Here's My Zerode Taniwha Test Bike - Tell Me What You Want to Know

 Is it "playful?"

Does it climb like a [agile animal] and descend like a [fierce/mythical animal]?

Will it make me see my local trails in a whole new light?

Are any noted issues due to it being a pre-production sample?

 Will this bike provide the competitive advantage to beat Richie Rude in an upcoming EWS event?

 So it is 34lbs, but how much does it feel like it weighs with more centralized weight.

 Can you send it to my house please

 is the weight and the extra inefficiency worth the experience?

 So reading the previous article do you think these are valid statements.

"Thanks to the gearbox and the constant chain position, the Taniwha achieves 'the ideal' amount of anti-squat throughout the bike's 160mm of travel."

" No gears at the rear means a lower unsprung mass for better suspension response"

Does it feel different pedalling? Gearboxs are supposedly more inefficient - can you tell?

How long does it take to unlearn habits from a derailleur system?

 wow when Waki gets mentioned in an actual article, you know he has reached rock star status!

 All about the shifting, man. Is it as terrible as it is made out to be, or is it a simple "stop pedalling, shift, pedal" type of affair. Also, what are plans for electronic shifting?

 The biggest argument these have going against them besides not being as effiecient as a tradition derailluer/chain setup, is that you can't shift under load. Would love for you to explain this a bit more, maybe even with a video. Can there be no torque at all while trying to shift? Or do you just need to back off, shift, then get back to grinding up hill? Kinda curious to know what the limitations are when shifting.

Also, I still don't really understand how they haven't developed a trigger shifter for gear boxes, don't think I could ever get along with the inconvenience of a twist shift.

 @mikelevy - it's a not-light 160mm trail/enduro bike. Let's assume that what stands between it and a more reasonable price tag would just be economies of scale - so then the question is whether there's something special enough about this bike that would justify enough people buying it to where it could ever get there. Meaning, the question is not whether it's worth an extra $3k (back of the envelope, comparing this frame/suspension/drivetrain package to something like a Bronson or Nomad or Patrol Carbon frame plus the cost of a drivetrain), but whether it can honestly compete with those sort of bikes (and then the numbers will sort themselves out). As in, if it were more expensive only by, say, a few hundred dollars (which is what you'd spend on derailleurs and maintenance time over the lifespan of the thing), would you buy it because it rides as well or better than those bikes, given the typical use of a long legged 27.5 trail/enduro bike.

So do a comparison - three riders, three bikes. Pit it against other bikes in the same genre that aren't necessarily supposed to be mountain goats, and that are well known and well respected benchmarks. Pass the bikes around. Maybe use a power meter to see how much this thing does or doesn't impact what it takes to get up fire roads, then do the same thing on climb trails. That will address the whole efficiency thing. Then run shuttle laps on something appropriate to a bike like this, and figure out how it's doing there. Is it playful, monster-trucky, or something in between? Is there anything it does noticeably better than the benchmark bikes? Is there anything it does noticeably worse?

Shoot a metric shit-ton of video showing the same rider on all three bikes over the same features. Something like a sweeping corner; something like a nasty rock garden; something like a steep/loose/freeridey descent; something like a rock roll. Digest how it handles differently by having the riders look at the video and explain to us how it shows what they were feeling when riding. No need to run timed laps - this isn't a race bike, and won't be used by enduro racers necessarily but by people who just like a good aggressive trail bike. Oh, and once the three well-matched (for weight/size/style/skill) riders are done drawing their conclusions, give it to someone of equal height who's more of a light-weight finesse rider, and then to someone of equal height who's more of a heavyweight power rider and see what they have to say that would further inform the big picture.

There's probably something along the lines of five or six full-on front page posts in this, because it goes way beyond just a review or test. Go crazy with this - if you do this right, it may become some of the most referenced and read content ever on PB.

 This is a really nice new approach to the review process; much appreciated!

 As a guy who has probably ridden countless new bikes, can you comment on the relatively high weight of this thing? Maybe compare climbing effort to other bikes in this travel & cost($) bracket?

 Will you place an order for one when you return the test bike? If not, why?

 when you say no drivechain maintenance .... they say that about Rohloff, but we all know you have oil changes and chain/cassette/sprocket wear ..

So whats the honest maintenance on the Pinion?

 How does it feel/act when you make shifts under full pedal power?

