Rampage Judge Darren Berrecloth Speaks Out On 2023 Event

Oct 16, 2023 at 10:44
by Darren Berrecloth  

*Editor's note: video transcript edited for clarity.

bigquotesWell folks, it seems like there's a lot of controversy on how the judges came to the conclusions that they did. So I just felt like jumping on here and trying to shed some light on how myself and the rest of the judges came to the conclusions that we did. At the end of the day, I feel a lot of empathy for everyone that doesn't really understand how we come to that conclusion because the majority of people are watching on a two-dimensional screen. It's almost impossible for people that are not there to actually understand all of the intricacies of each line and why one line is actually harder than the other and how one line can be much more exposure than the other when you're watching on a screen. We've all heard how the screen never really shows things as they are, and it's even truer at an event like the Red Bull Rampage.

Every single person that's watched it for years that finally gets their boots on the ground and walks up a Rampage venue, their eyes are just blown out of their sockets because they're just so amazed at how much bigger and gnarlier everything is in person rather than looking on a screen that they've been looking on for sometimes 10-15 years.

With an event site like this, we know the site very well. I rode that venue, I have my own line there, I have a bunch of experience riding those ridges, sending it off the top and whatnot. We go and we look at everyone's lines, and we actually measure every single takeoff to landing, pretty much [all] of the bigger stuff is all measured, just so that we can cross-reference it to any of the other features.

On top of that we look at what kind of exposure there is coming into the feature. Do they have to brake really hard? Do they have a really easy in-run with no exposure? How's the landing? Because sometimes the landings are really skinny, and there's a cliff on the side, like an actual wall on the high side, and then on the low side is a 50-foot cliff as well, right where you're landing. And then some landings are really manicured and buff, and you don't really have a lot of risk if you fall. So all these different factors go into how we judge a line.

The hot topic right now is Bienve, and how his score was so low because everyone looks at the big features that prominently stick out in everyone's mind, and what everyone focuses on. So for Bienve's run, his upper portion of his line was one of the mellowest ways to get off the top, and he didn't have a lot of speed on it, so he was riding it fairly timidly. And then as soon as he got roughly around the halfway mark of his run, he really turned it up.

He flipped off the step down onto the lily pad, which was rad, and then he went into his front flip over the canyon gap. At the end of the day, those three features [Editor's note: he forgot to mention the big three drop right above the lily pad flip, but is referencing it here as one of Bienve's three big moves.—Ed] were amazing, and they were over really big features. The canyon gap I believe is 72-73 ft, I'd have to check my notes, but tip to tip, it's one of the biggest. But keep in mind with that canyon gap, the sightlines are really good, you're looking at everything when you're coming into it, and everything's super buff and manicured. You have a nice mellow in-run, because you're coming off a drop. Obviously flipping into the lily pad is super nasty, but then he's got a really long run out into that, so he's got a lot of time to shut it down on the brakes if he doesn't want to hit it, and he's got a lot of time to check his speed and gauge how fast he's going. And then on the landing itself, the landing is super big and wide. It was one of the only features that the event actually pre-built for the riders just because it's such a prominent feature, and there's just no way that athletes can take on a build like that. And then after that, he goes into a couple of tricks down on the lower stuff. And I hope everyone knows that this is a big mountain freeride event. And when you do a bunch of tricks down low on dirt jump-style features, you're not going to get rewarded as well versus doing those big tricks up high on the mountain where there's exposure.

This brings me to some of my other points. It is a big mountain freeride event and not a slope style event. If you are doing your tricks up high on the ridges where there's a ton of exposure, you're going to get rewarded very well. And that's was the case where athletes that were riding ridges that were skinny and had a ton of exposure they definitely got rewarded.

Another topic with us judges that we talked about in great depth was the Battleship. Originally it was supposed to be Brendan and Gee [and Szymon.—Ed.] hitting that. Unfortunately, Gee took himself out in practice. And the Battleship was by far the biggest amount of exposure we've ever seen at a Rampage course. The feature itself was quite a mellow feature. If you didn't have any exposure and that little skipper onto the battleship was in the forest without any cliffs beside it, it would just be not a really nice jump or a little gap at all. The landing was like 8 inches tall, and it immediately went uphill. And that was due to the fact that the ridge was so skinny, and just how the actual feature was naturally, you couldn't really make it any better.

So the actual feature itself was not that hard to ride. But at the end of the day, if you screwed up and all it got bounced off on either side, the consequences were so severe. So, us judges, we talked about it in great depth, like, "how do we judge this?" Because you really don't have that tough of a feature, but the fact that there's so much exposure makes it insanely scary. And you really can't take away anything from the athletes if they're putting themselves at so much exposure. So we had to judge that quite high, and Brendog really was rewarded for that, as one of the gnarliest features for exposure on the entire mountain.

Flipping to Brendog's run, his canyon gap was, in our opinion, much gnarlier than the lower canyon gap that Bienve front flipped because the in-run coming in, which maybe not a lot of people actually saw, [Brendog's] in-run actually skipped over top of Brett Rheeder's old line, which made it twice, maybe even three times as hard. Literally where the compression would be, where you're pumping for the lip, he actually had to have a downhill takeoff with a not the greatest landing to land in. And then pump and pull off a very skinny lip to make it across this canyon. That was very technical, and once again, we rewarded him quite very high on his exposure level and his line choice. His trick score was not that high because he did a suicide over it. It's a pretty rad trick, but it's one of the go-to tricks if you just want to nibble off a trick off a drop or a big gap.

His step-down flip definitely was a little tight and very technical, but it wasn't anywhere near the size of any of the other people's big flip step-downs. There was several of the guys doing big flip step-downs. Obviously, no one held a candle to Zink's step-down, which is still the biggest flip step-down in history on one of the biggest features ever hit in history.

So, I could go into every single athlete and explain why, but I think for now this is just a recap of the two hot topics which it seems like in usual fashion, #brendoggotrobbed is usually a hashtag that gets thrown up quite often. And, obviously Bienve is a fan favorite 'cause he front flipped the canyon gap. That's amazing. It's rad. And a lot of people, even several family members, have asked me, "hey, how come Bienvenido didn't win?"

You know, it's very simple to us because when you're looking at it on a screen, you just can't understand what we're looking at from the judge's opinion. And at the end of the day, I have a lifetime of experience riding this event as a competitor, and I also have a lot of experience judging this event. And you guys just really need to rely on myself and my other judges, our knowledge, and our skill of being in this industry, and understanding and spending so much time in these hills, and trust that we're going to get the best results that are possible. And you just have to trust us on that.

I urge you to one day get some tickets and check it out for yourself. And I guarantee you, you would have a much bigger appreciation for some of these lines, and you may understand where we came from, and how we got to our decisions ultimately. So, anyways, hope that clears some things up. If not, keep on sending out all the hate mail.
Darren Berrecloth, Freeride Legend & Rampage Judge


Author Info:
claw avatar

Member since Sep 5, 2000
8 articles

625 Comments
  • 909 129
 Brendog. Did infact. Get robbed.
  • 109 43
 narrator: This was not "in fact."
  • 34 98
flag wolftwenty1 (Oct 16, 2023 at 12:49) (Below Threshold)
 Nah.
  • 182 4
 I get his argument for the #1 spot, but definitely not how it explains the scoring for #2 or #3 by the same logic.
  • 74 83
flag cuban-b (Oct 16, 2023 at 12:52) (Below Threshold)
 @Mugen: who won the silver medals behind michael phelps and usain bolt? nobody gives a sht is the answer
  • 149 10
 @cuban-b: I couldn't tell you who won gold in pole vaulting either... This a mtb website, and I do give a shit about people putting it all out there and getting 0 recognition from the event.
  • 20 81
flag cuban-b (Oct 16, 2023 at 13:44) (Below Threshold)
 @Mugen: LOL it was just a joke man relax
  • 49 1
 @Mugen: 3rd place with no tricks.... Needs to be a whole other show to explain the scoring format. Probably one of the best Rampages yet, levels of riding are insane!
But the judging part of it always is a spoiler. We can't all get there, we don't all know the area, so please explain it better. People just want to see what the judges see, or the judges to see what the people see, either would help.
  • 15 15
 @cuban-b: That's because you don't "win" second ( unless you're in 'murica)
  • 11 4
 @Mugen:i was thinking the same initially but went back and watched the replay. go back and watch the replay, there were significant tricks thrown by 2nd and third. I think the caveman trick looks way easier than it is. and Carson did way more tricks for 3rd than Tom but the caveman is of higher consequence.
  • 13 18
flag heavyp (Oct 16, 2023 at 15:36) (Below Threshold)
 With all the controversy thats happened this past event maybe the judging should be changed to the riders being the judges but they can't obviously vote for themselves or even better than that have an online poll from the people watching live
  • 42 18
 @heavyp: the fans clearly don’t know much and would just vote for their favorite riders not the gnarliest lines. Case in point…this years ‘controversy’
  • 22 1
 @heavyp: All the judges are/were riders.
  • 78 114
flag scott-townes (Oct 16, 2023 at 16:11) (Below Threshold)
 A bunch of clueless people (casual fans) are jumping on a bandwagon because its popular. If you're an actual fan of the sport, you wouldn't be insulting the riders and the most legit judges, some of the best and experienced riders in freeriding. All because their like totally favorite rider didn't get as many points as they felt they should have. Grow up.

Feelings are not facts and asking these PB fanboys to be objective is impossible. Its like PB got infested by Trump supporters denying the election. How about supporting EVERY person involved that makes this a reality, including the riders who win as well as those who don't? Having been at this venue for multiple years, including hiking around to the top, you have zero clue as to how crazy the top sections are or how deceiving cameras are showing some of these drops. They continue to risk their lives pushing this sport. What have you done?

The Claw is indeed the law.
  • 222 8
 Darren's right, we we weren't there, we aren't riding it, maybe we should just "trust" the judges. But question, how do you think Brendog feels about the score he received? He seems more than qualified to comment. But he didn't have much to say (on the record at least), and sounds like he's not interested in coming back next year, which I can try to do the math here and figure it just might have something to do with getting underscored. I think that does speak volumes - and more than all the Pinkbikers on here. That that is a big loss for Rampage to lose someone like him. He generated a lot of interest this year based on his features and line choice... which is kinda what I thought Rampage was all about, the progression of freeride. No? Yet, everyone ahead of Brendog was doing stuff similar to what we've seen recently, or even 10 years ago (granted I did say similar and not the same); and I'm not saying Brendog should have been first - but 4th? Seriously? That's really hard to defend.
  • 63 21
 I'm still not hearing a compelling case for Zink's top spot. (Yes, yes, I saw his backflip. It was huge. But like Lyle's sui no hander, we've seen those two pull similar tricks in competition before.)

I shall remain convinced of a conspiracy. haha
  • 27 94
flag scott-townes (Oct 16, 2023 at 16:17) (Below Threshold)
 People ask for the judges to explain how they judged, give them enough respect to watch the video that you've been crying for.
  • 3 1
 Yet again!
  • 7 81
flag scott-townes (Oct 16, 2023 at 17:09) (Below Threshold)
 @trillot: No its not when you know what the other riders are doing. You're all just speculating like school kids.
  • 33 6
 @thisisrusty: I agree. Darren does a good job at explaining here, but maybe a dedicated show to explain upfront which features score highest. He's basically saying the canyon gap is easy (by comparison!), which is fair but is not the image that was portrayed in early Rampages where a big deal is made of this feature.
Regarding exposure, Semenuk's biggest tricks seem to be where the exposure was lowest and that didn't stop him winning in the past.
Maybe this should actually be judged on how it appears on 2D TV, since that's the objective of the show...
I'm also not comfortable with directly rewarding exposure because then you're saying that no matter how entertaining a run is, it can't win if the athlete didn't risk his life...
  • 15 5
 Eh. I say let the riders judge. /thread
  • 69 9
 "And you guys just really need to rely on myself and my other judges, our knowledge"
trust us bro ok, u guys dont know!

now im sure he knows what hes talking about but that's not exactly how you clear the air "trust us u guys sucks" never is a good line lol
  • 50 7
 @p1nkbike: Was a bit condescending; i thought so to at the end.
  • 26 23
 Rewatch top 4 runs, the scoring makes sense now. The top 3 runs all took steeper, more exposed, rowdier lines from top of the mountain. All 3 had more tricks than Brendog and I can't even judge the size of Zink's stepdown backflip from the angle shown to us. It's almost a toss up between 4th and 3rd place runs really.
  • 46 5
 @scott-townes: Your comments on this thread and every other thread about rampage remind me of the "Lions not sheep" slogan. You're so much smarter than everyone else. And your appeals to authority are definitely not flawed either.
  • 12 6
 @thisisrusty: 3rd place is Carson Storch : really steep exposed drop in top section, big flip step down up high (miss the next turn, you’re dead…), 3.6 drop on a sizable drop, 3.6 drop on one of the biggest drop at the venue and flip step down at the bottom. You need to watch the replay again I believe.
  • 31 5
 have to login to Pinkbike account just to vote for this post, BRENDOG got robbed! again!
  • 3 3
 @Vraiphil: thank you for correcting me. Yup, I was fully wrong, wild run. The level of riding this year was so good!
  • 6 7
 @Vraiphil: His landings were so clean, too. And he had the flip additionally were TVS did not trick. I would have seen Carson in second place. Seems the caveman from TVS was valued very high!

And for Brendan - I love that guy. He would have placed 2nd with a 360 anywhere, but his line does have it - yet!
  • 157 25
 Bendog should have "accidentally" screwed up a relatively simple part of his first run so he couldn't complete it, and been really visibly upset. Then show "real" nervousness at the top of his second run whilst waiting ages for the time to be right which would show the judges how technical and exposed it is and hyping everyone up. Then he should have done the exact same run he actually did, but he wouldn't now have been one of the first riders to post a score. Then he should have had his crying wife and kids accost him at the end. That would guarantee a higher score so he could also annoyingly drag the kids up onto the podium.
  • 10 59
flag scott-townes (Oct 17, 2023 at 3:15) (Below Threshold)
 @TET1: Yeah, I'm not making absurd assumptions based on ignorance to the point of insulting riders and judges. I'll gladly call out gapers for being clueless douches because you deserve it.
  • 26 7
 @bigtim: spot on
  • 7 0
 @bigtim: Brits have a great sense of humour! Big Grin But Americans are the better showmen. Cool
  • 14 13
 @bigtim: this is harsh though, disrespectful to a legend pushing the boundaries of what can be done on an mtb.
  • 11 4
 @bigtim: Hey. You don't seem to realize what a journey the past few years have been to get to this point. Life's really been harsh on these guys and a true emotional roller coaster. Only with the support of their families did they manage to push through and get back on their bikes! God Bless!
  • 48 3
 @scott-townes: a site moderator should rename this guy's account to Scott Clownes
  • 16 6
 if you can do the same run for the last decade (+) and win then there is a problem!
  • 2 56
flag scott-townes (Oct 17, 2023 at 6:38) (Below Threshold)
 @tom666: A gaper calling me childish names means I'm doing something right. Keep on being ignorant.
  • 1 9
flag pargolf8 (Oct 17, 2023 at 6:41) (Below Threshold)
 @Mugen: trying so hard for your upvotes. Go to work
  • 4 1
 @tom666: the best way to deal with this is downvote and don’t respond. It looks funny like that lol
  • 9 3
 By god you've nailed it.

It is not mutually exclusive to say that 1) DB is correct and 2) Brendog (and now Bienve) got robbed. Mutliple things can be true at once. Brendog. Did infact. Get robbed. Thanks for being upfront with this.
  • 1 0
 @SnowshoeRider4Life: No but it was in jest
  • 1 3
 @bigmeatpete420: You don't even have to downvote like China & Russia. Its just bikes - and comments - not a biggie. Just move on.
  • 23 5
 @sngltrkmnd: With ya. Bienve's "vanilla" top line is easily more than 95% of us would ever handle - the canyon front with death as the alternate to landing? Yeah - that's worth 15 full points less than Cam's yet-another-backflip, massive as it was and risky (he was literaly inches from the left edge of that) - still doesn't add up to 15 full points more than Bienve.

But talk about risk, exposure & manicuring...that's those center lines these guys have been grooming for years... doesn't even look that raw any longer, it looks buffed out. Meanwhile, new riders are forced out to those "vanilla" lines where they have to traverse out to get to their near-death features so it seems Bienve was punished for that. Doesn't add up to me.
  • 36 3
 @scott-townes: One thing is clear - you're the 1st place winner of the grandad-watering-the-lawn PB Comment Rampage For Downvotes here...looks like a few 100 just here on this thread.

But I don't downvote you (or anyone) - I want to see it all, even if I don't agree. What it is though, is you sound like a whining little B instead of just treating yr rider cohorts here like equals. I've been riding for 33 yrs and you've insulted me directly & personally here many times, as if we know each other or as if haven't seen 33 yrs worth of bikes, gear, trails, fads ideas or thought about anything. I dont' even care - this is just words on a screen but its the vibe you give off: its just not how you get points across or make friends.

Drop all the accusations & finger pointing and your deas are better made & shared.
  • 14 2
 @bikerdre: We did. Viewers on the ground: Brendog & Bienve. RB viewers: Brendog & Bienve. PB poll: Brendog & Bienve.

The carpet doesn't match the drapes here - Cam scores 15 full points over Bienve's make-it-or-you-die canyon front flip...twice? That level of chest hair just doesn't grow on me or anyone I know and all respect to the judges and Cam - that backflip was insane, but nothing we've not seen before. Visually it looks like every other back he's ever doen there on over-pimped lines.
  • 10 3
 @TET1: Check-check. I feel bad for the guy, all sniping at people who would prob be ride bros if we lived nearby...some people just feel the power from throwing bombs online, but this guy def wins the PB Comment Rampage for Most Downvotes Ever on just one article... guessing he's in the 10's of 1000's of total comment downvotes for his posting history (?) And I don't even downvote - I'm happy to read anything here, but I'm noticing the trend. The guy lives in a corner.
  • 7 2
 @tom666: I want to run stats on the total of downvotes this guy has gotten on PB (and honestly why even bother commenting at that point? ) Just on this page, as of 10/17/2023 he has almost 250 downvotes.

Def the PB Comment Rampage Downvote King. The fans have spoken...
  • 15 0
 @trillot: I hope darren and the other judges will see this comment. 100% true and worth to think about.

They need to improve the the judging drastically. Every year some riders do not get the score they deserve. BUT this year was exceptionally bad.

#brendoggotrobbed
  • 3 1
 @heavyp: the judges ahould be blind to the course. So they only see the runs while being hit during comp day, makes a lpt more sense instead of sitting on a hill watching a guy dial in a jump and going thats nuts while the guy that sneaks a trick in he didnt practice gets scored higher.
  • 24 0
 @scott-townes: Here is some name calling you've done over the course of several pinkbike articles in the last week, as summarized by ChatGPT:

Clueless
Gapers
Ignorant
Kids
Fanboys
Jackass
Dummies

Others must be doing something right since you are mudslinging as well.
  • 5 1
 @Mtn-Goat-13: Good point about the "vanilla" lines and grooming them for years! This leads me to a new idea Geek !!...All riders have to do two runs. Each of the riders will do their own line once, the second line has to be on another riders choice of line and will be done top to bottom completely on that riders line.Thus, both lines will be scored and combined with their own line score, rendering an average score between both runs combined and using that combined score to be the final score judged upon.

I bet this would solve the problem and more fans and riders would feel the same. Plus it would change the level of the game...RBR is one of the only judging events i believe where everyone uses a different course / line etc.,etc.. Making the judging way more difficult than it should be and less accurate, as we have witnessed every single year.
  • 11 2
 Absolutely. Several riders could have done the battleship but skipped it, that is enough for me. He did two massive things NO ONE else would consider. I can't imagine the run in to the canyon gap even without the canyon being there. He had the best rampage line and nailed it. If someone did the same trick over a (very massive) gap 10 years ago how can that be so great???
  • 18 20
 I would concede the abrasive tone of @scott-townes in this and most comments he participates in. BUT, this guy actually knows what he is talking about. He doesn't say it in nice ways, but it is blatantly transparent how many riders here have ZERO clue what they are actually looking at, and no respect for the judges, athletes, venue, etc. It is obviously transparent that a majority, but not all, of the people whining and critisizing this event are inexperienced, intermediate riders who would seriously struggle (or worse) on basic, black diamond, steep technical terrain, to say the least. Unless you have been to rampage and seen those lines in person, please stop trying to pass your opinions and wild speculations off as reasoned and informed. It insults everyone, you look like an idiot, it's bad for the sport and it's bad for Rampage.

