Rampage Judge Darren Berrecloth Speaks Out On 2023 Event
*Editor's note: video transcript edited for clarity.
 | Well folks, it seems like there's a lot of controversy on how the judges came to the conclusions that they did. So I just felt like jumping on here and trying to shed some light on how myself and the rest of the judges came to the conclusions that we did. At the end of the day, I feel a lot of empathy for everyone that doesn't really understand how we come to that conclusion because the majority of people are watching on a two-dimensional screen. It's almost impossible for people that are not there to actually understand all of the intricacies of each line and why one line is actually harder than the other and how one line can be much more exposure than the other when you're watching on a screen. We've all heard how the screen never really shows things as they are, and it's even truer at an event like the Red Bull Rampage. Every single person that's watched it for years that finally gets their boots on the ground and walks up a Rampage venue, their eyes are just blown out of their sockets because they're just so amazed at how much bigger and gnarlier everything is in person rather than looking on a screen that they've been looking on for sometimes 10-15 years. With an event site like this, we know the site very well. I rode that venue, I have my own line there, I have a bunch of experience riding those ridges, sending it off the top and whatnot. We go and we look at everyone's lines, and we actually measure every single takeoff to landing, pretty much [all] of the bigger stuff is all measured, just so that we can cross-reference it to any of the other features. On top of that we look at what kind of exposure there is coming into the feature. Do they have to brake really hard? Do they have a really easy in-run with no exposure? How's the landing? Because sometimes the landings are really skinny, and there's a cliff on the side, like an actual wall on the high side, and then on the low side is a 50-foot cliff as well, right where you're landing. And then some landings are really manicured and buff, and you don't really have a lot of risk if you fall. So all these different factors go into how we judge a line. The hot topic right now is Bienve, and how his score was so low because everyone looks at the big features that prominently stick out in everyone's mind, and what everyone focuses on. So for Bienve's run, his upper portion of his line was one of the mellowest ways to get off the top, and he didn't have a lot of speed on it, so he was riding it fairly timidly. And then as soon as he got roughly around the halfway mark of his run, he really turned it up. He flipped off the step down onto the lily pad, which was rad, and then he went into his front flip over the canyon gap. At the end of the day, those three features [Editor's note: he forgot to mention the big three drop right above the lily pad flip, but is referencing it here as one of Bienve's three big moves.—Ed] were amazing, and they were over really big features. The canyon gap I believe is 72-73 ft, I'd have to check my notes, but tip to tip, it's one of the biggest. But keep in mind with that canyon gap, the sightlines are really good, you're looking at everything when you're coming into it, and everything's super buff and manicured. You have a nice mellow in-run, because you're coming off a drop. Obviously flipping into the lily pad is super nasty, but then he's got a really long run out into that, so he's got a lot of time to shut it down on the brakes if he doesn't want to hit it, and he's got a lot of time to check his speed and gauge how fast he's going. And then on the landing itself, the landing is super big and wide. It was one of the only features that the event actually pre-built for the riders just because it's such a prominent feature, and there's just no way that athletes can take on a build like that. And then after that, he goes into a couple of tricks down on the lower stuff. And I hope everyone knows that this is a big mountain freeride event. And when you do a bunch of tricks down low on dirt jump-style features, you're not going to get rewarded as well versus doing those big tricks up high on the mountain where there's exposure. This brings me to some of my other points. It is a big mountain freeride event and not a slope style event. If you are doing your tricks up high on the ridges where there's a ton of exposure, you're going to get rewarded very well. And that's was the case where athletes that were riding ridges that were skinny and had a ton of exposure they definitely got rewarded. Another topic with us judges that we talked about in great depth was the Battleship. Originally it was supposed to be Brendan and Gee [and Szymon.—Ed.] hitting that. Unfortunately, Gee took himself out in practice. And the Battleship was by far the biggest amount of exposure we've ever seen at a Rampage course. The feature itself was quite a mellow feature. If you didn't have any exposure and that little skipper onto the battleship was in the forest without any cliffs beside it, it would just be not a really nice jump or a little gap at all. The landing was like 8 inches tall, and it immediately went uphill. And that was due to the fact that the ridge was so skinny, and just how the actual feature was naturally, you couldn't really make it any better. So the actual feature itself was not that hard to ride. But at the end of the day, if you screwed up and all it got bounced off on either side, the consequences were so severe. So, us judges, we talked about it in great depth, like, "how do we judge this?" Because you really don't have that tough of a feature, but the fact that there's so much exposure makes it insanely scary. And you really can't take away anything from the athletes if they're putting themselves at so much exposure. So we had to judge that quite high, and Brendog really was rewarded for that, as one of the gnarliest features for exposure on the entire mountain. Flipping to Brendog's run, his canyon gap was, in our opinion, much gnarlier than the lower canyon gap that Bienve front flipped because the in-run coming in, which maybe not a lot of people actually saw, [Brendog's] in-run actually skipped over top of Brett Rheeder's old line, which made it twice, maybe even three times as hard. Literally where the compression would be, where you're pumping for the lip, he actually had to have a downhill takeoff with a not the greatest landing to land in. And then pump and pull off a very skinny lip to make it across this canyon. That was very technical, and once again, we rewarded him quite very high on his exposure level and his line choice. His trick score was not that high because he did a suicide over it. It's a pretty rad trick, but it's one of the go-to tricks if you just want to nibble off a trick off a drop or a big gap. His step-down flip definitely was a little tight and very technical, but it wasn't anywhere near the size of any of the other people's big flip step-downs. There was several of the guys doing big flip step-downs. Obviously, no one held a candle to Zink's step-down, which is still the biggest flip step-down in history on one of the biggest features ever hit in history. So, I could go into every single athlete and explain why, but I think for now this is just a recap of the two hot topics which it seems like in usual fashion, #brendoggotrobbed is usually a hashtag that gets thrown up quite often. And, obviously Bienve is a fan favorite 'cause he front flipped the canyon gap. That's amazing. It's rad. And a lot of people, even several family members, have asked me, "hey, how come Bienvenido didn't win?" You know, it's very simple to us because when you're looking at it on a screen, you just can't understand what we're looking at from the judge's opinion. And at the end of the day, I have a lifetime of experience riding this event as a competitor, and I also have a lot of experience judging this event. And you guys just really need to rely on myself and my other judges, our knowledge, and our skill of being in this industry, and understanding and spending so much time in these hills, and trust that we're going to get the best results that are possible. And you just have to trust us on that. I urge you to one day get some tickets and check it out for yourself. And I guarantee you, you would have a much bigger appreciation for some of these lines, and you may understand where we came from, and how we got to our decisions ultimately. So, anyways, hope that clears some things up. If not, keep on sending out all the hate mail. |
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But the judging part of it always is a spoiler. We can't all get there, we don't all know the area, so please explain it better. People just want to see what the judges see, or the judges to see what the people see, either would help.