 The thing that I'm not particularly into is the engagement. Even with something awesome like a Project 321 rear hub, the engagement lag with the gearbox makes it feel like it has something like 15º jumps in pawls.

Mike, did you find this to be a problem on the trail?

 how have your general feelings toward deraillers developed? Do you feel like a dirty dirty cheater, with all that newly freed up unsprung weight in the rear, ready to be ridden hard and put away wet, with no lube, in the back door... of your garage

Do you find yourself looking down on other trail users for their plebian drivetrains? Why or Why not?

Does it come in rootbeer?

 Efficiency. It's kinda the elephant in the room with gearbox bikes and probable higher drivetrain losses. Is it noticeable? Measurable? Along with the additional weight, does it significantly detract from the enjoyment of riding this as an everyday trail bike?

 Can you find any way to measure efficiency from the pedals to the back wheel and compare it to a 1x system as Pinion just won't answer that question?
If you could fit a power meter somehow it would be a relatively simple procedure...

 Sweet rig @mikelevy, looking forward to the full review. My questions would be:

-how much drag is really present during pedaling and has it lessened over the course of the test period? Simply: tolerable and worth it for the advantages, irritating and something one needs to look past to enjoy the advantages, or deal breaker.

-how much improvement in tracking, handling, and cornering does the lowering and centralizing of mass, by the reassignment of components normally located at the end of the rear swing arm, actually provide?

-similarly, how much does that reassignment of mass from the end of the rear swing arm to the center of the bike affect the suspension in regards to traction in all aspects (sprinting both seated and standing, climbing, descending, cornering, high speed chatter, and big hits) as well as "feel", and how one approaches tuning?

Super stoked that you're getting the chance to bring this review to all of us, enjoy the ride, I hope it's what all of us are hoping it will be! Cheers man- C

 My two cents after a year of riding a Taniwha: Downhill, the back wheel tracks the ground better than any other bike I've ridden. Technical uphill is great too; the rear wheel soaks up the bumps, the gear range is ridiculously huge, and there is no bob when climbing out of the saddle. Where I struggle is in twisty, flat, cross-country tracks; it does not accelerate out of a corner like a singlespeed hardtail. Momentum is lost fairly quickly when going from downhill to uphill,which is probably due to bike weight. The gearbox and grip-shift is a non-issue once you get used to it. There is no noticeable drag from the gearbox once it is run in, and that seems to happen after a couple of hundred kilometres. Plus it's a good-looking bike, low maintenance and so quiet.

 This is what I honestly want to know:

How many derailleurs have you killed in the last 2 years? Considering that, is the trade-off for drivetrain drag and begin forced to use grip shift worth it?

If yes, should I wait for the "Superboost Plus / 157 trail / my schwartz is bigger than your's" version?

 How does it hold up if you have to bail during a backflip?

Does the gearbox make it easier to find the pedals after a superman seatgrab?

Does the weight distribution make it harder to do a table?

Will it work with a freecoaster?

 Why do you think gearboxes are still not mainstream? It is because:

- some kind of conservatism/disbelief in our community
- lack of cheaper gearbox bikes generates low interest among bikers
- conspiracy of big brands
- or there are some serious disadvantages of this setup? (though I read only amazing reviews on Taniwha)

Thanks!

 Are there any plans by pinion or any other company to make a compatible trigger shifter? Could the ergonomics of the gripshifter be improved or do patents prevent that? What is the actual maintaince and service intervals? Obviously the efficiency of the drivetrain is reduced, but how noticeable is it really? Can we get a number to quantify this? For example, it is somewhat noticeable on a road bike, riding on smooth roads, when you’re feeling good, if a bikes drivetrain isn’t as efcient as it could be- but it’s not always a deal breaker. Or put another way, is the difference like riding an aluminum frame vs a carbon frame? Night/day kind of thing. What does it feel like climbing? My Santa Cruz is 2lbs heavier than my Jamis, but the SC’s pedalling efficiency is wayyy better when climbing thanks to the anti-squat numbers. So much so that I never lock out my SC rear shock. Does this bike’s high level of anti-squat negate some of the inherent drag inefficiency of the gearbox? Shifting under load is never ideal, how big is the penalty for error? I’ve torn teeth off my SRAM cassette, folded a cog, and seen plenty of other people do the same when making a boneheaded shift under load while bonking. Especially on the east coast steeps. Sometimes SRAM will warranty it, sometimes not and that’s an expensive mistake. How likely is damage to the pinion’s internals doing the same thing? How expensive are those parts? Can you replace individual cogs? Does it have to be sent back for that kind of service or is it simple enough for the local LBS to repair? What about running a belt drive? Does that add drag? How limiting is the gearbox for suspension/frame designers or is it less limiting?