Don't agree with the judges? That doesn't make you special. Claw was decent enough to explain the rationale, and guess what? He's better than you, he has more experience than you, and he HAS ACTUALLY RIDDEN THIS TERRAIN in competition, also unlike you. So to the haters out there: just enjoy Rampage for what it is. It's sick, it's awesome, it's only once a year. Yeah maybe some riders didn't get their due, but basing your whole yearly salary and professional worth on this singular event is a tenuous career plan at best. So maybe I don't agree with ST's tone, but he has a point. If the kooks take over the sport, the sport get's ruined. Maybe show some humility and learn from athletes, like Claw, who are better than you.
  • 5 1
 @Mugen: I agree, besides the chute Tom and Carson’s runs were pretty groomed and wide…
  • 15 0
 #unfairclough
  • 4 5
 @MT36: Thank you, what a piece of art you’ve made out of this comment ! Holy words right here.
  • 2 2
 @TET1: I will have to say, a few of those are not necessarily name calling.
  • 3 4
 @Vraiphil: Thank you sir.
  • 3 3
 @WillyB83: Yes, if all he did this year was the same backflip on the same huge step down and still won, that would be a problem! I would say that his run this year was very different compared to his run in 2013 when he did a back flip on the wood version of the step down. https://www.redbull.com/int-en/videos/red-bull-rampage-2013-cam-zink-s-third-place-run

Watching the 2013 run, I think he would probably have only scored 10th or lower if did it this year. In 2013, he had a sort of technical line at the top, but had a very mellow (for today's standards) line the rest of the way down, with only a few small jumps, except for the big oakley sender. This year, they added many more big jumps/drops compared to 2013. And back then the oakley sender had a much easier run in compared to what they did this year. This year, it was bigger and way more technical in that to get the speed perfect for it, he had to stomp a big step down and a huge step up just before it. His top section this year was way gnarlier than 2013 and was one of the most technical and crazy lines off the top (Brendan's battleship was certainly the scariest though).
  • 20 2
 @likeittacky: Let's have you assign a score to each one of @scott-townes references to a person/people. Judge it Red Bull Rampage style so we know it's real:

-clueless people
-PB fanboys
-school kids
-gapers
-clueless douches
-clueless gapers x 3
-clueless fanboys
-clueless clowns
-as classless as they are clueless
-And you types are the problem
-you kids
-buddy
-boy
-pathetic
-casual fans with little understanding
-ignorant children
-you dummies x 2
-yall dense
-you fanboys are so ignorant
-You're all whack
-Some kids
-severe cases of ignoramous gaperporius
-these idiots
-bandwagon hopping gaper
-clowns
-you guys are so ignorant
-You're a jackass
-armchair whiners
-you're so friggen ignorant
-You and your like-minded ilk
-efff offff you pussieeeesssss
  • 11 1
 @MT36: lucky I only build triple diamond black trails these days, so everyone else is beneath me and doesnt have a clue what they are talking about.

Slab track at Dyfi had some gnarly stuff in it, especially as it was raining/sleet. Trespasser was a blast back in the day too when I used to ride out there.

Brendogs battleship was an option for so many riders but they passed it by.
Zink repeated a trick on a purpose built feature from year ago, all be it with a different lip. It was crazy rad and zink is a legend but it didn't hold up against the battleship and the canton gap.
Hopefully the claw will be up the hill showing us how basic the battleship was, maybe be will 3 off it too.
  • 10 1
 The answer smacks of “we know better than you” which might be true but it’s hard to see Cam’s trick out scoring Bienve’s I guess because “it’s blind”. I mean, a front flip is by definition blind…
  • 3 24
flag scott-townes (Oct 18, 2023 at 3:37) (Below Threshold)
 @shredddr: "The answer smacks of “we know better than you” which might be true"

Hahahahahahahaha Your belief that you might know more is all we need to know about you insufferable, ignorant a*sholes.
  • 2 21
flag scott-townes (Oct 18, 2023 at 3:39) (Below Threshold)
 @betsie: Aw that's cute! You still have never been or ridden at any of the Rampage sites so no, you have zero clue of what you're talking about.
  • 18 3
 @scott-townes: your some boy.
I recon I could ride the last few meters to the gate at the bottom.

But as the claw has never done a front flip in completion or ridden the battleship he has no clue either by your way of thinking.
I get it now ... they voted for folk within their "clue" limit, as they couldn't ride Brendogs line they had no clue. They couldn't judge it because they are clueless. Only Brendog would ride that line so only Brendog could score his line

In Scotland we have a saying for your theory.... "Utter pish"
  • 3 6
 @betsie: It was an option for many rider but they didn't built it, so they couldn't use it. Also it is clear that some riders have more mental margins than others and so some of them probably tought "get lost with that death wish of a feature". But technically, it doesn't makes it harder to ride it. Right ?

I think the Claw was pretty clear about that in his explanation (only riders would could totally unplung their brain regarding the exposure were riding it).
  • 3 6
 @betsie: garbage take. The claw has ridden lines that these guys would never try. Mike Kinrade rode an even gnarlier "battleship" feature in Brighter and where the trail ends that those other folks backed out of. "only brendog could score it"

whatchu on boii?
  • 3 2
 @Vraiphil: That's wrong! Godziek built the Battleship line open for everyone!
  • 8 3
 @SnowshoeRider4Life: I was taking the piss using the analogy of "I am better than you so only I know how to score something BS".
I am sure that riders could have asked to use the battleship feature if they so desired, one used the take off but didnt build it.... (nobody else took that riskier line, high up the mountain where its more exposed).
Just because something is 60ft doesnt make it risky, a 10ft drop onto a spine, off an unmanicured take off thats blind could be more risky.
The battleship was simple apart from that it wasnt simple due to the exposure, risk, narrowness of the landing, the run into it and the run off it, potential for a side wind, the distance from the previous small air and the small take off.... I am sure Brendog could ride the 60ft step down all day with ease, back flip it... probably not (lets just say he couldnt as he is an racer still and youtuber). You could easily argue that most features on Hardline are harder than that stepdown (every rider completing hardline would have no issues riding the step down, squashing it and riding it at race pace too).
Gee demonstrated what a crazy gnarly step down is, as did Brage last year, both of them pushing beyond the risk limit and paying the price. Brages wooden step down is way more gnarly. The game has moved on in the last 10 years with a few riders pushing the limits to a completely different level (probably too far, the consequences for these risks have been felt by those riders!).

Zink played it safe on his run, he did say he wanted to do a combo trick off that trickable stepdown but pulled out of the move (was it a thought only that was never gonna come off... we will never know).

I hope that Zink turns up to Hardline or Darkfest or even a "slopestyle event" to show the world that he isnt just Rampage with his mates scoring. (yeh yeh, that sounds like I am bashing Zink, the guys is an absolute legend and has done some crazy massive jumps, paid the price with some gnarly crashes and is now on the retirement path with his family)
  • 3 1
 @yoobee: For everyone you say? Sweet! Let me go grab my 2001 Spesh Enduro, I'll give it a go!
  • 13 2
 @betsie: BF flipped a pretty gnarly canyon in 19. I think he could get that step down.

Zink was at Darkfest, I think in 22. He also used to do all the Crankworx slope stuff when he was younger.

The biggest take away for me, as gnarly as that flip was, especially after reading the account from the judge talking about how important exposure is.... didn't see much of that on his run. Short of the flip, it was actually pretty boring. Perhaps a better candidate for best trick and not a winning run. Storch and TVS both had pretty vanilla runs also. great style and flow, but no exposure. Then, the elephant in the room.... Emil gets 7th with a similar run that Rheeder won with last year. not enough people talking about that. Not saying he should have won, but there was stark difference in the scores they each recieved.
  • 9 1
 For those interested Olly Wilkins just posted a very interesting video on YouTube last night having a discussion amongst Himself, Ben D., and Brendog with their perspective on everything that has been debated.

I will say, I believe a few things were said in order not to try and claim a win or better score, due to the fact it would not look good to sponsors and his image but truly has opposite feelings; judging by the expressions of each of them.
  • 5 2
 @Radbill: 100% on Emil. And he did opo tricks on features which is another level. Maybe the judges don't appreciate how technical they are! Emil's 2nd run until that wee crash was the most technical trick run in rampage history by a long way. Emil is so chill as he knows he has dominated for a couple of years in slope style he didn't seem to care. Emil is very wise too and knew even if he threw a very technical combo off the old icon drop it wouldn't score high enough for the rampage scoring system.
.
  • 3 0
 @Radbill: this!!! How come last year Rheeder won because his line was so tough and technical and original - out on the margins without years of buffing - yet Emil got way less reward while adding insane tricks and style to it? Okay so it's less original this year but no less tech.

And if originality and line choice supposedly score big, as Bearclaw says, HELLO!!! Brendog had a completely new, unique line that nobody else touched and was the only rider to use the battleship and complete their run.

It's such a shame that Godziek and Kaudela didn't get their runs done because they were supposedly very original too (and both rode the ship) and that could have given us a better picture of where/how that would score. As it is Brendog had far and away the most creative line choice.

Seems to me that being North American gives you an automatic +5 score at Rampage. McGazza is the only guy to get the respect due for a canyon gap vs. a drop... and he still finished 2nd. I think the judges do a tough job pretty well in general, but - correct me if I'm wrong - all 5 are N. American. Every year. Unconscious bias?

#brendogwasrobbed
  • 1 0
 @TET1: lmao. The amount of effort put into this is wild haha.
  • 1 0
 @bigtim: It's what Brendog said. I guess he meant the competitors Smile
  • 2 0
 @bigmeatpete420: Sometimes people value different things, like putting effort into some things and not others.
  • 2 0
 @TET1: I value this very high. Thank you for this
  • 305 31
 I appreciate the statement by Darren. But I don't agree with the reasoning here. He repeatedly points out that it's a freeride event that rates exposure and risk highly, which in fact means that Brendog should have won. The suicide no hander wasn't enough of a trick over the gap? Should he kill himself right away with a 360 or flip? Sorry, I'm not any wiser after reading it.
  • 66 230
flag brianpark Editor (Oct 16, 2023 at 11:52) (Below Threshold)
 Exposure is one factor, tricks is another. There had been talk of Brendan flipping the canyon throughout the week, which would have been wild. IMO he'd have been a lock for podium with a flip on the canyon, and possibly won it—depending on what he did on the smaller stepdowns below.
  • 158 5
 @brianpark: If there was talk of Brendan flipping the canyon in the week, but then he decided not to on the day, do you think that it's possible that it would adversely affect the judging? Like, the judges were exepcting a flip but because he didn't do it, they scored him less?
  • 100 3
 I agree, on one side he says it's got a super sketchy run in with a hop over another line but then says he only did a suicide. He only did a suicide because the run in was so technical. Feels like he contradicts himself.
  • 20 0
 @brianpark: A lock like 2019?
  • 10 46
flag cuban-b (Oct 16, 2023 at 12:42) (Below Threshold)
 its almost as if you didnt read Bearclaws statement above lol
  • 73 0
 @brianpark: "There had been talk of Brendan flipping the canyon throughout the week" and yet on Dan Wolfe's interview he said and what Olly had said before, that many riders thought the feature wont work, can't be done at all. And now there's been talk of flipping it?
  • 1 5
flag mfoga (Oct 16, 2023 at 13:59) (Below Threshold)
 @brianpark: podium yes win doubtful. Would a backflip got him 2/3 a point to get a podium (assuming 3rd place score was not improved) but h would had to get what lose to 9 more points for a backflip. Could they have said yep he won give him the points but then what happened if last two to drop went even bigger they would have little wiggle room on score. Now I’d they just ranked people at end of first runs with no scores that would make doing all of this a lot easier.
  • 45 3
 @brianpark: the battle ship and the canyon is exposure. Apparently not enough for everyone. :-(
  • 71 2
 What struck me was how much the judging rewards risk and punishes risk reduction, directly and specifically. It’s like if high-divers got scored higher the closer to the wall they landed. Sure, danger obviously is part of the sport. But making danger to the athletes a thing you’re scoring for? Yikes.
  • 5 0
 If made it look just as terrifying and unbelievable without it actually being as dangerous, that should be why you win, not why you lose.
  • 20 1
 I think it was nice of Bearclaw to step up and chime in on some particular complaints people have on the judging. I can by no means claim that I've got a better understanding of how hard one thing is compared to the other and I'm quite surprised to learn other keyboard warriors in apparently are. Only thing I would appreciate however is if they'd not only give the final score but also the score breakdown across those four categories which they've already been using for at least two decades. The other suggestion I read and think I'd appreciate is if they'd only score the first runs once they've all been finished so that they can set a benchmark of what would for instance be worth 80 points. I'm actually curious to see what the judges think about these suggestions. Whether they'd like to implement them to next years' event and if not, why.
  • 42 6
 Zinc went all out and deserved the podium, and I'm okay with his win. But I don't agree with Calw saying how "easy" the battleship was to ride. The approach was a bit sketch, going faster than you'd want to there with slight turn adjustments. And Brendan was doing stoppies in exposure too.
I totally agree that the judges expectations based on rumors during the lead up to the event impact the scoring... so to me they probably should stay away from the riders and gossip in the lead-up to the event.
Not mentioned is how they docked Brendan for not having a flip variation on his 2nd flip a bit too harshly, and under scoring the first solid run of the show.
100% #brendoggotrobbed
It was rad to see TVS fully back to good health for this event. But I do compare his run to Semenuk last year. And Semenuk's 2nd major feature was insanely exposed for bronze. TVS rode strong but silver was a gift this year. Carson... did a huge 3.
Bienve won the crowd, and that was cool. His big 3 features were the best because he kept linking from there too. He will nail the top section next year!
  • 12 2
 Fans can complain all they want, without fans these events don't make $$$…all the sports channels are filled with programming with flavour of the day topics and hot takes and people screaming nonsense, all in the name of entertainment…

Replying to whining fans didn’t sway any of them and only made it look like it bothered the judges that people though they were wrong… You need to have thick skin and a short memory to be a judge, referee, umpire etc…
  • 26 5
 @Phillyenduro:
The judging categories are:
1. Difficulty (danger, I guess)
2. Amplitude
3. Control
4. Fluidity, Tricks and Style

Just comparing Zink to Brendog - both of whom laid down epic runs - Zink's drop in line vs the battleship score comparably on difficulty; Zinks hits on average outscored on amplitude; both had great control with Zink's only obvious bobble being the flip slightly off line and Brendog had some sniper precision in his line too; both had great style, the flip drop is more technical than the sui as far as the run bangers and I'd have to argue more top-to-bottom fluidity at a higher speed. I think the point spread makes it seem like more of a gap than people will accept.

Storch and TVS? Again, top to bottom flow, more tricks on consistently large features, the caveman was high technicality and the oppo tricks score for both difficulty and tricks/style.

So yeah, at the time it didn't feel right but the results, in rank order, aren't that far off. I just think if the scores for 1-4 were in the 92-86 range people would be less annoyed.
  • 1 2
 @northernwig: i consider it "poaching" unless a dig deal is made
  • 24 6
 @slickwilly1: If you do a shit job judging and people stop watching because you make it look rigged, you're failing at your job. As you said, fans and the hosting company make the event what it is. Not the riders, not the judges.
  • 25 1
 @southshorepirate: the main issue with the criteria is the absence of 'originality' as a defining factor. If you are riding a second hand line/feature you should get marked down. its a freeride event so isnt originality a thing to aspire to? It would level the playing field between those riders doing a second year line (therefore being able to bigger/burlier) and those having to start new.
  • 7 7
 Well, to answear your question - basically yes, you have to risk your life to win the Rampage. Zink risked his life right from the start of his line - this cliff he is riding on the top is just as crazy as battleship, and he is sliding down there with his back tire locked and than dropping on another battleship and then doing huge drop on a wery narrow ridge line, then risking his life doing the biggest flatspin back flip ever and than risking again doing huge 360. TVS also risking life rigth from the start - if you dont catch your pedals doing that caveman, you are dead! And than again doing 360 on a cliff side and mega backflip! Storch almost went to the hospital on his first flip - you can see him going a bit sideways and the consequences would be really bad - right after this heart attach he keeps on going doing 360 on the cliff and then mega 360 gain. It's like - yeah i loved the Brendog's line a lot, it was the coolest line out there - but you cannot take that form those guys. Their line was also super cool and they were actually willing to do the unthinkable!
  • 3 5
 @Phillyenduro: Well you can look at it like they are pushing riders to more risk. Or! That riders who are willing to do more risky stuff are simply better riders - they are more confident in their skill and experience, they got their tricks so spot on so they can do them even on a sketchy feature. How else do you want to separate the best from the rest? That's what every freeride event is and always was about. Do more risky stuff! Only that the Rampage is on just another level.
  • 6 3
 @brianpark: The fact that he even tackled this thing is unbelievable and that's obviously still not enough. Maybe a double back flip suicide now hander blindfolded on a bmx bike will be enough for the podium next time. If he comes back at all.
  • 5 3
 @brianpark: words: International Judging Panel. We need to eliminate bias as much as possible. How has an international event like Rampage not implemented this?
  • 8 2
 @EchoLimaTwoOne: Came here to say this - and yet Bienve's front - twice - is NOT podium contention? Never been done. Not landing = death. Seems like the highest risk move of the event, by a longshot.

Cam was scored a full 15 points lower than Cam. All respect to Cam too - it was a thriller, but 15 full points more than Bienve? Doesn't compute at all.
  • 9 1
 @squarewheel: And those were all scrabbly landings w/ massive dropoffs with even a little washout... seems far more risky that yet-another-backflip on yet-another-ride of the same cushy center lines that have been buffed, waxed and pimped for years. What DB and the others don't seem to acknowledge is how much the carpet doesn't match the drapes - he's right, our eyeballs would explode, but the onsite fans, RB watchers and PB polls instantly went to Bienve & Brendog, but the judges results don't go near that. Bienve scored a full 15 pts lower than Cam. Obviously we "can't possibly understand" what the judges do, and he's right, but its the canyon gap difference in what we're seeing and what they're judging that seems so bizarre - so if the product doesn't ring true w/ the customer...it looks like theft.

And also #brendoggotrobbed
  • 3 0
 @snomaster: Well said. I ultimately don't care who "won" - all these guys rule, and this event is amazing enough. It just doesn't compute visually to Rampage viewers (ie "the customers") to see Cam win and Bienve (or Bren) scoring 15 points lower on what look like make-it-or-die moves, regardless of what came before or after that.

Just saying - the real canyon gap is the difference in what judges give and what fans are seeing...and when that has to be explained over & over, there's a problem w/ the judging, in my view.
  • 4 1
 @southshorepirate: Seems like the canyon gap is that - the difference in scores. Say Bienve was within 1-2 points...Id' still think he had a better line & run, but it wouldn't seem so ridiculous.