Feelings are not facts and asking these PB fanboys to be objective is impossible. Its like PB got infested by Trump supporters denying the election. How about supporting EVERY person involved that makes this a reality, including the riders who win as well as those who don't? Having been at this venue for multiple years, including hiking around to the top, you have zero clue as to how crazy the top sections are or how deceiving cameras are showing some of these drops. They continue to risk their lives pushing this sport. What have you done?
The Claw is indeed the law.
I shall remain convinced of a conspiracy. haha
Regarding exposure, Semenuk's biggest tricks seem to be where the exposure was lowest and that didn't stop him winning in the past.
Maybe this should actually be judged on how it appears on 2D TV, since that's the objective of the show...
I'm also not comfortable with directly rewarding exposure because then you're saying that no matter how entertaining a run is, it can't win if the athlete didn't risk his life...
trust us bro ok, u guys dont know!
now im sure he knows what hes talking about but that's not exactly how you clear the air "trust us u guys sucks" never is a good line lol
And for Brendan - I love that guy. He would have placed 2nd with a 360 anywhere, but his line does have it - yet!
It is not mutually exclusive to say that 1) DB is correct and 2) Brendog (and now Bienve) got robbed. Mutliple things can be true at once. Brendog. Did infact. Get robbed. Thanks for being upfront with this.
But talk about risk, exposure & manicuring...that's those center lines these guys have been grooming for years... doesn't even look that raw any longer, it looks buffed out. Meanwhile, new riders are forced out to those "vanilla" lines where they have to traverse out to get to their near-death features so it seems Bienve was punished for that. Doesn't add up to me.
But I don't downvote you (or anyone) - I want to see it all, even if I don't agree. What it is though, is you sound like a whining little B instead of just treating yr rider cohorts here like equals. I've been riding for 33 yrs and you've insulted me directly & personally here many times, as if we know each other or as if haven't seen 33 yrs worth of bikes, gear, trails, fads ideas or thought about anything. I dont' even care - this is just words on a screen but its the vibe you give off: its just not how you get points across or make friends.
Drop all the accusations & finger pointing and your deas are better made & shared.
The carpet doesn't match the drapes here - Cam scores 15 full points over Bienve's make-it-or-you-die canyon front flip...twice? That level of chest hair just doesn't grow on me or anyone I know and all respect to the judges and Cam - that backflip was insane, but nothing we've not seen before. Visually it looks like every other back he's ever doen there on over-pimped lines.
Def the PB Comment Rampage Downvote King. The fans have spoken...
They need to improve the the judging drastically. Every year some riders do not get the score they deserve. BUT this year was exceptionally bad.
#brendoggotrobbed
Clueless
Gapers
Ignorant
Kids
Fanboys
Jackass
Dummies
Others must be doing something right since you are mudslinging as well.
I bet this would solve the problem and more fans and riders would feel the same. Plus it would change the level of the game...RBR is one of the only judging events i believe where everyone uses a different course / line etc.,etc.. Making the judging way more difficult than it should be and less accurate, as we have witnessed every single year.
Don't agree with the judges? That doesn't make you special. Claw was decent enough to explain the rationale, and guess what? He's better than you, he has more experience than you, and he HAS ACTUALLY RIDDEN THIS TERRAIN in competition, also unlike you. So to the haters out there: just enjoy Rampage for what it is. It's sick, it's awesome, it's only once a year. Yeah maybe some riders didn't get their due, but basing your whole yearly salary and professional worth on this singular event is a tenuous career plan at best. So maybe I don't agree with ST's tone, but he has a point. If the kooks take over the sport, the sport get's ruined. Maybe show some humility and learn from athletes, like Claw, who are better than you.
Watching the 2013 run, I think he would probably have only scored 10th or lower if did it this year. In 2013, he had a sort of technical line at the top, but had a very mellow (for today's standards) line the rest of the way down, with only a few small jumps, except for the big oakley sender. This year, they added many more big jumps/drops compared to 2013. And back then the oakley sender had a much easier run in compared to what they did this year. This year, it was bigger and way more technical in that to get the speed perfect for it, he had to stomp a big step down and a huge step up just before it. His top section this year was way gnarlier than 2013 and was one of the most technical and crazy lines off the top (Brendan's battleship was certainly the scariest though).
-clueless people
-PB fanboys
-school kids
-gapers
-clueless douches
-clueless gapers x 3
-clueless fanboys
-clueless clowns
-as classless as they are clueless
-And you types are the problem
-you kids
-buddy
-boy
-pathetic
-casual fans with little understanding
-ignorant children
-you dummies x 2
-yall dense
-you fanboys are so ignorant
-You're all whack
-Some kids
-severe cases of ignoramous gaperporius
-these idiots
-bandwagon hopping gaper
-clowns
-you guys are so ignorant
-You're a jackass
-armchair whiners
-you're so friggen ignorant
-You and your like-minded ilk
-efff offff you pussieeeesssss
Slab track at Dyfi had some gnarly stuff in it, especially as it was raining/sleet. Trespasser was a blast back in the day too when I used to ride out there.