 @mikelevy Please try to figure out if you can become better at panic shifts on sudden uphills. I had absolute failure coming around say, a sharp turn to an uphill, where you have to dump several gears and still pedal to keep your balance and deadened momentum. Once a gear got lower than 4, I couldn't get it to go to 3, 2 or 1 and would get stood up vertically, balancing with all my force pushing through the pedals, no way to "release tension" or backpedal to unload the tranny for it to do the shifts.
When I did have a bit more time, there would be monster tension at the shifter and I'd ease off and then accidentally skip too low by a gear or two.

Let me know if you find that ZEN shift moment with this bike. I could not and it frustrated me to no end. Sure, a regular tranny can fight you a bit, but never at the shifter like this does. And it will eventually shift.

 Mike, I think by far the most prudent question is this one - what is the one thing that needs to be improved on to make this more desirable to regular non derailleur hating riders? IMO, the top 3 would be:
1. Trigger shifter (cmon Pinion!)
2. POE on the box itself
3. Shifting under load
Can't wait for the review!

 How does the gearbox FEEL and SOUND? Is there any sense of increased drag? Does it feel different in some gears compared to others?

Can you time some climbs (and decents) and compare against a derailleur equipped enduro bike of similar price and design?

Any word on electronic shifting for Pinion to ditch the grip shift and dual-cable setup?

 @mikelevy
Given the option - would you rather:
A: Buy the Taniwha and stay riding at home
B: Keep your 'current' bike and spend the money to go and ride in New Zealand for a couple of months ?

NB: Say your current bike was a 2015 SB6c or something higher end for comparison... coughmysituationcough

 So, I have ridden this bike on a demo before with Cycle Monkey and I was really impressed by it. The bike did have a slightly heavier feel when ridden up a hill but the range of gears really made up for the difference in weight. I also noticed pedaling was not too bad because of the weight distribution of the gear box, it was fairly even and did not make pedaling with power feel awkward.

Now, where I think this bike really excels is descending. It felt amazing and dialed when I pointed it downhill because of the extra weight centered in the gearbox (along with geometry and etc). The bike tracked over rock gardens, root sections, and through corners exceptionally well. Due to what I mentioned above about weight I wouldn't want this bike as my designated trail bike but as a shuttle bike or even park bike it would be sick. I was also real impressed by the Helm fork mounted to the front, it felt way better than my Pike.

The bike I rode was setup with a chain to drive the rear wheel. I did not like the way the chain felt in comparison the the belt drivetrain I pedaled around the parking lot. I actually managed to drop chain once on the bike which was strange to me and the guys from Cycle Monkey. If I bought the bike I would make sure it was belt driven.

 This is a separated question/request for tester, one purely on Pinion drive, the other on Taniwha.

First: I have ridden one. The problem is, I have ridden it on a short test track, not on my local trails. First impressions: planted when you want it to be and happy to pop in the air when you want it The shit.

Pinion :
Problem I noticed was my shifting habits, so here goes: I noticed that I would have to address the way I shift. No power on pedals for split second to make a shift and than back on it. Instead I went for it on steep climb and had to dismount, since the drive would not shift under load.
Another thing- POOR engagement. I believe that pinion uses internals with 24 points of engagement. That would need an update with SPRAG clutch or similar instant engagement mechanism, which should be used in future.
Also, GRIPSHIFT- it is not the thing I want on my bike. When they manage to put some electric shifting on it, I will be all over it.

Taniwha : Not much to complain other that I would like to do some experimenting with different suspension setup. How is it if you run it firmer? How about with a bit faster/slower rebound. As I said, the thing was planted and easy to throw around, but I really need to spent some more time on it and on known trails.

Bottom line: it is on my long term buying list. When pinion sorts the little things (instant engagement, electric shifting) I am willing to give it a go. Gearbox on bike? YES PLEASE!

 How well does the linkage balance 'gearbox plushness' and pedalling efficiency?