Bienve scoring a full 15 below Cam when Bienve's move made anyone watching grow hair on their chest? Purely insane - the consequences of failure was death. Nothing in Cam's run looked death defying, just looked like another run (and granted I couldn't do any of it). Just saying what we're seeing & how judges score doesn't look like we're watching the same thing.
  • 4 4
 @Mtn-Goat-13: After I re-watched some runs and considered DB's input vs the official criteria the scoring makes more sense. It isn't perfect, but it doesn't seem as out of line as it felt watching the live broadcast.
  • 9 6
 @Mtn-Goat-13: If Cam came up short, went long, or was blown by the wind on that drop, he would have been in the hospital at a minimum. Flipping something that fast and massive is insane. Let's not forget his drop was 60 ish feet out (only 10 less than the canyon gap) and had a vertical drop of at least 30 feet. The consequences are much higher for that going wrong. The speed coming out of it on landing was much higher than the canyon gap. Beinve proved the safety net of being able to go deep on the canyon gap and walk away (as have people in the past, including Zink). Rewind a few years to when TVS' front flip attempt on the canyon gap went wrong. He walked away from it. On a similar note, when TVS flipped his step down two years ago, and went a bit deep and as a result, over rotated, he had a possible career ending/ life altering injuries. Cam Zinks flip step down was even bigger, and only would have had a worse outcome had it gone wrong.
  • 6 0
 @brianpark: Mcgarry was robbed by the judges after flipping the canyon. Remember that?
  • 14 1
 @leon-forfar: If Cam, if Cam, if Cam... Stop it.
You can put an IF to every rider. No one is saying Cam did nothing special. It is just that Bienve did a world first. And many (including myself) think that Brendog's run was more exposed. DB can long talk about how minor this battle ship gap jump was, maybe, but the consequences of this feature where lethal. And things like this play a huge roll in doing it. You would also easily balance on the curb of a sidewalk, but would you do it on a multi-storey building? Hence this is consequences and this has to be rewarded.
Then DB talks about the well “paved” run in and out of Bienve’s canyon gap. I agree to this, but for what I have seen, this also applies for Cam’s step down. So again Brendog’s canyon gap was the most exposed of the three main jumps. The run in is just insane. Rumour has it, that many riders did not believe the Brendog canyon gap was possible to ride nor do they dare to jump it. But it is only 4th place? And then the minor difference between Carson and Brendog, just looks very staged, given the bandwidth of points for all riders given this year.
The questions DB did not answer:
- Why did Bienve’s run score so low because of the very well shaped feature but Brendog was not rewarded if this is a criterion for the judges? (Also Cam’s step down is very well shaped)
- Why did Bienve’s second run (the one he finished) only get 0.61 points more than his first run.
- What exactly gave Carson 0.34 points more over Brendog?
- The same goes for Kyle, why did he get 0.75 over Emil?

Things like this lead to suspicions about favouring individuals, bias against non North Americans or against riders sponsored by other energy-drinks.
  • 4 6
 @squarewheel:

Brendog as 3 main hits in his run : Battleship, Canyon gap, Step down, they're not linked with very steep or exposed terrain, as opposed to Zink that basically dive in the center of the face. His entrance, double drop and Oakley sender are all linked with very steep terrain and big gaps.

Please do not make me say what I don't : Brendog's line stays one of the most extreme lines at rampage.

Regarding your questions, I think here is a few thoughts to reflect on :

1- Cam Zink step down is very well shaped because otherwise it would be impossible to jump succesfully. That being said, the run in is extremely technical (big step down to big step up, blind take off), and he has to turn slightly right before jumping the Oakley sender, which makes it a very technical move. Let alone the landing, which as to be snipped (if you don't, consequences are very severe, let alone the fact that he flips it). Therefore the run in to Cam's oakley sender is way more difficult to approach than Bienve's canyon gap.

Without tricks, Bienve's line rank probably in the least diffcult, while Cam's line rank in the most diffcult.

2-3-4- As said many time, the points don't matter that much, but the ranking position is more important. If the judges believe that the overall run doesn't match the riders run ranking above it, it will not progress that much if the scorings are tight to keep the ranking position right.

Bienve second run is the same as the first one, but cleaner, and he doesn't throw the bike away on the last jump, so not much points are gained.

Carson as more technical tricks in his line, I believe the judges here were waiting for Brendog to spice his line a bit more to go for 2 or 3rd place (which he would probably have, flipping the canyon gap for exemple). Looking at the tight scoring between TVS, Storch and Brendog, all three could have and up 2nd, 3rd or 4th depending on their commitment to their lines.

Emil got probably a "mellowish" line, while Kyle had a more engaging line. The freeride nature of Kyle's line put him in front, but the technicality of Emil doing his tricks was almost enough to match Strait's run. He woul've probably bested him if he didn't throw it away on the last hip.
  • 1 2
 @Mtn-Goat-13: You keep bringing up the 15 point difference, but judges have said event after event that the points number doesn't mean anything. They're literally there to give space to slide riders into, whether they up their run significantly enough to move places, that opened up a ton of room to slide riders in between 1st and 2nd, with enough space for anyone to also go above Cam had the run been gnarly enough to top it. Don't get hung up on the number when it's the Placing that is actually important.
  • 1 0
 @southshorepirate: Dunno why yr getting Chinese & Russian downvoted on your comment - totally legit. I also rewatched & def think Cams run was "better" in light of DB's comments, etc. but... ulimately does still look like a typical run I've seen 20 times over the past 5-7 yrs while Bienve's looks completley insane. Still, all the better w/ all these comments. Shy of the petty keyboard warrior stabbing, it helps form an opinion.
  • 2 1
 @Joyrode: Yep, and def still will b/c points actually do represent judges opinions. Maybe I missed DB saying that but if points didn't mean anything there wouldn't be any at all and Bren or Bien would've scored just under Cam - recall that Bienve only got another point after his second even better run so while judges may say this and perhaps its true - it doesn't look or ring true to me. I get placing but...gulp...8th, on canyon front flips with a missing being probable death? Points or placement: doesn't compute.
  • 3 0
 @leon-forfar: Hear ya (and didn't d-vote you either). That's all massive stuff, no doubt. Bren & Bien (or in fact anyone) could've also been blown off by a gust but that 40? 50? ft wall below the landing looked more like death than just a heli-lift. Cam was also inches away from totally wiping out on that 2nd (?) backflip and that's truly insane. Its all insane for sure but DB's and in fact, no one's explanation (combine with 1000's of PB fans here) saying Bienve's run looked sicker is still more compelling to me. I still get it, but even after re-watching those top runs, I still don't get how Bienve is 8th in scoring or placment. Its a 2+2=5 scenario and I just don't agree. Even then: just an event & not a hill to die on - the explanations, well said as they are, just don't get me.
  • 2 0
 @squarewheel: Pretty much this. I looked at Cam's landing again & again - looked as "paved" as Bienve's landing. Also who are we kidding - there's no more raw oldskool singletrack lines up on this thing anymore, so the also-irony of people talking about the judges rewarding oldskool solid moves vs. newskool stuff like Jackson or Emils seems to hit the wall because anytime riders pull out oldschool lines (like what Bren did in 2019) they are penalized for it.

World 1st canyon front - twice -with a gust of wind or messup being death? That's a solid 8th place to me - and the second run should only get one more point that the 1st run. Just. Doesn't. Compute.
  • 1 0
 @vinay: yep. This suggestion comes up every year. Why not just wait until all runs are done and then just give us a score sheet? They seem to think it adds excitement as we wait for each score but to be honest it's tedious and slow. I'd rather just watch the next rider. And they're always unwilling to give big score for an early run.
  • 195 48
 Downvote me all day but the caveman drop in shouldn’t be scored as highly today as it was a couple years ago when TVS and Semenuk first did it. It’s cool yeah, but it’s also kinda corny and it took him 5 minutes to wait for the wind to be ideal which really killed the excitement.
  • 149 23
 I thought it was cool when Brandon did it, but not like, world shattering. But being there this year changed my perspective on that top section. You could not pay me a million dollars to caveman off that thing. Absolutely not. It's horrible. No photo or video will do justice to the amount I didn't want to be there when I looked over the edge. Gun to my head I'd probably rather try the Battleship.
  • 59 31
 If you wouldnt mind quickly uploading your video of a caveman, just so we all have a point of reference for your criticism.
  • 52 0
 Riders have waited for the wind to chill for years and years. Including other riders this year. It is a buzzkill, but he should be docked points for using his start window? I don’t think so. I think they need that window.
  • 17 3
 No, absolutely. I think there should be diminishing returns for something like that. Bonus points for originality (like front flipping the canyon gap), maybe.
  • 40 6
 @onawalk: I can’t score on an NHL goalie either, or know how to drive an F1 car. I suppose fans shouldn’t have opinions eh
  • 10 3
 What caveman drop? All I saw was a ninja drop.
  • 10 32
flag onawalk (Oct 16, 2023 at 12:09) (Below Threshold)
 @drakefan705: but you can score on a house league goalie, and prolly drive a car real fast.
You cant, I imagine caveman off a smaller drop, much less one into the abyss that TVS does....

You can have an opinion, but dont get upset when its called out as silly.
  • 3 44
flag onawalk (Oct 16, 2023 at 12:16) (Below Threshold)
 @brianpark: Not gonna lie, you had me in the first part of that comment.....Friggin jumping off a platform, and trying to get on your bike, into that steep trench, with the wind howling seems like the biggest leap of faith ever (intended)

The fact that you went the year thinking that Semenuks caveman wasnt earth shattering is a testament to how far away from reality youve gotten....
  • 5 6
 @brianpark: Exactly. That section right there is insane. And the cave man thing was TVS thing in the first place. I'm stoked he got it in. That was personal for him.

Still think a whip cave man woulda broke the internet though.
  • 6 14
flag onawalk (Oct 16, 2023 at 12:26) (Below Threshold)
 @brianpark: Apologies,
I might be feeling spicy today
  • 21 2
 @drakefan705 i get what you're saying...I can't dunk on a 10ft goal but I can still give an observation about the aesthetics of a plain dunk VS a tomahawk 360 dunk. You don't have to be able to ride the line to have an opinion about it. Haters gonna hate.
  • 1 1
 @preach: That's what the viewers awards are for and all the other awards that can be honored based on one section, one trick, one skillset....
  • 7 21
flag cuban-b (Oct 16, 2023 at 12:41) (Below Threshold)
 @drakefan705: having an opinion is fine. knowing what you're talking about is something else Wink
  • 8 3
 I mean- imagine what it might feel like standing on top of a platform, holding your bike, jumping off into the abyss with the clear understanding that if you fail to get your feet on that bike and it lined up below you to gain control before the bottom of that pitch you might not be stopping until you are dead. I think on camera it doesn't capture what is happening well- especially not when TVS lands it so smoothly and just carries on with the run- but it is insane. I get the juggling based on armchair quarterbacking of value and the emotion of feeling like your favourite thing was not others favourite thing... but I think people should keep in perspective that very little of what the top guys did was short of perception bending based on the level of risk and skill. Respect and appreciation to all the athletes.
  • 1 0
 @brianpark: but similar to what claw said, if it was on a forest path it wouldn't be easy but it wouldn't be hard.
  • 9 1
 What I appreciated about Brandon's approach is that he did it with ZERO hesitation. Maybe the wind just happened to be absolutely perfect in that moment, but he just went for it. Also his chute was way more blown out from other riders, and that elevated that run above TVS this year for me. Not to take anything away from TVS, but I was confused as to how it scored so high.
  • 7 11
flag scott-townes (Oct 16, 2023 at 18:49) (Below Threshold)
 @preach: That's a dumb comparison because we've all stood on a basketball court. You and these critics have clearly never stood at the top of this venue. You have no friggen clue how gnarly those lines are.
  • 4 1
 There's a kids' slide not too far from me that I've done where you sit on a ledge, then drop off it and freefall like 10 feet into a slide transition then shoot out horizontally at the bottom which is like 40 feet down from the ledge, so it's basically *exactly* the same as the caveman drop (other than the rocks and no bike), so I'm pretty sure I'm qualified to pass expert judgement on this matter. (/s in case you hadn't figured that out.)
  • 5 0
 @scott-townes: in fact I have. When our family trekked out to Zion about 5 years ago.
  • 9 1
 @brianpark: based off how many years everyone rode around the battleship as an entrance line feature choosing not to hit it. But second year and same trick on the caveman drop in and a completely different ride copying the same trick. Battleship should have scored higher.
  • 1 10
flag scott-townes (Oct 17, 2023 at 18:23) (Below Threshold)
 @failed: That's the dumbest shit I've read today.
  • 1 7
flag onawalk (Oct 17, 2023 at 19:51) (Below Threshold)
 @scott-townes: I dont always agree with you, but I'll second that comment.
Thats some pretty weak justification there @failed
  • 5 0
 @onawalk: DB has battle ship as mellow feature if anywhere else just awkward, but rates high for exposure. If its truly that mellow of a feature with how good all of these riders are everybody on that side should have hit it for years as a way to bump exposure score for their entire line rather than stick to goat path around. They've all seen it for years. TVS rode the landing chute for caveman drop 2022 last year on his line Brandon did a caveman into TVS chute from the top 2022. Caveman was done before, line was built a prior year, its a manmade prefab drop, if wooden start platform wasn't there wouldn't be a feature. Compare TVS and Carson other than caveman entrance exact same line Carson had a flip higher up, they both 360d next drop big drop TVS backie Carson 360, Carson then Backflips and tables while TVS straight airs. Your telling me that the caveman is going to score your line 2 complete points higher even if you do 3 fewer tricks than another rider on the same line.
  • 1 0
 @failed: Did TVS line score higher?
  • 1 0
 @failed: No one bothered to even look at it as a feature in years past because it just looked like a ridiculous rock formation that didn't make any sense to ride, it was a big undertaking to make it remotely rideable, stacking up a ton to build a lip, and chopping a ton off the top to make it somewhat safe enough to land on. Also being the main ride line around it to access half the venue, it just wasn't considered an option. Once it was built in, it was definitely less crazy than everyone first expected. Sure the exposure is risky, but it was 100% a simple feature if you can blank out the risk of messing up on it. Brendog's score was definitely bumped significantly by riding it, but the whole run was missing hits that it needed to win on the day. An actual drop off the rock face after the battleship, maybe a jump along the ridgeline, and a proper jump, rather than a flyout to uphill, after the stepdown flip, would have made up the missing spots in the run. You can't win Rampage these days without a jam packed line with multiple hits.
Brendan and team are master marketers with their Youtube content and obviously won a lot of people over with that, but those people aren't being objective past that fact, and have more bias than the judges at this point
  • 1 1
 @Joyrode: Is there a possibility that in years past, it was past up for bigger, more trick worthy features?
Using the same venue for multiple years, means that the riders/diggers have to look for newer and unridden features.
Time, availability, course selection, trick ability, all these factor in to why something might not be used one year, then several years later becomes a feature, simply because the rest of the lines are already fairly dialed and ready to use
  • 160 9
 But I want to be mad!
  • 19 8
 Like any and all made for TV events, the more drama the more exposure the better. Still, won't hurt to have a new panel of judges
  • 49 37
 It’s weird that he didn’t mention having to be one of his mates or North American… I’d love him to talk us through that part
  • 41 0
 You can transfer your rage to his decision to present to camera while driving
  • 36 66
flag cuban-b (Oct 16, 2023 at 12:40) (Below Threshold)
 Bearclaw offered up a good explanation when he didnt even need to - never complain, never explain. good on him to be empathetic to you pathetic nobodies. deal with it. life goes on. in a week all you whiners will forget about it and move on to the next shiny object that you cant control. oh, and get a job lmfao....
  • 18 6
 @cuban-b: USA....USA.....USA
  • 8 21
flag cuban-b (Oct 16, 2023 at 13:38) (Below Threshold)
 @JamesE420: 'mericuh fck yah
  • 21 1
 @cuban-b: stunned when i saw your username want scott townes
  • 5 5
 @enduroNZ: lol "North American", we're always doing favors for our fellow continent dwellers, just ask someone from Mexico.
  • 9 0
 @cuban-b: get a job? You obviously don’t rock OneUp Components.
  • 1 0
 MEt too - it makes for better Rampaging
  • 5 1
 @JamesE420: Doesn't represent me! But cuban's and scott clownes hyperbolic bomb-throwing DO represent the teens & tweens that are texting from the stoplight in dad's BMW... they live in every nation.
  • 1 0
 @barcolounger: Mexico is in North America.
  • 196 47
 #brendoggotrobbed
  • 158 10
 "And you just have to trust us on that."

Oh, this should go over well.
  • 9 84
flag cuban-b (Oct 16, 2023 at 12:43) (Below Threshold)
 what credentials do you have that tells us you're right and he's wrong? go on. we're all anxiously waiting
  • 6 7
 ....
  • 69 2
 When I watch a movie, I never form an opinion, because frankly I've never made one myself. Also when I go to the museum, I can't like the Van Gogh better than a Caravaggio because I wasn't there to help them I I can't paint real good. I'm also butt ugly so I have no idea what a beautiful person looks like. Thats why I always follow our leaders blindly, no matter where they may lead us.
  • 30 1
 @uponcripplecreek: Caravaggio mentioned on Pinkbike, what a beautiful times we live in 3 , props mate!
  • 118 13
 Find a way of giving that insight before and during the event and all the howls of protest will go away.
  • 24 8
 NOt a chance, in fact, I think Bear has in fact responded several times over the years about people and their constant whinging
  • 15 0
 @HankHank = They might diminish, but go away? Nope. People have really visceral reactions to this event, and they hate being told that they simply don't have the experience/knowledge or real life perspective to make an informed judgment and should trust the judges.
  • 19 10
 Jesus they talked about the lines non -stop during the event. How many times do we need to hear "video doesn't do it justice" We all know shit looks mellow on camera
Do people need the claw to come sit next to them and explain everything like they're 5 so they dont feel sad that someone got scored too low?
  • 5 2
 @StanMarsh: This used to be a free event, so how about letting it be back to one. alike Redbull doesn't make enough money as it is. More people will come, including me and then hopefully that'll shut up the masses just like Joyride. Everyones happy, everyones chilln just enjoying the event.
  • 2 6
flag onawalk (Oct 16, 2023 at 12:11) (Below Threshold)
 @StanMarsh: Yes,
more so what "they" need is to have their own opinions and beliefs validated and told they are special.
  • 61 15
 There’s absolutely no way he can’t talk his way out of not putting Brendon on at least the podium. I’ll listen to why he shouldn’t have won, fine but won’t entertain the idea of a 4th place finish. Truth is no one cares what he thinks, all the judges have done again is soiled another brilliant rampage. We decide the winner anyway and we all decided Brendon won… Again.
  • 4 7
 @StanMarsh: Hear me out,
If everyone is riding nearly the same terrain, wouldnt the line that still "looks" the gnarliest be the gnarlisest?

We are comparing people all riding at virtually the same time, on nearly identical terrain. We arent watching a video segments from all sorts of different people at different times, in different locations....

I'm of the belief that Zinks flip off that Icon sender was absolutely huge, and maybe one of the biggest scene in a competition. Similar to Lemonies huge gap at Crankworks
  • 8 22
flag cuban-b (Oct 16, 2023 at 12:37) (Below Threshold)
 if they offered an explanation prior to the event:
- nobody will pay attention or listen, because they werent going to anyway.
- armchair quaterbacks will still be mad even if they listened.
- oh, and whoever really gets upset.... get a fckng job FFS
  • 5 11
flag onawalk (Oct 16, 2023 at 12:39) (Below Threshold)
 @gearbo-x: You think RedBull is out getting rich off this super niche event in the desert, thats tough to get to, tough to watch, and fairly remote?
I can only assume you went several times when it was free, and now the cost of entry is whats holding you back, not the cost to get there, stay there, travel to and from the venue, etc?

What do you think pays for medical coverage, food service, logistics, prizes etc?

You wont go if its free, anything and everything is a barrier to entry for you
  • 6 13
flag onawalk (Oct 16, 2023 at 12:45) (Below Threshold)
 @thenotoriousmic: "There’s absolutely no way he can’t talk his way out of not putting Brendon on at least the podium"

This sentence has me all frigged up, do I need some sleep?

"There’s absolutely NO way he CAN'T talk his way out of NOT putting Brendon on at least the podium"

I....I'm not getting it, am I crazy, what are you saying here bruv?
  • 5 2
 Geoff Gulevich was hired to do just that and did so throughout the whole show.
  • 2 1
 @onawalk: uhh thats Claw, not Bear. (wrong brother Wink )
  • 2 3
 @TwoSixTakeover: Apologies all around,
You understood who i meant right?
  • 6 3
 @onawalk: he's just trying to stay relevant like all of older freeriders.
  • 5 1
 @gearbo-x: Despite what you see on the hill, it's a fragile ecosystem. If the masses come they will destroy the area. Must restrict number and make it a ticketed event. Utah Sports Commission loves the publicity, but this is right outside a national park.
  • 1 1
 @taskmgr: Arent we all?
  • 14 16
 @g-42: This is really a good response to what's happening in everyday life these days. Everyone thinks they're an expert in every-f*cking-thing and for some reason all think their opinions matter and everyone should give a shit.