Brendogs battleship was an option for so many riders but they passed it by.
Zink repeated a trick on a purpose built feature from year ago, all be it with a different lip. It was crazy rad and zink is a legend but it didn't hold up against the battleship and the canton gap.
Hopefully the claw will be up the hill showing us how basic the battleship was, maybe be will 3 off it too.
Hahahahahahahaha Your belief that you might know more is all we need to know about you insufferable, ignorant a*sholes.
I recon I could ride the last few meters to the gate at the bottom.
But as the claw has never done a front flip in completion or ridden the battleship he has no clue either by your way of thinking.
I get it now ... they voted for folk within their "clue" limit, as they couldn't ride Brendogs line they had no clue. They couldn't judge it because they are clueless. Only Brendog would ride that line so only Brendog could score his line
In Scotland we have a saying for your theory.... "Utter pish"
I think the Claw was pretty clear about that in his explanation (only riders would could totally unplung their brain regarding the exposure were riding it).
whatchu on boii?
I am sure that riders could have asked to use the battleship feature if they so desired, one used the take off but didnt build it.... (nobody else took that riskier line, high up the mountain where its more exposed).
Just because something is 60ft doesnt make it risky, a 10ft drop onto a spine, off an unmanicured take off thats blind could be more risky.
The battleship was simple apart from that it wasnt simple due to the exposure, risk, narrowness of the landing, the run into it and the run off it, potential for a side wind, the distance from the previous small air and the small take off.... I am sure Brendog could ride the 60ft step down all day with ease, back flip it... probably not (lets just say he couldnt as he is an racer still and youtuber). You could easily argue that most features on Hardline are harder than that stepdown (every rider completing hardline would have no issues riding the step down, squashing it and riding it at race pace too).
Gee demonstrated what a crazy gnarly step down is, as did Brage last year, both of them pushing beyond the risk limit and paying the price. Brages wooden step down is way more gnarly. The game has moved on in the last 10 years with a few riders pushing the limits to a completely different level (probably too far, the consequences for these risks have been felt by those riders!).
Zink played it safe on his run, he did say he wanted to do a combo trick off that trickable stepdown but pulled out of the move (was it a thought only that was never gonna come off... we will never know).
I hope that Zink turns up to Hardline or Darkfest or even a "slopestyle event" to show the world that he isnt just Rampage with his mates scoring. (yeh yeh, that sounds like I am bashing Zink, the guys is an absolute legend and has done some crazy massive jumps, paid the price with some gnarly crashes and is now on the retirement path with his family)
Zink was at Darkfest, I think in 22. He also used to do all the Crankworx slope stuff when he was younger.
The biggest take away for me, as gnarly as that flip was, especially after reading the account from the judge talking about how important exposure is.... didn't see much of that on his run. Short of the flip, it was actually pretty boring. Perhaps a better candidate for best trick and not a winning run. Storch and TVS both had pretty vanilla runs also. great style and flow, but no exposure. Then, the elephant in the room.... Emil gets 7th with a similar run that Rheeder won with last year. not enough people talking about that. Not saying he should have won, but there was stark difference in the scores they each recieved.
I will say, I believe a few things were said in order not to try and claim a win or better score, due to the fact it would not look good to sponsors and his image but truly has opposite feelings; judging by the expressions of each of them.
.
And if originality and line choice supposedly score big, as Bearclaw says, HELLO!!! Brendog had a completely new, unique line that nobody else touched and was the only rider to use the battleship and complete their run.
It's such a shame that Godziek and Kaudela didn't get their runs done because they were supposedly very original too (and both rode the ship) and that could have given us a better picture of where/how that would score. As it is Brendog had far and away the most creative line choice.
Seems to me that being North American gives you an automatic +5 score at Rampage. McGazza is the only guy to get the respect due for a canyon gap vs. a drop... and he still finished 2nd. I think the judges do a tough job pretty well in general, but - correct me if I'm wrong - all 5 are N. American. Every year. Unconscious bias?
#brendogwasrobbed
I totally agree that the judges expectations based on rumors during the lead up to the event impact the scoring... so to me they probably should stay away from the riders and gossip in the lead-up to the event.
Not mentioned is how they docked Brendan for not having a flip variation on his 2nd flip a bit too harshly, and under scoring the first solid run of the show.
100% #brendoggotrobbed
It was rad to see TVS fully back to good health for this event. But I do compare his run to Semenuk last year. And Semenuk's 2nd major feature was insanely exposed for bronze. TVS rode strong but silver was a gift this year. Carson... did a huge 3.
Bienve won the crowd, and that was cool. His big 3 features were the best because he kept linking from there too. He will nail the top section next year!
Replying to whining fans didn’t sway any of them and only made it look like it bothered the judges that people though they were wrong… You need to have thick skin and a short memory to be a judge, referee, umpire etc…
The judging categories are:
1. Difficulty (danger, I guess)
2. Amplitude
3. Control
4. Fluidity, Tricks and Style
Just comparing Zink to Brendog - both of whom laid down epic runs - Zink's drop in line vs the battleship score comparably on difficulty; Zinks hits on average outscored on amplitude; both had great control with Zink's only obvious bobble being the flip slightly off line and Brendog had some sniper precision in his line too; both had great style, the flip drop is more technical than the sui as far as the run bangers and I'd have to argue more top-to-bottom fluidity at a higher speed. I think the point spread makes it seem like more of a gap than people will accept.
Storch and TVS? Again, top to bottom flow, more tricks on consistently large features, the caveman was high technicality and the oppo tricks score for both difficulty and tricks/style.
So yeah, at the time it didn't feel right but the results, in rank order, aren't that far off. I just think if the scores for 1-4 were in the 92-86 range people would be less annoyed.
Cam was scored a full 15 points lower than Cam. All respect to Cam too - it was a thriller, but 15 full points more than Bienve? Doesn't compute at all.
