear both have equal or bigger gear range than most 1x systems.
4. Might arguably be offset by being able to shift without turning the cranks. Cassettes don't like shifting under any higher loads either, but I'm sure it needs getting used to and it surely is a compromise. Apparently Pinions new motor-earbox combo can shift well under load, so maybe that will improve for other products too in the future.

Low drag - it's not actually a big penalty from all the numbers I can gather so far. Of course it won't be for XC- racers, but for an enduro kind of rider, it's not a big deal. You will always have to choose, can't have it all..

 @finnspin: you are right, but honestly, it's not even the design constraints. The problem is that there are no SLX/Deore, NX/SX lower priced gearbox options. What major bike company is going to design a bike that can't be sold at a lower price. Sure they can sell an S-Works level bike but for every $10,000 bike sold, I bet there are 20 $3,000 bikes sold.

 @finnspin: Some thoughts:

2. Reasonable = whatever weight penalty that makes opting for a gearbox not seem like a "niche" option. I don't know what that number is but in order for widespread adoption of the gearbox they have to get the weight dialed in to where the perceived "penalty" can be reasoned away by the benefits of the gearbox by the majority of purchasers.
3. I'd be happy with a pinion gearbox's range as well, just wanted to include that as a requirement.
4. I don't care about shifting under load per se, I just don't want to have to stop the cranks to make a shift, especially while climbing. I try not to shift like a knucklehead and I think that's a reasonable (there's that word again) expectation for a moderately skilled rider, so if the "Shimano SLX budget gearbox" of the future can shift well with the rider backing off of the power for a split second similar to what we do today I'd be happy.

Drag: From all the reviews I've read, the author has stated that the drag is noticeably worse than a normal drivetrain. I'd love to try it myself and develop a more informed opinion but I haven't had the chance to try a gearbox bike.

 They’re going to solve the gearbox limitations by putting motors in them. I predicted this years ago and it’s now come out.

 FWIW most race cars use some variation of a sequential dogbox, which is mechanically most similar to a normal manual and includes user selected gears and user operated clutch

 That might be true if I rode a moped, but I'm a bicyclist. So, no...

 @danger13: This Shimano drivetrain also only applies to e-bikes, so they're targeting the same group. That said, I don't think the Pinion system auto-shifts yet, so they're a little behind in that regard. If they can make the Pinion offer the same auto-shifting options that this Shimano setup does, they'll be miles ahead.

 The video, the product or both? I’m leaning toward both.

 @TheR: LOL, didn't watch the video. Just my initial reaction to the concept, which I knew was inevitably coming, but that somehow didn't mitigate the instantaneous nausea.

 @mammal: I guess my mind isn’t closed to the idea, but I’m having a hard time seeing how it could ever work in practical application, especially on trail. Then there’s the whole thing of introducing a needless, potential headache into something that is really so simple.

 @TheR: My reaction is partly due to being a full-mechanical-bike purist, but I agree,I don't understand how it would be practical in a lot of regular-occurring mountain bike scenarios.

 self energising maybe? old enough to remember self energising brakes? there was an auto mech that worked quite similar back in the day........... I don't think it caught on :'D

 @naptime: or the mini generators you could apply to your wheel when you wanted your headlamp at night.

 @nickfranko: the system I saw used zero electricity all old fashioned springs an gears

 If you run a freewheel on your crank and non on your hub you can shift without pedaling so long as your bike is moving.

 Solar panels on your helmet.

 Power meter, cadence and wheel speed could make for a fairly basic system that works on even terrain. The issue lies in tech terrain going up. At a minimum add an override button that makes it stay in the current gear.

 This is not meant for humans. It’s solely for electric motorbikes which can simply push through wrong gears with limitless torque.

 And those all sensors are a point of failure. Can you see Shimano supplying spare sensors with their track record of fully disposable brakes/motors/batteries/shifters...

 @Otago: denso or lukas will make the sensors. Just like the 100’s in every modern car.

 Same. Gets old quick.

 I’m ready for archibald cycles to get into production.

 So buy a pinion gearbox bike. I've riden one and I'll seriously think about it for my next bike. I don't even mind some maintenance, but none for my drivetrain here in the pacific northwest? That's entirely next level. Simply spray it with the hose, wash if needed and that's it.

 Transmission is the answer.

 @dkidd: LOL no it isn’t.

 @somebody-else: what bike(s) are you running it on, and what aspects of your ride experience led to this conclusion?
...because it sounds like you might be the first person who's actually used it and isn't into it.

 Amazing... never even thought of that as an option, but I guess for someone who hasn't learned how to shift properly, it might be easier to change assist modes, haha. Perfect example of people using something in a completely different manner than it was designed for.

 A lighter mechanical group than XTR? Why?

 @vinay: make XTR trickle down. Deore is dope but heavy

 @ridedigrepeat: Is there anything in particular from the XTR that you'd like to see trickle down? I see the weight saving being due to

1. more extensive machining. Takes time and tool wear, hence money.

2. lighter materials at the expense of cost. Like titanium sprockets instead of steel, which makes it a more expensive option both because of material costs as well as tooling costs.

3. lighter materials at the expense of durability. Like aluminum bigger sprockets. Which do save rotating mass but also won't last as long. The racer might not care whether a part lasts a full season if the opponent wins on a part that only lasts a few races.

4. more advanced production process. Hollow forged cranks come to mind.

Obviously one can always mix and match to compromise or reach targets instead wherever you feel fit. In that sense I think it makes a lot of sense that parts from the Deore groupset are different from the XTR ones. It allows you to make choices and I think many also approach it as such.

 @ridedigrepeat: cheap, light, strong..pick two.

 Hey now Surrons look like mad fun

 SRAM - "we're gonna make a derailleur that's completely wireless, insanely tough, easy to install and fully rebuildable to save consumers time and money. Also it's based on a system we designed and gave away for free that actually creates a standard for derailleur hangers. Oh, and last thing, it's gonna be cheaper than the current stuff."

Shimano - "we're going to make a drivetrain that shifts for you"

The internet - "looks the same to me"

 Hence the 10-minute hype advertisement for a Shimano product.

 @TheR: Pinkbike originals = advert. Gotcha.

 @markb2392: Regardless of how it’s labeled, what else would you call it? Pretty thinly veiled content for a prominent advertiser. It was horrid.

 Cheers, I'm glad someone noticed. Took us probably 25+ takes to get those shots!

 Has been for about 9 yrs now too. Like the new insta for joejoe’s