Frankly, Darren, Pinkbike, Redbull and everyone else involved shouldn't bother giving these idiots attention they don't deserve, really they should just do what all 90's dads did, tell the whining kids to shut up and go mow the lawn.... then make them some hamburger helper cause mom took too many Xanax's again.
  • 7 13
flag mtnbkrmike (Oct 16, 2023 at 15:04) (Below Threshold)
 @islandforlife: What I don’t understand is why all these posters seem to think they have the God given right to demand to make the rules. Get Ben Cathro in there for a course walk. Let the riders vote. Let the people vote. Let the riders and people vote. Replace the judges.

News alert: you have no right to demand anything. If you don’t like it, do a hard pass next year. This is not your gig. You are an invited guest.
  • 5 1
 They quite literally had a part of the pre-comp broadcast on exactly how the judges were going to judge...and that they went out and measured everything. Smh.
  • 5 0
 @onawalk: Ah, the unprecedented triple negative.
  • 9 0
 @islandforlife: Not a bust here at all but you also (or you wouldn't post (?) I'm hardly an expert - but the comment thread here is for opinions, right or wrong and I approach it specifically to get all the other thoughts I"m not thinking - even if I think they're f*cked up.

As I've been rambling here, I think the main problem is that what fans are seeing on the ground and on TV doesn't seem close to judges scoring anymore - it looks confusing. It never looked this far apart until the past 4-5 years (and I've watched every Rampage and 3 of them live).

So sure - Cam wins. Great run but Bienve scores 15 full points below (?). This doesn't even compute w/ DB's statement. Clearly judges are ballers & do know 99% of things we don't but the gap in their scoring with our viewing now looks fishy and I'll wager that if Bren & Bienve's scores were even close to Cam's vs wildlife far away from them (for what looked like a typical Cam run I've seen 5 times already) - there'd be less head scratching over the judging.
  • 5 0
 @Mtn-Goat-13: that’s because the event has never had the coverage it has now before. On the week up to the event we see everything, everyone’s putting their builds up on YouTube, we know everything about everyone’s line. The community is just much more informed than it’s ever been before and we’re not so easily fooled.
  • 7 0
 @thenotoriousmic: I hear your take I think that's a good point. Still, having watched every rampage & a few on the ground since inception I can tell you for sure that the difference in what the judges are offering up now and what fans are seeing on the ground and TV is vastly bigger than it ever was. Given that there are now millions and millions of bike fans rather than a few 10,000 like when rampage started, you would think the gap in our perception of the event would be getting smaller and not vastly bigger

Still, I think the fans spoke loud and clear, almost 10,000 votes on pink bike alone for Bren & Bien and sure, thats just us but it still speaks volumes to what was witnessed.
  • 2 1
 @Mtn-Goat-13: Do you think there are millions and millions of bike fans watching Rampage?

Heres what I quickly found, full disclosure, I didnt go too deep. Peak viewership of 2022, 57k.
I think we all think mountain biking is a bigger deal than it is, its pretty friggin niche

escharts.com/tournaments/sport/red-bull-rampage-2022
  • 3 0
 @onawalk: Of course not - I don't imagine "millions and milions" of Rampage views, I'm just talking about riders in general. But - its still about 20x+ times bigger than you're suggesting.

The live view doesn't tell the whole story. Just search RB Rampage on youtube & you'll see 1M views for this year alone and 1.2M from 2022. Maybe some of that is double viewing but the utlimate viewship is far, far greater than 57K so yeah - niche, but still pretty big.

RB has 2.25M subscribers, over 23,000 shares just for the 2023 video. Not sure of the PB poll #'s as of today, but just Bren & Bienve easily scooped 90-95% of the "who should've gotten 1st place" vote...something like 9000 of 10,500 votes. That's a sign, but again - just a sliver of riders here.
  • 1 0
 @Mtn-Goat-13: As a note, I didnt really suggest viewership that was larger or smaller, just a quick google search of viewership.
I will suggest that mountain biking, in general is smaller than we might think, and going even deeper in the different genres, its gets smaller still.
Typically here in NA, especially in the PB comment section we are focused on the gravity side of things, and actual viewership/interest of that pales in comparison to XC, road, even CX events worldwide.

YouTube hits are a strange metric to me, so many ways to "game" that system through autoplay, different short view formats, bots, etc

As a side note, everyone involved benefits from any sort of controversy surrounding these types of events, the riders, the advertisers, the hosts, everyone. Something to keep in mind when people are riled up about rider placement in a niche event, for a bunch of mountain bikers in the desert
  • 1 0
 @onawalk: Legit, and yeah it's easy to think that as much as I love freeride / DH and rowdy stuff that it's a blip bs road / xc etc... esp w/ the dork looks / lids & such (Im an opinionated ass, just my take). So yeah, small in comparison.

Just still not computing Bren & Bien being nearly 8 and 15+ less than Cam, even w/ the obvious knowledge the judges have. Are-watched all those runs & they're all sick... and this ain't a hill I'm gonna die on, just a curiosity / conundrum that makes me scratch my head too much.
  • 89 10
 I personally find it super respectable that a judge addressed the controversy exactly and sure scores will never make everyone happy but I now have a much greater understanding of the reality of this event and the technically of judging it
  • 10 0
 Hell of a lot better than boxing where nobody says anything at all about the judging, since the judges are just appointed by the commission and have never boxed in their lives. I think Brendog should have podiumed, but I'm not too up in arms about Zink winning
  • 7 40
flag cuban-b (Oct 16, 2023 at 12:46) (Below Threshold)
 the continued complaining after the claw's explanation is the main reason these animals are unemployed. time + no money = pinkbike plebes.
  • 21 0
 @cuban-b: we’ll with this comment I think you’ve just joined the group your complaining about.
  • 1 22
flag cuban-b (Oct 16, 2023 at 13:40) (Below Threshold)
 @cypher74: oi you shoulda went with "pot calling the kettle black". at least be clever. youll get a job soon. i believe in you
  • 17 0
 @cuban-b: you do seem to be fixated by this job insult.
Is there something you need to talk over with someone?
  • 2 16
flag cuban-b (Oct 16, 2023 at 13:53) (Below Threshold)
  • 15 0
 @cuban-b: don’t be upset.

Have nice relaxing drink, maybe avoid alcohol and caffeine, lie down somewhere quiet, shut your eyes and takes some nice deep breaths.
  • 4 0
 @NailsAndTrails: at least in boxing you get to see each judges score cards.
  • 5 1
 @samfr1000: doesn't really make a difference, you just get to see the rigjob as it unfolds. Still can't do anything about it. Some of the judges are legit blind
  • 6 0
 @cypher74: Was gonna say this. Apparently @cuban-b thinks this is Ziprecruiter

But haveou seen stats for poverty (etc) in Alabama? Maybe the guy has PTSD? Profile does say he's 12 so in Alabama I guess he's been working already for about 4-5 years? The southern states roll that way.
  • 92 15
 "The Battleship just wasn't that hard to ride" WTF?
I totally disagree with DB's assessment of that, as it's a total Mind-F*%k. You could use the same arguement to say 'Anyone can launch it off a giant jump', as that's not hard to do either, DB. But, managing the mental pressurecooker of the instant death exposure of the Battleship is not something most people could even handle.
  • 42 2
 It’s odd he said that. Coverage of the lead up was full of riders saying how gnarly and exposed it was.
It was hyped up by everyone as a key part of Szymon and Brendan’s runs. If the judges thought it was no big thing it’s a big shock to find out days after the event
  • 27 12
 @raytheotter: I think you guys are missing his point. He said it was hard to weigh how to score it because the exposure is nuts but the move itself is minor. Think of it this way: On flat ground, that move was like bunnyhopping over a gap in a sidewalk. Not a maneuver that requires much skill. But with the exposure, it becomes very high consequence and takes serious guts. He was explaining why it was hard to assess from a judging stand point. I think it's a fair point.
  • 10 5
 I was curious how they were going to judge the battleship. If the gap were on flat ground with nothing around it, you could have complete amateurs hitting it. It’s simply not big. Awkward maybe, but not big or difficult. The one and only thing that makes it gnarly is the exposure. If you’re mentally able to ignore the exposure, it’s a great feature for your line.

It’s also worth considering that the judges themselves likely fall into the “able to ignore the exposure” category. Darren obviously does.

I think he did a good job explaining this. It’s a feature that’s just simply difficult to score.
  • 23 1
 Plus look at how technical the run in was to Brendogs canyon jump - it was just nuts. The whole run was just dangerous, and then people question why he's not going to take a second run when he's 11 points back!?! People dismissing the risk like that is just crazy.
I feel that more explanation on how Zinks score was calculated would help to explain why there was such a disparity, and it's a shame as all this just takes away from what was am incredible run from him...
  • 47 1
 @BiNARYBiKE: It is not like a gap in a sidewalk. See this pic. ep1.pinkbike.org/p6pb25708297/p6pb25708297.jpg
  • 22 0
 @bikesandfun: F* me that's mental. MENTAL.
  • 4 14
flag BiNARYBiKE (Oct 16, 2023 at 16:45) (Below Threshold)
 @slimboyjim: you’re right I over exaggerated. But put it another way, my riding will never impress anyone but I’ve hit a lot of similar jumps… minus the exposure. I’m not downplaying it at all. Just saying I get where the judges are coming from. It’s all a part of why this whole debate is happening: because the lines and the moves are all really different and it’s hard to objectively say which one is “best”.
  • 27 1
 @slimboyjim: this is the one that doesn't make the most sense to me. Talks about rewarding big mountain lines and technicality, and that it's not a slopestyle event. That run in and canyon gap was so mental and challenging. But then says it scores low because oh all he did on it was a sui no hander.
  • 3 5
 You and the claw might perhaps see trail’s differently.
  • 16 3
 @slimboyjim: @slimboyjim: They can't explain it in a way that adds up to the score they gave. The score will not follow on from any framework they are supposed to follow. Or at least it won't add up when compared to the other scores they gave.

His explanation ,while appreciated, is nothing more than him trying trying to justify scores that just don't add up. They quite clearly judged the winning run differently than the others. They scored with their hearts and how stoked they were with the home boy doing a fantastic complete run.

I can't believe how he can go into the level of detail about the run in to Bren's gap being so much more difficult and complex to any other, but then discount the trick element because it was "one of the go-to tricks if you just want to nibble off a trick off a drop or a big gap". Piss off. He describes how it was difficult enough just to be able to take off and land the thing, but ONLY doing a suicide means barely any trick points, sorry but that's complete and utter horseshit. Why is the trick not weighted against the complexity of the feature?
  • 7 0
 @bikesandfun: batleship it was supertechnichal move... brendan case it first hit and godziek had to go all in no brakes... then adds the mental game...
  • 11 1
 You know - the 3-4 ft wide path with 200 ft drops on either side and its all scrabbly & dry.. typical Blue Flow trail.
  • 4 0
 @Mtn-Goat-13: Dude when you live and ride in the desert, everything is always dry and scrabbly. But I'll tell you I rode a Virgin Utah trail once with a "you fall you probably die" sort of section and even thought the trail itself wasn't that tricky I still look back and think it was one of the dumber things I've ever done.
  • 3 0
 @BiNARYBiKE: I know! I'm from western NC where the sketch is just wet roots & rocks, but man...that gravellly / scrabbly stuff scares me even more. Years of CO and some other dry areas and it still eff's me up... all respect to the Rampage ridres and anyone who rides that all the time. I'm sure ya get used to it though, but wet roots & rocks seems basic to me vs. gravel for sure.
  • 5 0
 @bikesandfun: Looks like my neighborhood side walk Razz
  • 7 1
 @BiNARYBiKE: Brendan said himself that he cased the landing onto the Battleship so hard he hurt his leg trying not to fall over the edge (he also said was a 'multiple broken femur' option) - on a move you say was "like bunnyhopping over a gap in a sidewalk" - you clearly have exaggeration down to a dull edge
  • 9 0
 @slimboyjim: Brendan said he didn't do a second run, because earlier in the day for practice he took a tremendous tumble, and the only thing he was thinking of adding in to his flip jump lower down his run was making it a flip-tuck-nohander. And it was his toddler daughter's birthday - add all that in, and he had no real reason to risk another run on arguably the most technically difficult route of Rampage....
  • 5 0
 @yoimaninja: did anyone see how his handlebars were yawing side to side as he did that suicide no-hander over the canyon? ho-lee-mo-lee
  • 2 0
 @dunnem8: exactly. They seem to choose when a trick matters as it suits them. We get told that lines matter but then apparently it was the Sui that was the key in Brendog's case... when he 'nibbled' over that canyon. I don't mean to downplay Zink's drop, it was awesome, but he backflipped it. It's a trick we see from every rider. Sorghe has won 3 times with nothing but backflips, so you can win with simple tricks on big features... can't you?
  • 90 24
 Love how he basically calls Brendan's no hander a nothing trick, but doesn't mention Cam Zink did a backflip nack over like the smallest jump on the mountain. When enough people are up in arms over a decision, and a judge feels he needs to make a video clarifying why they scored things the way they did, then maybe, just maybe, the judges screwed up.
  • 26 16
 Zink also did the highest-speed, gnarliest backflip drop of the competition
  • 25 4
 Comparing one guys top move with another guy’s minor move? Silly.
  • 10 0
 Zink didnt even trick the first 2 drops and step up. Just imagine for one second Semenuk hitting that line... getting 130 points then?
  • 4 0
 @ksilvey10: they should make a best trick category for stuff like that, when the rest of the run is boring.... oh wait.
  • 1 0
 Honestly. They just need to be more transparent with the scoring. They should have the breakdown available.
  • 1 0
 @PauRexs: same for Godziek - he was tricking absolutely everything up top. So he must have been in for a 110 at least.
  • 58 1
 The insight and detail given on BFs and Bienves lines were great. I'd love to hear the same analysis given to Zink's line and how it resulted in a score that was so much higher than the rest. If the gap in points were smaller then I think people could accept the "trust us, the devil is in the details" response a bit more, but a difference in scores that large begs an explanation.
  • 14 13
 They have said multiple times that the number isn't the important thing, rather the ranking is. He was scored high, because they needed to allow enough room for almost a full roster of second runs to possibly slip between 2nd place and Zink.
  • 19 2
 @leon-forfar: Suuuure, but then it's total nonsense to have scores like 86.88 points, because that suggests you've done some math and scoring like a traditional competition. But then if it's as you say then they're just making crap up to "leave room". Can't have it both ways. If the number isn't the important thing then bloody well don't make it such a key feature of the broadcast!
  • 7 9
 @nilswalk: you get decimals in the scores because they are averaging the scores given by each judge. The individual judges aren’t submitting that specific of a score. And the guy above is correct. The scores are done that way to leave room since Zink went early in round 2. If they put him in first by only a couple points and 4 guys come down with runs that should slot in behind him and the current 2nd place they have no way to score it. This is how almost all these type events are scored. If zink was last man down the score likely would not have been a 95.
  • 26 3
 @sino428: Sorry, that still makes no sense. You don't get 83.58 or 77.41 (actual scores this year) by dividing something by 4 or 5 or however many judges were there - you only get that weird of a number when you have a traditional scoring system with things like fractional degree of difficulty multipliers etc. Which then flies in the face of your "the cores are done that way on purpose to leave room". Which is it? Are you scoring each element of the run, modifying the trick by the degree of difficulty, adding them all up, throwing out the highest and lowest and averaging... or just making it up? Or worse, trying to do it "honestly" with a real scoring system but then after the final number comes out going "hrmmmm that's not quite high enough, let's multiply it by 1.24 to leave some room". You can't have it both ways.

Furthermore, there's no need to "leave room" by like 5 whole points anyway! Since the scores were all down to two whole decimal points, even if Zink only scored 0.2 points ahead of 2nd place there would be 19 whole "spots" to fit in between him and 2nd, should the need arise.

Not to mention that your argument for "leaving room" even implies that they'd already decided that a) Zink should get 1st and b) a bunch of other riders shold slot in between him and BF.

None of what you say makes any sense at all. And most of all... apparently the other riders didn't get the message since the score they gave Zink effectively ended the competition and the 3 riders behind him didn't even bother to try to best him.
  • 14 1
 @sino428: that sounds like the problem.
"lets give him scores so he remains in 1st, whatever the other guys do." its the definition of biased judging. what bs
  • 7 0
 This - the real canyon gap at Rampage this year was the judges scores vs. what fans saw on the ground or TV. I get it - these guys do know 99% more than us about this site & freeriding, period - but when the gap in the scores is this massive, but it doesn't compute to the viewer experience, it looks wrong. Its OK to say that it looks wrong. I get DB's explanation - but the same logic applied to Cam's or any other line doesn't seem to hold up.
  • 3 0
 @nilswalk: well said mate
  • 68 9
 Why is this event even judged? Let the riders vote.
  • 18 1
 Exactly, if the viewer can't understand the judging it's a shit concept.
  • 23 6
 I have a feeling that riders' votes would be quite biased too
  • 4 5
 One set of scores from the riders and one from the viewers and either aggregate them or award 2 trophies
  • 5 1
 let them all get together at the end with a beer and watch the runs and decide. Take the pressure off having to judge on the spot
  • 93 41
 When you checked the lines did you take your guide dog with you? Also care to elaborate how stoked everyone was when Zinc flipped it vs how calculated and calm the judges were when other riders threw their moves down.
On this one I really hopes the judges would’ve got it aligned with the spectators at home but it really didn’t happen, “so trust us” when we say #brendoggotrobbed
  • 8 21
flag joecrosby (Oct 16, 2023 at 14:16) (Below Threshold)
 Did you watch the video at all
  • 61 7
 He had some points but a lot of BS to IMHO
  • 79 37
 Darren is the man. It takes courage to come out and face the whole internet to justify something you shouldn't have to. Thank you anyway for you insight, its always interesting to get perspective from the inside. Thank you for stepping in and judging an event that is truly appart from the rest. Keep rippin'.
  • 35 21
 This is not what courage is, this does not take courage.
Just a dude justifying decisions after watching some rad off-road bicycle pilots in the desert.

Courage, is what was displayed by those riders.
Courage is what a firefighter displays when running into a burning building
Courage would be a disadvantaged youth working out of a life of violence and poverty

Courage is not justifying your actions as a judge of a freeride bike event.......its not "the whole internet", its a couple of people in the grand scheme of things, Jesus wept
  • 11 9
 I would rather have fans do an online poll to choose the winners than have these judges robbing the real winner. Change my mind.
  • 9 1
 @nickfranko: Please god no ! We would end up with messed up results given by poeple who don’t understand sh** about the scale of the event. Please breathe and take 5 minutes again to really listen what the Claw’s saying in his video.
  • 5 4
 @onawalk: Come one mate, have a bit of respect for the legends… you are talking of a « dude » that dropped in in multiple rampage finals since the early 2000´s and made 3rd place twice, while you were probably having a beer and watching him on TV.

Disclaimer : it’s maybe not the case for you, but IMO, the case of many poeple disrespecting the pilots and the judges on the rampage thread.
  • 4 2
 @Vraiphil: I in no way disrespected anyone, certainly not Bearclaw.
I am just noting that justification for a judging decision is not courageous, and the mere suggestion of it (by you) is pretty silly.
I have the utmost respect for the riders, and judges, photogs, vloggers, first aiders, volunteers, staff, families etc.....
I dont really care to much about the judging aspect, its a rad event, thats incredibly hard to ride, and judge. I couldnt do either, so I dont pretend to know who did it better than someone else

I been watching Rampage since Wade won, when we got a VHS of it to watch on loop at the shop.
  • 42 2
 @claw Thanks for the insight! I'm sure everyone would be interested to hear why Zink scored so high. Was it the backflip that pushed his score into the 90s? I believe Strait rode the same line and scored 11 points lower.