And also #brendoggotrobbed
Just saying - the real canyon gap is the difference in what judges give and what fans are seeing...and when that has to be explained over & over, there's a problem w/ the judging, in my view.
Bienve scoring a full 15 below Cam when Bienve's move made anyone watching grow hair on their chest? Purely insane - the consequences of failure was death. Nothing in Cam's run looked death defying, just looked like another run (and granted I couldn't do any of it). Just saying what we're seeing & how judges score doesn't look like we're watching the same thing.
You can put an IF to every rider. No one is saying Cam did nothing special. It is just that Bienve did a world first. And many (including myself) think that Brendog's run was more exposed. DB can long talk about how minor this battle ship gap jump was, maybe, but the consequences of this feature where lethal. And things like this play a huge roll in doing it. You would also easily balance on the curb of a sidewalk, but would you do it on a multi-storey building? Hence this is consequences and this has to be rewarded.
Then DB talks about the well “paved” run in and out of Bienve’s canyon gap. I agree to this, but for what I have seen, this also applies for Cam’s step down. So again Brendog’s canyon gap was the most exposed of the three main jumps. The run in is just insane. Rumour has it, that many riders did not believe the Brendog canyon gap was possible to ride nor do they dare to jump it. But it is only 4th place? And then the minor difference between Carson and Brendog, just looks very staged, given the bandwidth of points for all riders given this year.
The questions DB did not answer:
- Why did Bienve’s run score so low because of the very well shaped feature but Brendog was not rewarded if this is a criterion for the judges? (Also Cam’s step down is very well shaped)
- Why did Bienve’s second run (the one he finished) only get 0.61 points more than his first run.
- What exactly gave Carson 0.34 points more over Brendog?
- The same goes for Kyle, why did he get 0.75 over Emil?
Things like this lead to suspicions about favouring individuals, bias against non North Americans or against riders sponsored by other energy-drinks.
Brendog as 3 main hits in his run : Battleship, Canyon gap, Step down, they're not linked with very steep or exposed terrain, as opposed to Zink that basically dive in the center of the face. His entrance, double drop and Oakley sender are all linked with very steep terrain and big gaps.
Please do not make me say what I don't : Brendog's line stays one of the most extreme lines at rampage.
Regarding your questions, I think here is a few thoughts to reflect on :
1- Cam Zink step down is very well shaped because otherwise it would be impossible to jump succesfully. That being said, the run in is extremely technical (big step down to big step up, blind take off), and he has to turn slightly right before jumping the Oakley sender, which makes it a very technical move. Let alone the landing, which as to be snipped (if you don't, consequences are very severe, let alone the fact that he flips it). Therefore the run in to Cam's oakley sender is way more difficult to approach than Bienve's canyon gap.
Without tricks, Bienve's line rank probably in the least diffcult, while Cam's line rank in the most diffcult.
2-3-4- As said many time, the points don't matter that much, but the ranking position is more important. If the judges believe that the overall run doesn't match the riders run ranking above it, it will not progress that much if the scorings are tight to keep the ranking position right.
Bienve second run is the same as the first one, but cleaner, and he doesn't throw the bike away on the last jump, so not much points are gained.
Carson as more technical tricks in his line, I believe the judges here were waiting for Brendog to spice his line a bit more to go for 2 or 3rd place (which he would probably have, flipping the canyon gap for exemple). Looking at the tight scoring between TVS, Storch and Brendog, all three could have and up 2nd, 3rd or 4th depending on their commitment to their lines.
Emil got probably a "mellowish" line, while Kyle had a more engaging line. The freeride nature of Kyle's line put him in front, but the technicality of Emil doing his tricks was almost enough to match Strait's run. He woul've probably bested him if he didn't throw it away on the last hip.
World 1st canyon front - twice -with a gust of wind or messup being death? That's a solid 8th place to me - and the second run should only get one more point that the 1st run. Just. Doesn't. Compute.
You cant, I imagine caveman off a smaller drop, much less one into the abyss that TVS does....
You can have an opinion, but dont get upset when its called out as silly.
The fact that you went the year thinking that Semenuks caveman wasnt earth shattering is a testament to how far away from reality youve gotten....
Still think a whip cave man woulda broke the internet though.
I might be feeling spicy today
Thats some pretty weak justification there @failed
Brendan and team are master marketers with their Youtube content and obviously won a lot of people over with that, but those people aren't being objective past that fact, and have more bias than the judges at this point
Using the same venue for multiple years, means that the riders/diggers have to look for newer and unridden features.
Time, availability, course selection, trick ability, all these factor in to why something might not be used one year, then several years later becomes a feature, simply because the rest of the lines are already fairly dialed and ready to use
Oh, this should go over well.
Do people need the claw to come sit next to them and explain everything like they're 5 so they dont feel sad that someone got scored too low?
more so what "they" need is to have their own opinions and beliefs validated and told they are special.
If everyone is riding nearly the same terrain, wouldnt the line that still "looks" the gnarliest be the gnarlisest?
We are comparing people all riding at virtually the same time, on nearly identical terrain. We arent watching a video segments from all sorts of different people at different times, in different locations....
I'm of the belief that Zinks flip off that Icon sender was absolutely huge, and maybe one of the biggest scene in a competition. Similar to Lemonies huge gap at Crankworks
- nobody will pay attention or listen, because they werent going to anyway.
- armchair quaterbacks will still be mad even if they listened.
- oh, and whoever really gets upset.... get a fckng job FFS
I can only assume you went several times when it was free, and now the cost of entry is whats holding you back, not the cost to get there, stay there, travel to and from the venue, etc?
What do you think pays for medical coverage, food service, logistics, prizes etc?
You wont go if its free, anything and everything is a barrier to entry for you
This sentence has me all frigged up, do I need some sleep?
"There’s absolutely NO way he CAN'T talk his way out of NOT putting Brendon on at least the podium"
I....I'm not getting it, am I crazy, what are you saying here bruv?
You understood who i meant right?