 I have Zerode G2 and love it. But I only use it a few weeks a year. I also have a SB6c which is 'similar' to the taniwha. Will this be my next 'do it all' bike? Can you also do a side by side test with the new Deviate?

 Ok, I rode this exact bike at Outerbik in Moab....let me tell you about the ZCHOAD, suspension is awesome, gearbox creaked like you wouldnt believe.....gripshifter was so uncomfortable my hand hurt for three days after. When I brought it back to the booth I had a hard time saying anything positive. Suspension felt great. Whatever.

 Derailleur breakage argument aside (it's very overblown IMO, and I actually used to be a mechanic), is there a discernible advantage to a gearbox from an absolute ride feel and daily performance perspective?

 Curious to hear how the belt drive performs. I have one real life example of a belt drive system, installed on a Stache singlespeed, and regardless of belt tension, once in a great while the belt will skip a tooth under heavy load (torquing up a climb at low speed). This is due to flexing the frame/rear triangle
Also interested in how the drivetrain efficiency feels. I think a slightly different method for shifting is an acceptable thing, but adding significant drag when pedaling is not.

 I have a question more specific to the pinion gearbox than the whole bike. Do they need to be as heavy as they are? I know they are built for longevity and reliability but realistically your average rider of this bike probably isn't doing massive mileage or putting down huge power, how much lighter could they go and still remain more reliable than a traditional derailleur set up?

 How is climbing? The problem on Pinion is that you cant really shift with force on it. So you have to take a bit of pressure of the pedals to shift. I think thats a huge disadvantage!

The wear of the gripshift sucks. is there a tigger shifter available soon?

 In the event that there is an issue with the gear box internals, is there any hope of servicing it yourself? If not, what course of action did you take, and what was the outcome? Put another way, what is the service center situation stateside, and could you comment on turnaround time and cost?

 What about ripped off pants and/or shoe lace since the first pinions used to have the freewheel in the gearbox not the hub? Descending @ 60 km/h and worrying about something getting stuck in the belt seems like a nightmare waiting to happen....

 How do you say the name? Seriously

How bad is the drag?

Can you get used to stopping pedaling to shift?

Any news on a trigger shifter?

 The Pinion gearbox clearly has more range than a system based around a Shimano hub, such as your previous DH bikes, but the Shimano system appears to have better efficiency, is extremely compact, and could be lighter. Please walk us through the decision process and your thoughts on whether the Shimano-based system could return to viability, perhaps with greater range.

Thanks in advance to Rob and/or Ali!

 ...aaaaaand the trolls have been fed. Real Q: Obviously the influence of chains, and the unique aspects of using linked metal that needs to accommodate many sizes of gearing etc., has on suspension. I'm curious if you notice a difference in how responsive the suspension is with that setup. Obviously there is a weight penalty with the gear box... do you notice a different ride with all that weight down?

 PEDAL BASED POWER METER COMPARISON

Baseline -- Zerode, constant 15mph slight uphill (5% grade) = ___W
Comparison 1 -- Similar geometry bike with 11 or 12 speed setup (same tires, pressure, etc.), same course = ___W
Comparison 2 -- Same as #1 with bike weighted to same as Zerode = ___W

This should give us a good idea of the effect of drivetrain drag and weight.

Thanks!

 How does it feel with the weight centered and low and how does the rear suspension work with all the extra weight gone from the rear wheel.

(Sorry if someone else has mentioned it already - I didn't go through all the comments).

 Hi Mike, ride the wheels off that thing and do as many proper DH runs as you can - it will surprise you!
If you have the time and gear available, can you try as many brakes as you can for the best fit with the grip shift please?
I run moto style and so far the best fit i have found is a very old saint with the longer lever, so the grip shift is not fully under finger and thumb with the rubber cover bit trimmed down to be the same diameter as an ODI Troy Lee grip to be as close as possible to feeling like a normal full grip and works well so far.
I would be super keen to learn if there is a Hope or Magura set up that works similar or better comfortability wise?
PS: you will love the silence, airtime, line holding over roots, cornering and rock garden smashing!

 Can you *feel* the unsprung weight difference? does it ride any better? does it feel chainless? or are these all legends?

 the one question I am genuinely curious about with these is about weight.