For future events, what are your thoughts about not releasing scores until everyone has completed their first run which would give the judges the opportunity to rank everyone accordingly?
  • 27 18
 Strait's top section wasn't quite the same, and Berrecloth kind of did explain his thoughts on the suicide not being as commitment-heavy a trick when he said "it's a pretty rad trick, but it's one of the go-to tricks if you just want to nibble off a trick off a drop or a big gap."
  • 27 18
 Backflipping off that flat drop with no lip is so much gnarlier. Plus Zink did multiple other things Kyle didn’t. I would like to better understand why Zink scored so high too, but comparing to Kyle isn’t very useful. All the complaining about Brenden… he had two other guys score higher, and he didn’t even take his second run. All respect to that insane canyon gap but I really can’t see how people can argue he should’ve won. He simply doesn’t have the trick bag in high consequence terrain that the guys in front of him have. Wish he would’ve landed on the podium or received one of the awards though for sure.
  • 11 3
 Their top sections were a bit different. You're also missing the cool nose bonk drop in Zink did. That drop in section was steep and tech as hell. The flip nack on a super tech hit. I did not expect anything there. He also 3 dropped. And that nack just before the 3 drop was super boosted and styled out. Loved it. He didn't have any meh sections of that run until he got to the bottom. Only thing dude could have maybe done is added a jump down there in the roll out section and did another trick but... not a slopesytle contest... I like the idea of holding scores until end of first run. But it could lead to a very long break which could potentially cost guys second runs.
  • 3 0
 YES! That is the solution !
  • 47 13
 No-handers served Kyle pretty well over the years! Seems like every reason for not scoring these 2 run’s as highly is contradicted when looking at Zink’s run. Could the step down jump landing be any bigger or manicured? It’s 2023, old guard judges and their criteria is out of touch IMHO.
  • 55 4
 Yeah when it comes to bienve slopestyle tricks shouldn't be rewarded, when it comes to zink slopestyle gets you big points haha! He then says the battleship is the highest risk feature to be done but if you take it out of context and it was in a forest it wouldn't be that difficult, so it gets a lower score... But it's not in a forest it's a mental feature on a cliff, at a minimum brendog should have been third. Not sure how he cleared anything up there tbh
  • 17 1
 Redbull OUTRAGE 2023….
  • 3 6
 @sampo18: Maybe go back and hear him again - he said that they scored battleship high! He is just talking about why it was difficult to score it, but they made the decision to give a high score for that feture. What u are kind of overlooking maybe is, that top section of Zink's line was also super exposed - that cliff that he is riding is just as crazy as battleship and Cam is sliding there with his back tire locked, than droping on another battleship and than doing super huge drop on a wery narrov ridge line. The camera angle there really didn't do it justice how crazy exposed his line was.
  • 9 2
 @ZAPa90: Nobody is complaining about Zink's run, I think we all agree here that he deserves a podium, what we can not comprehend is why Brendan or Bienve didn't.
  • 14 1
 @ZAPa90: you're misunderstanding, he says they scored it high as it was f*cking mental, but the fact taken out of context it's not risky makes it lose points. My reply to that is that it's retarded. Taking zinks drop out of context and making it a crash mat landing makes its easy but it doesn't make it lose points. So why are we taking points off other riders?

I'm not taking anything away from zinks madness but I think the scoring is quite clearly flawed when a lot of people even spectators at the arena are disagreeing with the outcome.
  • 4 7
 @salvafc: Well then maybe watch again TVS run and Storch? These guys were risking their life again and again from the beginning of their run! If TVS did a mistake with that caveman he is dead! Like really dead! Just a tiny mistake like sliping peddal and there is nothing stoping you from rolling down and breaking your neck! Then they both are doing mega 360s and backflips where consequences are hospital at least. I loved Brendan's line, it was the coolest line up there, but you cannot take it from those guys - they were willing to do unthinkable. Brendon to win would really need to flip that canyon and ad some 360 at the bottom or something like that. Otherwise it would be really unfair to these guys. And Bienve's sequence on canyon gap was amazing - got the best trick award for it - but there was nothing else to his run. He didn't show any skill riding steep technical terrain - I'm not saying he doesn't have that skill, but he didn't show it - and he was riding really slowly on the top, where his line wasn't even so technical. If he wantet to win, he should add some tricks on the top jumps and ride it faster.
  • 2 7
flag ZAPa90 (Oct 17, 2023 at 4:55) (Below Threshold)
 @sampo18: Well yeah, if it is more risky, you get extra points for it. It is not retarded, it is what this whole sport is about! Because maybe, just maybe - riders who are willing to do more risky stuff are simply better riders - they are more confident in their skill and experience, they got their tricks so spot on so they can do them even on a sketchy or bigger feature. How else do you want to separate the best from the rest? That's what every freeride event is and always was about. If you do a flip on a big jump - yeah it's cool - if you do it on a jump which is on the side of a cliff and landing is steep and loose, than you probably are better rider because you really believe to you skills.
  • 1 0
 @NikolaiB: I'm losing sleep over it here
  • 38 5
 I'm not qualified to comment on the judging but my personal preference, in a big-mountain riding event, is to see more big-mountain riding. In my opinion Fairclough's line had that. Seeing drops and jumps is cool, but pointing your bike down a steep chute and sticking it is, in my opinion, more exciting, not to mention technical, than another backflip.
  • 27 11
 If you like big mountain riding, Zink’s run should be your favorite. The top part of his run is the steepest gnarliest line on the mountain.
  • 7 3
 @dungeonbeast: his backflip off the drop (he almost went off the side of) was also very high speed and hard to set up for
  • 39 5
 Please compare Carson Storches run to Brendan Fairclough’s run and tell me how in the world Carson’s run scored better. That is impossible:: #brendoggotrobbed #brendoggotrobbed #brendoggotrobbed
  • 4 5
 Very different start, but actually comperable difficulty. Brandon going on battleship, styling it up with manual and stoppies. Carson going super fast this open left turn and shooting down the steepest section on the mountain. Both stylish, both technical, both similar points. Mid run: Brandon canyon supper gnarly, similar Carson doing his first flip - that jump is very technical witch dangerous landing, fliping that thing is crazy. Again similar points. Brandon than doing pretty big backflip and than backflip at the bottom. Carson doing similar size 360 but with more dificult landing, than doing mega 360 which is very dificult to get the rotation corect and than adds another big bacflip on bottom step down. So it was pretty close in my opinion, with Carsons mega 360 making the biggest difference.
  • 5 0
 Or TVS. His run was nowhere near the 2nd vest fmrun of the day. Would love to hear him explain the judging on that.
  • 11 0
 @ZAPa90: have you ever dug a new line; and as you were doing it you thought “oh man this thing is looking a little sketch”. But you continue because is looks epic and you and your dig team are rising to the challenge with every scoop of dirt? NO ONE HAS EVER RIDDEN IT BEFORE…so you have to really think it through(Lad Science), run up to it a bunch of times. Then finally you say fukit..just gotta send it and see what happens. Brendog was the only one with this kind of line. It is the essence of Freeride. To me if you have ridden something thats a proven line as compared to breaking new ground and tricking it while the whole world is watching you there is just simply no comparison.
  • 2 0
 @NikolaiB: I actually like your point there. Would love to see Rampage where riders are really riding new more natural lines. I was writing myself that it’s kind of ridiculous that riders are keeping their old lines, this might be the most unfair aspect of the competition. But than on the other hand I don’t believe that judges should change the whole score based on how much of the line is new and how much was made before. Like people who are saying that Bienve should won would be even more pissed becouse his line was ridden like 100 times, so his score should be even lower based on your opinion. I got your point and it would be great if they changed venue every other year, so riders would really ride new lines. It would be more fair also.
  • 4 2
 @ZAPa90: your first comment here sounds like the judges we are complaining about...
Aside from the battleship, Brendan's gap inrun to the canyon was arguably more gnarly than carson's drop in from the top.
We can also argue Brendan's 1st backflip was more tech than Carson's 1st flip on a cool super manicured feature. Look rider's left on Brendan's hit.
Line originality needs to count for something... not only was carson's line/zone used in multiple years of the past, but he shared it this year too. Sure he got in a couple smooth and large 3's, but the whole thing was vanilla compared to Brendan's fresh line.
  • 1 6
flag ZAPa90 (Oct 18, 2023 at 1:38) (Below Threshold)
 @snomaster: Maybe look at it from the other side - the riders who scored lower than Brandon. Thomas Genon, Emil Johanson, Bienve - their runs were amazing, but it seems that they got really punished for riding too slopestylish and too made up lines. And then there is Kyle Strait run - he doesn't have any technical creeping on brakes section, because he is flying through the air over them Big Grin I actually loved his line, just no bullshit, steepest most straight line down the hill and flying top speed one mega hit after another, amazing run! All these riders ended below Brandon - so judges clearly revarded Brandon for his line. What separated these 3 top runs was that their lines were exciting (not as much as Brandon, but still), they all made some variation of huge tricks, they all went super fast without hesitation, and they all did huge trick on something mega. Zink's backflip - crazy, TVS caveman and mega backflip - crazy, Carson mega 360 - also crazy.
  • 1 0
 @NikolaiB: This!!!
  • 40 8
 Creating a video while driving is just reckless and might speak to his credibility as a judge. Image is everything!
  • 67 37
 You can talk all you want, just look at how the fans voted, your out of touch...
  • 22 55
flag sharpiemtb (Oct 16, 2023 at 11:42) (Below Threshold)
 fans don't know shit
  • 15 3
 You're missing his point... The Fan voted portion does not take into consideration actually being there.. I had a feeling this was what was going on.. The Judges are there with the builders and see every part of their line.. I assumed they had their minds partially made up by event day as to who was was going to be placed where... Probably just need to see day of show what riders actually do on their lines to confirm actual placings...
  • 10 13
 Did you even read this article? Point 1) TV isn't an accurate representation of line difficulty. Point 2) judges have actually ridden it, they're not just couch experts.
  • 7 12
flag bat-fastard (Oct 16, 2023 at 11:48) (Below Threshold)
 @SnowshoeRider4Life: we know plenty, when soo many are voting the same way it tells you something.
  • 26 18
 @bat-fastard: sure it tells you a whole lot of people can be wrong together. See also Donald Trump being chosen for USA president.
  • 5 26
flag bat-fastard (Oct 16, 2023 at 12:05) (Below Threshold)
 @BiNARYBiKE: I'd say its more those who put in sleepy Joe that's wrong, he's an embarrassment and that's coming from someone living with Northern Ireland politics..
  • 3 5
 @bat-fastard: know plenty of information but the right information. tricks make fans into deer staring at a headlight.
  • 6 1
 @bat-fastard: Either way my point stands. And fair enough. I can't believe either one was ever voted in.
  • 5 3
 @BiNARYBiKE: But he didn't have the vote of the majority.
  • 4 8
flag onemanarmy (Oct 16, 2023 at 12:14) (Below Threshold)
 Fans are voting based on the big hits and excitement. Not complete runs. And again... they are not there looking at the runs in person. I've been there.

That's what all those other awards are for and I think they went to the right guy.

But if you think the fans know wtf they're talking about then you haven't been in the PB comment section for long. 99% of these people have never been to Rampage.
  • 9 2
 @SnowshoeRider4Life: sorry but over 20 points between zinc and straight for much of a muchness on something that's been done before, then the shot of the judges going bonkers fist punching during his run. Never really any other TV coverage of them. It' just like it was scripted for the broadcast.
  • 6 5
 @bat-fastard: There were tons of clips of Gully going in there and talking to them. LOL!

But they also were well aware of what Zink had planned so it doesn't take a mental giant to figure out that they'd probably be paying extra attention.

No one has ever done what Zink just did. That's the biggest step down backflip of all time. It's bigger than it was when it was wood and it's dirt to dirt now.

And he did a lot of other things Kyle did not do.

Watch the runs again.
  • 7 8
 @onemanarmy: I have it's not 20 points, maybe 10, its 3rd place. He was overscored a mile... Biggest front flip trumps a back flip to me too..
  • 1 11
flag NailsAndTrails (Oct 16, 2023 at 12:43) (Below Threshold)
 @rarerider: if you understand US politics, or geopolitics in general, then you understand why majority shouldn't necessarily matter. Democrat policies rely on taking from those who have, to those who haven't earned. Ergo just import a bunch of foreigners and promise them stuff, magically your vote count goes up
  • 2 1
 @rarerider: irrelevant. My point was simply that a large group of people can all agree and all be wrong. Smile
  • 7 2
 @bat-fastard: I think Cams drop was much higher consequence than the canyon gap. If it wasn't a canyon gap, it would just be a long jump. It's not like any of the invited athletes wouldn't make it at least across that gap. Like claw said, it has a "chill" run in, with good sight lines, and lots of room to modulate speed. Most importantly, it can be over jumped with a good chance of walking away from it (as Bienve proved). If you went long, short, or got blown sideways/offline by the wind on Cams drop, you would at the very least written off with a massive injury. Not to mention that drop was almost as long as the canyon gap, plus with a massive drop, and more exposure to the wind. I'm genuinely surprised Cam didn't win best trick there. Front flip with a lip vs Flat drop flip is a toss up on the difficulty scale.
  • 2 0
 @bat-fastard: not in the US it doesn’t. Half the country think votes aren’t real or whatever.
  • 1 0
 @bat-fastard: this is the US half the country believes votes don’t mean anything. And how do we know the “fans” arent voting illegally? Fake news.


I’m kidding plz don’t make this a political comment section
  • 3 0
 @leon-forfar: To me Bienve's 3 in a row way is far more that just 1 jump. A 360 into a back flip into front flip the canyon. That was by far the outstanding 10 seconds of rampage for me. Yes his top transfer wasn't much but that's the shape of hill to get to his triple jump line. He nailed each of the 3, spotting landings perfect. If one got out of shape then it was over. As for exposure Brendogs Battleship it's just unreal, I wouldn't even walk across that, if he went over the edge there it really wouldn't be good.
  • 31 0
 Would anyone else partytrain down BRENDOGS line???? I don’t think so,
  • 12 0
 Exactly! I think that sums up this entire thread in one sentence Deaks! Congrats on an epic build. Hope you Olly and Bren are taking solace in all the public support for you fellas. Not the same as some podium cash but the kudus might be worth more in the long run!
  • 9 1
 Dude. This.

Also hard to believe you guys didn't win the diggers award. Building so many new features from scratch on an already feature packed mountain (even having to jump over existing lines). Not to mention the exposure and dangers faced while you were building the battleship (might as well call it the HMS King Charles hehe) and the run in into the canyon gap. #thepeopleschamps
  • 32 8
 I think he’s spot on; if you haven’t seen the terrain in person you really can’t judge it the way they can. But I still think they should change their system and/or criteria. There are plenty of alternative options. Year after year of community uproar is getting old. The negativity isn’t good for anyone.
  • 11 3
 "if you haven’t seen the terrain in person you really can’t judge it the way they can"

Wrong! Get Ben Cathro in to walk each line and we will know exactly what's going on! You know it makes sense!
  • 4 0
 @slimboyjim: I'd argue not Cathro, but instead at least an ex-Rampage competitor, ideally insight from all of the judges so we can understand their viewpoint as well as possible, but that overall style of video would be a great addition to the Rampage media output regardless, as long as it was comprehensive and covered everyone's respective lines!
  • 1 0
 @samdaman1: It was a semi serious joke but I agree - information as to the difficulty of each run would be very helpful (as long as it is presented by an expert)...
  • 28 2
 No way that run deserves a 95. No matter what his buddy(the judge posting this video) says.
  • 4 1
 95 nowadays should be the best freeride mountain + sloopestyle... and he even didnt even trick 2 big drops and 1 step up... just imagine Semenuk on that line... you cant score him 130 now...
  • 4 2
 its not a slope event and unlikely semenuk would be out-sending zink on that line if he did ride it... what is the biggest drop semenuk has flat flipped to date?

Does anyone really want to see technicality of slope tricks winning Rampage vd. full send hanging it out there?
  • 46 24
 Maybe it's the only sport in the world where the "Independent", "None bias" and "Neutral" judges cheer and wave their fists in the air when they see a certain competitors performance! I like rampage for what it is, brave people throwing themselves down a mountain but the judging is a joke. I wonder which one of the American friends will win next year
  • 11 24
flag daweil (Oct 16, 2023 at 12:39) (Below Threshold)
 Did you even read a single sentence of what Darren said
  • 17 3
 Wild to blame the judging on US nationalism when most of the winners and podiums are from Canada...
  • 3 16
flag cuban-b (Oct 16, 2023 at 12:54) (Below Threshold)
 @TopherJones93: hes just upset Gee didnt win
  • 8 1
 Also claw is Canadian..
  • 9 0
 @TopherJones93:
11 Canadian wins
4 USA
1 Spanish
1 French.

From Wikipedia, although it does yet show this years event which was the 4th US win
  • 14 5
 @cypher74: what Wiki doesn't tell you is how many of those winners were friends with their respective judges. How many trips they have been on together, how many beers they have shared and how many rides they have been on. Decades of friendship.

I appreciate it's a small sport and their aren't many individuals who have the experience to sit on that judging panel, but when your judging roster is full of North Americans watching their friends ride bikes and awarding cash prizes, you are always going to struggle to convince the masses they remained impartial and unbiased.
  • 2 0
 @samfr1000: your replying to the wrong person.
  • 4 3
 @cypher74: Look, I would have picked another winner this year, too, but you could just as easily interpret these stats to say that North American riders are just that much better than the rest of the world at this contest as you could interpret it as proof of some kind of supposed bias.

I mean, 30 of the 33 men’s World Cup XC Series titles have gone to Europeans, three times to North Americans. Is there some kind of implicit bias in that, or might it be that the Swiss and French are just that much better than the rest of the world?

Canadians and Americans started this stuff. Only makes sense they would dominate.
  • 6 1
 @TheR: Canadians and Americans started mountain biking in general, so your logic would apply to XC racing too.

Also, XC racing isn’t a judged event.

While there are rulings and judgements present in XC racing (course departures, interfering with another rider, etc), judging doesn’t largely determine the outcome. Freeride “competitions”, on the other hand, are like more like figure skating in that they’re entirely judged.

And yeah, judge bias is often a topic of discussion in figure skating.
  • 1 3
 @pmhobson: You’re missing the point entirely. Simply listing how many medals each country has won as evidence of biased judging is faulty logic — it proves nothing. On the one hand, it could mean the Canadians are the best big mountain freeriders in the world. Or it could mean there’s massive bias. Or it could mean North Americans are less fatigued in traveling to the site. Or that they’re more pumped to compete in their own backyard. Or any combination of the above and hundreds of other things I might have missed.

There is no logical, objective point you can derive from it other than the breakdown of the medals itself. Yes, it’s a fact that Canadians have won 11 times and that Europeans have only won twice. That’s it. But any other inferences are conjecture, no less subjective than the judging itself. It’s garbage logic.
  • 4 1
 @TheR: I get that the medal count proves nothing. My point is that XC is racing a terrible counter example to prove your point.
  • 2 4
 @pmhobson: I don’t know about that. Eight of the 12 stops on the World Cup this year (most years) were in Europe. Of course, one could say the schedule is biased toward European riders. Or one could deduce the Swiss and the French are just that much better. Kind of the same thing, and both are just weak.
  • 2 2
 @pmhobson: I’m also wondering why the fix would be in for Canadian riders at a contest here in the US. If the fix was in, wouldn’t it favor American riders?
  • 1 1
 Judging is never not biased. In education a majority of tests don't evaluate knowledge, but some convolution of test taking skills, knowledge, and how you feel on a given day. In F1 it is largely biased by the car. And I think that Rampage is no different. Accessibility plays a role for sure, just like how the UCI and EWS don't have nearly as many Americans. There is probably a small community that they can pick the judges from. I think the fact that they do have criteria that they can sight is already a good start. It can always be BS, though. I think the only way out of that would be moving to a non competitive format...
  • 2 2
 @pmhobson: Sorry but the US only started making commercial mountain bikes. People have been riding up and down mountains and racing for many years previous and the first air suspension bicycle was patented by Archibald Sharp around 1900. Prior to that in 1888 the full suspension mountain bike was designed in the uk and released as the Whippet. Based on your theory the British should be the best in the world at bike design and the modern game of golf which we are generally crap at and many other sports that we started ha, ha.
  • 25 5
 I can absolutely see what a tough job it must be to judge such an event. But there are a few dodgy points in his statement.
Firstly, the judges watch the runs on a computer screen just like every body else. Secondly, you can't on one hand suggest that it's a freeride event but then go on to explain how actually the freeride element isn't really important. Thirdly, he has done an excellent job of explaining exactly why Brendan should have won, not why he didn't.
I don't really like the tone in his statements; he is very demeaning to the audience. He repeatedly sounds angry that the audience has a different opinion to the judges, for instance suggesting that the audience can't possibly have a valid opinion because they watch on a computer screen (which like I said, the judges also do) or that people that haven't ridden rampage can't possibly know anything about it.
Well here's a thought. If the audience isn't allowed an opinion, don't televise the event.
  • 4 2
 In the pre-show ramble they said how the judges would have all special views and cameras to ensure they saw everything, yet every time I saw inside the ‘judges cave’ they were just viewing the same as us, even up to the point that they were appearing on their own monitors.