Frankly, Darren, Pinkbike, Redbull and everyone else involved shouldn't bother giving these idiots attention they don't deserve, really they should just do what all 90's dads did, tell the whining kids to shut up and go mow the lawn.... then make them some hamburger helper cause mom took too many Xanax's again.
News alert: you have no right to demand anything. If you don’t like it, do a hard pass next year. This is not your gig. You are an invited guest.
As I've been rambling here, I think the main problem is that what fans are seeing on the ground and on TV doesn't seem close to judges scoring anymore - it looks confusing. It never looked this far apart until the past 4-5 years (and I've watched every Rampage and 3 of them live).
So sure - Cam wins. Great run but Bienve scores 15 full points below (?). This doesn't even compute w/ DB's statement. Clearly judges are ballers & do know 99% of things we don't but the gap in their scoring with our viewing now looks fishy and I'll wager that if Bren & Bienve's scores were even close to Cam's vs wildlife far away from them (for what looked like a typical Cam run I've seen 5 times already) - there'd be less head scratching over the judging.
Still, I think the fans spoke loud and clear, almost 10,000 votes on pink bike alone for Bren & Bien and sure, thats just us but it still speaks volumes to what was witnessed.
Heres what I quickly found, full disclosure, I didnt go too deep. Peak viewership of 2022, 57k.
I think we all think mountain biking is a bigger deal than it is, its pretty friggin niche
escharts.com/tournaments/sport/red-bull-rampage-2022
The live view doesn't tell the whole story. Just search RB Rampage on youtube & you'll see 1M views for this year alone and 1.2M from 2022. Maybe some of that is double viewing but the utlimate viewship is far, far greater than 57K so yeah - niche, but still pretty big.
RB has 2.25M subscribers, over 23,000 shares just for the 2023 video. Not sure of the PB poll #'s as of today, but just Bren & Bienve easily scooped 90-95% of the "who should've gotten 1st place" vote...something like 9000 of 10,500 votes. That's a sign, but again - just a sliver of riders here.
I will suggest that mountain biking, in general is smaller than we might think, and going even deeper in the different genres, its gets smaller still.
Typically here in NA, especially in the PB comment section we are focused on the gravity side of things, and actual viewership/interest of that pales in comparison to XC, road, even CX events worldwide.
YouTube hits are a strange metric to me, so many ways to "game" that system through autoplay, different short view formats, bots, etc
As a side note, everyone involved benefits from any sort of controversy surrounding these types of events, the riders, the advertisers, the hosts, everyone. Something to keep in mind when people are riled up about rider placement in a niche event, for a bunch of mountain bikers in the desert
Just still not computing Bren & Bien being nearly 8 and 15+ less than Cam, even w/ the obvious knowledge the judges have. Are-watched all those runs & they're all sick... and this ain't a hill I'm gonna die on, just a curiosity / conundrum that makes me scratch my head too much.
Is there something you need to talk over with someone?
Have nice relaxing drink, maybe avoid alcohol and caffeine, lie down somewhere quiet, shut your eyes and takes some nice deep breaths.
But haveou seen stats for poverty (etc) in Alabama? Maybe the guy has PTSD? Profile does say he's 12 so in Alabama I guess he's been working already for about 4-5 years? The southern states roll that way.
I totally disagree with DB's assessment of that, as it's a total Mind-F*%k. You could use the same arguement to say 'Anyone can launch it off a giant jump', as that's not hard to do either, DB. But, managing the mental pressurecooker of the instant death exposure of the Battleship is not something most people could even handle.
It was hyped up by everyone as a key part of Szymon and Brendan’s runs. If the judges thought it was no big thing it’s a big shock to find out days after the event
It’s also worth considering that the judges themselves likely fall into the “able to ignore the exposure” category. Darren obviously does.
I think he did a good job explaining this. It’s a feature that’s just simply difficult to score.
I feel that more explanation on how Zinks score was calculated would help to explain why there was such a disparity, and it's a shame as all this just takes away from what was am incredible run from him...
His explanation ,while appreciated, is nothing more than him trying trying to justify scores that just don't add up. They quite clearly judged the winning run differently than the others. They scored with their hearts and how stoked they were with the home boy doing a fantastic complete run.
I can't believe how he can go into the level of detail about the run in to Bren's gap being so much more difficult and complex to any other, but then discount the trick element because it was "one of the go-to tricks if you just want to nibble off a trick off a drop or a big gap". Piss off. He describes how it was difficult enough just to be able to take off and land the thing, but ONLY doing a suicide means barely any trick points, sorry but that's complete and utter horseshit. Why is the trick not weighted against the complexity of the feature?
Furthermore, there's no need to "leave room" by like 5 whole points anyway! Since the scores were all down to two whole decimal points, even if Zink only scored 0.2 points ahead of 2nd place there would be 19 whole "spots" to fit in between him and 2nd, should the need arise.
Not to mention that your argument for "leaving room" even implies that they'd already decided that a) Zink should get 1st and b) a bunch of other riders shold slot in between him and BF.
None of what you say makes any sense at all. And most of all... apparently the other riders didn't get the message since the score they gave Zink effectively ended the competition and the 3 riders behind him didn't even bother to try to best him.
"lets give him scores so he remains in 1st, whatever the other guys do." its the definition of biased judging. what bs
On this one I really hopes the judges would’ve got it aligned with the spectators at home but it really didn’t happen, “so trust us” when we say #brendoggotrobbed
Just a dude justifying decisions after watching some rad off-road bicycle pilots in the desert.
Courage, is what was displayed by those riders.
Courage is what a firefighter displays when running into a burning building
Courage would be a disadvantaged youth working out of a life of violence and poverty
Courage is not justifying your actions as a judge of a freeride bike event.......its not "the whole internet", its a couple of people in the grand scheme of things, Jesus wept
Disclaimer : it’s maybe not the case for you, but IMO, the case of many poeple disrespecting the pilots and the judges on the rampage thread.
I am just noting that justification for a judging decision is not courageous, and the mere suggestion of it (by you) is pretty silly.