1. is the weight a problem?
2. most pressing I think, do we really need 600% range? I currently run an 11-40 cassette. 360% range....I could see another gear getting used. maybe even 2. but 600% seems unnecessary, and I wonder specifically in the context of gearboxes if it could help get the weight down in a big way if they produced lets say a 450% range offering.

 As with any bike you can change it's characteristics using different parts and tuning (think air shock vs coil shock and open or close compression etc.). From the picture it seems you have a very good balanced setup of parts, not sure how they are tuned though. I would be interested to understand the suspension setup that you used for the review as it would play a lot into how it behaves (playful vs hugging the ground for instance).

Ride it in some really nasty conditions (weather permitting), which I'm sure you would have anyway, and let us know what the drive train does in those conditions.

Looking forward to your article.

 In case you will do hike-a-bike, is there an issue with the part of the cables between frame and gearbox? Do these cables contact your shoulder/neck and break?

From your standpoint - could a chain tensioner with only one pulley make sense as long it is designed in a way that the chain could not fall off of the pulley? The chain tensioner which is used for Gates belts has only one pulley.

 @mikelevy How do you get on with the "lag" in the gearbox? I have an old P18 and I feel that of all the things to improve this would be high on my list.
I don't notice it all the time but in those tricky slow situations where you just need a bit of a crank in to get you over something there can be a feeling of no drive. I know my box is old, just wondered if the P12 felt OK.
On a spin round the carpark on a Taniwha the box felt better than mine but it was brand new.
Looks like the old gearbox debate has fired everyone up again!!!

 Really interested in this bike, ever since it first came out.
I have a few questions.

Do you like it how zerode has stepped out of the box with different component choices? E.g cane creek helm+DBIL and magura brakes.

Is it fast?

I’ve heard that when you shift gear, you have to pause with your pedal stroke for a bit to let the gearbox get into gear. Is this true?

This bike or the Rocky Mountain slayer will be my next bike.(still deciding). My local trails are steepish, fast, technical, rutted out, and hard to climb. I also Race enduro and Downhill. If you have ridden or tested the Slayer, How do you think it compares?

Thanks in advence.
-cheers, Hugh.

 How is it with jumps?
I'd also like to know of any other similar bike projects out there, in particular ones that will cost less.
Are any of the big manufacturers likely to manufacture a bike with a gearbox within the next 5years or so?

 1-Is there electric shifting in the works?
2-Is there a plan for more wheel size options?
3-How many real world miles/kilometers did you put on the bike before you started having gearbox issues?
My next mountain bike will have a gearbox, unless your article has a very good reason not to give it a try.

 Can you really not shift under pressure, so must you stop pedaling on uphills to change gears? Will Pinion EVER come out with a Trigger shifter like say EffiGear have done.

 How about maintenance? do you just lube the chain and thats it? I know one of the supposed advantages of gearboxes is they requiere less maintenance but I Imagine at some point a drivetrain cleaning needs to happen. could you try it out? and let us know how easy or painful the experience is?

 Was there a discernible difference in the drivetrain when you gave it the inevitable "brake lever squeeze test" upon receiving the bike?

 @mikelevy Is the data proving that the lack of derailleur truly improves rear suspension performance, it all seems to be opinion and subjective. I hear the rear end feels 'dead'. Why focus on this due to such a high cost with nearly no increase in performance

 How well does it hold up to the grime and grit of trail riding? Heard from some local kids who work at Cane Creek, and who actually shred, that the suspension feels better than anything else they have ridden....you have ridden a lot of bikes, can you confirm?

 @mikelevy One main complaint against a gear box drive train is the increased drag the system inherently has. Does using an easier gear than you would with a derailleur system effectively negate this? I understand this wouldn't be a great solution going downhill but I can't imagine the drive train drag is as apparent going down as it is climbing. I also feel like due to the nature of a gear box you could make your gear range wide enough to cover both ends of the spectrum since you don't have to compromise on gear jump percentages.

 Is there a noticeable improvement in rear suspension performance compared to non-gear box bikes that you have ridden? I remember reading a review that claimed better performance in regard to another gear box bike. I wonder whether you can corroborate or debunk this claim.

 If you pedal backwards, can there be felt any drag from the gearbox?
...compared to the[almost] non-existent drag with conventional derailleur.

How easy/difficult it is to get used to the different shifting logic(no power on pedals when shifting) of the gearbox?

Is the bike practically dead silent(except for the freewheel maybe) as there is no chain slap or derailleur rattle?