Now I switched off after they gave TVS 89 for his first run and haven’t watched the replay so did anyone actually see any evidence of these special judge only views when we had shots from inside the cave?
  • 9 11
 Yes, they are watching the live event on a screen, but the judges WALKED AND MEASURED everyone's lines in person prior to the event. Not to mention they have all ridden the terrain. They know exactly what everyone is hitting, and the scale/ exposure involved. I would probably be angry too if I were the Claw. Imagine being an actual legend of freeride who has competed multiple times at Rampage, including in the very zone they held the event in this year, and walking everyones lines with a tape measure to see what everyone is doing and how gnarly each line is, and being told every year by a bunch of people that wouldn't even hit the smallest Rampage feature watching the event from their couch that he/ the judges are basically incompetent of ranking their peers and that they know less than we do.
  • 5 6
 @leon-forfar: You should have stopped using caps lock by year 2.
  • 2 4
 @JoshCB: Hey that's a great comeback. It's not like my whole message was caps-locked. I don't think you can italicize or underline on pinkbike, so caps it was. It's an important point that was overlooked in your criticism and it nullifies your first point.
  • 43 22
 So, what I'm reading is, "We have reasons, and unless you're us you won't understand. So just trust us".

Not remotely good enough.
  • 14 12
 Not really. He very clearly explains what went into their reasoning. Really thinking you didn't read a damned thing.
  • 12 4
 More like ''We we're physically there and we have actual experience riding rampage and unless you're us you won't understand. So just trust us''
  • 2 10
flag cuban-b (Oct 16, 2023 at 13:51) (Below Threshold)
 you people are insufferable
  • 5 0
 @cuban-b: Alabama lol
  • 19 0
 Brendog: Does a Sui over a canyon to 'nibble off a trick'
Judges: meh

Kyle Strait: Does a Sui on a drop to 'nibble off a trick'
Judges: Take multiple gold medals

Strait has obviously been a deserving winner many times, but the inconsistency here is apparent.
  • 20 2
 This is all bullsh!t. I have been to the venue multiple times and I know it is much crazier when you see it in person. Cam's line was sick for sure but Brendog's was way crazier and he deserves the win.
The judges were all in a shipping container box on a 2D screen judging all of this, yes, they did review the lines in person but that argument can't be made that you have to see it in person. Failure=death should be a major factor. It was not this year!
  • 2 16
flag mi-bike (Oct 16, 2023 at 22:51) (Below Threshold)
 Did you miss the part where the claw pointed out brendog did a sui over the canyon? Everyone know that nibbling off an easy trick like that just doesn't score. I mean, what other explanation do you need to understand his line didn't stack up with the best of 'm. Sheeez
  • 19 2
 Everyone is only human but basically all I heard was the judges are right and your little opinions aren't really relevant. Seems like if you aren't in the club you don't get rewarded. I'm not a fanboy of any of these guys, well maybe Kyle because come on, but Brendogs run definitely deserved better than 4th for risk and creating new dangerous lines not tested before. It's all deadly in the end but regardless of whether you are there or not we all have eyes and our own opinions.
  • 62 44
 Well done berrecloth! you've got a tough job as a rampage judge but I think you guys did well.
  • 23 14
 Simp
  • 26 9
 If you ever find yourself filming a video of you talking when in a truck you should stop before you start because you already lost.
  • 3 1
 So that's what happened to Brendog..
  • 3 1
 Thank you, @Tacodip420. Thank you.
  • 18 1
 If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. No, wait, it really isn't, you will have to trust me on it.
  • 15 0
 I want to hear what the riders thought. Who had best run, best trick. Just like Darkfest. If I can’t be there in person I want to know what the riders are thinking. Brendog described the battleship as the scariest thing he’s ever ridden. But judges saying if it was in a forest it would be lame. But it isn’t in a forest! That’s sort of the whole point. Put trees around Carson and TVS line and how much less gnar does it look? And even in a forest a 70ft canyon gap front flip is still absolutely ridiculous.
  • 18 0
 "....also Zink is our mate so we just inflated his score cos we could and there is nothing you can do about it"
  • 17 1
 i don't know much about how to score this kind of event, but the judges cheering when Zink finished his run was all i needed to see in regard to forming an opinion on the bias of the judges.
  • 16 2
 This insight is amazing. Ppl would really apreciate this literaure for each run, so why keep it off the record?

Is something really there is a demand to be understood, if you shut the door then dont get surprised: lack information+passion+frustration= BOOM.
  • 30 1
 also its time to stop owning lines... Here all the mtb family we share our trailbuilding... why not the top in our sport?
  • 23 3
 @PauRexs: I actually agree with line "ownership" being very lame. Would love to see a different approach.
  • 13 1
 @brianpark: so Kyle and Zinc been owning the best line of the mountain that gives you the highest amount of points... who says other riders can t ride it even better?... would be cool riders to be enforced to ride 2 lines... his own an some one elses... that would make it much fair...
  • 17 1
 @brianpark: this is a much bigger problem than the judging IMO. It's clearly unfair to new riders, and the line-choosing process is totally opaque to the viewers.
  • 8 7
 @brianpark I'm actually quite surprised that you feel that way after being up there and after watching the event for years.

Think about it this way.... you get X amount of bags. You invest a huge chunk of your bags into a special hit that's key to your line. Someone else is like... he lemme get that. Meanwhile they've been using their bags all over their line and you are not using it. That gives them a massive advantage.

Guys negotiate line sharing and bag usage all the time.

Where you choose to ride, how you use your bags, where you spend your time digging, who's lines and what parts of their lines you share... it's all part of the event. Without it, you might as well build one line and say... have at it. Best man wins. Then you have a Slopestyle event again.

Choices you make make all the difference in the world.

Example. Emil vs Talus

This isn't a Slopestyle course. These guys are required to bring their own teams, build their own lines, use their time and their bags to the best of their abilities. It's really as simple of... want to ride.... get a shovel.

I 100% support owning lines.
  • 3 0
 @andrewbmxmtb: Problem is that if the main 'straight down' line is the best scoring line in a points based competition then everyone will do the same line. One of the great things about Rampage is seeing different riders interpretations and line choices.
I think the only fair thing to do is either move to a new location each year so everyone starts afresh, or maybe even say that if you are using a line from a previous year then it must be open to other riders... But in doing that might you lose some of the creativity we saw this year? My favourite thing about Brendogs line was it took in 2 crazy features that could kill you, that others hadn't even considered. It does feel unfair that he didn't score higher to me, even after the explanation above.
  • 22 1
 @onemanarmy: I’ve just seen lots of… I hesitate to call it bullying but, verging on bullying over the years when certain riders want to go one way with their line, and some OGs are like “f*ck that, we are putting a landing there, get bent.”

It used to be way worse with qualifying and then finals. But still, it’s a fragile peace out there. I don’t really have a solution, but I don’t love the status who.
  • 1 0
 @brianpark: Can see that. LOL! Unfortunately.
  • 6 0
 @brianpark: Yeah that seems like the biggest factor for how people will score. Especially showing up to an established venue as a newcomer and dealing with the fact with all the best lines already taken. There's practically a ceiling on how high your score can be. I gotta imagine there's some real competition and aggression over who gets to have those best lines even at a new venue too
  • 1 1
 @bikesandfun: Turk... 5th...
  • 2 0
 @onemanarmy: Idk the details of where his line went, but whether somebody will give you permission to use parts of their line matters a lot too. If you're friends with a current or past competitor and they let you use parts of their line then that could really open up your options
  • 1 1
 @brianpark: which maybe brings us to another elephant in the room... when is it time for the old guard to step aside and let the young talent in? As much as I love to watch Semenuk and Rheeder, I was pleased they weren't there in a way. They deserve respect for passing the torch. There's so much talent out there.

Yeah, Brendog got robbed, but I'm actually really happy to see Zink win, especially if it means he can let go now. Love Strait too but maybe it's time. Sorghe - come on dude, do you really need more trophies?
  • 14 0
 Fair play for sticking his neck out, but from the comfort of my armchair it just seems like a votes for mates doing the same things on 10 year old features (still f####ng nuts). I'm not sure how much of a s##t Bienve and Brendog give, but it's probably some as they came to ride & win, but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't bother again.
  • 16 2
 Darren, I'm sure you've ridden many of those lines, but I don't imagine you ever rode something like the Battleship. This is where a tape-measure mindset gets you lost. If someone told you to stand on one leg for 60 seconds or they'll blow your brains out, it magically gets very difficult to do.
  • 14 0
 You can't understand bla bla bullshit...there's Million of gopros ans building Videos...the scoring was Shit, when you must talk after the Event about it, is a big sign of it. Bearclaw says we're all not Legend enough, is a good Football Player a good Trainer ? Is a Rider angood judge ?
  • 15 1
 Nice summary from the Claw. Great that he has completely contradicted himself in everything he said wrt to lower down the hill, smoothness of the landing, braking before a feature, size of the landing. Then he tries to back up the zink line of a 60ft flip which is a very long way from Toms 120ft flip, which is the biggest in history if Zink and his pals like it or not!
  • 15 1
 I’m more annoyed after reading this than I was at the time. Arrogant and condescending, painting a picture of an inner circle that we, and even some of the competitors, are not worthy of. I have the utmost respect for all who take past in Rampage, past and present, but when thousands of spectators (Red Bulls life blood) are disappointed with the results, the judging criteria should be looked into, not justified. It’s hard being objective “judging” any sport/competition, I get it. Going forwards it would be a great help if everyone, judges, riders, dig crews, commentators and fans understood how the runs will be judged, upfront. That way we can all become experts beforehand and agree with, or at least understand the results. For the benefit of those who can’t attend the spectacle in person, the commentators should guide us through the event, explaining why one feature is harder than another and why some tricks score higher than others. There will always the partisan and you can’t please alls the fans all the time, but the judges also need to get onboard with popular opinion and break down this them and us. See you all next year.
  • 14 0
 Could the scores for the line be released at the start, or when they drop in? I.e. we would know if someone was on a 5 point line or a 10 point line etc.
  • 13 1
 Why don’t the judges publish their workings? And who even were the judges this year? I could find nothing online giving any of this information. Needs more transparency - it’s not some sort of mates’ race but it’s judged like it is.
  • 1 0
 Judges - Kyle Jameson, Greg Watts, Darren Berrecloth, Randy Spangler and Josh Bender
  • 1 2
 The judges were all shown on the broadcast.
  • 4 0
 Transparency has never made people happy either. It probably just fuels the fire. I agree with you but it’s not going to change anyone’s opinions.
  • 15 0
 Just saw the runs again. Still don’t understand how brendog was’t at least 2nd.
  • 23 12
 Nevermind Brendog. Bienve got robbed!

While I do agree it's nearly impossible to judge each run comparatively in a way that does each of them justice, the part that stood out to me as a GLARING issue with the scores was that three riders (Bienve, Boggs, and Brandt) all did the same run, only MUCH cleaner the second time, yet only received a ~.5 increase in scoring. That tells me the objectivity trick to trick is clearly not accurate, as a noticeable improvement on the same technical run should merit a notice improvement in scoring, as well. Otherwise, what is the point of a second run (assuming you finished the first)? Are riders expected to assume more risk and totally reinvent themselves on massive features that took weeks to prepare? That part did not make any sense to me.
  • 2 4
 Fair point but the first thing you’re going to want to do is get rid of that word “objectively”. There’s nothing objective about it, try as they might. That’s part of why it’s like this every year. Everyone has their own idea of what was best.
  • 7 7
 Did you read ? Bienve's entire top run was empty. He went 10% on the top part and 150% on the second. Some other guys went 100% the whole run thats all
  • 4 0
 @BiNARYBiKE: When you have a previous score, it becomes more object on the second run. You are comparing an apple to an apple, not an orange (another rider). If there is no objectivity in such a comparison, there is no standard from which to judge, at all.
  • 1 1
 @Matturalistic: I hear you there. But I disagree that you would see a cleaner run make a significant jump in score. Maybe more than .5 but to really move the needle you're going to have to do something more.
  • 6 5
 @Matturalistic: They've said multiple times that the actual number isn't the important bit. it's the order of them that matters. It's why Zinks run scored so highly; to allow room for people to squeeze in between him and second place.

Bienves run was very cool, but like claw said, the top was the chillest way down and he rode it slowly, and the bottom was also not very heavy. Take out the canyon fronty, and it was an "average" rampage run at best. I'm surprised the canyon fronty won best trick over cams flip as well. Yes, if you fall in the middle you die (which wouldn't happen with this level of athlete), but at the end of the day, it's a "straight forward jump" that is long. As we saw, you can send it to flat and walk away from it. It was definitely a safer move than flipping Cam's step down, which I might add was almost as long, and obviously had a drop as well. If Cam cased, or went long, or was blown a bit sideways off of that drop, he would have been donesville.
  • 4 0
 @Mouette230: that’s means he rocked out a 160% run? f*ck that’s a win.
  • 1 0
 @Mouette230: I would have thought the change of tone in my grammar would have made the sarcasm apparent...
  • 6 2
 @blueH2Oj: no friend, weighted average. (50%*10%)+(50%*150%)=80%
And no, I'm not fun at parties
  • 2 0
 @HughBonero: you should have started your comment with “actually”
  • 2 0
 @HughBonero: 100%, not 10%.
Me not fun either
  • 22 11
 So many stupid comments today. Things like "red bull events are biased". Did you check the sponsor of the winners? Another "great comment". "Zink Sorge and Strait shouldn't be invited". Seriously? What kind of drugs are kids using these days? Insane comments for sure. In the end of the day, nothing better than having actual ex competitors doing the judging. They know the tricks, the exposure, the terrain, they are there (how many times do we have to say that cameras don't do justice?). Anyway. I also would like to see bien and brendog getting higher scores but I believe the work the judges did was great. They were there and had a lot of info at their hands.
  • 13 2
 Cam Zink can keep the 95 points, he earned those. What I would like to know is what did Storch do to earn 0,34 points more than Fairclough and what TVS do to earn 2,34 more. Especially the 0,34 is interesting in a competition where the lowest top to bottom was 68 and highest 95. For next year, why don't the judges award points based on the line inspection before the actual competition and release them. Then we could see how they score the lines and then it would be up to the execution. If you have a bike park blue line, you'd have to do an Emil Johansson Crankworx winning run. If you have gnarliest freeride line ever, you have to not crash.
  • 9 0
 The idea of having gully as an „explainer“ was a good one. It just wasn’t executed well enough.
Easiest way to decrease frustration about the judging would be to put them on open mics while judging ….
For sure it has some flaws and risks, but I think it would be worth a try
  • 10 1
 I was there and stood on top of many of these features. Cam’s line is burly yes but it did not deserve the score it received. When his score came in the entire venue was left scratching their heads. The biggest head scratcher for me was Kyle Strait's score. How we placed higher than so many other riders is a real mystery to me…. Maybe the “he’s need here since a kid” story is just too good to pass up for Redbull.
  • 8 0
 The scoring system should be more clear during the contest.
A really simple thing to do, to keep the trust between the judges and the viewers, would be to explain the scores as he did on this video... but during the event.
Now you just get points without any justifications. And if the viewer "can't understand in 2D" which jump or cliff is more exposed, it is normal that people start to get suspicious and frustrated.
  • 20 10
 So let me cut it short. Just flip the biggest drop on course and you win Rampage. If you do anything else gnarly or cool they dont care
  • 16 8
 You watched the rest of his run right? Like you saw the nose bonk into a near sheer cliff face shoot needing to control back over the ridge? The on-off rock right before another massive cliff- all while super exposed? That huge drop where he watched his BFF break his back last year right into a huge gap that if even a tiny bit too slow couldn't clear one of, if not the, largest drop on the mountain that he had planned on flat drop flipping? Not saying the judging was right or wrong but what part of his line, in comparison to other riders, was easier or worse ridden? All that and in the trick department he had a knack flip, the biggest flat drop backflip potentially landed in the sport and a three drop. Honestly, Zink wasn't the guy I was cheering for out the gate and Brendog is one of my faves- but Zink's run was insane. In the past I would have agreed as there was a year I feel they gave it to him for one trick... this wasn't it.
  • 12 3
 He's talking shit. Whole competition is a big joke. He's talking about big mountain event. But it is full of slope style features.
The Battleship was not gnarly? That's why only Brendon drove over it.
  • 11 0
 The biggest problem was Cams score was so high it killed the competition. They might as well have given him 100.
  • 11 3
 this sounds like a criminal describing why it was logical and his right to commit said crime.....


you know who never sits in an interrogation and needs to spend 2000 words explaining themselves? innocent people.....


This does nothing but solidify how bogus this judging was.
  • 8 0
 As expected the judges have a scoring rubric they are following to come up with the overall combined score we see. I hope in the future they can expose this detail real time for each rider so that we can better understand what the judges are seeing. Maybe they could also grade each jump/drop/gap including details such as length, height, run in and run out and share this info with us during the broadcast.

Frankly the lack of this type of transparency is what leading to all the questioning IMO.

Well that and #brendoggotrobbed Smile
  • 13 5
 a backflip is just one of those tricks people can throw into any jump. Why reward a backflip so highly? Hell there are 2 kids in my office who can Backflip on an actual trail.... Can they do a Suicide No hander... no

This is in response to claw saying the Sui is just a add on trick.. pfff . over a canyon?
  • 1 6
flag holdandhope (Oct 17, 2023 at 3:30) (Below Threshold)
 Sounds like you can't do either so just shut up.
  • 8 0
 If we look back at a lot of the runs most of them could be podium runs depending on the point of view. Yeah zink had an epic run and probably more overall gnarly line (more drop and steep options on his line choice).
But for entertainment value Brendog and his crew had the best social media coverage. We got an awesome insight into the builds and they are funny as heck. The build was totally unique and dangerous so that was another draw to it. That's what drew me in to watching redbull rampage this year. I didn't really care much about who else was riding but their youtube vlogs got me pretty stoked for it. So whether it deserved a podium or not it was epic entertainment.
So redbull keep the entertainers and senders coming back!
  • 9 1
 So he basically ignores any criticism, says that nobody who hasn't been on location may participate in the discussion, can't explain why Bienve's second run scored exactly the same as his aborted first run, can't explain why the oh so easy canyon gap line scored very well in the past (Kelly, Szymon), somehow wiggles around Brendan and then finishes with "you just gotta trust our expertise".
  • 9 1
 Its subjective, this is the nature of our sport and the same for snowboarding and skateboarding ... this isn't aerial skiing or gymnastics where scores are set for set tricks...

Claw - you are a legend but the fact you needed to make a video about the judging shows ! that's all I'm saying on that!

Zink is a legend, no doubt but I cant help but feel he has put down the same run for the last decade! The backflip was huge and at full speed and the top of the line was super exposed - no questions... BUT - was it really more exposed and dangerous and creative then Brendogs - the simple answer is no it wasn't.

one thing from the judging i agree with is that the slopestyle runs didnt score as high as the big mountain lines.

BUT - you need a mix of both.