I have the utmost respect for the riders, and judges, photogs, vloggers, first aiders, volunteers, staff, families etc.....
I dont really care to much about the judging aspect, its a rad event, thats incredibly hard to ride, and judge. I couldnt do either, so I dont pretend to know who did it better than someone else
I been watching Rampage since Wade won, when we got a VHS of it to watch on loop at the shop.
For future events, what are your thoughts about not releasing scores until everyone has completed their first run which would give the judges the opportunity to rank everyone accordingly?
I'm not taking anything away from zinks madness but I think the scoring is quite clearly flawed when a lot of people even spectators at the arena are disagreeing with the outcome.
Aside from the battleship, Brendan's gap inrun to the canyon was arguably more gnarly than carson's drop in from the top.
We can also argue Brendan's 1st backflip was more tech than Carson's 1st flip on a cool super manicured feature. Look rider's left on Brendan's hit.
Line originality needs to count for something... not only was carson's line/zone used in multiple years of the past, but he shared it this year too. Sure he got in a couple smooth and large 3's, but the whole thing was vanilla compared to Brendan's fresh line.
That's what all those other awards are for and I think they went to the right guy.
But if you think the fans know wtf they're talking about then you haven't been in the PB comment section for long. 99% of these people have never been to Rampage.
But they also were well aware of what Zink had planned so it doesn't take a mental giant to figure out that they'd probably be paying extra attention.
No one has ever done what Zink just did. That's the biggest step down backflip of all time. It's bigger than it was when it was wood and it's dirt to dirt now.
And he did a lot of other things Kyle did not do.
Watch the runs again.
I’m kidding plz don’t make this a political comment section
Also hard to believe you guys didn't win the diggers award. Building so many new features from scratch on an already feature packed mountain (even having to jump over existing lines). Not to mention the exposure and dangers faced while you were building the battleship (might as well call it the HMS King Charles hehe) and the run in into the canyon gap. #thepeopleschamps
Wrong! Get Ben Cathro in to walk each line and we will know exactly what's going on! You know it makes sense!
Does anyone really want to see technicality of slope tricks winning Rampage vd. full send hanging it out there?
11 Canadian wins
4 USA
1 Spanish
1 French.
From Wikipedia, although it does yet show this years event which was the 4th US win
I appreciate it's a small sport and their aren't many individuals who have the experience to sit on that judging panel, but when your judging roster is full of North Americans watching their friends ride bikes and awarding cash prizes, you are always going to struggle to convince the masses they remained impartial and unbiased.
I mean, 30 of the 33 men’s World Cup XC Series titles have gone to Europeans, three times to North Americans. Is there some kind of implicit bias in that, or might it be that the Swiss and French are just that much better than the rest of the world?
Canadians and Americans started this stuff. Only makes sense they would dominate.
Also, XC racing isn’t a judged event.
While there are rulings and judgements present in XC racing (course departures, interfering with another rider, etc), judging doesn’t largely determine the outcome. Freeride “competitions”, on the other hand, are like more like figure skating in that they’re entirely judged.
And yeah, judge bias is often a topic of discussion in figure skating.
There is no logical, objective point you can derive from it other than the breakdown of the medals itself. Yes, it’s a fact that Canadians have won 11 times and that Europeans have only won twice. That’s it. But any other inferences are conjecture, no less subjective than the judging itself. It’s garbage logic.
Firstly, the judges watch the runs on a computer screen just like every body else. Secondly, you can't on one hand suggest that it's a freeride event but then go on to explain how actually the freeride element isn't really important. Thirdly, he has done an excellent job of explaining exactly why Brendan should have won, not why he didn't.
I don't really like the tone in his statements; he is very demeaning to the audience. He repeatedly sounds angry that the audience has a different opinion to the judges, for instance suggesting that the audience can't possibly have a valid opinion because they watch on a computer screen (which like I said, the judges also do) or that people that haven't ridden rampage can't possibly know anything about it.
Well here's a thought. If the audience isn't allowed an opinion, don't televise the event.
Now I switched off after they gave TVS 89 for his first run and haven’t watched the replay so did anyone actually see any evidence of these special judge only views when we had shots from inside the cave?
Not remotely good enough.
Judges: meh
Kyle Strait: Does a Sui on a drop to 'nibble off a trick'
Judges: Take multiple gold medals
Strait has obviously been a deserving winner many times, but the inconsistency here is apparent.
The judges were all in a shipping container box on a 2D screen judging all of this, yes, they did review the lines in person but that argument can't be made that you have to see it in person. Failure=death should be a major factor. It was not this year!
Is something really there is a demand to be understood, if you shut the door then dont get surprised: lack information+passion+frustration= BOOM.
Think about it this way.... you get X amount of bags. You invest a huge chunk of your bags into a special hit that's key to your line. Someone else is like... he lemme get that. Meanwhile they've been using their bags all over their line and you are not using it. That gives them a massive advantage.
Guys negotiate line sharing and bag usage all the time.
Where you choose to ride, how you use your bags, where you spend your time digging, who's lines and what parts of their lines you share... it's all part of the event. Without it, you might as well build one line and say... have at it. Best man wins. Then you have a Slopestyle event again.
Choices you make make all the difference in the world.
Example. Emil vs Talus
This isn't a Slopestyle course. These guys are required to bring their own teams, build their own lines, use their time and their bags to the best of their abilities. It's really as simple of... want to ride.... get a shovel.
I 100% support owning lines.
I think the only fair thing to do is either move to a new location each year so everyone starts afresh, or maybe even say that if you are using a line from a previous year then it must be open to other riders... But in doing that might you lose some of the creativity we saw this year? My favourite thing about Brendogs line was it took in 2 crazy features that could kill you, that others hadn't even considered. It does feel unfair that he didn't score higher to me, even after the explanation above.
It used to be way worse with qualifying and then finals. But still, it’s a fragile peace out there. I don’t really have a solution, but I don’t love the status who.
Yeah, Brendog got robbed, but I'm actually really happy to see Zink win, especially if it means he can let go now. Love Strait too but maybe it's time. Sorghe - come on dude, do you really need more trophies?
While I do agree it's nearly impossible to judge each run comparatively in a way that does each of them justice, the part that stood out to me as a GLARING issue with the scores was that three riders (Bienve, Boggs, and Brandt) all did the same run, only MUCH cleaner the second time, yet only received a ~.5 increase in scoring. That tells me the objectivity trick to trick is clearly not accurate, as a noticeable improvement on the same technical run should merit a notice improvement in scoring, as well. Otherwise, what is the point of a second run (assuming you finished the first)? Are riders expected to assume more risk and totally reinvent themselves on massive features that took weeks to prepare? That part did not make any sense to me.
Bienves run was very cool, but like claw said, the top was the chillest way down and he rode it slowly, and the bottom was also not very heavy. Take out the canyon fronty, and it was an "average" rampage run at best. I'm surprised the canyon fronty won best trick over cams flip as well. Yes, if you fall in the middle you die (which wouldn't happen with this level of athlete), but at the end of the day, it's a "straight forward jump" that is long. As we saw, you can send it to flat and walk away from it. It was definitely a safer move than flipping Cam's step down, which I might add was almost as long, and obviously had a drop as well. If Cam cased, or went long, or was blown a bit sideways off of that drop, he would have been donesville.
And no, I'm not fun at parties
Me not fun either
Easiest way to decrease frustration about the judging would be to put them on open mics while judging ….
For sure it has some flaws and risks, but I think it would be worth a try
Claw - you are a legend but the fact you needed to make a video about the judging shows ! that's all I'm saying on that!
Zink is a legend, no doubt but I cant help but feel he has put down the same run for the last decade! The backflip was huge and at full speed and the top of the line was super exposed - no questions... BUT - was it really more exposed and dangerous and creative then Brendogs - the simple answer is no it wasn't.
one thing from the judging i agree with is that the slopestyle runs didnt score as high as the big mountain lines.
BUT - you need a mix of both.
If Brendog had laid down a 360 on a big drop then there would be no questions asked IMO.
Next year - please get rid of Tina Dixon - it is soo cringy listening to her interview people - asking them 5 questions and putting words in their mouths is not required - let them talk - let them explain ,dont put words in their mouths - Tina, sorry but i am being honest. And you didn't even interview Brendog which disappointed a lot of us!
I dont agree with 2nd place or 3rd place which is a shame as Carson has huge potential to win it one day.
Another criticism - the venue pretty much looked like a slopestyle course this year on riders left (viewers right) - this isnt right! its a big mountain competition - think natural selection people....
A really simple thing to do, to keep the trust between the judges and the viewers, would be to explain the scores as he did on this video... but during the event.
Now you just get points without any justifications. And if the viewer "can't understand in 2D" which jump or cliff is more exposed, it is normal that people start to get suspicious and frustrated.
The Battleship was not gnarly? That's why only Brendon drove over it.
you know who never sits in an interrogation and needs to spend 2000 words explaining themselves? innocent people.....
This does nothing but solidify how bogus this judging was.
Frankly the lack of this type of transparency is what leading to all the questioning IMO.
Well that and #brendoggotrobbed
This is in response to claw saying the Sui is just a add on trick.. pfff . over a canyon?
But for entertainment value Brendog and his crew had the best social media coverage. We got an awesome insight into the builds and they are funny as heck. The build was totally unique and dangerous so that was another draw to it. That's what drew me in to watching redbull rampage this year. I didn't really care much about who else was riding but their youtube vlogs got me pretty stoked for it. So whether it deserved a podium or not it was epic entertainment.
So redbull keep the entertainers and senders coming back!
So just pre-rate the runs based on the technical elements, then score the individual runs based on kickers/penalties against the base pre-rated scoring.
Jamison... Builds wicked trails... Was never even a top tier competitor when he did compete... How many Rampages has he ridden in....
Spangler.... Hasn't been a relevant rider since the Drop In series...
Watts... Riding career was basically sidelined after repetitive injuries... Whens the last time you saw any big mountain riding from him...
Bender.... Hasn't been relevant in almost 25 years... Likely unable to even huck himself off anything anymore just due to being broken so many times...
Claw... Is without question a legend... But even at the height of his career was never more that a third place place contender... on his best day.... Also is well known for having a less than stella and holier-than-thou attitude....
Rampage needs a shakedown... Outside of the riding.... The whole format is old and tired....
What would your criteria be to make someone qualified to judge?
Perhaps they should put on a "Proving Grounds" for judges, where aspiring judges have to ride a line on the venue, tick off some "standard issue" tricks that have been around for a while. E.g., step down backflips, 360 drops, etc. You know, the stuff that is "easy" these days, since it was done 10 years ago.
You could reduce the focus on the competition... makes it more like a fest event. But then, think of all the entertainment that would be denied to this community -- getting to argue about who should have won, why this or that person got F'd, complaining about judging conspiracies! Why would we want to deprive the community of that, seems like its half the entertainment! Certainly this thread suggests that people really care about who wins as much as if not more than just simply the opportunity to watch some of the gnarliest freeriders in the world fully hanging it out there...
You don't get Olympic spectators booing the judges because the competition rules are laid out very clearly. But do that to Rampage and suddenly it's not Rampage anymore.
You'd almost be better just not having a winner or prize money, it's obviously not financially rewarding enough anyway by the riders own accounts anyway, they're doing it because they want the challenge. Or let the riders decide who won, if it's about perceived difficulty and the spirit of freeride, they themselves will have - if anything - more idea of who should win than judges sat on the arses (and, dare I say it, laurels) in a shed eating pizza
I think they should do INITIAL "closed door" score on first runs till all riders have done first run, then it gives the judges a little lea way to swap/re score a few runs when compare all the first runs together.
Then release results before 2nd run. I think rider will also have better idea what is then needed/judges looking for etc.