If Brendog had laid down a 360 on a big drop then there would be no questions asked IMO.

Next year - please get rid of Tina Dixon - it is soo cringy listening to her interview people - asking them 5 questions and putting words in their mouths is not required - let them talk - let them explain ,dont put words in their mouths - Tina, sorry but i am being honest. And you didn't even interview Brendog which disappointed a lot of us!

I dont agree with 2nd place or 3rd place which is a shame as Carson has huge potential to win it one day.

Another criticism - the venue pretty much looked like a slopestyle course this year on riders left (viewers right) - this isnt right! its a big mountain competition - think natural selection people....
  • 8 0
 How many riders went right past the battleship ...im sorry but lemme see Darren do the battleship he acting like it's a walk in the park ..there's a reason every rider skipped its putting your life on the line sorry can didn't do anything life threatening Brendon did canyon gap and battleship
  • 11 0
 We're all still mad about Kyle Norbraten
  • 7 0
 So look. This is honestly not THAT much different than gymnastics scoring. A bunch of really weird technical considerations that most spectators don't understand. So what the judging does is present a series of required elements, rated levels of difficulties for types of tricks, and then even establishes base scores for given routines and then upps or lowers scores based on the actual execution of those things.

So just pre-rate the runs based on the technical elements, then score the individual runs based on kickers/penalties against the base pre-rated scoring.
  • 8 0
 See my earlier note about slopestyle riders like Semenuk and Rheeder walking away with numerous wins. I wish the judges could just make up their fucking mind as to what type of event it is.
  • 7 0
 You're right, we we weren't there, we aren't riding it, maybe we should just "trust" the judges. But question, how do you think Brendog feels about the score he received? He seems more than qualified to comment, though he didn't have much to say (on the record at least), and sounds like he's not interested in coming back next year, which is a big loss for Rampage to lose someone like him. Seems he generated a lot of interest this year based on his line choice... which is kinda what I thought Rampage was all about, the progression of freeride. Yet, some of the highest ranking riders were doing stuff similar to what we've seen recently, or even 10 years ago (granted I did say similar and not the same).
  • 7 0
 Maybe I'm wrong here, but I think the biggest disparity that wasn't addressed was how Zink's run scored a 95. That's absolutely insane. You're telling me that run was only 5 points away from being perfect?? Not to mention that it was nearly 7 points away from second place? I'm not so upset about the score that Bienve and Brendog received as I am dismayed by seeing Zink get SUCH a high score, and by default taking first with it and completely overshadowing everyone else.
  • 7 0
 OG justified everything but how Cam won. All that blablabla then just say well he did a big back flip. Yay. Thanks for telling us why all the other guys don't deserve it then leave only 1 sentence why Can won. It's rigged. Got it. Thanks. Next
  • 11 4
 "Trust us we know what we are talking about"....

Jamison... Builds wicked trails... Was never even a top tier competitor when he did compete... How many Rampages has he ridden in....
Spangler.... Hasn't been a relevant rider since the Drop In series...
Watts... Riding career was basically sidelined after repetitive injuries... Whens the last time you saw any big mountain riding from him...
Bender.... Hasn't been relevant in almost 25 years... Likely unable to even huck himself off anything anymore just due to being broken so many times...
Claw... Is without question a legend... But even at the height of his career was never more that a third place place contender... on his best day.... Also is well known for having a less than stella and holier-than-thou attitude....

Rampage needs a shakedown... Outside of the riding.... The whole format is old and tired....
  • 3 1
 So who would you suggest as judges? If some guys are too old, and a guy who was a boarder line podium contender also isn’t qualified, then who exactly would you like to see judging the event?

What would your criteria be to make someone qualified to judge?
  • 1 2
 @sino428: Suffice it to say, whatever criteria chosen would eliminate 99.9% of people contributing to this thread. Riders vote would be interesting but it would be hard to put up scores in real time. Which people want - they want to know immediately who is winning, etc. Its expected in such comps.

Perhaps they should put on a "Proving Grounds" for judges, where aspiring judges have to ride a line on the venue, tick off some "standard issue" tricks that have been around for a while. E.g., step down backflips, 360 drops, etc. You know, the stuff that is "easy" these days, since it was done 10 years ago.

You could reduce the focus on the competition... makes it more like a fest event. But then, think of all the entertainment that would be denied to this community -- getting to argue about who should have won, why this or that person got F'd, complaining about judging conspiracies! Why would we want to deprive the community of that, seems like its half the entertainment! Certainly this thread suggests that people really care about who wins as much as if not more than just simply the opportunity to watch some of the gnarliest freeriders in the world fully hanging it out there...
  • 10 1
 Saying the run in to the canyon gap is buff and chill yet two riders crashed heavy on that run in. The Claw is a bit out to lunch.
  • 10 0
 listen...that front flip was bonkers.
  • 10 2
 I really appreciate how The Claw is utilizing the right and left lanes on the freeway. Keep right except to pass - this guy gets it.
  • 13 2
 #brendoggotrobbed
  • 7 1
 I think the issue is that, by his own "just trust me" admission, the judging is apparently subjective. "I think it was better by my own rules, so just trust me" Right, but then explain the reasoning and rules to us, because subjectively and - in that respect - equally, the public feel someone else should have won.
You don't get Olympic spectators booing the judges because the competition rules are laid out very clearly. But do that to Rampage and suddenly it's not Rampage anymore.

You'd almost be better just not having a winner or prize money, it's obviously not financially rewarding enough anyway by the riders own accounts anyway, they're doing it because they want the challenge. Or let the riders decide who won, if it's about perceived difficulty and the spirit of freeride, they themselves will have - if anything - more idea of who should win than judges sat on the arses (and, dare I say it, laurels) in a shed eating pizza
  • 6 0
 I think the main disadvantaged for Brendog was he was one of the early riders to drop and the judges didn't have to many other riders to score against, more so when later riders where crashing etc.

I think they should do INITIAL "closed door" score on first runs till all riders have done first run, then it gives the judges a little lea way to swap/re score a few runs when compare all the first runs together.
Then release results before 2nd run. I think rider will also have better idea what is then needed/judges looking for etc.
  • 8 1
 TVS caveman was shit. He basically was never off his bike compared to semenuk last year, and he had a smooth run out compared to semenuk. Honestly felt he shouldn't have been top 5 at all
  • 8 2
 Sounds a lot like the “trust the experts” weve been hearing everywhere else these days. Decisions so good they need to be imposed. The thing about that is that it doesn’t matter how technical the rationalization is, no one gives a shit if the runs aren’t awesome to the CUSTOMERS. Ie the fans. The problem here is that a bunch of old free riders are ranking these guys based on stuff no one cares about. Zincs run may have been “the best” in their eyes but it was boring. Bienve and Brendon’s runs were gnarly, fast and awesome. Since I care about the things in their runs more than Zincs, I think they should’ve higher. I don’t even remember the runs of 2nd and third. TVS. also boring.
  • 8 1
 All respect and massive respect to the riders and even the judges - but this is a major point. If the judging doesn't compute with what fans on the ground or TV are seeing then something is way off - and that "way off" is just us? Nah.

Cams' back was huge but it was just a pinch more than any of the other backs he or others pulled. Bienve's canyon front is unthinkable - and he did it twice. I'll wager only 2-3 other riders out there would've attempted it, much less a front flip w/ the result being death if failed.

I guess I still dont' see how a canyon front - with that risk - and doing it twice, scores even 1-2 points less than Cams yet-another-backflip but just 10 feet father or deeper. They are both still baller moves - but the canyon front? Next level-next level shit.
  • 6 0
 So regarding risk vs exposure vs uniqueness:

1. Did anyone else do a frontflip or was it only Bienve? Everyone can backflip it seems, but I swear nobody really tosses fronties?
2. Bienves frontflip was mad risky and exposed, despite the polished run up and landing. What if he blew it and bailed out and found himself supermanning 50ft in the air, coming up short, and plummeting into a canyon thats filled with sharp rocks and cliff faces? Where as these guys flipping drops are going to smash themselves into a polished landing like Gees crash.

Im not trying to take away from anyones run but honestly think of that frontflip in great detail, it should have secured podium. We KNOW they have given riders hugely biased scores in the past based on one trick, they did Bienve dirty.

Also, this isnt a slopestyle contest? I like how semenuk blew minds with a slope run and emils slope run was meh to everyone. Semenuk did slope tricks on the lower jumps if I recall, scored high because of it. Perhaps it was baised since nobody had approached rampage like that and now that he has done it emil looks like a clone. Who knows.

No hate on the judges, I get how tough it is, but I feel riders arent always judged fair. Certain stand out tricks done in runs should podium people at times, while others slide by with low key runs and throw tricks every competitor can do and take the W.
  • 6 0
 Brendog got robbed talk about exposure he did the battleship ...did canyon gap and no hander it .. if didn't make the canton gap it would be seriuos injury ..I love fairclough run it felt different compared to everyone.. this guy shouldn't be a judge
  • 8 0
 Judged events suck, period. It sucks even more for these guys risking life and limb.
  • 5 0
 I personally thought Brendog deserved a podium spot but I still really enjoyed the event. Can't wait until next year and having women in the event! Best part anyways is watching riders and teams build lines the week leading up to the event and their first hits.
  • 8 0
 The fact one of the judges has to make a video to explain the bad judging shows just how bad the judging was.
  • 6 1
 It's a good insight, but I think people's frustration has built up over the last few rampages and has boiled over this year. I would think most people agree that zink deserved to be up on the podium at least, but the frustration stems from the fact that Brendan, who has always brought a unique approach to Rampage, essentially gets nothing for his efforts. Bienve's run may have been lacking at the top, but 8th place is criminal.
  • 7 0
 He can say what he wants, but the moment the whole judges room start cellebrating Zink's backflip kind of gives away what is all about.
  • 6 1
 Bren Ollys & Deaks thoughts - www.youtube.com/watch?v=152-PtppT0o

When the competitors are super confused - maybe it needs a rethink

As Deaks said - Would anyone else partytrain down BRENDOGS line???? I don’t think so.
  • 1 1
 Tom and Carson shared the same line, of course it makes sense they would be able to easily do a celebratory train down it. No one would ever just drop straight into any one else's Rampage line without having done any practice hits on it first.
  • 5 0
 .. I just can't get past his contradicting himself several times when talking about the Battleship.. it really sounds like he's making it up as he goes along and secondly as an ex art teacher the '95' mark is one of those marks that you can't really justify but is more of an 'emotional' mark. 'I mean why not 100? well you have to give some room for improvement!' -Smile )
  • 4 0
 Appreciate the insight, but even being there it's likely my opinion would still be the same. It's more the judging format that's the issue. The riders are putting themselves at such great risk that more deserve to come away with something. It also feels like there's less opportunity for riders with more of a downhill background; unless you have a big repertoire of tricks, you're immediately at a disadvantage.
  • 5 0
 For me the judging is senseless if all judges are sitting together in one room an one judge can influence the others. They should sit in separate rooms and judge independently. Cut out the highest and the lowest judgment.
  • 4 0
 To say all that is fine but judging purely on the judges reaction to Zinc's run it seemed a little biased. Being a legend, stomping the same trick from 10 years ago, longevity in the sport is all admirable but it doesn't mean that you should win. All that aside though. Rampage wouldn't happen without Redbull and all the people involved and every single riding who was honored with an invitation to compete is a beast and deserves our thanks, admiration and respect.
  • 5 1
 I think it's FANTASTIC that The Claw did this, and I love his explanation. However, I can't stop guessing where he is when he's doing this, and my guess is The Blue Mountains between La Grande and Pendleton, OR....please tell me. Oh, and I still think Brendog won and Bienve 2nd
  • 2 0
 same, and I came to the same conclusion. definitely the Blue Mountains, coming down into Pendleton during the second half.
  • 9 1
 So he just explained how Brendan should have won.
  • 7 0
 I do appreciate the effort and I still have my right to disagree. But please stop treating your audience as idiots.
  • 5 1
 Dunno who's sending hate-mail, this is just bikes, but its is fully possible to understand DB's comments and partly disagree because we are not any type of statements or even pondering of fan comments or taking any of our comments into consideration (seemingly). To help people understand your point of view - you acknowledge their comments & content, but for all the numerous excellent points made up here - I'm not seeing any acknowledgment or consideration of those points.

Even w/ this statement - which is well done and thoughtful - Cam scoring 15 full points over Bienve: does. not. compute.

The fans spoke up and on PB and Redbull we overwhelmingly - BY FAR - went for Brendog & Bienve by 1000s & 1000's of votes. The contrast is stark - and if its this stark, clearly we're watching entirely different events - judges are watching Rampage version on steriods and we're watching the morning talk show version.

DB is saying that we're not there to see all this - true. But why then were most of the live fans onsite also saying the same thing about Brendog & Bienve? They were there with their exploding eyeballs - they were wrong too?

And talk about manicured - DB said "When you do a bunch of tricks on low slopestyle features you score low" - yet most of the upper center lines Cam & others too have been hugely buffed out over the past 10-15 yrs by the main riders - or at least they look like it and I may be wrong but it visually doesn't look like much natural terrain left there.
  • 5 1
 No way Cam should have won first, his run was awesome but compared to the other riders it’s out dated. If the competition is to crown the best longevity rider ok, I can see it. Seems the criteria needs to be re evaluated.
  • 4 0
 #1 Ramage tickets sold out in seconds so it’s nearly impossible to get tickets to this event.

#2 All judges should be athletes who have ridden the event! How cool would it be for Brandon, Brett, Andreau etc. to be judging!

#3 Brendog got robbed!
  • 6 0
 I mostly come to the comments to see all of the childish and insecure comments from Scott Clownes. The amount of downvotes is hilarious.
  • 7 1
 Well said but 95??? No chance but defo looks like judges really wanna push for slopestyle than freeride by those words Frown
  • 6 3
 Awesome. I love this response and all of the reasoning behind it. I feel like just like the events, the judging is growing every year. I think this type of transparency is awesome. I honestly agree with everything he said and don't have as many issues with the rankings as I usually do. Personally I would have flip flopped Carson and Brendan. I think if Bienve had done more with the top... like Godziek was doing... he easily scores much higher. You could probably argue for 5th if he does a bit more up there. As is, I think if they bumped him up to an 81 and he was in the same slot you'd probably hear a bit less complaining. Seeing his score in the 70's is getting people fired up. I still think there's room for changes in the way it's done. But all in all I thought the event was amazing. Especially when compared to last year.
  • 4 1
 I think the only change I'd make is the part about how they judge the feature, and the trick on that feature, separately. That just doesn't make sense. Take Brendog's sui over the canyon -- doing a trick over that ridiculous feature should have been a points multiplier, if anything, because the risk/skill factor goes WAY up. Actually, now that I'm seeing these words in front of me, I'm realizing that maybe some peoples frustrations are coming from a feeling that some riders had a points multiplier while others didn't... I dunno.
  • 1 0
 It was a points multiplier, Claw didn't say otherwise, he just said the facts which are that if you can do a sui, and do the jump, you can quite easily sui that jump. It's a simple, stock trick on a DH bike and an easy addition for more points on that jump, but not hard enough to score exponentially higher. Especially when you look at the tame sections between the few features on his line
  • 3 0
 Here's an idea: do this ahead of time, as part of the pre-show.

If the judges know the line difficulty before it happens, maybe tell the viewers. Have some kind of metric, a difficulty rating or such, like gymnastics and ice skating and really most all other subjectively judged events, that can help explain why something that might look "easier" is actually really f*cking risky or otherwise really technically hard to perform.

They're too busy trying to maintain the black-box of perceived impartiality of judging, instead of discussing exactly this as part of the event. It doesn't have to be the judges taking about it, if they want to remain faceless and behind the curtain (until people complain about it), but at least relay the info to the hosts to get it to us.
  • 6 0
 Well ... to begin with ... I don't agree that he made the video while driving ...
  • 3 1
 Huge exposure!
  • 1 1
 @mi-bike: hahahahaha! Epic comment
  • 8 2
 I came here to say #brendoggotrobbed
Whew that feels better already! Gonna go ride my bike now
  • 7 1
 I've heard firsthand that this man requires people around him to call him "the claw"
  • 7 1
 @Mugen: Haha yeah I can believe it. I was just waiting for him to refer to himself in the third person. His whole underlying vibe was ‘I’m so great and you fools know nothing’
  • 3 2
 5 foot tall egomaniac with small man’s disease.
  • 6 1
 “I have a framework, you guys don’t understand the framework, you didn’t do the right math” - Darren. “Your framework is wrong.” -Literally everyone else
  • 3 0
 We apreciate your words, thanks for that explication.
For sure is quite different to watch it on TV, and you talking about exposure and risk taking some lines which is fair and logic but: how many riders did you see sending frontflip in that kind of huge canyon jump??
it is a big jump not that difficult itself, but the fact about frontflip that kind of gap I guess should be gnarly enought to get a top5 at least. Many riders could ride exposured trails, but frontflip a canyon gap was the first time here.
BTW, if riding exposed and tight lines is that overscored then is not necessary to build those "easy" jumps at the bottom.
Note for the future, just send it fast on the crest and you will get it.
  • 7 0
 Strait won a Rampage with a Sui... whatever.
  • 3 0
 Release the score for the lines earlier in the week. Just riding down this and clearing the jumps dead sailor gets X score. And rank all riders after first run. Dont release a numeric score until all first runs have been completed.
  • 8 1
 #brendoggotrobbed
#bienvenidogotrobbed
  • 4 0
 "its not about tricks as much as exposure, the battle ship had tons of exposure, brendog did some sick stuff but his tricks were lacking" but then 3rd place had no tricks...

hypocritical
  • 5 2
 Very simple. You needed to be American or Canadian, close friend of the heritage of freeride to win the Rampage. As simple as that. Sorry to say but that is even “reinforced” in Darren’s reply on his last instagram post.
  • 7 1
 just lost all respect for berrecloth. what a stupid way to respond to critisism.
  • 7 0
 Even Zink and Strait would agree Brendog Got Robbed
  • 5 0
 I don’t need to go there to know Brendan’s line was scary. Dillema time. If you had to choose between lines what one would be your last choice. Probaly Brendogs.
  • 4 0
 I might need to rewatch last years rampage but it seems that tvs(2.) did similar but worse run than semenuk(3.) last year and bienve did a similar but better run than godziek(2.) last year. The math is not mathing
  • 5 2
 Judging this event would be a challenge, good on all those involved. I sure as hell couldn't judge the event without watching it for days on end. All the riders are winners in my eyes.
  • 7 0
 Berrecloth was robbed!
  • 15 11
 Given the amount of review and admitted judges collaboration it sounds like they knew who was going to win before it happened
  • 3 1
 Im all for the judges having the exact specs on hieght/length of features but if they are out there evaluating all week then they are subconsciously judging all week. Seems pretty one sided and definitely not even across all riders.

Let the riders judge.
  • 3 1
 Why care? I thought hating on the way it was judged is synonymous with rampage. It grows in strength every year, "so and so got robbed" is as common as "looks like a session" personally I have never cared about the judging, as a fan I love to see the diversity of the runs, each one is special, unique and personal to the athlete, and each rider faces their own adversity and struggle,They are all amazing! As a fan I am proud of all of them and I am pretty certain the judges are too. Please don’t take it to heart.
  • 2 0
 Taking into account everything that Darren wrote, I'm curious if the riders share that insight. I still think that moving forward, scores should be held until everyone has a first run, then take a break, tabulate scores, and provide explanations as to why something is scored. Anyway, still enjoyed the event.
  • 1 0
 I doubt they could comment either way. Be a sponsorship nightmare
  • 7 1
 The audio on the clip is as clear as the judging criteria.
  • 4 1
 In the future they should pre assign jumps drops and tricks with points. The winner that does the highest combination wins. Riders can take any line they want. Takes the subjective aspects and makes them objective.
  • 3 1
 I appreciate him jumping in and giving his insight, but that doesn't change the fact that judging at Rampage needs to be way more transparent, the current format obviously doesn't work. Give riders and fans more input, and make the judging process more comprehensible and transparent. I'll need way more than some thoughts on the fly from a judge to be convinced at this point.
  • 4 2
 Darren's comments about having to be there in person to understand it seems unrealistic- How many more viewers was there than judges ?? Are they all wrong even though they share the same view that the judging was poor ??? doesn't seem feasible..... Also needs to be explained the point disparities - How was Zink's run so much higher than BF ?? And most importantly HOW did Strait beat beat bienvenidogo????? I guess Sui no handers do matter !
  • 6 2
 “I’ve been there and done it and I’m better and more rich than you. just stay seated at home in front of your 15 year old tv, pigeons” - Darren Berrecloth
  • 3 1
 Such good insight and the kind of thing that needs to be included pre-event. That said all riders get robbed because 10k to attend and cover costs is measly considering the risk and the fact that it doesnt even cover Euro riders costs.
  • 7 2
 really struggling to find something to care about with Rampage. Past it's sell by date now.
  • 2 0
 Rampage and other freeride bike events have always been in this too-casual scoring system, and the sport has evolved to require specifics. It's past time to award specific points totals for certain tricks and then a specific style score to go with it. With a clear trick by trick scoring system, anything that deviates stands out like a "Russian judge" type score.
  • 1 0
 "With a clear trick by trick scoring system, anything that deviates stands out like a "Russian judge" type score."