Cams' back was huge but it was just a pinch more than any of the other backs he or others pulled. Bienve's canyon front is unthinkable - and he did it twice. I'll wager only 2-3 other riders out there would've attempted it, much less a front flip w/ the result being death if failed.
I guess I still dont' see how a canyon front - with that risk - and doing it twice, scores even 1-2 points less than Cams yet-another-backflip but just 10 feet father or deeper. They are both still baller moves - but the canyon front? Next level-next level shit.
1. Did anyone else do a frontflip or was it only Bienve? Everyone can backflip it seems, but I swear nobody really tosses fronties?
2. Bienves frontflip was mad risky and exposed, despite the polished run up and landing. What if he blew it and bailed out and found himself supermanning 50ft in the air, coming up short, and plummeting into a canyon thats filled with sharp rocks and cliff faces? Where as these guys flipping drops are going to smash themselves into a polished landing like Gees crash.
Im not trying to take away from anyones run but honestly think of that frontflip in great detail, it should have secured podium. We KNOW they have given riders hugely biased scores in the past based on one trick, they did Bienve dirty.
Also, this isnt a slopestyle contest? I like how semenuk blew minds with a slope run and emils slope run was meh to everyone. Semenuk did slope tricks on the lower jumps if I recall, scored high because of it. Perhaps it was baised since nobody had approached rampage like that and now that he has done it emil looks like a clone. Who knows.
No hate on the judges, I get how tough it is, but I feel riders arent always judged fair. Certain stand out tricks done in runs should podium people at times, while others slide by with low key runs and throw tricks every competitor can do and take the W.
When the competitors are super confused - maybe it needs a rethink
As Deaks said - Would anyone else partytrain down BRENDOGS line???? I don’t think so.
Even w/ this statement - which is well done and thoughtful - Cam scoring 15 full points over Bienve: does. not. compute.
The fans spoke up and on PB and Redbull we overwhelmingly - BY FAR - went for Brendog & Bienve by 1000s & 1000's of votes. The contrast is stark - and if its this stark, clearly we're watching entirely different events - judges are watching Rampage version on steriods and we're watching the morning talk show version.
DB is saying that we're not there to see all this - true. But why then were most of the live fans onsite also saying the same thing about Brendog & Bienve? They were there with their exploding eyeballs - they were wrong too?
And talk about manicured - DB said "When you do a bunch of tricks on low slopestyle features you score low" - yet most of the upper center lines Cam & others too have been hugely buffed out over the past 10-15 yrs by the main riders - or at least they look like it and I may be wrong but it visually doesn't look like much natural terrain left there.
#2 All judges should be athletes who have ridden the event! How cool would it be for Brandon, Brett, Andreau etc. to be judging!
#3 Brendog got robbed!
If the judges know the line difficulty before it happens, maybe tell the viewers. Have some kind of metric, a difficulty rating or such, like gymnastics and ice skating and really most all other subjectively judged events, that can help explain why something that might look "easier" is actually really f*cking risky or otherwise really technically hard to perform.
They're too busy trying to maintain the black-box of perceived impartiality of judging, instead of discussing exactly this as part of the event. It doesn't have to be the judges taking about it, if they want to remain faceless and behind the curtain (until people complain about it), but at least relay the info to the hosts to get it to us.
Whew that feels better already! Gonna go ride my bike now
For sure is quite different to watch it on TV, and you talking about exposure and risk taking some lines which is fair and logic but: how many riders did you see sending frontflip in that kind of huge canyon jump??
it is a big jump not that difficult itself, but the fact about frontflip that kind of gap I guess should be gnarly enought to get a top5 at least. Many riders could ride exposured trails, but frontflip a canyon gap was the first time here.
BTW, if riding exposed and tight lines is that overscored then is not necessary to build those "easy" jumps at the bottom.
Note for the future, just send it fast on the crest and you will get it.
#bienvenidogotrobbed
hypocritical
In time 2:35 he is standing right there next to Brandon on runin. And then in time 4:25 he is standing down next to a takeoff, fistpumping and encouraging the man! And later you can see him running around to congratulate him! It is great that judges of this event are legends like Bearclaw and not a clueless people infront of tv who have never even be in this venue! Judges know exactly what riders are going through.They are doing a very hard job and they are doing it great.
Let the riders judge.
Guess from which nation the judges are coming from?
IDK what it is about cycling and inflamed opinions but they sure do seem to hand in hand.
Go ahead and downvote me, you know you want that dopamine rush that comes from hitting the neg button and saying "i'll show him".
Yes they'll get exposure through Social Media but I've no doubt that it's much less than we all think it should be for effectively putting your life on the line.
Like ... what do you want ?
Whatever the prize money is, divide it equally among the riders.
Jam format, no winners, no losers. Everyone just doing it for the love of it.
Best trick, best line, spirit of rampage award (or whatever you want to call it) and any other categories you want to add, all voted for in a poll by the public. No additional money for winning any of these, just the accolade.
People will still watch it, riders will still want to ride. No controversy.
There ya go - you win this debate.
They are with hubble telescopes? Or FPV live on the site?
Brendog got robbed. They want to reward the winner, especially after his last salty comments past years.
They were stuck in a little room watching about 6screens lol
THANK YOU Pinkbike for letting us watch it for free.
THANK YOU Riders for putting yourselves at risk for our enjoyment.
THANK YOU Judges for doing a difficult job.
Aguado best trick 78 points
Wtf?
“WAM-bulance”
Riders judge.
Don't need the huge live production(hello).
Pinkbikers still be like nah, can't be true ♂️
The scoring for gymnastics and ice skating is based on What “trick” the athlete does and how “perfect” they execute the task. They get deductions based on every flaw.
Rampage: line choice, tricks, execution, and flow all some up a perfect run. And Cam Zink did not have that run. I would’ve scored him a 82. I say Talas Turk had a better run.
1. Bienve
2. Brendog
3. TVS
4. Talas Turk
5. Cam Zink