Guess from which nation the judges are coming from?
  • 5 0
 Ah got it. That was a 3-d TV the judges were sitting in front of the entire event.
  • 4 0
 100% taking DB's advice and going next year! then coming home to jump on here and #brendoggotrobbed when / if he returns and doesn't get the deserved result!
  • 3 0
 Onsite fans booed when Bienve scores were revealed so scratch the onsite fan b.s. and where's the explanation why Cam was given a 95? Over explained everyone else's scores. Done watching this clown show.
  • 1 0
 The onsite fans don't get to go up the hill and actually check out the entirety of everyones lines. They're limited to watching from the lowest level which happens to look directly at the Canyon Gap and a live feed screen, so of course they're going to be biased towards what's right in front of them.
  • 4 2
 For people who are hating Claw there and saying Brandon got robbed - here is a vid where you can see Claw standing right there nex to a takeoff when Brandon hit his canyon for the very first time: www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUAsQ2tPt8Y&t=17s
In time 2:35 he is standing right there next to Brandon on runin. And then in time 4:25 he is standing down next to a takeoff, fistpumping and encouraging the man! And later you can see him running around to congratulate him! It is great that judges of this event are legends like Bearclaw and not a clueless people infront of tv who have never even be in this venue! Judges know exactly what riders are going through.They are doing a very hard job and they are doing it great.
  • 3 0
 Everyone talking about Zink and BF and Bienve.... How did Emil get a 7 for the type of run that won last year? Not saying he would have won, but definitely a pretty wild difference in how each was received....
  • 2 0
 Whether you think the judging was on point or not, one thing that was a failure was communicating HOW the event was being judged to the viewers. It's not a slopestyle event, but it wasn't clear that doing fancy tricks on the dirt jumps at the end was kind of useless to the judges, for example.
  • 3 0
 My issue is Zink's 95. It was so erroneously high compared to every other score that my eyes rolled right out of my head. I just felt like they wanted him to win and scored him out of reach so no one could come close.
  • 2 0
 As cool as it was to see Zink "win", IMO it was not judged fairly. There were multiple people that should have scored a victory. Fairclough and Bienve to name a couple. I do understand Claw's reasoning and respect that, but very disappointing.
  • 4 0
 No teaming up on lines, no reusing lines, a new venue where new riders aren't at a disadvantage, and peoples choice decides it. Get rid of the judges and their biases.
  • 2 0
 He's spot on. Watching something on a screen from limited perspectives strips nuance and context. Further, the number of people commenting here who've actually judged an event of this magnitude can probably be counted on one hand with fingers left. Watching it on a screen is not the same as being there, further unless you've sat in a judges chair, there's no way for you to understand the complexity of that role.

IDK what it is about cycling and inflamed opinions but they sure do seem to hand in hand.

Go ahead and downvote me, you know you want that dopamine rush that comes from hitting the neg button and saying "i'll show him". Big Grin
  • 12 10
 This statement just makes a mockery of why we actually watch Rampage, if the camera work doesn’t intact show us what they are riding and the scores a from the judges knowledge of the line instead…???
  • 1 1
 I guess create a camera that gives an accurate perspective ?

Like ... what do you want ?
  • 1 3
 Like I said before it is a subjective event meaning it’s entirely up to the judges. The judges are nobodies they are riders so all the bitching about let the riders judge, congrats they are. That being said everyone in the comments section is welcome to go to Utah ride and train everyday do what it takes to get invited, compete then eventually earn your way into the judges booth. Where you can affect the change to the system you do desire. I guess another way would be boycotting or protesting, starting a competing event judged your way and get the riders to come. Whatever you guys do just don’t stop commenting. My job is boring as f*ck and this is great.
  • 1 0
 I meant aren’t nobodies not are nobodies lol
  • 13 12
 Honestly after watching every run again I have to agree Zink's whole line was the wildest top to bottom and he was so in control! Makes it look easy but insane run. Brendog's was insane, I love Brendog's line but I think a lot of the guys out there could have ridden his line the way he did. It's tough for sure, very tough but Zink's line also had a couple of large drops at top very techy and the granly shoot. If Brendog's line maybe had 1, 2 more hits in the line could have been scored higher. He also didn't go for a second run which means he could have scored a little higher and made podium.
  • 2 1
 Unless all of the riders are going to ride the same line like a normal slopestyle contest it will always be impossible to judge there is just to much variance in all of the lines and to much interpretation from the judges as to what is more challenging than something else. Just accept rampage for what it is a cool spectacle of the highest level of riding with the most risk/reward of any genre.
  • 2 0
 Whilst that's a noble idea and one we can all get behind, the reality is that RB want it to be a competition (and that does make it exciting - how much do people watch Fest as a counter point?). As a competition these guys are taking huge risk (including potential death) for the prizemoney and people are attached to the athletes. That's what drives the upset and thy people have been so vocal.
Yes they'll get exposure through Social Media but I've no doubt that it's much less than we all think it should be for effectively putting your life on the line.
  • 4 0
 THE DOG & his DIGGERS. Proper comedy value and incredible riding. Available at your local bookstore now.
  • 2 1
 Silly to release this. Just stick to your guns and let people moan and complain. You've opened the door to it being even more of a conspiracy and given folks ANOTHER chance to have a round of opinions on it. Everyone will have forgotten this in a month and it really is such a non-issue. We all watched, we all enjoyed the madness, we move on. This is rampage, its always a bitch fest on the judging front.
  • 5 0
 even the judges watching on a "2 demension screen" in a small A$$ Box
  • 1 0
 but DATA
  • 3 2
 Stop judging it, simple solution.

Whatever the prize money is, divide it equally among the riders.

Jam format, no winners, no losers. Everyone just doing it for the love of it.

Best trick, best line, spirit of rampage award (or whatever you want to call it) and any other categories you want to add, all voted for in a poll by the public. No additional money for winning any of these, just the accolade.

People will still watch it, riders will still want to ride. No controversy.
  • 4 0
 I know that Cam Zink runs really well but how can he get 95 points, compared with others
  • 4 0
 Controversy? At Rampage? No... never... I've NEVER heard of such a thing...
  • 4 0
 I heard he's salty because we all figured out how to say "Faircluff" but he's still answering to "Da Claw."
  • 3 2
 If everyone goes around the battleship that could have done it without affecting their runs and they don't, their scores should be affected. Bren did something NO ONE else that went the same way would do, he also hit a gap NO ONE else would do. Someone who did the same trick 10 years ago is somehow better than tricks/gaps that NO ONE else would do. I don't get it at all. He also did multiple backflips etc. His line overall was the best rampage line and he nailed it. I don't care what anyone says on this, i know what I saw.
  • 3 1
 Has anyone ever witnessed a judged competition where the "Professional" judges are actually cheering in the judging booth for certain riders during the event they are judging? That alone makes a mockery of the event.
  • 3 2
 The problem I have with the statement is that we (the viewers) do not comprehend the big picture because we are looking at the event in 2D on a screen. Well even though the judges have ridden there and walked and viewed the rider's lines prior to the event, aren't they judging in 2D when they look at the screen? Basically looking at the same camera views and angles as the audience. Just saying.
  • 4 0
 they basically know who is going to win before the runs go down, based on the gossip of who is doing what and scoping the lines themselves. theyre just waiting to see who actually does what they expect and score them accordingly. its totally wack
  • 1 0
 It's totally different watching a screen after you've already walked the entire hill multiple times looking at every piece of every line for the past week before they do the actual judging...
  • 1 1
 @Joyrode: oh I get that, but you are still judging in 2D. Still the same views as the audience regardless.
  • 1 0
 This should have been released before the event. Now I'm watching it with new eyes and it's more exciting and engaging. Proactive approach. Not reactive. Also dodges a lot of the frustration and disappointment that provokes reactionary videos like this.
  • 2 1
 This should be an easy one to address. Let’s have an annual contest for 6 PB members to actually go to Rampage be escorted around the venue by the actual judges and be the PB commentator’s judges. Their scores get posted alongside the actual judge’s scores so PB readers can compare. Let’s see if the perspective of the average PB reader changes once they’re at the venue and put in their own judging box with all the same access to info that the actual experts have. Sounds like a plan to me.
  • 1 1
 Better than that, require them to ride the easiest line on the venue... if you can't hang, you can't really judge.
  • 4 0
 I don't much care about the scoring, just hope they can get Gully a bigger headset for judge commentary next year!
  • 1 0
 Zink sucks that back flip massive cool but he's so old and the fact he beat 3 of the best runs I've ever seen on a bike doing that lame line I can't watch this stupid event now as brendog was robbed and won't compete again. Reeder and Brandon as done kyle straight sucks and only does rampage to get paid as he's never been a theat.
  • 1 0
 When there are so many discussions going on about the judges maybe it is the wrong time to blame it only on the viewers seeing the event on a 2D-Screen. In fact I saw ALL runs on the same 2D-screen, so the way I compare the runs is the same right... for me Bienve was the winner, but I don't need the judges approval to enjoy my personal winning run ;-)
  • 3 0
 Is there a list of the judges and how the citeria of the scoring breaks down? Just curious how it all works.
  • 6 4
 why do pro riders care about what people say on the internet? both strait and zinc seemed pretty upset about people on the internet saying they are too old to compete lol.
  • 9 0
 Because pro riders are people too.
  • 4 0
 @andrewbmxmtb: They are in essence getting paid for selling bikes and bike paraphernalia. It's their job to be popular and appreciated, hence should care what people say on the internet. The more negativity, the less likely your next contract will be quite as peachy. Gee posted pictures of his bike after the crash, because that's what he was actually there to do. Sell his very own bike! Also, if you're North American, queue the perfect family and obligatory tears after landing your run to top of your heroics. God bless!
  • 1 0
 @vp27: If the contest was based in Europe then i'm sure you'd see all the euro riders' families out there cheering them on too. It just happens to cost a lot of money to fly your whole family out if you live on another continent...
  • 6 2
 wooow, it also suggests that the front flip in the canyon gap was easy.
  • 4 5
 No he didn’t. He said the jump explained why the jump is relatively “safe.”I love how everyone on here knows better than people who have been in rampage and ridden these lines. It’s hilarious.
  • 3 0
 @BiNARYBiKE: everyone? Username checks out.
  • 2 0
 i say they do a claimers run next year. if you can do the winners line and trick combo, you take their spot. apply it to the entire podium.
  • 2 0
 Sounds like the Claw needs some new tires, those suckers are loud.... Judges are judges and there is a reason they're the judges, hence his years of freeriding.
  • 2 0
 Its almost as if the event organizers should share very clearly how the event is being judged, so that riders & fans can understand what they are looking out for.
  • 2 0
 Any guesses on what road he's driving? I think it's I-84 in eastern Oregon, but I could be wrong. The green road signs look American, not Canadian.
  • 4 1
 Maybe they should score it off site watching it on screen then we'll all be on the same page. Genius!
  • 1 1
 if it isn’t objectively “timed (raced) or scored via pts btwn opponents” its not a sport, its an athletic exhibition and will never be as good as an objectively quantified SPORT to an objective finish. Judging just isn’t sporty! Ha!
  • 3 3
 The fact that this article exists is proof that Rampage is stupid and not an actual sport- just like figure skating. Are the athletes amazingly talented? of course. Should the events be scored and winners declared? nope. I literally scroll past everything rampage related as quickly as possible in hopes of skewing some algorithm somewhere into believing that people have stopped paying attention to it. Seems like the only power I have in possibly making it disappear. Why don't you have the clocks chiming in and writing pieces explaining who won the last UCI DH/XCO/XCC event? Maybe someday they will have AI evaluate each feature and assign a difficultly to it, and then another AI evaluate each participants moves and somehow it could score without being a "judge". Anyhow, I am done giving it anymore attention.
  • 3 1
 Coud not agree more. Only unjudged events like chess and checkers are actual sports.
  • 1 0
 "just like figure skating."

There ya go - you win this debate.
  • 6 2
 They just wanted their pal to go out on top. Tricks from 10 years ago...
  • 5 1
 if Brendogs line was so easy you do it?
  • 2 0
 Everything else aside, they could have at least put some effort into a proper write up of the spoken interview. What a horrible article to read.
  • 5 2
 Oh Darren, you should’ve stayed quiet and let the trolls slowly crawl back into their caves.
  • 4 0
 The outcome is what it is - but that doesn't mean it was correct
  • 5 0
 Brendog got robbed.
  • 5 2
 I have zero to add to this great thread but wanted to comment on this to make it even longer
  • 2 0
 2024 UCI calendar has been already released, and I see no pinkbike post about it, I need to share all the rage comments about it with you guys, come on!
  • 2 1
 I think the judges need to tell us what type of event they're judging. I always considered it the ultimate freeride competition but it seems to have become more of a Downhill (Zink) or Slopestyle competition.
  • 5 2
 The very fact that he has to explain himself year after year proves there is something wrong
  • 1 0
 Any event that is "Judged' by humans instead of some other more definitive way to decide a winner will always have controversy. Even with the best intentions there will be bias & different opinions. No way around it.
  • 11 11
 "hey, you're looking from a screen"

They are with hubble telescopes? Or FPV live on the site?

Brendog got robbed. They want to reward the winner, especially after his last salty comments past years.
  • 4 1
 He must be off home to mow the lawn "really neatly" too.
  • 4 5
 It's sad if people criticised the riders, when it's the Judges who I believe are at fault. Someone suggested let the riders vote, then if the judges want to attend, they could serve drinks or food or something they are actually good at.
  • 2 0
 I see he didn't mention the biggest question on everybody's lips - did the Russians bribe the judges?
  • 3 0
 Driving Emigrant Hill and filming!
  • 11 12
 Thanks Darren! That made a lot of sense. I really appreciate your expertise and have loved following your career over the years. A heads up though, your reasoned, thoughtful, well supported and grounded rationale will not go over well here because it deprives a lot of posters of the self-righteous, petty and vapid melodrama that they would otherwise use to feed their opinions and boost their egos. But thank you all the same Smile
  • 2 1
 Sounds like judges reward those athletes that put life and limb on the line. At some point it’s going to backfire and as a community we shouldn’t be endorsing that.
  • 2 2
 Maybe do away with the judges and instead have a live vote system that us public can vote on while watching That would be a true result and not a biased mates club pre planned sh1t show
  • 3 0
 K show of hands who actually read the whole thing?
  • 1 1
 its a transcript of the audio from the video.
  • 6 2
 Unfollowed
  • 6 4
 Who the hell is this Barren Darrecloth guy - maybe if he should STFU and let folks who actually ride score this....
  • 2 0
 A judges track-walk and subsequent features rating would be pretty cool info to have going into the runs.
  • 3 0
 the thought of driving for 12 minutes doing a piece to camera terrifies me
  • 4 1
 last Train was awesome! more rebel runs! put the FREE back in free ride
  • 4 1
 Claw's not sharp anymore eh? Time to retire buds
  • 5 2
 F- this New Judges next year! All I heard is blah blah blah shit.
  • 5 2
 Hey Baron Cloth, Grampage needs a revamp! Let the young guns take over!
  • 2 1
 Jidges should be blind to the course in my opinion. I think all scores would end up higher and scoring tighter. Have them show up on the day of not before.
  • 3 0
 @GillKill22 @kbecker #brendoggotrobbed
  • 1 1
 Greatest of respect to all riders...but...... it's going to get like Formula 1, where it's the same people winning year in, year out...fans are going to turn off. I wonder if it would be a better event without Red Bull?
  • 2 0
 We can’t see what they see on a screen?
They were stuck in a little room watching about 6screens lol
  • 2 0
 At the end of the day, I just want to know how the competitors - the ones out there riding , feel on the results.
  • 2 0
 What should happen is All riders run the same line & the line is not built by the riders.
  • 1 0
 I do think it would be time to get a new round of judges...maybe some euros...maybe Andreu as he's a freeride legend as well as other judges...
  • 1 0
 i would like to see the judges list and their individual ratings for each rider, missing some Europeans in the jury too
  • 2 0
 i've heard that next year it will be figure skating judges
  • 2 0
 the thing is ... why would you ever judge those rides?
  • 5 7
 Ahhhhh the biking world. Filled with a bunch of whiney, entitled children that will bitch and moan at the drop of a hat if they feel like their sport/opinion/identity someway somehow doesn’t exactly align. It goes back to as far as I can remember ie… v-brake and discs, rigid and suspension, wheel size, enduro, carbon and aluminum, and of course Rampage. Here’s something that might upset the whiners, THANK YOU Redbull for putting on a wicked event.
THANK YOU Pinkbike for letting us watch it for free.
THANK YOU Riders for putting yourselves at risk for our enjoyment.
THANK YOU Judges for doing a difficult job.
  • 4 2
 Well that cleared up just about nothing #brendoggotrobbed
  • 2 0
 Honestly the scores are so dumb I was just there to get hyped on biking
  • 2 2
 Here, fire all of the judges they are useless, literally let the fans onsite and online decide, they will 10000% do a better job.
  • 3 5
 If the riders are happy with the results then who cares what we think. It’s not about us and our opinions. If the riders believe the judges did a good job then this conversation ends there.
  • 5 8
 I'd rather sui that canyon jump before backflipping Cam's step down feature. The 2nd and 3rd place spots were also justified, especially the caveman into that ridiculous shoot.. Still rather sui the canyon before doing the caveman lol
  • 2 0
 I love lamp
  • 2 3
 The best part of this video is that hes politely cruising in the right hand lane like a friggin gentlemen, not clogging up the Left lane like a pylon
  • 3 2
 When is the claw gonna drop another edit?
  • 6 9
 This was a very high level analysis Darren B - good job. The level of detail your judges used for the event should not be scrutinized. Personally I would ignore all the social media comments. You can talk the talk because you have walked the walk Ie Credentials ! Which NONE OF THESE KEYBOARD COWBOYS SEEM TO HAVE.... jmho !! In regards to the event WOW - the 2023 athletes were dialed and went for it !
  • 2 1
 Great explanation - got to get some tickets to Rampage now.
  • 2 1
 Smells a lot like figure skating
  • 1 0
 Long live Sorge 2017. A truly spiritual run.
  • 2 1
 2023 shows that Mountain bikers don’t like anything.
  • 1 0
 The jusging was shit, own it.
  • 1 0
 Strait 0 tricks 73 points
Aguado best trick 78 points
Wtf?
  • 3 3
 From time to time, we all need to dispatch the
“WAM-bulance”
  • 1 2
 Maybe move to 3 day 'sessions' type event.
Riders judge.
Don't need the huge live production(hello).
  • 3 3
 Thanks for the info on your end of thing bearclaw. ;@)
  • 2 2
 That was great and I appreciate it.
  • 1 0
 Trust the science.
  • 2 4
 Just like all sport, you have to accept the judges are right; even when they are wrong.
  • 3 5
 Thanks so much Claw! These details are good for the world.
  • 2 4
 Nice insight. Thanks for sharing Darren.
  • 2 5
 The Claw is the law
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